The Stooges vs. Black Sabbath

haha you daft bastard

the twin towers of rock

trick question. black sabbath IS god

if you're a monotheistic sort

Don't be stupid. The Stooges vs. any band in the world = The Stooges.

Except the Velvet Underground.

Sabbath are not the Velvet Underground, ergo Stooges = MADE OF WIN.

that is a mighty peculiar calculus you have developed

Sabbath > Stooges > VU

Just my opinion, like.

if the Coop couldn't take down the Sabs, no way the Stooges will...

has Iggy vs. Ozzy been done yet?...(I'm pretty sure rolling around in broken glass trumps the snorting of ant-hills)...

fuck, man, "makes sense" does not equal "should be done"

so what would would the corresponding "Velvet Underground vs" thread be?

well, I just asked about the vu vs stones poll on the other thread so there you go.

also alice cooper doesn't have the same claim to primacy/influence that the stooges do.

when does this close? next friday? good, that is a hell of a lot of time to consider my answer.

wow.

Ha ha it is the CALCULUS OF ROCK.

i've just sent a link to this thread to a friend so he can ponder it too. i think he'll go for black sabbath, but i can't actually be sure. just as i'm edging towards the stooges. but ... gah.

funhouse is to rock albums what the godfather is to film in these here parts

Sabbath are freaking NURSERY SCHOOL compared with the Stooges. Just get out of here. :-D

Bill Magill's gonna show up soon, and man is he gonna be pissed!

Despite some superficial similarities of sound, I feel this is apples versus oranges in terms of feel, who the bands were, what their general outlook was, and what they achieved.

If it comes down to it, I 'respect' Sabbath, but I haven't really listened to them much since school. (I sometimes feel I should down load the catalogue, and apply myself to it.) There's an utter bleakness about the early stuff that I find hard to be around.

Bill Magill's gonna show up soon, and man is he gonna be pissed!

haha yeah that's what I was thinking

(xpost) I've been trying, and I find it hard to take Sabbath seriously on some level. I "respect" them, they're obviously a great band with some fantastic songs. But there's a vague "pantomime" element there - sort of like there is with Bowie. Don't get me wrong, "Paranoid" is a great track, but lines like "people think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time"... It's like Ozzy is Widow Twanky or something. With the Stooges I don't get that feeling, they are far more "serious".

this is apples versus oranges

these are two bands that took rock-as-bludgeon to logical primal ends with lyrical content designed to register with every pimply teenage shut-in from here to eternity

not to mention they've both aged well

how much of the sabbath bashing / disinterest from the uk folks is a class thing?

stoooges

I don't think it's a class thing, so much as a metal thing. It's OK for indie kids to like the Stooges.

can of worms, opened. xp

it's not okay for indie kids to like sabbath??? fucked up.

its true when i see a kid w/vans and a sabbath tshirt im like bro u got to choose

then i make them remove one of the items

that's right I went there

With the Stooges I don't get that feeling, they are far more "serious".

I half-wrote and erased something about how sabbath's supernatural leanings turns off secular minded folks. I've run into this with people I know, and christgau gets at it in his sabbath reviews.

on black sabbath: "I've been worried something like this was going to happen since the first time I saw a numerology column in an underground newspaper."

on paranoid: "I suppose I could enjoy them as camp, like a horror movie--the title cut is definitely screamworthy. After all, their audience can't take that Lucifer bit seriously, right? Well, depends on what you mean by serious. Personally, I've always suspected that horror movies catharsized stuff I was too rational to care about in the first place."

Serious? The Stooges did a lot of songs which are basically about partying, Sabbath, not so much.

"now I'm gonna be twenty two. I say 'oh my' and uh, 'boo- hoo'" vs. "people think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time"

"My pain is stupid and boring, and also sad" vs. "my pain is sad"

haha it's Flipper vs. Joy Division all over again

OTFM!

It's not the supernatural stuff, it's that a lot of Sabbath stuff has this sense of, I don't know, lightheartedness about it, that the Stooges don't have. Same with Alice Cooper. Both Sabbath and Coop frequently have a comic book quality to their songs ("Ironman" springs to mind, as does "Ballad of Dwight Fry"). There's also this feeling of standing slightly back from the subject matter and looking at it through an objective eye - in "Paranoid" Ozzy is simultaneously sympathising with and mocking the character he's singing.

For some reason, I've never read either of those Sabbath songs in that way. I can see that you could, but Ozzy sounded so miserable.

maybe "serious" is the wrong term. I'm thinking in terms of a grownup listening to sabbath and saying "I can't take this seriously."

stooges are about partying and being wild but they're not talking about fairies and satan.

in "Paranoid" Ozzy is simultaneously sympathising with and mocking the character he's singing.

sabbath are uber-dour. interpreting them as mocking or making fun runs the risk of bringing something to the table that's not there. it makes you sound like an ironic indie kid!

hmmm yeah I agree with Soukesian. Altho whenever I pay attention to the words to "Fairies Wear Boots" I crack up. Not sure that's the effect Ozzy was going for with his anguished yowling though.

(xpost) Well it's the choice of words. "Finished with my woman...", come on! I get the feeling that Ozzy just wants to tell the character to pull himself together.

