Favourite Song on "London Zoo" by The Bug?

Poison Dart featuring Warrior Queen is my vote.

Skeeeeeeeng

I get the feeling that might win

very poor

you don't like this album?

fuckaz. i love the neverending loop on that track.
so dirty.
plus spaceape is fucking ace

the whole album is brilliant tho

I was around a friends house and he played it. It got on my nerves and I wanted to hear something else. It's good but, I dunno...

Something is off with this, sort of the same problem as that last Techno Animal record. It's one of those things that on paper I love but in the headphones nothing really gels. I'm hoping the next one will be fyah, but that's what I said about Pressure.

Its an album that, like other Kevin Martin work, needs context. The context being a stroll around abandoned warehouses, rust belt forclosed communites, or a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

Or a night drive from my office to my apartment. I think this is a really versatile if dark record, and I love the shit out of it. Voted Skeng, but must rep for Jah War and Murder We and Fuckaz all of which I play about equally.

worse
shot ya in tha face make you send ya for the nurse
nurse / nurse / nurse

After six months with the record, I think it's one of the best records ever made, a funky political party on par with Maggot Brain, Sandinista, Double Nickles on the Dime, Nation of Millions. Poison Dart is the first one I heard, and I still can't believe I haven't worn it out the way I've been playing it, so it's got my deepest love. All the associated tracks on the 12" are brilliant too- Stampin, Ganja. Poison Dart, Jah War next maybe. Every track gets me though.

This one and the A Frames debut sum up the 00's for me. Like those other records I mentioned, I don't think I'll ever get to the bottom of them.

Would pick "Skeng", but don't feel like voting for the single, so I'll go with "Jah War" because I like some fire & brimstone in my post-apacolyptic post-dancehall. "Angry" is super-awesome, too.

I like the way the melody seems to keep slipping in and out of key on "Too Much Pain". It's very disorienting.

"Fuckaz" easy

After six months with the record, I think it's one of the best records ever made, a funky political party on par with Maggot Brain, Sandinista, Double Nickles on the Dime, Nation of Millions.

Nah, i wouldn't go that far.

Angry, by quite some distance.

I think I skipped "Angry" the first time I played it in the car cause I wanted something that really knocked right away and "Murder We" came on and it's like daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn where is ye olde spliffe

Angry is the perfect opener really

"Fuckaz" you eejits

this is really tough. 'skeng' seems like the automatic choice, and it may well be my favourite, but i feel i want to rep for 'insane'...i am going to have to relisten. though maybe when not hungover.

maybe every track will get a vote

I'm guessing Insane or Poison Dart will take this, as female toasting isn't common in the smattering of dancehall most of us have encountered.

??? I don't listen to much dancehall and still hear female toasting pretty often.

I can't really say. I suspect the distribution is similar to that on the Bug album (which I really like). On the RYM list of the highest rated 62 dancehall albums of this decade there is just one featuring a female toaster, Lady Saw. Given that dancehall reggae doesn't have any good radio outlets where I live, I simply don't have a good feel for what present day singles are like.

<3 this album

I suspect the distribution is similar to that on the Bug album (which I really like).

Yeah, that seems about right

Right now, it's Fuckaz. This may change over time, but I've only had the album a week.

Angry, by quite some distance.

― Matt DC, Sunday, 14 December 2008 14:07 (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I'm guessing Insane or Poison Dart will take this, as female toasting isn't common in the smattering of dancehall most of us have encountered.

this sentence is really ill-thought out and senseless

i mean unless you're implying that people are going to vote for a female-fronted track because it's such a novelty

rather than because warrior queen is one of the best MCs on the record

Well, I did vote for a female-fronted track because 1) I like Warrior Queen (though I prefer "Aktion Pak" to anything on this record) and 2) for me, it is a novelty (as is the entire Bug project).

Formally, the backings aren't all that removed from the late 90's dubby isolationism of Scorn, Techno Animal, and the Illbient crew. But adding the toasting back into the recipe gives the whole a levity and humanity that was missing. And unlike JA dancehall (most to my ears disposable party music with a short shelf life), the Bug sound evokes an imaginal context that doesn't actually exist (yet). This is the music I'd expect in Neuromancer's rasta space station, or appealing to the characters in any number of post-apocalypic fictions.

I'd be keen to know how the Bug is heard by Jamaican listeners. Do the MCs make the isolationism accessible? Would they identify with the sense of urban decay? Or would it simply be heard as badly produced and undanceable.

i dont really care for it too much beyond these tracks:

3. Skeng featuring Killa P & Flowdan
5. Insane featuring Warrior Queen
6. Jah War featuring Flowdan
7. Fuckaz featuring Spaceape
10. Warning featuring Flowdan
11. Poison Dart featuring Warrior Queen

a lot of the rest sounds a bit dirgey and not very diff at all to stuff that was going in the 90s like various other ppl have pointed out.

Well, I did vote for a female-fronted track because 1) I like Warrior Queen (though I prefer "Aktion Pak" to anything on this record) and 2) for me, it is a novelty (as is the entire Bug project).

Formally, the backings aren't all that removed from the late 90's dubby isolationism of Scorn, Techno Animal, and the Illbient crew. But adding the toasting back into the recipe gives the whole a levity and humanity that was missing. And unlike JA dancehall (most to my ears disposable party music with a short shelf life), the Bug sound evokes an imaginal context that doesn't actually exist (yet). This is the music I'd expect in Neuromancer's rasta space station, or appealing to the characters in any number of post-apocalypic fictions.

I'd be keen to know how the Bug is heard by Jamaican listeners. Do the MCs make the isolationism accessible? Would they identify with the sense of urban decay? Or would it simply be heard as badly produced and undanceable.

― derelict

UGH.

I love "skeng" but "murder we" gets stuck in my head more often. after I burn out on them it'd probably be "poison dart".

"UGH."

Double ugh.

