The Eminem Show

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Have you heard it? Do you like it?

― Sean, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Is he still as sexy as ever?

― Sean, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What did I mutter...keep five songs, toss the rest? Still my belief.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Did we do this already? My apologies. In any case, 5 good songs isn't a bad reason to buy a record. Or in this case CD with bonus DVD.

― Sean, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ned I think your number of songs to save is steadily climbing!

― Josh, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

oh and Sean I love it. I would guess that you would too, as long as you like rap enough.

I just wish that Aerosmith sample wasn't there.

― Josh, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Nah, I said there was five at that one point. Let's see..."Without Me," "White America," "Soldier," two others, I believe. Sounds about right.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It should also be noted that I like said tracks not for him, but because of the music. I think I have made it clear that his supposed technical ability leaves me shrugging.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"My Dad's Gone Crazy" is maddeningly catchy.

― clotion, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Wasn't one of the other ones "Square Dance", Ned?

― Dan Perry, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm just listening to it for the third time. I think it's excellent, as good as his first, though not the masterpiece that Mathers was. I even think the singing track sort of works, in a complex Postmodern way.

― Martin Skidmore, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

well i've just downloaded "square dance" and it's the most arresting song I've heard in..oh, a long time.

― Mitch Lastnamewithheld, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My take on it: "Nobody listens to techno" (except for your producers, you cockfarmer). Eminem proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is an artist I can only listen to in small doses.

― Dan Perry, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, Sean, if you ever go ahead and buy the record, make sure to upload it somewhere immediately as Eminem promises to "... meet the [expletive]... " who does such a thing. That way, your dream date is secured!

― Brian MacDonald, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Eminem co-produced that track, and either produced or co-produced (more of the former I think) most of the rest of the album!

― Josh, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

saying there are only five good songs but saying they are good only because of the backing track and not the rap = you are a rap mentalist not to be trusted with my rap cd dollars

― Josh, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Never claimed *not* to be a rap mentalist. And you are welcome to him. ;-) He functions as a interesting contrast to the music at points, but surely most MCs would.

"Square Dance," yes, that was it, and let's see...ah, "Till I Collapse," that was the other.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

please, just...stop.

― jess, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

just cordoning your mentalist area off with my yellow tape, see, so everyone is aware

'but surely most mcs would': at the very least I would think you could hear his raps as sound, in which case they still add something distinctive. the way the rhymes are accented + the way he has of piling up rhymes = rhythmically !!. the list of mcs he gives (in 'collapse'?) and includes himself in has some sense to it!

― Josh, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Eminem co-produced that track, and either produced or co-produced (more of the former I think) most of the rest of the album!

... Nope, I still think he's a cockfarmer.

― Dan Perry, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

just cordoning your mentalist area off with my yellow tape, see, so everyone is aware

Woohoo!

at the very least I would think you could hear his raps as sound

Can't not hear them that way, at least. They're there. Again, *shrug*

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Says on my copy of Without Me that he produced it, and it was co- produced by Jeff Bass, and mixed by Dr Dre.

― Nick, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

please...just, stop.

― jess, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

In answer to your third question, Sean--yes, the little shitkicker. He looks adorable in the new Face.

― Arthur, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ah...ha...ha hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh mercy

― ethan, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You're not laughing at the album, right, just all the dumb shit people are saying about it?

― Dan I., Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, yeah, which means I like it. I like most of it more than most of the other two albums.

― Dan I., Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The other two that I've heard, I mean. Was there more? I didn't bother with the whole d12 fiasco...

― Dan I., Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i'm laughing at the album too because the punchlines are his best ever!!

― ethan, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Re that NME article: why is "fucker" left intact but "motherfucker" asteriskified?

― Nate Patrin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Er, not "fucker", but "fucking". Important distinction. Oops.

― Nate Patrin, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Re: that article. Why is he wearing Kurt Cobain's old jumper?

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the d12 'fiasco' is fucking great!!

― ethan, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's an odd album. Several good jokes. Too many riffs. I agree with the larffter above.

― Tom, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

how can there be too many riffs?

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

mark theres an aerosmith solo

― ethan, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

are jess and ethan larfing becuz ppl w/o "Qualified to Discuss HipHop" badges are contributing injudiciously?

