Women in Rock: Patti Smith vs Joan Jett

Patti is more "important" but also an annoying hippie

Both only made one essential album, but Joan has the edge because her singles comp has one amazing song after the others. Also: Joan has better taste in covers.

*after the other

I never got much into "Horses", but I got the 2CD version (£5 fopp) with the 'live' 20yr anniversary version, and finally 'got' it from that version.

I love joan jett as much as any other redblooded american boy but this is like comparing a great comic book and a great novel novel.... I mean I like comic books but c'mon

patti's comeback in the late 90s was a thing of fury and wonder

There's that 5CD box set you can get at Fopp or HMV for £15, it's the first five albums (Horses->Dream of Life). Still haven't played it yet.

I like Smith a lot, and will vouch for Gone Again too, but there's lots of comic book elements in her vision of life – like her Fountainhead-esque obsession with Men in Power.

Joan has more good songs

Horses is really the only one I like.

Easily Joan Jett for me - the Runaways, Bad Reputation, I Love Rock'n'Roll, OK after that gets a bit patchy but I'd take the first 5 JJ albums over the first 5 Patti Smith.

the only thing that has ever mattered to me about Patti Smith is her performance of "Gloria" on the first season of SNL. Beyond that, bleh.

is Patti Smith really "important"? I mean, important to who? (besides Richard Ashcroft)...?

Also: Joan has better taste in covers.

this is my fave JJ moment:

after decades of punk and riot grrls it's easy to overlook how important she was at the time, as a role model for women in rock in the 70s she was huge, unprecedented

no makeup, no hairspray, no singing pretty, total attitude, and not some minor musical footnote, she was a star on her own terms

xp to shakey

This should be interesting, if you're interested in this type of thing.

My feelings exactly.

Patti wins here hands down. And yes, she's very "important" in the history of rock music. That doesn't make her very much fun, though. Her problem is she can sometime bang you over the head with her importance. Also, she writes too many songs about dead people.

But the best parts of Horses are as good as music gets.

if the poll is "who is more fun" patti will not win
if the poll is "who is weirder" joan will not win
if the poll is "who is cooler" it is a draw

this is honestly one of the better false dichotomy polls i've seen on here lately. i'm actually kinda stumped as to who i want to vote for.

after decades of punk and riot grrls it's easy to overlook how important she was at the time

surely there's more Joan Jett in riot grrl than there is Patti Smith...? Patti was SO obsessed with famous men, for one thing.

(speaking of which, the Evil Stig album that Joan Jett did with the Gits is a total lost riot grrl classic)

no makeup, no hairspray, no singing pretty, total attitude

I can't stand her but certainly this could be said of Janis Joplin

also isn't part of being a "role model" having a following? What other women were there in the 70s that followed Patti Smith's example? I can't think of any.

"Dancing Barefoot" is one of my favorite songs.

the thing is you don't have to be all "patti smith is deep" to think she wins. you just have to have heard "pumping (my heart)".

but yeah "importance" weighs against you on ilchallops here so joan jett's gonna walk this

What the fuck? Would anyone ever start a poll called something like MEN IN ROCK: Neil Young vs. Bono with two artists totally unrelated except for their gender?

oh come on these two aren't "totally unrelated"

BONO v. STING

I agree, "Dancing Barefoot" is great. I've only seen Patti once at the Hoboken Street Festival when it was about 99 fuckin' degrees, and she was fine. But Ronnie Spector preceded and gave me gooseflesh w/ "Be My Baby."

apparently going to play Joan in the Runaways movie:

http://italy.imdb.com/name/nm0829576/

Bruce Springsteen vs. Neil Young

i guess it's time for the Bono v. Neil Young poll-off

for the slow kids, the 'women in rock' bit was a way of deflecting charges of sexism by using mild humour.

Joan. Not even close.

haha

Shakey & Kate are bringing me the OTM LOLs on this thread...

Morbs, this is an order of magnitude worse -

Dakota Fanning ... Cheri Currie

Can we arrange to have this movie stopped, now?

Dakota Fanning ... Cheri Currie

hahahaha waht

DF's badgirl to be unleashed

I'm amused that you guys didn't object to Billy "Cheekbones" Crudup playing pudgy J Edgar Hoover.

? when did that happen?