Voted "Skeng". My favorite "slow one" isn't even on the album (Ricky Ranking's "Flying"). No idea how anyone could say "Angry" for example sounds "dirgey", but obviously there is some connection between this record and previous things Martin was involved with.

oh noes, all these UGHs - but uh really how different is what cyberpunk dude is saying compared to "london: it's daaaaark innit geez"? or do you guys have some sort of subtler reasoning going on that i don't know about.

"most to my ears disposable party music with a short shelf life"
"This is the music I'd expect in Neuromancer's rasta space station, or appealing to the characters in any number of post-apocalypic fictions."

Was mostly what I was UGHing at.

That's my subtle reasoning anyway.

UGHing, new ilm meme

i prefer a HOOS-style "ugh, son"

I'm guessing they think the word "novelty" implies more than it does. I wouldn't bother with each year's music were it not for the promise of novelty. But then again I thought Eno was OTM in his rehabilitation of "pretentious".

As to Alex's comments: Most of every genre is disposable. That's why I pay people who publish magazines to pay critics to sort through the dross. I'm sure you realize that JA has more music releases per capita than any other nation on the face of the planet, and this has been true for 45 years. You've heard one of those one-riddim compilations? Sometimes a single backing track is recycled well over a hundred times. The very economics of JA dancehall production, for the vast majority releases, just about guarantees there are a very, very few potential gems in an overwhelming tide of vinyl that will be recycled into the next batch of dubplates when the next riddim hits.

possibly if you think all music is still an extension of a tenderly-caressed 10cd lee perry boxset you may well think that first point so UGH, but it's really not so wild a thing to say providing its not meant in an especially derogatory way. which it isn't there, really.

the 2nd point... well ok, tell me why youre into the album alex and we'll see how dumb cyberdude is actually being. (bonus points for using the word "sufferation")

xpost Well thank God we have great musicians like the Bug who can create truly visionary future works, unlike hacks like Stephen McGregor and Donovan Bennett who are just recycling a bunch of dross.

"the 2nd point... well ok, tell me why youre into the album alex and we'll see how dumb cyberdude is actually being. (bonus points for using the word "sufferation")"

Haha wtf are you on about. Do you always have this much trouble separating fantasy from reality?

Actually scratch that last bit. I've read enough your "oh so clever" uncapitalized rants over the years to know that you do.

u madd? luckily enough i don't seem to have much trouble seperating two guys both feeling the lyrical abstractions of the space ape but one having more or less the right idea about dancehall and the other putting it on a suffocating pedestal

For what it's worth this appeals to me because it sounds bombed-out and apocalyptic and also sounds perfect now, listening to it makes you realize how frightening our own modern landscape is.

ugh son

ugh

rtc, I wouldn't trust you to have the right idea about anything.

But hey thanks for playing anyway.

I mostly hear it as fake grime rather than fake dancehall, am I allowed on the space station?

seriously though how can you maintain that bennett & mcgregor arent hacky recyclers to an extent? not in a bad way necessarily (although yeah sometimes), or indeed in an arcadian bricoleur fashioning steam engines from space detritus way, but in a responding to helterskelter jamaican pop modernity way. i understand you wanting to ward against the dismissive negative connotations of stating that but it really is what it is.

Matt DC: I listened to a bit of grime when I was trying to figure out what the disensus (Is that a dirty word here?) folks were on about. Is there a good one-stop release that presents the bombed-out, post-apocalypic side of grime?

skeng is the most frightening song i've ever heard
its threats sound way more sincere than any other rap (that i know of)
like real local violence rather than cartoonish exaggerations

hah see why dont people come out and say fake more often? if someone had just said k-mart was the paris hilton of dystopia rather than ^xpost^ i'd probably have been reasonably quelled.

now of course you're all gonna lie and say exactly that.

Derelict - in a word, no. Well, maybe Boy In Da Corner.

One of the reasons I like this is because it sounds like the mapping out of a different path for grime that it never really took (ie taking I Luv U as the starting point and making it bigger and bassier) but I still have a bit of trouble with the Big Serious Face the album puts on as a result and even more with the blanket praise it's getting from people who would never listen to these MCs in a different context.

Haha this is bringing back fond memories of all the handwringing about Plasticman circa 2003. Happy times.

xxxxxpost I don't have an issue with the idea of dancehall music (or any music) as being disposable (and obv not everything produced in Jamaica or by Bennett or McGregor is good or even close to it.) I do have an issue with the idea that the Bug is creating something lasting and visionary which evokes the future the future the future whereas JA dancehall can be boxed into being disposable party music of the present.

Will I get called "fake" just because I only got into Kevin Martin's various projects over the years due to his work with Justin Broadrick of Godflesh/Jesu fame?

r|t|c i have no idea what the hell you are talking about

i don't like this nearly as much as non-fake dancehall.

"Is there a good one-stop release that presents the bombed-out, post-apocalypic side of grime?"

!?!?!

"Sir can recommend a good album for after the apocalypse? Preferably something with a 'bombed out' flavour?."

NB I don't think the real blueprint for this album is actually grime and dancehall but Massive Attack, if Massive Attack had spent as much time engaging with the music of the past few years as they did practising the moody face.

hey guys is it really shocking that the big dark urban spaces conjured by dancehall make people think "hmm what is dark and empty and urban why would a city be empty hmmmmmmmmmmm"

And yeah Judgement sounds like an outtake from Mezzanine

Results 1 - 4 of 4 for "mad max riddim". (0.28 seconds)

:D :D :D

Who knows whether the Bug is lasting. I won't know for quite a few years on that. I do think its a a big improvement over "Pressure". KM dropped the tempo and bandpassed out the squarewave static that attached itself to nearly every sound on that album. "London Zoo" is plainly a lot easier on the ears.

Also, I probably should have voted "Murder We". Its the only one I can hum from memory easily.

hey guys is it really shocking that the big dark urban spaces conjured by dancehall make people think "hmm what is dark and empty and urban why would a city be empty hmmmmmmmmmmm"

hoos the issue is that for some that's all (the thought of) dancehall ever conjures.

and alex, so uh yeah we basically agree? except for you then being into this record.

I have a much higher tolerance for these kinds of genre exercises than you do, I am guessing.

