Lou Reed vs. John Cale poll - (solo careers only)

Your prose is supple, your defenses well-sourced.

Fragments of a rainy season >>>>> anything by Lou (sorry, Lou. Love loads of your stuff, but it's not this good)

Reed has more albums I'd like to listen to -- and more bad albums to keep things interesting -- than Cale. No question that Cale rules the seventies: I'll take Fear and Slow Dazzle over Berlin and the perpetually overrated Transformer. But then with the release of The Blue Mask I like almost everything Reed done, Cale-Eno's Wrong Way Up an exception.

pretty skeptical about the 'bad albums keep things interesting' thing (outside of maybe MMM)

Lou's questionable taste in producers, subject matter, and guitar sounds is the kind of quirk I expect from a major artist.

wait, what does that leave to like?

No question that Cale rules the seventies: I'll take Fear and Slow Dazzle over Berlin and the perpetually overrated Transformer. But then with the release of The Blue Mask...

100% OTM.

If you haven't heard a Lou Reed album that works for you, keep trying. That's what I learned, in the end after many years.

John Cale has done some maginificent stuff, but Lou has a potential to connect with me like he's the blood running in my soul, etc.

Music For a New Society >>>> Reed's '80s albums.

Cale a better songwriter and certainly a superior melodicist in every way. Lou Reed makes more interesting albums every goddamn time.

Which btw is why I refuse to vote in this poll, which I'm sure is breaking everybody's heart

;_;

I love lots of solo Lou, but Cale's solo career was more interesting and with more highlights.

At the end of the day, I think I just hate Lou Reed.

You Cale fans are brutal.

Easy to be brutal when Cale suffers from an 'also-ran' rep - despite the fact that he was always the more interesting artist. (I don't think he has that problem on ILM.) But, for example, from his allmusic bio:

Cale has covered a wide territory on his solo albums without ever quite making his mark as a major artist. His songs and concepts are interesting, but ultimately he does not have the striking traditional rock talents of someone like, say, his old rival Lou Reed. The hooks aren't that sharp, the lyrics -- often dealing with the psychological and social dilemmas of late 20th-century life, in somewhat arty terms -- not as gripping.

voted cale for "fear" but must admit i don't really get "paris 1919"

i also really like all of the "inside the dream syndicate" stuff but that's not really cale solo nor do i think it's going to sway any votes on this thread

that amg bio is some straight up bullshit.

when I discovered Cale's Island period I was like "why have I wasted all these years listening to those crappy Lou Reed albums."

John Cale has done some maginificent stuff, but Lou has a potential to connect with me like he's the blood running in my soul, etc.

I love lots of solo Lou, but Cale's solo career was more interesting and with more highlights.

Uh.. OTM on both counts? Fuck.

I think I'll have to give this to Cale, who inches ahead by a nose b/c of the Nico collabs and the awesomeness that is the Eno/Cale LP.

not voting! they are pretty much equals to me.

Cale's autobiography "What's Welsh for Zen" is worth reading.

^ yes but good luck. for me the book is killed by some of the most over-bearing, cloying "graphic design" ever. i had to put it down. i doubt the designer ever listened to John Cale. untenable.

Cale on haircuts alone.

Okay, those Cale You Tube clips upthread are bone-chillingly good, I admit.

yes but good luck. for me the book is killed by some of the most over-bearing, cloying "graphic design" ever. i had to put it down. i doubt the designer ever listened to John Cale. untenable.

― nerve_pylon, Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:14 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

I agree completely, hopefully someday there will be a text-only version, it would stand on its own, I think.

so many great clips on youtube

That 1963 clip shredded me. Absolutely shredded me.

But if you don't like Velvet bootlegs than you cannot come over to my house.

I'm not going to let anyone over to my house who doesn't like Velvet boots. Sorry, the free booze ends here.

I'm not interested in going to your house if you voted for Lou Reed

prolly filled with meth-addicted tranny hookers anyway

Hahaha.

^^^^^

meth-addicted tranny hookers >>>>> heroin-addicted bike-riding humorless Teutonic harmonium-playing, uh, lady? I forgot my point. Oh, here it is: "Coney Island Baby" + "Wait", for example, are so lovely. But that was more than 30 years ago! John Cale, on the the other hand, (relatively) recently made the very entertaining Hobosapiens album. Fuck. Impossible. Lou Reed. Ha!

"Wait" is a lovely song, yes.