I'd love Billy Crudup to play my husband.

http://www.kennethackerman.com/images/hoovercover.jpg

yeah how dare music fans on a music msg board thread about a musician object to casting decisions in a biopic about said musician but remain completely silent on the topic of every other questionable casting decision in every other upcoming feature film.

except some people on this thread are on every horseshit Michael Mann thread.

whatever happened to Frodo as Iggy?

does somebody wanna bear out the comparison for us dumbfucks who don't see any similarities between these two other than "they're both women who came up at roughly the same time" and maybe "it'll really BLOW THE CANON'S MIND if I go for JJ"

most posters on this message board have brought themselves to orgasm thinking about one, or both, of these artists

would be my guess at the comparison

If there was a list of seventies female rock band leaders that were associated with the punk movement, who else would be on it?

Helen Wheels?

penelope houston

J0hn, it was started by a future 51er

does somebody wanna bear out the comparison for us dumbfucks who don't see any similarities between these two other than "they're both women who came up at roughly the same time"

This position assumes that there is no significance to the fact that women comprise a minority voice in rock, particularly in the 70s. If you don't think that's significant, any other complaints about any underlying sexism in the comparison is kinda uh waht. This seems pretty obvious to me. That they are both women who rose to prominence around the same time in what was a predominately sexist environment not prone to giving women much creative space is significant. If you want similarities between their specific bodies of work I don't think those are very hard to draw either - both recontextualized traditionally male rock personas and material (ie, Gloria vs. I Love Rock n Roll), both played up androgyny (Patti in a shirt and tie vs. Joan Jett's lesbianism and lolz cover of Replacements' "Androgynous"), both were interested in hard rock sounds, etc.

iow stfu

and yeah as mentioned both are punk icons (Patti for the artier punks and CBGBs folks, Joan Jett for the riot grrls)

seriously the "omg are you just pointing out that they're WOMEN?!" complaint is so weird. do you not think gender is significant? that gender doesn't inform a body of work or play a critical role in how artists present themselves or how they are perceived, received, marketed, whatever?

Patti is incredible, easy poll from where I sit.

Joan Jett EVERY. DAMN. TIME.

"it'll really BLOW THE CANON'S MIND if I go for JJ"

Does somebody wanna provide evidence that anybody prefers Joan for this reason for us dumbfucks who just think she's made way more good records?

any two members of an underrepresented population make for good comparisons by virue of their underrepresentation, shakey mo? iow NO U

most posters on this message board have brought themselves to orgasm thinking about one, or both, of these artists

yeah, sure, all the time

Does somebody wanna provide evidence that anybody prefers Joan for this reason for us dumbfucks who just think she's made way more good records?\\

sure

the only thing that has ever mattered to me about Patti Smith is her performance of "Gloria" on the first season of SNL. Beyond that, bleh.

CHALLENGING OPINIONS

any two members of an underrepresented population make for good comparisons by virue of their underrepresentation

sure, why not? You ask what they have in common. Well, they both belong an underrepresented population (which leads to questions about why this population is underrepresented, and how/whether that informs the artists' work, etc.) Why is this not legitimate.

http://www.lvhrd.org/wp-content/images/575x350/20080219_015704.jpg

Hm. Maybe if I couldn't see her ribs quite so much.

xposts

after decades of punk and riot grrls it's easy to overlook how important she was at the time

surely there's more Joan Jett in riot grrl than there is Patti Smith...? Patti was SO obsessed with famous men, for one thing.

the phrase to stress here is "at the time", i.e. the 70s. patti smith demanded a level of respect that the runaways didn't; they couldn't escape their novelty act ghetto. smith knocked over a bunch of dominoes that knocked into other dominoes that ultimately knocked into the riot grrls. so important? yeah. tho I agree that ultimately the campy/trashy fare that the runaways and joan jett traded in proved more important aesthetically to riot grrls than smith's work.

and you make a fair point about janis, but she was a hippie who fit into a tradition of bluesy barnburners, whereas patti was an unprecedented, crotch-grabbing, spitting ball of fire.

lol @ rest of this thread

Just defend this poll for whatever reason, I made a poll of Ronnie James Dio and Iggy Pop one time just because they were both short and old.

lol at darnielle's routine save-a-ho-ing.

there have been more slender reasons to compare artists than 'they were both women in a predominantly male genre who came up at a similar time'. indeed, the poll is modelled on two WIR who didn't even come up at the same time, p j harvey and patti smith; and iirc darnielle took part without questioning why they two should be compared.

anyway there is nothing challopy about preferring the vastly superior joan jett.

