Canonical Hip-Hop Albums of 1988

EPMD, but I haven't heard the BDK, BDP, or Ultramag albums.

NWA, almost voted Slick Rick

Lame, obvious choice, but the beats on Nation are INSANE.

Can't vote for PE on principle: it's not even my fav PE album. Tempted to vote for Ultra, but Slick Rick is the Ruler.

goddamn this is hard.

"EPMD, but I haven't heard the BDK, BDP, or Ultramag albums."

Crazy.

(That you haven't heard those three records, although EPMD wouldn't be my choice.)

Which is PE (on the principle that it's best record.)

not possible

i kinda wanna vote NWA but there's a fair amount of filler on that compared to Great Adventures or Nation...

but damn EPMD is a great record too, as are all of these....it's pretty amazing for a poll when there's albums like Critical Beatdown and BDP that don't even feel like they're in the running...

Nation, duh.

great adventures

Crazy.

(That you haven't heard those three records, although EPMD wouldn't be my choice.)

-- Alex in SF, Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:53 AM (Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:53 AM) Bookmark Link

Meh. When I was in my rap canon phase I didn't have the internet or any friends similarly into rap canon to swap stuff with, and very limited income, so my exposure to this stuff is a bit limited.

missing:

Mc Lyte - Lyte as a Rock
Biz Markie - Going Off
Run DMC - Tougher Than Leather
Stetsasonic - In Full Gear
Too Short - Life Is...Too Short
Jungle Brothers - Straight Out the Jungle

But for me, probably BAMN anyway.

rev i'd check out the big daddy kane first

yeah im in the same vote as rev, same reasons really too

Meh. When I was in my rap canon phase I didn't have the internet or any friends similarly into rap canon to swap stuff with, and very limited income, so my exposure to this stuff is a bit limited.

The rap canon shouldn't be a phase, guys.

Esp since those albums are light years better than anything we talk about in the ringtone thread

By any Means Necessary > Illmatic

PE. But not by much. Trailing very close behind is def. Ultramagnetic MCs. Then very close behind that EMPD. Then Eric B. and Rakim. The rest contains too much filler to count despite patches of brilliance on each. And Slick Rick's masterpiece is The Ruler's Back.

And where's Jungle Brothers: Straight Out the Jungle?

And, um, The Real Roxanne?

And Road To Riches!

Oh wait that's 89 nevermind.

By any Means Necessary > Illmatic

-- Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, April 10, 2008 5:50 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

no way dogg, it's not even the best BDP album by a long shot!!

i dont think anyone's trying to come in here with gucci mane>nwa whiney

In Control Vol 1 is 88 though!

I'd actually count the EB&R album as the very definition of "too much filler to count despite patches of brilliance". It's def. one of those albums where "Hey, the first three songs are great!" (lots of xps)

No LL album that year. Hmmm. I thought for sure "Walking With a Panther" but no, 89. Kool Moe Dee didn't put out an lp in 88, either. It just seems like they did in my memory.

"By any Means Necessary > Illmatic"

I don't agree with this either.

Not counting the three I haven't heard, Illmatic is better than all of these except for Strictly Business.

I'd actually count the EB&R album as the very definition of "too much filler to count despite patches of brilliance".

Well, the filler is actually filler-plus and hence probably not even true filler. And then there's "Follow the Leader" which is more than just a patch of brilliance. More like communiqué from the gods.

I disagree with the first sentence (nothing after "Lyrics of Fury" really catches my attention) and heartily agree with the second.

err, second and third

not much love for kane huh? that shit is relentless. I'm congenitally averse to nation worship but i got a sinking feeling it's gonna walk. if i had more energy i'd def. mount a campaign for mc lyte's inclusion

The problem with Nation, which obviously a great album in its own right, is that two years later PE totally shat on it.

nwa, slick rick & kane are dopest here

NWA has a LOT of filler on that album.

The filler on Follow the Leader is some of its most interesting stuff, and definitely my most listened to record out of those listed above.

missing:

Mc Lyte - Lyte as a Rock
Biz Markie - Going Off
Run DMC - Tougher Than Leather
Stetsasonic - In Full Gear
Too Short - Life Is...Too Short
Jungle Brothers - Straight Out the Jungle

But for me, probably BAMN anyway.

-- Oilyrags, Thursday, 10 April 2008 17:44 (34 minutes ago)

I thought about the Jungle Brothers one but decided to leave it off as I never really hear much actual talk about it. I kind of wanted to discourage people from sleeping on the true contenders to look cool (like in the hip-hop producers poll a few weeks ago.) I have not heard most of the other albums you listed, and I certainly don't think that I've ever heard them mentioned in the same breath as the ones I included.

Stetsa and JBs are probably worthy contenders for best, but they're all certainly canonical (which is not the same as being great all the way through, of course.)

Personally I think that By All Means... is just filler plus the miracle that is "My Philosophy." But others seem to like it.

didn't biz markie's first album come out in 88? i remember that and Long Live The Kane being like buddy records, the cool guy and his goofy friend. it's called goin' off or something. but yeah, i kinda think this list covers the heavy hitters. you could argue that raisin' hell should be in there maybe, and I like that record a lot more now but at the time i remember thinking it was a real let down, like more of the same old shit from them when pe and jb's and shit were more interesting - even follow the leader seemed like more of a step forawrd than raising hell soundwise even though eric b & rakim weren't super new then either. anyway, i'm voting PE but it's a tough call. good year.

Ultramagnetic vs. BDK for me. Prob gonna vote Ultramagnetic.

Too Short - Life Is...Too Short

^^^^^^^up with most of the stuff in the first post easy

The filler on Follow the Leader is some of its most interesting stuff, and definitely my most listened to record out of those listed above.

if you felt like elaborating on this, I'd be eager to hear a defense of that album's filler - I always sorta wanted to love that album more than I do but it seems to run out of steam for me

Personally I think that By All Means... is just filler plus the miracle that is "My Philosophy." But others seem to like it.

-- ablaeser, Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:26 PM (58 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Oh man, if "Ya Slippin'" "Jimmy" "Illegal Business" "Teacher Teacher" "I'm Still Number One" and so on are filler, fill me up!

kane or PE

deej OTM of the stuff left off Too Short is the only one that feels like a stone classic all the way, to me at least...

i haven't heard that JBs record in ages though i remember liking the 2nd one a whole bunch

Straight Out the Jungle is really good, but there's definitely some filler. (I think their only bonafide classic is J Beez Wit The Remedy tho)

j beez w/the remedy and buhloone mindstate are the great weird native tongue records

I voted for PE because seriously that album changed my life but I love these all, except Slick Rick which I don't know. I only recently got the Ultramagnetic MCs record and have been listening the hell out of it: "Ease Back" in particular rocks balls.

The filler on Follow the Leader is some of its most interesting stuff, and definitely my most listened to record out of those listed above.

if you felt like elaborating on this, I'd be eager to hear a defense of that album's filler - I always sorta wanted to love that album more than I do but it seems to run out of steam for me

-- J0hn D., Thursday, 10 April 2008 19:24

likewise, I've never liked this as much as I want to.

im real glad rev is repping hard for EPMD cuz they always seem to get short shrift in polls like this, one of my favorite groups but when it comes down to it theres always like one or two other albums ill take ahead of them in any given year

Strictly Business always sounded really thin to me, like the whole record was produced and recorded, then mastered through a series of tin cans.

This is probably the only album poll I've seen here where I own the whole list. But I can't decide! It's between Strictly Business and Critical Beatdown... maybe. Deffo not Straight Outta Filler though, has about four good tracks.

^^^wrong

yeah dude it's got some filler but it's mostly an awesome record! also Compton's in the House is not filler at all

I mean JUST FOUR? that's crazy.

Straight Outta Compton
F**k Tha Police
Gangsta Gangsta
8 Ball - (remix)
Express Yourself
I Ain't Tha 1
Dopeman - (remix)
Compton's in tha House

All great

quiet on tha set is decent too

actually parental discretion iz advised is great too

NO K-9 POSSE??? NO KING T????? NO MARLEY MARL???? NO 7A3????

