Bruce Springsteen vs. Neil Young

I deny they were bad.

Also when I say 'undeniably bad for a period' I don't mean that entire decade.

I love Bruce. Love him live, love his albums, love his NJ/Philly rock. But I also love Neil Young. So hard to choose between them... it kinda comes down to my parents. My mother always played Young for me growing up, but my dad was always a Boss guy. Grrr. Cannot decide!

I guess it comes down to Born to Run V. Harvest.

fair enough. I saw Bruce solo acoustic in the '90s, and Neil with Crazy Horse in the 80's and that shit was world class.

I voted Bruce, and that is a hard choice.

dang, I think I saw Neil in the 90's, but who cares. If we were debating the best of the off decade, Neil might win.

Maybe Neil should always win.

Nils Lofgren

oh and TS within the TS
streets of philadelphia vs. philadelphia

Streets of Philadelphia. Definitely.

Springsteen will probably always mean more to me, because I buy into his persona. Both the miserable suicidal songs about broken dreams and the big tent rock and roll party. It's a great big show, but the sentiments are real.

Neil Young means so much to me as guitar player and a sonic architect, but fewer of his songs reach me emotionally. He does have a bigger body of work, and if i was picking favorite songs he might have many of them.

Maybe Bruce has depressed me more often than Neil.

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Whoa so has the 3 image limit been lifted or what

It is 10 now.

Bruce didn't break through to me until maybe two years ago, my love is too new. Time may change things, but gotta go Neil for the guitars alone (I think the Boss is sometimes under-recognized/underrated for his guitar playing but Neil just wins imo).

It's kinda metaphorical tho. Like the camera is Neil Young and Bruce Springsteen's crotch is Bruce Springsteen's crotch.

lol

If Neil Young had done that, it would have been Greendale.

And it would have been a return to relevance.

I expect Springsteen to lose this. I'm tempted to vote for him, but I still haven't convinced myself fully. The world he paints as an artist is obv 10x clearer than Young's, both on his basic radio friendly level - (it's fun being young but it's tough being working class) - and on a much deeper Darkness/Nebraska level, when he starts writing dark little short stories with a morally ambiguous endings. Sorta complex, but he's never really hiding the ball. OTOH, there's something to be said for Neil Young-esque wtf opaque lyrics and you could criticize Springsteen for being so obvious and hamfisted in comparison. BITUSA vs Keep on Rockin - Bruce is (yeah yeah duh) hiding the ball a little bit with the production, Neil Young is...uh...definitely saying something about America...I guess...

Another point in Springsteen's favor:
Neil Young's weirdo Reagan sympathy vs. Springsteen not letting em use BITUSA

I actually enjoyed the Super Bowl crotch slide and the guitar swinging around his neck more than the music

Yeah but Bruce having better thoughts politically doesn't really sell me his records whereas the fact that Neil Young is a total goon sorta does. xp

Neil fumbles more often and doesn't even seem interested in getting to the Super Bowl.

But that Super Bowl show was totally ace!! This is Springsteen all the way, bear in mind that Springsteen blowing up Jim Steinman's mind gave us a truckload of wonderfully bombastic albums, whereas Young's spawned shit like Yield.

it's Bruce for me though it's a tough one, i sorta feel like saying in the long run Neil might've done stuff that will (err) last longer throughout history. (though judging them on this decade i think Bruce would win too)

i also deny Springsteen was bad in the nineties though, what the heck did he do in the nineties? virtually nothing. + Streets of Philadelphia is classic and makes up for the Human Touch/Lucky Town crap.

Springsteen. I'm from NJ and it's impossible to overstate his popularity here. You could make an argument that The Boss is more popular in NJ than anybody, anywhere else. Maybe U2 in Dublin, but that's about it.

both undeniably bad for a period (in the 80s for Young, 90s for Springsteen) - and are now in their late career making enjoyable but rarely essential music.

Is this the consensus now? If so, I don't get it. Don't see what's so enjoyable about the music either is making now, and I'll take Reactor or Trans (and yeah, "Streets of Philadelphia" I guess) over anything either of them have done since.

that Super Bowl show was totally ace!!

I dunno, "Tenth Ave Freezeout" blew me away & "Glory Days" was a lot of dumb fun, but I actually thought "Born To Run" (only one of the four songs he couldn't not do) was kind of underwhelming, and figured he was really lucky to have hired that gospel choir to salvage that half-assed new song.

Anyway, Neil vs Bruce is a real close call. Guess I'll take Bruce today since I like rock'n'roll more than folk music, and since I've been playing his debut album a lot the last couple of years. But I could just as well change my mind next time I vote.

Bruce sux , really hard. Neil Young all the way.

Reactor or Trans over anything either of them have done since.

Over anything Neil's done since, I meant, and over anything Bruce has done post-Born in the U.S.A. (though I do like Tunnel Of Love okay.)

Neil

God, the new song he played last night was awful.

Neil Young, because of the fiery electric guitar overloads, the sappy ballads, the swinging moods, the ridicolously bad albums he littered everywhere and the pleasure he took in destroying his own image (Reagan sympathy included) - also, I'd like to have an uncle like him.

The day Bruce Springsteen releases a one-track, 30 minute album of stitched-together feedback squeals, maybe I'll like him 1/10 as much as Neil Young.

I guess it comes down to Born to Run V. Harvest.

― Mordy, Monday, February 2, 2009 7:54 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i don't know any neil fans that think harvest is close to his best record.

anyway, love bruce mostly but yeah it's just not even close, neil is so fascinating to me.

Also, Neil wouldnt make a complete asshole out of himself at Super Bowl halftime like Springsteen did.

ah whatever it was fun, super bowl halftime shows are fun dude! the ref part was LOL i thought...

but neil is an asshole in a much deeper and complex way than springsteen

I like Broooce, sure, but Neil beats him every decade for me. Even the 80s, bros. I find Neil's 80s records to be kind of touching -- they seem so contrarian, so lost and angry. And I definitely RELATE more to Neil Young ... Springsteen seems more like a cartoon character (not a total diss, mind you) -- but it's the Boss's thing to be authoritative/voice of the people/populist, which is all well and good, but there are times when it wears thin. I love Neil Young for his faults as well as his incredible strengths.

I'm from NJ and it's impossible to overstate his popularity here.

Yeah, it's why I've always resisted him, successfully, from my hi skule days.

Both of these dudes write a lot of songs in character, but I've met a number of ladies who object to what they see as a persistent strain of misogyny in NY's music - mostly in songs that don't seem to be in character, like "Stupid Girl" "Down By The River" "A Man Needs a Maid" (yeah, these are all really old.)

Anyone on this thread find that a problem with Neil, or just a problem with oversensitive womens?

I can see ladies having issues with those particular songs ... but those are definitely of a time, as you note (not just for Neil Young but for singer-songwriters in general). I actually wish Bruce had more sort of "problematic" songs along those lines -- the women in his songs are usually sort of voiceless idealized angels.

the stuff i like by Neil (Buffalo Springfield -> the end of the 70's) >> the stuff I like by Bruce (first three or so records and a stray single her or there since)

the stuff by Bruce I could take or leave (evertyhing else he's done) >>>> the Neil stuff from 80s ->

I've met a number of ladies who object to what they see as a persistent strain of misogyny in NY's music

"Little girls" say hello. Remember this? Not sure where this was first published:
Springsteen termed "sexist"1/21/82
"The New York chapter of the National Organization for Women has instigated a letter and phone-call appeal directed at Bruce Springsteen, demanding that he stop referring to women as "little girls" in his songs. "He is writing and singing sexist music," said NOW's Executive Director, Virginia Cornue. The protest is the brainchild of Kathy Tepes, a national NOW consciousness-raising task-force member. "When you call us 'little girls,' reads one of the three letters Tepes has sent to Springsteen, "you perpetuate the myth that we women do things in a 'small' way." In a postscript, Tepes does some name-changing herself: "To counterbalance your rough and tough image with your nickname, "the Boss," I for one call you a Twinkie and Brucie." A spokeswoman at Springsteen's office defended his use of 'little girls," calling it a "rock and roll term."
The spokeswoman noted that no calls or letters had yet been received in connection with their appeal, except from a few NOW members wishing to dissociate themselves from the project."

hmmm ... must've been a slow week for NOW.

i don't know any neil fans that think harvest is close to his best record.

Really? I'm a huge Neil fan and I think Harvest is his best album. And I know a lot of people who feel that way too. In fact, I thought that was the common consensus.

Nah...Rust Never Sleeps or maybe Tonight's the Night in my crowd.

hm, really? I guess I'd think that most big Neil fans would lean either towards the Crazy Horse stuff or some of the darker albums -- On The Beach, Tonight's The Night, etc.

xpost

In my crowd it's Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere but there are many different Neils...