I am serious about that SNL performance tho! I remember seeing that in high school on some re-run and being really struck by it/excited/amazed. It is great. Then I bought Horses and discovered that Gloria is actually the best song on there (and that several of the other songs on there are pretty goddamn annoying). Heard "Because the Night", didn't like it. Heard "People Have the Power", didn't like it. Heard "Radio Ethiopia", didn't like it.

now, Joan Jett I have been familiar with for as long as I have been listening to the radio. The Runaways material is great. Joan Jett's early Blackhearts stuff is great. The Evil Stig album is great. I listen to all these with more regularity than I have ever listened to Patti Smith.

so no I am not trying to be challopsy

tbh I'd probably be tilting towards jett if I hadn't seen smith live in the late 90s. I was not a huge fan going in but that show was a religious experience.

sure, why not? You ask what they have in common. Well, they both belong an underrepresented population (which leads to questions about why this population is underrepresented, and how/whether that informs the artists' work, etc.) Why is this not legitimate.

can't deny that the argument's persuasive, though it also seems reductive - you can see how it's a little bogus for the outside-looking dominant-quality onlooker to say "these compare because they are outside the framework"? why not lora logic, poly styrene, lene lovich, debbie harry (much more interesting comparison to jj imo), alice bag, deborah iyall - or do they all seem like just as good a point of comparison?

xpost shakey mo you can't tell me you don't like radio ethiopia c'mon man that is a solid record.

dunno I haven't listened to it in 20 years haha

"pissing in the river" cannot be fucked with

why not lora logic, poly styrene, lene lovich, debbie harry (much more interesting comparison to jj imo), alice bag, deborah iyall

I'm not even familiar with half these people - Debbie's the highest profile and the only one I'd consider in the same league as Joan/Patti in terms of iconic status. Where's Suzi Quatro in yr list haha (I'd take her over all of these, personally, with possible exception of Debbie)

harvey and smith are a pretty legit comparison imo considering how many THE NEW PATTI SMITH articles ran in re: harvey.

btw I'm throwing a 10-year birthday party for the phrase "save-a-ho," everybody who enjoys using this wonderfully aging phrase c'mon out, bring yr geritol

xpost haha I threw suzi quatro out because I didn't want to look like I was just throwing everybody in

why not lora logic, poly styrene, lene lovich, debbie harry (much more interesting comparison to jj imo), alice bag, deborah iyall

well none of these folks were standing on a stage in 1975

wait I guess harry was

actually I'd like to see joan jett vs. chrissie hynde, that's a much fairer fight to me

notice that I did not say catfight

NO BUT YOU MEANT IT

MROWR

I saw Patti Smith several years ago right after I had lost my job. Sitting alone at the bar not wanting to meet anybody because they might ask me what I did for a living. It was an emotional show.

I didn't get to see Joan Jett when I was a kid and she played AstroWorld because I was there with my church group and they made us leave before her concert started. I road on the big round water rapids ride with her and her band though. Or maybe it was her biggest fans pretending to be her, I'll never know for sure.

more important, is both of these artists matter to my life from their records. "Pissing in a River" "I Got No Answers"

a++ trolling jd it is a rare swoop to catch eddy, shakey & banriquit all @ once

how about joan jett vs. lou reed

patti smith vs. tom verlaine

a++ trolling jd it is a rare swoop to catch eddy, shakey & banriquit all @ once

I wish I were trolling, I am just the asshole I seem to be :(

my trolling is the realest, others have to plot their shit out but I just go jedi-style

patty smyth vs.the jets

Musicpix: In the early 80’s, you rode the wave of the pioneering Patti Smith, Blondie, and obviously your own success with The Runaways. Smith and Harry had the same challenges you had as far as being women in rock. I know that you had an alliance with Blondie, but what about Patti Smith or other women who were also trying to break that sexual barrier…was it a ‘ladies bathroom topic’ so to speak?