I'm sorry to crash this Cale party. I have this feeling that Cale will win this poll by miles, and then I'll just be standing out in the rain with good intentions. *weeps*

I voted Lou Reed, I love John Cale's solo stuff to pieces but did he write "Walk On the Wild Side"? No. "Kicks"? No (and that one he made several efforts to write). However, I saw him live I think three times and Lou only once, and Cale live >>>>>>> Lou live. Cale brought huge game live in the mid-eighties, like damn.

lol
http://www.theonion.com/content/from_print/area_man_seated_next_to_lou

I only recently really dug into Cale's solo work, after being totally blown away by Paris 1919. Cale definitely seems more consistent, and agree w/John that he's the more accomplished melodocist of the two... its weird, I had always assumed (without hearing anything) that Cale's solo work would be filled with aggressive experimentalism and noise and ugliness, and was shocked to discover his catalog actually jampacked with beautiful little pop vignettes, really sweetly orchestrated and meticulously arranged, in many cases. Also loads of funny songs/titles (personal fave: "The Man Who Couldn't Afford to Orgy").

BUT, I gotta go with Lou. Always frustrating, frequently bafflingly shitty, but his highs are SO high. Coney Island Baby and the third VU album have maintained such a major place in my listening library since I was a teenager that its impossible for me to shortchange the hold that Reed's best moments have over me.

Cale on haircuts alone.

― bendy, den 22 februari 2009 20:37 (4 days ago) Bookmark
he's taught me so much.
and i think i might even consider his highs higher than lou's. if this was about VU though it would be harder

non-Cale VU weighs this heavily in Lou's favor, methinks. Although I guess it isn't really fair to consider those Lou Reed solo albums

john cale is a great songwriter but I honestly don't find that many of his albums very compelling past Fear.

non-Cale VU weighs this heavily in Lou's favor

SOLO CAREER ONLY

yeah yeah, I voted Lou anyway based on Coney Island Baby, Transformer, and Street Hassle

obv as artists it makes more sense to compare everything they've done

but I knew that VU-work would make a cheap and easy mental tie-breaker (FOR THE WRONG SIDE)

potential to be remixed into something amazing:

My god - he sounds like Bill Withers.

*IS TRYING to sound like Withers

PS if anyone wants to start posting awesome solo lou reed videos GO FOR IT

there is surprisingly little live footage of Reed from the 70s

altho his hilarious interview from Australia ('74?) is all over the place

okay seriously

There's this radness:

John Cale = Gary Oldman in 5th Element

(at least in terms of haircuts)

I have not listened to Lou Reed in probably 15 years. At one time I used to dig Loaded which was really sorta Lou's first solo record, and I recently learned to love (again) the '70s shit of Reed and even the Kinks, those kind of bands, and Bowie around the same time, early '70s. I felt like Lou, and John Cale, were good '70s artists because they were all about that decadence train that Bowie was also on, thus it was all artifice and ridiculous. So I mean I still listen to John Cale, from time to time, like Paris 1919 and the Island albums, altho Helen of Troy was just as much some bullshit as those stupid Lou Reed records of the later '70s and early '80s. Catchier, though, mostly, and also I think John Cale on things like "Taking It All Away" and "Leaving It Up to You" and "Guts" is totally convincing as a hard-rock screamer with certain geopolitical points, broad perhaps but appropriate, to make, plus I like the European irony of "Mr. Wilson" and "Ski Patrol," he shoulda worked with Brian Wilson. Lou Reed, you couldn't really see him working with Brian Wilson or for that matter, Boyce and Hart or even Firefall, whereas Cale always seemed to enjoy America and L.A., he probably played a lot of tennis and did good coke and enjoyed himself and then made those records. I especially find Slow Dazzle charming. Vintage Violence is about as half-assed as many a Lou record, altho I like "Gideon's Bible" and a couple of others there.

But Lou as a versifier and wordsmith, that's the rub and sometimes he hits it so right you forget how horrible a singer he is. He makes an interesting noise with words attached, I don't guess he's really horrible, but I was trying to get coffee the other morning at Portland Brew on 12th Ave. S. and I wasn't woke up and they were playing Tom Waits, and you have to blame Lou for that and a whole lot more. So I voted for him because someone with that much Bad Influence on An Entire Generation or Generations of Indie People, like the dude who had to hear Tom Waits at like 10:00 a.m., plus all that Violent Femmes crap that came later, the Silos or whoever--Lou's a big big Influence on Americana too in case you didn't know, it used to be like Townes van Zandt and Dylan in his God phase but all heartland rockers have heard Lou and his Simple Strumming--you have to vote for him. But I never listen to him, avoid him actually just like I do Tom Waits. I don't need that noise.

