Creem has a book coming out...

This is sitting on my desk as I write (the library I work at just got it in)

Published by Harper Collings, "written" by Robert Matheu and Brian J. Bowe.

It looks pretty cool, tons of photos. It begins with a Cream article from Dec. 1969 and ends with a piece on Firehose from July 1988.

It brings me back to a time when I used to rush to the mailbox to see if the new issue arrived.

"I cannot find any links online to information on who is publishing it, when it's coming out"

er, uh, um:

http://www.amazon.com/CREEM-Americas-Only-Rock-Magazine/dp/0061374563

I immediately bought that book on that link, thanks Scott.

Reading the Creem review of Fear (written by Gregg Turner!) and the letters in response to their Black Flag review were some of my very first exposures to punk rock.

I am excited.

Thanks, Scott. I am at the day job and didn't check too thoroughly.

This should really be one of those complete-archives-on-DVD things.

Can't wait to see what's here. I have a ton of old CREEMs and while the writing is surprisingly consistent -- shit, they were making it up as they went along back then -- what really put the mag over the top was the context, the way the pictures, headlines and general attitude came together to forge an identity and community.

I've always found it ironic that popular wisdom says the OLD Creem was better than the NEW (and by this I mean early '70s Bangs era CREEM vs. late '70s-mid'80s -- not that other CREEM thing that appeared later) when in all actuality most people never even saw the Bangs-era CREEM and more than likely got hip to it sometime in the late 70s when their circulation expanded well beyond Detroit. If anything, the '80s guys who ran it -- DiMartino, Kordosh, Johnson, Holdship -- probably had more impact on most CREEM fans that the hallowed names of Bangs, Marsh...the mag didn't even have the humorous captions in the early '70s...

That all said, it was a great magazine and its attitude is missed these days. I remember when SPIN first hit and it was like the anti-CREEM. Whereas CREEM always seemed to take its position as the anti-Rolling Stone by snickering at seriousness and considering itself "cool" only by accepting that it was NOT cool, SPIN wanted to tell you how cool it was right from the start. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG...

and now we have mags in the US like PASTE, AP, MAGNET, HARP....that don't seem to have any clue at all...well, occasionally PASTE and Magnet have a few decent pieces, but the rest is pathetic.

God DAMN do I need to get this. I read CREEM near-religiously circa 1977-78 when I was like 13-14 and it's probably no exaggeration to say that it warped me for life, mostly by snickering at seriousness and considering itself "cool" only by accepting that it was NOT cool [per smurfherder above].

This should really be one of those complete-archives-on-DVD things.

OTMFM x Infinity!!!!!!

I'm in total agreement with the above posts by smufherder and xero—the main diff. for me being that I started reading in 1979 and kept up until the oh-so-bitter end. Hell, Creem is probably the main fucking reason why I'm on here in the first place; first place I ever encountered the works of xgau and xheddy, too. Respect, muthahuffers!

CREEM gave national exposure to Xgau's VV column, ran the off the wall (and topic) screeds of Rick Johnson and R. Meltzer, gave John Mendelssohn room to write the Eleganza! column, Nick Tosches wrote the chapters that became Unsung Heroes of Rock n' Roll, Dave Marsh started fellating Springsteen...James Wolcott, Jaan Unhelszki, Ben Edmonds,Simon Frith, Vince Aletti, Richard Riegel, Robot A. Hull, Richard C. Walls, Billy Altman, Joe Fernbacher, Dave DiMartino, Sylvie Simmons, J. Kordosh (anyone remember CREEM metal? Hilarious, with hate mail everywhere)...

what bugs me about mags today is how the same people show up in them and it seems like they're all part of a party line. When I first saw Revolver (before it became a metal mag) and read the usual spewl about "American Mojo," I knew it would suck if the SAME PEOPLE wrote the mag that were already in all the other major mags. You can't do an American Mojo with Anthony DeCurtis and Ann Powers writing your cover stories. You get Rolling Stone.

While I know plenty of folks here like Chuck's days at the VV, I found it predictable in its way. I'm not saying I know how to rectify this. Maybe we're past that point. Back then, the VV had its turf planned out. I'm not sure a mag as open as CREEM -- and as devoutly silly -- could survive. Publicists and management would be less likely to grant access. There would be complaints that the music wasn't being respected. It's a tough spot.

Glad to see so many remember it. It shaped me (for better and worse).

Chuck's days at the VV

Ha, well, for whatever it's worth, my days in Creem (and writing about half of some of those Creem Metal issues) came first. (And I'd never heard of this book before, though I'm guessing the Beasties story complained about above might be my cover story from 1987, since it's long been fairly prominent on the Creemwebsite. Bugs me if that's the one that they may have picked from me, though, since it's already been anthologized in at least two other books; one of these years I really should figure out a way to compile other stuff I wrote, especially back then in the pre-Internets era before everything started to suck so much ass.)

("complained about in the Amazon link above," I guess I should have said.)

And I'm not saying it was just the Internets that made everything suck ass. As Smufherder said, the coming of Spin (which could nonetheless be really good, sometimes, and which I wrote plenty for too) was one major turning point on the route to people just not getting it. But then so, maybe, was the coming of MTV a few years before, and the coming of Entertainment Weekly a few years later, I think. (E.g.: the stupid anal compulsiveness and sycophantic industry symbiosis where all music has to be reviewed in time for its release date or whatever.) (Or wait, did EW come before Spin? I'm not really sure. And I wrote for that magazine plenty, too. So I'm not letting myself off the hook by any means. I work at at a trade magazine now, for Crissakes. Just feeling kinda pissed off about it all at the moment.)

I thought Rolling Stone killed rockcrit.

