Robert Christgau A+ reviews POLL 1967-1990

Al Green - Call Me.

(I have stop voting for Prince eventually)

Can only go with my gut on this one, so I'll pick Another Green World.
Right behind are Moondance, 12 Songs, The Basement Tapes, Wild Gift, Fear and Whiskey and Let It Be.

X - Wild Gift

Tough choice. Both those Firesign records are amazing.

Exile On Main Street

why don't you sit here in the waiting room or wait here in the sitting room

Firesign Theatre: How Can You Be in Two Places at Once When You're Not Anywhere At All [1969, Columbia]

haven't heard this record in 20 years but lines from the nick danger side still roll around in my head

used to have this on vinyl w/ gatefold sleeve, wtf happened to that I wonder

if you don't know firesign theatre they were like an american hippie monty python

DeBarge: In a Special Way [1983, Gordy]

oof I missed that one.

Culture's Two Sevens Clash is from 1977, no? Hence the two sevens.

Jack Johnson

Manfred Mann's Earth Band for me.

Culture's Two Sevens Clash is from 1977, no? Hence the two sevens.

He was reviewing the 1987 Shanachie reissue which may have been the first time the album was available domestically (in the USA). Can anyone confirm?

voted for Eno but the Al Green was a contender.

also,
The Indestructible Beat of Soweto [Shanachie, 1986] <-- overrated
African Connection, Vol. 1: Zaire Choc! [Celluloid, 1988] <-- 2 Used & new from $79.95

canon pickz are boring but I can't get away from this one

The Rolling Stones: Exile on Main Street [1972, Rolling Stones]

Yeah, I keep coming back to that one and Basement Tapes. But I think they're going to split my vote and I'll wind up voting for Don't Crush That Dwarf in the long run.

Ornette

Probably the best album ever from a Western group that never had a Western CD release?

Man, this would have been hard enough if it was only up to 70, or just the 70s, or just the 80s. Still, went with Jack Johnson as a gut reaction because every time I start to scan over the list again I get too caught up with trying to match greats against greats. I mean, Let It Be, Exile, Riot, Dolls…

Wild Honey ftw

Dolls 1st.

Where's the unreleased Pulnoc live tape?

http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/deans89.php

Oh, both New York Dolls' albums got A+?

wow!

Probably the Dolls's debut, though five or six others (Debarge, X, Beasties, Have Moicy!, Fear and Whiskey, Dolls' non-debut, maybe more) are in the running. (Didn't Bob give Graham Parker's Squeezing Out Sparks an A+ at first, though? I guess he lowered the grade on that one later...)

Where's the unreleased Pulnoc live tape?

Yes, who will make me a copy of this? I know it's out there....

Too many of my favorites here, so I'm going with the one that I have played the most often, Sly and The Family Stone - Greatest Hits.

Of Human Feelings (Audio CD - 1998) (IMPORT)
Ornette Coleman

1 new from $145.85 1 used from $50.00

Customer Reviews

By Jacob Bailis (Downers Grove, IL United States)
In music school, I learned about how all music comes from Bach. This music does not come from Bach. This music comes from Ornette Coleman. I prefer it to that Bach stuff. And most other stuff too. Great album cover too.

By weinert "samuel"
this is perhaps the weekest output of coleman. the pieces have a short song format and are polished to easy-listening radio style.* it?s not that the themes are not good, but it?s not prime time?s best afford. listen to "dancing in your head" and "body meta", these are excellent, prime time at its?s best!

* wha???

Nation of Millions

Oh yeah, There's A Riot Goin' On in the running, too, obv. Probably a few others as well.

Wasn't the live Pulnoc CD that came out a few years later the same as that mysterious live tape (which I've never even seen a copy of?) Or maybe not. (Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Xgau gave the CD a slightly lower grade. So probably a different gig.)

oooh, if i can get in on that live Pulnoc that would be sublime! also, since Bob'gau placed One day it will please us to remember even this above Modern Times (A+) on his Deans List, it stands to reason that that NY Dolls is A+, too, no? (the only band with an all A+ catalog).
And somewhere on his website where they talk about mistakes and regrading it mentions that the procol harum was probably intended to be a B+, which i'd agree with.

(the only band with an all A+ catalog)

If you don't count demos and live albums.

Hmmm...Pulnoc all A-'s, according to his site:

http://robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=pulnoc

Right but the tape in question is #1 on his 1989 Pazz.

