The sound of Nirvana

Where is Jack Endino?

By "recorded by Steve Albini" I'm assuming you mean In Utero, right? because that was still mixed by Andy Wallace, and was far enough from what Cobain and Albini intended for them to include "suggested bass and treble settings" in the sleeve. So really the poll is fallacious, because we never got to hear Nirvana "recorded by Steve Albini" without at least one layer of influence added on.

When In Utero came out, it was more a confrontation with the Nevermind 'polished' sound. That's why I left Endino out of this.

http://www.bcmedicalbilling.com/RadioButton.pngProduced by Chris Blackwell

Oh, come on. We read lots and lots of interviews in which Kurt said how superior was the Albini recording process and how it sounded in the end.

Albini just for Serve the Servants

Scott Litt on Heart Shaped Box & All Apologies = :( though.

or :| ,rather

Oh, come on. We read lots and lots of interviews in which Kurt said how superior was the Albini recording process and how it sounded in the end.

Yes, but, Kurt then blew his head off because he coudn't stand being such a sell-out. Had Wallace not mixed In Utero, Kurt might have gone on to make interminable folk/country solo albums. THINK ABOUT THAT.

Sounds great.

Scott Litt and Alex Coletti on Unplugged!

Albini just for Serve the Servants

^^^^^^

But yeah, Albini for the drum sound in Milk It, as much as anything else.

OK, I'd just heard Serve the Servants after many many many years, remembered all the fuzz about In Utero sound x Nevermind sound in the 90s and jumped in front of the computer. YOU ARE ALL RIGHT. Can we discuss how unfairly maligned was the Butch Vig production?

I read that the rough mixes from Butch Vig sounded much closer to natural Albini-style production than the final product.
Someone post link to "nevermind sessions"? This is supposedly Nevermind without the Andy Wallace hi-gloss-ery.

I remember dubbing CD of nevermind to cassette with volumes maxed out to get even crazier sound. My production is best! Hi-hats sound like car crashes! Bass sounds like napalm!

I love how people still talk about Nevermind with disgust as if it's late period Ratt or something

I remember dubbing CD of nevermind to cassette with volumes maxed out to get even crazier sound. My production is best! Hi-hats sound like car crashes! Bass sounds like napalm!

― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, March 25, 2009 1:25 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wanting to hear this

I love how people still talk about Nevermind with disgust as if it's late period Ratt or something

nobody rides for free.

But yeah, Albini for the drum sound in Milk It, as much as anything else. - OTM. I love the raw menace Albini is able to conjure from drum sounds. See also: Seamonsters by The Wedding Present.

the albini mix of In Utero was floating around the internet this month, it sounds like total dogshit

is this the one with the light saber guitar solo on heart shaped box?

i guess so?

the guitar solo sounds pretty dumb and sabery

albini here, no question. i'm basically seeing this as "nevermind" to "in utero". i always liked "in utero" better. IU is just, i don't know, so much heavier. rougher. the drum sound is awesome, esp. on 'milk it.' that tune's outstanding

yeah, this poll should really be "Which record sounds better"

in utero is rougher but also brighter, i think it makes better use of cobain's voice, among other things. i definitely do not hate (or hate on) nevermind, i just think in utero does better justice to the sonic idea or ideals of nirvana.

Chris Blackwell produced their best work. :)

:)

in utero sounds great

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e277/concreteloop/5665789dasurs3252009122953AM.jpg

nevermind is not really butch vig's best work imo

in utero probably the best sounding albini recording after the low records he did. but yeah his mixes are, uh, inadequate

not being a fan of roomy drums myself i don't warm to albini's mixing all that much

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Oh well. Whatever.

Really all three of their studio albums sound pretty good, especially Bleach since it cost like $300 bucks to record.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Whoa, close.

I wonder if watching these 'behind the scenes' videos would have changed anyone's vote one way or the other:

paraphrasing, "Kurt really wanted it to have only one guitar track on the song. But I didn't. So I tricked him into recording the same part a bunch of times so I could layer them over each other and make everything sound like shit. Now it's sounding like a rock song."

this was from that poker forum where albini started the 'Ask a music scene micro celebrity' thread

ON WHETHER THERE IS A FULL ALBINI-MIXED VERSION OF IN UTERO IN EXISTENCE:
"The version of the album in the stores is the version the band wanted people to hear, and I respect that. Any 'alternate version' floating around out there is either totally bogus or a generations-removed copy of a cassette dub, and not worth your attention."

but this is on wikipedia:
"In 2003 what is believed to be the original Albini mix of In Utero was issued as a vinyl-only release by Universal Records in the UK. This is believed to be the result of a mistake at the factory when the wrong master tapes were used to have the album recut."

as an album i prefer In Utero but i am happy that Vig won.

i overwhelmingly prefer in utero/albini, but butch has the hometown cred (nevermind was recorded at smart, right?)

oh, apparently only the demos were recorded at smart, of which only "polly" made the album :(

"So I tricked him into recording the same part a bunch of times so I could layer them over each other and make everything sound like shit"

watching that video, it really supports the idea of nevermind as plasticky constructed manipulated sounding (and therefore "bad"), but on the other hand, watching him drop out tracks with the faders/flyers? looks like fun! like a reverse-guitar hero or something.

didn't someone leak the individual tracks of in utero some time back? I'd be curious to hear what people who think they could improve in utero's sound would come up with with those.

Those results are LOLZ

that video is great

Missed this poll. Prefer Steve Albini production by a mile.