I like Meltzer's take, as it means music/crit died before I was born and I get to be one of those kids in post-apocalyptic movies named after billboards and wearing clothes made out of carmats.

yeah,killed it DEAD...back in '67.

xp

xp (As for magazines now, though, I will say that Decibel definitely has its own devoutly silly moments. Though musically it's obviously nowhere as open as Creem or even Creem Metal were. And it doesn't risk making readers as mad, either -- They got way better letters.)

meltzer's "all bands since '68 suck except for the ones that personally bought me beer" is another good paradigm to swipe.

That's the problem right there, though. I mean Seward and Queen, for instance, really aught to be writing for today's version of what Creem once was. But where the hell is that?

xp

Seward's in Decibel, though! (And he's great there!)

Yeah, sure, but what I'm saying is that he (they) are better than Decibel!

it's a shame that it takes specific genre mags to get anything beyond bland, acceptable prose out there. it's as if to say, sure, it's a metal mag, so we can treat this like we're stupid, but if we were writing about the Boss, well, we can't have that...

just to clarify a little, since it may have come off harsh...re: Chuck at the VV, I just meant that once you're attuned to the writers' taste and style that you can kind of predict where it's going to go. Which is inevitable, and probably unfair to levy at Chuck. If anything affected the section, it was probably the lack of space...a complaint I've heard from editors everywhere. (Or where there is space, there's more "content," as in more "reviews," as in "over 100 reviews!" as if anyone needs that many...

I'd rather a series of strong, differing voices. For ex., when I was listing CREEM writers, I can barely read a word of Simon Frith, but I assume someone enjoys him. Ditto Greil Marcus. That guy seems to be describing completely different records than the ones I'm hearing. Ditto Chuck Eddy. But at least Chuck's jokes are better -- and I actually do believe Chuck hears them the way he says. His brain works differently than mine. No prob -- though I always found it odd that Kogan seemed to hear things similarly, making me wonder if maybe it's like either C&F or me is the one that's colorblind or something.

Possible. I knew a musician who couldn't hear the differences in minor chords and suspended 4ths and 7ths and whatnot. Seemed to hear everything as a major chord. Must be a brain-thing. So in some way he was hearing things WRONG. But then again, it made for interesting interpretations...

http://www.dickdestiny.com/dacapo.jpg

"This year's package of bite-size think pieces about pop music continues the fine tradition of previous editions ... "

"Some of the year's most compelling and informative music journalism.... A welcome read for music fans and journalism buffs."

"Da Capo Best Music Writing has become one of the most eagerly awaited annuals of them all."

"JT LeRoy is the author of the international bestsellers Sarah (being made into a film by Steven Shainberg) and The Heart Is Deceitful Above All Things (film version directed by and starring Asia Argento). His third novel will be out from Viking in 2006."

Two stars.

Except the woman who created Leroy had to---oh well, it's too sad. On a happier note: Gorge isn't bland, xxhuxx isn't bland, skot's not bland as noted above yeah, nor Frank nor Melissa Maerz nor of course Dave Q nor CAROLA DIBBELL (where are you tonight, C.D.? Writing I hope) nor a number of others incl me. Anyway, was just going to say that Richard Riegel says he likes the book fine (his Dead Boys story is in it, so he's not being the objective journalist, but).

So when do all y'all non-blandoids start-up yer own magazine, dammit? Hell, why not crank out a mere internet rag, even? Get one Matos to edit y'all into submission!

I knew a musician who couldn't hear the differences in minor chords and suspended 4ths and 7ths and whatnot. Seemed to hear everything as a major chord. Must be a brain-thing. So in some way he was hearing things WRONG. But then again, it made for interesting interpretations...

you've got to read Musicophilia, the new book by Oliver Sacks, he illuminates this and similiar conditions.

I browsed this at bookstore last week, especially enjoyed the very early Deeetroit/White Panther era shit.

But at the risk of being crass did the contributors get paid anything? didn't think so...it's not the editors fault it's the system but writers get screwed by these reprints, whether it's good ol' Creem or evil Rolling Stone.

thanks for info. will check out Sacks. I'm sure the writers didn't get anything. Every Vet CREEMers I've spoken with didn't get paid that last time th '80s edition went under. I can't imagine they're seeing anything this time. Maybe some of them can get some work out of the deal. Maybe someone will remember their names. They could build a CREEM Memorial Wall in Detroit and we could trash it like Morrison's grave in Paris.

CREEM Memorial Wall in Detroit

Or Walled Lake, more appropriately

Just so long as they include all the photo captions. And the headlines on the letters. "Get Natural, Man" was my favorite. And the Blackie Lawless interview.

The following items have been shipped to you by Amazon.com:
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Amazon.com items (Sold by Amazon.com, LLC):
1 Ramones: It's Alive 1974-1... $14.99 1 $14.99
1 CREEM: America's Only Rock... $19.77 1 $19.77

Shipped via USPS (estimated arrival date: 10-November-2007).

oh yeah. I'll report back soon!

By Cracky, you the greatest! (favorite caption,supposedly quoting my homie, Tommy Shaw)(there could be a favorite captions thread--or save 'em for the Wall?)

"Yeah, sure, but what I'm saying is that he (they) are better than Decibel!"

AHH! No way! I mean, um, thanks for the compliment, but Decibel is plenty good with or without me. And definitely good enough for the likes of me. i wish they paid me more...but that's neither here nor there. They let me do stuff that no other mag would let me do. I think. It's not like I go around asking other mags if I can do stuff. I only wish I had more energy to think up some bright ideas for Decibel. Because they are UP FOR STUFF. You know? They are OPEN TO DISCUSSION. They give people freedom to roam within the confines of a genre mag. Every once in a while I will just throw an idea out there to Albert the editor. Not for me to do. But for someone to do. I'm a big fan of what he is doing. 80's Spin might be the last time I was excited by a non-zine music magazine. Until Decibel. That's a long wait! I think the only way you can approach the Creem thang today is thru niche/genre. Unless you want to put out a bi-annual music "journal" or something. Yeti Mike does something like that very well.