I mean, I'm not saying Harvest is obviously his best album, or that everyone has to like it, but for example, "After the Gold Rush" (my second fave album) is 71 on Rolling Stone's top album list, and "Harvest" is 78. Which isn't to say RS is right, but is to say that at least the predictable rock magazine ranks them the way I've always seen them ranked.

yeah i dunno, to me "goldrush" and "harvest" are pretty similar except goldrush is just way better

Both of these dudes write a lot of songs in character, but I've met a number of ladies who object to what they see as a persistent strain of misogyny in NY's music - mostly in songs that don't seem to be in character, like "Stupid Girl" "Down By The River" "A Man Needs a Maid" (yeah, these are all really old.)

But "A Man Needs a Maid" is so damn weird in its honesty, and I can certainly "relate" to it. This is what exhaustion sounds like (complete with rock excess in the arrangements): on tour everyone wants a piece of you, so it makes perfect sense that you'd want the least demanding creature taking care fo you.

"Old Man" is on Harvest.

i could stump for a lot of them as my favorite, but i guess if i had to give someone only one record, "Rust Never Sleeps" combines most of the good things about neil in one record.

I like a couple of Springsteen songs, but this is Neil by a longshot for me.

Goldrush >>>>> Harvest

Neil hands down

Neil is also the only one of only three players who are among my favorite acoustic and electric guitarists (the others are Richard Thompson and John McLaughlin - why do I hate America?)

caption this photo

http://www.morethings.com/music/springsteen/bruce_springsteen_photos/bruce_springsteen_and_neil_young.jpg

bruce's drunk ramblings on "street hassle" are : ) :) : )

but Broose doesn't get drunk!

"I find Neil's 80s records to be kind of touching -- they seem so contrarian, so lost and angry"

For what's worth, I totally agree with this.

Does Bruce really not drink? What kinda regular joe is he?

neil young's closer to dylan than springsteen and springsteen is closer to g.e. smith and the snl band than he is neil young

Is this the consensus now? If so, I don't get it. Don't see what's so enjoyable about the music either is making now, and I'll take Reactor or Trans (and yeah, "Streets of Philadelphia" I guess) over anything either of them have done since.

Shoulda been more clear - mid-80s for Neil Young (anyone gonna defend Landing on Water?) and early 90s for Brooce (Human Touch / Lucky Town). I think among dedicated fans those periods are accepted as a lull before a return to form.

early Springsteen is closer to Dylan than Neil Young ever was

neil young is better than dylan too imo

neil takes this by a mile, for me

anyone gonna defend Landing on Water?

I actually reviewed that stinker for the Voice when it came out! (Only Neil album I've ever been paid to write about, I think.) And no, didn't defend it.

I don't really know who regards Harvest as best, or how they rank any other of Neil's albums for that matter, but personally it's Tonights the Night, On the Beach, After the Gold Rush, Rust Never Sleeps, and maybe even Zuma ranking over Harvest (which rulz).

Morbs you should definitely stop resisting, it's worth it. I think we're all old enough here to drop our dumb teenage hangups, aren't we?

ha, ilm was built on those hangups

'cept I really don't like much of his music, all that aside.

like, dude, that's not a Jersey accent.

it's an American accent.

Trans, comes a time, time fades away, weld, freedom, and absolutely Zuma, are also much better than Harvest, imo.
i think Joni(circa. Blue) & Neil could be called visionary, a term fit for Bob (and mayhap Verlaine?).
on the top of the second tier i'd put Bruce and others such as Randy Newman

Landing on Water got some press recently: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/goingson/2009/01/art-life-but-re.html
HMMM. Yeah, this and Everybody's Rocking are probably the most worthless Neil Young records ... But there are a handful of good things on each.

I also have little use for Neil until Freedom!

yeah Alfred, it's an American Dust Bowl accent

Everybody's Rockin' is great.

I like it, too! But if someone said you have to get rid of one Neil Young record, that might be the one ...

no way. i'd much rather get rid of something like Life (boring), or even Old Ways (a mess0 before i'd even consider letting go of ER.

cool, new sn.

"hippie dream" off landing on water is a great song

bruce's drunk ramblings on "street hassle" are : ) :) : )

i NEVER KNEW that was bruce. no way.

who else could it have been?

neil young's closer to dylan than springsteen

― steve goldberg variations (omar little)

^^^RONG

quality-wise

mellencamp >> springsteen fwiw

not a springsteen fan but that's cold

nah, it's just true. (and i basically like springsteen.)

should be a poll

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can't stand young's voice, it's like the ugliest wheeziest sound i've ever heard come out of anyone. ruins otherwise decent records for me.

i like the first few springsteen albums well enough, not so much his later woody guthrie/pete seeger impressions.

I'm not sure who Springsteen thinks he's imitating in these later records. Possibly himself.

there are a couple songs on the new one where he actually sounds a lot like (later, has-been period) mellencamp!

he sounds like martin zellar of the gear daddies now

neil neil neil neil neil

I love Neil Young to tiny bits and pieces. I've tried to get into Springsteen several times, always resulting in an epic fail. I don't doubt that they are good songs/lyrics in there. I guess I find it irritating that people hold up the E Street Band as an overwhelming force of nature, when I find them to be so fucking boring. Then again, I'm sure many people say the same thing about Crazy Horse. The only Springsteen albums I can really stand to listen to are stripped down, Nebraska and the like. But without some of the worst saxophone solos of all time to distract, the stripped down records only put more emphasis on his voice, which I personally can't stand. Again, if you don't like Neil's voice, you could make the same argument there.

Reduced it to: Neil's just more interesting than Bruce. So Neil.

^^this is a pretty good summary. i read - and for the most part enjoyed - Shakey. don't think i'd even crack a bruce bio at this point.

i will say both these dudes have some hardcore enthusiastic fan base action that i really couldn't see myself ever being a part of

Neil is weirder. Neil wins.

Like, where is Bruce's vocoder-n-synths-ode to his mentally disabled son, or his live album composed entirely of feedback, or his soppy-string-laden ode to Carrie Snodgrass, or his movie with Devo or or or...

I can hear Neil Young playing a bitchin' version of "Cover Me."

neil > springsteen's crotch > springsteen.

actually, after pissing myself laughing at seeing springsteen's crotch for the millionth time, i say...

springsteen's crotch > neil > bruce forsyth > bruce springsteen.

MORE BARN

Both are fine writers. Neither is a slouch as a proponent of the use of the guitar. Agree on Young's voice being hard to take in large doses. Agree on Bruce's band being mostly boring.

(No, Bruce, you do not need two keyboard players or four guitarists at any given time, and you only need a saxophone every six or eight songs, at most. And if you're GOING to have three people singing at once, it adds nothing to have them all clustered around one microphone. Get one quartet pls.)

And yet I vote Bruce, because he can sometimes leave his band behind or render them irrelevant, whereas Neil's voice is always with him.

I feel like I'm mostly siding with (and voted for) Springsteen because NY is more ILM-friendly...here's my counterarguments.

Archives material > Tracks material (usually)
Crazy Horse >>> E-Street Band
Built to Spill > Arcade Fire
slightly better melodist

fuzzy epic guitar solos >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stiff conan o'brien house band horns

wtf at all the abuse directed at the E Street Band?! With the exception of Tunnel of Love, for which he still showed considerable melodic shrewdness, Springsteen's never more boring than when he wants to Get Serious and play solo. The E Streeter's in-the-pocket performances on The River and Born in the USA are what make those albums terrific.

"I'm from NJ and it's impossible to overstate his popularity here. "

Not in my corner of NJ

Built to Spill > Arcade Fire

Thin Lizzy > Dinosaur Jr

(even the handful of Lizzy songs that are clearly Springsteen-influenced)

also

John Cougar (or Iron City Houserockers) (or Hold Steady) (or Boomtown Rats' "Rat Trap" and "Joey's On The Street Again") > Built To Spill

sonic youth deserves some >s

neil. the string of records from everybody knows this is nowhere - rust never sleeps is as good as it gets

ah bullshit chuck i bought a goddamn iron city houserockers album because of your book and that beaver brown shit can't fuck with built to spill

I guess what we really are debating is Neil Young 1968-1979 vs. Bruce Springsteen 1973-1987, since outside that range both have been pretty hit or miss. Of course, Neil Young's post-prime records like "Freedom" and "Ragged Glory" are miles better than anything Springsteen's done post "Tunnel of Love." However, with the exception of "Greendale," I think Springsteen's made a better case for his post-prime output live than Young has. I mean, I can tell you flat out which one is more likely to disappoint you in concert these days. Young's got his monolithic, iconic epics to lean on, but Springsteen plays even his lamest new stuff like it's on par with his best material. Also, when Springsteen last toured solo, he aired something like 150 different songs over the course of the trek. Young, on the other hand, tends to stick to the same setlist, give or take a song or two, which given the quantity and diversity of his output sort of implies what the artist himself thinks of the 30 or so albums in his canon that no one else cares about, either.

