as we approach the end of the 00s, as far as it's worth caring about these things from a critical pov, what is the ONE thing that has bothered you most about popular music developments since 2000?

emo

Corporate "indie music"

THE one and only correct answer, tell them what they've won, John...

http://americanidolist.com/files/2008/02/32246817-simon_cowell.jpg

I was actually thinking of mentioning him myself.

iPod generation meaning that bands are happier doing 4 genres shittily than one genre well.

I'll tell you
Yahoo! Answeres: Best Soft Rock Songs?
I actually bothered to make a list of great soft rock songs that I either like nowadays or I used to like. Anyways, the best answer chosen by the asker was:
coldplay
Dave Matthews
Lifehouse
Nickelback
Howie Day
Jon Mclaughlin
Daniel Powter
Creed
Daughtry
Elvis Costello
Clocks by Coldplay
viva la vida by coldplay
etc..
hope i helped
those are some really good soft rock singers...

Asker's Rating:
5 out of 5
Asker's Comment:
awesome!!!

somehow this is a metaphor to most people still listening to crap on a regular basis, which bothers me most. ignorant fools.

Corporate "indie music"

Yep. Also the fact that 90% of dance music to trouble the charts since the days of 2-step has been bland as fuck and devoid of funk.

Sorry, that's two.

OK, I'll take the bait ... what's so bad, or to be more specific, what's so *uniquely* bad about Simon Cowell? It's not as if arrogant svengalis of manufactured pop haven't been around forever, and won't continue to be around forever.

Truly, he is history's greatest monster.

To be honest he's had a far bigger effect on TV than on the charts.

That requires a long detailed answer and I don't do those on ILx. Suggest you read Morley's words on Simon Fuller in Words And Music since they are equally and arguably more appropriately relevant as far as Cowell is concerned and both are partners in killpop crime anyway.

What chap just said, and as such it's less about him that it is his shows being the byword for how music is seen and consumed in what's left of the monoculture. I actually have no problem with him being a contemptuous annoyance -- on that front he's the most successful critic ever!

Indie went from being too raw and unpolished for mainstream rock/metal to being too wussy and mannered to rock as hard as mainstream rock/metal.

Corporate indie has already been taken, so I'll go with the acceptance of MP3s as a valid paid-for sonic alternative to CDs (to the extent where it has become impossible to purchase most current hit singles in a decent sound quality), and the shitty mastering that has followed in the wake of that.

Mixtapes overtook albums as the primary outlet of music in hip hop, and ultimately that made the quality of albums go down the shitter more than label intervention or artistic decline.

^cosign

I guess, and this is just a personal thing, the extent to which music has become more of a lifestyle accessory than anything else. It's the way most people don't feel like they should have to give up any resources to have recorded music around, the way I see so many kids walking around with their friends with one iPod earbud always on. Internet music dorks who have downloaded hard drives worth of stuff that they're never going to listen to.

God I sound like such an old. I don't want to be all "music is a sacred art form" but it appalls me how many people will drop 10 bucks on a horrible film and wouldn't even consider paying a dollar for a song they like.

music has always been a lifestyle accessory

indie music has always been corporate

simon cowell always has been and always will be

people still listening to crappy music and loving it bothers me...
I use yahoo answers: music, to gauge what (mostly) younger people listen to nowadays... it sucks!

Electroclash didn't really work out (not that surprising, but still) and then just kept going and going and going producing waves of boring rock bands w/added kbds and occasional drummachines and annoying clothes.

Also Bright Eyes/Sufjan/etc, the rebirth of the boring singersongwriter

singer/songwriters have always been boring

how about booty rap? and how degrading it is to black people.

rock bands have always been boring, had added keyboards and drum machines, and work annoying clothes

in a way i think Cowell may actually have done less damage in the 00s than in the 90s. was it not he who foistered Robson & Jerome upon us back then? Will Young and Leon Lewis are a clear step up from those depths. selective memory tho perhaps.

thats LeonA obv

and obviously the followers of booty rap, white or black, are pitiful as well

The decline of great bands from the nineties into sad parodies of themselves (Foo Fighters, Metallica, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Nine Inch Nails [Ghosts? come on who are you kidding! Take drugs again, please], Audioslave [parodying both RATM and Soundgarden, and making me hate both every time I see a stone in a field], etc)

Runners up:
ubiquity of music making it just a little less special. I mean, if EVERYTHING has a soundtrack, what are you associating the music to? "Oh I love this song, it always takes me back to walking down the sidewalk by the McDonald's with my 10 piece nuggets every other day since I was four. Sniff," yeah, great. Music may risk becoming permanent elevator music. Modern grunge is already the bad background music in restaurants...

Emo has made it uncool to sing anything melancholy without first asserting one's non-emoness or sounding like a grunge or indy wannabee (they make great honey!).

Grunge sticking around as complete filler.

The radio.

American Idol being presented as good singing. Here's a hint, kiddies: IT'S NOT! Now go back to watching survivor or whatever other shill you want shoved down your throat as both innovative and cool. I'm going back to MASH reruns.

How about Rage Against the Machine not being active for the one decade they would have been useful? Maybe that's more ironic than anything else. They went from tired political activists in a nice era to non-existent in a chaotic strife-filled era. Well done, the revolution lives on. This is for the people of the...sun?

Johnny Cash worship. ugh.

Dance music being bump n grind music. Someone come up with a better dance than superman, please.

Or maybe the doubling of gas prices making me not have money to spend to buy albums wholesale.

Oh, and all those damn kids on my lawn (shakes walking stick, rocks back in chair, falls asleep)...

CaptainLorax is my single biggest gripe or disappointment

It's just remarkable how Cowell is singlemindedly intent on not only pretending that the last fifty years of popular music never happened but actively trying to erase them. Back to polite Dickie Valentines and Alma Cogans who are clean and smartly dressed and never answer back and sing songs that everyone can enjoy from eight to eighty (if nowhere in between).

Cutting insight from n/a up in here.

It's just remarkable how Cowell is singlemindedly intent on not only pretending that the last fifty years of popular music never happened but actively trying to erase them. Back to polite Dickie Valentines and Alma Cogans who are clean and smartly dressed and never answer back and sing songs that everyone can enjoy from eight to eighty (if nowhere in between).