http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg
I want ya'll to play this at funerals in the hood.
Til all this black on black crime stop.
Some say the blind lead the blind.
But in the ghetto you never know,
When it's gon be yo time.
http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg
[Sons of Funk, Mo B. Dick, O'dell]
Sittin at the ghetto thinkin bout
All my homies passed away (uuunnnggghhh!)
Candy painted cadillacs and triple gold
That's how me and my boys rolled
How could it be?
Somebody took my boy from me
My best friend's gone
And I'm so all alone
I really miss my homies
Even though they gone away
I know you in a better place
And I hope to see ya soon someday
http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg
[Master P]
I used to hang with my boy even slang with my boy
Used to bang with my boy, goddam I miss my boy
We started out youngstas in the park throwin birds
In your hearse, damn it's sad to see my nigga in the dirt
The game got me workin, got me perkin, never jerkin
Still blowin dolja fo ya cause I know you up there workin
Ya little baby's cool and ya baby's mama straight
But today's a sad day to see the t-shirt with ya face
From the cradle to the grave, from the streets we used to fall
In the park you liked to ball, put yo name upon the wall
In the projects you's a legend on the street you was a star
But it's sad to see my homeboy ridin in that black car
A lotta soldiers done died, a lotta mothers done cried
You done took yo piece of the pie but you was too young to retire
Why soldiers ride for yo name leave it vain
Some Gs never change, damn they killed you for some change
Smile for my homie Kevin Miller my boy Randall
The ghetto persons that lost they loved ones to these ghetto scandals
http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg
Take a minute to smile for the dead (uuunnnggghhh!)
Smile for the dead (RIP 2Pac, Makaveli)
All my homies who done made it to the crossroads
(Biggie Smalls)
http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg
[Sons, Mo B. O'dell]
How could it be?
Somebody took my boy from me
(It's like I can't believe you gone)
My best friend's gone
(Sometimes I feel like I can't go on)
And I'm so all alone
(Everytime I see something you done left
I really miss my homies
(It just remind me, more and more of you, dawg)
Even though they gone away
(I just keep reminiscin)
I know you in a better place
(Cause I know you alright)
And I hope to see ya soon someday
(And I keep smilin, knowin I'm a see you in the crossroads]
http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg
[Pimp C]
We used to grip on the grain and flip them candy toys
But I'd give up all that bullshit if I could get back my boy
Off in the club smokin weed til 3, hollerin at the hoes
Spendin $4000 on me on gators and clothes
When I turned to rap, he had to chase the game
Nigga told me, "C, leave that dope, cause rappin is yo thang"
I ain't gone even lie, some nights I ride and cry
Wonderin why the real niggas always the ones to die
So I just smoke my weed and try to clear my mind
I wish that I had the power to turn back the hands of time
I wonder if there's a heaven up there for real Gs
For all the niggas in the game that be sellin keys
I keep my memories, try to keep my head stromg
But baby it's hard to be strong, when yo main homie gone
http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg
[Sons, Mo B. O'dell]
Even though you gone away
(Even though you gone, you ain't never gon be forgotten)
I know you in a better place
(Cause as long as I'm here
You gon live through me and other TRU playas)
I really miss my homies
Even though they gone away
I know you in a better place
And I hope to see ya soon someday
http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg
[Silkk]
I'm just sittin here dazed thinkin bout all the times we had
Thinkin the past, some was good and some was bad
Remember Dante?
It was a group of us, just a group of five
Now three dead, one in jail, it seem right now I'm the only one alive
To all my soldiers before me, may ya'll rest in peace
When He took three, took my soul, just the bodies
He at the crossroads guide us out to the rest of me
Wishin I could rewind time like demos
Me and you gettin girls, writin down numbers like memos
Makin million dollar bets, makin all our money stretch like limos
Even though I smile, it's sad, but they say gangstas can't cry
But if I close my eyes and visualize me together
Then I suddenly wanna smile
To see you laid down when it's yo time, when your time was up
You never seen your child, but he's here to remind us
Even though you was wrong, I never could belive that that was true
You was with me forever, you could check my rest in peace tattoos
See me and C and P forever gon be ridin and thuggin
Rest in peace to all the ones that didn't make it
And rest in peace to my brother
We gon miss you
http://images.lowriderarte.com/drawings/0701_lrap_06_z+drawings+notorious_big.jpg
(I love these fools)
I know you in a better place
(Every time I get on my knees)
And I hope to see ya soon someday
(I pray for you, I'm glad you in a better place
I hope I see ya soon, ain't no more killin
Ain't no more fights, and ain't no more tears)

xpost

Actually, I'm pretty sure someone who posts here now and then has a copy of that Pulnoc tape. Hope s/he sees this thread.....

of human feelings as it's the only one i own!

chose pretzel logic narrowly over let it be

chose pretzel logic narrowly over let it be

xgau has such weird taste. went with another green world, cause I probably listen to that one the most.

i'm voting for Live/Dead

I'll throw a vote to Double Dee and Steinski. Not the best, but easily one of my favorites here.

i'm voting for Live/Dead

2nd Firesign Theatre for me.

also would like to get in on the hot Pulnoc action (assuming anyone's got it, that is).

Oh someone's got it...

Stones, PE or Teh Clash

KJB, IM me!

Marquee Moon for me. It's the one I've listened to the most, I think. Either that or the Neil Young albums. Or the Basement Tapes.

I will NEVER understand the appeal of Firesign Theatre. And what the heck is Robert Cray doing on here???

gotta hear that franco/rochereau album ... is it truly an A+???

The Indestructible Beat of Soweto [Shanachie, 1986] <-- overrated
RONG

I voted Riot.

gotta hear that franco/rochereau album ... is it truly an A+???

it is truly gorgeous!

cool -- looks like it is on emusic, so once my downloads refresh, i'll dl it. and yeah, that soweto comp is not overrated. it has to be one of the best comps ever!

voting Rust Never Sleeps bcz I slighted Powderfinger in the Scott Miller poll...

madonna

That Robert Cray is wonderful. The only one I'd argue with from knowledge rather than ignorance is The Immaculate Collection, which strikes me as overcompensation for underrating the previous albums...

1. Rolling Stones
2. Prince
3. Public Enemy

DeBarge

am i gonna look dumb for asking who DeBarge is?

OK
In a Special Way [Gordy, 1983]
When first I fell in love with the austere lilt and falsetto fantasy they've pinned to plastic here, I thought it was just that I'd finally outgrown the high-energy fixation that's always blocked my emotional access to falsetto ballads. So I went back to Spinners and Blue Magic, Philip Bailey and my man Russell Thompkins Jr., and indeed, they all struck a little deeper--but only, I soon realized, because the superior skill of these kids had opened me up. I know of no pop music more shameless in its pursuit of pure beauty--not emotional (much less intellectual) expression, just voices joining for their own sweet sake, with the subtle Latinized rhythms (like the close harmonies themselves) working to soften odd melodic shapes and strengthen the music's weave. High energy doesn't always manifest itself as speed and volume--sometimes it gets winnowed down to its essence. A+

Take your Omona Wapi $ and use it to love Eldra In A Special Way. What more can I say? Love him now.

