Tupac or Biggie

does ned prefer biggie or tupac?

^^^prior reading

big

amazing that this poll hasn't been done

biggie.

i used to say 2pac but now i say biggie

Tupac is the man and all of you that do not like that you suck my dick and if you are at it you can suck pac dick to bicth and i will not ever say biggie is anygood all he was is a fat ass tupac and all. Michael A.K.A That nigga

shit ain't even a question imo

pac rapped his ass off but often as not wasn't sayin shit worth hearing whereas biggie was a writer imo

I know Biggie will win this, and probably with an 80/20 split. I wanna talk about why though... it kinda strikes me that BIG's critical rep has never been higher than it is now, while Tupac's has never been lower. Is this due to any fluctuation in Actual Rap Nowadays, or is it just swings and roundabouts?

2pac's obnoxious death cultists ruined his crit rep imo. I respect Big's skills of course, but I never straight up connected w/ him like I did with Pac.

Yah 2pac currently = Jim Morrison of Hip Hop = can't be heard for noise of pontification.

Still voted Biggie cos I think he's formally stronger rapper but I reckon this is absolutely about how old you were in 1996.

i think now that the decade-long trickle posthumous Pac albums and cash-in projects has stopped there'll finally be some breathing room and in the future people can just kind of appreciating at how big his catalog is and rediscovering songs or giving certain albums a second look. Big's definitely been helped by contemporary rap resembling his stuff more and the ubiquity of guys like Jay constantly reminding people about him, plus there's not as much mythology, really he was just an extremely lovable guy who made some hugely appealing records, whereas people don't really bump any Pac at parties besides "California Love" now it seems like.

You don't live on the west coast.

haha yeah i was gonna mention the regional schism but never got around to it

Yeah, there are at least 5-10 Pac joints that your are liable to hear all the fucking time here.

i think like... after big died and this KING OF NEW YORK thing became a big deal it really made a point out of everyone's reverence to big, and everyone fighting to be big's "successor" kind of kept this story line going forever whereas you never really hear or heard about someone being the next pac or someone taking over "pac's crown" or whatever, i guess probably because dre and snoop and whoever are still around

well, 50 was definitely set up in many ways as the successor of Pac (in a much more deliberate "legacy" sense than Ja Rule just jacking a bunch of Pac moves and everyone noticing pretty quickly), before 50 became way too goofy to think of in those terms.

also i think in this regard, pac's big discography probably hurts him. like big released three albums worth of music and there are maybe two not good songs out of all that, plus duets which is whatever but everyone forgot about it. whereas pac has a huge discography so he has more weak tracks but not maybe more great ones, and he has a bunch of posthumous stuff and also tons of ppl still think he's alive

i think the jay/nas beef had a huge part in inflating big's legacy

yeah definitely. although it's kind of funny to think that at the heigh of that, in 01/02, was the one time when both Jay and Nas both talked up Pac a lot.

im not totally in position to say shit here but the problem i have with pac occasionally is on his "ballads" ("brenda's got a baby" for example) he tends to walk the line between real, heart-wrenching emotion and insipidity, and i'm not sure it always works in his favor. i just never connected with his lyrics in the same way as big, i dunno. also, i'm from new york state, so maybe there's this subconscious bias going on. dude could definitely spit tho

xpost good point j0rdan

pac's negative baggage used to put me off but it kind of insulated him from gettin overplayed like biggie for me. pac, for now.

pac's more important & has had a much longer-lasting impression on rap, just at a sub-critical level, i think.

rappers ive seen ... its like they respect BIG but they wanna be pac.