Yeti Mike does something like that very well.

?

Behold:

http://yetipublishing.com/

Uh yeah, Scott, in truth I agree with just about everything you say above. However, the point I'm trying to make is that you couldn't have written your Marooned piece--for instance (which was my favorite piece in the book, btw)--at Decibel. Or anywhere else (probably), for that matter. And I find that to be a kind of sad state of affairs, tbh.

that reminds me, i gotta get that luc sante book that mike has put out. mike is putting my emp conference paper on metal in the next yeti. yeti is great, just in case someone here has never seen/bought a copy. i highly recommend that you do look for/buy a copy.

I second that recommendation.

Thirded. The Sante book is amazing.

Yeah, that looks really interesting, guys--just ordered a bunch of stuff from yeti. Thanks for the heads-up. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for the Sante book to be sent to me by Amazon.

the Sante book is one of my favorite things I've encountered this year, it's just so fucking great. this is off-topic but I also really love <I>OK You Mugs</I>, a collection of essays on film actors Sante and his wife, Melissa Holbrook Pierson, edited a few years ago.

YES this has John Mendelssohn's great article on the 70's Kinks and how they almost ruined his love for Arthur.

I am seriously considering typing in the table of contents for y'all, but it would take me an hour! I'll just give a few examples from the post-76 era:

Album review - Ramones S/T by Gene Sculatti
Aerosmith by Lisa Robinson
Led Zeppelin by Jaan Uhelzski
Inside William S. Burroughs by Jeffery Morgan
Sex Pistols by Patrick Goldstein
Dead Boys by Richard Riegel
The Clash by Dave Dimartino
Pretenders by Susan Whitall
Queen by Rick Johnson

and sadly, xhuxk is right about his Beasties story, it's in there too.

Creem profiles = FLASHBACKS

OMG I am fifteen again.

quote from Russell Mael accompanying a full color 2-page spread of Sparks in their purple passion Model T:

"Once upon a time, there was a time when we didn't suffer from the dumbing down of everything. We hadn't been MTV'ed, American Idol'ed, A&R'ed, MySpace'ed, YouTube'ed, Starbuck'ed, or GAP'ed. We couldn't read what the online community was thinking; we actually had to have our own opinion based on our own opinion.

Alas, where did it all go so wrong?

Once upon a time, there was a time when music and its biz hadn't been industrialized beyond recognition. And CREEM magazine reflected in words and pictures the Old World, hand-crafted, artisanal spirit of another era. Say goodbye to them."

Hahah, beautiful.

am i the only person who owns a copy of that john mendelssohn book/cd that rhino put out years ago? I, Caramba. I don't think I read the whole thing. Such a weird package.

I'll have to ask Richard Riegel for background on that, he's known John a long time, if not tyme. But what's in the book, on the CD? I've got a record by one of the bands he was in, Christopher Milk, title is Some People Will Drink Anything.

God, i loved CREEM as a teen. Highly influential to my state of being then and forevermore. Can't wait to buy the book -- though I really wish the writers/photogs/etc got some sort of royalties off this. Boy Howdy!

I have that Mendelssohn thing as well. Haven't looked at it in years, but from what I remember it's the story of his life and band with music? I don't think I ever listened to the CD, but was amused by the bio...his Kinks Kronikles book is a great quick read if you can find it...i have to find both of them now....

actually that Mendelssohn srticle is about their '83 US tour.

this is really a coffee table book, the full page photos are given as much weight and page space as the texts. Seeing the "Stars And Their Cars" with Billy Gibbons and his horse and carriage left me speechless.

This should really be one of those complete-archives-on-DVD things.

Yeah, absolutely. (But OTOH, FUCK dat! I didn't spend 15+ years and $1500+ acquiring the magazine's entire 1971-88 run for nothing!)

Good lord, man! That's utterly unsane!!!

Got my copy in the mail, today -- Looks great, for the most part, though personally I wish there were way more reviews (maybe even some rock-a-ramas) and and way more letters and way fewer long journalistic profiles of obvious superstar acts. The profiles are generally good, in and of themselves, but I think a lot of them could have been published in pretty much any other magazine -- Issue to issue, Creem's personality, and writers' voices, came out way more elsewhere. I like that the book includes lots of Stars Cars and Creem Dreams (and the great "Creem Profiles," as distinguished from the longer feature profiles) and some Backstage pages, though. That helps. But why not at least a two-page spread of the best letters and a couple pages of the funniest and smartest album reviews ever, made to look like actual pages in the magazine? Journalistic star-interview features sure aren't what's gone by the wayside since Creem died; they're still everywhere.

With my Beasties piece, they seem to have kept all of the original typos and added some new ones, which I find a little aggravating. Word is I'm going to get paid for it, though when and how much seems kind of fuzzy. It will be a mere pittance, either way.

(The only review I've noticed so far is that Sculatti review of the Ramones' debut. There's also what looks like a sentence or two from a negative Rick Johnson Runaways review, followed by a sentence letters-page reply from Joan Jett, followed by a sentence reply in turn from Johnson. Beyond that, the pickings seem pretty slim, if not nonexistant.)