and I know, people might say, but Edd what about "I Wanna Be Black" and the jazz-skronk-American-speech of Lou, the William Carlos Williams of his time? I wouldn't argue with that. And I would probably enjoy hearing New Sensations and "Don't Talk to Me about Work" right now. I just never found his persona or personae so compelling I could forgive his occasional half-assedness, plus he like Herbie Hancock records because they were well engineered and I guess that's cool too, but Cale at least seemed a little less pretentious most of the time.

actually I blame Beefheart for Tom Waits. The other night I was at a gallery show/party/performance feat a men's chorus that does a cappella versions of Leonard Cohen songs (The Conspiracy of Beards, they're called) and I knew it was time to leave when some guy started talking about how the three greatest songwriters of all time were Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits, and Nick Cave.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

last minute arguments:

uh pretend he doesn't talk in this one

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

nice

sweet victory

You people suck.

I think we just proved Lou sucks. At least, in comparison.

why do you hate democracy so much alfred

duhhhhh
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/tomasutpen/Album%202b/6a6ea12f.jpg

just a couple of bros in long island for xmas ...

Has Lou ever been as utterly out of his gourd as John looks here? (starting abt. 1/3 of the way thru the video)

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/arts/photos/2006/12/09/reed-lou-cp-62751.jpg
"this poll's results are flawed! Sweeeet Jaaaaane!"

no.

lou loses because of this monstrosity.

went to the new andy warhol exhibit at the de young museum last weekend. pretty amazing. saw a ton of stuff i'd never seen before. it was dedicated to andy's connection w/music. lots of album covers i didn't know he'd done but i'd seen a billion times before. a few rooms for VU stuff. my wife never knew it before, but she's got a crush on cale.

Okay, fine. I'm not going to be bothered being bitter about these results. But I will say one thing: a person who manages to generalize about Lou Reed's lyrics to the point of saying they're all about "how awesome New York is" really hasn't heard enough his career to make an adequate judgement between them, in my opinion.

I mean, yes, Cale's haircut dominance is undeniable, but we're not voting haircuts here.

you're right. I've only heard 10 or so of his solo albums. 9 of them were definitely about new york, 1 of them seemed like it might be about berlin, but I'm pretty sure it was still about new york.

either way I'll change my vote to undecided, so john cale only wins 54-28.

But dude, even if that were true, New York has individual, different people in it. It's not like he's talking about the city exclusively all the time. That's insane. Thanks for your honorary vote, though.

I hope his investment banker song cycle comes out soon

BHAHAAHAHAHAHA

He can collaborate with Pete Townshend for the ultimate rock opera of the new depression. Or maybe Cale & Townshend can. Or the three of them can.

Has Lou ever been as utterly out of his gourd as John looks here? (starting abt. 1/3 of the way thru the video)

Thanks for that. Hilarious and very touching at the same time.

One more time with the Berlin Bataclan Badness:

He's more goth than Robert Smith, btw.

John Cale's "Empty Bottles" might make me forgive, but still...there is something really wrong with ILM that Cale would win this fight. And I won't forget it. I'm going to get together my own army of Reed supporters. And don't be surprised if we come round at 3 AM with 50 tranny hookers.

THE WORLD MUST LEARN TO WALK ON THE WILD SIDE.

more reasons JC so obviously wins:

1. hedda gabler - last 3 minutes
2. the ridiculously jaunty riff in jack the ripper
3. sylvia said - almost as good as stephanie/lisa/caroline says and it's just some cale throwaway
4. the snarl in his voice in the first two lines of 'taking it all away'
5. buffalo ballet's absolutely pristine chorus
6. dying on the vine - the way he says "I was thinking about what's *mine*"
7. the feeling behind 'mr. wilson'...menacing wistfulness? (the interlude part could be a lost smile track)

yes, I know Hedda Gabbler is awesome. I KNOW Jack The Ripper is also awesome. Dying On The Vine. I know. But please. We can't have this kind of carnage on ILM. It's not right.

Haven't you even heard the Coney Island Baby album? HMM?