or something. there's a certain emotional tenor that BIG as a technical peak of the form didnt quite reach. im sure ethan could talk about it better. hes been much more into him than i am. but pac was unafraid to go for that raw emotional gut reading in his lyrics, where BIG always maintained this detached writer's affectation. like for Pac it was a performance, for BIG it was a recitation. the emotion came thru BIG's lyrics, the emotion Pac expressed came through his vocal tenor -- big Scarface influence there -- & yeah it meant sometimes it was more likely to border on mawkish/sentimental, but it also feels like he was taking a bigger risk

i guess right now im more likely to pull out Pac's stuff just because I went through a phase where I was burnt out or something. rev. otm about the death cult stuff. But like someone said there's so little raw Biggie material out there, at a certain point you just cant go any further

i havent decided who im voting for yet. In '94-'95-'96, Pac resonated a lot more to me. then my backpacker phase i was way more into BIG. As much rap as ive listened to Pac just feels more important, but that doesnt mean I like him more. I dunno

or something. there's a certain emotional tenor that BIG as a technical peak of the form didnt quite reach. im sure ethan could talk about it better. hes been much more into him than i am. but pac was unafraid to go for that raw emotional gut reading in his lyrics, where BIG always maintained this detached writer's affectation. like for Pac it was a performance, for BIG it was a recitation. the emotion came thru BIG's lyrics, the emotion Pac expressed came through his vocal tenor -- big Scarface influence there -- & yeah it meant sometimes it was more likely to border on mawkish/sentimental, but it also feels like he was taking a bigger risk

not to go too off topic here but what you say about pac here is what i think of boosie

yeah actually boosie = pac gucci = big is kinda an on point comparison i think

although gucci's got his own thing going on too & his sorta recklessness is very pac like

Biggie, no question.

^^^how it's broken down to an extent

Or, as Ned would put it, "Monsieur Smalls"

Pac for the reasons deej states - I agree with Big as better writer on a technical level (like, easily) but Pac records are, just to set myself up here, more emotionally complex for me - I relate to them. I stand in awe of Big's writing but do I feel like I know him from his lyrics? Not too well. 2Pac manages to really make you feel like he's breaking the fourth wall and showing himself to you. Which is obviously also a performance. Which is completely awesome to me.

but yeah Biggie's gonna walk this poll but but but but if a day comes when you feel like it's enemies everywhere and no hope and everything closing in you, I'll give you odds that All Eyez On Me is gonna be yr joint on that day

Let me go ahead and totally invalidate my opinion. As I have boringly mentioned before, I had a strange upbringing that resulted in being totally disconnected to pop culture until the late 90s. By the time I started paying attention, Biggie and 2pac were both dead. The first music magazine I ever bought was a Spin that was dedicated to Biggie's death, and I was like "who the fuck is that, where's Pink Floyd?"

I mention this because I think that when I listen to them, I don't have any baggage or weird nostalgia to interfere. They were both deserving of all the praise they got and still get, but c'mon, Biggie, no question.

for "Suicidal Thoughts" alone

Deej and J0hn get at what I was saying about not connecting with Biggie. He always seeemed kind of clinical to me.

All my life I been considered as the worst
Lyin to my mother, even stealin out her purse
Crime after crime, from drugs to extortion
I know my mother wished she got a fuckin abortion
She dont even love me like she did when I was younger
Suckin on her chest just to stop my fuckin hunger
I wonder if I died, would tears come to her eyes?
Forgive me for my disrespect, forgive me for my lies

= not clinical

Biggie's poetry is awesome and is some of the best I know! 2Pac manages to convince me that I'm hearing a guy spilling out his blood just so I can feel what he feels. For lack of a better term, it's the realness. That's the difference. Biggie's a master craftsman and a line like "I know my mother wished she got a fuckin' abortion," I wince just like I know the author means me to. That's not anything against the author; it's praise! But with 2Pac, it's like, when he goes off, I feel like "that is an enraged human being. Fuck, I know exactly what that feels like, to be that pissed off and just want to kill everybody within a eight city blocks of you."

Chino XL, fuck you too

Yeah, it's his delivery I find clinical, not his lyrics.