Anyway, tough call. Young's weirdness and devil may care attitude may win out in the end, but Springsteen at his best moves mountains.

I Voted For Neil

bought a goddamn iron city houserockers album because of your book

Based on the one stray mention where I didn't even say they were any good? Wow. (But ha, I actually like John Cafferty's Tough All Over, too.)

Neil Young at his laziest has inspired more interesting psych fuzz rock blues than Springsteen.

Voted Young.

Neil Young is just about as good as it gets.

"hippie dream" off landing on water is a great song

hell yeah, i love most of landing on water. love the ridiculous drums. i would love to be in a band that had that sound.

what it all comes down to: neil has the TUNES; my hat's off to the workmanship of the e-street band, but bruce's songs mostly sound just super readymade or something to me. and neil's lyrical subject matter gets wayy more dark.. so again.. NEIL!

Neil Young was great up to and including "Harvest", but this still has to be The Boss. "Born In The USA" has had to take way too much shit for the past 20+ years. It is still a brilliant rock album.

And, Alfred OTM about E-Street Band!

Never got Springsteen and probably never will. Neil wins on every possible level.

There was a pretty good Neil Young documentary on BBC4 the other night. It's still on BBC iPlayer here until 8th February.

Yes, been on before. Weirdest thing is that his voice is different in the two main interviews in the films - kind of low and menacing in one and high and boyish in the other.

Also LOL early Buffalo Springfield clip where he's all Canadian: "We've been together aboot 6 months..."

The voice, and my extreme dislike of "Heart of Gold" kept me away from Neil for ages. But as much as I like Nebraska and "I'm On Fire," it's gotta be Neil.

They're opposites, in a way. Neil seems to be all intuitive, especially as a lyricist, and Springsteen is the honer and the whittler. Any Neil Young song, even "Zero to 60" and "Ordinary People" sounds like it was written in the time it took to play it the first time, whereas any Springsteen song seems written and rewritten and perfected, even the Nebraska songs. Hard vote.

They're opposites, in a way. Neil seems to be all intuitive

Image-wise Young seems as self-conscious as Bowie. Plus, he's in love with concept albums and grand multi-media projects.

Dylan and Cohen are similar in terms of intuition vs. reworking:

"Dylan and I were having coffee in Paris a few years ago. He was doing Hallelujah in concert and asked me how long it took to write. I said, 'Oh, the best part of two years.' He said, 'Two years?' Kinda shocked. And then we started talking about a song of his called I And I. I said, 'How long did you take to write that?' He said, 'Oh, best part of 15 minutes.' I almost fell off my chair. And the thing is I lied. Actually, it took me closer to five years. Of course he lied, too. It probably took him 10 minutes."

They're opposites, in a way. Neil seems to be all intuitive

Image-wise Young seems as self-conscious as Bowie. Plus, he's in love with concept albums and grand multi-media projects.

― QuantumNoise, Tuesday, February 3, 2009 4:40 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah but the way neil seems to operate on a really strange gut level, like say doing that wacked out greendale movie...whereas springsteen definitely engages in very explicit and canny image making, his whole career really....like he's definitely sought out icon status, whereas neil sort of achieved it through his own weird stubborness

Maybe Neil should always win.

this.

By the way, in the documentary, the clip of Neil jamming with Devo is awesome!

x-post

I don't know. I thought that, too. But after reading Shakey and the collection of Rolling Stone articles, the dude obviously thinks a lot about his art. I think the fact that he often plays ragged roots rock makes people think otherwise becuase roots rock isn't suppose to be an intellectual exercise or something. Sure, his thought process doesn't always make sense, but I don't think he works solely according to intuition.

I saw the Greendale tour, and it was really quite involved and thought out. It's not the product of off-the-cuff, gut level artistry.

it is in the sense that its a totally goofy, uncommercial idea

but yeah he put a lot of thought into it

xpost

oh yeah i agree, i don't think anyone could make that many great albums like "by mistake" or without a lot of thought...i guess i meant more in the directions he takes, like when he gets a weird or stupid idea in his head, dammit he is gonna drive that thing right into the ditch...whereas springsteen seems more conscious of his "responsibility" (in a way) to his image and his audience's expectations....and like during say the born in the USA era, he pretty clearly decided to use the right iconography and moves to make himself an arena sized star....

which i guess is a long way to say that maybe springsteen seems more calculated, neil seems more strange or obsessive....which is not to say that both of them don't put a ton of very conscious effort and thought into what they do.

when he gets a weird or stupid idea in his head, dammit he is gonna drive that thing right into the ditch

^^^says it all, really

and that's kinda why I love the dude.

Where does Lou Reed fit into all of this?

neil did write 'lets roll' though

Yeah, he did! Totally weird, muddled, slightly dumb-ass song that Neil did not properly think through. Bruce would've never written something like that. Or if he did, he would've discarded it immediately and moved onto something faux-uplifting like "The Rising".

xpost

but even "let's roll" sort of defines neil to me, like he doesn't check himself in terms of "is this the right message?" he just reacts to something and does it, puts it out there

(or what tyler said)

haha you will NEVER win with us neil stans because we will always claim everything shitty he does just adds to his fascinating genius!

Ha, well, The Rising has plenty of totally weird, muddled, slightly dumb-ass songs about 9-11, but not as charming.

yeah, matt, that is true ... it's like that poll a few weeks ago asking when Dylan was the biggest asshole in "Don't Look Back" ... THEY ALL HAD IT COMING.

Love Bruce for his anthems & his American Gothic acoustic records alike, but Neil's various dalliances with the avant garde & career-long contribution to the art of manipulated amplifier feedback put him over the edge for me. Neil.

Whoever said upthread that 1986's "Hippie Dream" is a good song got it right.

By the way, in the documentary, the clip of Neil jamming with Devo is awesome!

The entirety of Human Highway (what I'm guess you are talking about here) is just bonkers. Bruce doesn't have anything like that going for him.

has Neil ever written a song for Donna Summer?

...that's one point for Bruce.

uh no

that's one point against Bruce

what would Dave Marsh say?

Dave Marsh would bludgeon Mr Que with a copy of "Protection."

The entirety of Human Highway (what I'm guess you are talking about here) is just bonkers

Is it Human Highway? It's footage of Neil+Devo playing an early version of "Hey Hey My My" in a studio, Neil going apeshit on guitar, M. Mothersbaugh, sitting in a playpen with a rubber mask on, torturing a coupla synths, Devo guys with rubber wigs on playing all jerky/spazzy

yeah love hippie dream.

my other two fav deep cuts: "opera star" and "shots"

Dave Marsh would say "Me love u Brooce."

Human Highway is next level

Maybe there should be a Neil Young movies poll ... I finally saw "Journey Through the Past" for the first time last year ... It is prettay, prettay bad. Nothing as good as the Devo sequence from "Human Highway." Some hippie/Crosby-style lols in there, but the live footage isn't terribly great. And you have to sit through a whole buncha crap to get to it.

I like this a lot

vs

huh. didn't know that one preceded "She Works Hart for the Money." did it get any airplay back then (i don't recall ever hearing it on the radio)?

xp

It was never a single. You can hear Bruce shouting in the last third, and that's him on lead guitar, of course.

"lotta love" is way smoother and better

he pretty clearly decided to use the right iconography and moves to make himself an arena sized star

Hate to be the one to point out the obvious but: there's a lot more to it than deciding, else more people would do it, amirite?

lotta love is like ultimate 70s am radio mom rock. love it.

i haven't voted, fwiw. refuse to choose!

It's footage of Neil+Devo playing an early version of "Hey Hey My My" in a studio, Neil going apeshit on guitar, M. Mothersbaugh, sitting in a playpen with a rubber mask on, torturing a coupla synths, Devo guys with rubber wigs on playing all jerky/spazzy
Yes, this is at the end of the "dream sequence" of Human Highway, right before the cast performance of "It Takes a Worried Man."

> i haven't voted, fwiw. refuse to choose!

― (a mess0 (Ioannis), Tuesday, February 3, 2009 12:14 PM (56 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Take him in the back boys, and don't be shy with the battery.

damn can't find that neil/devo clip on youtube. it has all of human highway but i don't wanna wade through it.

Yeah I looked for it, too.

Neil, for the greater body of work, but neither one has been very interesting to me in the last 25+ years.

saw it once; probably the only video clip ever to make me feel nauseous--kinda like an outtake from Brazil in a way. fucking Neil.

I don't have the video, but if someone wants the mp3 of Neil Devo, hit me up on the email ...

I don't have the video either, but I know where the original film canisters are if anyone wants to come over and hook up a projector lolz

x-post The original Bruce/E Street "Protection" demo is awesome.