I'm torn between Sly & The Family Stone Greatest Hits and After The Gold Rush. I think the Sly record may be better, but I'm more likely to listen to ol' Uncle Neil.

Not that those are the only two possible choices. This is a really tough poll!

Kevin John Bozelka, outdoor_miner, & Ioannis, check yr email...

Robert Cray! His sound was good, back at that time. He was Sade with a guitar! And not female. I had a record he released at some point in the early 1990s and it was not as good. A little less smooth?

Christgau compared it to 12 Songs! It's a good, sometimes great album ("Right Next Door" is marvelous), but c'mon.

was debating between Prince, PE, and Sly's greatest, then saw Miles and west "oh, fuck me"

I refuse to vote here because of Americans' continuing disability to distinguish between "Best Of" albums and proper albums recorded in one go.

That's pig-ignorant. Why withold an A+ release its A+ grade just because it's a best-of?

Because it's cheating. Of course, if you compile your best moments of 10-20 years, no wonder it will be better than just the work of the past year or two. That is obvious. But the songs first and foremost belong in their original albums.

Do you think best-ofs should be illegal or something?

DNFTG

Finding and playing Strong Persuader has had led to the tearful revelation that my woman does not like Robert Cray.

do you blame her? He has..."woman issues."

He's not a strong enough persuader. ;_;

Heavy Picks is the one that winds up in my road trip stack. Forecast calls for pain.

Okay, this doesn't belong here, but neither does Licensed to Ill, probably. I was always a bigger fan of False Accusations, but was glad to see Cray make it big.

London Calling. It was a proper album recorded in one go. Woof!

70s >> 80s on this list. Voting Eno.

unholy modal rounders/michael hurley/jeff fredericks
exile
basment tapes

in that order.

DeBarge, but this list sucks.

and fats domino, shit, this is actually kind of hard.

Sly and the Family Stone's Greatest Hits is different from the usual "Best Of" in that it only covers 3 years or less and has songs that weren't on any other albums, and is best way to hear these songs.

and really as an American, I believe that voting for my favorite Christgau record is a god-given right. I only regret that Singles Going Steady wasn't on the ballot.

wow an A+ foir Robert Cray, i'll put in a vote for Moondance.

Do you think best-ofs should be illegal or something?

No, just left out when you rank albums, because they are more about ranking acts than ranking albums.

huh?

i think Geir is saying that Rank is his favorite Smiths album

Sly and the Family Stone's Greatest Hits is different from the usual "Best Of" in that it only covers 3 years or less and has songs that weren't on any other albums, and is best way to hear these songs.

Of course I am an albums guy and very rockist in that respect, but I feel like "Stand" and "There's a Riot Going On" work best that way - as albums, played from the beginning to the end, because that's the artistic statement that Sly came up with. It may be different with acts from the pre-albums age (pre-"What's Going On" in the case of R&B/soul, pre-"Rubber Soul" in the case of pop/rock) because then an album would usually be just 2-3 hit singles and a bunch of filler (namely pointless cover versions)

Geir is making a pretty reasonable point, if with his usual lack of tact, but y'all are totally just giving him shit because he's Geir

i think Geir is saying that Rank is his favorite Smiths album

No, because I am an albums guy. Plus there are later and better compilations. But objectively, obviously the recent double compilation is a collection of great tracks that you can't argue with. But it was never originally made that way as an artistic statement back then.

No, I just don't understand this sentence: "No, just left out when you rank albums, because they are more about ranking acts than ranking albums."

Are best-ofs ('they"?) "more about" ranking acts than albums?

kind of--i think Geir is kinda right

Dunno, I think if a greatest hits is a wonderful listening experience, you can put it up there with any masterpiece "proper" album ...

No, I just don't understand this sentence: "No, just left out when you rank albums, because they are more about ranking acts than ranking albums."

Are best-ofs ('they"?) "more about" ranking acts than albums?

― The Screaming Lobster of Challops (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, March 6, 2009 11:04 AM (48 minutes ago)

dude come on, he's saying that when you stack up what is assumed to be the nest work of an artist against another, it's therefore implicitly ranking the artists themselves. it's not that hard to understand

the *best* work

so where do multi-artist comps--say Nuggets or The Anthology of American Folk Music--fit in with this Hongrorian vision?

For the love of God, this thread is beginning to annoy me. If you don't like the way the poll is set up, make your own.

...but this list sucks.

Oh come on!

Of course I am an albums guy and very rockist in that respect, but I feel like "Stand" and "There's a Riot Going On" work best that way - as albums, played from the beginning to the end, because that's the artistic statement that Sly came up with. It may be different with acts from the pre-albums age (pre-"What's Going On" in the case of R&B/soul, pre-"Rubber Soul" in the case of pop/rock) because then an album would usually be just 2-3 hit singles and a bunch of filler (namely pointless cover versions)

I agree with the basic idea you are saying here, but I consider Sly's Greatest Hits is one of the exceptions (pre What's Going On, pre Riot)

Every Picture Tells a Story would be a great choice if I hadn't already voted. It's the best start to finish album Rod put out in that amazing stretch he had.

suprised no one else is vocally going for pretzel logic, knowing this board

too. much. good. stuff.

dude come on, he's saying that when you stack up what is assumed to be the nest work of an artist against another, it's therefore implicitly ranking the artists themselves. it's not that hard to understand

― the thick man from the late "imp!" clusterfucks (k3vin k.), Friday, March 6, 2009 11:56 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
the *best* work

― the thick man from the late "imp!" clusterfucks (k3vin k.), Friday, March 6, 2009 11:56 AM (36 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

these are the kind of disappointing typos where at first i think i'm learning some interesting new term like "nest work" and am trying to imagine what it means

i <3 the dan but pretzel logic is a ways down the list as far as my fav albums of theirs