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I AM HIPHOP

― ethan, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i wasn't laughing!!

― jess, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

If they weren't qualified nobody would be replying, Mark.

― Tom, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

aerosmith rock

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm still not sure where the Aerosmith one is. I just meant in general.

― Tom, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm not qualified, so I'm not saying anything about this one...

― Nicole, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

this is what i know about hiphop: nas, mobb deep and aerosmith

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

buh buh the Who, Mark

― cuba libre (nathalie), Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the who are techno

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Glitch?

― cuba libre (nathalie), Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

no, i have to drive home, thank you all the same

― mark s, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It was interesting that Em thinks that "nobody listens to techno" but at the DEMF you could not get away from the Eminem commerical that was being looped all the time on the big screens between acts.

― mt, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

what makes you think he thinks that? because he said it? because those words came out of his mouth? what does that have to do with what he actually thinks? are you all kidding?

― Stuart, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

unfortunately no stu

― Josh, Tuesday, 28 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Nobody listens to techno" was moby's own epiphany.

― bnw, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

White America is thrilling
Business is a rip-off from The Next Episode.
Cleanin Out My Closet is awful.
Square Dance is unsettling.
Soldier is forgettable.
Say Goodbye Hollywood is compulsive listening.
Drips is boring.
Without Me is great pop.
Sing For The Moment is an attempt at a Stan, with terrible Aerosmith music.
Superman is dumb.
Hailie's Song is excruciating.
When The Music Stops is one of D12's best moments.
Say What You Say is forgettable.
'Til I Collapse is awesome.
My Dad's Gone Crazy is terrific.

There you have it: 7 top tunes out of 15.

― JoB, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I even think the singing track sort of works, in a complex Postmodern way

come on then! explain...

― toby, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Banana sandwiches vs Eminem: FITE!

― Sam, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Best. Review. Ever.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

JoB you forgot "Ken"!

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Talk shows are amusing, but I'm not interested in spending much time on them. Eminem's the same way. Haven't heard the album, but I think "Without Me" is a stupid single -- "guess who's back, guys, my new single is out, I'm flava of the month again!" It's just turning yourself into a puppy yipping shamelessly at the ankles of hype, especially with all the "la la la la's." It's targeted towards pop radio, not hip-hop. And then you excuse yourself later on by saying 'this is the circus people wanted to make out of my life, so I gave it to them ... '

― Dare, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

dare i am interested in dropping this shameless pop (c)rap and finally getting some real hiphop what do you recommend??

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

3LW has a remix of No More featuring Nas. That might be a good gateway song to get you into the real stuff, ethan.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ethan listen to cannibal ox

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Don't listen to sinkah -- the mcs are good but the production is awful. The Automator is the only good producer left these days -- go get his work with the Gorillaz.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I even think the singing track sort of works, in a complex Postmodern way come on then! explain...

In much the same way as Dave Eggers' A Heartbreaking Work Of Staggering Genius, for me. The blend of self-referentiality, irony and unmistakeably genuine emotion is a pretty rich one, I think, and his attempts at proper feeling in a singing voice is part of this. Obviously he's a rotten singer, but he avoids playing on that as a joke. I expect the song would be pretty intolerable without the rapping bits (I'm one of those who think he's a genuinely great rapper). I should add, not for the first time, that if you think I'm reading layers of irony and subtleties into it that Eminem doesn't intend, I don't care cos they're there in the music, whether he meant to put them there or not. Read the lyrics: at the same time as he's describing the way he acts versus the internal reality, he is contradicting it by the act of saying it! There's been no pop star since Madonna's heyday to so repay thought and analysis.

― Martin Skidmore, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm talking about the bumpy, manic rhythmic pulse of the song, Ethan - - it sounds to me like chart-pop and house, not hip-hop. Taking that in context with the lyrics, I'm wondering about what audience Eminem wanted to target with the song. I'm not suggesting that chart-pop is bad, or that he doesn't have the right to pursue that angle on a single, I just think when you combine that with the actual point expressed in the chorus of the song -- "I'm back, I'm a nuisance, nyah-nyah!" -- it's kind of annoying. Anyone can write a song like that, and since the music doesn't move me, it's useless.