-- Dingbod Kesterson, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 15:30 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

You sure you're not thinking of Kanye West?

Have you ever seen Simnon Cowell and Kanye West in the same room at the same time? I THINK NOT! hmmm...

I guess most popular music nowadays is not for me, and I don't like it, or the genre it belongs to. But that was true before 2000; it's not really a new development, so I can only name the fact's persistence.

I could nominate the world's failure to make me a pop legend somewhere where the lines meet that connect Ira Gershwin and Robert Quine, or Hal David and Terry Bickers, but I don't really blame the world - in truth I haven't made much effort.

Actually most of the things I don't like about pop don't bother me as much as they did (eg in early days of ilx) - they don't seem to impinge on my life anymore, somehow; I am more isolated or protected from them, perhaps I now nestle in a niche where they do not really touch me.

So the one thing that disappoints me would indeed be the end of my 2nd point - the fact that I haven't spent the decade making records which a few other people, let alone me, might have loved and admired. Partly my fault, partly just fate and life, and somehow not the end of the world.

Cutting insight from n/a up in here.

-- call all destroyer, Wednesday, August 6, 2008 2:31 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

dang, sorry they weren't up to trenchant standards set by the ILM superstarz

what is music other than a lifestyle accessory, for real?

I dunno I've been listening to a lot of like Ayler and Pharaoh Sanders lately and it's like does anyone today make music that is so sincere yet totally fucked? And if so would anyone respond to them the way Ayler and Sanders were critically received (at least by some) at the time?

I dunno is film or visual art or whatever the fuck else a lifestyle accessory?

life... style.... accessory

I think music people listen to, can say a lot about who they are.

Marcello is actually OTM for once. Pop Idol is surely the most annoying thing about 00s. And, no, it isn't like manufactured pop is a new thing. In fact, I might have gone for boy/girl bands as one of the most annoying things about the 90s. But it has become so extremely dominant. It is like having creative control doesn't mean anything anymore.

In the early 80s, you had acts who were very much obviously pop stars. Their music was obviously pop, not rock. They wanted to be pop stars, and wanted to have commercial success. Yet, they had creative control. They had their own style, wrote their own material, were in control to a much bigger extent than today's Idol stars are.

what is music other than a lifestyle accessory, for real?
-- n/a

An event?

I dunno I've been listening to a lot of like Ayler and Pharaoh Sanders lately and it's like does anyone today make music that is so sincere yet totally fucked?

yes

I dunno is film or visual art or whatever the fuck else a lifestyle accessory?

yes

And if so would anyone respond to them the way Ayler and Sanders were critically received (at least by some) at the time?

i "dunno" what this means

i like pinefox's answer

i'm still trying to think of my own

re 'lifestyle accessory', music's 'portability' became a legitimate/realised concept for our generation, from personal players to 'no moving parts' digital freedom - i see what n/a means on that basis

Autotune

It's not their fault per se, but I blame U2 for kicking off a chain of bad things (and I like U2). When "All That You Can't Leave Behind" blew up, making them one of the only "Rolling Stone"-friendly mega-star bands from the 80's and 90's to continue their success into the 00's -- and possibly even eclipsing it -- it cemented the notion (in the minds of industry types) that at the end of the day, only established superstar acts were worth a damn, taking us down the road to $100M LiveNation deals for acts who don't need the money or exposure while everyone else is left in the cold and wondering if they'll still have a record deal in a year's time (yes, I'm generalizing).

I miss Pharaoh Sanders' beard. If more people made music AND grew beards, I'd probably forgive anything they wrote. I mean, who can really hate ZZ Top? They're so...fluffy

it's less about him that it is his shows being the byword for how music is seen and consumed in what's left of the monoculture.

What monoculture?

Boy/girl bands seem less powerful today then they ever were.

Individual icons, esp certain black Americans, seem more powerful than ever before (even Michael Jackson, who probably never experienced control like perhaps Kanye and Beyonce do now).

these are good things no?

British music media particularly on radio and television being so conservative and conformist and crap

If more people made music AND grew beards

Lots of them do and they're usually shite

x-post I "know" I don't agree with you about art forms as lifestyle accessory--I think they have a little more value than that.

Blueski that's kind of what I mean re: portability. It sounds fucking lame to say but it's kind of too easy to treat music in this really casual and detached way all the time.

A "good things" thread would be a good idea!

What monoculture?

Please to note I said 'what's left of the monoculture.'

If more people made music AND grew beards

Lots of them do and they're usually shite

-- Tom D.
I forgive them.

Please to note I said 'what's left of the monoculture.'

I know. But the question still stands. When was there ever a monoculture?

the timidity/incompetence of the music industry re: digital developments, maybe

When was there ever a monoculture?

MUST we play this tedious game?

Inasmuch as there was a confluence of mass-media outlets in the latter half of the twentieth century combined with the fact that a small number of companies in general controlled widespread access and consumption, the monoculture existed as a construct and still has an obvious influence. Deal.

it isn't like manufactured pop is a new thing. In fact, I might have gone for boy/girl bands as one of the most annoying things about the 90s. But it has become so extremely dominant.

This is such arse and I don't know where people are looking when they make this arguments. The actual % of reality TV-derived music on any one top 40 is pretty small at almost any given time, right? Meanwhile, looking from a personal perspective of someone who doesn't actively keep up with the charts, without being totally cut off from them, I haven't knowingly heard a song derived from one of these programmes all year

Thanks, Blueski -- peace, brother.

I think monoculture is a real danger/consequence

If it's any consolation to you, Cap'n, that Yahoo! Answers thing made me laugh out loud

I think music people listen to, can say a lot about who they are.

Crap.

No reality tv shows no Girls Aloud/Liberty X Will Young had a couple good singles, Kelly Clarkson there's more. Most of the forgettable crap really just disappears immediately.

I think music people listen to, can say a lot about who they are.

Crap.

are you serious, explain

Inasmuch as there was a confluence of mass-media outlets in the latter half of the twentieth century combined with the fact that a small number of companies in general controlled widespread access and consumption

Keyword: inasmuch because "a confluence of mass-media outlets" was well into gear long before 1950.

the monoculture existed as a construct and still has an obvious influence

Agreed (although I don't completely agree about how it was constructed). So then my answer to the thread question is: the fact that the construct of the monoculture still has an obvious influence.