Any canon this diverse is OK by me. I like how the only A+ marks Christgau gave to US acts in the 60's were to Californians -- he was a New York guy right? Nicely non-parochial. Voting Basement Tapes, though Geir's argument against after-the-fact compilations could easily be applied there too.

lol al we can try to make that into a meme if you want

out of curiousity, what is your favorite dan? i think mine definitely is pretzel logic

it's marquee moon ahead of miles and pretzel logic

SD were so consistent that it's hard to rate the albums, but my basic pecking order for the first 7 is like Countdown > Royal Scam > Aja > Pretzel Logic > Can't Buy > Katy Lied > Gaucho

It's between Sly, Miles and the first Dolls LP for me. I'm eliminating Sly's best-of, not to appease Geir but just to make the decision a bit easier for myself. And the Complete Jack Johnson box makes me wish the original was a double album. So, New York Dolls it is. (Xgau's desert island disc, or at least it used to be.)

Springsteen for me.

Riot for me.

Thought on if for a day & went with PE.

Ultimately I had to go with Exile.

I like how the only A+ marks Christgau gave to US acts in the 60's were to Californians -- he was a New York guy right? Nicely non-parochial. Voting Basement Tapes

The 1960s A-pluses above are not an accurate representation mostly because most of his faves never appeared in a Consumer Guide. On rockcritics.com in 2002, he listed his top ten fave 1960s albums and the third VU album was #2 (#3 was The Shirelles who as Jersey girls came close to New York).

And The Basement Tapes is a kinda New York, kinda 1960s album or at least a non-Californian one.

True, though thanks to its quirky history looks like Basement Tapes wasn't A+'d until '75. (How did he rank Great White Wonder?) Glad to hear he gave VU their due, I was wondering about them and the Stooges too.

Dunno, I think if a greatest hits is a wonderful listening experience, you can put it up there with any masterpiece "proper" album ...

But then, you have another dilemma. The chronological vs. fitting listening experience sequence dilemma. "Legend" by Bob Marley is often called one of the best compilations ever. That one is non-chronological, was definitely made after the fact (in fact even after his death), and yet it works as a cohesive album for a lot of people. Maybe because a lot of people didn't really discover his work until with that album. But I still feel like, if you want cohesive artistic statements, the single albums work better the way they were intended back then. And if you are to have a career overview, which, to me, a "best of" is supposed to be, then I would have preferred it to be strictly chronological.

True, though thanks to its quirky history looks like Basement Tapes wasn't A+'d until '75. (How did he rank Great White Wonder?)

He's on record as being basically uninterested in bootlegs, so I don't think he reviewed it. (I'm sure his play-everything ethos kept him away from boots as well: not more to listen to.)

I actually understand Geir's rule to the point of sympathizing a little, but it's just about impossible for me at this point to feel like there's such a thing as a "pure" listening experience. Everything is informed by everything else. I remember being disappointed by Smokey Robinson & the Miracles' Greatest Hits Vol. II, a big '60s-crit fave, because the sequencing seemed wonky. It is wonky, but it's the kind of wonky you can grow to love, as I did. If they'd just arranged it chronologically the same thing might have happened, but at this point it's that object I got into, and those songs in that way imprinted themselves on me in a unique way. But ultimately, albums are performances collected after the fact; thus, compilations are albums. Even if it means votes get divided in polls amongst multiple collections mining the same basic terrain, all available at the same time.

I take issue with a couple of Geir's points. First, that the "Greatest Hits" is by definition the artist's best work all collected in one place: Leaving aside the subtlety of certain songs sounding better in one context vs. another, I doubt any two fans would ever agree on the top 10 or 12 best songs of any artist, and some may prefer the non-hit material on a given album better than some songs that were hits from others. Second, that only albums are "pure" expressions of the artist's intention: I think this is a rule probably honored more in the breach. Besides those objections, I think that the best way to rate albums is as albums. It may seem a technical quibble to allow a best-of compilation assembled by a record label, but not a best-of CD-R assembled by me, and perhaps it's that sort of consideration that leads Geir to only want to consider albums that are somehow blessed by the artist's intention (however numinous said blessing may be as a matter of historical fact), but we need some ground rules in any contest of this kind, so I'm okay with that boundary, however arbitrary it may be.

Franco & Rochereau is really ace, for any of you who aren't afraid of afropop

i'm gonna vote for the tom ze, just because he seemed like such a lost figure when i found that comp and so much of his stuff is incredible. my combined love for the four ze LPS i've been able to track down and hear is equal to my love for anything else here.

It may seem a technical quibble to allow a best-of compilation assembled by a record label, but not a best-of CD-R assembled by me, and perhaps it's that sort of consideration that leads Geir to only want to consider albums that are somehow blessed by the artist's intention (however numinous said blessing may be as a matter of historical fact), but we need some ground rules in any contest of this kind, so I'm okay with that boundary, however arbitrary it may be.

Of course the ground rule here is Cristgau's A+ albums. And that is fair enough in a way, at least it is fair enough that he has sometimes reviewed compilations and given them the deserved grade (which, in most cases, will be better than, if not all, at least most of that act's original albums).
And of course you may argue that a "Best Of" isn't always the artist's best work, but at least it is the most popular work of that act, which means the work that the man on the street considers to be that act's best. (Or maybe what record company A&R's considered their best - as after all most of them consist of what the record company chose to release as singles, and not much more)

So it's mainly a matter of what is being picked in a poll. And at least for me, it is hard to pick. Personally, I would choose to ignore all the "Best Of"s here, and even though Cristgau's taste is very far from my own, there are still enough gems to choose from. But I still don't feel it's fair, because after-the-fact albums will eventually get a lot of votes.