And yes, "Mr. Wilson" is awesome, too. And it's all your fault that I don't have it on my iPod anymore.

coney island baby is prolly about new york isn't it

Hahaha. Look I'm listening to something far more goth than any of these guys right now. I'll have to get back to you later.

prolly not more goth than this:

I ALREADY KNOW ABOUT THAT SONG I KNOW IT IS AWESOME PLEASE STOP ENCOURAGING ME

does lou reed have a secret cache of songs that are better than these??? I do not get it

8. 'mad about you' theme song = 'dirty ass rock n'roll' intro

9. 'gun' would be the best song on 'white light/white heat' if it were on that album

10. eno/cale having the highest album-cover-being-shitty to music-being-good ratio in history

It's all about better haircuts to you people! I'm disgusted with ILM. This thing was rigged, man. This whole poll is rigged.

Cale's Caribbean Sunset album is absolutely shredding me right now, though.

praetorian underground, magazines = so awesome

Well Lou Reed certainly never did anything as post-punk as that. I'll give you that.

I mean here I am and I've been trying to figure out what I really want to listen to for about 48 hours and then I hear this Cale Caribbean Sunset stuff and it's like "oh shit, here's what I was searching for all along, this just shuts everything else up". "Magazines" is insanely brilliant. Sure is.

it's not too late to change your vote

symbolically

"I Love You, Suzanne" >>>>>>>>> Cale post-1980 (except Wrong Way Up).

"Villa Albani"! When was Lou more new wave than that? Never, man. John Cale had new wave in his back pocket, it's true.

5. buffalo ballet's absolutely pristine chorus

OTMx100000000000000000000000

cale all the way for me

Is Songs For Drella going to decide this thread forever?

Thanks to my friend for mentioning it to me. I don't think I've ever heard that until now.

"Trouble With Classicists" god, even Brian Eno couldn't make it any better.

"Style It Takes" is so mournful.

I'd get into the argt but really Lou Reed changed my life - if I were big on "objectivity," I'd probably say Cale's songs are more interesting etc whatever, but fuck that, I am a guy who will defend Sally Can't Dance. The album. But really this:

9. 'gun' would be the best song on 'white light/white heat' if it were on that album

demonstrates that a lotta anti-Lou votes are essentially nothing-is-great-if-everyone-knows-it's-great stuff so Lou defenders can rest easy knowing that each vote for Cale was also an acknowledgment of Lou's in-point-of-fact victory

I only voted one time, not 55

I'm appointing you spokesman for a generation, be graceful about it iatee

*straightens tie*

Sally Can't Dance is a much more interesting 'sellout' album than Caribbean Fucking Sunset ("Billy"!)

Caribbean Sunset isn't a sellout album, it's just kinda weird

No, it's definitely a misbegotten attempt at selling records.

(hence weird, I guess, as most of these records are)

all you Cale fan club members haven't even mentioned his best solo album yet so I'm sending out a poseur alert on you guys

And Songs to Drella is greattttt - and goes to show how a tiny bit of Cale could bring out the best in a good Lou Reed song. See: piano in 'Open House', keyboards in 'Slip Away'

His 'best' solo album is Paris 1919 in a sorta yeah, duh, way. Maybe you are thinking of Music for a New Society though?

god, I could have sworn I tried Paris 1919 once, and it did nothing for me. Maybe I have a bad memory. I will reinvestigate.

Honi Soit you buncha noobs

haha I am pretty sure if we did the poll that would be like 8th

paris 1919 is one of my favorite albums ever

lou reed has not made one of my favorite albums ever

haha I am pretty sure if we did the poll that would be like 8th

because half the people voting would only have heard Fear, Paris 1919, and Songs for Drella

seriously "John Cale is better than Lou Reed!" is like the grandfather of all ChallOps

maybe they should take a 'r u cale legit or not' quiz before they can vote

lots of people saying something doesn't mean it's wrong

right now listening to a Cale boot live in '84 doin "Streets of Laredo" where he is audibly high as fuck - the 1st time I saw him in L.A. it was clear he'd scored something really sweet earlier in the evening

lots of people saying something doesn't mean it's wrong

hence why we should go to the record sales scoreboard to see whether Lou Reed actually beats John Cale's ass with a stick

listening to the Cale-on-dope version of "Buffalo Ballet" now though - it has to be said that if yr thing is melody, Cale destroys Lou Reed every day, awake or asleep, sober or wasted, home or away

I think that's why 'Fragments' is so accessible - strip away all the production and instruments and you have a lot of simple songs with very, very pretty melodies

a good example of this is the live version of 'the soul of carmen miranda' that I posted upthread vs. the recorded enofied version where you sorta have to hunt for the melody

He's just not the...personality Lou is. I like Lou's outsized ego, curiosity, and attempts to situate himself in the canon. Lou Reed is the only artist for whom I'll make this exception.