That said I am really surprised by the love this record has gotten. To my ears it doesn't sound appreciably better (or different) than most of the rest of his stuff.

yeah i'm not sure dancehall has ever made me think of "big dark urban spaces"

hoos the issue is that for some that's all (the thought of) dancehall ever conjures.

― r|t|c, Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:06 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

See pre-dubstep I never thought of dancehall as "post-apocalyptic" and I don't think anyone that actually listened to it would either. I mean damn check out this bombed-out futuristic landscape

http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/80/982180.jpg

^would enter her big dark urban space

That's kind of why I think of it as fake grime rather than fake dancehall - because big dark urban spaces are precisely what grime is going for a lot of the time. Dubstep even more so.

Matt was very otm upthread when he said this is a lot more fake grime than fake dancehall.

xposts obv.

It's not fake anything. It's just Kevin Martin doing his Kevin Martin boom boom boom thing with a bunch of MCs from various genres. It just so happens that it seems to have caught on with the dubstep zeitgeist or whatever which is good for marketing purposes for him.

Plus he called it London Town so everyone can pretend that it captures the essense of the city so yeah for that.

unless you've really got an axe to grind, "influenced by" works a lot better here than "fake"

ok excise fake still moree grimey than dancehally imo.

I didn't mean fake as pejorative.

i had a folder on my hd called bombhall for a while but that was for the crazy faster stuff (inc. shitmat, some dj/rupture type stuff) - if that was 'apocalyptic (fake) dancehall' then i can see why some of this stuff would be seen as the aftermath

the lines b/w grime rapping & dancehall toasting have never been super clear to me tbh can somebody taxonomize that shit

I didn't realize until I read London Zoo reviews how unpleasant London is. POST-APOCALYPTIC!

Spaceape was really fucked off when he got on the wrong branch of the Northern Line.

ANGER

http://www.pps.org/graphics/gpp/st_james_park_2_xlarge

This thread needs more Kevin Martin fans. He's always made bleak, paranoid, city-crumbling music, and "London Zoo" isn't that much different, sonically speaking, than plenty of other albums he's made (Alex is saying pretty much the same thing).

Having said that, Kevin Martin is like the first wave of Detroit techno dudes in that it's been 20 years but his stuff *still* sounds like the future, he's a master at this. But he hasn't suddenly became a new sort of visionary just because some grime and dubstep producers now happens to sound like him.

http://www.yell.com/images/uk/london/hampstead.jpg

MURDERING

English fascination w dystopian futurism goes back a long way (1984, Clockwork Orange, Blade Runner, Brazil, and so on). What's the enticement?

Is Blade Runner really "english" just because Ridley Scott was born there?

FUCKAZ

http://www.ticketslondon-online.biz/TransportMuseum/BusPhotos/RML2405/Gallery/tower/Beefeaters_big.jpg

Is Blade Runner really "english" just because Ridley Scott was born there?

― Alex in SF

Just threw that in there, don't wanna get derailed defending the Englishness of BR. But yeah, kinda. Plus Alien, too, which is the same, and way more dystopian than Aliens.

But less dystopian than Alien Cubed.

Americans can be dystopian, too, no argument. I always hope some interpretive leeway will be granted WR2 stuff like this, but end up getting called on the gray-area shit I'm using to fill in (rather than to make) my point. One of my many rhetorical shortcomings, I guess.

It's a little dowdy, but serviceable:

http://www.londonlogue.com/files/2006/11/londonzoo.jpg

Haha I wish there was a track on London Zoo that you could describe that way.

Actually I guess that 15 second snippet following the minutes of silence might quality.

qualify, grrr

okay please start a thread about the englishness of Alien

oh hell no

http://cardboardmonocle.com/blog/fxsuits/alien1.jpg

"Good day to you Sirs!"

alien (incubates in (colonizing rational empire) starship)> nostromo (corrupted in book by)> j.conrad (hyperenglishness incubated in foreigner)> also wrote secret agent (incubation of terrorism / uh bio-"cells" uh uh) > introduction of which has a burial/london zoo review which goes "then the vision of an enormous town presented itself, in its man-made might as if indifferent to heaven's frowns and smiles, darkness enough to bury five millions of lives" (proto-burial/london zoo review duh which also accurately describes)> the old trocadero in piccadilly circus (which featured an experience based on the movie called...)> ALIEN WAR

whilst blade runner is english cos i've spent years sat here voigt-kampffing motherfuckers like UGH

xpost once you get Spaceape to recite that over Techno Animal's "Ghosts" its Englishness will be complete!

only recently heard this record but I gotta say poison dart is most killer

agreed

So, uh, I hear it as dancehall strongly informed by grime/dubstep ethos. Or maybe taking grime and tipping it way back toward dancehall, but still keeping some of the grime in.

NoTime & Timezilla OTM upthread, WR2 origins. This sounds like the KM thing, influenced by grime, dubstep, dancehall, and people influenced by dancehall (shitmat, /rupture). Trying to say it belongs primarily to any one of those genres makes no sense.

I don't see it as being much informed by any of this stuff (maybe certain late-90s dancehall productions--heavier Ward 21, Steely & Clevie kind of stuff--but not much dancehall of recent vintage.) And the only grime connection is Flowdan, frankly, no one who listens to much grime would confuse Bug productions with anything created by Wiley, Jammer, Skepta, etc. Dubstep connect would seem to be almost coincedental, like dubstep and Martin have both been informed by certain similar influences (isolationism, R&S, digital dub, ON-U) rather than by one another.

Doesn't sound exactly like != not influenced by

i dont get this stuff at all

can someone link me to a review that effectively explains the appeal -- to me this sounds like generic everybody <3 the Rza + excuses to say 'dystopia' a lot. im not really sure i understand what hes even trying to do

"Doesn't sound exactly like != not influenced by"

Blech influence discussion part 600,002. Anyway I still don't see it. Vocals aside, most of this stuff seems more connected to Martin's previous work/collaborators than anything else.

sounds like dancehall for industrial fans (but in a different way than grime)

is this the 08 burial

In terms of critical response, probably, but they don't sound much alike.