I'm not talking about what's real, and what's not. Does it hurt your feelings that I'm dissing on Eminem?

― Dare, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

dare youre forgetting that i fucked your girl

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

haha dare what does that make the cold vein then??

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

dare are you a parapalegic?

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There's been no pop star since Madonna's heyday to so repay thought and analysis.

I have the ultimate Sinker argument with this claim: Eminem = Madonna = prog.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

josh anyone can write a post like that

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Maan, that dre dude sure can't mix hip-hop songs, but I guess he is sorta good at pop/techno stuff.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Hell no, my ass has been gyrating to the Nappy Roots as of late.

― Dare, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

BAD MENTAL PICTURE

― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ethan you're forgetting that I fucked you

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

WORSE MENTAL PICTURE

― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

since it doesnt move me, its useless

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ethan you're forgetting that you fucked dar-- oh wait

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

since it doesnt move me, its useless

It is an accurate claim for all of us, surely, in our individual universes. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

yes, i was forgetting that

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

don't try to start that up again you mentalist back to your cure threads with you

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This thread is more entertaining than _The Eminem Show_.

― Dan Perry, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

don't try to start that up again you mentalist

Too late. BOW DOWN! Eminem, like everything else, has no inherent right or wrong value and you all weep, you do. ;-)

This thread is more entertaining than _The Eminem Show_.

Actually quite accurate.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ult.Sinkah argt = "Em = Madge = prog hurrah!" surely?

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I didn't want to put words in your mouth, Mark S, but I thought that was implied. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Can't pass judgement = can't see the error of Slim Shady's deviant ways, can't interact with the essential moral character of The Eminem Show = you're fucked.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You listen to the album for its essential moral character? What about wanting to dance?

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

those club beats do not move sterl's stony ass

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

you're flipflopping here.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ethan you're forgetting that you fucked St- oh, the moment's gone.

― Dan Perry, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm gonna buy the album anyway, I really think Em's a good rapper, great lyricist, and has good beats.

Josh, what else can you tell us about Sterling's ass?

― Sean, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

'buy the album anyway' - ANYWAY? because ned and dan are hatin on em? hahahaha. buy it and love it sean.

comments about sterl's ass are only metaphorical speculation sean. sorry to get your hopes up.

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

if by "metaphorical speculation" you mean literal exploration.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

metaphorically so.

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

in a speculative sense.

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Thanks guys for making this my most successful--and sexiest--thread ever!

― Sean, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Dream On" = best Aerosmith single.

Real hip-hop = the Fat Boys.

I'd throw on 'Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band' - just that drum part. One, two, three, BAM - and they'd be screaming and partying. I'd throw on The Monkees, 'Mary Mary' - just the best part where they'd go 'Mary, Mary, where are you going?' - and they'd start going crazy. I'd say, 'You just danced to the Monkees.' They'd say, 'You liar. I didn't dance to no Monkees.' I'd like to catch people who categorize records. --DJ Afrika Bambaataa

― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

http://members.aol.com/dubplatestyle/emined.jpg

― mitch (the s stands for *EMINED*) lastnamewithheld, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

BEST PICTURE EVER!!!!!!!

― Dan Perry, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It is truly glorious. But since I've seen it twice now, who actually did it, Mitch or Jess?

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

J im DeRogatis hates it, so it's got to be pretty good.

― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

you put 'flow' in quotes when not referring to it as a linguistic item -> what the fuck do I care what you think about flow

this 'why can't misogyny be more fun like the old days of hair metal etc' kind of idea comes up a lot. but what if em's just not fun to JIM? and why is kid rock supposed to be more fun? I bet em has more jokes.

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Can someone please tell me why the majority of the tracks that Dr. Dre produces for Eminem sound wussier than most boy band music?

I mean, listen to "Cleaning Out The Closet" song - that beat is so weak that Celine Dion would pass on it.

Why does no one ever mention this?