For me it just comes down to who I would want to go to bed with. And I'm sorry, but I'll always want to go to bed with Lou Reed more than John Cale. Sorry.

I like that aspect of Lou Reed. And I like pretty much everything the VU released/didn't release - but I can't help but see his solo career as someone perpetually not living up to his talent. In my head, he's placed in the same category as McCartney/Lennon solo careers. Not the case with John Cale.

"Sweet Jane" is playing in the cafe I'm in.

somebody is singing along to it

Gonna dig up Sweet Jane on my iPod now. No one can stop me.

somebody is singing along to it

lots of people singing something doesn't mean it's bad

He's just not the...personality Lou is. I like Lou's outsized ego, curiosity, and attempts to situate himself in the canon. Lou Reed is the only artist for whom I'll make this exception.

but this is true, and goes to why I'll always vote Lou no matter how easily Cale could spin theory/chops around him: Lou's a pop star. He's got all that goin'. Cale's yr classic artiste-auteur. If it's all about the music, maaaaaan, yeah, Cale's the boy. But this is "careers," not just tunes. Lou's career is a proper pop story with heroes and villains and peaks and valleys. Cale's an underappreciated artist who isn't actually underappreciated but whose fans like to think of him that way.

Yeah -- Cale's level of fame and renown is exactly where it should be.

I guess I should have titled the poll "which artist makes music that you like more"

yeah but "it's only about the music" is never the case. this isn't the moon or the post-nuclear-war future. part of who John Cale is is the guy who shows up at Fender's loaded and plays a great set. when Lou Reed wants to get high for a show, he shoots up on stage.

^^^^^ a big part of why he didn't end up making as much good music as he should've

http://www.furious.com/perfect/calereed.html

why do you hate pop

I sorta like pop and wish lou reed hadn't been to lazy/occupied to make it

too

Lou made great pop!

Listening to Sad Songs off Berlin, now.

church of anthrax is better than lou's entire solo career

maybe it's just my ears, cause I honestly think 'I love you suzanne' is an okay song but nothing amazing

things I really like in lou reed's solo career: 'romeo had juliette', 'wait', 'men of good fortune'...the lyrics of 'last great american whale'

Why? Because there's some song off Cale's Caribbean Sunset that RIPS IT OFF ENTIRELY

xpost

Cale ripped off Sad Songs. Get used to it. Believe it, and then ask yourself why we have to choose between these men when we can have both.

church of anthrax is better than lou's entire solo career

those Alice Cooper Band rehearsals in '70 were better than Exile & Sticky Fingers put together

I'm gonna make the Cale poll after all

j0hn better bring some good arguments for honi soit

haha i love how iatee is pwning this thread you speak for me sir.

srsly the other 54 need to speak up! it's me vs. 4 people who apparently really love john cale but think lou reed was cooler

it's you and about 30 sock accounts who really hate lou reed

also my honi soit argt is deeply bimble-like: "dead or alive" best song of all time, can heal sick & raise dead, they'll bury me w/my promo 12" copy of it, etc

this thread needs some people who actually hate john cale

I really need to listen to Music For a New Society and Fragments...

(never owned either one)

john d. just can't accept that cale was better than reed (easy) can he

nyah nyah

let me know when cale writes a single that charts

in any country

that is the true measure of excellence

when there's that much sand in the vadge of your opponent u know ur right.

lmao @ the idea that lou is some big pop star. what, one song in the top ten, a couple albums in the top 40? i like lou reed fine, even though he's pretty much been one of ilm's punching bags since day one (and it's the hardcore popists who've been shitting over him too, so the idea of lou as pop is even weirder). lou's albums have been extremely spotty, with some genuine stinkers liberally spread throughout. john cale had a nice streak of excellent work in the early to mid 70s that really sets him apart. yes, he had a really bad 80s too. i mean, you're seriously throwing the "he never had a chart hit" card down??? in a fucking cale vs. reed fight????

Lou for songs; Cale for arrangements. easy.
best thing JC ever did = "Heartbreak Hotel"

when there's that much sand in the vadge of your opponent u know ur right.

why do people have to ruin fun arguments with this kinda stuff, like, every time :(

I voted Cale because his best work has a palpable aura of personal desperation that I find lacking in Reed's. Cale at his most desperate seems full of agony and self-loathing, which for me comes across as really powerful (as on Sabotage or "Leaving It Up To You"). Reed at his most desperate is merely full of contempt for his listeners and audience (as seen in numerous live albums and interviews).