In the end, I ended up voting for "Pretzel Logic" though. Btw. that DeBarge album is probably ace but I have gotten no chance to hear it, and I doubt I ever will. Unless Motown listen to my prayers (and Cristgau's, I presume?) and release it on CD as part of their 2009 anniversary.

Btw. generally, when you compile a lot of amazing songs, you will usually have a great compilation, but I do have issues with "The Immaculate Collection" and I always will. Not so much the songs, because you cannot argue with them (well, except she should have skipped those two new ones at the end and had "True Blue" and "Who's That Girl" in there instead), but I strongly dislike the fact that she had to remix them. Instead we should have gotten the 7 inch versions, sounding exactly like they did on singles.

For instance, I believe the 7 inch edit of "True Blue" (OK, I know it's wasn't on "Immaculate Collection" at all) has never been released on CD. And it sounded considerably different from the album version, as you can hear from the extended version presented as a bonus track on the remastered album.

Btw. that DeBarge album is probably ace but I have gotten no chance to hear it, and I doubt I ever will. Unless Motown listen to my prayers (and Cristgau's, I presume?) and release it on CD as part of their 2009 anniversary.

It's been released several times on CD, on its own and coupled with All This Love.

it's also on itunes music store

It seems my local CD shop (I refuse to buy electronic files - I want physical CDs that I can actually hold and look at, and play directly in my portable CD player) offers "All This Love", but apparently paired with nothing at all. Otherwise, just a lot of "Best Of" compilations.

My online CD shop, I mean. Perhaps Amazon has more.

my portable CD player

old skool

Yep, I prefer to listen to stuff in proper sound quality, not compressed. I also prefer not having to spend an hour creating mp3 files and trasferring to the mp3 player everytime I want to listen to something.

U Never Sleeps

He's on record as being basically uninterested in bootlegs

Except when he is. (See: Pulnoc, Lil Wayne, Eminem and uh, Double Dee and Steinski for instance -- if not "bootlegs" per se', at least "music that was never actually released".)

He's also a big fan of Rough Guide collections.

wow, four acts (one of them, Lil Wayne, certainly did release his mixtapes) in four decades! not the most convincing argument.

I take issue with a couple of Geir's points

^^can this be the new ILM tagline please

loll ya

four acts...in four decades! not the most convincing argument

Not an argument at all, in fact. Just saying there have been exceptions -- And Bob seems to be more open to hip-hop ones (there have been others too, which Bob's taken to labeling "purloined datadiscs" in consumer guides and dean's lists) than he used to be for rock ones. So, in a sense, his old aversion to bootlegs may have somewhat fallen by the wayside as distinctions have become murkier over the years.

But they're not bootlegs! Bootlegs = unauthorized. Hip-hop mixtapes are authorized.

You're splitting hairs, I think. Grateful Dead (to name one obvious example) have certainly authorized live boots over the years, and there have been hip-hop collections (say, Eminem's Fucking Yzarc) that don't seem to be put together with the artist's specific approval. But yeah, "unofficial" hip-hop releases do seem to be more authorized, in general, than rock ones used to be. (Which is why I said "murkier." Though promo-only "releases" like, say, that early Blue Oyster Cult live EP, or Elvis Costello's Live At El Mocambo -- the latter once widely available in record stores -- suggest the murk has maybe been around longer than folks realize. I'm no kind of bootleg fan myself, though -- not a obsessive mixtape fan, either -- so I expect somebody else could speak to this better than I can.)

Fwiw, also fairly sure Xgau has consumer-guided a few Sublime Frequencies sets, which don't seem much more legit than rock boots have historically been.

Yeah he reviewed Group Inerane in January. He also reviewed Postwar Jazz: An Arbitrary Roadmap which is definitely a bootleg if "bootleg" does indeed mean "unauthorized." Also The Best Bootlegs in the World Ever. Check here for the rest of the No Label releases.

More puzzling than including comps and excluding bootlegs was his longtime policy of not including imports among the regular releases. (Might've made a kind of sense back in the '70s when imports were less readily available to the average consumer who didn't live near one of the big urban centres.)

not to derail the thread, but does anyone know how I can get a copy of that Postwar Jazz: An Arbitrary Roadmap thing?

Yes, message me.

Or email me via ilx.

xp Also, to derail even more -- I've been under the impression that, in the course of hip-hop history, legit/authorized mixtapes are actually a fairly recent development. Always figured that the first CD mixes (attributed to DJs more than rappers) never bothered to obtain permissions for the songs they used. And I totally understand that they were considered excellent promotion items so the artists (current ones at least) didn't generally tend to object. But even then, I'm fairly certain they weren't always "authorized," and certainly not when defunct artists were included (I have one from a few years ago that's entirely late '80s/early '90s hip-house for instance.) And of course some of the very first rap album releases (early '80s) were live-show bootlegs (those Disco-O-Wax Cut Creators ones for instance.) And live tapes (on actual cassettes) appeared before any rap was even on vinyl.

But right, Xgau seems to have become more interested in grading them as they've become authorized. Still think the mixtape/boot distinction is way less black and white than Michaelangelo is suggesting.

longtime policy of not including imports among the regular releases

??? Not sure what this means. He's consumer-guided and Dean's-listed plenty of imports over the years. (Can see how it may have been his "policy" in the '70s, but haven't noticed it being one since.)

(Well, Myonga did say "was" -- past tense. But the post seems to imply the policy lasted past the '70s, which I really don't think it did, more than a year or two.)

(Pretty sure import LPs became Pazz & Jop eligible in 1980, when Joy Division and Young Marble Giants made the P&J Top 40; singles a year before that.)

LIVE AT THE OAKLAND COLISEUM
Dagger/Experience Hendrix, 1998

This competent unauthorized mono recording of an April 1969 concert has now been certified by Experience Hendrix's majordomo, Jimi's step-sister Janie Hendrix, whom he barely knew. It's a bootleg, it sounds like one and it's expressly "not intended for the casual fan." Big deals: 18-minute workout on "Voodoo Child (Slight Return)" and, heart be still, a guest shot by Jefferson Airplane's Jack Casady.