Pac would have totally sold that shit.

yah j0hn and rev ar rasing a good point which is straight up lyrics vs the emotion derived therefrom. idk...on a techincal level it's biggie and thats my answer...maybe i need to spin a pac record in the near future and see if it does anything for me

biggie, cuz he has got a cat in that picture.

srsly though, if tupac has an album as good as "ready to die" i'd love to hear it kthx bye

biggie to beat pac like ike beat tina

I will say the arguments made on this thread have made me dig out All Eyez On Me & Me Against the World again.

btw people mad underrate Strictly 4 My Niggaz

lol my copy of 2pacalypse now is still in the shrink wrap

don't like that one as much but I've always liked how "If My Homey Calls" and "I Ain't Mad at Cha" are takes from the opposite sides of the same situation

Big's not just a better writer he's a better rapper --- rhyme schemes, phrasing, all the offbeat shit and little pregnant pauses --- I like Pac more than I used to, screwed & chopped version of all eyez kind of sold me, dialed down the spaz factor & helped me listen--- but I seriously think the only reason they get mentioned together all the time is cause of the tragedy narrative not cause it's a stumper to figure out who's better. If you really want to weigh things coastally i'd say biggie vs too short is a more balanced match up

& big showed a lot more class during the whole "rivalry" too

I mean a baby screaming for its mother has a lot of emotion in it's voice but I don't want to listen to a record of that shit

I guess prime short dog is several years earlier than biggie though so that's off a little

Too Short vs. Big Daddy Kane?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/HarlemWorld.jpg

ma$e mad underrated motherfucker imo

if yr gonna pick biggie thats cool but i dont get ppl who deny the influence/impact pac has had on the game or try to minimize it -- hes every rapper's ideal rapper pretty much

im going with biggie, for the reasons deej & john said, cuz i value the well-crafted, the smooth, the clinical, the no rough edges

To me it's Pac, easily. Deej and John D.'s post are above are spot on, Pac's sentimentalism and rawness just resonates more with me than Biggie's (undeniable) skills. I'd say the emotional proximity the listeners felt with him is also one of the main reasons why he became a bigger legend than Biggie post-death, even if his legend status has hurt his critical appreciation.

but I reckon this is absolutely about how old you were in 1996.

This is very true. No way did I connect with Biggie more than Pac when I was 16 or 17.

Also, I think Pac simply had one of the best voices in rap. People always pay attention to the lyrics or flow when they're judging rappers, but I think your voice and the way you used it is quite important if you want people to believe what you're saying.

Pac = Elvis
Biggie = Dolly Parton

actually, now that i think of it, Biggie's probably a bit more like George Jones (or Lefty Frizell) in that "I'm a little bit country, and i'm a little bit rock and roll" equation.

Dolly was a better writer (lyricist) than any of them, tho.

Biggie is rap's Nick Drake. 2pac is rap's John Lennon.

2pac

http://www.hgsc.bcm.tmc.edu/downloads/graphics/Bang.jpg

CHALLOPS BOMB

heavens.

& big showed a lot more class during the whole "rivalry" too

part of why I love Pac btw, fuck "class," Pac just put his id on blast

as a staff, as a record label, and as a motherfucking crew

hes every rapper's ideal rapper

Yeah no this is largely true --- I mean the TX and LA shit I listen to the most is much more clearly influenced by pac than big but I'd still just much rather put on z-ro or soulja slim, they're just better rappers with more to say

I think I might be a little irrationally grouchy about pac cause I have this sneaking suspicion that he got biggie killed by being a hotheaded little bitch --- I mean getting his ass shot seems like the logical apotheosis for pac and the best way to consolidate his legacy but big had some more motherfucking records to make

You know, shoot em both and pac gains on biggie legacy-wise --- is this what suge was thinkin before he ordered the first hit?? Who the hell knows.