I can't see Ozzy as being anything other than straightforward there (or anywhere). If anything, it sounds more like an "I get girls" kind of dishonest,nonchalant boast from the kind of outsider/loser Ozzy apparently really was (Iommi used to genuinely beat him up for his lunch money, right?).

three albums of awesomeness vs. less than a dozen songs over two or three albums

STOOGES WIN

Sabbath invented Metal. Stooges AND VU evaporate in a puff of smoke.

in a weird way this boils down to funhouse vs. paranoid for me

I can't see Ozzy as being anything other than straightforward there (or anywhere). If anything, it sounds more like an "I get girls" kind of dishonest, nonchalant boast from the kind of outsider/loser Ozzy apparently really was (Iommi used to genuinely beat him up for his lunch money, right?).

interpreting an ode to anhedonia as boasting is crazytalk.

I'm so depressed I can't relate to women! jealous?

Sabbath > Stooges but, Iggy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ozzy

xpost nah, I meant it like he was saying "I had a girl, but she just wasn't for me, so I ditched her like it weren't no thing. I didn't need her." I actually don't feel like Ozzy spent a whole lot of time writing/thinking about his lyrics, but that line just kind of has that offhand quality to it.

Black Sabbath.

within the context of the song that doesn't scan right. it's about someone who's so depressed they can't relate to other people, not someone who's so depressed they think they're better than everybody else.

xp

Finished with my woman
'cause she couldn't help me with my mind
People think I'm insane
Because I am frowning all the time

All day long I think of things
But nothing seems to satisfy
Think I'll lose my mind
If I don't find something to pacify

Can you help me, occupy my brain?
Oh yeah!

I need someone to show me
The things in life that I can't find
I can't see the things that make true
Happiness, I must be blind

Make a joke and I will sigh
And you will laugh and I will cry
Happiness I cannot feel
And love to me is so unreal

And so as you hear these words
Telling you now of my state
I tell you to enjoy life
I wish I could but it's too late

it's that a lot of Sabbath stuff has this sense of, I don't know, lightheartedness about it

?!

xpost yeah, like I said, I don't feel like he spent tons of time on his lyrics, and I don't think you should read too much into his them, either. I was trying to follow snoball's example, like "If I were to read into them, here's what I'd try..."

You're right,though.

I thought Bill Ward wrote most of the lyrics?

oh, that freewheelin' lighthearted black sabbath

Ward definitely wrote "Paranoid." I remember seeing interview footage where he explained he wasn't even really sure what the word meant, just that everyone was walking around saying "Man, I'm paranoid" all the time.

haha

another similarity between sabbath & stooges is they both have so-stupid-they're-smart lyrics. it might sound like they're yelling out the first thing that made it to paper before rehearsal but when you get down to it the lyrics are really witty & visceral.

It's exactly the kind of wit that you get when you start yelling out the first thing that comes to mind, that when you look at afterwards makes you go "haha that's brilliant! I'm keeping it." They are great. I can't tell if it's so-stupid-they're-smart or so-smart-they're-stupid half the time.

I think that probably the closest Stooges song to "Paranoid" is "No Fun", because I think it has the same "I sympathise with you and understand where you're coming from and why you might feel this way" message, while as the same time also saying "on the other hand, you might want to , you know, get up and do something about it".

Altho whenever I pay attention to the words to "Fairies Wear Boots" I crack up.

this is one of the funniest lyrics in rock history:

so I went to the doctor to see what he could give me
he said "son, son, you've gone too far
cuz smokin' and trippin' is all that you do"
yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhh

I think both bands are also seen as dumb musically, but were actually very innovative.

true ^

you could probably swap some of their early negative reviews and not know the difference

Still, like Flipper/JD - close, but all the difference in the world.

Awww Bill Magill hasn't posted yet

This is the showdown the Stooges deserved. I didn't think vs the Velvets was any contest.

They lose again, though.

finally an actually tough poll

i think i'd give the edge to sabbath. they have a bit more emotional range, far more than they're given credit for.

I have not voted yet. The argument that Sabbath "invented an entire genre" (even if not strictly true) kinda makes me lean in their direction... while there were other precedents for metal/heavy rock w/a dose of Satanism (Blue Cheer, Witchcraft, Zep, etc.) its pretty impossible to imagine the genre without them. But "influence" is a canard, I know I know... otoh I actually do listen to Sabbath a lot more than I listen to the Stooges so maybe that's the real legitimate barometer here.

This thread reminded me that I intended to go in the bedroom and get out Funhouse and play it.

I'm UK based and it's nothing to do with class - it's got a lot more to do with gender and sexuality. Sabbath is just such... little boy rock while the Stooges are something much more complex - Iggy's gender ambiguity and sexual confusion affects me in a way that Ozzy just seems like a pantomime dame. I think Iggy actually *knows* what it feels like for a girl, which makes me relate to their music a lot more than Sabbath's "we are English boys and we are afraid of women" routine.

But, you know... I might just be the only woman on this thread, mind you! :-P

"Ward definitely wrote "Paranoid." I remember seeing interview footage where he explained he wasn't even really sure what the word meant, just that everyone was walking around saying "Man, I'm paranoid" all the time."

Close, but it was the other member of the rythym section, Geezer Butler, who wrote about 90% of the lyrics on the first 8.

I actually really like the Stooges, but it's Sabbath in a cakewalk here.

"...little boy rock while the Stooges are something much more complex"

I always felt the complete opposite. Also, i don't hear the "afraid of women" thing. they never really sang about women-they sang about their fears of much darker stuff, ie satanism (Black Sabbath), war (War Pigs), heroin (Hand of Doom), complete and total isolation (Into the Void and Supernaut) and the world being destroyed (Hole in the Sky). Those are some pretty big topics, and deftly handled by the Sabs, in my opinion.