― f = r, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I hate you for making me read that article, Nate. UUUUURG Cliff's Notes version: 1) Eminem is "famously laid-back" 2) Eminem "apes... the real streets" 3) E's targets are marginal or irrelevant (what about his "long-suffering missus, Kim" or his "lousy mom"? are they irrelevant?) 4) either Dido, Max Martin, or Kasenetz/Katz would have improved the album 5) it's useless listening to the words because Eminem is somehow tricking you.

― Tracer hand, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

moby is marginal or irrelevant: oh how we wish

― Josh, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

5) it's useless listening to the words because Eminem is somehow tricking you.

A strange insistence -- though it does show up what appears to be a major point of contention, namely that either Mr. Mathers' lyrical details are a fascinating study of identity and meaning or merely a dramatic gimmick in and of itself that is being too heavily read into.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Why are those the only options?

― Josh, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

on what josh said way upthread (sorry i just read this thread in full and i am not real hiphop or anything) the beats aside, it's the way he says the lines that really does it for me - the syncopation, the uncanny sense of rhythm, meter, etc that attracts me so much to "without me" and the rest of the album (which i just listened to completely, finally.) what he's actually saying is secondary to me, it's how he delivers the lines - he really knows how to use his voice, and he really uses the full potential of his voice as this crazy dynamic instrument.

hell, i would buy a cd of eminem reading the phone book.

― geeta, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

flux=rad=Jim DeRogatis=Anthony DeCurtis with more hair and a bigger gut.

― J Blount, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(i made it ned)

― mitch lastnamewithheld, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Nicely done, Mitch. They're not the only options, Josh, but they seem to be the main options crystallizing around a key assumption -- namely, that the lyrics do matter (and therefore if he's 'tricking' his audience, then how dare he when he knows the power of words, etc.). Geeta just now makes a pretty good case for liking him without anything to do with what the lyrics are -- me, I'd find the phone book prospect boring as sin, etc.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I just played it and I'm underwhelmed. I loved fully half of "The Marshall Mathers LP" right away, laughing and dancing in my seat. This time the only track to grab me straight off is "Without Me". And the lyrics on that one do recycle old ideas. Maybe I'll like it more on subsequent listenings, but I thought I'd report...

― Sean, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

― Josh, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned - a third option would be insisting that yes the lyrics are important and do something complicated with identity etc., and that because of that they deserve more careful attention. Maybe that attention will make us say, oh, what a fascinating play with identity blah blah blah. Maybe not. (In this sense saying oh the lyrics are just a gimmick seems to me to be saying the lyrics are important, but people saying that also seem to be not putting any of the effort into getting them, but of course they have it all figured out somehow so they're not 'fooled' by the complexity.)

I don't know if I've explained myself well but I consider this as distinct from praising Em's play with yadda yadda. It's one step removed from that - praising the fact that the lyrics can give me pause when I actually think about them. And finding it enjoyable to figure out what's going on.

― Josh, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Of course I'm still aware that you're a mentalist, so I don't need to hear it again. All I'm saying is that there's something THERE to be HAD, even if it takes you personally some (or a load of) doing to see it that way.

― Josh, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

praising the fact that the lyrics can give me pause when I actually think about them. And finding it enjoyable to figure out what's going on

No objections here, it makes perfect sense as an approach.

Of course I'm still aware that you're a mentalist, so I don't need to hear it again.

Woo-hoo!

All I'm saying is that there's something THERE to be HAD, even if it takes you personally some (or a load of) doing to see it that way.

Mmm...might it not be more accurate -- and attuned with your first statement -- to say that there's something there which might be had? Or that there is something (or many things) in an artwork (any artwork) that could produce a deeper reaction or interpretation, but does not specifically have to, every time, for every observer?

I mean, I don't know. But it seems this element of discretion -- conscious or unconscious -- about what we as individuals choose to focus on is important. And if this is nothing but me repeating myself with different words here, I apologize, but I admit I haven't quite considered it like that before...