Music production as a whole seems to have followed the path laid our by Butch Vig since then , so I guess WTF do I know?

laid out, that is...

awww c'mon, the songs on Nirvana are basically hooky, well-written pop songs, part of the job of the producer is to do justice to the material, and to not let the band shoot themselves in the foot. Also:

Wallance and Vig are quick to note that, at the time, in 1991, the band members loved the mixes, and the group signed off on the finished product

- they only became disillusioned when, y'know, uncool people started buying the album.

here's Drain You from an earlier demo that is also Butch Vig supposedly. do you guys prefer/dislike this version?

http://www.mediafire.com/?wtmuy3y4jkm

OMG this Live @ Reading remaster sounds AMAZING

^__________________^

I'm even more excited about the live disc that comes with the Bleach remaster.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e277/concreteloop/5665789dasurs3252009122953AM.jpg

n/a?

Radio Friendly Unit Shifter. Listened to this on a comp tonight. Sounded rad in the car pumped up full bore. I know people thing its overkill and in for the Christmas rush but is there any chance this thing ( Bleach reissue and concert and Reading concert) could be fucking ACE?

http://endhits.portlandmercury.com/endhits/archives/2011/05/02/want-to-hear-miley-cyrus-cover-nirvana-no-too-bad

the URL . . . I want to click it and yet I don't . . .

goosebumps

as a priggish punk elitist, i have no interest in miley covering anything for any reason, ever

with the irony in mind, though, i am a bit weirded out by the hardline, pro-in utero, punk authenticity boosterism present in so many comments from two years back. ecuador_with_a_c otm:

awww c'mon, the songs on N[evermind] are basically hooky, well-written pop songs, part of the job of the producer is to do justice to the material, and to not let the band shoot themselves in the foot.

[the band] only became disillusioned when, y'know, uncool people started buying the album.

this seems about right to me, and while i think in utero is pretty spectacular, it only occasionally delivers the pure, simple, "raw power" kick of a great punkrock band in action as well as jack endino's budget job on bleach did.

butch vig's big, glossy nevermind production may not have earned the band much punk cred, but it served the songwriting exceptionally well, both as pop and as hard rock. remember listening to the album for the first time on a long plane flight (from NC back home to seattle) and tripping hard on its vastness and power. more than anything else, it sounded insanely expensive, like a scrooge mcduck-size ocean of lovely green money. as a punk/indie kid, nothing i cared about sounded like that, and i was both chastened and impressed by how much i dug it. the gleaming pop production and the careful attention vig obviously paid in crafting it had a great deal to do with the album's massive success and with the band's lasting legacy, imo. it's similar to the butcher brothers' work on urge overkill's saturation: bringing out the best in each song, honing everything for maximum accessibility without compromising the music's essential identity and integrity.

albini's work on in utero is truer to the band and era's "corporate rock still sucks" ethics, and it's undeniably impressive. but it's also uneven, and it holds the songs back at least as much as it shows off the band's ferocity. i sometimes love in utero, sometimes think it gets swamped in its period-chic, aggro-indie pretensions. were it not for the scott litt remixing on "heart-shaped box" and "all apologies", it'd be a much poorer album overall.

Wonder if some of the reactionary criticism towards Nevermind's production has anything to do with recidivist distaste for failed expensive production lavished on insecure artists: Elvis Costello, the Replacements, etc.

interesting question, i dunno. thing i remember is that few people that i knew had problems with the sound of album when it first came out. friends, co-workers, record store peeps: most everyone seemed to be into it right off the bat, and there'd been boots floating around for a while anyway. you heard some defensive grumbling about how bleach was better, of course, but the initial reception seemed quite positive (though at the time, i would have taken "sliver" or "negative creep" over anything on nevermind, except maybe "breed").

was only after the album got HUGE with all the wrong people, and especially in the wake of the much more brutal in utero, that anti-nevermind backlash became something like the hipster/critical consensus.

The eighties, remembered, were well populated with acts whose attempts at crossover failed ignominiously.

*remember

^ don't remember this. not saying you're wrong, but i came of musical age in the mid-late 80s, and many of my early horses ran quite well - in terms of critical reception and my own tastes, if not hits/sales. thinking here of albums like tim and pleased to meet me, goo, bandwagonesque, green mind, doolittle, hit to death in the future head, independent worm saloon, etc.

then again and especially in the wake of nevermind, lots of bands DID get the shaft, no doubt. husker du suffered badly circa candy apple gray, and tons of also-ran bands were quickly signed, stripped of all character and subsequently dropped: sixteendeluxe, gaunt, etc.

not sure what the situation might have been prior to the late 80s indie boom, though. like i saw costello's failures more as the product of his own missteps than of label interference and/or misguided production, but i wasn't really paying attention in the same way, so i don't really know.

Well, with Costello, I was thinking of the Langer-Wistanley mismatch of 1983 and 1984.

those are dispiriting records, no doubt (love the t-bone burnett and nick lowe productions on the follow-ups though). it's true that even by the mid 80s, i was aware of a strong distrust of "slick, major-label productions" among yr hipper fans and critics, perhaps owing to missteps like that. and yeah, by the time in utero dropped, such attitudes had become hipster cant.

didn't the loudness wars start about this time, too, though?