Dealing.

Good thread while it lasted.

The one thing that bothers me is that Oasis and the like have evolved gradually into institutions without ever going through a period of general ridicule. The other thing that bothers me is the children of stars becoming effortless stars in their own right, but that isn't music-specific

Good God, that is one seriously big-looking head. Simon Cowell's in that photo, I mean.

So then my answer to the thread question is: the fact that the construct of the monoculture still has an obvious influence.

-- Kevin John Bozelka,

Still waiting for the home recording revolution. But with radio playing less and less a role in making hits, and singles free to listen online legally at places like myspace or free.napster, is it only a matter of time before the big labels are just funding tours? Will jagermeister be a bigger player than capitol?

I guess you can't drop capitol into an energy drink and chug...

Basically this boils down to the genuine anti-mainstream, experimental stuff no longer even threatening the charts or the public consciousness. Even in the late 90's good bands like Blur were top dogs. Nowadays most people think the new Portishead album is, like, the most futuristic thing music has to offer. Sorry, but it sounds like it was made more or less at the same time as the others. And that's a rare example of a fairly (but not significantly) experimental album that actually made it through to a little weeny bit of public recognition.

Dom's initial point about trying different genres as opposed to mastering one is a debate I'd very much like to see, because I both agree and disagree with it depending upon the circumstances. Maybe he'd like to start a thread?

the timidity/incompetence of the music industry re: digital developments, maybe

god yes, i think this may be it for me. artistic qualms are fairly constant but this has frustrated me more than anything else after nearly 9 years of downloading (woah). but progress IS being made, however slowly, so at least it's heading rightwards.

Also, the UK regressing (or at least just failing to keep up and adapt with) and being significantly overshadowed by US, France, Germany, Sweden and others when it came to the kind of music I like (or that you could love without also acknowledging a whole heap of problems) was a bummer for me. Majority of my favourite 00s albums all from non-Brits. I live in a wider musical world than I did ten years ago but still.

Sanders and Ayler? Well the soulboys claimed Pharaoh and the Wire got Ayler but nobody has really "got" either tbh; their stuff doesn't get played except very rarely and usually accompanied by Public Announcement Warning-type DJ preludes about how this is really accessible, no really. The free thing goes on but it's got little to do with jazz now and a lot to do with certain wealthy post-rock backers looking to bend it to their own agendas. Or in Europe it's just become another career. See Joe Boyd's very pertinent sleevenote to the recently issued 1969 Chris McGregor Group session Up To Earth.

ok what ISN'T a "lifestyle accesory"? is it just a ulitmately meaningless term for anything that can be consumed?

The one thing that bothers me is that Oasis and the like have evolved gradually into institutions without ever going through a period of general ridicule.

this is a reasonable objection. funny that they got to #1 again and again with such ease after the third album whereas Coldplay (active since the beginning of this decade) only just managed this a few weeks ago finally (not that i give a shit about them much).

also Louis i don't know if anyone has made much of 'Third's futuristic qualities really. i don't believe it has these. the majority of praise has been for the accomplishment and execution rather than any sense of innovation.

Maybe for intelligent listeners such as yourself, but the gutter presses are all making out like they've dragged alt music into the 21st century.

Not sure what "experimental music" means anymore

xpost to Captain Lorax

Of course it may say something about your age or background or who you hang around with, but the idea that musical taste, or any expression of taste for that matter, says something about your worth as a person seems fatuous to me. But maybe that wasn't what you meant.

So the answers on this thread about how this or that style of music are popular appears a weird thing to be unhappy about.

The points about what isn't happening that you'd like to be, or about sound quality, or distribution/economics, seem more otm.

Oasis got to #1 again and again in the McFly sense.

I can see how certain styles of production becoming ubiquitous (or hot mastering or whatever) would be a problem, as then music you could otherwise love might be being ruined, in your eyes (ears).

Which reminds me; Cowell using altered/reduced market conditions to pretend that Westlife having 98 number ones are as important as the Beatles having 17.

I'm not sure I really want to hear 'experimental music'.

[this has frustrated me more than anything else after nearly 9 years of downloading (woah). but progress IS being made, however slowly, so at least it's heading rightwards.]
what do you mean? what is the problem and how has it been addressed?

[Also, the UK regressing (or at least just failing to keep up and adapt with) and being significantly overshadowed by US, France, Germany, Sweden and others when it came to the kind of music I like (or that you could love without also acknowledging a whole heap of problems)]
what does this parenthetical clause mean? what sort of problems can there be with music you love?

my answer: the generalized sense of malaise and fatigue and reduced hopes that's stricken all genres, and nobody has been able to give it a name.

Grindie?

my answer: the generalized sense of malaise and fatigue and reduced hopes that's stricken all genres, and nobody has been able to give it a name.

-- goole, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 16:22 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

Believe this is "post-9/11"

Really? Pop seems pretty healthy to me at the moment, and hip hop in particular is going through a seriously purple patch. Thankfully I sent malaise, fatigue and reduced hopes packing from my life ages ago so maybe that's the answer.

my answer: the generalized sense of malaise and fatigue and reduced hopes that's stricken all genres, and nobody has been able to give it a name.

-- goole, Wednesday, August 6, 2008 3:22 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

this is called "you're getting old"

I don't hear SO many albums these days that are genuinely attempting to take music forward. Real ambition is low, although it exists in certain discrete quarters. I think this lull is temporary.

Sorry attempts at zings aside, I can't help feeling that Mark Ronson embodies a lot of what's bad about popular music at the moment, although I'm finding it hard to articulate why.

the gutter presses are all making out like they've dragged alt music into the 21st century.

Bands get hailed as innovative alt-music saviours all the time (Radiohead, Wilco, Flaming Lips, etc.) even though they're just recycling years-old stuff from other bands ... anyway, 99.9% of pop music consumers couldn't care less about what is innovative or groundbreaking, and by definition only a tiny fraction of pop music can be innovative, so I don't think this part of the discussion has much to do with pop trends in the big picture.

massively moneyed supercunt who buys fame and chart positions despite having no musical integrity or talent whatsoever, microcosm of how the charts and the marketing machines work

that a decent articulation?