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

'there to be HAD' = 'might be had', at least as far as I can tell - I meant the same thing. Meaning yes, there is discretion, as well as personal taste. But the way you phrase things with your radical nedism sounds to me as if you're denying that this stuff I'm talking about is even there, or is even worth looking for at all. Maybe what I'm looking for is more of an admission that other people might find it (or think it's there to find), even if you're going to pass. I don't know for sure but I think that's different from saying "this is just what I think, you're welcome to what you think," etc. (I'm not totally sure what would make me happy.) Here's an example: I fucking hate Charles Dickens, and I don't have any plans to read him any time soon (until my intellectual guilt breaks me down and I give it a go because he's Important and Tom said GR is kind of Dickensian, but I digress). So I dis him to my friends and make fun of the ones that like him. It's all in good fun. But things come to a stop at a point. I'm not incessantly asserting the validity of my opinion about Dickens to my friends who find him valuable, because I know they've actually put some effort into it, against my cursory reading of some Dickens once upon a time.

That came out sounding like a longer version of 'you are a hip-hop mentalist' and me saying you don't have good ears. That's not quite what I wanted. But close enough. Maybe you'll get me.

― Josh, Thursday, 30 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But the way you phrase things with your radical nedism sounds to me as if you're denying that this stuff I'm talking about is even there, or is even worth looking for at all. Maybe what I'm looking for is more of an admission that other people might find it (or think it's there to find), even if you're going to pass.

Heavens, I hope I wasn't implying otherwise. It seems that such a belief isn't merely useful, but central to my stance. If I'm going to see things one way, others will see it their own way and find their own approaches. They'll *have* to, because my way can't be the only way and could never be. It's not different from my general stance, though, more a derivation of it -- or so I'd think.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So dude do you have to work so hard to kill our buzz then?! Is all I want to know.

― Josh, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the real buzzkillers of late have been those clowns from the FMBB, honestly...

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ha! I've still got my eye on you, hahaha.

― Josh, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Help help! To answer the question -- maybe too forcefully making a point, but I am not trying to upset a consensus just because the consensus is there. If I really enjoyed the album, I would have said so.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned - a third option would be insisting that yes the lyrics are important
They are of course. But the shock value has gone. Now we expect shock - and hence it can't really deliver.

― cuba libre (nathalie), Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

those square dance lyrics seem to rilly pack a punch.

― Sterling Clover, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's creepy! So is 'White America'.

― Josh, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I know you're not Ned! You are a stony-faced immovable statue of Ned.

― Josh, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

and I am a stony-assed statue of Sterling!

― Sterling Clover, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

metaphorically

― Josh, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

and speculatively

― Josh, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned, Eminem's lyrics are complicate and interesting, not least of all because their complications remind me of my complications. You should listen and try to get Eminem because you should be fascinated by everything pertaining to me.

Josh, telling people that Em is complicated isn't as convincing (as a matter of fact, might be off-putting) as showing them. Here' s where I try to make my case.

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I've got a lot of shit on the table right now, Frank! Ned's just supposed to believe me until I get around to actually showing my work.

― Josh, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I have doubts, Josh. ;-) It's a very good article, Frank, but I can't shake the feeling (now adjusting my 'compare to the classic rock guy' comparison a bit -- this just occured to me last night) that Eminem is a new Bob Dylan, in the sense of a lot of baggage brought to the table when talking about his lyrics and their relation to These Modern Times (and a lot of talk about the unique qualities of his voice and how that's part of the importance, not necessarily lyrically). Not bad things at all, I should note, but in and of themselves not compelling reasons to explain to me *why* I should be caring more, if you get the drift -- which is how I feel about both Dylan and Eminem in many ways. I can't force myself into a connection that I don't feel -- and the Eminem persona has always struck me as incredibly boring when dealt with on its own away from the music. The lyrical analysis doesn't make me think any differently of that persona; it is relentlessly *non*-fascinating and uncomplicated to me. He does seem to make an interesting figure for extended reader-response theory, I'll allow -- but that does not produce universal results, by its very definition (which again perhaps restates my earlier point).

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Another quick thought right now -- arguably (not definitely, merely arguably), the more complicated persona is the seemingly more simple one. Who is more surprising to you and I (keeping in mind you and I are being called the norm here, a temporary violation of my stance to consider the point) -- someone who hasn't resolved all their issues or someone who has beyond all shadows of all doubts? The former may be more 'real' but the latter is more strange and alien in contrast, at least to me.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ashley Judd to thread!!