I think Iggy actually *knows* what it feels like for a girl,

why would you think this? Iggy has always struck me as deeply masculine.

and yeah Sabbath pretty much isn't interested in women, period.

(xxpost) I think (I think I think I think damn I keep saying that!) this is probably why I prefer the Stooges over Sabbath (although the latter are getting heavy rotation at the moment as they are loaded into WinAmp right now and the Stooges are not). The Stooges operate at much more of a street level, dealing in the same topics as Sabbath, but in more realistic terms. Iggy is singing about situations that are real or could be real, and that just appeals to me more. And that's the reason I prefer the Velvets over the Stooges - same street level reality, but with the VU it has these extra layers of complexity and detail.

Lyrical themes aside, I think Sabbath just blows the Stooges out of the water sonically. The Stooges first album sounds pretty thin, Funhouse is potent, but Raw Power is strange. On the other hand, most Sabbath just kicks all sorts of ass.

skinny ass, fat ass, you name it

holy fuck I feel like I'm disarming bomb. IS IT THE RED ONE OR THE BLACK ONE TICK TICK TICK TICK

srsly i hate the word overrated but i just don't see the appeal of the stooges especially placed next to vu or sabbath. happy to vote against em twice.

http://www.onlyfunk.com/Affiches/James%20Brown/Oeuvre/Slaughter

I'm watching live vids of both band one of them is enormously pwning the other in terms of performance, and I don't mean on a technical level. Even the vids where Iggy is like fucking 60. I haven't got to the Dio-era shit yet, though.

Stooges. I do like the Sabs but heavy metal in general has never meant too much to me.

I kinda wanna say the same thing, but Sabbath has enough blues in their sound that they appeal to me on a pretty similar level. I'm still torn.

You arrive at the party, 'Funhouse' is playing, and you just know . .

You arrive at the party, 'Paranoid' is playing, and you just know . .

Does this formulation work here?

Ach, Stooges for me anyway. Ozzy sounds like a man forever trapped inside his own brain. Iggy is more like a man who has smashed his way out with a broken bottle.

Close, but it was the other member of the rythym section, Geezer Butler, who wrote about 90% of the lyrics on the first 8.
Thanks for clearing that up. I think its a common misconception that Ozzy wrote the lyrics and I knew that wasn't right.

Asheton Bros vs. Geezer'n Bill?

ASHETON BROS ASHETONE RBOS ASHETON BROOOSSSSSSS

Dudes now how to rock, dudes know how to partay. Pure class.

Maaaan...I think I'm going with the Stooges, as pained as I am to choose. There's talk of Sabbath being more virile sonically, but I'm not sure I agree seeing as the Stooges were far more raucous and disorderly and cocky and adventurous, and they sure as hell had deadly riffage, too, from both Ashton and Williamson. They put on a much better show and Iggy sang about his dick instead of wizards. It all just holds more appeal for me (err, ahem). I listen to Funhouse and Raw Power more than anything by Sabbath. And as much awesome fun as it is, as a matter of personal preference/aesthetic, the comic book satanism vibe is the final nail that's keeping me from voting for BS.

lol masonic boom :)

"Asheton Bros vs. Geezer'n Bill?"

I'm on record throughout ILM that I would take Geezer and Bill over pretty much anybody.

from ILMs '70s albums poll:

84. Iggy and the Stooges - Raw Power
63. Black Sabbath - Paranoid
19. The Stooges - Fun House

gee, i wonder which band will win here...

"You arrive at the party, 'Funhouse' is playing, and you just know . .

You arrive at the party, 'Paranoid' is playing, and you just know . .

Does this formulation work here?"

In both cases, you just know. . the place is jumping with people who gave up on the VU party. And, whichever record is playing, the other one would work next.

why would you think this? Iggy has always struck me as deeply masculine.

there's a lot of submission/receiving imagery in iggy's lyrics ("I wanna be yr dog", "I'm loose", "penetrate, penetrate me") so I can see the feminine angle.

as bill points out, sabbath were neither pro nor anti women, women rarely show up in sabbath songs except as some sort of blues trope - "that wicked woman broke my heart etc".

You arrive at the party, 'Funhouse' is playing, and you just know . .

---shit, this could be a pretty good party!

You arrive at the party, 'Paranoid' is playing, and you just know . .

---man am I gonna get stoned

Man, this is the first difficult poll I've seen in a while. I grew up in Michigan, and had this just fetishistic love for The Stooges (hell, my column for some six years was called Gimme Danger)… But lately, I've been really listening to a lot of Sabbath and have kind of given up on Stooges—they just don't surprise me anymore, whereas Sabbath outside of a couple of albums is mostly new to me.

Stooges, not really that close.

stooges

No hesitation, the Stooges

I mean, I love the Sabs, one of my favourite bands, but why aren't the Stooges walking away with this?!!

because black sabbath has better tunes

stooges have funhouse & raw power, which may be better albums than sabbath's strongest, but not even the "no fun" riff can touch paranoid's or war pigs's or sweet leaf's or lord of this world's or a sabbath bloody sabbath's - I mean, there's a power the stooges have that's rich & deep & complex & ambiguous - dionysiac is the pretentious way of describing it, but it's probably accurate. sabbath on the other hand just crank out tune after tune of monolithic fucking riffs with scary-because-he-sounds-kinda-lost ozzy being agitatedly dysphoric about it all. Iggy keeps the company of David Bowie; Black Sabbath have no friends. Iggy's an open-eyed excursion into self-harm as self-expression; Black Sabbath's replacement singer totals his car driving drunk while recording Born Again. I loved the Stooges first, but I love Sabbath more.

