HOLE poll - Live Through This

violet is great and i adore courters for covering young marble giants but the killer here is doll parts

Never could and still can't really get into "Doll Parts," but I'm sort of obsessed with "Miss World" right now. I love the great up-the-stairs/down-the-stairs guitar riff.

One of the first 3 tracks. I saw Hole at Reading '95 where they opened with Plump & Miss World and they kicked ass, but then they just fell apart after those songs and the rest of the set was a shambolic mess.

Rock Star v. Credit in the Straight World. After the football I'll have to listen to this record again. Anyone ever done a Kurt v. Courtney thread? I'd so vote Courtney.

I haven't heard this album, but I've always really liked Violet.

Why isn't Olympia on this? Wait - was it a hidden track? I can't remember. Anyway, that's my favorite and I can't vote for it. boooooooooo.

I must begrudgingly admit that I like the riff on "Violet," but I strenuously doubt that Courtney wrote it.

Why isn't Olympia on this? Wait - was it a hidden track? I can't remember. Anyway, that's my favorite and I can't vote for it. boooooooooo.

― ENBB, Sunday, May 3, 2009 8:51 AM (15 minutes ago)

Actually, it is. Listed as "Rock Star" on the sleeve, though, due to a last second song switch before it was released (and I guess it's never been changed?).

The song is called Rock Star - there's an alternate version on the Miss World single, and it's still called Rock Star there. Unless that's a mistake as well.

o rly? I was just going off info from the wiki page. I should sooooo know better by now.

Ha, shows what I know. OK - voted!

"Olympia" (in reference to Olympia, Washington) ... To clarify, a song named "Rock Star" was removed from the final track listing and was replaced with "Olympia", but the artwork had already been printed. The original "Rock Star" can be found on Jabberjaw Compilation: Good to the Last Drop and various bootlegs.

^^^ wiki bit

Yeah I just read that - I guess they renamed Olympia as Rock Star which confuses the issue a bit. I'd never heard there was another song called Rock Star before.

The Rock Star on Miss World is definitely the Olympia one, cos I've got it.

The second side = victory lap.

for a few months after this came out i probably averaged listening to it twice a day. still love it. my first thought is "plump," but "softer, softest" and "gutless" tempt me too. and "olympia/rock star".

How on earth can some people still think she "stole" riffs or needed Cobain's help when Nirvana never produced anything this tight, smart, and intense?

this album is so gooood

Sure is.

when Nirvana never produced anything this tight, smart, and intense?

also that COVER

Pretty On The Inside is better

i probably like this better than any nirvana album, although it's a close (and unnecessary call). i definitely think that at their respective bests, courtney is a better lyricist than kurt was.

oops just ignore those parentheses...

also, the best 5 or 6 songs on celebrity skin are probably my favorite thing courtney's done, even though i think this is a better album overall.

I voted for "Violet", the one song that's a real keeper for me from this album; the rush into the chorus is still thrilling.

I just listened to this album all the way through for the first time in many years, and I guess it's tight, inasmuch as it bashes and yells without much variation. But after 12 songs the singing just bores me: the monotone talk-sing goes on and on, mostly flat, out of tune: maybe that's the artistic point, but it's not something I can love. The guitars and drumming don't redeem the poor singing, either.

I still don't get what happened (musically of course, I remember the rest) between this and Celebrity Skin, which I absolutely love and listen to all the time still.

definitely think that at their respective bests, courtney is a better lyricist than kurt was.

otm

'Doll Parts' has the most brilliant lyrics, imho.

'I want to be the girl with the most cake
He only loves those things because he loves to see them break
I fake it so real, I am beyond fake
And someday, you will ache like I ache
Someday you will ache like I ache'

i mean, 'i fake it so real i am beyond fake' is almost a stupefyingly good pop lyric.

i like it

it's an important step beyond teenage misunderstood misanthropy

violet is rly hard to fuck with here, but i agree that doll parts is as well -- the tired pain in the vocals is pretty jarring

i remember when i would put this on around my mom, she'd hear violet and go "really, don't you think this woman is a genius?"

aw i love this album

was just listening to "rock star" in the car.

soft spot for "jennifer's body"

i definitely identify people irl as wanting to be the girl with the most cake all the time.

maybe i will vote for "softer, softest"

fuck, apparently this didn't survive one of the cd purges of my poor student years. oh well a used copy should cost like 3 bucks right?

my first instinct on this poll is miss world but i want to hear the whole thing again.

love this album. am leaning towards 'softer, softest', although 'asking for it' is kicking my ass at the moment; this rarely left my walkman for a few months back when it came out, so listening to it again is like revisiting that era in a really vivid way. the chord-changes of 'asking for it' are really slaying me right now.