Kevin: check yr email.

wow i'm sort of surprised by all the prince votes, that record seems like a stretch for even top 10 on this list.

hmm, he did upgrade it from the original A grade, true.

Also there's that collection based on Jonathan Lethem's book. Has anyone tracked that one down?

(Pretty sure import LPs became Pazz & Jop eligible in 1980, when Joy Division and Young Marble Giants made the P&J Top 40; singles a year before that.)

That may be about right - he reviewed Second Edition rather than Metal Box, as well as the '79 American version of The Clash rather than the original.

Also, he didn't overlook imports entirely - just tended to segregate 'em in "Additional Consumer News" rather than assigning a letter grade. Which was kinda odd in itself.

also of interest (to freaks like me, obv) are the albums he initially graded A+ only to downgrade them at a latter point in time.

off the top of my head:

Who's Next -> A
The Joy of Cooking -> "
Plastic Ono Band -> "
The Blue Mask -> "
Juju Music -> A-

Or the records that are A's or A+'s by inference, like the infamous "one with the orange cover":

The Message [Sunny Alade, 1981]
All I know about Adé is that he's the (or a) king of Nigerian juju. His voice is gentle, his rhythm insinuating and very poly, his guitar graceful and faintly Hawaiian. Also, he comes up with good hooks--"Ma J'Aiye Oni" was on my interior jukebox for weeks. I play this a lot, and even at that don't think it matches the one with the orange cover that I lost at Charing Cross six weeks ago. When I went back to buy a second copy at Stern's, 126 Tottenham Court Road, London WI, I was told I'd never see it again and advised to plunk down another six quid for this substitute. I'm glad I did, but anyone who knows where I can find the one with the orange cover please advise. A

And Pamelo Mounk'a's Propulsion! (which I have, btw):

Pamelo Mounk'a: In the fall of 1982 my friend Sue Stewart took me to an African disco in Soho, London. The DJ played five or six songs that sounded real fine, then put on something by this Congo-Brazzaville soukous veteran, I know not what. I jumped, I raved, I gibbered. Six months later Sue brought me a copy of Mounk'a's Propulsion!, on French Sonics, thirty-plus minutes of soukous whose understated floodtide grew into my groove record of the year. Utilizing my scanty research facilities, I determined that Mounk'a's most famous song was the niftily entitled "L'Argent Appelle l'Argent," with an album of the same name attached. I never found it, to my knowledge never even heard it: never saw Propulsion! anywhere else either. I did eventually locate something called 20 ans de carrière, and bought it against the advice of Ronnie Graham's Da Capo Guide to Contemporary African Music. Graham was right. If you run across Propulsion!, scarf it up. And if you find "L'Argent Appelle l'Argent," tape one for me.

he reviewed PiL's Paris au Printemps in the CG (1980).

xps

i think i may have that King Sunny Ade orange cover one. my copy is simply titled King Sunny Ade and the African Beats c. 1980 on Ade's own label. i'll check if i can find a jpg of it anywhere.

Most of these are worthy of their plus; not sure about Paul Simon, Let It Be or Pretzel Logic (the last just because, despite many good songs, it seemed a little spare vs. sparse after prev albums) Pulnoc Live At PS 122 is great, but I don't have any way to digitize the cassette, sorry.

Firesign could have some deep co-ordinates (they wanted to make comedy records that were like prime time Dylan x Pynchon smoking the Golden Age of Radio and early TV, seemed like), but also plenty of yuks up front, sonically as much as in writing--they weren't just conceptualists, they were moonlighting media pros, like Steinski.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

don otm re: Firesign Theatre. also, agree that Let it Be (and maybe Paul Simon) ought to be docked a notch. but no way in hell is Pretzel Logic anything less than A+.

Of all the sets here, the one I could put on any time and get lost in it: the Bo Diddly Chess Box. A portrait that gets beyond the caricature.

yeah, that Bo set was a revelation back when. i'm still kinda partial to the Got My Own Bag of Tricks comp from '72 or so, tho.

So the most marginal album on the list is clearly the Crenshaw, right? (Would have said it was tied with the Cray, but people have already defended that one here, which means Crenshaw wins. Though people are guaranteed to defend him now, I bet.) (Not that I have anything against him. He's okay, I guess.)

Field Day is great. other albums are greater. that is all.

albums he initially graded A+ only to downgrade them at a latter point

Squeezing Out Sparks (which I'll take over Field Day anyday) goes from A+ to A in the '70s guide.

actually, i'd say In a Special Way is way more marginal. i mean, at least Field Day was good for some kinda stupid purist ("the drums are, like, too loud, man") controversy back when.

xp

tru, but u rong about it being better.

only two on the list i've never laid eyes on/heard:

Delaney & Bonnie: The Original Delaney & Bonnie [1969, Elektra]

Ray Charles: A 25th Anniversary in Show Business Salute to Ray Charles [1971, ABC]

I slsk'ed the D&B the other day inspired by this thread -- apparently it's commonly known now as Accept No Substitute...? Anyway, it's really really good. Searching for Ray Charles Anniversary just gets the 50th Anniversary collection from 1997. The 25th Anniversary album seems to have passed from human memory.

that's cool about the D&B.

So the most marginal album on the list is clearly the Crenshaw, right?

Have you heard that Procol Harum - A Salty Dog? there is no way i see that being more than a middling A minus...
imo, the original D&B is a solid A, no plus. the recent re-ish of field day sounds much better than the original vinyl. the production is still what it is, but the songs make it at least an A.

yeah, but the Procal Harum album is generally acknowledged to be their masterpiece, no? hence: nothing marginal about that shit. who acknowledges In a Special Way, other than a handful of Xgau luvin' nerds, that is? D&B have seemingly disappeared from history, tho. i think they've been generally referred to as "Eric Clapton", lo these past 35 years or so.