Other than sort of existing on the fringe of the same genre, I guess.

Vocals aside, most of this stuff seems more connected to Martin's previous work/collaborators than anything else.

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― Alex in SF, Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:04 AM Bookmark

The vocals are a very big part of this record, and most of the rhythms in the beats seem rooted in dancehall. I'm not familiar enough with his previous work to confirm/deny what you say, but to say there's no dancehall in this seems kind of willful.

fwiw, I like London Zoo a lot more than either Burial record.

(and no they don't sound alike, nor does either sound like Rza)

But the reviews are an excuse for people to say dystopia a lot.

Which I care about not at all, but I guess it bugs(hah) some people.

i just get the feeling -- and im sure this is borderline troll-y of me to say -- that this stuff is like thuggish ruggish wallpaper, like, im trying to portray the vibe of roughneck status that you can use as a point of discussion when ppl see the cd on your coffee table during dinner parties. it just feels really unthreatening and instead sorta boringly abrasive

sorry if this is giving someone rockist vibes or something

(and no they don't sound alike, nor does either sound like Rza)

― beggin-ass keith (The Reverend), Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:10 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

thats the thing tho, it doesnt sound like him in terms of instrumentation or 'dancehall rhythms' or whatever but i read ppl talking about this the same way i read ppl talking about classic wu tang stuff, about how rza's making these dystopian minor key rough rugged & raw soundscapes -- totally defanged wu tang to me to some degree (nb i obv still love classic wu tang im just saying)

this is not to say that should i one day purchase a coffee table no limit cds wont also grace its surface -- this is more a rhetorical 'coffee table' here

strawtable

xxpost Stop reading ppl.

I could see how someone could find Martin's whole thing boringly abrasive though.

well i sorta feel like i have to read about it to understand whats good about it, so its appeal is heavily reliant on good writing to me

since im pretty divorced from whatever context its supposed to be coming from

i just get the feeling -- and im sure this is borderline troll-y of me to say -- that this stuff is like thuggish ruggish wallpaper, like, im trying to portray the vibe of roughneck status that you can use as a point of discussion when ppl see the cd on your coffee table during dinner parties. it just feels really unthreatening and instead sorta boringly abrasive

Don't know if I'm herbing myself out here, but I personally find something like "Skeng" a lot more genuinely scary/creepy than any current US rap. I don't see it as "defanged" at all.

i have a coffee table. we should have a "what's on your coffee table" thread.

i dont think 'scary/creepy' quite captures the vibe of either what im getting from this or what im talking about w/ rap music -- roughneck/ thuggish ruggish is less about scary altho i guess thats part of it

im looking at my rap albums of the year and none of it is particularly thuggish ruggish either -- except stuff like some nyg'z / blaq poet (altho premier tracks can undercut that effect sometimes)

I think the divorcement from its context make me like this a lot more than I might otherwise. It feels a lot more unknowable to me than whatever its US equivalent would be.

I was introduced to this by hearing the music first, rather than through reviews, so I didn't have that lens. Hoos posted a youtube of "Skeng" and I flipped the fuck out for it there and then. I'm not sure how reading a bunch of reviews for it beforehand would have changed my perspective. (I saw that it was getting rave reviews, but just assumed it was some indie rock thing I wouldn't be interested in until I heard something from it)

The thuggish/ruggishness I get from this is lot more matter-of-fact and less blustery than what I get from most US (current at least) rap. It's that matter-of-factness that I find very appealing.

i have to read about it to understand whats good about it, so its appeal is heavily reliant on good writing to me ... since im pretty divorced from whatever context its supposed to be coming from

― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej)

actually i kinda like skeng, altho its more about whoever that dude is rapping on it -- beat sounds kinda awkward -- but rapper reminds me of "petrol" by ward 21

I hear the album kinda as a soundtrack to awful third-world (yeah, I know it's UK, but bear with me) violence shit like this: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/AP/story/807485.html

...moreso than whatever futurist dystopia reviewers keep ascribing to it.

"the soundtrack to awful third world"

actually i kinda like skeng, altho its more about whoever that dude is rapping on it -- beat sounds kinda awkward -- but rapper reminds me of "petrol" by ward 21

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― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej), Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:30 AM Bookmark

Yeah, I do feel like the album is a lot more driven by the vocals than many people are giving credit for.

That's weird, Deej. You mean you can't just like a given song (or record or artist) if you don't understand the context it's supposted to be coming from? Would a lot of other folx agree with this? Seems so strange... I mean, sure, sometimes you have to work to get the hang of things, but I tend to think that the music that hits the mainstream is that which has some universal appeal, outside of genre confines -- Like "Skeng", f'rinstance.

― Suggest Ban Permalink (contenderizer), Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:29 PM (45 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

nah im not making any universal statements about this at all -- the reason im struggling to like this is because it sounds kinda bland and undistinguished to me so im struggling to figure out a context or explanation that would make it appealing to me -- like a hint for what i should be listening for

way to take my words out of context, contenderizer

like a hint for what i should be listening for

way to take my words out of context, contenderizer

rev do u know "petrol"?

http://www.amazon.com/Petrol-Explicit/dp/B000QZ417M

gay, awful, third, world, violence

xp: no, but I'll check it out

"But (Martin) hasn't suddenly became a new sort of visionary just because some grime and dubstep producers now happens to sound like him."

Thank you for this. I've been listening to Martin's work for, what, ten years or so. The Bug never struck me as a radical departure from the underlying feeling his music has always expressed. It's bleak, mechanical, and has always - from the earliest reviews I remember - been described as "post-apocalyptic". Dubstep producers always struck me as people who met Grime and Kevin Martin halfway. I think this album, more so than Pressure, is in the same gray area as Burial's stuff - even if they wouldn't fit on the same mix tape together.