Their worst work is proably a tossup, but Cale's peaks beat Lou's. Same reason I voted for Patti in the Patti Vs. PJ poll, even though Patti has done things far more godawful than PJ.

also, the melodies.

I voted Cale because "Paris 1919" is as close as I'm ever going to get to a favorite single song. It's total magic for me, inexhaustible pleasure. Saw an amazing solo performance around 1989 too. I find both of their album output spotty, but Cale has so many highs and even Reed's highs don't do much for me. I have a hard time fathoming Reed's downfall after the VU, but his smugness gets overwhelming by the late 70s. It's like he declared himself NYC's ambassador to the hinterlands, whereas his VU songwriting simply relishes NYC with goofy wonder. "Put jelly on your shoulder" works for me, but "You hit me with a flower" does not. "Whiplash girl child in the dark" works, "Shaved her leg and then he was a she" does not.

I can sum up my feelings about Lou Reed with a single word: "Asshole." Literally, I can't get past it with him -- this notion that the guy making the music is just an insufferable jerk.

On the other hand, Cale is one of my favorite artists, period. I get why not everyone would dig him—I remember a guy doing a lethal parody of that performance of "Frozen Warnings" posted above and just crying it was so spot-on—but as a conservatory-trained musician who also fell in love with the Beach Boys, I can just completely identify.

Also, forget this "peaks and valleys" crap w/ Cale. Vintage Violence, Paris 1919, The Island trilogy, Sabotage Live, Music for a New Society, etc. -- the guy's career is absolutely loaded with highlights and probably more consistent than all but a handful of artists. And barring Robert Wyatt, I can't think of too many people who made a record as vibrant as Hobosapiens at sixty.

I can sum up my feelings about Lou Reed with a single word: "Asshole." Literally, I can't get past it with him -- this notion that the guy making the music is just an insufferable jer

Which is all the more remarkable that the man wrote "The Kids," "Billy," "Legendary Hearts," "New Sensations," and "Halloween Parade."

"You hit me with a flower"

this line was written by Andy Warhol - the song "Vicious" was his idea and I think the whole line "Vicious, you hit me with a flower" was Andy's.

I don't think Lou Reed's assholeness takes away from his music. (Nor do I think assholes making pretty art is particularly exceptional.)

(though it might be why he's released so many half-assed albums, so I guess it takes away from his music in that sense)

I'm still working my way through the Cale discography, out of sheer dogged fascination. Like Reed, I think he has a lot of albums that strike me as boring or dry, but the times when he gets it right are such high peaks that they compel me to keep digging. I've played Paris 1919 twice, now, and I'm rather puzzled by it. I get the feeling there are great melodies there, real nice sing-able melodies I could really enjoy if I got to know them well enough, but from a first glance, there's something rather rote, rinky-dink and cutesy about it all that fails to compel me to listen again just now. It's just not really the kind of style I want from him, even though I'd wager Jack The Ripper could be said to be in the same style, but somehow better. I'd rather Cale be totally crazy and off-the-hook or slow and solemn or something, even if he fails at it.

In other news, I've just absolutely flipped my lid over the Eno version of "The Soul Of Carmen Miranda" because god, if that isn't Eno at his near-best...so I'm gonna try that album Words For The Dying, next.

Jury's out on Music For A New Society. Tried it a year ago, deleted it, now trying again. Decided there were a few keepers in that spotty album. Will listen again and dig them out.

Honi Soit is another one I tried last year and subsequently deleted and am going to try again soon.

Oh also! I'm actually gonna give Church of Anthrax a listen! Looking forward to that.

I love The Soul of Carmen Miranda, but I actually don't like what Eno does to it. Did you listen to the youtube clip of it upthread w/ the steel guitar? Incredible.

Yes, well that's what got me interested in the song and made me look it up, was that video. Nothing wrong with that version at all. One of the things that I think Cale has on Reed for me is the gorgeous piano playing he does sometimes, because I'm just a sucker for piano in a way I'll never ever be for guitar. This is really evident on Songs For Drella, but I don't really wish to choose a side between them on that album because it would absolutley break my heart in two. They both did a fantastic job on that.

Is there another version of "Soul Of Carmen Miranda" released on something else or is this You Tube video the only place I can get this version?

I'm gonna try Fragments, too. That's definitely on my plate up next.

I don't think it's been released on any other album.

Cannot believe you haven't heard Fragments.

Like stop bothering with the other stuff and go listen to that now.