Joan: No. I probably met Patti Smith once early on. There wasn’t any kind of discussion going on. I had met Chrissie (Hynde/The Pretenders) a few times too but we didn’t sit down and formulate an attack plan or discuss music in women or any of that stuff. Certainly, the way I felt was, we’re just girls who play rock and roll. We were trying to not make a big deal of that. We knew we where that and you can’t get away from that but we didn’t want to push that. Yeah, we’re girls playing guitars and we’re musicians. That was the attack that those women were taking too in that they were artists but they were women first.

patti smith vs. patty smyth vs. a grizzly bear

Scandal vs Quarterflash

why not lora logic, poly styrene, lene lovich, debbie harry (much more interesting comparison to jj imo), alice bag, deborah iyall

more liek why not WHO?, WHO?, WHO?, debbie harry (much more interesting comparison to jj imo), WHO?, WHO?

it's not my fault that you don't know anything

I agree with Momus's on Patti Smith, which I posted on 'best music review thread ever' last week:

To be honest, Patti Smith's music is complete anathema to me. Caterwauling pretentiously over bluesy thrashes about a world in which artists = "niggers" = outsiders = freedom = Rimbaud = the Noble Savage and "there's a million membranes to break through"... Quite frankly, for me, there's more wisdom in an episode of The Mary Tyler Moore Show. MTM also never incited anyone to do atrociously rousing 20-minute cover versions of Gloria, or taught U2 and Sinead O'Connor politics.

I can't believe anyone takes Patti Smith at all seriously.

And from the 'rank anything you feel like ranking' thread, the ranking of top five reasons why I don't like Patti Smith based on the Please Kill Me book:

1. Penny Arcade: "Then I started to black out, so I left. I was going down in the elevator with Patti. I was losing it, and Patti kept saying to me, 'Do I look like Keith Richards?', 'How does my hair look? Does it look like Keith Richards' ?'"

2. Terry Ork: "Patti would always kiss someone and then look at you to make sure you'd noticed, almost as if she were acting out a sort of nineteen-twenties Paris kind of bohemian. She was very self-conscious about living as if she were onstage and about being a starfucker."

3. Gerard Malanga: "I was a little pissed off at Patti because when the book came out she thanked Anita Pallenberg, who she didn't even know, Bobby Neuwith and somebody else."

"I went out of my way to twist a few arms and get her work known and then she just turns around and thanks Bobby Neuwith....What did she get out of Bobby Neuwith? Maybe she got to meet Dylan. I thought it was a bit of brownnosing."

4. Danny Fields: "She and Robert used to come to Max's [Kansas City] every night, stand in the doorway and stare at all the chic people and wish they would be invited to sit down or to hang out with them."

5. Ed Friedman: "One time she told me, "Allen Ginsberg thought I was a cute boy and tried to pick me up, so I said 'LOOK AT THE TITS ALLEN! NOTICE THE TITS'"

she sounds pretty awesome in those quotes!

yeah that Ginsberg one is awesome

LOOK AT THE TITS ALLEN! NOTICE THE TITS'"

lolz yeah I'm sorry but that is hilarious

x-post

Yeah - but it kind of emphasises her lecturing hectoring humorless-side.

No, it doesn't: it shows how she's batshit crazy and awesome.

if allen ginsberg tried to pick me up i'd be just as humorless

look, I didn't come here to debate Patti Smith's tits.

all of those reasons above i think are reasons to LIKE patti smith

I hope Allen responded by pointing at his own man-boobs

look, I didn't come here to debate Patti Smith's tits.

new ilm board description plz

lecturing hectoring humorless

all qualities that are underpraised, the idea that these are The Things We've All Decided Are Bad is part of what's making the world boring

I mean, lecturing & hectoring and two of the #1 reasons why Lou Reed is superior to David Bowie

^^okay now who's being challopsy

LOL me

(fwiw the "who is better, lou reed or david bowie" argument was pretty much an every weeknight thing for me & my teenage friends ca. 1982-83 til Bowie released "Let's Dance" and I was like "you guys suck, this is garbage, I win")

I mean, lecturing & hectoring and two of the #1 reasons why Lou Reed is superior to David Bowie

also why tuomas got sb'd iirc

you better check that sausage before you put it in the waffle J0hn

look, I didn't come here to debate Patti Smith's tits.

"Just the facts, ma'am."

And yeah, Bob Six's quotes confirm exactly my worst suspicions about her.

I agree with Momus's on Patti Smith, which I posted on 'best music review thread ever' last week:

To be honest, Patti Smith's music is complete anathema to me. Caterwauling pretentiously over bluesy thrashes about a world in which artists = "niggers" = outsiders = freedom = Rimbaud = the Noble Savage and "there's a million membranes to break through"... Quite frankly, for me, there's more wisdom in an episode of The Mary Tyler Moore Show. MTM also never incited anyone to do atrociously rousing 20-minute cover versions of Gloria, or taught U2 and Sinead O'Connor politics.