I voted for Poison Dart.

lol i went back to check i hadn't said "dystopian" in my review.

i'm surprised no one mentioned ragga/jungle when the conversation re k-mart's influences happened, it's got the same gaping, cavernous feel to it. don't think that calling the bug sound a "version" of anything else is that accurate, there are elements of dancehall/dubstep/grime but "imfluence" is a tangled web indeed in those genres, he's not unique in that.

the most striking difference to me is that you wouldn't be able to drop a bug track into a dancehall/dubstep/grime set, the sounds are too randomly booming and the beats lack the relevant grooves...he's on the fringes of those genres b/c his music doesn't have a place in the club-focused face of the scene but he's not positioning himself as an outsider either.

ok so i know what hes NOT -- but what is he??

lex can i read what u wrote about him??

The Bug never struck me as a radical departure from the underlying feeling his music has always expressed. It's bleak, mechanical, and has always - from the earliest reviews I remember - been described as "post-apocalyptic".

yes i meant to say this - k-mart's been doing this thing since before dubstep and grime in their current incarnations existed - i don't think his aesthetic has changed all that much in that time, it's just that on london zoo it's been refined into a full-length format really well

he's a maverick deej! i only did a capsule rvw & didn't talk about genre http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/jul/04/electronicmusic.filmandmusic1

'aktion pak' from a couple of years ago is much more explicitly dancehall -

Martin's use of noise and discordance is monolithic rather than frenetic - dense, yet endlessly involving, and always carefully structured for maximum impact. Moreover, as apocalyptic as his vision can be, the thrill as he pushes his sounds further outwards proves to be as seductive as it is forbidding.

^^^what does this mean? i dont mean to be glib just that this seems to be the 'key' here
or maybe this is the time where i just say "oh well to each his own" and give up trying

i mean i'm only being semi-facetious when i say 'maverick', guess i see him as being in the lineage of auteurs like tricky, whose fringe status wrt their particular underground scenes makes them more appealing to mainstream critics, which i guess is suspicious talk (awaits sarky rtc comment) but that's just how it is sometimes.

i basically meant that it sounds abrasive and weird but you can still "lose yourself" in it in the same way that you can in its club-based relatives

on a further "isn't warrior queen amazing" tip:

auteurs like tricky, whose fringe status wrt their particular underground scenes makes them more appealing to mainstream critics

i dont think thats true

i mean, i would put it more like this -- there is a strain of rhetoric w/in pop music discourse + the wider public that appreciates that which stands apart

i dont think this means it always prefers it. its more a rhetorical tactic than anything else i think

deej have you heard much dubstep btw?

am just thinking off the cuff about how k-mart's beats work - the abrasive cavernous feel is far closer to dubstep, but he kind of riddim-ises them to yank the sound back dancehallwards. and the random jungle element in there pulls it away from either. i do wonder whether k-mart thinks in terms of genre rules when he makes his beats.

further i dont think this is somehow an album without a context -- thats some white privilege-type b.s.

nah i dont really get dubstep either -- just doesnt appeal, but i didnt really try since the overall aesthetic seemed sorta dull to me

deej can you cite some recent examples of stuff that feels actually threatening, I would like to hear that music.

Deej: I was saying that the records that break out of niche scenes (or seem, sometimes unfairly, to represent them) are usually cavalier WR2 the conventional rules governing success or failure within the niche. And they're often viewed askance within the niche for this reason. I'm calling this characteristic "having a singular identity", but I can see why that might ruffle feathers: you could just as well call it "conforming to a pop identity".

further i dont think this is somehow an album without a context -- thats some white privilege-type b.s.

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― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej), Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:59 AM Bookmark

I don't think anyone is trying to argue this. A lot of this thread consists of argument over what that context is.

except saying that the bug is "conforming to a pop identity" is...yeah.

it's more to do w/being seen as an auteur in a scene of faceless producers

xp

well deej I can't front that was fucking awesome

yeah that nygz track was A+

though as this thread seems largely to be about, I'd guess "threatening" depends a lot on a personal connection to hard-to-define cultural touchstones & context - those minor-key hits could as easily be corny as ominous you know?

the craziest is how he says hes keeping razors under his tongue and a knife in his ass -- thats http://www.soulstrut.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hard2.gif

honestly i think the minor-key beat is so low budget & mercenary it becomes ruff just bcuz they couldnt afford to try to even sound scary

they're too busy storing weapons in their body cavities to fuck with producing

yeah, the "knife in the ass" line is very o_O in a good way

Listening to Pressure for the first time now. So far, pretty awesome.

just checked for some joints offa this on youtube & shit sounds like funkstorung

Haha so you love it then.

NYG'z track is great, and lyrics might be kinda scary, but made funny by distance and wit. There is, on the other hand, NOTHING scary about anything on London Zoo. Scary-ish lyrics are clearly just texture. Amazed anyone's wasting time worrying about that angle.

Right, because your response is the only legitimate one. And what the hell is "Scar-ish lyrics are clearly just texture" supposed to mean?

I mean that the album's defining identity is the producers, not the lyricists' (as important as their contributions may be). So whatever they happen to say is just the verbal texture applied to this or that track. Of course this is just my opinion, and not the only possible response. Still, I'm surprised that folks would take it any other way. Not based on that logic, though: just based on the feel of the record. It doesn't feel as though it's trying to threaten anyone or to come across as legitimately dangerous, but rather to explore things, perhaps scary things, and to entertain along the way. Again, just may take...

I'm personally not too interested in the whole topic of what my comfy middle-class white ass finds "threatening" w/r/t rap, or dancehall, or whatever. I guess The Bug doesn't trigger some latent fear of angry black people, which is fine because that's not really something I look for in music or anything else.

I don't think The Bug is trying to be "scary"; I think it is often (especially on Pressure) an expression of social/political rage, but not trying to induce some kind of fear of the artist in the listener.

What I really like about Martin's production work on this album is how much more emphasis he puts on the bleak sounding atmospherics. Pressure was raw and stripped down compared to his earlier work, but this album is very full sounding. I haven't dug into this album a lot, tbh, but my overall impression of it is that he may have smoked more weed while producing it, and there are definitely some mournful elements to the slower songs on here that I find really welcome.

btw, to my ears that NYG'z track sounds like a producer whose entire CD collection consists of RZA and Premier productions. I like it! Doesn't scare me, though.