Nonetheless, Joe Yanosik reports that Christgau would have made several grade changes, including: Procul Harum, A Salty Dog (A+ in 1969), "a mistake," probably B+; Neil Young, Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere (B+ in 1969); Fugs, Golden Filth (B+ in 1970), should be high A-; Holy Modal Rounders, Last Round (B+ in 1979), should be high A- or possibly A; Mission of Burma, Vs. (B+ in 1982), and Mission of Burma (B in 1988), should be A-; My Bloody Valentine, Isn't Anything (1988), missed, could be A.

http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/list/issues.php

who acknowledges In a Special Way, other than a handful of Xgau luvin' nerds

2Pac
Biggie
Mariah Carey
Ashanti
Mary J. Blige
Boyz II Men
Blackstreet
Janelle Monae
others

Who acknowledges Field Day, other than a handful of powerpop nerds? (Not a sarcastic question; I'd really like to know. At least Debarge's album had a top 20 hit on it -- Crenshaw never got higher than #36, and that was with a song off his previous album. And at least Debarge's album is a definitive example of something.)

well yeah, guys, i love it too, obv. all i meant was that the album is essentially a non-entity insofar as the wonderful world of pop music criticism is concerned. the primary exception(s) being Xgau (and his acolytes), of course. Field Day--love it or loathe it--at least has a rep amongst many mainstream music crits (or it did back in the '80s, anyhow).

As in: It finished a staggering #29 in Pazz & Jop, 14 places below Big Country's The Crossing and (here's the punchline) one place below Graham Parker's immortal The Real McCaw.

I bet lots of the people who voted for it were Xgau acolytes, too. (If not for them, it surely would have finished below 34th-place Trio And Error, as it should have.)

no, Chuck, i meant it has a rep as being the disappointing follow-up album to the widely-praised Crenshaw debut. sheesh.

*for being, rather.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Culture mafia is gonna getchyall

I'd have voted for Field Day if not for Prince, Chuck.

sorry--if not for Riot, followed by Sign. THEN Field Day. it was my favorite record in high school.

Thanks for the Field Day discussion, guys. I'm going to dig it up and relisten (Crenshaw's always been a blind spot).

My high school crush was Crowded House. They and Crenshaw have nothing in common besides guitars and concision, but I mean this as an example of how these touchstones cross over.

kinda curious about G-Man, though no one repped for it. Is it great?

Still wonder what the Crenshaw-influenced-artist equivalent of KJB's Debarge-influenced-artist list might be. Is he considered, say, a major inspiration for alt-country? Certain emo bands? Spoon? Who?

And G-Man is definitely real good, yeah.

Crenshaw's done some songwriting with/for some of AAA '90s bands--I think he cowrote the Gin Blossoms' "Found Out About You," for example. So probably that stuff if anything. But I don't care if he influenced anyone or not, I still love Field Day to pieces.

i was the ONLY hurley/unholy modals vote???

I kind of regret not voting Have Moicy! instead of the Dolls' debut, actually.

good grief, what a turnout! one question: where'd all the Fear and Whiskey votes come from? it's def in my top five of the above listed.

oh, and, Chuck: do i remember correctly that you once gave G-man a C+? (i'd like to think that it was payback for Christgau giving AC/DC's Blow Up Your Video a C+ back then. but i'm likely just imagining tales of rock-crit-beef-past again, right?)

Ha ha, I think I rock-a-rama'd G-Man in Creem (probably expressing mixed feelings), but don't think there was a letter grade involved.

Crenshaw's done some songwriting with/for some of AAA '90s bands--I think he cowrote the Gin Blossoms' "Found Out About You," for example.

"Til I Hear It From You," methinks.

hmm, it could be. i honestly thought it was something you wrote for the Voice, tho.

xp

Nah -- Pretty sure the only jazz I ever reviewed for the Voice was Ronald Shannon Jackson once. (And I've never done a graded consumer guide anywhere.) So maybe it was somebody else?

doubt it. i don't think it was a CG kinda thing, more like a Xgau loves Sonny and hates AC/DC sorta thing. so, in retaliation, you do a quick CG-type review of G-Man and proclaim it as being no better than a C+). probably was in Creem, tho--i forgot that i was buying that rag right up to the bitter end--now that i think of it. (is any of that Rock-a-Rama stuff online? shit was pretty funny.)

So someone out there does have the Pulnoc unreleased tape in digital form? ... any information on it is much appreciated ... holy grail for Christgau fans (and Pulnoc fans, too, I'm sure!) -- many thanks!

Of Human Feelings needs a nice reissue, similar to what was done for Song X.

Thelonious Monk's Mysterioso is Christgau's A++++.

was Freedy Johnston's Can You Fly? ever an A+ album? I read somewhere that Xgau called it "perfect"...

Yup

yeah, it's his fave for '92.

xp

^...which is another album i feel would be better served minus the +, fwiw.

btw, if anyone wants/needs a copy of Egon Bondy's Happy Hearts Club Banned, give me a shout.

So someone out there does have the Pulnoc unreleased tape in digital form? ... any information on it is much appreciated ... holy grail for Christgau fans (and Pulnoc fans, too, I'm sure!) -- many thanks!

not yet, but working on it.

I love how the Television voters (like myself) were a silent majority. Won the poll, barely mentioned on the thread.

Marquee Moon is pretty unfuckwithable -- out of all those records, it seems like the most "perfect" to me. it's interesting to me that it got that A+ Christgau review, the rave from Nick Kent, but (as far as I know) didn't really make much of a commercial breakthrough ... I guess it was more popular in Europe?