Uh-oh, that's a dealbreaker there, if it they mainly got all those artist profiles (and that's what's such a drag nowadays, features, especially with comfy conversations, that come off like hip press releases, at best, that is) Where is the room for us foot soldier reviewers--just give us half a chance to make our way through fields of salesmanship--and a pittance for supplies (not a call for more freebie-oppotunities, no) Myonga, hate to tell you, but it existed before 1971, I've got a few issues, incl when it was a tabloid.

(although as such things go, it's prob not bad)

I think this thread is talking me out of buying this book, I was hoping for lots of reviews.

Myonga, hate to tell you, but it existed before 1971, I've got a few issues, incl when it was a tabloid.

-- dow

Yep, that's why I specified magazines! :)

I've got a half-dozen or so of the tabloids too, including #2 - minus the Boy Howdy cover, alas.

[Insert "Comic Book Guy" img here]

they mainly got all those artist profiles

Well, there are at least a couple more conceptual thinkpiece-type things: a cool androgyny-rock hall of fame piece from the early '70s, Lester's hardly rare anymore Count Five essay, what looks like a goofy Queen timeline by Rick Johnson. But I don't get the lack of reviews and letters at all, if they're really trying to approximate Creemness. More and more, as the form increasingly dominates rock crit, I hate celebrity profiles on principle. Journalism is part of the picture, but it doesn't have to be the main part.

Meanwhile, I've been talking to some nice folks from rocksbackpages.com about archiving some of my old writing on line, and they seem mainly interested in long interview profiles instead of reviews, too. Sad.

Yeah that really sucks deluxe, and so do most celebrity profiles (let's not flatter them with the "journalism" tag, which implies something more than the subservient, or it should)

Yes, I'm tired of these profile pieces where the "reporter" is in the room with the "artist" and observing them walking past the recording engineer or sitting in a restaurant...as if the publicist didn't set it up. As if the "artist" isn't aware that the red light is on....just give me a fucking Q&A and be done with it -- if it's about getting the information...and if you're interviewing Brian Eno or anyone with a career, that's fine. If it's some kid with one record out and nothing to say, take a picture of him on top of his car and be done with it...

can confirm that this book is like the best fuckin tourvan reading ever

As a young, wet-behind-the-ears fangirl, who wasn't aware of CREEM in all its glory until the bell had well and truly tolled, this book is actually kind of priceless to me.

Reading this forum, I am a little bummed about what seems to be missing (and by the by, the intro said they'd taken typos out...but if that's the case by crikey they sure put plenty back in...I say either keep them as they were, or clean it up fully...it's a little halfassed for what is really kind of a treasure of a book.)

Even if what's collected here may not reflect what everyone remembers of the magazine, it's making a dork like me really really happy. if you ended up in this book (ie Chuck), or if you didn't, you're all heroes to me. Thank you!

I wish I'd read this thread (and the NEW YORK OBSERVER piece) before I bought the book today. Not only is the content kinda eh, the copy-editing is horrid. I'm not talking about the occasional typo or punctuation gaffe; for instance, there are repeated paragraphs in Bukowski's Stones piece. Didn't anyone proof this before it went to press?

There is a Rick Johnson book out there now, too. Rick was one of CREEM's leading men in the '80s. The book contains tons of his reviews from obscure papers from the '70s. Entertaining and true to the CREEM spirit. It's available at Amazon....

Yeah, but it doesn't include Rick's classic "Is Heavy Metal Dead?" piece from Creem's Oct. '79 issue (the first Creem issue I ever read, incidentally).

Scroll down here for a brief sample:

http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com/2007/03/rick-johnson-1950-2006_27.html

Oh, my God. This man is brilliant. This book simply must be mine.

It's always worth it if you can find actual issues for not too much money. The TV and film stuff was also always ace.

Thank you very much for linking to my little tribute to Rick Johnson. I'm glad I could show some of his words to people who obviously care a great deal.

I'm amazed to hear that a book of his writing has been published. Not that he didn't deserve it, of course. I'll have to search for it.

As to the point about the "letters" section not being a major part of the CREEM book, I'm terribly disheartened to hear that. I had TWO published, back in the day, and I sure would have liked to have seen them between hard covers :-)

Jim Sullivan
(Suldog)
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com

http://www.nyobserver.com/2007/no-rock-love-gents-try-creem-each-other

Different people are saying different things about the showdown that took place at the John Varvatos store in SoHo on the night of Nov. 15. What’s definitely true is that it happened while Mr. Varvatos, the men’s clothing designer, was hosting a book party in honor of Creem, the storied Detroit-based music magazine that launched the careers of legendary rock critics like Dave Marsh and Lester Bangs before folding in 1985.

the Creem book is worth it for the photos alone...agreed that the typos are disconcerting...as is the typeface they use for the musician present-day commentaries...(it's that stylized italic font that was all the rage in the early days of desktop publishing)...

good to see the whole "Paul is dead" story laid out...full disclosure: Russ Gibb was my high school English teacher...and he taught well English, in between the Iggy Pop anecdotes...(IIRC, Iggy Pop's dad taught English at our rival high school)...

(Fordson)

*&$#!@ Tractors!

Russ Gibb did teaching stints all around Detroit in those days, and at one time or another had Dave Marsh and Doug Feiger in his classes...(said they were both jackasses)...man, I loved the yarns that dude would spin!...

Marsh's takedown of the second Knack album (for Rolling Stone) is awesome.

No Gibb, no Back Porch Video.

Taking down the Knack's second album. Hmmm, that must have taken all of five minutes to write.

The fite over ownership is sad and somewhat typical.

No Back Porch Video, no New Monkees...

It's always seemed personal with Marsh and Doug Fieger. That second Knack album is incredibly derivative but I still take it over many other albums of the era. Oh, right, Fieger was sexist. Just like the Eagles. And Mick Jagger was what? Stupid Girl, Backstreet Girl, Under My Thumb...I've got no problem with it. Women have every bit as much a justifiable right to write Down With Men songs. All's fair in love and war.