YEAAHHHH!!!!!

i dont really care much for slick compressed processed stadium rock sounding crap like nevermind. albini brought out the best in the band -the dynamics and spaciousness of his recordings is untouchable. bleach was recorded for about $500 and sounds way better than nevermind. ive heard more energy on bedroom demo tapes than any track on nevermind, the life was squashed out of every good song on it.

my guess is that it probably sounded alright until andy wallace got his hands on it.

bleach was recorded for about $500 and sounds way better than nevermind.

but the songs mostly suck

besides, Scott Litt sprinkled great sugar on lots of those IU tunes.

harsh words for Bleach from Alfred...About a Girl, Negative Creep, School, even the Love Buzz cover: all stone-cold classic!

yeah, theyre all down to earth, direct, raw, rocking songs alright.

and I disagree with contenderizer: I think that Albini's raw production on In Utero (still my favorite album of the 90s) gave the songs an edge, which in Nirvana's case meant self-laceration.

I don't what to make of your binaries, jumpskins. How is Vig's mix not down to earth or direct?

A more reasonable answer:

in utero is rougher but also brighter, i think it makes better use of cobain's voice, among other things. i definitely do not hate (or hate on) nevermind, i just think in utero does better justice to the sonic idea or ideals of nirvana.

― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, March 25, 2009

yeah, somewhat

Vig's production is a great example of something that was derided as "overproduced" at the time but now sounds practically quaint (albeit still effective).

The way people then and now about the production, you'd think Mutt Lange worked on it. Could've been good for those choruses though.

people go on

I like the gated drum reverb on Come As You Are, and I've warmed to those DX-7 synth parts on Polly, but the children's choir in Territorial Pissings sounds pretty dated in retrospect.

yeah, but fuck you if you don't like the Arthur Baker Gunblast Remix of "Lithium."

this may be a chicken-and-the-egg thing, but i feel like Nirvana's 3 albums all have production and material that go hand in hand with each other -- Bleach's production suited Bleach's songs and Nevermind's production suited Nevermind's songs and so on. i wouldn't really wanna hear one album's songs recorded in the style of the others.

I think the Muddy Banks album may be their best one

i don't have a favorite really

I probably need to hear With the Lights Out and Live at Reading

I think that Albini's raw production on In Utero (still my favorite album of the 90s) gave the songs an edge, which in Nirvana's case meant self-laceration.

― if hongroes could fly this place would be a geirport (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, May 3, 2011 9:20 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark

agree with this, and that's part of what i dislike about in utero. the "edge" is fetishized and flaunted a bit too obviously. i find it oppressive, at least some of the time. like, i can't imagine a production better suited to "scentless apprentice" (one of my very favorite nirvana songs), but eventually the album starts to wallow in self-lacerating brutality for its own sake. it's artistically valid and undoubtedly true to the band's vision, but i don't personally like it much. i say this as a fan of the melvins, flipper, karp, jesus lizard, etc.

it is oppressive; you're right. That's part of what I like about it...

I've heard critics go on about Vig's smart, self-aware production on Nevermind (another great album); what exactly does that refer to?

ppl act like in utero is a whitehouse album or something

okay, i listened to in utero for the first time in quite a while, to recalibrate my impressions and maybe check myself. i still feel more or less the same way about it. the sound is incredible, especially in the bass/drums dept - much more naturalistic and immersive than nevermind's smoothed-out blur. love the first six songs and wouldn't change a thing about the way they're recorded, but side two quickly becomes a slog. it's partly that songs like "radio friendly unit shifter" and "tourettes" just aren't on par with nirvana's best, and while i won't fault "milk it", it's just not a personal favorite. i think a somewhat less belligerent (or a more adventurous) production might have helped the medicine go down. one man's opiniom

tourette's might be my favourote song from the album, so yeah, agree to disagree...

Great record. I think the second half of In Utero is the better. Personally side one loses a bit of momentum for me with Frances Farmer- still a good song and Rape Me also great, but a bit of a Nevermind reminder. Second half is when things get cooking for me(not to decry the funking awesome Serve the Servants, Scentless Apprentice, Heart Shaped Box 1-2-3.

this may be a chicken-and-the-egg thing, but i feel like Nirvana's 3 albums all have production and material that go hand in hand with each other -- Bleach's production suited Bleach's songs and Nevermind's production suited Nevermind's songs and so on. i wouldn't really wanna hear one album's songs recorded in the style of the others.

Yeah I feel like this too - I mean basically I'm happy with there being three Nirvana albums with three very different production styles, rather than there being a uniform sound for all of them.

I've heard critics go on about Vig's smart, self-aware production on Nevermind (another great album); what exactly does that refer to?

― if hongroes could fly this place would be a geirport (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, May 3, 2011 6:15 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

wait, people have called the production "self-aware"? what does that even mean? can you provide an example?

dude I'll probably have to dig around for it; back when I was 12 or 13 my mom would go to university libraries to do research for her master's, and she'd take me along and I would get on a computer and search the college's vast magazine/journal database for articles on Nirvana and PJ...offhand I'm thinking it was an article for something related to either Spin or Rolling Stone...