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ashley Judd? You've lost me there! ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

She's the chocolate to Eminem's peanut butter, per your formulation above. And I have fleeting moments of morbid fascination with her. But if they were both at the same party I know who I'd rather being hanging out with.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ashley Judd = Eminem in a wig.

― Dan Perry, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But is the person you want to hang out with at a party the same person you want thrilling your soul musically? ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(It should be noted that in that party situation I would either read a book, talk to the help staff or escape through a window, likely enough. I'm terrible at parties where I don't know anyone to begin with!)

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But we both knoew AJ and Eminem so well

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That we do! Hurrah!

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Party!

― Sean, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Hard?

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

No- 'til you PUKE

― Nate Patrin, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

what makes you think he thinks that? because he said it? because those words came out of his mouth? what does that have to do with what he actually thinks? are you all kidding?

What I find offputting is that the above is the truest thing ever and against certain intellectual judgments of my own I find it completely impossible to enjoy things on that level -- the level of sayings things just for the immediate effect of saying them and not owning or meaning them or whatever else ... and yes, this is in some senses an overaching moral argument about the use of language. (This is possibly why the Jess-and-Ethan approach to certain threads like this one wears on me really quickly; they will appreciate knowing that they are the Eminems of ILM.)

That said, I love "Without Me" (a) for being good pop (except for a lousy chorus), and (b) because the first time I heard it on the radio I realized that Eminem had bested me, that despite my supposedly not caring about him and not having ever listened to a full record of his I heard his voice on the radio and thought "Holy shit it's a new Eminem single" and turned it up to see what he had to say ... And there I was, basically having a good laugh at myself along with him. (The single actually seemed design to appeal to people who did not care for Eminem: I'm in complete agreement with Ally calling it the self-parody that the Eminem- indifferent could finally agree with him about?)

And then the next single came along and I was reminded how quickly even his cleverness gets old, how god-awfully boring he is when being even vaguely sincere, how truly uninteresting most of his production is, and how his verbal dexterity is consistently put to waste. . .

― Nicola Copernicus, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the self-parody that the Eminem- indifferent could finally agree with him about

I wouldn't go THAT far... ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

When I first heard the single I was excited as well--hey it's the new Eminem--and what's funny is that I haven't had that reaction to a new song in a long time. The fact that it is who it is doesn't bother me a bit.

― Sean, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

In the great classroom of pop, Eminem is the self-conscious rebel, the rebel that the teacher was allowed to like. Of course he was funny, of course he got one up on so many people, but, in the end, you'd wish he get the fuck on with his work for once. With Eminem, it's not a case of "You could get As if you just applied yourself", rather, "You could be not a complete cunt if you just applied yourself".

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

'waste'?

― Josh, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the thing is - and frank's article says this much better and more clearly - every time i think he's coasting on wit or wisecracks, he seems to pop up with a really cutting line. his guest verse on "what's the difference?" is the best example of that i can think of right now.

― dave k, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

you can't, like, own a word, man.

― jess, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The production is much fuller and generally nicer than on the previous album. I honestly believe that, however in patches you get the feeling he's coasting along.

I can't really put the man down because the minute I stuck the CD into my discman I was smiling. You can mock the "i'm back" stuff all you want, but Without Me genuinely did feel like something major and compelling and amusing and fucking fantastic and new. The thing Josh wrote on NYLPM says it better than I can.

― Ronan, Sunday, 2 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

A colleague says, "Somebody could make the case that he's coming out of the closet in three songs." Discuss.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

all this time him and dre been fucking with hats off

― ethan, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Frank: I don't think he's gay, but maybe gay-friendly? What's that line he has that goes like we're cutting up cantelopes and antelopes who says to guys can't elope or something like that, which I thought was kind of cool.

― Sean, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

that was mean to be two guys, natch.

― Sean, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, but then he claims to have the antidote. I wouldn't call him gay-friendly, but then I don't necessarily think he likes himself, either.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, I can't find it, but there's the one that goes, "Let's get out the K-Y." Something like that.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

LETS GET READY FOR SOME INTENSE SERIOUS ASS FUCKING

― ethan, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

of course frank that's kind of a battle rhyme (?) so it fits in with the trope of the rapper fucking his enemies or forcing oral sex on them while not being gay.

ethan asked me to make the same case a while ago and there are more bits all over the album that if not indicating eminem's gay, at least can be not so slyly 'interpreted' that way.