Haha! Okay...but I have to wait for it to download, thanks! ;)

Also, I was re-reading the first half of this thread or so last night from back at the 2nd March (my birthday btw...and Lou Reed's) and it struck me that John D. had some really LOL funny stuff to say on this thread and in general, I just love this thread, I adore that all these people have contributed to debating these two men, both of which suddenly became more important to me personally in the last year than they had ever, ever been in the oh...25 years that I'd been aware of them.

I guess John D. is on tour now? He hasn't exactly been around lately on ILX as far as I know.

But yeah I do have one question for you, iatee, in all honesty. Have you heard Lou Reed's song The Blue Mask? Not the album, but the song. I don't even want to look it up on You Tube because I think a visual would really ruin it. It needs to be heard with no visuals. That song above all other Reed things is what keeps Cale in a #2 position at this point for me. It's an absolute catharsis of the soul.

Yeah his site says he is. I liked this thread too. Fwiw I listened to a *lot* of Lou Reed while posting and grew an appreciation for Coney Island Baby.

Yeah I've heard the whole album. It doesn't really do much for me.

Oh alright then. My favourite Lou Reed album is actually Rock & Roll Heart, but Coney was a good start.

Thanks for listening.

Another cool thing about these guys, especially from the Bataclan perspective, is, I'd already had my Nico phase about ten years ago, so she's totally separate from them for me. Although I heard some instrumentation on Cale's Artificial Intelligence album recently that reminded me of that mid-80's "Camera Obscura" album Cale did with her and the book I read about her & Cale on tour with the band in the early-mid 80's. Fantastic book, btw. Songs They Never Play On The Radio Cale was painted as being an extreme alcoholic at the time of all this, and paranoid of government conspiracies and stuff. I don't know anything more except that I thought that was the worst Nico album, really boring.

Artifical Intelligence wasn't very good at all, I saved three songs from it on my iPod. I really like the SOUND of the keyboards on the first track. Takes me back to 1985 for sure. "Black Rose" was another one I saved, undeniably beautiful song, I think.

Yeah artificial intelligence is not great, but 'black rose' is and 'dying on the vine' REALLY is. You might have to hear the fragments version first though. As I said before, maybe his best song.

Here it is:

(lolz the 3rd version of that song I'm posting on this thread.)

where can i hear this "Soul Of Carmen Miranda" eno version?
cus i need to hear this

it's on words for the dying

xpost - iatee you're still here!

Sigh...it's on one of two things...(deep breath, because I'm trying to be calm and I adore it and you're going to make me play it again and swoon into oblivion so I can finally stop posting all over this board and boring everyone)

1) Words For The Dying album
or
2) some box set of Eno called "Eno Box II: Vocals"

Really, I'll be quiet and calm now. Tell me what you think of it. Eno sortof makes me have a crush on him every couple years, but I've already said this on other threads, it doesn't bear repeating. I'm well aware he's only about 70% as brilliant as he believes he is or people think he is, but that's more than enough sometimes.

and its eno singing it?
ok i need

and "I'd rather Cale be totally crazy and off-the-hook or slow and solemn or something, even if he fails at it."
= i dunno if you'll really dig Fragments

it has been proven that anything with Eno vocals i will love with all of my heart

no it's cale vocals w/ a very, very eno soundscape

awwww so let down
i still need to hunt it down, though
and i almost bought that album two days ago

kicking myself now

No, no, no, iatee/Face of Wolf!! WAIT!!

I hear Eno backing vocals in this! I swear!

Eno's like a little pixie in the forest when he sings! Bewitching, like Pan in the forest, I ADORE his voice. Not as much as Pete Townshend's maybe, but he's up there.

anyway I haven't given up on the BJ Cole version, iatee, I assure you. Will rip it very soon. Need to take a break from ILX now and clear my head.

oh yeah he supply some "oooooooo"s

supplies

this would be a good moment to talk about how good wrong way up is

Yes, he does the "oooos" doesn't he? I told you! It's him! God I feel that way when he comes in at the end of that James song "Sometimes"! God, Eno vocals at the end of a song by someone else, can you beat it?

only with Eno vocals on a song by himself!
but yeah, Eno "ooos" completely sells a song for me

Yeah, he should sing all the time. Do lots and lots of albums with his own vocals. But he doesn't do nearly enough.

http://www.jimdero.com/News2003/GreatOct5EnoCale.html

this came up while googling the song title. not meant to be an endorsement of (er...) jim dero, just some interesting background:

Tacked on to that album almost as an afterthought was a short, catchy throwaway called "The Soul of Carmen Miranda" that Eno and Cale wrote while fooling around in the studio. "It was kind of like ESP, the way it developed, and I was really encouraged," Cale told me at the time. "I never expected that Brian and I would work together on songs, so it was a surprise. I thought that if we could reproduce the circumstances, we could do the same thing for an album."