NO DJ JAZZY JEFF AND THE FRESH PRINCE?????!!!!

</Mr. Snrub>

king t and marley marl shd be there

OK, maybe about 6 good songs on "Straight Out..." hardly the best here, though.

Boogie

In Control Volume 1 is the elephant in the room here.

what about ice-t's 'power'

I saw kool keith at a festival a couple of months ago, he was atrocious.

Having said that, I did vote fer CB

act a fool and power should totally be on it, as classic for west coast stuff as epmd or kane is to east coast stuff

About Follow the Leader:

You're probably paying too much attention to it to get it really stuck in your head; it's a subliminal record. It requires mental maneuvering, because you listen to these killer Rakim tracks and then you have to move your mood around to what are close to ambient pieces. Eric B. works it out.

I say subliminal, but, you know, those are, as he says, lyrics of fury.

Eric B. y Rakim weren't as chunky and ostentatious as those other groups, and less prone to seeming to want to prove something (except Slick Rick?). That affords them the quality of cleanness, clear-headedness.

I'd go into specifics, but I don't have 99.9% of my records here, and no stereo, anyhow. Possibly I have this mixed up with Paid in Full, anyway, but who can tell until I hear them again?

Holy shit, Power is killer.

PE gets my vote.

Side notes:
"Nation" is way better than "Fear of a Black Planet"
90% of it sounds dated and the songs don't even compare to "nation"
I can only listen to maybe only three songs off that album.

I also marvel at the amount of filler on "Straight out of Compton"
I can understand why the media hails it as such a great album or land mark, but Easy's, the D.O.C.'s, and Above the Law's first albums shit on "Straight out of Compton"

"power" -one good song and a classic album cover.

D.O.C. - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

no one can do it better is fantastic

SIR IF YOU ARE INSINUATING THAT THE D.O.C.'S MASTERFUL DEBUT ALBUM IS SOMEHOW BORING OR PUTS THE LISTENER TO SLEEP I'LL LET YOU KNOW THAT THIS TYPE OF SPEECH WILL NOT BE TOLERATED ON THIS THREAD AND I'M AFRAID I'M GOING TO HAVE TO ASK YOU TO LEAEVE

Pull your toenails out with pliers.

hey dipshit i was kidding

I'm obviously kidding, too.

But you know that I'm going to listen to that CD again first chance I get.

bam bancquern

I can understand why the media hails it as such a great album or land mark, but Easy's, the D.O.C.'s, and Above the Law's first albums shit on "Straight out of Compton"

1988

Wait, Eazy-Duz-It is, isn't he?

i just found a sealed copy of the first above the law on clearance for 6.99, it is pretty amazing.

No One Can Do It Better came out in 89, unless you're referring to some other DOC album I've never heard of?

the problem with Nation is it's better than everything on this thread

I was just trying to remember when Eazy Duz It and All Hail The Queen came out (I'm assuming '89 because that's when I got them for Christmas).

this thread has me on a total late-eighties rap spree, right now got "Bo! Bo! Bo!" from BDP playing (fresh! for '89)

bam bancquern

-- deej, Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:16 PM

Death Row Records, the D.O.C. and myself will not tolerate your anti-gangsta speech on our property.

Jerry Heller prob wouldn't mind it though cause he's a dick.

(its jokes bruv)

if you guys haven't read Jerry Heller's autobiography that shit is the funniest thing ever

j0hn otm.

this stuff makes me be like those old school rock n' roll/blues weirdos/or punk/or 60s dudes that never give up the ghost for the stuff, because i guess it's not often you get to see something *really* happen in music, like something that feels super amazing and new and sometimes you're lucky enough to be alive and paying attention (and in this case, have Yo MTV Raps on cable) and nothing else will ever seem as cool.

Hey look what I just found! Ed OG and the B.U.L.L.D.O.G.S. - Life of a Kid in the Ghetto

when I get all old-guy about early-ish rap I remember KDAY in L.A., that was like listening to the future showing up song after song

'by all means necessary' doesn't really stand up in this company. 'criminal minded' would.

I'm voting for EPMD because it's the one I reach for the most. But I rate them all, except UMCs which I never really got. On any rap forum everyone here would be getting called out for not voting Rakim.

Ban anyone who abbreviates Ultramagetic MCs as UMCs.

^ i did that one time

back before you put me up on umcs obv

haha, I probably jumped on your ass about it, too.

KDAY! RIP

Even now, like 15 years later I can hardly believe there was a hit(ish) rap album called "Fruits of Nature"

Please note that I abbreviated them as "Ultramag". Thank you.

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/blog/uploads/e/ExpatriateTwo/505.jpg

yah sorry, ultramagnetic mcs is just too long but before you know it I'm confusing groups and rap geekery alarms are ringing.

I should listen to 'Follow the Leader' again. I don't even remember what's on it anymore

Pappawheelie:

elbows down, hands up, tuck your chin, keep your head and feet moving and don't cross your legs when you circle.

I listened to some of these last night and man, there is a lot of crap filler on that BDP album. At least half of it (Violence, Nervous, etc.)

The worst is the spoken word track at the end, Necessary.

yeah that is REALLY bad

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

:D

ugh

What the fuck is wrong with all you people?

i'm guessing the margin is from lurkers voting for the only record on the list they knew.

christ

Rock/indie ppl be lovin' "the black Clash".

People be lovin' the best record on the list. No shock there.

lol, I voted for Critical Beatdown.

Straight Outta Filler in second as well.

Nice that all the records got votes.

me too! xxp

wtf @ lurker margin tho

never woulda guessed there were that many but

the only record on the list they knew.

-- Roberto Spiralli, Monday, April 14, 2008 11:06 PM

is prob true for at least a portion of those votes

That's a mighty high horse you guys are on considering two members of the rolling rap crew admitted to not even hearing all these albums.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MIc_rVKGA1g

cant remember what i voted for - nation of millions and by any means necessary were two of the v first rap albums i ever owned awwwww

making a guess about the provenance of votes in a poll requires no horse, high or otherwise. i'm not judging anybody, i'm saying what i think happened, and i'm pretty sure i'm right.

allol

yah whiney is it really all CHALLENGING OPINION of me to suggest that lots more people have heard Nation of Millions than have heard Critical Beatdown?

and that these same people voted for the album on the list that they heard?

i ended up voting BDK just to up his total

It's just lame that everyone is so willing to cry "herb" when people vote for the greatest hip-hop album ever created.

not you, HOOS. you're cool.

I hear you, but lol it's ILM dude. Folks pride themselves on avoiding the obvious and/or loudly reveling in the obvious.

xp

:D

i dont hear you, that album is overrated as fuck

wheres that thread where ellis goes off for people talking about the bomb squad's "wall of sound production" or some shit when really half this album is james brown loops

deej, what are your five favorite hip-hop albums of all time?

da beatnuts
da beatnuts
da beatnuts
da beatnuts
da beatnuts

"da beatnuts"

deej, what are your five favorite hip-hop albums of all time?

-- Whiney G. Weingarten, Monday, April 14, 2008 6:39 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

this isnt some rail against the canon thing, i dont think im edgy or some shit for being all 'lol PE overrated' but really what a boring poll

also, not to get into this argument, but the WAY they manipulated and tweaked James Brown samples is what made it different than, say, Kool G Rap doing "It's A Demo" over "Funky Drummer." Bomb Sqaud used shorter bursts, lower bitrates, layered them beyond belief, played them in the studio like a band instead of looping them to create a unique tension

It's not a boring poll, but an unfair poll. It's like having a "best metal album of 1986 poll" with Slayer as one of the options.

Delete PE and NWA from the running, call it the "third best hip-hop album of 1988 poll" and then get an interesting poll.