Lost in the Flood vs. After the Gold Rush
Spirit in the Night vs. Cowgirl in the Sand
Growin' Up vs. Old Man
It's Hard to be a Saint in the City vs. Needle and the Damage Done
Rosalita vs. A Man Needs a Maid
10th Avenue Freezeout vs. For the Turnstiles
Born to Run vs Tonight's the Night
Thunder Road vs. Tired Eyes
Backstreets vs. C'mon Baby Let's Go Downtown
Darkness on the Edge of Town vs. Cortez the Killer
Candy's Room vs. Barstool Blues
Prove It All Night vs. Like a Hurricane
Adam Raised a Cain vs. Comes a Time
The River vs. Thrasher
Hungry Heart vs. Pocahontas
Point Blank vs. Powderfinger
Fade Away vs. My My Hey Hey
Stolen Car vs. Hey Hey My My
Johnny 99 vs. Surfer Joe and Moe the Sleaze
Atlantic City vs. Sample and Hold
Reason to Believe vs. Computer Age
I'm on Fire vs. When Your Lonely Heart Breaks
Born in the USA vs. Rockin' in the Free World
57 Channels and Nothin' On vs. Piece of Crap

Streets of Philadelphia, Brilliant Disguise, Bobby Jean, Tunnel of Love, One Step Up, American Skin, (Darkness era boots), Blinded by the Light, Pink Cadillac,

vs. Fuckin' Up, Harvest Moon, From Hank to Hendrix, Sugar Mountain, (Buffalo Springfield), (CSN&Y), Live Rust, Down by the River,

i ran out of gas, Cadillac Ranch vs. Long May She Run.

I heard "Lotta Love" yesterday at Subway and took a bath in the sax part.

Did not know (until just now) that Nicolette Larson was married to Russ Kunkel.

Neil all the way. Fuck Bruce Springsteen. The deeper I delve into Springsteen the more I despise.
The opposite with Neil.

Lost in the Flood vs. After the Gold Rush
Spirit in the Night vs. Cowgirl in the Sand
Growin' Up vs. Old Man
It's Hard to be a Saint in the City vs. Needle and the Damage Done - don't really like either
Rosalita vs. A Man Needs a Maid
10th Avenue Freezeout vs. For the Turnstiles
Born to Run vs Tonight's the Night
Thunder Road vs. Tired Eyes
Backstreets vs. C'mon Baby Let's Go Downtown
Darkness on the Edge of Town vs. Cortez the Killer
Candy's Room vs. Barstool Blues
Prove It All Night vs. Like a Hurricane
Adam Raised a Cain vs. Comes a Time
The River vs. Thrasher
Hungry Heart vs. Pocahontas
Point Blank vs. Powderfinger
Fade Away vs. My My Hey Hey
Stolen Car vs. Hey Hey My My
Johnny 99 vs. Surfer Joe and Moe the Sleaze
Atlantic City vs. Sample and Hold
Reason to Believe vs. Computer Age
I'm on Fire vs. When Your Lonely Heart Breaks
Born in the USA vs. Rockin' in the Free World
57 Channels and Nothin' On vs. Piece of Crap

Streets of Philadelphia, Brilliant Disguise, Bobby Jean, Tunnel of Love, One Step Up, American Skin, (Darkness era boots), Blinded by the Light, Pink Cadillac

vs. Fuckin' Up, Harvest Moon, From Hank to Hendrix, Sugar Mountain, (Buffalo Springfield), (CSN&Y), Live Rust, Down by the River,

Cadillac Ranch vs. Long May She Run

wait, long may you run

that list has the scary feel of an anonymous letter composed of words cut out of a newspaper.

http://moo-ahh.com/NeilYoungScottish/bobbruceneil.bmp

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__5-YdjLDaow/SO4qjPCV04I/AAAAAAAAAhw/BOZxrxdayt4/s400/220px-Crazy_horse_w_neil_young.jpg

vs.
http://productshopnyc.com/htdocs/e_street_band_1.jpg

who would you rather kick it with? i imagine Crazy Horse would have the better weed ...

yeah but then you'd have to hang out with the creepy serial killer dude in the background

lol

hehehe

http://pro.corbis.com/images/DZ002603.jpg?size=67&uid=%7BFBC76506-D611-4A67-A224-931B3966A597%7D

vs.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/Nettidude/EStreetBand3.jpg

Bruce definitely looks cooler.

haha waht

yeah i dunno about that ...!

I really hate long hair, so Bruce wins in the Battle of the Photos. For now.

His earrings in the mid nineties = DUD

bruce before muscles = jon stewart

i think Neil's dog wins the battle of the photos ...

always bet on a dog with sunglasses

^^^ isn't that a Jimmy Buffet album

Roy Bittan or whoever baldy Mcbeardo is in the E Street band automatically reduces coolness quotient by %75 percent

and I say this as a bald man with a beard

hahaha

i think that's Federici? (RIP, Keyboard Bro)... but yeah, he's def. the narc of the group.

yeah i was gonna say they should have waited to take that photo until they had walked well past the two dudes on the right

we could go more recent here, too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/images/2008/03/17/110308_neil_young_04_350x350.jpg

vs.
http://www.brooklynvegan.com/img/music2/brucesuperbowl.jpg

Neil looks like like Miami Steve in that last vs set.

another TS - wives who shouldn't be on stage:
Pegi Young vs. Patti Scialfa

http://www.breadandroses.org/images/FA05_NeilPegiYoung250x373.gif

vs.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2007/10/02/amd_springsteen_patti.jpg

Pegi's backing vocals have never bothered me fwiw

bruce bruce bruce bruce bruce

also bruce

if this were based on early career only it would be neil but it ain't so it's bruce

I've definitely logged more hours listening to NY, and I've spent more time culling through his questionable output. NY's dogs are way easier to hang with than Bruce's dogs, I think.
I'm pretty quick to point out what a genius NY is on the guitar, and I definitely sway towards his over-all more abstract approach to both guitar and lyric writing.
But oddly enough, Bruce has the ability to hit me on the transcendental level. Nowhere near as often as NY does, but in a way that really seems to affect me emotionally. Perhaps Bruce has the ability to be more holistic in his ability to balance lyric, arrangement, and mood, whereas NY tends to get one or two of three right in his best songs.
So those chiiling moments I've had listening to "drive all night" or "I'm on fire" seem to affect me in a huge way that "cortez" or "no more" strive too , but don't quite hit the mark.

Apologize for the raggedy post 'n typos - I'm on an iPhone, drinking in a bar, getting distracted by a table of etymologists talkin about wasps with tusks.

I'm perfectly prepared to accept Tunnel of Love as his On the Beach.

I went to two Neil Young gigs last week. So it's Neil for me!

NY's dogs are way easier to hang with than Bruce's dogs, I think.

Because of the sunglasses, obv.

After the career/aesthetic talk upthread I was thinking this could also be seen as Jon Landau vs. Elliot Roberts.

I've definitely logged more hours listening to NY, and I've spent more time culling through his questionable output. NY's dogs are way easier to hang with than Bruce's dogs, I think.
I'm pretty quick to point out what a genius NY is on the guitar, and I definitely sway towards his over-all more abstract approach to both guitar and lyric writing.
But oddly enough, Bruce has the ability to hit me on the transcendental level. Nowhere near as often as NY does, but in a way that really seems to affect me emotionally. Perhaps Bruce has the ability to be more holistic in his ability to balance lyric, arrangement, and mood, whereas NY tends to get one or two of three right in his best songs.
So those chiiling moments I've had listening to "drive all night" or "I'm on fire" seem to affect me in a huge way that "cortez" or "no more" strive too , but don't quite hit the mark.

― Brooker Buckingham, Tuesday, February 3, 2009 7:57 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^ good post, well said

yeah, nice post -- but I find that when I'm listening to Bruce I'm more appreciative of his craft and the band's pleasant professionalism, than I am really struck emotionally by the songs. That's generalizing things, but with Neil I'm rarely focusing in on technical things. His songs seem to come from a deeper, more subconscious place, which is a little more attractive to me. Try as he might, I don't think Bruce could ever write something as elemental as "Helpless" ....

come on i like bruce as much as anyone but lets be real here

oh, fuck it! Brooce, if only for "Adam Raised a Cain."

I don't know anyone who grew up on the west coast who gives a shit about Brooce

right here.

i grew up on the west coast! and i sorta give a shit about him. but not two shits.

this is really like Superman vs. Batman, when you get right down to it.

Bruce being Superman, Neil being Batman.

With Clarence Clemmons playing the part of Jimmy Olsen and David Crosby as Robin.

i just thought of "tired eyes" and was glad i voted for neil.

TS: "Tired Eyes" vs "Sad Eyes"

I think Crosby would be better as the Penguin.