I can't believe anyone takes Patti Smith at all seriously.

Oh, bless her heart. Admit it, you know she will have something interesting to say. Nothing against Joan Jett, but I don't think
people care about her opinion as much.

you better check that sausage before you put it in the waffle J0hn

this is why btw when Alfred comes reppin New Sensations & Legendary Hearths I remember being very relieved that we weren't having this argument, my friends and I, at that time, because Bowie at least had "Blue Jean" to his credit at that point whereas Lou has "Original" fucking "Rapper"

and Bowie had "Day-In Day Out"!

i've had the lou vs. bowie debate before w/friends.

it's tough.

a friend made the sorta convincing argument that lou reed is just way more fascinating as a person and that even his failures are sort of all out genuine crazy person failures not like bowie who sort of flits about with the fashion of the day.

but i like both of their music a lot.

lou is probably more "important" cuz of velvet underground.

tried to vote for lou reed in this poll, but I can't ...

Another tough choice that no one will ever remember making

I'm having a Bowie day, incidentally. I'm on my fourth album.

That too.

god help me momus otm

Dakota Fanning ... Cheri Currie

hahahaha waht

― One of the Most High Profile Comedy Directors of the 90s (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 13 March 2009 18:45 (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hahahaha why not?

(I know it was ages ago...)

god help me momus otm

Same here.

BTW, everyone on this thread is RONG. Genya Ravan should be the winner here.

And from the 'rank anything you feel like ranking' thread, the ranking of top five reasons why I don't like Patti Smith based on the Please Kill Me book:

1. Penny Arcade: "Then I started to black out, so I left. I was going down in the elevator with Patti. I was losing it, and Patti kept saying to me, 'Do I look like Keith Richards?', 'How does my hair look? Does it look like Keith Richards' ?'"

2. Terry Ork: "Patti would always kiss someone and then look at you to make sure you'd noticed, almost as if she were acting out a sort of nineteen-twenties Paris kind of bohemian. She was very self-conscious about living as if she were onstage and about being a starfucker."

3. Gerard Malanga: "I was a little pissed off at Patti because when the book came out she thanked Anita Pallenberg, who she didn't even know, Bobby Neuwith and somebody else."

"I went out of my way to twist a few arms and get her work known and then she just turns around and thanks Bobby Neuwith....What did she get out of Bobby Neuwith? Maybe she got to meet Dylan. I thought it was a bit of brownnosing."

4. Danny Fields: "She and Robert used to come to Max's [Kansas City] every night, stand in the doorway and stare at all the chic people and wish they would be invited to sit down or to hang out with them."

5. Ed Friedman: "One time she told me, "Allen Ginsberg thought I was a cute boy and tried to pick me up, so I said 'LOOK AT THE TITS ALLEN! NOTICE THE TITS'"

none of this bothers me. I'm certain dylan, reed, madonna, and a whole bunch of other talented people were hyperirritating, starfucking little twats during their early NYC careers.

momus vs. patti smith

xp There's solid and well-known video evidence in Dylan's case.

And as for Madonna... well, really now.

And Lou Reed, from all accounts I have read, is quite a penis.

like, this sized penis:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/fluxion23/transformer7sg.png

It's honestly hard for me to watch Don't Look Back, because that's not at all the Dylan I love. I may in fact be the Dylan I hate. What a cock-choking little shit.

But I guess it doesn't need to be said that if you listen to the records, it's peak Dylan.

none of this bothers me. I'm certain dylan, reed, madonna, and a whole bunch of other talented people were hyperirritating, starfucking little twats during their early NYC careers.

OK - for me with Patti there's something else, beyond these qualities you mention.

It's the incongruity behind the general image of 'poetess', 'visionary', 'role model' , details such as

- 'in 2005, Smith was named a Commander of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres by the French Ministry of Culture.
- 'At the 2008 Rowan Commencement ceremony, Smith received an honorary doctorate degree for her contributions to popular culture'

and comparing this with the content of what she says, such as the whole vacuous content of the Swedish youtube interview above.

Q. What does freedom mean to you?

...I'm outside of society. Rock and roll is my art. I'm a n%gger of the universe, and I'm free because I can leap up and scream, I can put my fist up in the air, I don't give a shit....

And later on towards the end (of part 1):

"We went to the moon - big deal! We went to Mars - big deal! We keep moving and moving and moving. You know Mohammed went through seven heavens? Big deal! I want to see the eight heaven, tenth heaven, thousandth heaven...."