Radiohead, Wilco and The Flaming Lips were not saviours, but they were all very distinctive, talented, and original. They were not recycling but updating, refining, dare I say improving.

this is called "you're getting old"

-- n/a, Wednesday, August 6, 2008 10:24 AM (3 minutes ago)

hardly! 1984 was better than 1974. (and no it's not "cyclical" either...)

x-post to JGO

Not just the fact he's young, rich, famous and a douche though, it's the way he's congratulated by nearly everyone for making ersatz coffee table soul music.

nope I'm still unhappy that booty music is super popular and so it crap-rock and crap-pop.

I think Ronson is my least favourite "musician" of the decade for those very reasons, but the charting indie of Britain is the single biggest malaise (for me).

people still listening to crappy music and loving it bothers me...

The great thing about this statement is that it can be true no matter who the speaker is or what type of music he/she prefers.

Do you think there's something inherently 00s about Ronson though, other than that he covers songs from the last few years?

xpost

ronson = 00s jamiroquai

Not that good

i mind la famille ronson a lot less since lilo started boning samantha, though not to the extent of willingly listening to their music

Well he bucks the whole "democracy of music" fallacy, and does so in a manner that is particularly galling due to his complete disregard for musical value ahead of fame and exploitation. I think he would only have found such an audience in this decade.

x-post

I think the level of critical acclaim he's had is greater than it would have been in previous decades. Jamiroquai's a good comparison, except critics hated him.

I quite like that Oo Wee single he did with Ghostface.

Anyway, biggest development of 00s is that pretty much anyone can make any style of music imaginable and find an audience for it, somewhere. Which is a good thing.

But given that, the paucity of ambition, or the ambition to "make it" rather than to make something, is pretty depressing.

Also, amid the cornucopia of micro-scenes and genres and one-off auteurs, maybe it's harder to care about the big picture. Or maybe the big picture isn't that great, although there has been so much to love in so many genres.

this waffley but:
what do you mean? what is the problem and how has it been addressed?

this is in specific reference to MP3s (and similar digital formats) and how their cost, quality and movement has been controlled by the industry. the problem is essentially that their beliefs do not match my own, ranging from what should be made available, and when and where (licensing issues as a relic of a pre-internet world), to inconsistent pricing (it has been difficult for owners and sellers to come to terms with the intrinsic value of art as data as opposed to format production and presentation costs) to the persistence of technological innovations aimed at restricting accessibility of a format free of the more established constraints. the problem is being addressed as both the market opens up (more and more people willing to pay to download music) and artists, labels, publishers etc. recognise the benefits of a more laissez-faire attitude to digital distribution and appropriation (e.g. do people really need to pay for a license to play downloaded music in DJ sets?) .

what sort of problems can there be with music you love?
i have noticed with a lot of recent British artists i like i feel this sense that the appeal and interest comes more from recognising and being excited by their potential rather than the actual quality of their art as it stands. obv not limited to UK acts in question but becomes a key issue as i feel this country 'underperforms' in certain areas, against my wishes.

"albums" hyuk

what is there to connect Ronson with Jamiroquai at all other than the 'white british face of funky' aspect?

lol "british"

I don't watch tv and don't go to bad places. Things I might find irritating about music I don't come across, I don't find anything particularly inescapable about music or culture and there is lots of music I love coming out the whole time and things to go see (Matthias Tanzmann on Saturday hopefully). Maybe at earlier times certain things might have been irritating but I don't feel bothered. I think the last 3 years have been a golden age for music!

great news! Mark Ronson is producing the new Kaiser Chiefs album!

what is there to connect Ronson with Jamiroquai at all other than the 'white british face of funky' aspect?

-- blueski, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 15:51 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

That's exactly what connects them!

great news! Mark Ronson is producing the new Kaiser Chiefs album!

-- I know, right?, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 15:55 (43 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

It's like we're reaching some singularity point of awfulness.

If more people made music AND grew beards

Lots of them do and they're usually shite

-- Tom D., Wednesday, August 6, 2008 2:47 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

yeah wtf beards have done tookover underground american rock in the 00s!

Radiohead, Wilco and The Flaming Lips were not saviours, but they were all very distinctive, talented, and original. They were not recycling but updating, refining, dare I say improving.

Very true.

Updating, refining and improving what?

Radiohead fair enough but Wilco and Flaming Lips are just coffee table muzak for guilty Wire readers.

hang on i thought that was sarcastic? the post about rhead, flips, wilco being distinctive and original?

can't see how Flaming Lips improved anything this decade other than their own personal coffers

I understand the temptation to blame "malaise and fatigue and reduced hopes", but I'm more inclined to point the finger at purists, formalism and a tendency to look backward for inspiration.

Much of the indie scene has become "very boring", with record labels pushing bands playing "indie by numbers", the Kaiser Chiefs have said.

Singer Ricky Wilson said some bands "didn't seem to be enjoying themselves" and were "going through the motions".

He told the BBC that the band - one of Britain's biggest indie groups - had made their third album "weird and fresh and radical" in response.

The album, Off With Their Heads, is released in the UK on 13 October.

Their new single, Never Miss A Beat, will come out a week before.

"Indie bands are big, so a lot of record companies are pushing indie bands and going 'we've got one and they dress in vests'," Wilson said. "That indie by numbers is boring."

Songwriter and drummer Nick Hodgson added: "It's very, very boring."

Wilson continued: "We're not going to point fingers or name names, but we've noticed that [other bands] didn't seem to be enjoying themselves on their new records, they seemed to be going through the motions."

-- The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 10:29 (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

bearing the above in mind, these people deserve death

also I'm not talking about post-millennial flaming lips ffs

can't see how Flaming Lips improved anything this decade other than their own personal coffers

-- blueski, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 16:59 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

Dunno, lead singer got Livorno their first top half finish in Serie A for something like 30 years.

i think 90s and 00s chart quality has been roughly the same at least. the return of climbers feels too contrived thanks to various factors but downloads integration was a logical move. the diversity of the chart now may still be an illusion tho (if they're black it's urban pop/rap, if they're pretty white women it's MOR pop, if they're white men with skanky hair it's post-indie pop rock...plus ca change?)