Or, the Walrus.

everything springsteen does is very obvious and obviously worked out. you see what he's getting at and how he intends to get there. maybe it's a kind of craftsmanship fetish, a desire to be direct, unpretentious and "natural". whatever the motive, you can see every nail, cut and join in his work. i don't mean it as a criticism, though, more just a clumsy restatement of iatee's point about his "never hiding the ball" (OTM).

neil's a little different in that he seems to be reaching through the words and sounds he creates to some kind of transcendence, in a manner that julian cope would call shamanic. it's not that he's some kind of idiot savant, or that he doesn't have clear (sometimes embarassingly clear) artistic intentions, just that his best work seems less the direct product of deliberate, meticulous craft than of something transmitted around the edges of his craft, ecstatically, perhaps "accidentally".

which is obvious, i guess, and boils down to springsteen = realistic portraitist; young = romantic expressionist. anyway, it's hard for me to pick one over the other, cuz they both do what they do so well, and because neither really appeals to me. neil, i guess, for the crazy horse guitar damage.

I'm on an iPhone, drinking in a bar, getting distracted by a table of etymologists talkin about wasps with tusks.

ts: wasps with tusks vs. elephants with wings

^great post.

yeah there's a certain magic with neil that sort of blows me away, like lyrics and the music matches up in particular songs. like take this little descending pre-bridge part to "on the way home" off of the massey hall disc:

"Now I won't be back til later on
If I do come back at all"

it's over a pretty standard descending chord change thing, you've heard a million times...and ostensibly the lyrics are basically meaningless, but something in the performance and his voice and his guitar playing makes it seem like super poignant and sad to me.

i couldn't really explain it at all. whereas i could tell you exactly why i like all my favorite springsteen songs in a real "rock critic" kind of way....

(oops the great post was to contenderizer's long one, no offense to wasps w/tusks)

contenderized otm for 1st two paragraphs

bruce wants to be a star so so bad, he always has

neil became a star in spite of himself

I'm from NJ and I have never ever understood the appeal of bruce

when I was 9 years old I saw neil young perform "hey hey my my" solo on a daytime talk show and it was like brokedown magic

I've definitely logged more hours listening to NY, and I've spent more time culling through his questionable output. NY's dogs are way easier to hang with than Bruce's dogs, I think.
I'm pretty quick to point out what a genius NY is on the guitar, and I definitely sway towards his over-all more abstract approach to both guitar and lyric writing.
But oddly enough, Bruce has the ability to hit me on the transcendental level. Nowhere near as often as NY does, but in a way that really seems to affect me emotionally. Perhaps Bruce has the ability to be more holistic in his ability to balance lyric, arrangement, and mood, whereas NY tends to get one or two of three right in his best songs.
So those chiiling moments I've had listening to "drive all night" or "I'm on fire" seem to affect me in a huge way that "cortez" or "no more" strive too , but don't quite hit the mark.

― Brooker Buckingham, Tuesday, February 3, 2009 7:57 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^ good post, well said

― n00bian princess (some dude), Wednesday, 4 February 2009

It is a good post, but I disagree, slightly.

I think the distinction here is that the "gut" level that Bruce hits listeners with--like the build of "Thunder Road," the scorched Earth feel of "I'm On Fire," or the desolate pathos of "Atlantic City"--are impossible for Neil Young to ever achieve, primarily because Young and Springsteen are just so goddamn different from one another. But there is still something unmistakably similar in their subject matter, extensive output, solid backing bands, etc. Personally, I think this all originates with Bob Dylan.

Both Young and Springsteen are very audibly influenced by Dylan, but what they are influenced by are, to my ears, completely different. Springsteen has been on record thousands of times professing his love for "Like a Rolling Stone" and that feeling, the very Dylan '65 vibe of charging forward against resistance and staking your own ground, heavily informs all his work. Young, on the other hand, feels way more charged by Dylan's folk work on The Times They Are A-Changin', and certain stylistic elements of Bringing It All Back Home and Blonde on Blonde. In other words, while Springsteen's sound stems from Dylan at his most galvanizing and colorful, Young goes for Dylan at his most desolate and weird. Both are lyrical and theatrical, but the styles of prose and theater are completely different.

Basically, while Neil Young has never written anything quite as...portentous as "I'm On Fire," he hasn't really done anything quite as touching as "After the Gold Rush," has he? And while Bruce can get pissed off, he never really gets as grizzled--solidly mixes piss and blood and vinegar--at anywhere near the level that Young did on Time Fades Away or Tonight's the Night. The reason is that at heart Bruce really wants to connect to people in a way that Neil Young just doesn't really give a shit enough to care about. And so while Bruce is a dynamite performer and a brilliant entertainer, Young is way more inclined to let his guard down and appear vulnerable, so that songs like "After the Gold Rush" or the second half of On the Beach feel way more personal in a Dylan style than Bruce's ever have or will. Couple that with Young's totally original guitar playing and the sheer number of better albums and songs, the competition begins to dwindle.

Bruce is booze and Young is weed.

*Bruce* hasn't written anything as touching as "After the Gold Rush."

I don't know anyone who grew up on the west coast who gives a shit about Brooce

I'm hella West Coast - I have never seen New Jersey in my life. And the biggest Bruce Springsteen fan I've ever known - super obsessive follow-Bruce around Europe, owns hundreds of bootlegs - is an Irish friend of mine who's never been to the states. In a way I think Bruce's fanbase is actually probably more diverse - I don't know very many young people or very many females who are super into NY.

Also - Neil Young's West Coastism is almost as strong as Bruce's East Coastism!

Asbury Park vs. Santa Cruz

bruce is a well-crafted short story about people drinking booze, clearly though not overly influenced by raymond carver and given positive feedback by workshop participants including at least one ploughshares contributor.

young is weed.

In a way I think Bruce's fanbase is actually probably more diverse - I don't know very many young people or very many females who are super into NY.

yeah but isn't this just a function of how huge bruce got in the 80s? like neil is def a popular artist but was never on that madonna/michael jackson level that bruce was when born in the usa came out.

I don't really get why coastal-ism is relevant to understanding these guys, but I'm from the south and am affected by a different regional rivalry

I voted for Neil, but I love both like crazy. One thing that occurs to me is that when Neil's being preachy, it's so easy to ignore it because wtf is he going on about, something about mother nature in the 1970s, or mother earth, or welfare mothers or hippie dreams or crime in the city or pieces of crap. I get the vibe and can ignore the politics. Whereas with Bruce it's hard for me to appreciate the craft of what he's done without thinking about the message that the music (words + sounds) represents. So while Bruce gives me a rush of recognizing common plights, like a top-notch older brother, Neil doesn't offer any specific guidance. So he's more right for me for more seasons.

otm re: politics/preachiness ... with Bruce it's like, "Yeah, yeah, I KNOW, Bruce!" And with Neil it's like "Ummmm ... what?"

most of bruce's music isn't aging very well imo

yeah but isn't this just a function of how huge bruce got in the 80s? like neil is def a popular artist but was never on that madonna/michael jackson level that bruce was when born in the usa came out.

yeah but this is a chicken/egg situation. he got huge because he wrote songs that young girls also liked to listen to, so he has young girls who like him.

I know lots of older hippie chick types who adore Neil because he was giant in the 70s

whereas Bruce's young chick appeal didn't really hit til the 80s (lolz Dancin in the Dark)

i've known way more girls into NY (mostly of the arty/indie/hippie variety) than girls into bruce. observer effect, granted, but i'm still surprised by the idea bruce's appeal is so much less limited by gender.

as noted above, i'd think drug hoovering would be a much better indicator/limiter than XXs vs XYs.

both of these guys are so huge that it's silly to stereotype their fanbase, was more my point. but - neil's is maybe a tiny bit more skewed.

dylan is the tigres-euphrates that these guys sprang from

I've heard both of them publicly admit that they're shallow imitations of the master

unfortunately bruce not only wanted to be dylan, but also rock n roll's gym teacher

IMHO the Boss wanted to be Dion just as much as he did Dylan

Needless to say, this is why I like the guy. I from the East Coast. He's from the East Coast. And we both dig more doo wop and Broadway schmaltz than your average post-folk revivalist Californian.

YES

bruce = dylan + broadway

I do like the moody bruce stuff... love nebraska, love "i'm on fire", and his version of suicide's "dream baby dream" is fanfuckingtastic

but his showtunes stuff like "born to run" and "rosalita" is like nails on a blackboard to me

Then again, you could even say Suicide had a very twisted NYC Broadway vibe.

(Of course, that's me being half-silly, half-serious.)

"Dream Baby Dream" is very Tin Pan Alley, very girl group a la Ruby and the Romantics.

a quality highlighted by springsteen in the cover, to the extent that the song becomes actively horrible (odd, cuz i LOVE very girl group, very tin pan alley)

yeah, if suicide were on broadway they'd be tweaking on speed in the alley behind the ambassador

cue neil young's version of "On Broadway" ...