I don't demand my favourite musicians are intellectuals. Many of the best aren't, such as the Ramones (sorry to single you out guys). But where they do aspire to or claim visionary, poetess, revolutionary role model status....

- 'in 2005, Smith was named a Commander of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres by the French Ministry of Culture.
- 'At the 2008 Rowan Commencement ceremony, Smith received an honorary doctorate degree for her contributions to popular culture'

so the fuck what? What does have to do with her? For all I know, I'll receive an honorary degree in Being a Dick on ILX.

Also you're taking that statements in context relative to you, not relative to her time and place and age.

where they do aspire to or claim visionary, poetess, revolutionary role model status....

Your words, every one.

Thank you to this thread for making me listen to Horses again.

I could look at the cover of that record for the entire time it takes to listen to it. Great photo.

You know what? She kind of DOES look a little like Keith Richards.

I can predict what you're going to say when you move on to the cover of Easter:

"You know what? Allen Ginsberg should have noticed those..."

I have no quarrel with the record covers. Some of the best record covers and t-shirts in the business, Ms. Smith.

thank you mister mapplethorpe

Nah, the cover of Horses is great Mapplethorpe, all kind of gender-destruction going on in even the small elements. The delicacy of her hand vs. the iron look on her face. The cover of Easter is kind of all armpit. Good album, perfectly acceptable armpit, but not really my thing.

xpost

yeah, I suppose I can forgive this a lot because its, y'know, the past. CBGB's and all that, if it wasn't filtered through smoky archival footage and GREAT photos it would all seem as daft as it probably would. That said, if it was Horses v. Marquee Moon it would be MM hands down, same coiled, scorched earth take on 60's rock and psychedelia, same vocal inflections nearly, but Television sound tighter, flintier, neurotic, paranoid and exhilarating compared to Patti's spazzed out death rattle. Still, I don't thing people give credit to how varied this album is, sure everyone remembers the feverish beat poetics and garage-revivalism, but what about the atmospheric pop of Kimberly and Free Money or the reggae inflections of Redondo Beach. Like, it covers at lot of bases in the course of eight tracks. Also, it is fun, it's practically a concept album - this shamanistic prophecy where the fire and brimstone is made out of the trappings of teen culture and rock, not exactly mind blowing, but I think its really funny and fun!

I was talking a couple weeks ago to my girlfriend about the Mapplethorpe photos of Patti Smith, and how alarmingly intimate they are. Not that they're NSFW or anything, just... very close to her. They're the kind of pictures a great photographer takes of a lover -- nearly uncomfortable in the volume of expression from both sides of the lens.

But his photos of her are his best photos!

I didn't say otherwise.

I didn't say you did! I just think there's this great chemistry in those photos, but it's an expression of that intimacy and also the kind of showoff performance they're both trying to give, this fake intimacy to avoid the real intimacy that just redirects your gaze back. The idea of being there when some of these photos were taken is kindof scary. They're really intimidating in the way they are both forceful and hollow while being surprisingly sweet for such stark images.

Also, the way the cover of Horses is composed for the exact shape and size of an lp shows what a great painter he might have been.

I think.

Who's to say what's fake intimacy? Just because she's obviously performing for the camera doesn't mean it's not really her.

His photos of *anybody* are the best photos of them...

The idea of being there when some of these photos were taken is kindof scary.

Not if you were one of them, which is the only way those photos could have been taken. The act of observing it from the corner would have changed it. They wouldn't have done it. They both had to have control of the image. Maybe one of the sweetest things about the photos is how they were able to share the control.

xpost, no I didn't really mean it like that, I just kind of feel like there's this great energy that comes from this mutual wariness and curiosity. Like each of them trying to get a closer look while keeping their distance.

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say "control" in this instance, but it sounds like it might be really interesting.

yeah, I meant in a fly in the wall sense.

He's controlling his image, as in the photo, and she's controlling hers, as in "Do I look like Keith Richards?" But they meet halfway. She's not being a model, she's being an equal, quite adamantly.

Anyway it's the best look possible of what must have been a quite unconventional relationship.

I didn't realize until I looked it up just now that this is a Polaroid:

http://www.postmodern.com/~fi/pattipics/images/only.jpg

He Photographed Me (And It Felt Like A Kiss)

The idea of being there when some of these photos were taken is kindof scary.