"interesting"

except not, cuz this is totally a music writer thing. you ask 9/10 rap fans what their favorite rap albums are and how many are gonna mention PE?

o/

i dont hear you, that album is overrated as fuck

-- deej, Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:37 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

wheres that thread where ellis goes off for people talking about the bomb squad's "wall of sound production" or some shit when really half this album is james brown loops

-- deej, Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:38 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

marking you down for this bullshit.

hey i do like the album but that doesnt keep it from being way overrated

by straw-men music writers i could give a fuck about.

think i voted for kane to defray this happening btw.

You have to remember the influence of Chuck D's flow on rappers like the guy out of Snap and the Outhere Brothers.

by straw-men music writers i could give a fuck about.

-- banriquit, Monday, April 14, 2008 6:49 PM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

hey whiney g is not a straw man

hes as real as you or I

"except not, cuz this is totally a music writer thing. you ask 9/10 rap fans what their favorite rap albums are and how many are gonna mention PE?"

deej, no offense, but that's pure nonsense.

i like PE a whole bunch.

but i sort of think maybe part of what bothers ppl, deej or whoever, is that PE sort of came and went and didn't have a whole lot to do with the hip-hop that was around when they were around, or the hip-hop before or after....they are a great group to me no question...but they are probably by far the LEAST influential of any of the records on that list.

they are also overpraised by a lot of rock fans and pubs, maybe because some of their sorta Clash agitprop and even noisier sonics were the most rock influenced of almost any great rap group ever.

either way nation is a great record as are all of these....but the point being is that you NEVER EVER would see, say, an average rock fan or Rolling Stone or Spin say that "Strictly Business" is as good, which it actually is, or at least very close.

YOU 9/10 RAP FANS ARE ON SOME PRE-9/11 BULLSHIT! THAT DAY CHANGED EVERYTHING, YOU JERKS!

i mean take the subjective element out of this for a minute - why did this album get 27 votes? because writers have been hammering for a decade.5 that its the best rap album EVER

i think there's something inherently false-objective/irrational about the argument that the 27 votes are totally fair because this album is unquestionably wayyy better than everything else

M@tt, Dr. Dre himself sites Nation Of Millions as a huge, huge influence.

anyway im at work way too late and complaining about this album being popular is almost as lame as defending it so im out

yeah i mean for awhile it was, you're right i was oversimplifying (also obv. Amerikkka's Most Wanted is almost a PE album w/Ice Cube)...but I mean i think there's something there...i'm just saying, like looking at rap today, i don't hear a ton of PE influence....it had a remarkably short lived influence for how great an album it is (and it is)

It's influence is in proving to a lot of people that hip-hop music can be as orchestrated and complex and album-oriented and important as the rock bands that critics loved at the time. That influence will be felt as long as hip-hop's around.

someone just drove by blasting rebel w/o a pause

Yes.

i mean take the subjective element out of this for a minute - why did this album get 27 votes? because writers have been hammering for a decade.5 that its the best rap album EVER

there might be an age divide here deej. I was around for all those records, I'd guess a number of people onthread were. All of 'em landed with various degrees of "fuck yeah," out where I grew up NWA was especially "hell yeah dudes," but the impact of "nation" was fucking massive. To use an overused simile, it hit like a bomb, you know? it was just "oh shit, this is the only record I wanna listen to right now" and the feeling lasted a long-ass time. people who didn't give a shit for rap suddenly gave a shit. I know canons are annoying and shit but if you think anything on the list is actually better than nation you should make yr case instead of going "wtf the album everybody loves got all the votes"!

J0hn otm. i voted kane more cuz i knew pe would get a disproportionate victory and figured kane would get overlooked and i did groan at just how big pe's victory is. where i grew up it was more n.w.a. being the 'holy shit you need to hear this' tape that got passed around, but it felt like more of an underground phenom (underground = schoolbus here), when the 'express yrself' vid got major play on mtv it felt as weird as say metallica making a video and having a hit. pe seemed a bigger deal 'nationally' (whatever that means)(what it means i guess is i remember those john leland columns and every other breaking pe story from 'bring the noise' thru 'fight the power' and the summer of griff and then 'welcome to the terrordome' and just holding my breath for what was next), and i'm not exaggerating at all to say nation changed my life, still like it as a whole over over fear of a black planet. still, at the time, ALL this shit was huge (well where i was ultramagnetic mc's never had anywhere near the impact of like let's get it started nevermind lyte as a rock), and the results maybe make it look like it was, or at least ilxors think it was 'there was pe and there was everybody else'. pe were king - they got closing shot in 'self destruction' for a reason - but it wasn't no jordan and the jordanaire's situation.

haha and really truth be told pe was big on the bus but it would've been 3rd most played hip-hop that year behind n.w.a. and the shockingly omitted move somethin'.

http://www.dustygroove.com/images/products/r/robbasedjez_ittakestw_101b.jpg

^^^^otm

i think i hate the song 'it takes two' now. i might have always hated it. john otm to the extent that a case could be made to certain people. unless we want to argue that herbs are mythical bugbears, like wack mcs

WOAH WOAH WOAH if yall want to second guess nation ok whatever but how the fuck you gonna HATE 'IT TAKES TWO' - best thing on this thread. best thing on any thread. the album ok - 'time's are gettin ill' was weakass shit and only heavy d could've pulled off 'joy and pain' but 'IT TAKES TWO'? THE SINGLE? CLASSIC

< /alexinnyc >

hate is a strong word, it's like 'i feel good' or something, i need a timeout. it needs to go somewhere for a very long time

I am glad to see that PE won, but a little surprised by the margin. I would have expected NWA to get at least double digits. Either way I am ready to consider this poll a success in that it shed some light on collective tastes and generated some interesting discussion.

What other years should we do? I am thinking 1994 is most urgent.

i thought we already did 94?

no wait that was my rap years poll

ha 88 and 94 were 1&2 respectively i think

but yeah i will start a 94 poll i guess?

*sigh of resignation and deep gaze into the void"

hey you had your moment in the sun dawg

our intrepid reverend

nothing to do with you dawg

PE sort of came and went and didn't have a whole lot to do with the hip-hop that was around when they were around, or the hip-hop before or after

Very sad but very true. I still contend that this had a lot to do with the sampling wars. And you can still find me out on my widow's walk waiting in vain for something/anything as transcendently obnoxious as side one of Apocalypse 91.

You have to remember the influence of Chuck D's flow on rappers like the guy out of Snap and the Outhere Brothers.

Even though this is no dis in my book, it's still hilarious!

PE sort of came and went and didn't have a whole lot to do with the hip-hop that was around when they were around, or the hip-hop before or after

WTF?!?!??

Straight Outta Compton was huge for me precisely (well, largely, anyway) because it had a PE sound. Also, Cube's first couple albums to thread. Also, Def Jux to thread. ALso EVERY FUCKING CHUCK D/FLAVOR FLAV SAMPLE EVER AND THERE'S ABOUT SIXTY SCHMILLION OF THEM TO MOTHERFUCKING THREAD!

sorry. let me sit down for a minute...

Its such a stupid argument, I can't believe people are acknowledging it. Like all even-remotely political rap ever to thread. That goes for like Tupac and Biggie and everything.

well, in terms of mainstream hip hop, PE are and were kind of an aberration. of course they were huge, of course people remember them, but their direct influence doesn't loom like that of NWA or Rakim, or even Slick Rick. it's there, but it's not as super obvious and constantly referenced in the media.

but Alex, Def Jux!

d'oh!

Hey, you don't like 'em, fine. But I don't see any signs they're going away.

It's influence is in proving to a lot of people that hip-hop music can be as orchestrated and complex and album-oriented and important as the rock bands that critics loved at the time. That influence will be felt as long as hip-hop's around.

-- Whiney G. Weingarten, Monday, April 14, 2008 7:59 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

it's hard for me not to read this sentence as "It's influence is in proving to a lot of white people that hip-hop music can be as orchestrated and complex and album-oriented and important as the rock bands that critics loved at the time."

there was a backlash against pe among rap fans just because of this kind of thinking. "rap can't be good on its own merits, it has to prove itself against the rock canon."