Eno fans had been asking for years when he would sing on album again -- the stacked harmony vocals on his pop albums was one of the highlights of those discs -- but he'd been more interested in creating instrumental landscapes. "If you look at the transition through my first three albums, you'll see that the vocals occupy less and less of a place on those records," he told me. "People always assume that the stuff with words is the good stuff, the stuff that sold a lot and that everyone liked, and the other ambient stuff was not so well-liked. In fact, the opposite is true. My most popular record is 'Music for Airports.'

"I like the way I sing, but I never really expected anyone else to like it," he said. "I think of my voice as a sort of precision instrument. It's like a very sharp pencil. But most of the voices that people seem to like, most of the people that get described as good singers, have these fantastic paint brushes and great palettes of color."

Nevertheless, inspired by the chance result of "The Soul of Carmen Miranda," Eno decided to sing again, and he invited Cale to spend at month at his home and studio in Woodbridge, England. Hypnotic, driving and ultramelodic songs such as "Lay My Love" (which would eventually be covered by Chicago's Poi Dog Pondering), "Spinning Away" and "One Word" came together in the studio as Eno created gently pulsing rhythm beds on the drum machine and played swirling synthesizer and odd guitar parts while Cale added regal piano, organ and viola. They both arranged the tasteful contributions of a handful of outside musicians (notably the string players who color several songs) and shared the vocal duties, Cale with his rich, resonant baritone and Eno with his dirty choir-boy tenor.

It's hard to take all that in, because I'm so deeply in love with it all.

Right now I'm trying to restrict myself to playing the Cale song "Where There's A Will There's A Way" over and over on repeat as many times as I can stand it because this song has BEWITCHED me for the last 2 weeks and I need to get it out of my system in some final way if I can so it will finally LEAVE ME ALONE at last. I declare, it is THE most perfect song Cale has ever done in his life, and I really need to close up shop with it, else it will haunt me every waking hour for the next three weeks at least.

Other than that, I decided that if Eno had ever even ENTERED THE ROOM while Cale & Reed were doing "Trouble With Classicists" for the Songs For Drella album then the entire universe would have exploded and I might have had three orgasms at one time.

iatee - I just got your email, but the problem is the ilx email system doesn't let you see the return address of the poster, so there's no way I could email you back. You are very kind, but I have already acquired the said musical John Cale material. I just have to put it on my iPod now. Thanks for your help.

Alright, I've finally ripped the BJ Cole version from You Tube to my iPod, thanks iatee. Say what ever you want about him, but Cale had a damn good haircut.

OH NO, Church of Anthrax, second track in - "The Hall of Mirrors In The Palace of Versailles", oh mercy of a godless sky this is the ultimate SHIT. THIS IS WHERE DIF JUZ GOT THEIR SOUND! Unfuckable with. What year was this? Holy hell. This can't be REAL. 1971 you say? 1971?????? Oh my god.

having given close listens to Fear, Helen of Troy, and Slow Dazzle over the past few weeks... I dunno these results just seem so wrong. I LOVE Paris 1919 and Church of Anthrax and a handful of tracks from various other albums but this dude is just NOT the songwriter or fascinating personality that Lou is.

will grant J0hn D's point that Cale is a better melodicist. but that isn't everything.

depends on the day for me, i still could go either way. though the fact that cale's paris 1919 guest vocalist tonight in LA is (wah wah) ben gibbard brings him down a notch today!

<em>I can sum up my feelings about Lou Reed with a single word: "Asshole." Literally, I can't get past it with him -- this notion that the guy making the music is just an insufferable jerk.</em>
Anybody who still thinks this is a reason Cale > Reed do yourself a favor and never read Cale's autobio.

yeah, not like cale isn't as egomaniacal as reed, or at least close. and man, if i only listened to people who i thought were nice guys/gals, i'd have a boring music collection.

Certainly worth a thread: Nice people who make great music?

Willie Nelson

Lou Reed wrote and recorded the song 'Street Hassle' - Lou Reed wins.

The Cale autobio made him an asshole? I missed that, just cemented him as more of a genius in my mind and a superior "all around guy" to Reed to boot. No contest, the results of this poll are right on IMO. Cale is an artist, Reed is a personality.

Merry Christmas! https://twitter.com/psychedelicmag/status/813036724490301441