(it might have referred to some offhand comment by Byron Coley w/r/t the first Cheap Trick album that is casually dismissive to Vig)

(btw if you haven't inferred yet, all of this is coming back in kind of a muddle, so I might not even haven't remembered this right)

the sound is incredible, especially in the bass/drums dept - much more naturalistic and immersive than nevermind's smoothed-out blur.

i love the production on in utero, and the aesthetic is definitely less "slick" then nevermind, but i don't think i would ever call it naturalistic. the snare sound on this record is still a larger-than-life, compressed monster (and crazy loud in the mix on most songs).

well, natural-sounding relative to nevermind - not that in utero's a single-mic room recording or anything

was a little baffled by the idea of a "self-aware" production myself. implies that the sound is somehow meta. suppose it might apply to something like urge overkill's saturation, where the slickness and vague 70s-ness were a kind of knowing joke.

i think i'd really like to hear "Frances Farmer" with different production

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2gfsV6zY-4

thanks! I do like the production on that version much better.

its a pretty great version!

love the JR version! thanks, stevie. kind of funny that he comes up, cuz his blood visions often strikes me as "oppressive" in its sound. approach isn't at all similar to in utero, but the end result does a similar thing to my ears.

agree that the original "frances farmer" is too bombastic for its own good. song's strong enough that i'm more or less okay with the heavy-handed arrangement & recording, though.

blood visions often strikes me as "oppressive" in its sound.

otm

is like three times louder than most stuff on my ipod

even on LP it's like being mashed by anvils

Man, that JR cover is great! Gotta listen to more JR I guess, never delved too deeply.

I have the Lost Sounds' Black-Wave just waiting for me to give it a listen...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/o3n61w

if you want to A/B vig and albini, here's versions of "sappy" recorded before remix/remastering, supposedly.
(to be honest, the only real difference I hear is vig likes the vocal doubling more)

http://www.spin.com/articles/nirvana-unheard-concert-satyricon-dale-crover

nevermind is not really butch vig's best work imo

don't remember what this meant, probably 8 way santa

a bad quality Nirvana boot on Youtube is news?

new one I just heard on sports talk radio: the beginning drum fill in “teen spirit” was ripped off from the gap band’s “early in the morning”

I don't buy it, the kick drum is totally different

dave grohl said it himself on his tv show episode with Pharrell

video here, cant figure out how to link wout linking to rando’s tweet

Super dope. Respect to artists that give their inspirations a shout. Pharrell is really big on that so it's dope that he got the exclusive. lol pic.twitter.com/3N3POZ9Sg2

— Factions2BetaTester (@CR00K__Gaming) June 30, 2021

the Gap Band DNA is probably in that drum fill, but the sheer number of outraged people on Twitter complaining that no one ever gave disco the credit it deserved for influencing Nirvana is a little silly.

Dave Grohl is deluding himself idc

I was foot tapping that “likes to shoot his gun” one earlier

finally, disco gets the credit it deserves for dave grohl's drumming

dave grohl does dodge ram commercials

it's times likes these you learn to lease a dodge ram!!
it's times likes these you learn to lease a dodge ram!!, i said,
it's times likes these you learn to lease a dodge ram!!
it's times likes these you learn to lease a dodge ram!!, i said, whoa-oh-oh!

imagine kurdt cobain leasing a dodge ram. gtfo

Has Grohl ever mentioned a disco influence before?

Atm I think I agree with Jordan that shifting the kick to the "e" and "a" instead of the "&" seems like a significant difference.

Could imagine long grey haired grizzled kurt

but that chorus beat is straight Madchester...

xp i think it would be like "you know you're right" crossed with modern day dave grohl. on the + side, grohl would be the drummer instead of the front man in this scenario

Has Grohl ever mentioned a disco influence before?

not the same thing but he was vocally stanning for electronic music on the first Foo Fighters promo stuff, iirc. his TV show, which I think was pretty good and entertaining, made it clear he has a broad palate.

The gap band is more funk than disco

Funkmaster Dave Grohl

That drum break is also close to « Funky Cold Medina » with its Funkadelic sample

But yeah the Nirvana one is obviously different on the kick

not the same thing but he was vocally stanning for electronic music on the first Foo Fighters promo stuff, iirc. his TV show, which I think was pretty good and entertaining, made it clear he has a broad palate.

I mean, there's having a broad palate and there's drawing deeply on Gap Band, Cameo, and Chic for the rhythms of every song on Nevermind? Just seems quite possible that his 30yo memory is being coloured a tad by the lens of the person he's talking to, the current trends, and his most recent project. It's not like people failed to make the connection wrt RHCP's funk influences or NIN's disco and synthpop influences.

he does a variation on the kick pattern but that doesn’t make it not a homage

The most disco-ish beat on “Nevermind,” and it’s not even particularly disco, is “In Bloom,” and Chad Channing wrote that drum part.

On the other hand I can believe Grohl listened to Tony Thompson - one of the things that initially drew me to Chic’s sound, before I was much of a funk or disco fan, was that the drummer grooves with the best of them but also hits the skins like he’s playing for Led Zeppelin (which he eventually did, of course). Grohl rarely essays a great groove, but that combination of muscle and precision is right there in his playing.

It’s also like the beginning of “hopscotch” by Gwen Guthrie

as grohl played the smells like teen spirit beat, it used up his last remaining store of coolness. he's been post-cool ever since

the drum intro to teen spirit always vaguely remind me of a syncopated version of motown, a la “ain’t too proud to beg”

maybe that’s what the gap band was doing too, idk

Grohl's best drumming is on Songs for the Deaf by QOTSA

that was also one of his favorite albums to drum on iirc

lol, Gap Band. He could have just as easily said, like, Not Just Knee Deep or something.

Gap Band rule

Grohl's best drumming is on Songs for the Deaf by QOTSA

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, July 3, 2021 8:48 PM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

^^^^^^^^

I'm sort of confused, so Grohl said he adapted a little drum fill from a Gap Band song and this is bad or a big deal why??

Skimmed this revive, but I think the answer is that it means ... nothing.

Skimmed this revive, but

― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, July 4, 2021 6:14 AM (eleven minutes ago)

lol, Gap Band.

― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, July 4, 2021 5:51 AM (thirty-three minutes ago)

i just like calling him uncool because of his longtime cool guy standing

xp

xpost I skimmed the revive while out and about, saw Grohl cited the Gap Band for "Smells," and made fun of that. But I didn't read any further, per UMS, to see if this was a big deal or bad. You nerd.

I’m bloom riff drummage would have been a good follow up to the argument but as wufs points out above , it’s not grohls

I'm sort of confused, so Grohl said he adapted a little drum fill from a Gap Band song and this is bad or a big deal why??

Bc he is using his white male privilege to perpetrate epistemic violence through cultural appropriation.

Seriously, the Gap Band fill was one example he gave of what he was describing as a broader influence throughout at least that album - this isn't a bad thing in any way but I think it's also fair for listeners to discuss the extent to which we hear this.

So where else can we hear it on the album

EVERY ONE OF THOSE SONGS

I’m really sorry for this revive, I didn’t know it was an internet memey thing, I honestly just thought was two guys on the radio riffin on a Friday afternoon

Nah, it was fun to think about.

Honestly, had Cobain lived they should have done a remix album.

A taste of what could have been...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Deconstructed.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98O3osLqZ74

Interesting exchange at 37", hard not to read something into Kurt's look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqlocVZrKyw

Christ, that is a somber look.

just love the sound of Nirvana, sounding as good as ever 30 years later

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRdc0OxUmYg

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/my-time-with-kurt-cobain

Azerrad reflects.

Given how important that book was to me at the time, quite a sobering peek behind the curtain of its conception and creation.

that was a great remembrance, thank you. the band mate on the ledge of the hotel (twice)...grohl or krist?

Krist, I’d bet

Happy 30th, Nevermind.

30 years!?!? Man.

Happy 30th loveless and...bandwagonesque

30 years!?!? Man.

Seriously. I actually have a distinct memory of when it turned TEN, and that seemed like yesterday.

(Re: the tenth anniversary, I remember it because Novoselic and Grohl were fighting Love who had blocked a tenth anniversary release of some kind, and Novoselic called her "the 'Osama Bin Laden' of the music industry." That stood out because 9/11 just happened and it was the first time I heard someone making a reference to it that wasn't serious and/or completely sober. I doubted Novoselic even said it until he repeated the same thing over and over again in the ensuing months.)

"the 'Osama Bin Laden' of the music industry."

this is kind of funny, lol

This was *really* good, aside from the occasional div talking about ‘rock bands today’ and rolling his eyes. Had no idea about the gig in a pub in Edinburgh

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000zx9h

nice home video footage of the row of shops near Brook Green W6 as well, and the old Dome Cafe that i used to walk past. also mention of...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kebab+Machine/@51.4979246,-0.2225199,3a,75y,242.29h,91.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD3LEZXQKB0VT0iHPOUYOog!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x48760fc618c8cb97:0x506c69141f3c6063!8m2!3d51.4978686!4d-0.2227072

i was at the Reading festival that first year but remember nothing about it. Babes in Toyland i remember and Chapterhead who played immediately after and i sure i would've remembered them doing Kiss Molly's Lips at the very least but nothing...

Chapterhouse, surely.

happy birthday to "drain you" the best song on nevermind :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zonurBhuZzE

on the same note, also happy 25th anniversary to 1991 dave grohl!

Listening to lots of live Nirvana today has reaffirmed that “School” absolutely f-ing destroys every time.

NO RECESS

That Azzerad article is the first I've heard of Kurt having any problems with Grohl's drumming, that's kind of fascinating.

Krist is such a cringey prick in old interviews, such a try hard and not remotely funny

Kurt's dissatisfaction started when he realized all Grohl's fills were stolen from the Gap Band.

lol
Chicka chicka chicka

Kurt more of a Brick man.

That Azzerad article is really sad. His book on Nirvana is a pretty bad, record-company-approved version of everything, and he pretty much admits that in the New Yorker piece. Sounds like he could write a great book about it all now, though.

That Azzerad article is the first I've heard of Kurt having any problems with Grohl's drumming, that's kind of fascinating.

From Grohl and others, Cobain whiplashed back and forth between praising and shitting all over Grohl's drumming. In the beginning he was thrilled, but eventually Cobain started complaining and I think Grohl himself recalled Cobain asking him directly to play more like Dale Crover or at least bringing Crover up as an example of what he wanted to hear. (I don't think Crover ever got complaints from Cobain because he was with them for a very short time.) But I think Grohl also said that before he died, Cobain told Grohl to his face that he was great.

Would imagine Kurt would have deferred to Crover being he was such a fan of the Melvins

Also '91 Crover was sick

Yeah, what little I've heard (or rather what exists) of the Crover "era" is pretty awesome.

I believe Kurt was particularly upset with Grohl’s inability to play quietly when they were getting ready for the unplugged thing. Grohl had never had any reason to play quietly before, and ultimately had to use Hot Rods* instead of regular sticks for the performance/filming.

*Hot Rods are thin wooden dowels bundled together, sort of a happy medium between sticks and brushes. And watching Unplugged, Grohl looks a little stiff and uncomfortable, struggling to keep his volume down even with the Hot Rods.

Indeed I’m surprised to learn KC was dissatisfied with DG’s drumming.

The story as I remember it (from some oral history?) was that the *producer* wanted Grohl to play quieter, and he/she was worried he would bristle at the Hot Rods. But supposedly Grohl was totally cool with them.