Well re-read it as a lot of rappers and producers rethought the attention they put into their own work.

also lol @ complaining about filler on rap albums. that's like complaining about gtr solos on metal albums.

thank god for important rock critics

Every rapper who ever lived fucking loves and respects Public Enemy. Why do you guys care so much about what "rap fans" and "important rock critics" think.

Well re-read it as a lot of rappers and producers rethought the attention they put into their own work.

-- Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:20 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

http://www.mug-shop.co.uk/images/mugs-warning/inflated-ego-mug.JPG

Every rapper who ever lived fucking loves and respects Public Enemy

-- Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:23 AM

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a4/75/7e44224b9da06e43e31ab010._AA240_.L.jpg

pwns in the game

man I totally respect a guy trying to make his own niche in criticism or whatever, but it's some bullshit to harp on a record for being overrated. Who gives a shit? If the record is great or lousy, argue that on its merits; but just because the record is highly rated by rock critics or whatever, is irrelevant to its greatness or lousiness.

Every rapper who ever lived fucking loves and respects Public Enemy.

OTM though perhaps one of the OG MCs posting on this thread will refute that shortly

where's colin c. lol

who cares what rappers think either

200 new answers

x post to J0rdan guilty as charged, if there's an album every rapper agrees is fucking excellent then I kinda wanna hear that album, I think "only my initial unfiltered reception counts" is a played-out aesthetic stance

that's right a PLAYED-OUT AESTHETIC STANCE you haters

Every rapper who ever lived fucking loves and respects Public Enemy.

OTM though perhaps one of the OG MCs posting on this thread will refute that shortly

HI DERE

can't believe you guys are still arguing about the challenging opinion that NWA is more influential to modern rap than PE.

sheeeit not to keep going with this much but I think that it's different to give a record a try because someone you respect hypes it, than to say some record doesn't deserve attention because people you disrespect hype it.

J0hn D and balls OTM re: PE (and NWA). that was pretty much my experience too. PE was what my older brother listened to - NWA was what my friends hid from their parents and listened to on the way home from school.

Alex the issue isn't "influential," who gives 1/2 of 1 shit about "influential"?

can't believe you guys are still arguing about the challenging opinion that NWA is more influential to modern rap than PE.

That is not the challenging opinion that I dispute. I dispute the STUPID opinion that

PE sort of came and went and didn't have a whole lot to do with the hip-hop that was around when they were around, or the hip-hop before or after

there was a backlash against pe among rap fans just because of this kind of thinking. "rap can't be good on its own merits, it has to prove itself against the rock canon."

-- Edward III, Tuesday, April 15, 2008 4:19 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

is this true? i guess im asking which rap fans were that exercised about the rock canon and its critical defenders. the album -- all of them -- are twenty years old and most voters here were not ten when it came out. i would be surprised if, at the time, it was seen as a completely other thing than the other records.

also -- yeah PE are less influential than NWA or rakim but it tends to be rockist rock critics who make a big fuss out of influence -- IRONY?

ILM is older than you think

deej and alex are under thirty right?

im 24

deej is lying I met him one time he is 53 and a multimillionaire

deej is professor griff

which Alex? Alex in SF is over 30. Me and J0hn definitely are as well (I was in high school when PE and NWA came out)

pushin' 40

GET OFF MY LAWN!

fuck you Shakey I am only 21 and everyone loves me for my youthful vigor

i don't wear jerseys
i'm 30 plus

john is but a mere mountain kid.

J0rdan guilty as charged, if there's an album every rapper agrees is fucking excellent then I kinda wanna hear that album

yeah but if "every" critic agrees that an album is fucking excellent i kinda want to hear that album too

i'm still o_Oing at the 'it's just a bunch of james brown samples' thing tbh. omg funk samples whatever next.

xpost

alex in baltimore, not SF, and not the non-rap fan non-alexes.

yeah but if "every" critic agrees that an album is fucking excellent i kinda want to hear that album too

-- J0rdan S., Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:00 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

So here's an album that pretty much every critic and every rapper and every rap fan but deej thinks is totally incredible. Can we bump the Vampire Weekend thread now?

it's fine to not like it, but it not being influential or being liked by the wrong people (rock critics not rap fans) are not good reasons. i'm sure some rap fans have liked PE at some point.

right right

both are CHALLENGING OPINIONS and neither opinion really means anything, i'm just saying that to me qualifying something by saying EVERY RAPPER LOVES IT is the same as trying to qualify something by saying EVERY CRITIC LOVES IT

Alex the issue isn't "influential," who gives 1/2 of 1 shit about "influential"?

-- J0hn D., Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:47 AM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

half of this argument started with M@tt saying PE were the least influential album on the list, don't act like I introduced the word into the discussion.

Can we collectively come up with one valid reason to like an album?

Then assign it to Nation Of Millions?

Then lock this thread?

some ppl are wayyy misreading me here

nation of millions is the shit no doubt but def influenced more shit like ratm and big beat than actual rap music. nwa stylin on straight outta compton sounds a lot like straight up rap today and even tho youll find some PE bites in the last 20 years (mostly like a sampled chuck d line than dudes actually tryna sound like pe as a whole) they never really fit into rap music esp when it became less group-oriented and more about solitary mcs and lyricists

hey i do like the album but that doesnt keep it from being way overrated

-- deej, Monday, April 14, 2008 6:48 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

and thing is i really would dig if i could get like killer mike spitting over 'night of the living baseheads' on a mixtape but youre about 100000000x likelier for it to hear cats bring back anything else on this this... this isnt cuz the pe joint is a bad album by any means but its def had a proportionately bigger impact with like rolling stone rock critics and british dudes than actual rappers or heads

on this this = on this list

The duo/trio trend was in full effect before P.E. They weren't left behind, they consciously bucked it by being a posse.

> when it became less group-oriented and more about solitary mcs and lyricists

Disagree. The '88 era (including PE) was about the rise of the soloist/lyricist and the decline of the group/routine oriented approach to rap. This is when we went from Treacherous Three to Kool Moe Dee solo.

nation of millions is the shit no doubt but def influenced more shit like ratm and big beat than actual rap music.

lol yes i probably got it because of chemical brothers, tricky etc <------- british dude

i mean shit - dre still runs rap and posthumous eazy verses were on like 3 of the best-selling rap albums of the last couple years while chuck d is reduced to crewing with go team and john spencer blues explosion and flav acts a fool on reality tv.... not a good legacy, dog

okay, actually that's a little earlier, but still.

xxxxpost to whiney

there were some other bigger groups too though, like stetsasonic

i'm still o_Oing at the 'it's just a bunch of james brown samples' thing tbh. omg funk samples whatever next.

-- banriquit, Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:00 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

this was a reference to an elli$ post talking about how everyone's talk about the bomb squad's CRAZY CONFRONTATIONAL WALL OF SOUND BEATS was always a little more heated than the record actually deserves. of course a bunch of james brown samples sound awesome, thats pretty much 5 years of rap history, but the point was in an effort to hammer home the GREAT SIGNIFICANCE of the album a lot of writers would overdo it

xxpost haha jon spencer blues explosion had tite beats on the real

not that im saying guest verses done past when youre poppin are indicators of like 'influence' or wahtever but while nwa still run the streets and i hear dope man at least once a week heres an album that chuck d rapped on in the last 5 years
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/Hot_Sex.jpg

also i love the denseness of PE, but it seems sort of...uh...god....rockist maybe...to praise it's maximalism over great, genius minimalism (i.e. skeletal james brown breaks)

also the ain't no half steppin' beat is kinda more mindblowing and elegant to me than anything on nation.

anyway i lOVE PE i hate sounding like i hate it! it's a great record.

yeah i don't go to 'nation' for elegance so much.