― Josh, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

In multiple places on The Eminem Show Em refers to getting out of the game. He says that when your time is up, you should get out of the game. He also says that his magic will dry up when he's 30 (he's 28 on the album, cf. how they'll take you before they take him). So, question: do you really think he would do it? What would you think if he did?

― Josh, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I would think the same of him as when he was "in the game" - nothing to say.

― Curt, Monday, 3 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

saying something you don't mean doesn't mean what you're saying is meaningless.

― Stuart, Tuesday, 4 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ethan's Pitchfork review of The Eminem Show: classic or CLASSICK?

― j.lu, Tuesday, 4 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Currently being debated here!

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 4 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one month passes...

I've heard this a few times now.

― Mark, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

A record like this is such a different listening experience for me. It's like, you can't really appreciate The Eminem Show without being tuned into to what's happening in his life. I'm not used to listening to music where I need to understand who a guy is, what his daughter's name is, what his relationship with his mother and ex-wife are, how he settled his latest lawsuit, what his lawyer's name is, etc. The author is not dead!

― Mark, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm not complaining, though, I like the record. The incredible thing is, and its a testament to his marketing acumen, is that I DO know all those things about him, and more.

One thing I noticed about the record, though, is how stupid and tacked-on that "Superman" song is. He totally put that on just to be, ooh, *shocking*, and show that he doesn't give a fuck. His heart just isn't in it, unlike when he talks about stuff he's caring about. He just needs to give the people who hate him some ammo so they can rail at him and inspire him to write some good songs.

― Mark, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And most of the choruses are pretty bad, unfortunately. No Dido.

― Mark, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So you basically hate it? ;-)

― nath, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"nobody listens to Techno" = logical extension of Schooly D's "I Don't Like Rock & Roll". Rock fans are too used to getting dissed in Rap joints to notice anymore (plus it'd be bad marketing- since Em also appeals to a large, white, Rock-loving audience), so raver culture is the next best thing. And Io, long haired faggots can kiss Hip-Hop's ass once again.

I think that's a good thing, just as it was a good thing with Schooly D. It won't stop me from listening to Techno anymore than Schooly stopped me from listening to Rock.

― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I've had a few weeks to listen to it, and I'll now say that the new one is nowhere near as good as "The Marshall Mathers LP".

― Sean, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one year passes...

So am I right that on the last verse of "Square Dance," he turns into Bush/Cheney/America? And that "Cleanin Out My Closet" is directed at Kim?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 07:27 (twenty-one years ago)

two years pass...

Well, since my attempt on a thread got locked, I'll post this here instead (btw I did the search Ned, just didn't find any threads to match my topic)

Whenever the subject of Eminem comes up in conversation, my friends are very divided in their opinions of his carreer. Quite a few think that his shift from amusing bastard to Self-Conscious E With Family And Hard-Learned Lessons Of Life is not a good one, and that he is now reduced to school with the bottom-feeders of the rap market. Others simply see it as a turn to commercialize his music, making it even more broadly accessible, and following the trends of modern rap music. So, has he aged badly or well? Is that Nate Dogg colab as crap as I tend to think? How long until Haley does the chorus on his singles?

― the Dirt, Saturday, 19 May 2007 18:34 (eighteen years ago)

Seriously, what happened to Eminem?

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 19 May 2007 19:12 (eighteen years ago)

From Wikipeda:

"Eminem is known to be featuring on a future album release by Elton John"

so much for the homophobic accusations I guess.

― the Dirt, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 13:15 (eighteen years ago)

heh.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

Also: the first of these is probably most suitable for your sort of "general discussion" purposes, but there are hella Em threads, man.

Eminem: Classic or Dud?
Eminem: Ten Words or Less
Eminem - I can't stand him, why is he so praised?

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

four years pass...

bump 4 lolz

― stepmomster (Lamp), Friday, 22 July 2011 06:12 (fourteen years ago)

i just revisited. some pretty amazing rapping and some pretty dire beats

― e herbiest unum (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 22 July 2011 06:17 (fourteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.