One thing that's never really explained in endless articles, books, interviews, or even "Notorious" itself is why, during the peak of the East/West wars, Biggie was more concerned with calling out Nas and Jeru on record than Pac.

xp

but big had some more motherfucking records to make

― reacher, Saturday, 21 February 2009 16:40 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I say this with the utmost respect but I really can't imagine an alive BIG in 2009 making any records worth more than a shit.

I mean, really, what would he have done in the past 12 years? He could have been on that Truth Hurts track instead of Rakim, maybe.

lol if Big was alive and making records no matter what they sounded like if you repped for 'em you would get called an old man

haha -- yeah i mean the thing is that the way all the shout was going out of his voice and he was getting progressively more mush-mouthed on the last album, I'm not sure Biggie would've had a ton more great music in him, even if of course I do wish he'd gotten the chance to try. maybe he'd run shit for a straight decade like Jay, or maybe he'd fall off and become irrelevant like so many other superstars, maybe he'd die as young as Big Pun just from his weight.

xpost

Yeah but losing your wind is not such a big deal if your writing and phrasing is sharp --- let the hot air out of pac and there's nothing left ---

Pure imagination but I picture big aging real gracefully

i will give this thread credit for inspiring me to bust out don killuminati: the 7 day theory

let the hot air out of pac and there's nothing left

yeah this is just plain false.

Well it's a small exaggeration, true

i will give this thread credit for inspiring me to bust out disregard don killuminati: the 7 day theory

big hoos no!

^^^

this thread has me playing All Eyez disc 2, God "Can't C Me" kicks off so furious and awesome

that first verse out the gate, how can you love rap & not love that

embarrassing thread, kudos dom xD

big hoos no!

― deej da 5'9 (deej), Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:21 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark

7 day theory is what led me to form my current neg opinion of the dude!! just sounded like homie was rapping his ass off but i couldn't even hear dude cause he was so heavily double-tracked

couldn't comprehend him i mean

i don't have 7 Day Theory but how bad can an album with "Hail Mary" and "Against All Odds" and "Me and My Girlfriend" on it be?

"To Live and Die in L.A." fss

Still voted Biggie cos I think he's formally stronger rapper but I reckon this is absolutely about how old you were in 1996.

I was thinking about this because it's funny, when they died I was 14/15, I knew Tupac as this huge huge star I heard about all the time and I'd seen a lot of his videos...Biggie I hadn't heard much at all when he was alive, although I don't mean that on some "these guys weren't even that famous before they died" shit that some people try to run with, I think the one year of my adolescence that I didn't have MTV was the year Ready To Die dropped so I just kinda missed all those songs. Maybe knowing more Pac singles made it easier for me to get super into Biggie later on when I started getting more heavy into rap in the next few years, though? I don't know.

what does "fss" mean. are you hissing at that song?

ffs*

I knew something looked wrong about that.

for sucks sake

for suge's sake

The r&b/rap station here was pretty much devoid of east coast rap during the mid-90s except for really obv crossover stuff like Naughty By Nature. I'm pretty sure I only heard "Big Poppa" once or twice and nothing else by Biggie prior to "Hypnotize" and "Mo Money Mo Problems" becoming ubiquitous.

It seems weird in retrospect how the narrative around southern rap was that it exploded in the late-90s/early-00s before becoming dominant in the mid-00s, when in the mid-90s I heard way more southern stuff than east coast stuff.

I wonder whether that narrative was pushed more by east coast people who were much more surrounded by east coast rap to begin with, or by southerners who noticed their inroads into that last east coast market when they already took their success in other regions for granted.

while i def was aware of / following biggie in the mid 90s prior to hypnotize hitting i agree w/ al that his profile was a lot lower -- i remember watching the 'juicy' video on the box but pac was EVERYWHERE & was def the most discussed / repped for rapper in my jr. high

bone thugs, too

You were older than I was tho.

Oh yeah, 96 was THE YEAR of Pac and Bone.

yeah Rev I definitely think the narrative around southern rap is a little skewed...it's funny because there are all these older acts considered important now that sold records much more consistently in the 90s, when there was really no media attention on them.