I think any problem Cobain had with Grohl was perhaps reflective of his own ambiguous/contradictory feelings toward fame and being slick. That is, I can totally imagine Cobain thinking Grohl was *too good*, the same way Pearl Jam more or less axed Dave Abruzzese for the same reason, replacing him with the conspicuously less slick Jack Irons (before of course eventually making their way back to the most obvious choice, Chamberlain, who is a killer drummer with chops). Cobain probably recognized Grohl as the one keeping it all together, which on any given night/mood could be good or bad, depending on what degree of self destruction Cobain was tilting toward.

Coletti: The week of the show, (Grohl’s powerful style) was still in my mind. And I ran to Sam Ash and got him some Hot Rods, Sizzle Sticks, and brushes. You know, little things that would lighten his touch. And it was close enough to Christmas that I put Christmas paper on it and I walked in. I didn’t know Dave well at all. I just handed them to him sheepishly because, you know, I’m gonna be an asshole. I said, “Merry Christmas,” and he opens it up and he’s like, “Cool, I’ve never had these before.” That was it. He walked away.

https://www.theringer.com/music/2018/11/14/18087878/nirvana-unplugged-oral-history-kurt-cobain

Huh, I thought I’d read that Kurt insisted on the Hot Rods. But I think (and this is just pure conjecture on my part) that Kurt was heading to a similar place that Paul Westerberg had been; that is, the new stuff he was writing may not have been particularly suited to his drummer’s strengths/abilities.

If grohl wouldn’t have used those sticks ( or brushes or bongos or whatever) he would have sounded hilarious banging out everything at max volume

If grohl wouldn’t have used those sticks ( or brushes or bongos or whatever) he would have sounded hilarious banging out everything at max volume

LMAO

just wanna chime in and say ums otm, it is hard to watch Kris in old interviews.

all 3 of them, really, but especially him. it's kind of a bummer now that there are so many goofy interviews (often instigated by Kris) when it'd be nice to have more thoughtful answers from Kurt.

Grohl says Kurt had a bit of a gripe with him about the drums being too loud, in the doc that comes with the Unplugged BluRay. He was in a bad mood all told; there had been some altercation with a fan outside beforehand or something. Still in the actual gig he’s pretty upbeat; I love the grin when someone shouts out ‘Kumbaya’ and the good-natured “I was *waiting* for that..” when the obligatory shout goes up for ‘Freebird’, plus his light ribbing of Pat Smear for his love of Queen. Jolly good bants all round.

So.. book-wise neither Heavier Than Heaven nor Come As You Are is much good? I know the Everett True book generally gets the side-eye from fans.

all 3 of them, really, but especially him. it's kind of a bummer now that there are so many goofy interviews (often instigated by Kris) when it'd be nice to have more thoughtful answers from Kurt.

― alpine static, Friday, September 24, 2021 5:57 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah the group interviews always devolve into sarcastic nonsense, he was better by himself in interviews

I mean Krist was dumb enough to turn into a libertarian so

As far as the sound of Nirvana tho the overdriven bass sound on Breed is so phat

i rewatched the unplugged episode on youtube bc of this discussion and idk i feel like grohl is visibly playing with a light touch even with the hot rods, at least until "where did you sleep last night" where he is suddenly hitting the snare mega hard but i imagine he's responding to the immensity of the vibe in that room during that song

idk maybe he got it together last minute, i really enjoy all the "the rehearsals were disasters but the taping was perfect" stories about this moment

"where did you sleep last night" is doom metal btw

Kind of interesting - Butch Vig is answering questions on the Nirvana twitter account now.

If I listen to Nevermind at all, it's the second side. "On a Plain" is a world-historic jam. American singers don't often flirt with camp as well as Cobain does with his lyrics and vocal approach here: I love myself better than you/I know it's hard but when can I dooooo.

Of the three books I thought ET did by far the best one, but that’s probably just me.

krist is one of the ultimate right place right time guys

I know the Everett True book generally gets the side-eye from fans.

I really, really loved ET's book. Easily my favourite Nirvana book.

I really enjoyed True's book as well. The only other Cobain biog I (half) read was by Christopher Sandford, and that was awful.

Reading that New Yorker piece reminds me that I was at that Roseland show.

I was taking notes, the wall of the raised former stage and now VIP section (the first time I saw a show there was Sonic Youth and they played on that stage) was at my back, as I reviewed the show and suddenly I was getting wet. I looked up and there was Courtney Love spilling beer on me.

I asked why and she said "I hate writers."

Then while kneeling down to talk to me, she introduced me to "a writer I don't hate," Everett True for reasons I cannot fathom.

I actually met him a night or two before at another CMJ Convention show. It was at Brownie's, maybe. I was near the front and there was a table there that was very wobbly. For some reason I decided to put my bag of CMJ goodies on it. That act alone shifted the weight of the table so dramatically that it caused a beer someone placed on it to slide off and break against the wooden floor.

The owner of the beer was Everett True. And he was pissed (not British pissed, drunk; he evidently wanted to get British pissed and wasn't yet, so he was instead angry pissed) and demanded I purchase him a replacement. This would have been the correct protocol but I was a broke-ass metal "critic" and I literally had a Subway token to get me back to Brooklyn after the show. I literally showed him my empty wallet but he was unrelenting. Fortunately for me Steve Holtje, a friend and copy-editor at Creem who I wrote for at the time, took pity on my and bought the lush a beer for me.

So anyway, I shake his hand while Courtney Love smiles down on me.