This poll belongs to the Clash.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KS1CF2K1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg

I think I'll vote Stooges, but..

"Supernaut" vs. _____________ (by the Stooges)?

the more i read of this thread, the more i'm being convinced that my vote lies with sabbath.

listening to the entirety of "paranoid" now, in the gloom of a dreich glasgow morning.

"Supernaut" vs. _____________ (by the Stooges)?

^ OTFM

Stooges hands down ..but then my favourite SAbs album is Sabbath bloody sabbath so what do I know

Stooges. Metal is silly.

lol smearing yrself with peanut butter is SERIOUS BUSINESS

OK, got me. Stooges are silly too.

I think I'm going to give my vote to Sabbath - partly because of the quantity of quality output (at least 4 completely solid, amazing albums, with a smattering of good stuff thereafter), but also partly because they are just better songwriters. Sabbath has a better hit-to-miss ratio, and their methodical, slavish dedication to heavy riffage - only occasionally leavened by folk-psych deviations (which are all a damn sight better than the Stooges' lone attempt at similar on their debut) - is a fantastic marriage of vision and technique. Sure the Stooges are "rawer" or "edgier" or "not as silly" (altho come on Iggy is plenty damn silly) in some ways, but there are fewer highs with the Stooges (2 1/2 great albums) and yes I know they painstakingly assembled "Funhouse" but there just aren't as many tricky little surprises in their catalog as there is with Sabbath. And yeah, Sabbath basically invented a genre - whatever that's worth the same cannot be said of the Stooges.

one could argue that as much as zeppelin + sabbath are the inventors of metal, vu and stooges are the inventors of punk

also

"Supernaut" vs. "1970"

"Supernaut" vs. "1970"

Supernaut in a blowout on par with the latest Kimbo Slice match.

Nice post Shakey

one could argue that as much as zeppelin + sabbath are the inventors of metal, vu and stooges are the inventors of punk

I don't think's punk's lineage is all that er, linear. Punk owes as much to countless Nuggets-style 60s garage bands as anything else (see "Louie Louie") - I think VU's role is often overstated, primarily by those who would like to re-write punk's origins as being exclusive to New York (a la "Please Kill Me"). Whereas with metal you really can narrow it down in a much more direct way - there's the first few guys who took standard rewrites of the blues into heavier territory (Hendrix, Blue Cheer, etc.) and then there are the guys who really wrote the rules for much of what would follow in the subsequent decades (ie, Zep and Sabbath). With punk, things are a lot messier.

Sabs have better songs, better riffs, sure, but the Stooges are like a direct channel into the primeval ooze from which songs and riffs spring. It's like beautiful volcanic mountains versus molten lava.

Still haven't voted. It is like defusing a bomb.

i have voted, and it was for black sabbath.

i know i'll wake up in the middle of the night and think, gah, shoulda voted for the stooges.

but then i'll wake up again in the middle of tomorrow night and think, no, i did the right thing.

"supernaut" vs. "funhouse"

i will play master of reality while reading katherine anne porter's "noon wine" tonight

I did that with Vol. 4 and John Donne's Holy Sonnets earlier.

"Supernaut" vs. "1970"

Supernaut in a blowout on par with the latest Kimbo Slice match.

nah, last 2 minutes of "1970" >>> any two minutes of "supernaut"

not buying it.

Punk owes as much to countless Nuggets-style 60s garage bands as anything else (see "Louie Louie") - I think VU's role is often overstated, primarily by those who would like to re-write punk's origins as being exclusive to New York (a la "Please Kill Me").

I guess I view the VU/stooges influence on punk as narrowly as you view sabbath/zeppelin's on metal. sure, lots of diffuse & disparate things inspired punk bands, and the same could be said of metal.

but between vu and the stooges you've got about 90% of the moves punk bands would pull in situ. just like sabbath/zeppelin provided the template for metal bands that came after them.

I'd reposition this argument to take "influence" out of the equation and say that as earlier practioners of the form vu/stooges embodied the rulebook. you could erase every nuggets band in history and still derive the essentials of punk rock from vu and the stooges. and I mean punk in the broad sense; not just ramones/pistols but television, pere ubu, wire, etc. and I think I've talked about zeppelin being the collective unconscious of rock here before somewhere...

aw c'mon, who waits until the song's almost over for the saxophone to come in? and when it does it's a coltrane clarion call waking archangels to man chariots of the gods as the locked groove of a j.b.'s detroit death machine bears down on them! and I feel alright! I feel alright! I feel alright!

"TV Eye" vs. ??????

i really do not understand either of these bands

or rather their appeal.

but what do i know.

Tough choice, but Stooges. Know what puts them over for me? "LA Blues." Know why?

STEVE MCmotherfuckin'KAY.

Sabbath don't got nothin' nowhere close to him anywhere in their catalog.

"TV Eye" vs. ??????

This is the nubbins of it for me really - Sabbath's riffs seem overwrought in comparison.

And yeah, Sabbath basically invented a genre - whatever that's worth the same cannot be said of the Stooges.

Whoa.. horsey!!

Why does that matter anyway?