I post slow-old-man style so the point's been made xp etc but:

as far as being influential, when it comes to rhyme styles rakim had more impact - flow became more important than run dmc-type shouting. and when it comes to mindset nwa are really the ones who shaped the course of the genre for the next 20 years. I won't hesitate to say gangsta rap was the worse thing ever to happen to hip hop, but thinking that tupac and biggie were more influenced by pe than by nwa seems like an awfully big christmas wish.

public enemy's near-term influence was the rise in black consciousness / political rap, but that was an ill-fitting suit for most. green black and red medallions quickly became last year's fashion fad once nwa came blazing out of cali. all of a sudden everybody was a roughneck hood. I saw public enemy open up for nwa in philly around '88 or '89. the torch got passed pretty damn quick.

chuck d didnt really help his grassroots appeal when he started suing biggie for 'ten crack commandments'

yeah i don't go to 'nation' for elegance so much.

-- banriquit, Tuesday, April 15, 2008 4:20 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

yeah but you don't see like normal rock mags writing about marley in the same way they do about PE is what i'm saying. and they should.

don't read rock mags!

ilm is where they crushed NWA 27 to 8

don't read rock mags!

^^^^this

pe's influence was most strongly felt in the native tongues posse - de la, jungle bros, tribe called quest.

influence and evolution is more complex than this, but there's a fork in the road that hip hop approaches in '88 between thug life and righteous teaching. the thug life led to almost every major artist after that and the righteous teaching path led to a backpacker convention.

so what? this is about these albums.

well smoke some kill was left off this poll so the results are null and void

also like and what says, PE did have an influence on non-rap (and not just rock). insert 'big beat is dance music for rock fans' zing if necessary.

i don't think any of the people you named actually sound like PE anyway.

deej if it was just the hits off Straight Outta Compton I would have gone with Compton easy. But come on now. SOC just doesn't play as well front to back as Nation. Who really gives a shit about "Parental Discretion Iz Advised"? Not like it sucks ass or anything but that album peaks with, falls off hard after, "Gangsta Gangsta." And if we want to talk about legacies, we probably ought to include NWA's pioneering use of misogynist tropes/language (IIRC in '86 we heard more about ahem "skeezers") which continues to rankle old-ass cranks like myself.

I have a straight razor opinion about the electoral process in the USSA right about now. Since they've reduced politics into a game of sports highlights, people ask me these loaded questions, expecting some half baked safe ass answers. First of all, when folk ask 'what do I think about BARACK OBAMA?' - I dig the dude, although I think his track record has been conservative as hell for various reasons so he could get ahead in Uncle Sam's eyes. Cool, whatever... But I also retort that I think the United States needs 16 years of the man's intelligence, energy, and later as he develops a savvy and presidential skill while working in the public eye. To me Amerikkka is still about race like a black and white old TV set. There is no way one can avoid the race issue here in these image projected times. That's why I think that BARACK OBAMA can best serve the rebound image of the USA as the 'greatest Vice President' the country has ever had. Think about it. The VP position the past 8 years of bush and dick has been a position of power for all the wrong reasons. This is not 1936, every millisecond of presidential pressure will be felt by someone trying to lead the country the right way, not just the 'white' way. The way to lessen the pressure job is to have a powerful vice prez, cabinet, and to basically not give a damn. And today the VP position in Amerikkka can't be looked at as a second place job, rather a point guard position to the scorer. Or in CHI speak SCOTTIE PIPPEN.

This won't be Hillary or Barack , it will be Hillary AND Barack. They as individuals will try to show so much care and concern for their jobs if they get it that the intensity of the seat may be too much. Twice as much for Barack in trying to prove to everybody he can do it. Has anybody checked how the pressures mounted on Bill Clinton's appearance? And to son of a bush less because he doesn't give a squat. The rules were changed after the job killed FDR after 12 years of trying to fix a nation. That was way back when. These times in the smaller world every move is scrutinized. Lets say BARACK grows an afro or a beard, it will be a new relevant discussion on what's appropriate for the growth of black hair. Yeah, you cannot avoid the issue of racial difference here. Only work will absolve that. The pressure will take him out, he can't afford Crawford like retreats.

Hillary Clinton is hurling too much ego for her to appoint somebody like Barack as her VP ticket. She better realize an unprecedented team approach is her only chance. Taking ego and tradition out of this. Hillary and Barack will have to be more of a team than head and assistant to get this place somewhat back together. This team has to roll up the sleeves and drop the bucket and work. I hear people ask why would Barack settle for the second job? I say it's the wrong way to look at it. VP here has to be looked at as a lateral position. If Obama's president he will be tested internationally immediately. You don't think HUGO CHAVEZ is reaching out to brotherman? How about CASTRO if he's feelin his oats again. What's the middle east mess politic, his father's homeland continent. of Africa? I'm in France and they're watching the run offs like a game show with these crazy expectations. The republicans are the Bill Belicheks of politics, the axis of evil to do anything to steal a win, no matter who. At the end of the day they gonna make Mitt Romney look like the prettiest girl in drunk room at 4:44 am. He looks the part of the typical winner and loser Amerikkka has had.

Real talk is saying that investment in BARACK OBAMA is getting Amerikkka comfortable with him as a Vice President. This is the price. Hillary can still get strategy in the bed better that Barack can right now from a crew. Experience can be gained as Mr OBAMA roams free safety to deal better with issues and constituency
without the pressure. It can be a four year soapbox campaign to turn heads. There's so much clean up work to do BARACK OBAMA 2016 sounds like a grand idea. For those that think it's far away they have the simple, nimble mind of a mere consumer, not realizing that companies already are breaking out mid teens strategies for robots to follow. As President ,I dare not expect anything done quicker for black people, in fact we better look at it the same way we look at a black judge. Don't expect to be a priority here. It's a reason that I recently ditched African-American as a term for blackfolk in 2008. The title is too ambiguous. BARACK makes me cringe when I hear this come out of his mouth. He's clearly African American, father from Africa, mother from here. Black people here- we're systematically detached from Africa and increasingly Amerikkka, as I say many of us made to think ' We don't give a damn or know enough about AFRICA, and Amerikkka don't give a fu*k about us.' Yes the term African-American is a noble idea to keep hope alive as REV JESS JAX tells us, but in 2008 black may be the grip to hold on to the diaspora.

The illusion of true diversity has faked us into a final position of thinking the ability to be a equal consumer makes us equal Amerikkkans. NOT. There are people in Amerikkka that have and will have long wealth in this recession as we think that a well plastered entertainer or athlete symbolizes the American chance for all of us. I don't know about the next African American person, but 95% of my family is check to check cash poor. We can't look back past 70 years of anyone owning a home in the North. This illusion of diversity makes Amerikkka see many colors and shades of folk on commercials today while the production companies that get those 6-7 figure jobs remain 99% white. Yeah. So lets be real about this next phase of America. The fact remains that every single President of The United States has been a white male, but the even more glaring one is that the runner up has also been of the same ilk. BARACK OBAMA for 16 years yall.
But then as a black man whose been here almost half a century, based on the track record how do I really know a better Amerikkka is truly better for me? So I hear in the background 'keep hope alive....keep hope alive....keep hope alive....keep hope alive....keep hope alive....'

EVOLUTIONARY VS REVOLUTIONARY
So I get the feedback that DEF JAM will not replace the Presidential job JAY Z stepped down from. I ran into a lawyer that represents me with Universal, for my holdings, and songs etc. He said that these people are just business crunchers at best, I told him in the lobby in CANNES that those weasels couldn't do another business, that's why these lawyers hang around entertainment because they appear to be less dysfunctional. Here's my response to Universals announcement. ..and by the way I was ONLY concerned because it was DEF JAM, It's not that I was seeking anything else. Sht if you gonna be tossing around those positions giving it to folk with light resumes on diverse duty, then check my hand up. Well anyway...here's to the buzzards of business....

Chuck D's Statement to Not Filling the Position of DEF JAM President After JAY Z Stepped Down

"It's really disappointing that UNIVERSAL decided not to replace the vacated DEF JAM job. Its sort of expected, and a primary reason why the music business has collapsed. The sports world relies on a mix of business people, coaches, ex-players and players to further an organized growing path in what it does. It's why it does well and we remain fans. I'm embarrassed at how musicians and artists in other genres of music make us appear to be greed-infested, structureless idiots when it comes down to the organization of black music and culture.