I think it is Premo. (deej correct me if wrong)

Or not, but they are affiliated with Premier

That would make sense. I really like it, but it definitely dates back to mid/late 90s NYC rap to me.

I'm personally not too interested in the whole topic of what my comfy middle-class white ass finds "threatening" w/r/t rap, or dancehall, or whatever. I guess The Bug doesn't trigger some latent fear of angry black people, which is fine because that's not really something I look for in music or anything else.

I don't think The Bug is trying to be "scary"; I think it is often (especially on Pressure) an expression of social/political rage, but not trying to induce some kind of fear of the artist in the listener.

What I really like about Martin's production work on this album is how much more emphasis he puts on the bleak sounding atmospherics. Pressure was raw and stripped down compared to his earlier work, but this album is very full sounding. I haven't dug into this album a lot, tbh, but my overall impression of it is that he may have smoked more weed while producing it, and there are definitely some mournful elements to the slower songs on here that I find really welcome.

btw, to my ears that NYG'z track sounds like a producer whose entire CD collection consists of RZA and Premier productions. I like it! Doesn't scare me, though.

― fwiw (rockapads), Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:45 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

u dont 'get it'

its not about the beat on 'bow down'

something about the bug tracks sounds oddly '90s to me, maybe it's the aggression.

i mean, its about a subtext to the beat on 'bow down' -- like i said upthread, they dont give a fuck about NEXT LEVEL 'bleak sounding atmospherics' bcuz the point is they are REAL and therefore who gives a fuck -- if you are a dude in jail who kept a knife in his ass you dont give a shit about dystopian soundscapes or whatever

premier is all over the record btw

and the point isnt about 'ahh scary black men,' white ppl make plenty of scary music too, im arguing that this record is actually more guilty of relying on 'scary black men' + 'dark dystopian beats' to sound scary -- and ends up sounding like the alt weekly top ten version, a bunch of scary jamaican dude signifiers without any of the actual feeling of 'scariness' that goes into a track like say petrol

scary is also def a misnomer -- i think its being really reductive about the vibe i was talking about -- 'ruggedness' isnt about just race or just feeling afraid or something, its about a feeling of authenticity, an attempt to strip away the notion that u are experiencing a performance and instead constructing a world that feels immersive and real

premier is all over the record btw

― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej), Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:27 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

(but not this track)

something about the bug tracks sounds oddly '90s to me, maybe it's the aggression.

― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:26 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

the comparison to Tricky seems most OTM to me

Sorry to move the goalposts a bit, but, "Skeng" aside, I think the album is more trying to tap into a righteous anger than to be threatening, and to that end I think it succeeds.

I do find London Zoo immersive and real, but please lets not go down the "authenticity" rabbit hole.

i think we are still getting caught up here w/ a misunderstanding -- i think when i say 'nonthreatening' i dont mean as in the opposite of 'threatening' but more like the opposite of 'real' -- (or obv the impression of realness) -- like its not convincing me of the vibe its supposedly going for

so basically it comes down again to "to each his own" i guess

I don't get any sense of charade from the album, if that is what your impression is.

maybe i just dont 'get it'

Yeah, I think so.

enjoy your dystopian soundscapes :D

Haha, "Dystopian soundscapes" makes it sound way more zzzzzzz than it is.

Maybe if I'd read a whole bunch of crap about that before hearing it, I'd be suspicious, too.

rev 100% otm re righteous anger

I don't get a sense of charade, either, but I sort of understand what deej is saying. To me, Bow Down is primarily the rap. The production/beat seems to exist only to set the lyric off (just my perception, of course). And the lyric seems v. sincere in its attempt to demonstrate hardness, realness, threat. Therefore, the attempt to seem threatening is a big part of the song's identity.

The Bug works differently. Though the vocals are an important part of each track, this is a producer's record. Its primary identity is conveyed not through the lyrics but through the music, the arrangements, the decisions that match this vocalist with that track. This in turn makes the lyrics seem more like a distanced, aestheticized artistic choice than a direct statement of any kind.

And, yeah, to the extent that they are a statement, more political than personal.

I don't buy that it's the producer's album, therefor the intent of the vocalists doesn't matter. I mean, if you wanna look at it that way, then one can just counterargue that Martin chose those artists specifically for their ability to express the vibe he was going for, which...DUH!

the bug needs to do a song with some psycho grime MCs.

"psycho"

actually, if he did something with say, tempa t or someone, it might not be that good a balance. the tracks with flowdan work cos flowdan isnt as aggressive as the beats.

I'm not saying that the vocals don't matter, just that their ability to speak directly is muffled (if only slightly) by context. But, I dunno... What I'm talking about is at least as much a perceptual artifact as anything intrinsic in the music. Still, dude has a KNIFE IN HIS ASS!

^^^^^

I'm not saying that the vocals don't matter, just that their ability to speak directly is muffled (if only slightly) by context. But, I dunno... What I'm talking about is at least as much a perceptual artifact as anything intrinsic in the music.

Sure. I just don't buy into that.

i mean, its about a subtext to the beat on 'bow down' -- like i said upthread, they dont give a fuck about NEXT LEVEL 'bleak sounding atmospherics' bcuz the point is they are REAL and therefore who gives a fuck -- if you are a dude in jail who kept a knife in his ass you dont give a shit about dystopian soundscapes or whatever

― K DEF FROM REAL LIVE (deej)

So you're saying that you can better relate to the guy with a knife in his ass in prison. That's cool, I get that. Me personally, I go for the dark sci-fi fiction over the gritty street fiction. Doesn't mean one is better than the other, just means you're probably looking for something in The Bug's music that isn't there.