"We've met."

hahahahah

Well, it’s a stark memory, if not a pleasant one.

speaking of their behavior in interviews, here's one i haven't seen before, from way back in January of 1990, when they still were excited to be interviewed / took interviews somewhat seriously / weren't tired of doing interviews, etc. both Kurt and Krist actually answer the questions, though you can see Future Interview Krist bubbling under the surface:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__8UDylv7WU

awesome video
it's amazing how much changed, so quickly. they seem excited to be asked

Omg

Interesting to hear Kurt unironically refer Nirvana as a "grunge rock band"

somehow I don't even remember where I saw this 12 hours ago, but wherever it was said it was the band's first-ever recorded interview. doubly cool, if so.

Interesting to hear Chad describe their sound (and future direction) as “heavy pop”

thread inspired to dig into the non-singles from in utero, what a good band

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-AtW4wfnDE

*inspired me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0d2f_EqXNc

just heavy as fuck, its crazy that this is like the most popular rock band from the last 30 years

I love In Utero and the non-singles are crucial - they provide so much of the catharsis that made that album a singular achievement. (For the same reason, there's no way they'd ever become radio hits.)

I love those two songs so much. That was actually the Nirvana album that I really connected with. I liked Nevermind but not as much as Badmotorfinger and actually tired of it after a while at the time (to buy it again years later). In Utero fit right in with the noise-rock and post-hardcore stuff I was listening to by 94-95. Re popularity, iirc, it sold less than half of what Nevermind did? I didn't think Nirvana were as popular as Pearl Jam at the time - have they overtaken them retrospectively? (Green Day?) It certainly sold more than most other records with tracks like those, though, many times what the best-selling Sonic Youth album sold even.

Oh, it was released in 93. I didn't get it until 94.

Nirvana has 20.8M Spotify listeners compared to 11M for Pearl Jam and 19.8M for Green Day. OK.

I remember “Milk It” was actually the first song I heard from that album because it appeared on some DGC comp with a magazine issue — Option maybe? I really can’t remember — a couple of months or so even before “Heart-Shaped Box” came out. I remember playing it for board vet donut bitch at my place and we were pretty damn impressed.

Somehow I expected Foo Fighters to be in the same ballpark but no.

That said “Everlong” is one of the biggest songs they have after “smells like teen spirit” and “come as you are”

the foo fighters lost a lot of monthly listeners as dave grohl increasingly loses any traces of his coolness from the 90s

Just listened to the two songs linked above, and was reminded why "In Utero" is hands down my favorite Nirvana album. While the pop fan in me prefers the production on "Nevermind" due to the more clean, shiny sound, I think "In Utero" is where Nirvana truly assimilated their strengths, by managing to combine the noisy sludge of "Bleach" with the colorful sonic shading of "Nevermind", coming through with an album that feels more fully formed than "Bleach", and also rocks harder than "Nevermind".

Btw we went through this on another thread can’t remember which one but the actual most popular or at least most streamed rock band from the past 30 years in both spotify and youtube and also the most followers on their facebook fan page is Linkin Park.

Interesting. It does make a certain sense, given that Linkin Park had a diamond album, which definitely cements a legacy as far as music goes (see also: Green Day, Pearl Jam, a certain band that this thread revolves around, etc).

I wrote off Nirvana as populist fratboy music in '91 (because I'd never listened to them properly) but In Utero brushed that aside with its immense heaviness and core weirdness, one of the great albums of all time for me. I still can only listen to about half of Nevermind before the polish clogs in my ears.

Both slavishly overrated.

glad Alex in NYC is here to set the record straight

Haha Linkin Park has 22M monthly listeners!

In Utero, whatever you might think, is the most abrasive album to hit #1 to date.

Weirdly felt like Alex in 1993, at 11 years old. My thing was only buying the live albums cuz I felt like I heard the studio albums a million times from just being out around. I wasn't exactly boy about town.

the most abrasive album to hit #1 to date

Mmmmaybe. My vote would probably go to Pantera's Far Beyond Driven, but it's a close race.

At your service.

I don't really mind Krist's doofus persona in the early interviews -- he's funny! I can't find it, but there's one from 1991 that always cracks me up where he says the "Teen Spirit" video was directed by "Sam Bayer, TV's Jethro."

Is it the only Albini-produced album to hit #1?

Nope, Bush's Razorblade Suitcase also hit #1 in America.

And I would say, arguably, that Bush album is even more abrasive at moments than Nevermind.

I always forget Steve Albini produced that one.

So did he, once he cashed their check.

the album that built Electrical Audio

And I would say, arguably, that Bush album is even more abrasive at moments than Nevermind.

Do you mean In Utero, which would be an interesting claim? Bc Nevermind was neither produced by Albini nor especially abrasive.

I don't think of Nevermind as more abrasive than Zep II or Electric Ladyland.

xpost - yeah, brain fart, it's early. I'd say RS is actually fairly similar to IU in terms of abrasiveness (though, TO BE CRYSTAL CLEAR, not in terms of quality, even if i do ride for RS as actually being a kinda good album and the best thing Bush ever did).

So did he, once he cashed their check.

― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, October 6, 2021 11:10 AM bookmarkflaglink

Guess he was a "Greedy Fly"

I always forget Steve Albini produced that one.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Wednesday, October 6, 2021 8:07 AM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

So did he, once he cashed their check.

― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, October 6, 2021 8:10 AM (twenty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

my impression from everything i read about the record is that albini and rossdale actually bonded and became bros during the process

As for the band's name, Rossdale insists there are no sexist overtones. "Men have bushes too, after all. And actually, Bush is what we Brits call marijuana.