And it's quite clear that these folks could care less. The same thing that happened to MOTOWN is DEF JAM's fate. In my opinion, the fact that 10 -15 individuals in the guise of hovering buzzards are given keys to the culture based on their alliances with these corporations, is a partial reason for the troubled condition it's in. Hence music, and especially this urban, black, whatever you wanna call it, is an incestuous inner circle of usual suspects that are financially trusted over black culture by a select 'other few.' It's evident that we are not the same people." Chuck D

I still get questioned on why I consider JAY Z the greatest MC up to his point. He embodied all the greats, developed his own style, made it work, and was later fearless and flawless in exhibiting this skill of song in front of any crowd. This is no knock against who I consider the most feared, yet respected, embodiment of a MC , Blastmaster KRS-ONE. No knock against who I consider the most skilled; BIG DADDY KANE, the wittiest KOOL MOE DEE, the most powerful MELLE MEL, and the most tenured LL COOL J, or the cleverest MR ICE CUBE. MOE DEE has a book about this so maybe yall should read it. There's a difference between evolutionary and revolutionary. For example RAKIM is clearly revolutionary as with KRS ONE . DE LA SOUL is revolutionary, TRIBE CALLED QUEST evolutionary. MELLE MEL revolutionary, LL evolutionary. We can go on. Certain MCS set a original path that they couldn't exploit themselves as someone riding behind their path.

But let me tell you about THIS brother...beyond all amazing emcees I've heard is someone I'm proud to know and work with, and hopefully you will witness as well. J LEE from the HEET mob in KANSAS CITY is the most awesome delivery emcee yet. He is simply a sensai of rap. Peep heet mob led by the amazing J LEE and beats by VIC HUNT aka Daheetius. Sht J LEE and his crew can get anybody scared....

http://www.beyond.fm/band_music.asp?id=16

JLEE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nfDprtEWZA

MUSIC
I have to be honest I'm not hearing much of anything as of now. Nothing. I think when you have a gang of evolutionary things happening, it takes time for something truly revolutionary to pop out. It's why peeping MYSPACE and iLIKE pages may be the place to hear some new sht.

LL and RUN
LL is my man as well as RUN but I've been totally confused by some recent decisions they've both made recently. LL has made some records recently be it for mixtape or next album that in my honest opinion has trekked backwards for a near 40 year old man with almost grown children. Trying to make Queens clubbangers is one thing, but he's reaching into inferior territory with wack N-word laden choruses and spray on street rough-cred.
What's Your Hood Like and another called Queens. Cmon, L is way above that. Fu*k a mixtape and its appeal if it brings down everything you built over the last 25 years. Reach for higher ground L because you can touch it and then bring some integrity down to these streets. They expect that from you.

RUN on the other hand has said he's retired RUN-DMC because there's no longer JMJ. It's his excuse for not touring with DMC. Sad. Talking to RUN last year he said GRANDMASTER FLASH would be a great mix, as well as my suggestion of DJ HURRICANE whose HOLLIS CREW, AFROS, BEASTIE BOYS, DAVY DMX , connection makes him a no brainer. It's just that CANE don't take no crap. But he was truly JMJ's man and would stand the legacy proud. But RUN said it was over. But through the process he released a fantastic solo album called DISTORTION a couple years back, and now is going out on the road to pair up with KID ROCK. Cmon RUN-DMC just study the career of SAM and DAVE and put the small sht to the side. I'd pay to see RUN-DMC in a minute, in fact drive their damn tour bus if need be. It's a pact FLAV and I made long ago-, no matter what road we take, the group is greater than both of us and we will find time

DMC'S VOICE
After D and I participated in the launch of BEYOND.FM ( joined by FLAV in Vegas) I was telling DJ JOHNNY 'JUICE' ROSADO that his workouts are returning the voice back to raps 'KING OF ROCK'. It's getting stronger by the day, as I was emceeing next to D in a medley of classic and new cuts he was doing.

BOBBY FISHER
When he passed I saw all kinds of convoluted news reports about his eccentric directions and life. I saw news reports grasp and struggle with his alleged Anti Semitism and anti Americanism. Well there's an answer for the latter. The US snatched and forbid him 3.5 million dollars that he made in the early 90's in a BORIS SPASSKY rematch in sanctioned Belgrade. I'd be hot too. Like the USSA's fingers ain't meddled in enough pots. I can't stand these border principles. Asking for permission and having passports makes it definitely NOT a free country or world.
For the Anti-Semitism part, they said his mother was Jewish, so he was half Jewish. I don't understand. If there was a black person lets say.... Clarence Uncle THOMAS passing bills that in essence handicapped poor black folk, would the press say he's anti-black while being black, or that was just the JOB?

Nutty Bobby Fisher was just plain crazy then, leave at that. Lets say his rants made it very difficult and sticky for his fellow Jewish constituents, like many black folk who speak contrary to the needs of black people,but get lauded and applauded in the western media as heroes for a an American liberal understanding. Sht, the confusing wild web of racism peeks its ugly head from ALL angles if you care to notice.

FRANCE
Just got back from MIDEMnet in CANNES FRANCE. The work and touring PE did last year has had a resonating effect in France. I swear that Paris is as a black city like Harlem or even the ATL. Tell the world. PE had established presence in legendary standing here by simply staying the course in revolutionary outlook. This place is also watching every second of the primaries. The expectation of the earth is hinging on this electoral balance. About MIDEMnet before it used to be 15-20% of the MIDEM convention, the largest international music convention on the planet. The remaining 80% would market, barter, and trade the traditional physical music business. MIDEMnet covered the digital delivery aspect with online, mobile, and computer hardware representatives and CEOs finding, and paving new roads for music related entertainment. This year I keynoted on a panel named 'Fans Business-They Care, How Can They Help You?' ALI PARTOVI from iLIKE , Bryan Perez, from Live Nation, Fabrice Sergent from Cellfish Media, and Johan Vosmeijer from Sellaband. Especially ALI from iLike spoke of the explosive viral attractiveness of iLike. Try it. Ever since Facebook adapted it as their multimedia widgetry , it's become MYSPACE plus.

Had to jet out after two days to get back, but headed back to FRANCE next week to perform with MR ARCHIE SHEPP with a contingent of SLAMjamz Artists, KYLE JASON, JAHI, BRIAN HARDGROOVE, and DJ LORD plus yours truly to come up with a dynamic improv. Two weeks back to back dealing with CHARLES DE GAULLE Airport is much. Usually I drive in France, I don't know exactly as I didn't drive in NICE -CANNES this time because I was in and out. BTW I'll miss the entire SUPER BOWL while I head again to Europe. When I land I'll know the winner.

GERMS , COVER YOUR FACE.
In EUROPE there is a terrible habit of people not covering their mouths when they sneeze and cough. Coupled with a general rudeness from older EUROs especially if you come across them as a person of color. On the plane, tight azz AIR FRANCE I was squeezing by this coughing person in the aisle seat. He was older, coughing and sort of tired and sick and wasn't really trying to move so I had to limbo around and climb over him. I sorta fell into this 90 year old woman who had a blindfold over her eyes sleeping. She woke up and punched me in the back. Yo , I really could NOT stop laughing after she did that. And she had every right after I fell on her side.

HOCKEY
I just asked how the American sports media says very little of nothing about hockey fights while they'll say that when the brother-laden NBA has a fight it's considered 'disgusting' and 'deplorable in the words and tone of BILL WALTON. I was talking about this with MIKE TILLERY. It's not that I want to see brothers fight, but I don't wanna hear about how Canadians are another culture entirely.

PASSPORT
Let me tell you something. Before this presidential election becomes a 'selection' black folk better get passports. Yes I do realize this will be a challenge to Homeland security if a million folks bum rushed all of a sudden. Last year the services were shut down. Still there's no reason NOT to get one because with the failing economy this place may come up with all types of reasons to say you can't leave.