That said, I remember Marsh's review in RS and it was a good one. Didn't it end with him calling himself a man of action and ready to kick Fieger's ass?

A man of action? Was he going to put down that dangerous terrorist, Doug Fieger, for all our benefit?

Marsh:

It isn't just an ownership issue.
The Creem book falsifies the magazine's history; most of the key figures, including me, appear as incidental while a bizarre rewriting favors marginal figures. Jeffrey Morgan, presented as an editor writing a memoir, in fact was a freelancer, who never lived in Michigan or worked in the Creem office.
Matheu skulked around trying to get "Friendly" with me last spring, claiming no ulterior purpose. He never mentioned a book. In the end, never even consulted the people who made the magazine (I suppose, IF he owns the rights, he has the right to do that with work for hire, though it's obviously a dumb move considering who he's dealing with--we're not people who are reluctant to wage a fight to its finish), he didn't clear permissions with freelancers and others whose work Creem owned only on a print and first re-use basis (the first re-use mostly used up long, long ago), the articles are poorly selected...the book is a catastrophe unless you're interested in obliterating the truth. And not only is Matheu remiss, but Harper Collins utter failure to do anything like due diligence is also infuriating. Had they done the least bit of work, all this including the ownership issue would have come clear and what should have happened would have happened: No book by these clowns.
Anyone who has read the briefs of both side would reasonably expect that this is a summary judgment case, not in the current proprietor's favor.
Please do not buy this book. Getting it out of print is the only way to get a good book published. It'll still take years, probably.-- Dave Marsh

Dave Marsh was clearly looking out for all of us with his decision to kick Doug Fieger's ass. If more rock critics would defend their territory maybe music wouldn't be in the shape it's in.

Imagine the better world it would be had Greil Marcus wrestled Mike Reno and Loverboy, if Xgau pulled a knife on Robbie Robertson for his solo album, if anybody would stand up to Fall Out Boy and stop this madness...

It's time to get tough people. I think we can do it. I'm willing to give James Blunt a wedgie to start things off.

you realize that James Blunt has military experience, don't you?

Those who haven't seen the nyobserver.com piece linked above should know that sign-in names in Comments are marked "not verified" (and incl. at least a couple of deadsters), but the ones by "Dave Marsh" and "Sue Whitall" do seem plausible.

oh that's right. Maybe YOU could fight him? I don't run fast enough. Thanks for the heads-up. You may have saved a life.

Doug Fieger's brother could probably handle this one.

Indded, Doug Fieger's brother, Jeff, would have seen Dave in court. Odd, I just went up on PACER -- the public access portal for the US party case index -- and couldn't find the Creem lawsuit. The records may not be on-line or were possibly under a name I wasn't hitting.

you realize that James Blunt has military experience, don't you?

-- henry s, Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:34 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

So does Chuck Eddy!

Fuck Dave Marsh, even if he does have a point here he's been such a clueless boomer-centric jerk for so long that I don't trust his motives one bit. Like HE hasn't attempted to rewrite rock history in his own twisted personal viewpoint? All his lawsuit is doing is making me damn glad I bought the thing already, if only for the photos which as I said before are amazing.

Since Matos xposted the rave for Luc Sante's Kill All Your Darlings, I've read it, re-read it, and hell yeah (ditto Matos' mention of the LS-edited Okay You Mugs, featuring Frank Kogan and many others, re their fave b-movie actors)(well maybe some are a-movie, some z-, but all good)

>>Please do not buy this book. Getting it out of print is the only way >>to get a good book published. It'll still take years, probably.-- Dave >>Marsh

You go, Dave, organize a boycott from a "comments" slot on some feeble news website. Jack it up. [Eyes roll]

Creem's original masters effectively lost control of the mag's intellectual property decades ago. I never signed a contract with it in regards to rights. I doubt if 98 percent of those who wrote for it did. If anyone wants to publish their old Creem stuff on the net, they can -- free and clear, I'd imagine. Perhaps they'd be able to preserve trademarks but as for most of the copy, I hardly think so.

There ain't no Creem in Lexis.

So, other than this, there'll be another book when someone has the desire and effort to contact a bunch of old writers and ask 'em if it would be all right to republish their stuff. That doesn't seem much of an obstacle now that publish on demand is commonplace.

And then, if writers would consent, and a publisher can be found, they'd be free to do whatever they wanted to. And if someone wanted to sue in order to preserve whatever they thought was the true legacy of Creem, it would be an uphill battle.

Since everyone in this case is obviously fairly piss poor in terms of being able to afford swank litigation and the interest of a big deal lawyer...

I'm sure Marsh could afford to wage as long a legal battle as he'd like, actually.

Christ, old Creem writers have put their stuff in Rock's Backpages for years. I have a number of articles from it on my hard drive. As far as I can tell, in terms of reprints into the mainstream, there's almost zero demand for Creem copy.

So if there's a Creem anthology, no matter how Bowdlerized, out -- one can only hope for the best in that it might stir up additional interest.

ah, I didn't read Gorge very carefully before posting that. sorry, I wasn't trying to be flippant about something you're involved with (and I'm not).

Fuck Dave Marsh, even if he does have a point here he's been such a clueless boomer-centric jerk for so long that I don't trust his motives one bit.

Yes, because many a "boomer-centric jerk" loves G-Funk as much as Dave did (does?).

I'm not sure that examples of him listening outside of his box excuse a lifetime of pushing the canon and valorizing the music of his generation above all else. I also don't think it excuses some of his vicious reviews of newer stuff back in the 80's, in the Rolling Stone Record Guide specifically.