It's true, the Stooges aren't as boring as Sabbath

Sabbath are Frankenstein's monster lumbering dementedly through the wastes; the Stooges are all about that one high-voltage shock applied to the rotting cadaver.

this is a real toughie. love them both.

it's possibly easier to intellectually justify a stooges vote, but my gut instinct is to vote for sabbath. the thought of never hearing 'black sabbath', 'supernaut' or 'into the void' ever again is just too painful to countenance.

second, there's no way that the stooges could ever have made anything as weirdly wonderful as 'supertzar'.

on the other hand, 'TV eye' is pretty much unassailable on every level.

ultimately it comes down to feral vs. massive. massive for the win.

Well, as Black Sabbath are shitty heavy metal and The Stooges are just brilliant, I guess it'd have to be the latter. :-)

God Sabbath're dull

Blah blah lumber lumber we're from Birmingham don't blame us

Searing critical insight, guys.

I'd have thought the leader of the doom patrol might feel more of an affinity with sabbath.

The Stooges at least admit the possibility of crisis; Sabbath exist in an unchanging dimension of contant doom. BAH

Sabbath exist in an unchanging dimension of contant doom

you say it like that's a bad thing.

And it's not true. Have you heard Into The Void or Supernaut? Total "set the controls for the heart of the sun" stuff, not depressing at all.

Bit like Gordon Brown

NC the character was into 'crisis' as an agent of change/growth type thing. I think he'd prefer the Stooges, if he had time to do anything as silly as listen to popular music

OK, maybe Sabbath is a class thing - for some people.

How do you work that out?

"we're from Birmingham don't blame us"

What's that got to do with class though? That's more about Birmingham being perceived as a boring shithole.

Well, that's how I read it

Yeah it didn't have anything to do with class. Would've been the same if they'd been from Oxford or Liverpool.

But not Detroit?

Isn't Ann Arbor quite nice tho?

Yeah sure, but I think Sabbath come from England. Point is they made music that bores me, so I made fun of their boring roots. Stooges came from Ann Arbor anyway

xpost

"I'm American, btw"

Me? I'm not. To say the least. I do wonder if my loathing for Sabbath is all due to buying the first album and hating it, tho. Should I give like Vol 4 a go? Do they get more LIMBER?

OK, I'm being unduly sensitive about being grim and Northern.

Both bands came out of pretty tough backgrounds though, which is another thing they have in common.

Sorry bad zing above! Vol 4 is a great record, yes. Masters Of Reality is also arguably more groovy than their earlier records.

Although the "lumbering" tag is wrong IMHO- the rhythm section on (say) "The Wizard" SWINGS!

Dude, most of my fav bands're grim and northern! xpost ok I should give that one a go, cos man I like SO many bands that rip Sabbath off... still vote Stooges tho xxpost NO IT DOESN'T or maybe I was distracted by being annoyed that he was singing about a fucking wizard. It lifts a little, I suppose.

grim and Northern

birmingham? northern? pah :)

i'd say try Sabotage instead; it may not be the densest slab of Sab available, but it probably is the most versatile (and best).

xxxxp

Sabbath are Frankenstein's monster lumbering dementedly through the wastes; the Stooges are all about that one high-voltage shock applied to the rotting cadaver.

This is aces!

I should prob just get all three and DEAL WITH THEM

Birmingham is not the North!

xpost yes it is, but it ignores that the Stooges're kinda both/xxpost WHERE THE FUCK IS BIRMINGHAM IS IT MIDLANDS

Funhouse is one deadass record

birmingham? northern? pah :)

If you didn't like the song Black Sabbath off the 1st album you might want to just give up listening to them.

WHERE THE FUCK IS BIRMINGHAM IS IT MIDLANDS

yeh. the BLACK COUNTRY.

it's one of many parts of england i'm not familiar with at all, but i find the fact it gets such a universally bad rep intriguing, and want to check it out.

the brummie accent is also responsible for one of my favourite-ever TV jokes: the cup of tea/kipper tie thing in the grimleys, many years ago, which no-one else (except my dad) finds funny.

oh! according to wikipedia, birmingham itself isn't actually part of the black country. fuck's sake.

I voted Stooges, but I think I just need to get over not being able to take Sabbath seriously. I mean, I like wizards and sci fi, so it should be cool in music. But I recently bought scratchy copies of Black Sabbath, Paranoid and Vol 4 for a pound each to try and remedy this, and they are great in places - And Supernaut is INCREDIBLE.

The lyrics are a bit forced, though, with odd rhythms, and weird structures to try and get things to rhyme. Whereas whatever their content, the rhythm of Iggy's words, and the incredible poise with which he delivers them, is just perfect.

Love them both, though.

one of the big problems now for people taking sabbath seriously is bloody ozzy. as my sabbath-obsessed mate once put it: "imagine if ian curtis hadn't hanged himself, but had gone on to do a reality TV show with debbie."

scratchy copies of Black Sabbath, Paranoid and Vol 4 for a pound each

ha, my original scratchy copy of "masters of reality" was 33p from reptile in edinburgh :)

But you don't have to take them seriously to like them!

is it me or are we seeing some weird continental split here where the Brits are all voting for the Stooges and the Americans are all voting for Sabbath...?

(cuz no one in America gives a shit whether Birmingham is in the black country or not)

I'm a Brit, I voted Sabs. I may be the exception that proves the rule tho...

sabbath for me, I rarely listen to the stooges though I like them well enough I guess.

xpost

another brit here, another sabbath vote.

er ... yeh, i'll be british, no?

This is all just fashion and anti-fashion.