How much of a dent did Television make in Europe? (In the U.S., neither album even charted in the Top 200, which doesn't strike me as particularly surprising. Verlaine's Dreamtime did reach #177 in 1981, however.)

Not that it's definitive, but via Wikipedia: "Television's first album Marquee Moon was received positively by music critics and audiences, despite failing to go near the Billboard Top 200 - though it sold well in Europe and reached the Top 30 in many countries there."

28 Television Marquee Moon Album Mar 1977
30 Television Marquee Moon Single Apr 1977
25 Television Prove It Single Jul 1977
36 Television Foxhole Single Apr 1978
7 Television Adventure Album Apr 1978

The UK. "Glory", the single, did not chart. Mind you, if they'd issued a 12" version, it might well have been their biggest hit.

might've gone Fear & Whiskey over Sign o' the Times

yeah, Television was real popular in England. I almost voted for G-Man, too. but I dunno, it's great, Rollins is fantastic. but I notice that Christgau also gave A plus to another jazz record in the '90s, David Murray's Shakill's Warrior. which is a very fine record indeed. probably, his point on both is that these are records that are "jazz" but which would appeal to "rock and rollers" or whoever. interesting.

as for Field Day, I make no claims for the universality of power-pop, actually, but this is in my power-pop-nerd opinion one of the three or four definitive examples of same. Christgau's point here was that production values can expand the music in ways that aren't always perfect, predictable. in this case, that happens; aesthetically, it's kind of a weird record because it sounds hollowed-out in a way, but the songs are really immediate. but def a bringdown to some, after the perfection of Crenshaw's first record.

I guess it isn't that universal--a boy and his guitar and his record collection, dreaming of looking up some skirts in Manhattan--but if there ever was an A plus record, Field Day is it. probably he did influence some alt-country folks--students of "classic songwriting"--but Crenshaw as a writer and as guitarist is in a class of his own, in my opinion. and I would say that most people who are fans of Crenshaw like Freedy Johnston, too, and while I think my choice (Manfred Mann's Earth Band) is suitably semipopular in a discussion of Christgau, the best record on that list is probably Jack Johnson. no words to fuck anybody up, except at the very end.

yeah, damn poll suffered from an embarrassment of riches; Culture et al gettin' the goose egg.

so who's staring the '90s poll?

I voted for Field Day and stand by it.

Some people bow before Jesus Christ. I bow before Thus Sang Freud.

preach it, brutha!!!

Yours is coming soon. Big delay cuz none of the tracks have titles. Will rectify soon.

what u mean, Kevin? i got mine today! (am planning to upload sometime tomorrow, hopefully.)

no, the thing I promised YOU

hah--just realized that's what you meant. that's awesome, dude! no worries on my end--whenever you get a chance; i'm not in a hurry.

Sundar: i'll try uploading Egon Bondy's tomorrow as well.

I'm blushing, here.

here's a link for EBHHCB, for anyone that wants it:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=UmNLb3BBNDRVVGxFQlE9PQ

Pulnoc pt 1:

https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=UmNLb3BHcWZWRDlFQlE9PQ

and pt 2:

https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=UmNLb3BESEJEa1d4dnc9PQ

here's the full track list:

Disc 1

Intro
Podivna Je Podivna
Nikde Nikdo
Konorek
Dopis
Je To Nebezpecny
Pisen Pro Nico

Disc 2

Tygr
Pulnoc
All Tomorrow's Parties
Magicke Noci
New York City
Huchu Zlalej
Kniha Noci (partial)

X'gau was right about this Pulnoc! and You guys dRULE! the only pulnoc i'd heard before was city of hysteria and it's good, but a little "slick" sounding. this is powerful stuff

yeah, i agree (about Hysteria vs. Live, that is. although, yes, it is also true that i do drule on occasion.) ;^)

"marquee moon" #1? but that is the dullest guitar noodling around, in the guitar wank department it is worse than the worst jazz-rock. and "london calling" at #3 is the most average punk album imaginable. two records for the bin.

I'll take them if you don't want them

Good idea. Is that the official live Pulnoc, or the xgau tape (which I've got, but with no titles)?

Xgau tape.

Arrggh! For some reason, I dl'ed the first part of the Pulnoc Live at P.S. 122 tape but not the second part. When I went to link above o get the second part, it had expired. Is there any way that anyone at all could re-up the 2nd part? Please, please, please!

Hysteria vs. Live

Hysteria [Mercury, 1987]
You know about the music, and if you don't think you'll like it you won't: impeccable pop metal of no discernible content, it will inspire active interest only in AOR programmers and the several million addicts of the genre. In short, it's product--but as product, significant, because it's product for the CD age. Stuck with over an hour of material after four years (after all, could twelve songs be any shorter?), they elected to put it all on one disc because as technocrats they instinctively conceive for formats that can accommodate an hour of music: cassettes, which now outsell vinyl discs, and CDs, which outdollar them. The cassette sound is a little too dim, as commercial cassette sound usually is, and though I sometimes find myself preferring the depth of the vinyl once I've turned my amp up to six or seven, the clarity of the CD gets more and more decisive as the needle approaches the outgroove. I mean, I have trouble perceiving these guys as human beings under ideal circumstances. Not docked a notch because at least they didn't pad it into a double. C

Throwing Copper [Radioactive, 1994]
On stage, this intently mediocre young band is U2 without a guitar sound. On record, it's R.E.M. without songs. Fittingly, it generates the "idealistic" arena-rock U2 is no longer hungry enough to bother with and R.E.M never had the stomach to work up. Only with the old guys I wouldn't put the saving word in quotes. C+

are we doing 1991-present?

would vote

here ya go KMS:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/s2g9c4

haha--Chuck otm.

Thank you, Ioannis. To quote Michael Scott: you sir are a gentleman and a scholar...