Neil does have a B'way vibe in terms of stage props and rock opera type stuff. It's just that the music doesn't always reflect this. Even the touring version of Tonight's the Night was a kind of musical role playing event (sorry for the poor description).

neil is more cheap-o community theater than broadway

bruce is a well-crafted short story about people drinking booze, clearly though not overly influenced by raymond carver and given positive feedback by workshop participants including at least one ploughshares contributor.

young is weed.

- contenderizer

This is becoming a highly awesome thread.

And if his Storytellers is anything to go by, Bruce wanted to be Dylan + Smokey Robinson.

x-post

I bet he spent a pretty penny on all that over-sized gear and faux-jawa robes!!!

well, yeah, but it still looked cheap!

Totally

suicide (and a lot of other punk bands) were influenced by doo wop and brill bldg pop, but that was 50s greaser ethos, not broadway show tunes.

I remember max weinberg talking about auditioning for bruce, and he made a clear connection between his broadway background and him clicking w/ bruce. max thought he got the job because he understood the mechanics of musical dramatics - something like hitting the snare when bruce would jump in the air or something like that.

Bruce hasn't written anything as touching as "After the Gold Rush.

Hmm, I guess that depends on how one defines "touching." Certainly there are tons of Bruce songs I'd consider *moving*. "Independence Day," "The River," "Brilliant Disguise," "Racing in the Streets," "Stolen Car" - lots of songs like these that move me more than any Neil Young songs (which is not intended as a slight on Neil, but all the same I suppose another notch on Bruce's post).

Anyway, I'm not sure Bruce has written any lyrics as oddball as "After the Gold Rush," either, lyrics that have always to me undermined the emotions of that song. Getting high? Mother Nature? Spaceships? Knights 'n' queens imagery? I love "After the Gold Rush" with all my heart, but what a weirdo hippie.

And while Bruce can get pissed off, he never really gets as grizzled--solidly mixes piss and blood and vinegar--at anywhere near the level that Young did on Time Fades Away or Tonight's the Night.

Not on "Adam Raised a Cain?" Or "Murder Inc."? If anything, Neil's grizzled anger is far more narcissistic than Bruce's. It's often addressed to his own insular world, and when Neil does look outward he tends to get strident, as he does with "Southern Man" and "Rockin' in the Free World." The latter of which is nigh unimpeachable. Thus the paradox.

P.S. That's hunks of the E Street Band on the Meatloaf album, plus "Total Eclipse of the Heart," so blame some of the Broadway cheese on them.

Max Weinberg played for Air Supply

bruce should have really been the frontman for a talk show band like his bro max

Production is where a lot of that 'piss and blood' is. On a song for song basis, Darkness is just as grizzled as TtN.

Listen to "Prove It All Night" here:http://addictedtovinyl.com/blog/2008/09/21/good-listening-bruce-springsteen-passaic-night-9-19-78/

Make your choice.

suicide (and a lot of other punk bands) were influenced by doo wop and brill bldg pop, but that was 50s greaser ethos, not broadway show tunes.

That's why I think Dion is pivotal in Bruce's make up. Dion kind of dissolved the barrier between rock and roll, doo wop, Brill Building pop, teen idol stuff and B'way. He was Bobby Darin with a leather jacket, basically.

Plus, there's the Copa/supper club angle, which Dion touched on.

bruce should have really been the frontman for a talk show band like his bro max

― omar

no, bruce should have been exactly what he was & is: a celebrity embodiment of the "american populist" (guthrie/seeger/dylan folksinger model). do agree that he should have some kind of talk show, like oprah, but with more beard hair

Except the guy is kind of a socially retarded when he's not playing music.

yeah if he actually had to open his mouth to talk it would be a train wreck, best to leave it to frontman for the house band

my imaginary nonmusical bruce is more folksy and given to jovial advice-giving

what would be the funnier SNL talk show skit

good morning! with bob dylan
good morning! with neil young
good morning! with bruce springsteen

http://www.thisdayinrock.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/bruce_springsteen_and_band.jpg

ugh, I hate this shit.

funniest: Bob for sure

whenever I hear bruce talk I think, get over it man, you're from FREEHOLD

funniest: Bob for sure

for realz

Bruce looks like he's pinchin a loaf in that picture

Neil's 80s albums vs Bob's

bruce would be funny if somebody *really* did bruce and not some lame aping of his public persona

a bob dylan talkshow would pretty much be the prince show snl skit minus the beyonce and the purple.

Certainly there are tons of Bruce songs I'd consider *moving*. "Independence Day," "The River," "Brilliant Disguise," "Racing in the Streets," "Stolen Car"
For me, I find many of his rockers to be even more "moving." "Darlington County" has me rooting for those two lovable losers — with all the bravado that youth brings — right up until that jarring (yet funny) last line.
Without a trace of self-pity, "I'm Going Down" sums up a disintegrating relationship better than most songs that have four times as many words. It just slays me.
Better yet, they simply SOUND great.

i like bruce's first drummer way more than max weinberg fwiw

"downbound train" off born in the usa is a great song

"Bruce"

sums up a disintegrating relationship better than most songs

cf. "One Step Up"

neil young's closer to dylan than springsteen and springsteen is closer to g.e. smith and the snl band than he is neil young

― steve goldberg variations (omar little), Monday, February 2, 2009 12:44 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

fuzzy epic guitar solos >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stiff conan o'brien house band horns

― steve goldberg variations (omar little), Monday, February 2, 2009 3:49 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

bruce should have really been the frontman for a talk show band like his bro max

― steve goldberg variations (omar little), Wednesday, February 4, 2009 2:09 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

congratulations, you've hit on your one talking point in every single way possible.

there are several more possible ways, and we have all the time in the world

i like bruce's first drummer way more than max weinberg fwiw
Vini Lopez was fired either because of his mercurial temper, or the fact that his drumming wasn't up to snuff. I always found his playing to be pretty sloppy, myself.

What hath Blossom & the Boss wrought?

i think the next song they did was "powderfinger" post and we can finally settle this.

bruce and neil are hueg fucking nerds.

i love em and all

live "Prove It All Night"

It's a strange non-ego move to totally bury his guitar hero leads on all of his studio albums and even with the production on officially released live performances.

is it some kind of "awe shucks" false modesty? Either one of these guys jamming a long solo with Nils Lofgren is classic, but it seems like Bruce wants to save it only for his most hardcore fans.

x-post- her graduation gown lies in rags at their feet.

bruce would be funny if somebody *really* did bruce and not some lame aping of his public persona

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Eh, shit:

congratulations, you've hit on your one talking point in every single way possible.

― n00bian princess (some dude)

this obviously bothers you

another TS - underlying themes:

Bruce = recession, unemployment - has there ever not been a shitty economy in Bruce's song universe? could this partially explain his 90s songwriting lull?

vs. Neil Young's long-term obsession with war.

(I have been having this debate in my head for like 8 years, so I have a lot of parallels saved up.)

The "Legends of Springsteen" with Andy Dick rules, especially the part when the Boss counts out 1-2-3-4, as if he' gonna rock so hard, yet all you hear is the piano.

"... if that ain't enough, he refills all the catsup bottles..."

x-post to Josh in Chicago

When I said, "has he?" I meant the question mark there. I couldn't think of any songs, so I was also reaching out to see if anyone could think of something I couldn't.

Anyways, maybe what I'm trying to get at here is what ultimately comes down to voice. Neil's high-register (and, personal preference, not shrill) voice adds a certain fragility to his quieter songs that Bruce never quite hits on Nebraska, mostly because his singing is so guttural. For the record, I would equate both albums as being just about on par with one another, but I also think that Bruce's range is a little limited when placed up against Young. Springsteen does what he does really, really well. But Neil Young achieves a kind of delicacy through his voice that Springsteen doesn't. In turn, that grants Young a certain narrative and tonal perspective that's lacking in Bruce's work (and not necessarily for the worse, just that we're squaring the two off here, so that comes into play).(Something to look into: one could argue that "Thrasher" is pretty much the template for most of the songs on Nebraska)

As for the second point, I wasn't saying that one's grizzled anger was more self-aggrandizing or narcissistic than the other--in many ways that's almost entirely up to the listener and their perspective. However, what you say about the E Street Band is precisely the reason why Bruce can never ostensibly appear as ornery or as rustic as Young. But I don't blame the E Street Band, I hold Bruce responsible. This is a conscious aesthetic choice on his and their part--the two are inextricable from one another.

And "Adam Raised a Cain" may be "angry," but its anger isn't nearly as convincing as Young yelling "Come On Baby Let's Go Downtown" like he's been up all night boozing his brains out. Bruce, even when he's grunting, sounds like he's fighting something off, but there's always a happy ending implied, a "we're gonna be alright" conclusion. In a Young narrative there never seems to be anything but a stormy finish: shit happens.

this obviously bothers you

― steve goldberg variations (omar little), Wednesday, February 4, 2009 2:59 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

eh, I prefer Bruce (but not by a huge margin), but as a zing it's more lazy/inaccurate than offensive to me. i mean, it's not like E Street were aping Carson's band in the '70s, TV house bands just eventually came around to a kind of anonymous horn section rock sound that resembled the Springsteen sound rather than vice versa. I can see that factoring into your dislike of Springsteen but harping on it over and over is like blaming the Clash for Green Day or something.