Well then, I guess it's just his own damn fault for not having had the good fortune of being born after 1965. (those RS record guides are hilarious, though. I wonder how much, if at all, he still agrees with those, er...judgements?)

"I'm not sure that examples of him listening outside of his box excuse a lifetime of pushing the canon and valorizing the music of his generation above all else."

So, if that's the music he happens to actually like, and he feels that it has more right to 'valorization' than something else, he should have just shut up about it and tried to imagine someone else's tastes, then wrote accordingly?

Yes, because many a "boomer-centric jerk" loves G-Funk as much as Dave did (does?).

He liked G-Funk Railroad! (At least temporarily: E Pluribus Funk made his top ten in '71.)

heh--who doesn't?

the saga continues:

http://www.observer.com/2007/new-creem-retrospective-outrages-magazines-alums?page=0%2C1

I also don't think it excuses some of his vicious reviews of newer stuff back in the 80's, in the Rolling Stone Record Guide specifically.

Yeah, boy, he really gives it to PiL in the Record Guide...five stars for Metal Box, raving about how brilliant it is...there's really no excuse for that, is there?

Re NY Observer interview --

80's Creem wasn't 70's Creem, grumble, John Mellencamp -- curses (!) Yeah, the good old, old days are always better than the just the plain good old days, ain't they? It sucked after [put your name here] left. All downhill after the invention of gunpowder. All classic rock blew after 72 [see also Christgau Seventies record guide]. After 77, all downhill. Duran Duran -- those tallywha-a--a-ckers!! Iggy Stooge -- we covered him first! We invented editing while filled with booze, too! All downhill after invention and adoption of glossy paper! David Lee Roth -- those pantywaists, I woulda never covered him! All downhill after we wrote about Lester Bangs playing the typewriter onstage with J. Geils Band. J. Geils Band! Now Peter Wolf and J were cool dudes, not like John Mellencamp! All downhill after jokey photo ad of Leslie West with pile of hamburgers in front of him! That Leslie, he was sure a funny and edgy guy! Creem became phony Creem the day it went from being really hard to find to where every sap could read it. Fuck the saps!

David Lee Roth and Johnny Cougar killed rock 'n' roll dead...Deader than Lemmy's "Killed by Death" dead...Dead as a doornail dead! You read it here first.

All downhill after Peter Laughner interviewed Rory Gallagher. Those people who came after never had the balls to do shit like that again.

Even more fun and games:

http://rockcritics.com/2007/12/07/bill-holdship-on-creem/

Taking into account the devotion that went into each decade, and the amazing things editors and writers accomplished after their departures,

for christ's sake it was only a magazine. "who could forget that kevin dubrow profile written in esperanto?"

Sara, he may have liked PIL but you should read the X reviews. That's what really gets me about Marsh - not so much the endless trumpeting of "his" music (which by itself would possibly be tolerable), but the truly cruel attacks on perfectly good post-77 bands (check X-Ray Spex review also). It smacks of the type of insecurity personified in "Losing My Edge".

Dave Marsh thinks he invented gunpowder, no surprise. Most people won't take that bet and Bill Holdship writes a better rejoinder.

Mellencamp, when he was Cougar, had a single out on Gulcher -- US Male --in 1978.

See here

Marsh on Pere Ubu in the Red RS Guide: filed not under P but U for Ubu...

"One star -- Dub Housing: Art rock with a new wave face is no less pompous, pretentious or irrelevant because of its claim to association with Johnny Rotten. Anti-rock for anti-rockers. Boo."

I think the University of Texas may have a chair for Mr. Marsh as head of their Faulty Chronological Rock Studies...

"All classic rock blew after 72 [see also Christgau Seventies record guide]."

Huh? Christgau is a huge Steely Dan and Lynyrd Skynyrd fan.

That's just George being Gorge. Grain of salt, etc.

Marsh on Pere Ubu in the Red RS Guide: filed not under P but U for Ubu...

"One star -- Dub Housing: Art rock with a new wave face is no less pompous, pretentious or irrelevant because of its claim to association with Johnny Rotten. Anti-rock for anti-rockers. Boo."

I've seen that, and I love Pere Ubu, and I was somehow able to not completely dismiss Marsh and all he stands for out-of-hand based on it. So his hatred of Pere Ubu and X outweighs his love of PiL and most/all things hip-hop? It's really really easy to paint him as Mr. I-Heart-Roots-Rock-"Authenticity"-And-Nothing-Else, and just as inaccurate.

Marsh from the rockcritics.com link:

To tell you the truth, when I went back and looked at the transition point (mine, not the magazine’s–in ‘73 when I left and everybody else stayed) I noticed only one immediate difference, which was that coverage of black music literally disappeared within three months.

Anyone with access to the older issues know how much truth there is to this? (I've never seen a pre-79 Creem issue myself.)

I wondered about that, too. I don't remember the early Creem covering "black music" all that much in the first place, to be honest (I think P-Funk may have been on the cover once? Though I'm not sure what year... And Marsh's own co-written -- really interesting, by the way -- "Michigan scene" report, reprinted in the book, sure looks pretty darn white to my eyes.) And, at least the late '70s/'80s, there was certainly r&b coverage within the record reviews -- including Xgau's reprinted Consumer Guide and Ken Barnes' (and others') singles columns. But whether those first few years of Creem actually profiled more black artists is something I'm curious about now, too, and I'd be interesting in seeing evidence one way or the other.

I actually did a "black metal" (as in, loud rock by black artists) roundup for Creem Metal in the late '80s; it's not like they were resistant to it. But were the mid '70s (admittedly an amazing time for black pop/funk/soul/disco, which certainly deserved coverage) different? I'm not sure.