ILLEGAL Immigrants
I heard some idiot on the radio say the way to handle the illegal immigrant situation is to have citizens call them out and charge them with felonies. This person was a black talk show DJ. Shows you he can't spell diaspora. The border policy is so archaic it's a step away from forts. The nerve of the damn pilgrims who 'discover' a land. Build a fort to protect them from natives. Then venture out and maim the natives for 3000 miles to the west. Come up with some cock-laden flag, rhetoric, and anthem and name the states and streets from what they maimed. And got the nerve to say who deserves to be here. Please save that crap for FOOLS.

HEATH LEDGER
Sorry I didn't even know who this dude was....shows you either how much I know or how much I care about the movie industry. I heard he was talented yet not happy. My advice is to give your position to those that are next in line. Oops I guess he did, but it didn't have to be the death option. Couldn't he spell s-a-b-a-t-t-i-c-a-l?

FAMOUS TO BE FAMOUS
But at least that dude had talent. I don't understand this famous to be famous sht. Cmon real talented people are struggling to get noticed, while assholes are spread over the media for absolutely NO reason.

FAKE IT UNTIL YOU MAKE IT (VEGAS)
Upon performing with DMC and FLAV in VEGAS, I was taken aback by how the crowd was mimicking every club video the past 12 years. They in my kid's vernacular looked mad 'fake'. Like they sprayed on a club state of being. It seemed like they had to move to the music and the music was not moving them. To me it's the same feeling as the last years of disco. How many years can peeps keep it moving to the same beats? Something has to be new on the horizon. FAKE has been in style a bit too long... Speaking of fake, 90% of all rappers who claim to be a roughneck gangster is borderline fake. Now I know that this is the entertainment biz, and behooves an acting mode, but damn. I'd like to see the rap world really get with the heart of the people.

We need some JOHNNY CASH type cats to get true, or to be made true by testing themselves in front of a crowd that knows well. Too long the thrill of the crime-rhyme has been pushed as fascination to school kids, and the general public as the representative of hip hop. I challenge cats to take it all the way to their real constituency and fan base. To not get locked up short term for press reasons. The cats serving real time are COOL C, STEADY B out of PHILLY, and JAY DEE from the LENCH MOB in LA, all those brothers I know and are tragic cases we ALL need to know about. They would have a whole different thing to tell the public than most of the CRACK rappers we hear on modern urban radio, TV, and especially mixtapes. Real talk means to protect the people and lead them not just lead them into consumption.

WHAT DOES WHAT I GOT GOT TO DO WITH GETTIN?
Last note on me trying to get that DEF JAM gig, I was reading all the responses and I appreciate the public's approval of your fellow enemy. 90%, damn I can see that the people are not blind. But I wasn't twisted I knew this wasn't a public office so the people really don't matter unless they're consumers of the highest degree. When it comes to art nowadays and especially music, people want to integrate their participation into the things they dig. Why would people be fans of a baseball team for 100 years, or there's waiting lists for the NY football GIANTS over 4-5 generations. Its more than just good product, there's interactive consideration and partial participation. The sports world works on that.
Anyway the point is that the criteria of the record company head is based on what? I saw on the blogs wondering and basing me on how rich or lack of I was. Let me tell you this. If my position of anything is based on showing off what I have and exposing my personal life, I'll never get anything because you will never hear or see me say where I live. What I purchased. The name of family members. My account. My net worth. If it was up to me my government slave name wouldn't be out there. The answer is that it ain't nobody's business. Just because the masses are trained to connect the collection of MTV cribs, pimped rides, famous to be famous do nothing social idiots, jewelry laden, yacht ridin', caviar and champagne guzzling VIP fools, doesn't mean you'll get it from me.

FAT AND LAZY DJS
Lastly the reason that the music can't levitate is because we have some short termed neglect as far as the level of mobile, club, and especially radio DJs who are supposed to evaluate all the records that come out today. A close source told me his conversations with a radio person had said unless a product came from a major brand it was tossed. The same thing with digital mp3s sent. Today I would think that DJs couldn't have it any easier. So what they gotta go through 250 songs a week as opposed to 50 twelve inch records every two weeks from about five years ago. Like what else can they be doing with their time? I came from a high school track meet where they assembled over a thousand athletes in an armory seamlessly to compete in a myriad of events. Now a DJ can't sit in one place and listen to new music for 3-4 hours in a week. There are 24 hours in a day. Most people have mundane jobs that keep them working 8 hours for 5 days a week. And a DJ is swamped? No excuse, especially for the DJs too big to work.
And they're big for a reason. The DINER Cards in lieu of airplay, web, or satellite play have them too bloated, too lazy, and a detriment to the organization of an art form I always considered the parallel of sport. Every statistic is kept to the T in sport, people work around the clock, library systems record every print, audio, and visual in their banks, even retail is detailed in order to sell. And you mean to tell me that a DJ in 2008, on Serrato who no longer or never lifted a crate of vinyl, can't listen to an independent artist or check their MYSPACE page because they consider it a task? Give me a break. This disease of ease has also spread to journalists who claim they can't balance their time. Give me a break. Again it's another reason why the movie and sports businesses whip music's ass, and make tall submit to the standard those industries set.

Out - and may the NEW YORK football GIANTS fold them axis of evil Patriots

WORD UP

luriqua's senior thesis

how many groups actually sounded like pe? people want to know what influence pe had at the time - their influence was one of style, outlook, attitude. righteousness really wasn't a top 10 concern for rappers at the time. it was putdowns and check out my kicks.

xpost

mckaine with the QUEEN MOVE

righteousness was totally a top 10 concern at the time and one reason i'm glad it came and went is cuz the shit got tired as fuck super fucking quick. even pe's shit got pretty fucking old, by apocalypse 91 (which still sounds great) they're incredibly over the top unbearably preachy at points, 'don't drink - don't wear nikes - don't say nigga', it's no fucking wonder the chronic won nevermind that by 91 the pe sound had kinda run its course. you don't hear whodini fans bitching about how hip-hop had a choice between them and criminal minded or something and woah to that fork in the road etc. no, history moves on, music (ESP hip-hop ESP this early in its development) moves on and either somehow you stay 'relevant' and adapt or you get left behind in yr moment.

i never got why chuck didnt stick around and play elder statesman with guest verses and shit.... seems like anybody would wanna get blessed with him even if they were on some party shit but he was too self-righteous to crew with actually dope rappers in the 90s and got stuck out with hip-hop artists who didnt hurt the black community like dj z-trip

balls you are one astute motherfucker

think about how bun and face and 8ball get on every new release in the south, why isnt chuck rapping with like lupe and cham and shit

cause Lupe would go FUCK NAH I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO CHUCK D IS I LIKE THAT IGNORANT SHOOT EM UP SOUTHERN SHIT

* 1988: "Funny Vibe" (from the Living Colour album Vivid)
* 1990: "Endangered Species (Tales From The Darkside)" (from the Ice Cube album AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted)
* 1990: "Kool Thing" (from the Sonic Youth album Goo)
* 1991: "Bring The Noise" (from the Anthrax album Attack of the Killer B's)
* 1991: "Rise N Shine" (from the Kool Moe Dee album Funke, Funke Wisdom)
* 1994: "Rumbo N Da Jungo" (from the Street Fighter Soundtrack)
* 1995: "Destroy All Masters" (from One Million Strong)
* 1995: "It's The Pride" (from Pump Ya Fist)
* 2001: "Elvis Killed Kennedy" (from the Vanilla Ice album Bi-Polar)
* 2004: "Hot Gossip" (with the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion)
* 2005: "Bin Laden" (Immortal Technique feat. KRS-One and DJ Green Lantern)
* 2005: "Shock And Awe" DJ Z-Trip album Shifting Gears)
* 2007: "Flashlight Fight" (from the The Go! Team album Proof of Youth)

Cuz no one wants to hear from an old bitter anti-semite... I voted for Rick The Ruler

don't think anyone's disputing why PE 'lost' and their moment ended -- tho i dunno if marley marl had it any easier? for different reasons i guess -- unless you're interested in winner's history & reputation-mongering, it doesn't have much bearing on the quality of the records they made 1987-90.

what a track record! I was about to bring up "endangered species" as chuck's best guest spot ever.

xp

Chuck is still mad that he lost out the spot on "Radio Song" to KRS.