Bruce, even when he's grunting, sounds like he's fighting something off, but there's always a happy ending implied, ]a "we're gonna be alright" conclusion.

Sooooo not true.

springsteen should replace what's his face in leno's band when leno moves to 10/9 central xpost

maybe part of it is that bruce's universe is largely social and coherent - self is dependent on family, tribe, community, embedded relationships. therefore overriding concerns are immediate and small in scale: economic stress, situational ethics, etc.

neil's universe is more individual, isolated, personal, almost solopsistic. relationships exist, but one exists in relation to them, not IN them. therefore, concerns are more general, conceptual - war, death, evil, corporate wrongdoing, etc.

i dunno. probably bullshit, esp. as i haven't listened to much recent material by either.

this is being repeated over and over for my own lol benefit rather than actual harping fwiw

like 60% of the time the song's perspective is from hopeless naïvité
"we're gonna be alright" might be the lyric, but it's not the implication

that last post in reply to iatee's suggestion about the thematic divide

nah, nah, contenderizer, that's right on re: thematic divide

Bruce, even when he's grunting, sounds like he's fighting something off, but there's always a happy ending implied, ]a "we're gonna be alright" conclusion.

Sooooo not true.

Other than Tunnel of Love, I think it is true aesthetically. The vibe of a Neil Young and Bruce Springsteen concert seems to reflect this. I'm not saying Bruce can't be bilious, particularly on Born In the U.S.A., but in the music, I rarely, if ever, hear despair quite the way I do in Neil Young.

Leno's bands have always been more smooth jazz via Vegas than E Street bar band via Vegas, haven't they? anyway the Max Weinberg Seven doing cheesy muzak arrangments of Born To Run still reflects on his legacy less poorly than the Hold Steady and the Killers swagger jacking Bruce in the most incompetent ways possible.

yeah, contenderizer has definitely bullseyed the dart board in that second to last post.

i sorta love the max weinberg 7, they are more of a loveable throwback to like old school show bands of the 60s and stuff than like letterman or leno's lame-o studio hack vibe.

yeah those bands are really dreadful, for real. i can't get with bruce but he's incredible next to them. xxp

sort of agree with talrose. the characters in springsteen's songs may not survive the situations described, but the narrative voice is that of earned wisdom -- i.e., we survive the bad things that happen to us, the bad things, in fact, humanize and complete us, give us meaning and depth. so, there is an "it will be alright" quality to everything springsteen does. he embodies human dignity and nobility and continuance in the face of whatever.

neil, on the other hand, presents a much less reassuring vision of human resilience. his narrative voice often exists on the verge of annihilation, of implosion. he speaks to us not of what we might learn by going through it, but simply what it feels like to be consumed by the moment.

not that springsteen doesn't sometimes go for the same thing: i'm on fire

I'm sure it's had some bearing on their respective careers, but Bruce, unlike Neil, has never really been a drinker and supposedly avoided drugs, whereas Neil ... anyway, Neil had much more to be bitter and angry about! Then again, Bruce had buddies who were drafted and died, and Neil, for obvious reasons, did not.

Bruce had buddies who were drafted and died, and Neil, for obvious reasons, did not.

? what are these obvious reasons?

Um, he's Canadian?

Neil had much more to be bitter and angry about

I'm not buying this. Both these guys have been for a really long time extremely financially secure. When Neil had his "Lost Weekend" phase in the mid 70s he'd already struck gold several times.

google suggests neil young's song 'living with war' is about a friend of his who died in vietnam

or rather some songs from the album

Um, he's Canadian?

Neil came to the US in '66 (his bandmate Rick James was arrested for being AWOL from the army, which broke up the band). Neil had plenty of friends in the US at the time of the war.

Um, he's Canadian?
No excuse.

Not to be a dick, but who cares about autobiographical source material? If we're trying to argue that Springsteen's pain is less convincing than Young's because he rarely drinks and doesn't take drugs, then Tunnel of Love is all the more remarkable: an expensive solo record about a multimillionaire whose only comfort after all his success is that when you're alone you're alone.

Alfred mostly OTM here, I don't really care about "authenticity"

Bruce = recession, unemployment - has there ever not been a shitty economy in Bruce's song universe? could this partially explain his 90s songwriting lull?

^^ liking this thought.

The ones that talked about getting away in Born to Run, Rosalita, and Thunder Road just ended up somewhere else.

in reference to something said 10 or so posts ago.

^^^^ and we know for a fact that "Thunder Road" directly leads to "The Promise"

Bruce = recession, unemployment - has there ever not been a shitty economy in Bruce's song universe? could this partially explain his 90s songwriting lull?

I'll return to TOL, an anomaly in Springsteen's catalogue. "Spare Parts," "Ain't Got You," and "Tougher Than the Rest" are sonic cousins of genres and places he's recorded and visited before, but the darkest songs are sung from a position of encroached comfort; they sound like mid eighties yuppie America, which lends them their particular pain (i.e. "I shouldn't be feeling this shitty").

I'm not buying this. Both these guys have been for a really long time extremely financially secure. When Neil had his "Lost Weekend" phase in the mid 70s he'd already struck gold several times.

― Euler, Wednesday, February 4, 2009 3:25 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

I agree w/ others that the autobiographical angle is bullshit, but neil had a number of close friends & bandmates die at a young age plus 2 sons with cerebral palsy. I'm not sure "striking gold" takes the edge off that.

bruce, meanwhile, broke it off with his trophy wife

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2007/archive/covers/85/5_27_85_205x273.jpg

The ones that talked about getting away in Born to Run, Rosalita, and Thunder Road just
ended up somewhere else.

Also true of "Atlantic City" and "Hungry Heart," btw

Bruce = recession, unemployment - has there ever not been a shitty economy in Bruce's song universe? could this partially explain his 90s songwriting lull?

^^ liking this thought.

The poor and working class didn't go away. It's was just unhip to tell their story in the 90s. We all had to act as if America was one giant bag of cash.

http://storage.people.com/jpgs/19881010/19881010-750-0.jpg

Wily Sylvia Miles!

At least Bruce gave us Ghost of Tom Joad.

(x-post to myself)

x-post I wasn't talking about authenticity at all, Alfred. Just saying that drug and alcohol abuse is a major factor/subject of many of Neil's most powerful/harrowing songs, and not in Bruce's, and one reason why their respective creative high points are so different. Also, Bruce came from a real working class background, which has had a real bearing on his outlook. He was something of a social outcast, too. Neil was an outcast as well, but of a different fascinating sort. He found his scene. Springsteen, like losers everywhere, had to invent it.

OK, I can live with that.

The poor and working class didn't go away. It's was just unhip to tell their story in the 90s. We all had to act as if America was one giant bag of cash.

for sure. was thinking to add something like this with my original post. I meant more that Springsteen's POV was sorta out of place in that environment. like yeah, writing about Tom Joad makes a lot of sense (to the public) in the 70s, makes a lot of sense in 2009, but 1995?

I've never found the biographical angle on either of these guys worth thinking much about. I don't care what Bruce's background is, or Neil's. Their songs stand on their own. Dylan got this early on, hence all the bullshit he spread about his upbringing (I have this bootleg from a radio show in 1961 wherein Bob tells a credulous interviewer about his carnival days). To get his songs to stand on their own, he punctured the myth that it mattered where he'd come from.

yeah you could totally create lots of plausible fake bios for these guys and it wouldn't change much. I could totally see neil young as a spoiled rich kid, for example.

maybe that's just because tons of spoiled rich kids now spend tons of time trying to sound like neil young

Unlike Gram Parsons, a spoiled rich kid who spent all his time trying to sound like old country acts. Or Mick Jagger, a spoiled rich kid spending all his time trying to sound like old blues acts.

Dylan's that rare sui generis talent who came from such a genuinely uninteresting background he had to make it up! But read "Shakey" or any of the various Bruce bios and it's pretty amazing just how much the biographical angle plays out.

yeah but there's a difference between whether or not their biographies influenced their music (def did) and whether that should matter at all to the listener (which depends on how you listen to music)

this interview w/ young always stuck with me. some interesting explanations of his craziness in the 80s.

http://www.thrasherswheat.org/ptma/village_voice_w89.htm

No one would give a shit about Springsteen's background - except that he always goes to such great lengths to remind everyone of how working class he is! That's a large part of his image that he has cultivated tirelessly (which is lame).

I'm gonna go ahead and duck in anticipation of Yoga Flames.

iatee, yeah I agree: I don't think you *need* to latch onto their specific biographies to get a lot out of their art. And moreover, that taking this biographical angle on their art can make the artist seem smaller, less interesting, to someone who doesn't come from that background. That's mostly the responsibility of the listener, though I think Bruce has encouraged the biographical angle more than Neil has, or at least done less to puncture it.