Albini has said time and again he is an engineer for hire. If you have money and he has time, he will record your band. It's a job.

but yeah iirc to brad's point I think he's never been effusive about the band but he has said they were cool

ums otm, I was just being kinda flip about it, I remember Albini being really clear that it was just a job even if he hated their music.

Am I wrong in remembering Albini saying he threw out a ridiculous number to Bush's team since he was already so busy, thinking they'd go elsewhere, but they accepted it right away?

that's what i remember, i think he definitely adjusts rates based on how big the band is/how busy he is etc

Bc Nevermind was neither produced by Albini nor especially abrasive.

I mean, Breed, Territorial Pissings, Stay Away and Endless Nameless are pretty abrasive.

I have never heard an English person refer to weed as "bush".

Bush’s music is proud of its inspirations, and Bush used the platform of their popularity to champion bands they thought deserved attention, taking a score of underground or breaking acts on tour with them and regularly paying tribute to the bands and songs that inspired them, occasionally covering the songs themselves to make it plain. I have worked in the studio with bands from the smallest to the largest, from those with no expectations to those with the grandest ambitions, and I am confident in ascribing genuine motives to Bush as I am of any band I’ve encountered. Through working with Bush they became friends, and I am as proud of their friendship as I am of any work I did for them. They made the music they did because they loved it and they got popular because they worked their asses off, and eventually other people liked it too. You cannot ask any more of an artist.

-steve albini

from the liner notes to the RS re-issue, apparently (https://consequence.net/2016/11/bush-share-never-before-released-razorblade-suitcase-track-sleeper-listen/). NB: I have never listened to this album.

"Endless Nameless" I'll grant - it wasn't on my cassette so I never heard it until relatively recently. The others I can see as abrasive like "Helter Skelter" is abrasive, just don't think I'd say "most abrasive to ever hit #1".

Albini had much harsher words for the Pixies.

The Pixies “Surfer Rosa” LP: A patchwork pinch loaf from a band who a their top dollar best are blandly entertaining college rock. Their willingness to be “guided” by their manager, their record company and their producers is unparalleled. Never have I seen four cows more anxious to be led around by their nose rings.

Except that I got to rewrite their songs with a razorblade, thought the drums sounded nice, and managed to get Nate the Impaler on the LP as a cameo, I remember nothing about this album, although I thought it was pretty good at the time. During the recording, a sibling of the sexual partner of a Pixie was lounging around making little fuck me noises, so I took her home and got stiffed. Had to retreat to Byron’s “den of satisfaction” and run a batch off by hand. I seem to remember that their Filipino guitar player was pro-Marcos, but I could be wrong. The album took about a week maybe two all tolled. Fee: $1,500.

I later recorded a single track with them for a label-stroke compilation album. The band had been getting the Big High Building “pampered performer" treatment for a couple of years by then and were consequently bored and dour. It took a couple of hours after dinner one night. Fee: $4,000. About a year later, Bob Krasnow, the geeb at Elektra’s Big High Building who fathered this dumb idea sent me a truly revolting nickel-and-gold Omega wristwatch (the kind Record Producers wear), with tacky Biz inscription and tacky presentation case. As soon as somebody at the pool room offers me what it’s worth, I'm gonna have a hell of a nice dinner.

I listened to Razorblade Suitcase not that long ago, it is good, that record was ubiquitous for a while in 90s on alt-radio & in people's cars but I always enjoyed those songs

the best part of the Bush/Albini relationship was Andy from Silkworm getting to do a two week fill-in spot as Bush's pale, balding guitar player

During the recording, a sibling of the sexual partner of a Pixie was lounging around making little fuck me noises, so I took her home and got stiffed. Had to retreat to Byron’s “den of satisfaction” and run a batch off by hand. I seem to remember that their Filipino guitar player was pro-Marcos, but I could be wrong.

I really hate Albini when he's enjoying being this much of a dick. It's like the ugliest side of that era of hardcore/pigfuck, this nasty inverted macho bullshit that just makes me think of that KITH routine, The Shortest Tubes In North York.

He later admitted he was hardmanning about the Pixies when he wrote all of that.

...and regretted being so harsh.

There were about 20 years between the two blurbs tbf. Dude mellowed with age no doubt.xps

When Bush headlined the basketball arena in Champaign back in 1995, Gavin wore a Hum shirt and shouted out the band at multiple points during the show. Sure, cheap pops for the hometown crowd, but he genuinely seemed to be excited about them, so it checks out with their support of smaller bands.

I started listening to Razorblade Suitcase but then thought to watch KiTH.

What are the most abrasive songs?

"Tendency to Start Fires"

Yeah that's one that pops to mind. To be clear I'm not suggesting this is Scratch Acid or anything, but it go pretty abrasive compared to where Bush's first album was.

I started listening to Razorblade Suitcase but then thought to watch KiTH.

wise IMO!

Am I wrong in remembering Albini saying he threw out a ridiculous number to Bush's team since he was already so busy, thinking they'd go elsewhere, but they accepted it right away?

― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0

This is called the Charlie Watts Dictum.

i do love this because once you hear it you can't unhear it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCrdSC2-1I

i love it too--makes so much sense

I just read that expanded Come As You Are textbook and was surprised to learn that Chad Channing came up with a great deal of the drum parts from Nevermind (the songs that had been done at smart studios prior) and Dave copied them note for note. Dave hit way way harder though.

it’s probably mentioned in this thread somewhere

That expanded Come As You Are is a fantastic read, the updated sections and after-the-fact notes are illuminating.

Most definitely, I really enjoyed it.