Hey sometime this week this thread got awesome btw

It will be back to fighting soon enough

Unless that is what you thought was awesome

It's not so much about being able to relate to situations, rockapads, as about how the records seem to relate to us. If a dude tells me he's got a knife in his ass, my gut reponse will depend to a large degree on whether or not I believe him, and if I do, how likely I think he is to wash the knife before trying to stab me with it. When it comes to art, the upshot is that the meaning of statements depends to a large degree on artistic positioning. This isn't just projection. Crime fiction is not the same as "true crime", and the difference lies in how the two genres present themselves to us. Even in fiction-qua-fiction, the authorial pose (and even if we're unaware of that context, the narrative tone) adopted by the likes of Mikey Spillane and James Ellroy colors the function and effect of their writing. In reading them, we are meant to understand that they are tough, no bullshit dudes who have SEEN SOME SHIT. Whether or not we buy into or or even recognize this mythology, it exists as a sort of ghostly literary device.

For NYG'z, thug realism is clearly part of the artistic intent. It doesn't matter whether or not we think of their storytelling as fiction or as documentary reality, NYG'z intentionally present it as the latter. This is an artistic decision, and it's communicated at every level in the work: carefully observed situational minutia, steely hostility of tone, repeated assurances that what we're hearing is real. Even the budget beats (pre-associated with the musical true crime genre) reassure us that this is not "mere fiction". Like The Blair Witch Project or L.A. Confidential, The Ass-Knife Song hopes we will believe that SHIT IS REAL -- that the threats promised might well be acted upon. At the very least, it wants us to suspend disbelief long enough for certain feelings to take hold.

This true-crime/horror movie approach isn't what The Bug is about. Throughout London Zoo, the music vies for attention with the lyrics, and the overall effect reassures us that we're listening to the work of sophisticated, cosmopolitan artistes. KM and co. aren't attempting to convince us that they're cold-hearted killers, or even that they know the killer's world from the ground up. Instead, it seems as though we're meant to perceive the music entirely within "fictional" terms, as a series of artistic decisions with political implications. To the extent the MCs involved pull the nasty face, this means that by certain standards, the record does come up short, fake, reeking of coffee table hardness. But that's totally beside the point. "Authentic" danger has nothing to do with The Bug's artistic aims, so it doesn't matter that London Zoo fails to pass some irrelevant realness test.

lol @ "The Ass-Knife Song"

see, but my contention is that its trying to trade off of 'hardness' regardless -- its using a bunch of signifiers of 'hard' music and trying to make 'legit' versions of it -- now to be fair this is a huge assumption on my part but im not sure what else im supposed to get about it. just being dystopian is meaningless -- what sets it apart?

im being kind of troll-y at this pt tho -- no need to argue w/ me unless someone thinks they've got something to say new here

Setting apart? I dunno. To my ears, London Zoo sounds like a semi-fresh permutation of a sound I've been hearing for a decade or more. I really, really like the production, especially the basslines. It catches my ear and sounds appealing. So my response is a pop response, pleasure principle stuff. I not any kind of expert on contemporary dub-influenced club music, so I wouldn't make any great claims for the uniqueness of London Zoo. Then again, I don't have to be certain that something is GROUNDBREAKING! to know that I like it.

As far as the hardness thing goes, if we accept that hardness is an artistic stance, legit and self-aware as any other, why can't it be borrowed and repurposed to suit whatever aims? Does it always have to be really real? I mean, personally, I don't care whether or not black metal bands REALLY worship satan or hate humanity or feel the terrible pain of mind. I just want the shit to sound wicked. (Maybe I'm being trolly here, with my fake naivete and all. I dunno...)

yah i mean -- im not saying it needs to be groundbreaking -- i just want to 'understand' it and i think at this pt im just gonna be like shrug its not for me.

but yeah hardness can be borrowed whether or not its true, im sure black metal bands can be convincing, but again to me w/in the context here it just doesnt sound particularly hard, but it sounds like thats what a lot of ppl are saying about it anyway -- i mean i dont think 'appropriation' is really the right word to use here, merely that mood-wise its not really capturing that kind of gut-level rugged vibe to ME that (im getting the impression) other ppl are attaching to it. like it seems firmly in this rza/tricky/whoever else vein of minor key clanky music = serious good 'dystopian' sounds and at this pt its not a particularly fresh direction; just a few new sonic tricks in an otherwise static set of mood pieces

but of course there are probably plenty of things i dig that ppl see the same way -- i think the reason it 'matters' to me here to bring it up is bcuz of the logic brought up upthread, the argument that this stands out and its critical appreciation is more deserved bcuz it is so singular when compared to generic dancehall -- to me its more like in the vein of tricky to burial appreciation, a sound from an auteur incorporating influences and making dark instrumental music -- not so much a radical break, but maybe a refinement of an older formula w/ a few new influences.

Throughout London Zoo, the music vies for attention with the lyrics, and the overall effect reassures us that we're listening to the work of sophisticated, cosmopolitan artistes. KM and co. aren't attempting to convince us that they're cold-hearted killers, or even that they know the killer's world from the ground up. Instead, it seems as though we're meant to perceive the music entirely within "fictional" terms, as a series of artistic decisions with political implications. To the extent the MCs involved pull the nasty face, this means that by certain standards, the record does come up short, fake, reeking of coffee table hardness. But that's totally beside the point. "Authentic" danger has nothing to do with The Bug's artistic aims, so it doesn't matter that London Zoo fails to pass some irrelevant realness test.

I agree with everything you wrote about the Ass-Knife Song, but this is where you lose me. I don't know much about Kevin Martin, but the impression of him and his vocalists that this album leaves me with isn't that of "sophisticated, cosmopolitan artistes", which is an awful strawman anyway. You seem to be under the misassumption that London Zoo is intended as any sort of crime drama, fictional or not, when there is only one song on the album that aims for this. (I think that song pulls off its thug realism quite well, even if it doesn't have any particular line as o_O as the "knife in my ass" line. Most "thug realist" songs don't.) I mean, it basically sounds like you're saying "this album isn't trying to be all about crime this, murder that, therefor it isn't convincingly all about crime this, murder that", which is a mean piece of circular logic. Most of the songs are trying to express anger about social issues, and I don't see you trying to engage with that aspect of the album at all when you can just pretend the album is something other than what it is in the first place, not that many of the people who like the album aren't doing the same.