Female singer-songwriters.... fuck that, singer-songwriters in general

Female singer-songwriters.... fuck that, singer-songwriters in general

actually yeah i'm pretty sure that the quality of female singer songwriters in the mainstream or semi-mainstream has really really nosedived this decade

I think the thing that most bothers me about this decade is... the fact that people will accept anything if it's free. Or offered easily. That people will pay to poison themselves and post pictures of their poisoned faces on Facebook but that they wont pay for a record. The dumbing down of the gatekeepers. The increasing compulsion to give people what they want as quickly as possible. The loss of delay of gratification.

I'm not nailing this.

This morning, driving to work, radio 5Live - asking British Olympians what music they like to listen to in order to 'get pumped up to compete', and one athlete said "my taste in music is pretty eclectic, from Supertramp to Coldplay" and I swore lots and said nasty things about not wanting to know about what music people who don't care about music listen to. The fact that... everyone's opinion is taken as valid now, seemingly, even if there's no experience or thought as its basis.

That dynamic range compression thing irritates too but really that's just a symptom. The 'music all the time, everywhere' thing is part of it. Beamed directly into your cerebellum, bypassing your feelings.

Can I say "The Lex & Geir" or is that bad form?

Bad form.

Too Much of Nothing.

Nick's probably just nailed the root cause of my own woes.

I think there's more good music out there than ever before, but there's also more bad music out there too, and it takes up all the attention and time of the mainstream media.

The fact that recent additions to the canon have, by and large, done nothing to expand the nature of the canon.

The fact that we still have a canon, actually.

one athlete said "my taste in music is pretty eclectic, from Supertramp to Coldplay"

Ha, ha - who was this?

scik otm.

That's almost the same quote as my drummer said once, except his two bands were the Senseless Things and the Levellers xp

matt otm about scik, that latest post of his is word-perfect

This morning, driving to work, radio 5Live - asking British Olympians what music they like to listen to in order to 'get pumped up to compete', and one athlete said "my taste in music is pretty eclectic, from Supertramp to Coldplay" and I swore lots and said nasty things about not wanting to know about what music people who don't care about music listen to. The fact that... everyone's opinion is taken as valid now, seemingly, even if there's no experience or thought as its basis.

Yeah it's not like, say, Shoot magazine did exactly this with footballers every week in the 80s or anything

i like hearing about what music athletes like! especially if they say why. i thought kelly holmes using alicia keys' 'if i ain't got you' as inspiration to win olympic gold was kind of fascinating.

The fact that we still have a canon, actually.

this is tru tho

The old cliche was that there would be a 'big event' every twleve years, and maybe a minor one every six. Looking at e.g. festival line-ups, they're still following the line Suede started in 1992 - it's even the same bands, often. So I suppose the fact that Artful Dodger/Basement jaxx/So Solid didn't coalesce into an all-conquering behemoth is a big 00s regret. Maybe there just ain't enough young people around no more

That's almost the same quote as my drummer said once, except his two bands were the Senseless Things and the Levellers

Hold on, were you the lead singer of Thousand Yard Stare or something? (Not that I would wish this fate on you, trust me.)

the fact that Artful Dodger/Basement jaxx/So Solid didn't coalesce into an all-conquering behemoth is a big 00s regret

i'm pretty happy with how uk garage did develop in the end though, chart-conquering behemoth or not. by far the best strain of british music this decade

it's dynamic range compression for me, but I'm not sure that it's a symptom of the "music everywhere and always" problem/phenomenon - they're related for sure, but I don't know if I'd say "cause : effect." I think the digitization of sound changed the way we - all of us, like it or not - relate to music, and that compression/ubiquity are outgrowths of it. And I dislike that, because what's lost is the tendency for things to be distinctive, which is a central reason for engaging with art of any kind in the first place.

The fact that we still have a canon, actually.

i can't help but be a bit excited by oncoming end-of-decade lists because i can't see a clear winner in most departments.

The fact that so many things claw through this and sound amazing is pretty incredible when you think about it. Chris Brown single sounded like the greatest thing I've ever heard last week!

The fact that digitization has given us access to this vast library of recorded music

And made it possible to listen to so much music without ever having to hear Mark Ronson producing the Kaiser chiefs

i can't help but be a bit excited by oncoming end-of-decade lists because i can't see a clear winner in most departments.

I'm going to sweep every category

it's gonna feel so good

J0Hn D are you Afroman?

Kid A will distressingly win everything in sight.

Here is a GOOD thing about music today - I just went to Woolworths and bought, not just a Lassie video for £1, but also a 3CD set of ELVIS PRESLEY original recordings (+ a few live takes and, gosh, interviews) for £3. Well, Elvis doesn't need the ££s anymore, does he? And it sounds terrific.

i have been disappointed by the tailing off of hilarious scott stapp stories in the second half of the decade.

I dunno I've been listening to a lot of like Ayler and Pharaoh Sanders lately and it's like does anyone today make music that is so sincere yet totally fucked? And if so would anyone respond to them the way Ayler and Sanders were critically received (at least by some) at the time?

-- call all destroyer, Wednesday, August 6, 2008 2:37 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Anyway, biggest development of 00s is that pretty much anyone can make any style of music imaginable and find an audience for it, somewhere. Which is a good thing.

But given that, the paucity of ambition, or the ambition to "make it" rather than to make something, is pretty depressing.

Also, amid the cornucopia of micro-scenes and genres and one-off auteurs, maybe it's harder to care about the big picture. Or maybe the big picture isn't that great, although there has been so much to love in so many genres.

-- Jamie T Smith, Wednesday, August 6, 2008 3:44 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

John D - I don't think it's quite as simple as cause + effect with compression, no, BUT I do think that, while one drives the other to an extent, and both are symptoms of other trends, compression is often used explicitly in order to deal with the "music all the time, everywhere" idea.

J0Hn D are you Afroman?

My secret revealed!

I agree that it's taken way too long for digital distribution to work right. Pretty much everything ever recorded ought to be buyable, and albums older than a year or so ought to be available for $5 or much less.