Yeah, ok, you're totally right.

And yeah, Bob Six's quotes confirm exactly my worst suspicions about her.

― I Harbour Multitudes (Bimble), Friday, March 13, 2009 11:52 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

that's funny, they (along with that hilariously batshit u-tube clip--thanx dude!) helped me make up my mind - luv ya Joan, but it's gotta be Patti, now and forever.

: D

I don't really know Joan Jett that well...I wonder if a better taking sides would be:

TS - Modern shamans: Patti Smith vs Jim Morrison

(note both photograph well)

oh jesus

romaine vs. iceberg

i love horses.

but i hate easter mostly. rock n roll nigger is so embarrassing.

i got i love rock n' roll when i was a little kid for xmas, so i guess joan was kind of my first "real" rock record
outside of my parents CCR and stones and stuff

it seemed really hard and loud and mysterious and great (i guess i was jeez 7 or 8?)

so it probably blew my mind more than horses did in some ways.

when I was ten or eleven I had the "Because the Night" b/w "Godspeed" single and I liked it so I wrote a fan letter to Patti Smith. Whoever was coordinating stuff for her sent back a multi-page Xeroxed fanclub kinda thing, very D.I.Y. looking, which I loved until I got to the printout of "Rock and Roll Nigger," which, I mean, my case against it was hardly a sophisticated reading ("saying that word means you are a racist") but it offended the shit out of me and I didn't really listen to her again until I got a cassette of Radio Ethiopia when I was 16. Which btw remains one of the great driving tapes of all time.

Patti is great and embarrassing at the same time, because she brought into the whole rock n' roll as liberation fantasy as only an ambitious, working class Jersey outsider could. So to me what makes her great is also what makes her seem like a complete fool. It's both sides of the same romantic rock fantasy. And there's no doubt she's important, while very few musicians quote her style directly, she's just too odd and eccentric, there wouldn't be a Pretenders, Raincoats, or Banshees without Patti. Plus, in that early 70's Mapplethorpe portrait, Patti looks downright vulnerable, so I'd claim just the opposite. What makes the picture so alluring is the absence of any attempt at control. But who knows, I'm not privy, to what type of relationship Patti and Mapplethorpe had. So Patti, yeah...

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Modern shamans: Patti Smith vs Jim Morrison

mods plz rename board thx

I'd never seen that SNL vers. of Gloria before:

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/7731156-1298996642.html

Speaking of Patti and SNL

\m/

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

my mind is so blown

Quick!

Women In Music: Meredith Monk vs. Kathleen Hanna! poll

Alice Coltrane v. Courtney Love

http://reduxfilms.com/img/James_Wah_Wah_lg.jpg

Joan's "Roadrunner" cover is so well-used in an episode of "The Wire," season two.

ILM ♥ iceberg lettuce

iceberg lettuce > wilted chard

Really?

Joan Jett wins!!!! Yeah! :) :)

I'm not a huge fan of her or anything but love the first two Runaways albums and her cover of Stooges "I Wanna Be Your Dog" is to die for. Didn't someone here say she covered some other cool stuff? I know about Crimson & Clover, but what else did she cover?

Noodle, much as I love Brian Eno, that James album is an absolute snoozefest.

oh sorry Roadrunner! must read thread before posting...

My love of Patti Smith is definitely not based on the nuanced sophistication of her poetic vision...

Bimbs that goes without saying but the title seemed appropriate.

Hahaha. :)

Hongroe like the wolf! Oh my god, Noodle, your screen names never fail to make me LOL. I really think we should all take you as an example for screen names.

To a kid looking up to me, life ain't nothing but zings and no money.

I loved the Roadrunner cover, wow, thanks ILM.

who the fuck would've voted for Patti Smith?!?

me! you got a problem with that?

"do you want to touch me (oh yeah)" is my favourite song ever

how to vote? For Joan?

Poll's over. Joan won.

Now that I've seen the Patti Smith doc on PBS where she and Flea talk about pee, I want to change my vote.

Sorry to be late to the party, but I think Patti is gorgeous. I love the Mapplethorpe photos, and the story of their friendship. I would love to have been there when all that was happening! And BTW Kenan, I LOVE that I can see her ribs :)

http://www.sohoblues.com/SoHoBluesBWPortraits/previewpages/preview10.jpg

Now that I've seen the Patti Smith doc on PBS where she and Flea talk about pee, I want to change my vote.

― Zachary Taylor

lol