(My educated guess is that--as was largely the fashion at, say, rock radio stations at the time-- Creem probably did largely ignore music by black people -- even, I don't know, War or Stevie Wonder or Earth Wind & Fire or maybe even Phil Lynott, though didn't Richard Riegel profile Thin Lizzy once? -- between the early days of disco and the days of Prince. But my real question is how different it was when Marsh was actually there...)

I'm actually putting together a feature now which will explore (as one of many things it will explore) Marsh's claim. My guess is that there was more up-front coverage of black pop in the early years, but that a fair bit of that was of earlier (and not current) stuff--i.e., features on Smokey Robinson (who was on the cover in, I think 1971?) and John Coltrane. I think there were always reviews of black pop records, but my guess is that there were more of them (and more lead ones--i.e., Al Green) in the first few years.

but I doubt that black pop was excised completely--in fact, I know it wasn't--as Marsh claims. Pretty sure P-Funk made the cover in '78 or thereabouts. Also, in the '80s, Michael Jackson and Prince were on the cover.

Well, just going by the covers: Chuck Berry, Smokey Robinson, the Jackson 5, and Jimi Hendrix were all featured during Marsh's reign (I think). So there may well be a lot of truth to what he said about "black music" disappearing from the mag. soon after his departure (insofar as features are concerned at least).

xp with Scott

BTW, I'm really looking forward to what you guys come up with, Scott. Love the Creem coverage on your site thus far.

I do recall Creem's "best" poll's in the Seventies and a snide comment in one of the issues on the Rolling Stones always being named best R&B group.

Unless there's an order of magnitude difference in black column inches with Marsh vs. sans Marsh ... eh. But to do that would call for word counts or some related metric.

Still unanswered is the question as to why no one BUT Matheu has had the gumption and drive to get a Creem book out, there being no shortage of opportunities in our publish-on-demand world. The people who anthologized Rick Johnson did it.

Good question.

BTW, I remember the Stones being nominated as best R&B band well into the '80s. Don't recall any P-Funk nominations, though.

didn't Clarence Clemmons win "Best Saxophonist"?

why no one BUT Matheu has had the gumption and drive to get a Creem book out

substitute "lack of scruples" and "indifference to authors' intellectual property" for "gumption" and "drive"

but Matheu had the gumption and drive to pull together the awesome Sonic's Rendezvous Band box set and for that he gets a lot of slack from me. however he also got the band members' cooperation in that case.

bottom line: I think writers should be paid when their work is re-printed -- even if they don't own their copyrights (which most pulp journalists don't) just as y'know A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE. George if an article you wrote turned up years later in a slick coffee table book, would you just be so thrilled to be included?

IIRC when Creem got sold back in the 80s the first thing the new owner did was welch on all the outstanding debts to writers and photographers. what goes around comes around and around...

Marsh on Pere Ubu in the Red RS Guide: filed not under P but U for Ubu...

my copy of the Blue RS guide has TWO Pere Ubu entries -- the pan by marsh (U) and praise by kurt loder (P)

The poll mentioned above (Stones best r&b, Clarence best sax!) was the readers' poll, not writers: despite reviews of Sonny Rollins, Ornette, Miles, Cecil Taylor, Blue Mitchell etc, the readers kept picking the electric-toohbrush-type fusion (but we should remember that the Stones among others, could *also* win, or place high, for Biggest Disappointment, Most Pathetic, etc., in the same years that they won Best R&B etc). Not so many African-Americans featured after mid-70s, but features shmeatures, and a couple times in the 70s I lived down the street record stores that sold brand new promos for 99 cents, and I've still got a ton of those, mainly of them jazz-r&b-blues, even disco (not so much early rap), based on Creem reviews (incl xpost xgau reprints, and rock-a-rama shorties, but still)

Close -- actually, Marsh is under the U's in the red edition, and Loder under the P's in the blue one.

Mink Deville is in two different places in the blue book, though--with slightly better average scores for the two albums in the M's (from John Milward) than the four albums (including two overlapping ones) in the D's (from Marsh).

that was an xp, obviously.

we should remember that the Stones among others, could *also* win, or place high, for Biggest Disappointment, Most Pathetic, etc., in the same years that they won Best R&B etc).

And also remember that they were a pretty decent r&b band!

(sound of pages flipping)

shit there's no Ubu review by Marsh the blue one! guess I conflated the two. so much for my credibility. gotta admit I consult those old RS guides more often (for obscurities & laughs) than the 1992 one I worked on.

>>George if an article you wrote turned up years later in a slick coffee >>table book, would you just be so thrilled to be included?

As you've mentioned, when Creem went down for the last time they were already on the hook to me for unpaid stuff, as was the case for many.

The idea of Creem, in any form, actually paying for stuff seems quaint. Yes, I'm sure it paid at one time but my experience was that it only paid real real late, if at all.

When an operation with something of a rep of being lashed together with spit and bailing wire ...

Anyway, how many people here joined the Freelancers Settlement civil action suit years ago for intellectual property bundled to Lexis? And are still waiting and waiting and waiting for the endless appeals and extended litigation to be worked through?

Yeah, in theory, it's sure nice to have your intellectual property honored.

In any case, upstream I mentioned this:

--So, other than this, there'll be another book when someone has the desire and effort to contact a bunch of old writers and ask 'em if it would be all right to republish their stuff. That doesn't seem much of an obstacle now that publish on demand is commonplace.

And then, if writers would consent, and a publisher can be found, they'd be free to do whatever they wanted to.
---

From what I understand, CREEM paid better (with exception to that go-round where everyone got stiffed)than a few of the full-color glossy music mags you see on the stands today. And that's BEFORE inflationary concerns.