2pac made a few good tracks while biggie sounded like a fat retard on every track /end

inspiring analysis.

If Big is a 10 out of 10 (which he is), then Tupac is a 7.5.

what's Kool Moe Dee's stance on this crucial topic?

biggie for ready to die.
but tupac has a greater no. of good songs.
and a greater no. of good albums.
plus he was more consistent from album to album.

Still aint getting the love for biggie, is it his style or the actual music he's rapping over? im pretty sure if you could get 2pac the rhyme over biggies tracks he'd blow him away.

Damn i sound like a massive 2pac fan but its just the better of 2 evils, personally i always wondered if tupac had a weak voice cos all his tracks seem to have double tracked vocals

most rappers multi-track their vocals these days, Pac might've been one of the first to do it really heavily, though.

that effect was pretty unique when he started doing it.

slim thug prob does it better than anyone else these days.

man, I've listened to biggie more. but not really that much more. plus, this thread is making me want to listen to 2pac.

gonna have to think on this.

and hating on 7 day theory is total madness! the 2nd half (w/less hits) is even stronger to my ears. "life of an outlaw," "krazy," "white man'z world," "hold ya head." love these all so much.

underrated track: "just like daddy". the guitar solo mixed way back in the track reminds me of the classic harmonia/cluster guitar tone!

I'm a Bad Boy killa, Jay-Z die too. Lookin out for Mobb Deep, nigga when I find you.

7 day theory>>>life after death

am surprised at the one-sidedness of this thread tbh. is it all the posthumous stuff that has dragged pac's rep down?

biggies posthumous material is nothing to applaud either.

I love "nasty girl" tho.

the one with 112 and jazze pha? lol yeah i like that too. the best tracks he did post-95 are generally his club/radio songs.

I Get Around + All Eyez On Me + Juice/Gridlock'd v. Possibly the two greatest albums ever + Who Shot Ya + Party and Bullshit + A load of great verses on rnb songs.

Biggie easily. 2pac is good, but nowhere near BIG imo.

(In '96 I was 8 and in Berkshire. It did take me many, many years to realise 'Pac wasn't just shit posthumous albums.)

I don't know if its the posthumous stuff that dragged Pac down or his whole media personality that dragged him UP at the time. Because he was such a strong character with so much to say and with such a circus going on around him it leant the music something which it doesn't have when you listen to it today (except via nostalgia). That's not to do Pac down, but it's just the different nature of the two artists. Biggie has a legacy that's much better represented on records. On the other hand, watch 5 minutes of interview footage with each of them and then it'll be Pac, hands down.

yea, the one on duets.

x-post.

not sure if I agree w/that. john is pretty otm above. there is an anger those pac records that still comes through even now that (most of) the drama is history.

also, all eyez on me is a better double album than LAD.

voted BIG but not gonna pretend it's more than probably just my general preference for east coast/NYC style rap over other regions

yes, and all eyez a better double album than just about any double album!

unfortunately, the old "this could be a great single album if all of the filler got cut" criticism rings for life after death. always felt that way.

but I do think ready to die is stronger as a whole than any single record in 2pac's back catalog. "suicidal thoughts" is one of the great album closers.

hmmm.

and "who shot ya" is one of the all-time most badasssss records too.

even with diddy being a twerp as usual.