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/86/41/051c90b809a0ad9b11996110._AA240_.L.jpg

stooges, easy

rockin

That Paris concert from '70 is awesome. Here's Hand of Doom:

This is all just fashion and anti-fashion.

― Hinklepicker, Thursday, 9 October 2008 21:30 (Yesterday)

impenetrable

They're both in fashion right now depending on who you ask!

Thank you B.Magill, it's beyond awesome-- simultaneously timeless and foundational. Is that the version from "Past Lives"?

American voting for Stooges right here!

by the way,

"Supernaut" vs. _____________ (by the Stooges)?

"I'll stick it deep inside, I'll stick it deep inside..."

"Is that the version from "Past Lives"?

I believe so. Note the different lyrics from the "Paranoid" version.

2 days to go. has it all been said already?

Thanks Magill for the Hands of Doom clip. Really hitting the spot right now.

I always hoped that one day I would have this epiphany that would make think "oh my god I need to have all the Sabbath albums RIGHT NOW" but alas, though I have owned a few of their albums, this moment has not yet occured. I have a great and deep respect for them, however.

Stooges "Funhouse" still stomps all over them, though. Sorry, guys.

2 days to go. has it all been said already?

not until I post sabbath's "paranoid" from the paris concert

just about my favorite piece of live footage ever

Is that the version from "Past Lives"?

these tracks on past lives are from the paris '70 show

"Hand of Doom"
"Iron Man"
"Black Sabbath"
"N.I.B."
"Behind the Wall of Sleep"
"Fairies Wear Boots"

paris '70 "war pigs" also pleasantly punishing

And they're all on You Tube, right, those Paris songs you listed?

"Black Sabbath" the song will always be my fave, I think. Surely that is where goth began? I understand the love for "Supernaut", though.

for those still puzzling over why some bloated metal band from the 70s is challenging the almighty stooges, the paris '70 show demonstrates the simple fact that underneath all the fat, all the drugs, all the satanic paraphanalia, all the platinum records, all the overblown stage sets, all the bad production jobs thrown at them, all the conversion vans in parking lots around the world belching gusts of reefer smoke and endless bloozey gtr solos, at the core sabbath was 4 guys who could turn it the fuck out in a very real + direct way.

zeppelin and a lot of other metal bands relied on the studio to provide similar otherworldly rock gravitas, but sabbath was mainlining from the source, like their amps were plugged directly into the earth.

it's the shared simplicity of intentions/of expression that make this poll both a natural and a bedevilment.

And they're all on You Tube, right, those Paris songs you listed?

probably... I think this is the paris '70 setlist, but for some reason I remember "black sabbath" being in there somewhere?

1. Paranoid
2. Hand of Doom
3. Iron Man
4. Black Sabbath
5. N.I.B.
6. Behind the Wall of Sleep
7. War Pigs
8. Fairies Wear Boots

this show is infamous cuz no one remembers where it occurred, or the actual date, which is odd since it was professionaly filmed. london? paris? belgium? dec 19? dec 20? who knows. I just wish they'd get around to doing a proper cleaned up dvd release.

oh look, there's "black sabbath" at number 4. I don't think that's the right order. anyway, happy hunting.

zeppelin and a lot of other metal bands relied on the studio to provide similar otherworldly rock gravitas, but sabbath was mainlining from the source, like their amps were plugged directly into the earth.

Okay, woah, woah, woah. Put the gun down, stop right now. I purposely did not mention Zeppelin in my post and I expect the same from others. We are not going to put Zeppelin against Sabbath because Zep will win, and rightly so. But I told you I didn't want to open that particular can of worms.

Anyway I am gonna seek out "Black Sabbath" on You Tube right now. Thanks.

"We are not going to put Zeppelin against Sabbath because Zep will win, and rightly so."

Not in my house!

when I invoked zep I didn't really want to rehash me + shakey mo's showdown on the FIRST FOUR Led Zeppelin albums vs. FIRST FOUR Black Sabbath albums thread... but to satisfy the tender constitutions of you zeppelin fans, my statement could be read as "when sabbath did what sabbath does best, they out-heavied everybody in the game with a lot more natural grace then they are given credit for."

(kinda like the stooges)

final exhibit... at the other end of the spectrum, sabbath mach I enters heat death. ozzy's voice has been ravaged by drug and drink, the backdrop's a cartoony skull, they are seriously getting their spinal tap on. but still, that primal undertow.

watching this I get how stooges fans could find sabbath fascistic and oppressive... it also makes me wonder, if the stooges had sold as many copies of funhouse as sabbath did of paranoid, would they have ended up in any better shape?

that clip's from '78 btw

Ed III kicking all sorts of ass on this thread.

Ozzy has no voice in that "Symptom.." clip, but the band sounds heavy as hell.

like their amps were plugged directly into the earth.

I like this idea/imagery.

o hai thanks guys

love em both but I voted stooges. sabbath has more songs I like, more albums I like, more consistent albums, I care way more about bands inspired by sabbath, the list goes on... but I just like funhouse more than any sabbath record. or most other records period. had to go with my heart.

my vote is cast. sabbath.

Thanks Edward III for the wonderful videos. Iommi's guitar in "Symptom of the Universe" puts me in a state of bliss .

Symptom vs. Supernaut? You decide!!!

I wanna reach out and touch this guy.

touch: "shake hands" or "strangle"?

I know I got slightly gnarly on you on the Sublime thread, but Ned rly you're one of my favorite ILXers!