"the Stones were also a pretty decent r&b band": well yeah, although pretty decent at best by the time P-Funk and Prince and August Darnell and Trick James and Bohannon got it together(though "Miss You" was great), but I just meant that the sudience was never of one mind (and had great categories to work with: I kept meaning to cite some like Most Pathetic in your P&J ballots, xhuxx, but there were too many contenders!)

(ALthough when I saw the Stones in the mid-70s, by which time P-Funk *had* gotten it together, and the Meters were on the same bill as the Stones, at least in Memphis, the Stones were still great)

"I wondered about that, too. I don't remember the early Creem covering "black music" all that much in the first place, to be honest"

Very briefly in 1971, Lee Hildebrand and Gary Von Tersch had a column called "Black 45's" (with a drawing of a hand on a pistol!). Similar to Greg Shaw's "Juke Box Jury" column, where they wrote about then-current R&B singles on the market (lotta Bay Area indie labels, since Hildebrand and Von Tersch were living out that way).

Later on ('72-'74), Vince Aletti (who reviewed a lot of soul records for various rockmags in the '70s) had a recurring column called "Tighten Up." While the column didn't dwell on soul (or even music), soul music itself was prominently featured. Plus, he even had the balls to declare in one column that (approx. quote) "I've been dancing a lot more in the past year, and you cannot dance to 90% of black music." (Can you argue with him? Sir Lord Baltimore and Three Man Army were cool as all hell, but not exactly custom made for the SOUL TRAIN line!)

"I think P-Funk may have been on the cover once? Though I'm not sure what year..."

According to one source I read, Funkadelic graced the cover of an early issue, ca. '70. However, as many issues of Creem as I've read by now, they probably covered P-Funk more in the mid-late '70s (George Clinton was in "Stars Cars"!) than in their most rockist period earlier in the decade.

"And Marsh's own co-written -- really interesting, by the way -- "Michigan scene" report, reprinted in the book, sure looks pretty darn white to my eyes.)"

Also, in the early seventies, Creem had at least one black writer who appeared on a regular basis - Richard Allen Pinkston IV.

"And, at least the late '70s/'80s, there was certainly r&b coverage within the record reviews -- including Xgau's reprinted Consumer Guide and Ken Barnes' (and others') singles columns."

In 1983, Creem actually issued a "Special Edition" magazine called Gold Soul, where they profiled many then-contemporary soul acts like, say, the Gap Band or Atlantic Starr that would never make the "Best R&B Artist" category in Creem's readers polls. (A typical list: the Stones, George Thorogood, Southside Johnny, Graham Parker, Blues Brothers...I'm not a fan of most post-disco soul and even I think that is rather backwards.)

Although the black music coverage did decrease sharply after Marsh left in '75, in the mid-late seventies they actually did do full-length articles on P-Funk, Earth Wind & Fire, and the Commodores, all self-contained bands who were rock-influenced to different extents. The Commodores' article is telling - somebody must have told Lionel Richie right from the gitgo that he was about to be interviewed by America's Only Rock & Roll Magazine, because he relates that he would have loved to have come out the gate doing a hard-rock thing, but the racism towards black rock acts was too strong and just being a funk act with rock overtones seemed to be a better bet. (Rick James had similar thoughts when Creem interviewed him around the time of STREET SONGS, in '81.)

"But whether those first few years of Creem actually profiled more black artists is something I'm curious about now, too, and I'd be interesting in seeing evidence one way or the other."

SEARCH: the 1975 issue where, in the letters section, one irate African-American reader blasts Creem for their patchy black music coverage ("how could a band as camp as the J. Geils Band be voted best R&B band?")

"The poll mentioned above (Stones best r&b, Clarence best sax!) was the readers' poll, not writers: despite reviews of Sonny Rollins, Ornette, Miles, Cecil Taylor, Blue Mitchell etc, the readers kept picking the electric-toohbrush-type fusion"

Ha-ha! Richard C. Walls was the jazz reviewer (as well as TV critic), and even HE was moved to mention that in print. Don't have the exact quote, but he said something like "you should vote for (the album he was reviewing), rather than the usual commercial compromise you guys come up with...I mean, Chuck Mangione in the Best Jazz category in the Creem Readers Poll? Who voted for that, some Clash fan?"

"but I doubt that black pop was excised completely--in fact, I know it wasn't--as Marsh claims. Pretty sure P-Funk made the cover in '78 or thereabouts."

There's an issue from the winter of '78-79 that had Led Zep on the cover for the umpteenth time, but inside was a full-on P-Funk article (by Ed Ward, I think).

"Also, in the '80s, Michael Jackson and Prince were on the cover."

The very last issue of the original Creem had Robert Cray as a cover story (in 1988). But since his audience is white, would he count?

even had the balls to declare in one column that (approx. quote) "I've been dancing a lot more in the past year, and you cannot dance to 90% of black music." (Can you argue with him? Sir Lord Baltimore and Three Man Army were cool as all hell, but not exactly custom made for the SOUL TRAIN line!)

Wait, did he say 90% of "white" music, not "black," then? (If not, I'm not following this == Sir Lord Baltimore and Three Man Army didn't feature any people of color, last time I checked.) (Though at least they had a funkier groove than Iron Maiden or Metallica ever would, several years down the line.)

Oops, my fault - he said "white music!"

Misprint, sorry! :-)

An excerpt from the book about Clive Davis and GTR
http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=12409

And Holdship on the current fight:
http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=12411

http://www.dickdestiny.com/nomorepeassmall.JPG

Daddy, I implore you, please don't read me any more fairy tales about mean Mr. Dave Marsh, other windbags, St. Cough Syrup and that Creem coffee table book!