* 2001: "Elvis Killed Kennedy" (from the Vanilla Ice album Bi-Polar)

Wait what?

ethan you gotta remember that chuck d. was already kinda on the old end of the scale at the time pe were emerging as is and that by the early 90s there seemed a real divide - geographic, plus between those golden age guys and who came after. plus pe already were seeming a lil corny and they were alot more concerned w/ branching out to the altrock audience/dollars (touring w/ sisters of mercy, touring w/ u2, video and song w/ anthrax) than w/ their base. they didn't get blowback like say krs-one did for recording w/ rem but still it was classic crossover moves and they suffered 'sellout/gone pop' accusations (actually i can remember this circa fear of a black planet and i can really remember pe fans i knew wondering why they'd let ice cube on one of their and n.w.a. fans seeing cube working w/ pe was proof he'd gone soft w/ boyz n the hood just confirmation). and then they released muse sick n hour mess age and story over that the pe that's been around for nearly 15 years. i can remember a ward sutton comic around the time of 'he got game' called 'they got lame'.

at the time there was all that 'the judgment night soundtrack is the future of music' and pe totally totally bought that line hard, still are really.

1986 - Breakbeat Lenny releases Ultimate Breaks and Beats

August 1987 - Emu's SP1200 sampler comes out

Late 1987 - Marley Marl ditches Shan's keyboards and chops UB&B in the 1200

Immediately after, PE follows the sound (Rebel and Bring the Noise were both 1987), but ups the ante ten fold (not sampling UB&B, but digging, and layering outside of the 1200).

Full album follows in early 1988.

Marley more or less keeps sampling single UB&B songs per track.

This is what made 1988 PE's year.

matos if you still read ilx and you read this thread scan them old spins circa 89-90-91 there was a hip-hop state of the union one where i seem to recall some real 'man o man what are gonna do about n.w.a.' worry and there was some dialogue between hank shocklee and paul simon circa rhythm of the saints that i'm just curious to look at again.

mckaine with the QUEEN MOVE

-- M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 15 April 2008 16:56 (38 minutes ago) Link

lol'd at this

why isnt chuck rapping with like lupe and cham and shit

-- and what, Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:07 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

bun is kind of way past this point, but there weren't many music things that got me more excited last year than slick rick spitting that verse on that cham song

but like even bun getting on that dizzee album

bun will rap on any motherfucking thing

everyone's talk about the bomb squad's CRAZY CONFRONTATIONAL WALL OF SOUND BEATS was always a little more heated than the record actually deserves

yeah after growing up reading about pe's WALL OF SOUND it was pretty disappointing when i finally got to hear nation/planet and it just sounded like the stetsasonic i'd already heard

bit more aggressive than stetsasonic, no?

i guess these things are partly about what you hear first, especially if that makes a big impact on you.

yeah definitely

Hearing Stetsasonic before Public Enemy is kind of....odd.

prince paul is the only wayhow i can figure

yeah i didn't know who i was hearing at the time, it was just a tape i had, then oilyrags made me a cd-r w/stetsasonic on em and i was like 'oh shit THIS is what i've been listening to since i was 16"

RAPPERS STEPPIN TO ME
THEY WANNA GET SOME
BUT IM THE KANE SO YO
YOU KNOW THE OUTCOME

another victory
they can't get with me
so pick a B.C. date 'cause your history

hoos, when stet sampled early on, they too sampled one song from UB&B per track generally (Funky Penguin = Sally, Expansions = Talkin' Jazz, etc.)

Marl (and maybe EPMD) kinda beat everyone to the punch on that UB&B/1200 formula, before Stet. Only PE went beyond it during the first string of dudes. Well beyond it.

Paul with De La, Dre with Eazy Duz It (and Straight Outta Compton later) and Dust Bros with Paul's Boutique were the students of Hank Shocklee's PE technique within the next year or two.

For the 1988 days of producers hanging around the store for breaks and talking about the repercussions of UB&B, and to see the changing of the guard in action (as Mantronix is still vaguely in the picture during this piece):

http://www.globaldarkness.com/articles/big_steal.htm

i love hip-hop

didnt see THAT one coming

great piece pw!

yeah after growing up reading about pe's WALL OF SOUND it was pretty disappointing when i finally got to hear nation/planet and it just sounded like the stetsasonic i'd already heard

Oh come on! You seriously thought something like "Eh. This is as crazy confrontational as (um) Stetsasonic" upon first hearing PE? Seriously??

Look, I admit that Nation no longer sounds as speedy as it did in 1988. But I just heard it again about an hour ago and "CRAZY CONFRONTATIONAL WALL OF SOUND BEATS" definitely does NOT overdo it.

So I want to know which Stetsasonic track matches (surpasses?) the CRAZY CONFRONTATIONAL WALL OF SOUND BEATS of "Night of the Living Baseheads." Hell, I want to know ANY rap more crazy confrontational than "Lost at Birth."

plus pe already were seeming a lil corny and they were alot more concerned w/ branching out to the altrock audience/dollars (touring w/ sisters of mercy, touring w/ u2, video and song w/ anthrax) than w/ their base.

But the altrock audience was their base at least as early as Nation. Part of it anyway. A significant part, though. And yeah, I recall those corny/gone pop/soft arguments and they were preposterous. OK fine, they sold out to the altrock audience (only they didn't). But again, "Lost at Birth" or even Muse Sick-N-Hour Mess Age - corny? soft? and despite several hits, gone pop? Riiiight.

at the time there was all that 'the judgment night soundtrack is the future of music' and pe totally totally bought that line hard, still are really.

Well, it was the future (or rather, a future). But more in nu-metal (which had a fair amount of PE in it) than rap.

scan them old spins circa 89-90-91

I have most of these so I'll look through this weekend.

Oh come on! You seriously thought something like "Eh. This is as crazy confrontational as (um) Stetsasonic" upon first hearing PE? Seriously??

That's just my point though: it was noisy and cutup, but I didn't find it (Stet or PE) all that confrontational at all. Maybe it's cause I grew up on post-PE stuff that had internalized the confrontational aspect, but I just didn't/don't hear it.

but I just didn't/don't hear it.

Let me re-phrase that: I didn't hear it then, but I understand PE's context more these days and understand why they were heard as confrontational at the time.

Ah ok I get it now. Still very bizarre, though.

Maaaaaaaaaaaan! If I'd known you hadn't heard PE (such a thing hardly seems possible - Stet has kind of a 'forgotten gem' status at this point) I would have def. given you the time.

Also, I should point out that the disc I gave Von Hoosenstien with Stet also had Son of Bazerk, so there was a nice dose of circa-Fear of a Black Planet Bomb Squad noise on that little nugget, which may also have also affected his experience.

Oh nah man I was saying I 'accidentally' heard Stet before you hooked me up w/them, and that when I heard PE it was kinda eh. It wasn't until you gave me the CD-R that I knew I'd been hearing Stet all these years on this tape I had.

ok, that makes a lot more sense.

plus pe already were seeming a lil corny and they were alot more concerned w/ branching out to the altrock audience/dollars (touring w/ sisters of mercy, touring w/ u2, video and song w/ anthrax) than w/ their base.

lest we forget Anthrax's I'm the Man (Def Uncensored Version) was released in 1987, prompting Chuck's line in Bring the Noise, and later, their collab.

this was the song all my rock friends used to try to convince me to stop listening to that "jungle bunny music" i liked.

For those who want to take a stab at Run-DMC's Rock Box, check the spyder d interview with Larry Smith:

http://www.spydomusic.com/interviewmp3.html

(tough to hear larry's responses, but...)

it really was bambattaa's "master of records" selection that brought rock fully into the mix, and fab 5 freddy who took it to the punk/downtown scene via TV Party and such back in 1980/1981.