No one would give a shit about Springsteen's background - except that he always goes to such great lengths to remind everyone of how working class he is! That's a large part of his image that he has cultivated tirelessly (which is lame).

Before ToL, how many Springsteen songs can seriously be treated as Bruce singing about his own life?

it occurs to me that i don't really know that much about neil's childhood or upbringing or anything and i have like a zillion records by him....

"Factory", for one, if you take his stories on 1978 bootlegs seriously (I love Bruce but my admiration would go WAAAY up if it turned out that these intro stories were complete bullshit).

xpost yeah, I read Shakey but skipped past anything about Neil's non-music life, I just wanted to hear cool rock stories.

He greased back his hair, put on shades, and went out on the road with a '50s-styled band called the Shocking Pinks. "I got way into that guy," says Young. "I was that guy for months. He was out there. It was a movie to me. Nobody saw it but me, but who gives a shit."

^^^luv

It doesn't matter if Springsteen is actually singing about his own life or not, it's that he meticulously markets himself as the man who can legitimately sing about the working man's troubles, because he's been there and he understands.

"marketing" vs. writing music that lower class people enjoy and can relate to

joining the chorus of disinterest in authenticity questions, biographical validation and who has more claim to real suffering. that said, bruce has made a big issue of his own working-class "realness", and young's music does seem to channel alienated, drug-damaged emotional agony (druggies having life-pain shocker). being kinda "that way" myself, i relate more to NY's wounded weirdo thing, but i suspect that bruce's more grounded and emotionally/socially connected outlook is a big part of his universal appeal. plus probably a product of him not being a human lab experiment

"Trans was about all these robot-humanoid people working in this hospital and the one thing they were trying to do was teach this little baby to push a button. That's what the record's about. Read the lyrics, listen to all the mechanical voices, disregard everything but that computerized thing, and it's clear Trans is the beginning of my search for communication with a severely handicapped nonoral person. 'Transformer man' is a song for my kid. If you read the words to that song - and look at my child with his little button and his train set and his transformer - the whole thing is for Ben.

"People completely misunderstood Trans. They put me down for fuckin' around with things I shouldn't have been involved with. Well, fuck them. But it hurt, because this was for my kid."

But how could anybody have known what it was about, I argue. The whole thing was so obscure. "It was very obscure," says Young. "They didn't have a fuckin' chance in the world. The whole thing is, Trans is about communication, but it's not getting through. And that's what my son is. You gotta realize - you can't understand the words on Trans, and I can't understand my son's words. So feel that.

wow

yeah in that particular instance I have found the bio-background really illuminating

Yeah that interview in particular, for me, threw a whole new light on Neil's 80s records. I mean, I'm as wary of the whole autobio kinda thing as anyone, but I do think that Young's experience with his kid is a pretty intense experience that goes beyond heartbreak, etc. It's not the kind of thing that lends itself to you know, standard artistic expression. How he dealt with it in his music is pretty fascinating.

also, LOL at Bruce's People magazine days.

There's also Young's feud with Geffen. That surely influenced his 80s output to an extent.

Weirdest revelation from "Shakey" is where Nils (the link between Neil and Bruce!) claims he performed on the "Tonight's the Night" tour with weights on his legs under his pants to keep him from moving around so much. No wonder the dude just got new hips.

Another interesting parallel between the two very different acts is their sense of loyalty. Both have been essentially working with the same group of people both behind the scenes and up front, til death do they part, for the better part of 30+ years. Of course, Neil is prone to going decades between phone calls and Bruce is generous to a fault, but neither seems to forget the people that have had their backs over the years.

One big difference is their isolation, or lack thereof. Neil lives on his Broken Arrow ranch and doesn't socialize. Bruce is an engaged part of the community, popping up all over and even giving out Halloween candy. Very reflective of their respective musical personalities, I think.

I read Shakey a long time ago, but I seem to remember the 'decades between phone calls' aloofness sticking out more than his dedication to those people.

Bruce Springsteen. Going home from work one day (NJ to NYC), there was a German Tourist family on the 129 bus. This is Northeast NJ, which looks like Brooklyn, and a little German girl said in German, "Daddy, are we in New York?" and the father replied, "No, New Jersey." Then one of their friends said, "Ah! Bruce Springsteen!" (in a heavy German accent).

Could you ever imagine a story like that with Neil Young?

yes, except they would be traveling hippies somewhere on the campus of ohio state, and the little girl would be a dime bag.

burtst never sleeps

E STREET BAND DIDN'T PLAY LIVE AT SUPER BOWL OMG

WWNeilD?

This doesn't surprise me at all. Isn't this pretty much the norm now at huge, nationally televised events? At least Bruce didn't have to lip synch.

First Yo Yo Ma, now this. WHO CAN I STILL BELIEVE IN :'^(

It doesn't matter if Springsteen is actually singing about his own life or not, it's that he meticulously markets himself as the man who can legitimately sing about the working man's troubles, because he's been there and he understands.

― the maximum value that ZS obtains given its constraint is 8 (Z S), Wednesday, February 4, 2009 4:25 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

really? he does?

does he market himself that way or has he been there and he understands?

I dunno. I'm probably way off as usual, but does no one else get that vibe? I feel like from the day I was born it has been drilled into my skull that Springsteen = an everyday unpretentious guy that I'm supposed to understand. It's possible that I had an evil preschool teacher who brainwashed me into believing this.

First Yo Yo Ma, now this. WHO CAN I STILL BELIEVE IN :'^(
The weird thing about Yo Yo Ma is that he actually had a backup cello, made of carbon fiber, in case it got too cold. A company near my home makes them, and supposedly they're not affected by extreme climate changes.

Yes, I noticed that the military band at the inauguration all had black string instruments, which I presumed to be some non-wood material.

Methinks Yo-Yo wanted the option to not even bring his normal cello out if it were colder, not that it mattered from a sonic perspective which instrument he was miming with.

I sorta sympathize with people trying to do good sound reinforcement of acoustic instruments outside in a big venue, particularly in winter. Though, why is it so bloody important that there be the illusion of live music? Veering way off ye topic, of course.

Illusion vs. Reality

http://www.imperiodamagica.com.br/fotos/outros_assuntos/doug_henning.jpg

lock thread

What's Graham Nash doing on this thread?

i mean if ppl are really getting up in arms about bruce sullying the gritty, intimate "real" experience of the super bowl fucking halftime show they really outta get the fuck out

thought the referee part was awesome btw. super bowl halftime shows are something that can't be stagey and goofy and over-the-top ENOUGH, ever.

So is Bosscocked the new "Rockrolled"?

> Rickrolled

I really like some of those old Springsteen chestnuts, but his sound of 'rock and roll' is just not one that I get obsessed about. Even for all of the stripped down stuff, there is just something Vegas or Neil Diamond about it all like he is having to bite his hand to not have three keyboard players and a horn section. That sound works on Rosalita and Born to Run, but is just isn't visceral enough for me. Neil Young singing about the Astrodome or salmon going to spawn while spacey as hell is delivered in a much more matter of fact way that appeals to me. Even when Neil goes Devo, it seems earthy. Then again, if given the choice, I'd probably choose Pearl Jam over Bon Jovi.

Going back to contenderizer's (great) post about neil's isolated world vs. bruce's social world.

NY = love vs. BS = companionship

Has Neil written more love songs or songs about love? (Will to Love, Only Love Can Break Your Heart, Razor Love, Love is a Rose, Love and only Love, Look out for my Love, A Little Thing Called Love, Hold on to your Love etc. etc. etc.) So, intensely fascinated by the idea of love - but doesn't really like people?

vs.

Does early Bruce Springsteen really love that chick or does he just really need someone else in the car? A solid bro would also do, and it wouldn't be too gay (Backstreets)

Should this be factored into the argument?

http://www.heggle.com/item/2220584/Adam_Sandler_-_Dancing_in_the_Dark

It all comes back to Adam Sandler in the end.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

sonned in the usa

damn

Makes sense. A lot of people hate Springsteen's music. Just about everyone likes some Neil Young at least.

haha wow hadn't seen these results

they're about right ....

this was a good thread - not sure who is the more challopsy vote (ie, who is more canonized)

so wrong

u mad

shouldn't have let british people vote

u mad

shouldn't have let british people vote

is Brooce huge in England or something?

nobody understands me but bruce

I wish he were here to write a song about the results

It would be a heartbreaking song. Sadface.

Well Greasy Johnny lost to
Harmonica Frank
in the contest of their lives
And now the boardwalk's filled with trash and paper
and there's a
darkness growing in the light

another american job lost to nafta :(:(

A+ Mr. Que

lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9adAljIaKYc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Ncuu8MfBk