Pressure was way way way better than this album BTFW

Off one listen to Pressure, it starts off great and trails off at the end, because some of the later tracks have too little going on, but don't really tension out of the minimalism in an interesting way.

Rev: I thought I was pretty clear about the album's political aims, at least in passing. Maybe not... Anyway, my suggestion was that when the MC's try to talk tough, as Flowdan does on Skeng, the vibe attempted/acheived isn't thug realism, though he's arguably borrowing heat from that approach. And in calling London Zoo "fictional", I wasn't calling it crime fiction, specifically. Where Bow Down presents itself as a message from the underworld, London Zoo presents itself as a portrait of a society in decay. Fictional in that the portrait is, to some degree, imaginative rather than strictly documentary. More J.G. Ballard than Iceberg Slim.

I'm still stumped on how to answer deej. First up, sure: London Zoo is an example of something that's been going on for a while, not some brave new world. Slots in fine with Tricky, Monkey Mafia, Techno Animal & older Bug stuff, recent /rupture, dancehall & dubstep as genres (though it doesn't belong to either). But there's nothing wrong with any of that that, right? Those aren't intrinsically damnable influences/peers, are they?

So, even if you don't like it much, what's not to "get"? The basslines are deep and nodding, KM has a way with slurred atmospherics and nasal drones that enhance tension without getting in the way of the groove (Angry, Murder We), some of the tracks have catchy vocal performances/hooks (Poison Dart, Murder We, Skeng). Considered as a clubby-feeling pop-not-pop record, its points of appeal seem self-evident. And from where I stand, a lot of it just plain works. On the other hand, with regard to stuff like Spaceape's Fuckaz, I totally get where you're coming from. A flat rehash of sounds I've heard a thousand times before, and the vocal is woefully unconvincing, even embarassing. But there's more good stuff here than bad, and I disagree that Pressure was better, as some have said. The druggy groove and nods to general accessiblity here seem much more appealing than Pressure's stony relentlessness.

Poll finishes on friday, don't let the thread die now!

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

bump

2 hours left

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I'm guessing Poison Dart

Hey, look, it's Poison Dart

"Poison Dart" isn't even the better Warrior Queen track

so only 1 without a vote. Not bad.

One of the best, I tells youz.

Some interesting discussion on this thread. I've been a fan of Martin's for years, from God's Possession onward basically (that was about 1990, I think). I kinda think London Zoo is the weakest of his dancehall-influenced work; I much prefer Pressure and Aktion Pak, not to mention the "Gun Disease" single with Cutty Ranks and the whole run of Razor X Productions singles (compiled as Killing Sound). I think where London Zoo fails is its attempt to come to grips with/incorporate the sound and style of dubstep. When Martin was doing steel-bars-crashing-on-the-concrete dancehall on all the other releases I mentioned, he didn't really sound like anybody else. Now, though, he's trying to sort of glom onto dubstep (and particularly, it seems to me, those aspects of dubstep most highly regarded by the editors of The Wire) and consequently falling short. Especially since (to my untrained, caveman-like ear anyway) dubstep as a genre isn't doing anything that the crew at WordSound Records weren't doing over a decade ago.

hmm

dude made a good record let's leave it at that

Angry feauring Tippa Irie 7

AYYYY MACARENA

lol

lol x2

that and the "dancehall for industrial fans" comment too. The beats here are such a Rorschach. I frankly don't hear much dubstep in the results, even if it was an ingredient. Dubstep is an abandoned street at 2 AM, this is a crowded street riot at dusk.

i'm baffled by ilx's response to this album. i remember coming on here ages ago espousing the virtues of "pressure" (which has much more interesting moments on it than this) and being told it was nothing but useless fruity-loops based nonsense.

The beats here are such a Rorschach.

^^^prob the most otm thing anyone's said in this thread

hurm

Angry feauring Tippa Irie 7

AYYYY MACARENA

― Dr. Yakubius (and what), viernes 19 de diciembre de 2008 15:09 (5 hours ago) Bookmark

Ugh, exactly.

It's actually EEEEEH MACARENA

Angry's my favorite off the bat, but I also realized as I was loving it that the beat is the same as all those mid-90s club remixes / fake dancehall rap projects.

I just caught the line "shot in the face like dart through a board"

Angry feauring Tippa Irie 7

AYYYY MACARENA

― Dr. Yakubius (and what), viernes 19 de diciembre de 2008 15:09 (5 hours ago)

lol mad correct

thought i would reinvestigate this but apart from the more grime/dubstep informed tracks, i still think theres something not exactly 'dated', but quite a bit less forward looking and 90s redolent about the rest of it. i know hes big into soundsystem tradition/dub so he prob felt he had to touch on that somewhere but id be more interested if it was all more right in that space between the bugs mutations of old school dub/dancehall and grime/dubstep.

probably would've voted 'Insane'

Got the new single "Ganja"/"Flying" in the mail this weekend. It's not great. The former has Killa P and Flowdan and is aggressive/upbeat, the latter has Ricky Ranking and is slower/dubbier. But again, they're both just okay. I think he peaked with Pressure and the Razor X singles.

Angry really reminds me of Boom by Flight of the Conchords. Makes it a bit hard to take seriously.

best thing he did was that remix for T.Raumschmiere, Rabaukendisko (The Bug’s Dancehell RMX feat. Ras Bogle).
still knocks me sideways that track.

been playin this junt out lately & "warning" is my shit

"Jah War" came on iTunes shuffle and my girlfriend goes, "OMG is this Sean Paul on your computer???"

haha anything with dancehall vocals = sean paul

I like The Bug but Sean Paul > The Bug

http://www.thewire.co.uk/images/artists/bug__the/originals/cover317.jpg

Kevin Martin on the WIRE cover?? Shocking!

man, i did a lot of typing on this thread

Not a huge Bug stan, but this new track is good. Doesn't exactly deviate from the norm, but it feels a little more sprightly than some of London Zoo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrWJK1rjOHE

two songs from the long-overdue new album, angels & devils, released yesterday (collaborations with death grips and gonjasufi).

i like the slowed-to-a-crawl, ominous-vibe on that gonjasufi song.