As the number of digital files I have continues to climb, and backing up becomes increasingly tedious, I continue to think it's silly that we replicate all these files on each of our computers, instead of accessing the universal jukebox of lore. I think we're getting there, but if we can build a machine that has a chance of destroying the universe, surely we can solve digital distribution.

why should LPs older than a year cost £2.50? lots of them are better than new ones after all.

for many reasons, but mainly because mp3s don't come with a physical medium.

J0Hn D are you Afroman?

My secret revealed!

-- J0hn D., Wednesday, August 6, 2008

I had $100 riding on J0hn being Moodyman, not Afroman.

for many reasons, but mainly because mp3s don't come with a physical medium.

-- Euler, Wednesday, August 6, 2008 4:46 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

See I like this because it is good for the environment. CD cases can't be recycled.

Sanders and Ayler? Well the soulboys claimed Pharaoh and the Wire got Ayler but nobody has really "got" either tbh; their stuff doesn't get played except very rarely and usually accompanied by Public Announcement Warning-type DJ preludes about how this is really accessible, no really. The free thing goes on but it's got little to do with jazz now and a lot to do with certain wealthy post-rock backers looking to bend it to their own agendas.

Right, I get that these guys were co-opted into something else over time. I mean free was going to go the way of all subgenres but in its time some people took it v. seriously as the "new" jazz and saw a logical progression forward. It just never happened.

I think these people do exist, but no one's likely to give them the benefit of the doubt on the sincerity issue anymore. if you're making weird music, then you're probably just some cynical hipster dicking around; "sincere" gets reserved for, like, Sufjan Stevens.

Exactly! Go find an interview with Ayler, he says the most out there new age shit yet is treated with this serious aura of respect. Now someone saying the same things would get a "LOL crazy" response even from people who should know better.

It's probably too much of a generalization to say that we don't let artists "lead" us anymore? That we react to them and pigeonhole them more quickly and decisively than we used to? That's gotta be an overstatement.

Exactly! Go find an interview with Ayler, he says the most out there new age shit yet is treated with this serious aura of respect. Now someone saying the same things would get a "LOL crazy" response even from people who should know better.

We're not on LSD

Exactly! Go find an interview with Ayler, he says the most out there new age shit yet is treated with this serious aura of respect. Now someone saying the same things would get a "LOL crazy" response even from people who should know better.

oh, people've called Ayler crazy a whole lot, haven't they?

xpost Tom D. otm

I mean free was going to go the way of all subgenres but in its time some people took it v. seriously as the "new" jazz and saw a logical progression forward. It just never happened.

what never happened? same as all periods of jazz, it happened and then something else happened and then something else. some people still play it faithfully, and others incorporate it into a larger bag of tricks, and others ignore it.

The sometimes bizarre Poptimism vs Rockist critical pro-wrestling match.

that the major labels are very gradually adapting, diminishing their expectations. Wish they'd gone belly up completely, so that the back catalogs could be sold off to interests that would know how to use them intelligently in this day and age.

Artistically, the best decade for music since the 1970s. No complaints at all.

The rise of Pitchfork Media. How can you remain unbiased AND have a festival and internet-tv thing that make you money? And those reviews.. they mostly read like the author trying to show you just how cool he/she is.. playing "spot the influence" and using too many dubious adjectives.

It's not journalism.. it's just sortof devolved into an opinion blog for wannabe hipsters.

(Side Note: I played melodic percussion for 16 years, through college, and no one ever used the term 'glockenspiel'... we just called them "bells" or a "bell kit" cause we speak english and not german.)

That's weird. I've been calling them glockenspiels since I was a kid, decades ago. That's what they were called in my grade-school music classes, and what my (American) parents and friends called them. In fact, I've never heard anyone call them anything else. So there you go.

Yeah I would have said the same thing but this dude really got me thinking with his opinions on Pitchfork so I say he wins this one, contenderizer

pitchfork is pretty terrible in general but I guess they turned me on to El Guincho's Alegranza! so its not all bad

Pitchfork are so far from being the real enemy as to be laughable. I actually think their heart's in the right place, although they are apt to mark very good British albums down and American ones up.

I got no problem with Pitchfork.

My dad tried to explain how popular music isn't as good anymore because of synthesizers. I told him that writing, singing, and general style has a lot to do with it also, and he agreed.

Everything fit together so nicely back then and now we have peculiarities that don't make the music sound better (voices sound a whole lot different then in the 70s for instance). I know this doesn't have to do strictly with 00s.

No, your dad's right: it's the synthesizers.

And Pitchfork = okay because they reminded me to buy the Eat Skull record that I'd been not getting around to. Good for them.

captain lorax = nu-Geir?

Something that I've noticed that I haven't seen touched on here per se is the loss of contextual information regarding albums, exacerbated by the use of mp3 players. Think about the difference between the extensive notes on the back of an LP, or even the reduced ones that came with CDs and cassettes, and the information that is present with mp3s. Even as there is more information available, generally, it can be hard to find and is separated from the experience of listening. This is especially true for some of the sharity stuff that I've started to like, where I'll hear a recommendation or see a band that I know from comps, track down the album, and not have any idea who the personnel are or what the band was trying to do, etc. I can understand that on some level, this makes for a more music-focused listening experience, and I can appreciate that; I also understand that often, more info is available elsewhere or did not exist with the primary artifact (soul 45s are especially free of meta-information).

Shit early 2000s sexy-sexy whiteboy sex rhyming with sex and awful music poll
TS: Bullshit Hipster DJ vs. Bullshit Hipster Rappers

When was there ever a monoculture?

MUST we play this tedious game?

Inasmuch as there was a confluence of mass-media outlets in the latter half of the twentieth century combined with the fact that a small number of companies in general controlled widespread access and consumption, the monoculture existed as a construct and still has an obvious influence. Deal.