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Funhouse is a better album than anything Sabbath did, but just counting the original version of Sabbath, they did a whole lot more really killer music. The first Stooges album is cool, but it really a padded EP and Raw Power is a bit different sounding band when you add in James Williamson.

love em both but I voted stooges. sabbath has more songs I like, more albums I like, more consistent albums, I care way more about bands inspired by sabbath, the list goes on... but I just like funhouse more than any sabbath record. or most other records period. had to go with my heart.

― Alan N, miércoles 15 de octubre de 2008 20:59

duh. You're supposed to be voting for the best band in the poll not the best record.

the moment of truth is nigh!

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

You knew it. You just knew it. Anyhoo, a fantastic read throughout. Props to Shakey for setting it off.

why does ILM hate metal?

when exactly did Funhouse achieve this "OMG THIS IS THE BEST ALBUM OF ALL-TIME!!!!" status? Was it when the box set was released? Cuz I mean its fun and all (haha) but I really do not understand the reverence in which it is held.

or is ILM really just a bunch of art fags (which would seem to be the case when the majority opinion is VU>>>>Stooges>>>>Zeppelin>>>>Sabbath)

Iggy keeps the company of David Bowie; Black Sabbath have no friends.

I don't want to literalize this fascinating point too much but did Ozzy-era Sabbath ever hobnob with anyone noteworthy on a regular basis? I don't know their story too well. Which leads to my next question: what's the best Sabbath bio? (I searched but came up with nothing on ILM.)

"when exactly did Funhouse achieve this "OMG THIS IS THE BEST ALBUM OF ALL-TIME!!!!" status?"

Uh when it was released?

oh come on Funhouse didn't sell shit and the critics hated it when it was released

i don't know what you're bitching about, this is a pretty close poll

plus funhouse is better

"oh come on Funhouse didn't sell shit and the critics hated it when it was released"

Fine 1977 then. Either way it's been acknowledged to be a classic since I've been paying attention to music.

I've just always assumed that the Stooges only gradually accrued iconic status primarily due to being trumpeted by later generations of punk bands and their offshoots (the Germs, Henry Rollins, Sonic Youth, etc.) Certainly my first exposure to the Stooges was via Sonic Youth covering "I Wanna Be Your Dog" at the end of set in the late 80s

x-post

er "live sets"

and mostly I'm complaining about Sabbath not winning a single poll they've been in so far! Which just seems wrong for such an important band. And I've voted against them in a couple of those polls!

maybe you should put them up against shittier bands

I voted for them in plenty of these polls. Just not this one.

Or the Hawkwind one.

Lot of votes here. Who were the first punk bands to cover the Stooges? Sex Pistols with No Fun or the Damned with I Feel Alright? I think I've seen bootlegs with the Damned doing I Feel Alright in 1976 but I guess the same could be true of the Pistols. Not that it matters or anything.

Was there a VU one? I wouldn't have voted for them in that one either.

Well these threads have been great just for seeing the Paris 1970 footage

shakey you should demand satisfaction and start the stooges vs zeppelin poll

eh I feel that was well covered by that first four albums poll

hey at least they beat Alice Cooper right? I'm pretty sure they'll lose to Hawkwind, which I also can't really get behind, and the Who too.

velvets vs. sabbath

Who vs. Sabbath

Sabbath vs. Hawkwind

Black Sabbath vs Queen

Taking Sides: Sabbath vs. Hawkwind

BLACK SABBATH VS. ALICE COOPER POLL

They tied with Hawkwind.

haha whoops didn't notice that one had closed

That was a tough poll, but I pull out Space Ritual and Warrior On The Edge Of Time a lot so I felt obliged to vote for Hawkwind.

These vs Sabbath polls made me Suggest Ban for the first time

shakey voting straight sabbath ticket from here on in

my votes:

velvets vs. sabbath - couldn't actually make up my mind, didn't vote

Who vs. Sabbath - sabbath

Sabbath vs. Hawkwind - sabbath (but hawkwind over motorhead)

Black Sabbath vs Queen - sabbath

Taking Sides: Sabbath vs. Hawkwind

BLACK SABBATH VS. ALICE COOPER POLL - can't remember, wanted to vote alice but probably ended up voting sabbath

now I feel bad for not voting against the Who...

"when exactly did Funhouse achieve this "OMG THIS IS THE BEST ALBUM OF ALL-TIME!!!!" status? Was it when the box set was released? Cuz I mean its fun and all (haha) but I really do not understand the reverence in which it is held."

"oh come on Funhouse didn't sell shit and the critics hated it when it was released"

critics (almost) always liked the stooges. and funhouse has been pretty OMG BEST ALBUM for years and years. and i agree with all hype and hyperbole. i think it's one of the best "things" ever made. completely successful as powerful music, a work of art, fun, and all that. one of the greatest achievements of the 70's. in any genre or field.

that is a hell of a lot of votes

Creem was the culprit for me; reading article after article about Osterberg and pals in 1980/'81 convinced me to give Funhouse a try.

xp

biglurks contrast lyrics of crazy train and butt town thx

"Which leads to my next question: what's the best Sabbath bio?"

Martin Popoff did a phenomenal one. It's easy to find, I saw it in Borders the other day. Full of great rare pictures, it is one of the best rock books I have read.

I like Funhouse, but it's not the religious experience it's made out to be. Master of Reality on the other hand.....

My first exposure to FunHouse was the box set. I got it as a freebiee (I've told the tale a few times as to why), but I did feel like I made the album along with them.