7 day theory>>>life after death

― Yellow Carded (titchyschneiderMk2), Monday, February 23, 2009 10:35 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

no

^^^

no, but AEOM >>> LAD

that might be true yeah

i dunno tho LAD is like my favorite rap record ever

AEOM is def better.

and thats not cos i have some old high school memories attached to it (those are for MATW and TRD).

what LAD songs are u hating on

life after death is my fav rap album ever

STFU with the MATW / TRD shit

and dont you mean RTD

FOH with your STFUs LOLz.

if anyone is wondering what biggie would be doing right now, here's a hint, from the xxl piece on LAD

The crazy thing was Big singing. He wanted to do a whole album of ballads. He wanted to call it Big Ballads.

rest in peace but i dont think the world was ready for that

i think passantino should take over that project, could still keep the title of course

"Player Hater" is good for the lolz, but ugh

b.i.g.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

The suspense builds.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

holy shit

Correctamundo!

srs question for big pac fans -- are any of the posthumous albums as good as the ones he made while alive?

cot damn

its a old day

damn, I missed this one. I think I listen more to both these fine fellas now than I did when they were around. god rest their souls.

who doesnt?

Me! Liked Tupac when he was around, never much cared for Biggie, haven't listened to either in a dogs age. This poll makes me want to dig out some Tupac from the old crates.

srs question for big pac fans -- are any of the posthumous albums as good as the ones he made while alive?

Suggest Ban Permalink
― Mr. Hater (some dude), Saturday, February 28, 2009 4:22 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dunno, avoided them. unless you are including 7 Day Theory, in which case, almost

bangin out 2 "me against the world" rite now drink in hand sayin

FUCK
THIS
THREAD

how i break it down

Pac just showed up on OG Ron C's F-Action 54 giving some real sensible advice about how to treat the ladies ---

I was listening to "you're nobody till somebody kills you" the other day thinking, shit, this goes deep & you really can't complain about biggie being dead (even if it does kinda seem like he was done in by a pin-up with a chip on his shoulder re: being gangsta) -----

basically who the hell knows & who am I to rank other mens lives? I take it all back.

didn't realize there was a chopped & screwed version of all eyez but I guess that's not really surprising. listening now.

"no more pain" is serious.

and what, did you vote big or pac

Landslide!

and what, did you vote big or pac

― Cindy Sherman I'm Your #1 Fan (J0hn D.), Thursday, March 5, 2009 10:16 AM (26 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

eazy

This thread...it's like he knew what was coming.

d-damn...

http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/308/1/3/2pac__changes_by_kbirgoren.gif

I think the winner here is p obv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USOe9HQVjUc&feature=player_embedded

i thought they were both pretty good in that clip

i always feel like now people think *actual* freestyling sounds bad, because for so long now "freestyles" have just been kicking written shit on 108 and park over some new hot beat

Yeah, they were. I just thought Biggie was a little bit better.

yeah def, but i guess i was actually surprised by how good pac was, never really figured him for a freestyle type guy

I'm for Pac all day but I think Big completely destroys him in that one, Pac's delivery is great but Big is just next level there

feel like Big's "freestyle" there is more like some verses he had in reserve in case somebody put him on the spot. like "I'd rather make a buck, drive a fat ass truck/grab the nine, two clips and run amok" - if that's freestyling it's fuckin God level, when the camera pulls back you can see Pac laughing with appreciation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gccimMIyu6s

biggie memorized all his shit xp

knew I had heard that 'puttin tags on toes' line somewhere

both their voices sound so amazing on this, i think rap shows probably aren't as good as they used to be because motherfuckers used to YELL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2qaf0UhTY

that is awesome

when pac is ON it's like fuck what is wrong with people who get all caught him in his iconography and the stupid idea of him being overrated because he died or whatever

that vid seriously give me chills

music should have ended when big died

goddamn that video, rappers are so fuckin' lame now

THE RAPPERS THESE DAYS

lol @ u oldie oldersons

Not that you're wrong but still lol.

i'm happy to provide photographic evidence to the court

http://19.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ksxf35SWjS1qzbwkjo1_500.jpg

the prosecution rests

has there been a "1994 in rap" poll yet

here's the (incredible) biggie freestyle from that show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdKbVpNMLdE

trying to find the remix that puts that biggie verse over 'ante up'...

ha those "357 bitches" it's always funny how some references like that are probably total gibberish to a kid listening now

i have that on 12 inch somewhere...is shyheim on that?