I haven't finished reading this thread yet but this response to this question is so magnificent i can't help but repeat it. Carry on.

i think the weirdest thing to me has been the segmenting of audiences and the disappearance of 'the monoculture' - or maybe its just that im now in my mid 20s and no longer connected to 'the monoculture' as it existed when i was in my teens and early 20s, but it seems like audiences are a lot more segregated, even at that level, than when i was a kid ... a lot less discourse going on between subcultures and a lot more talking over each other and playing just to a specific niche, since the fall of TRL and all that shit

and in some ways thats a good thing but i do miss certain parts of it, the idea of a common, communal pop music exp has its appeal

i mean are kids today gonna grow up and all be able to talk about katy perry songs the way we talk about sugar ray?? i dont think so ... maybe someone can come up w/ a better example though, cuz katy perry seems aimed at a specific niche

that niche being "vapid morons"

sorry for blogging

oh, cool down you

deej otm

what is TRL?

also, don't know Katy Perry or the supposed common-knowledge item Sugar Ray.

Total Request Live starring Carson whatisass

that modern rock has turned from fun and goofy pop-punk (or fun and goofy rap-metal) to turgid shit like nickelback and finger eleven

the reason i like fall out boy so much is that amongst modern rock bands they still seem like they come from the era of new found glory and blink-182

also the way that indie has turned into a lucrative thing for money execs to hump

i like to see bands i like get popular but last night i saw the preview for nick and nora's infinite playlist (uuuugh) and after it was over it was like SOUNDTRACK FEATURING: BAND OF HORSES, VAMPIRE WEEKEND, DEVENDRA BANHART, THE KILLS and it was just like (uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh)

money execs to hump

movie execs***

And the sad thing is that people love nickelback and finger eleven. am I right? these people suck? my little sister sucks for liking them also. I don't care who you are.

FEATURING: BAND OF HORSES, VAMPIRE WEEKEND, DEVENDRA BANHART, THE KILLS - that annoys me as well. what does portman see in that banhart guy... probably the fact that he isn't lazy.

i guess in a post-garden state climate the shit just doesn't seem inspired anymore? like it was always fun to make fun of zach braff for saying that the shins are life changing but i can respect him bcuz if i was writing a movie id probably try and work in some shit about music i really love (or would've, before it became a thing), and now its just like focus group stuff to try and sell records to 12 year olds

garden state is a pretty landmark film wrt what im talking about louis, dunno what you're up to

nothing rly against what you said, just that i found the expression itself bathetic and amusing

hi-fidelity came out several years before garden state IIRC

sry i mean "High Fidelity" lol whoops

but High Fidelity's sdtk is all classic rock bullshit iirc

RONG

i will now sell five copies of the three eps by the beta band

high fidelity wasn't some marketing thing, though, i mean they had stiff little fingers and royal trux and some drag city shit on the OST

1. You're Gonna Miss Me - 13th Floor Elevators
2. Everybody's Gonna Be Happy - The Kinks
3. I'm Wrong About Everything - John Wesley Harding
4. Oh! Sweet Nuthin' - The Velvet Underground
5. Always See Your Face - Love
6. Most Of The Time - Bob Dylan
7. Fallen For You - Shiela Nicholls
8. Dry The Rain - The Beta Band
9. Shipbuilding - Elvis Costello & The Attractions
10. Cold Blooded Old Times - Smog
11. Let's Get It On - Jack Black
12. Lo Boob Oscillator - Stereolab
13. Inside Game - Royal Trux
14. Who Loves The Sun - The Velvet Underground
15. I Believe (When I Fall In Love It Will Be Forever) - Stevie Wonder

ok no SLF

thats more like the almost famous soundtrack than garden state or juno or little miss sunshine

there was a SLF love-scene

jordan i think your specific twee-indie 'scene' is comprised of a very small number of movies, and hardly warrants the phrase "post-garden state climate", just sayin'

Does Garden State have to be THE movie, though? Whether or not it was first, it was clearly a big part of the mainstreaming of indie rock. What about She Don't Use Jelly? Or every indie band in the universe in every shitty Slacker/Tarantino ripoff 90s movie? Soundtrack from Love & a .45 ('94):

Flaming Lips - Turn It On
Meat Puppets - Animal
Mazzy Star - Ghost Highway
Jesus And Mary Chain - Come On
Kim Deal & Robert Pollard - Love Hurts
Reverend Horton Heat - The Devil's Chasing Me
April's Motel Room - Black 14
F.S.K. & David Lowery - Unter Dem Doppeladler
Butthole Surfers - Who Was In My Room Last Night?
Johnny Cash - Ring Of Fire
Courtney & Western - Am I In Love
Roger Miller - King Of The Road

wow that's a great record!

Yeah, movie's kinda crap tho

the point is not that garden state was using indie music in a movie, but after the garden state ost went pretty close to platinum, more movies seemed magnetized to the idea of flipping indie soundtracks for big $$$

The biggest problem I see with music today is that it's become background- shit played at starbucks, or shit that fills out a soundtrack, or shit that you hear in bars.

I think a lot of it goes back to the death of the music video. If the song isn't even selfcontained anymore, and just exists as snippets that you hear on The Hills, then what is it exactly? And fuck man, I just really miss watching music videos on TV.

I think the beginning of the end times was when TRL started not showing any complete videos at all, and would instead just show 50 seconds of them broken up with cutaways to kids yelling about how they voted for the song because their friend jessy loves it and what a great time they were having at the MTV Spring Break Clusterfuck Beach Party.

yeah, but not that many, and garden state didn't start the whole thing off, here in britain for instance the soundtrack to "trainspotting" did rather well in the mid-90s

as we approach the end of the 00s we speak of trl

AUTOTUNE.

autotune is one of my favorite popular music developments since 2000

Re: Garden State strk

I no, I'm just saying that the "indie film + indie pop" had been building for quite a while & that there were precendents (of a sort).

Plus Trainspotting OTM, though that's not quite modern American indie, either..

I wouldn't blame MTV/TRL for anything, and I don't think the decontextualization (recontextualization) of music is worth complaining about.

how many frigging abbreviations do you people have?

I think I just worked out that 'sdtk' must mean the same thing as 'OST', but still don't know what TRL is (though somebody said something about it), and ... SLF??

yeah maybe I'm just bitching because I personally love music videos.