So, I guess it was a religious experience for me.

You're the dude that got two of them for free, right?

And thanx, Bill!

critics (almost) always liked the stooges. and funhouse has been pretty OMG BEST ALBUM for years and years. and i agree with all hype and hyperbole. i think it's one of the best "things" ever made. completely successful as powerful music, a work of art, fun, and all that. one of the greatest achievements of the 70's. in any genre or field.

not sure a majority of critics loved the stooges in '69/'70... even bangs hated funhouse the first time he heard it! but yer 110% OTM after that.

I didn't end up voting, but in spite of my spirited defense of sabbath above I probably would've leaned towards stooges cause they sound like FREEDOM. it's weird, but sabbath are too hung up on christianity. the stooges are pagan - beyond morality, animals.

plus if I voted stooges would not have had 69 votes which is its own kind of poetic justice

i guess sanity prevails. i don't particularly like either band though. but at least the dinosaurs lost.

??????????

stooges first show: 1967
sabbath first show: 1968

unless you're talking about who sounds more like a lumbering behemoth, I don't think you can say the dinosaurs lost

I don't know if I've ever seen a poll with this many votes.

I meant "dinosaurs" as in relevance.

The Stooges at least inspire some worthwhile bands to this day.

but black sabbath can't? oh come on. you're a child.

hahah yeah Sabbath doesn't inspire anybody these days do they wtf get a clue

there's this little genre called metal, you may have heard of it?

lol I cant think of any band more influential than black sabbath in metal today
x-post

I like the Stooges, but the amount of ill-informed bullshit that's been talked about Sabbath has been a bit depressing.

"The Stooges at least inspire some worthwhile bands to this day."

What the fuck??

b-b-b-but dude just think of all the great Stooges-like bands today! Where would we be without um... um... Jay Reatard? uh... Sonic Youth?

is Mudhoney still around?

I was about to post Bill Magill to thread!

jay reatard is great wtf

Heavy Metal is garbage.

cameron carr is garbage

That's carrbage.

Cameron go to Why is The Genre Of 'Metal' so maligned?

most smart ppl like sabbath and the stooges

indeed

xpost ^^^ ding ding ding

for the record I have never heard a note of Jay Reatard lolz

I can't believe that there are people over 20 who like heavy metal. But I shouldn't be surprised in a country where Bush is president.

Cameron go to Why is The Genre Of 'Metal' so maligned?

lolz Stooges namechecked in opening post

I can't believe that there are people over 20 who like heavy metal. But I shouldn't be surprised in a country where Bush is president.

you know I try to make it a habit to avoid direct insults on ILX but um... you are closeminded and stupid.

I can't believe that there are people over 20 who like heavy metal. But I shouldn't be surprised in a country where Bush is president.

I wasn't aware Bush was president of the UK

Cameron please go post your words of wisdom on that thread

I mean anyone who willfully writes off an entire genre of music doesn't have any business being on a board called I Love Music (haha Geir to thread)

Geir likes some melodic pop metal

"But I shouldn't be surprised in a country where Bush is president."

This is brilliant analysis

Geir actually voted for Sabbath in some poll, I forget which

There was a James Brown vs Black Sabbath poll????

I was thinking more of Geir hating on hip-hop but now that I think about it yr right even he makes exceptions for genres he hates, as long as they include "melody"

but yeah lolz is Bush also president of Brazil, Sweden, Mexico, etc.

There was a James Brown vs Black Sabbath poll????

lolololol

jay reatard is great, check yourselfs

everyone likes sabbath though, not just metal people...they are like the poster boys of "metal for people that don't like metal"....sabbath is metal, but they are separate from metal fandom (although metal fans like sabbath)....

sabbath just is

I hope Cameron is quiet because he's reading the metal is maligned thread

i think geir like 2pac

i think of geir like i think of 2pac

geir has more balls

"There was a James Brown vs Black Sabbath poll????"

That's awesome.

I can't believe that there are people over 20 who like heavy metal. But I shouldn't be surprised in a country where Bush is president.

You know what, I don't have a very big appreciation for metal either, but America = the whole world? What a dumbass you are.

good point metal has traditionally been very unpopular in regions like europe, scandanavia, and south america.

haha

for the record I have never heard a note of Jay Reatard lolz

I wouldn't worry about it. You're not missing anything.

Jay is good. He gets a bed rep, but it seems like he's trying to reconcile.

i mean, he's just fun punk...like ppl have built him up to be something he's not but what he is is fun catchy punk rock that isn't lame!

55 votes for Black Sabbath is a very pleasant surprise. I mean, this is Radiohead/TV on the Radio country, right? The fact that Sabbath has so many voters here is actually encouraging.

or 30 people that dont like the stooges

umm, guys...

srrrrrrrrrrsly loving cameron carr btw whoever's pet project that is a++

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, October 13, 2008 10:19 PM (5 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

valuable new posters

I'm nobody's "project" much less "pet" unless I have some top secret CIA puppet master I don't know about.

The Manchurian Cameron

Hahaha fwiw that post was made under the assumption you were a sockpuppet. Today you've introduced real doubt into my mind: you may be real! And it sort of frightens me! But welcome!

I'm nobody's "project" much less "pet" unless I have some top secret CIA puppet master I don't know about.

http://fasterthantheworld.com/master_of_puppets.jpg

"joek/pun about 1969" baaaybee!

Ned help me, but i actually believe in Cameron...for now.