Total Request Live starring Carson whatisass

dude pay attention

SLF = Stiff Little Fingers as ref'd in previous post

sussussussussusoutsussuspect device

It's not their fault per se, but I blame U2 for kicking off a chain of bad things (and I like U2). When "All That You Can't Leave Behind" blew up, making them one of the only "Rolling Stone"-friendly mega-star bands from the 80's and 90's to continue their success into the 00's -- and possibly even eclipsing it -- it cemented the notion (in the minds of industry types) that at the end of the day, only established superstar acts were worth a damn, taking us down the road to $100M LiveNation deals for acts who don't need the money or exposure while everyone else is left in the cold and wondering if they'll still have a record deal in a year's time (yes, I'm generalizing).

The solution is of course for the majors to look for acts with potential staying power rather than acts that they don't expect to last for more than three years at most.

Ed Banger.

The solution is of course for the majors to look for acts with potential staying power rather than acts that they don't expect to last for more than three years at most.

Yes, but that still means they have to take a risk and invest in a new artist that may or may not become a success (or may not be a success with their debut album). Instead, the majors are more likely than ever to forego any and all perceived risk and throw more money at acts that have been around for 20+ years.

"majors" lolz

Yes, but that still means they have to take a risk and invest in a new artist that may or may not become a success

Yes, it does. But they did that kind of thing before, and it pays in the long run.

Instead, the majors are more likely than ever to forego any and all perceived risk and throw more money at acts that have been around for 20+ years.

The trouble here is that those acts generate considerably more money from touring with their old material (which their fans know and love) than from recording new material (which their fans may buy to some extent, but will probably not like as much as the old stuff). The majors need to investigate more time in trying to find tomorrow's U2's, Pink Floyd's, Rolling Stones' or Bon Jovi's instead.

They should maybe invest in teaching Norwegians how to use apostrophes properly.

Maybe they should teach you Norwegian while they're at it? Or would that fraught task cost too much and break the industry once and for all?

Are you really sure they need invest time in finding tomorrow's Bon Jovi?

What Geir doesn't actually realise is that the LiveNation deals are actually going to be massively self-perpetuating, and as such bands that get one now are going to have a "Champions League 4" style grip on the recording/touring industry for the next 40 years: ie, Nickelback and Jay-Z will still be headlining stadiums in 2045.

I don't see neither Nickelback nor Jay-Z as lasting material.

Coldplay and Oasis on the other hand.

Wrong Geir, anyone have a long career these days

You see, this is a matter of timelessness. Part of the reason why U2 is the band from the 80s that has retained their live popularity best is that they never were a typical "80s band" to begin with. They always did their own thing, and have kept on doing their own thing in spite of all the changing trends. See also Iron Maiden, although personally I hate them.

So what the majors need to do is to stop searching for bands that sound "modern" and just stick to stuff that sounds like something that might have been made in the 60s or 70s or 80s.

Timelessness has nothing to with, there's lots of shit bands who keep going on and on or reform and sell out gigs

Coldplay are pretty much just a Merseybeat band, yeah.

Genesis for instance... can't get any shitter than that

http://www.last.fm/tag/timeless

I'd like to add the exponential rise in decrepit old bastards listening to or writing about or making popular music to my previously listed "things that have bothered me". In fact, it's top of the list.

Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds US Tour Dates [Started by kwhitehead, last updated 23 seconds ago] 1 new answer

FABRICLIVE at Fabric

DJ Yoda, High Contrast, Dillinja, Goldie, DJ Format, Nu:Tone, Commix, Scratch Peverts

^^^OTM, DJ Format will still be remembered long after all the other so-called "musicians" of this era have faded away.

I don't see neither Nickelback nor Jay-Z as lasting material.

Jay-Z has been selling for at least 12 years and his profile has probably never ben higher worldwide but see what you prefer to see as usual eh

when does one become decrepit? and in an ageing population, what are most people supposed to with the second half of their lives?

It's true, if anyone finds another Bon Jovi I hope they put the stone back.

I don't think Oasis have lasted terribly well.

Jay-Z has been selling for at least 12 years

But he will vanish soon unless he starts singing. Rapping is on its way out.

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00384/mystic-meg-horoscop_384331a.jpg

The Aryans Will Rise Again

Rapping is on its way out.
No doubt you've been saying this for 20 years.

As an expert on hip hop, Geir should know.

But he will vanish soon unless he starts singing. Geir Hongro is on its way out.

But he will vanish soon unless he starts szinging. Geir Hongro is on its way out.

-- Tom D., Thursday, 7 August 2008 13:44 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Top notch re-write

I don't believe that rapping is on its way out.

"Guitar groups are on their way out, Mister Epstein."

I'm more concerned about Geir's knowledge of "the kids."

http://www.bizarrerecords.com/letters/pics/minipops.jpg

Contains proper singing.

Approved by Philip Larkin.

rave synths in rap & r&b

"The majors need to investigate more time in trying to find tomorrow's U2's, Pink Floyd's, Rolling Stones' or Bon Jovi's instead."

Or just wait for indies and mini-majors to find 'em, then poach them. See: White Stripes (though, in fairness, they're not as huge as Bon Jovi).

I hate the climate the the micro-genre/internet niches have inspired. The rollercoaster of attitudes toward music has never been more schizophrenic and hostile. At least this is what I think about when I think of the backlash toward groups who enjoy moderate success like Clap Your Hands and Arcade Fire, the fact everyone acts like they never enjoyed an electroclash/snap music/crunk song 5 years ago, techno/house/disco heads at each others throats (though this is typical of the entire dance music scene), the rise of hipster-hop and the backlash against it, "Hip Hop is Dead" people, anti-"Starbucks music" reactions, blaming Gadren State, MySpace bands (both American and British varieties), etc.

I don't think any of the above attitudes are invalid. Most are spot on. I just think that the speed at which the internet thrusts all of music in general has made the scene a crazy bipolar bitch who's playing you some new music one moment and slapping your face with her ring turned inwards the next. I feel like the caffeine rush of any trend and the crash that comes after it (say, like electroclash) would have been a much slower ascent and descent if they had happened 10 years ago.

Of course, my thoughts don't speak to the quality of the music at all - just the climate that surrounds it. If I had to speak about actual MUSIC that's disappointed me, well, that's easy. Post-2000 Biggie Smalls music.