Burn the witch...the witch is dead...burn the witch....just bring me back her he-eeee-ead!!!

Wait, Rock Star isn't really Rock Star? I didn't know! That's my fave moment on the album -- WE EVEN FUCK THE SAME -- so I guess I'll vote for faux Rock Star.

i probably like this better than any nirvana album, although it's a close (and unnecessary call). i definitely think that at their respective bests, courtney is a better lyricist than kurt was.

― would you ask tom petty that? (tipsy mothra), Sunday, May 3, 2009 9:18 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

oops just ignore those parentheses...

― would you ask tom petty that? (tipsy mothra), Sunday, May 3, 2009 9:18 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

also, the best 5 or 6 songs on celebrity skin are probably my favorite thing courtney's done, even though i think this is a better album overall.

― would you ask tom petty that? (tipsy mothra), Sunday, May 3, 2009 9:19 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

QFT... strenuously hoping we'd disagree on best 5 or 6 songs on celebrity skin just because otherwise i can delegate all future posting to you

prolly Asking For It or Softer, Softest...

ah fuck it, definitely Asking For It. entire song it OTM.

Everytime that I sell myself to you
I feel a little bit cheaper than I need to
I wiil tear the petals off of you
Rose-red, I will make you tell the truth

Was she asking for it?
Was she asking nice?
Yeah, she was asking for it
Did she ask you twice?

Everytime that I stare into the sun
Angel dust and my dress just comes undone
Everytime that I stare into the sun
Be a model or just look like one
Well Ill rock it to the end
Do you think you can make me do it again?

Was she asking for it?
Was she asking nice?
Yeah, she was asking for it
Did she ask you twice?

If you live through this with me, I swear that I will die for you
And if you live through this with me, I swear that I will die for you
Was she asking for it?
Was she asking nice?
Yeah, she was asking for it
Did she ask you twice?

ps is this the thread where we anticipate nobody's daughter some more?

ha i was going to ask what the 5-6 best songs on celebrity skin are. would probably vote "awful" in that poll. that would be an easier poll.

"i tell you everything / and hope that you won't tell on me" is a great lyric. <3 courtney 4eva.

celebrity skin
awful
malibu
reasons to be beautiful
boys on the radio

maybe?

lol I agree completely. add "heaven tonight" if we go to six.

i was going to say!

upon reflection, i would be a much awesomer ilx0r if I delegated all of my posts to you and tipsy mothra

johnny fever, you're officially on the hook for celebrity skin and america's sweetheart polls after this

I've only heard the singles from Celebrity Skin, and I've never heard America's Sweetheart or any of the Nobody's Daughter demos, so one of you guys can handle those.

I never cared to check out any album tracks off this one, but I'll use the results of this poll for a few recommendations.. I certainly hope the top 3 doesn't turn out to be "Miss World" "Violet" and "Doll Parts" because if that's the case I won't bother.

(and really, is it that hard to write a song in the Nirvana style?)

And do it just as well? Absolutely.

violet

also.. gutless, miss world, jennifer's body are favorites of mine right now, but really, i love the entire record to pieces & have since 1994. it just kills me that court's made so few records ever since. celebrity skin is pretty great though.

The album tracks SLAY.

How well does Celebrity Skin hold up? Rob Sheffield calls it a disastrous L.A. cocaine album on part with Rod Stewart's Body Wishes and Stevie Nicks' Rock a Little. I went from liking it a lot to putting it in my closet for years...until this pose.

I've never heard America's Sweetheart

I have. And I still want my 40 minutes of life back.

I remember hearing "Malibu" on the overhead music in a TJ Maxx once and asking my friend what the fuck had happened to Hole. However, I'm sure I'd like it now. I was an asshole snob in my early twenties.

Playing it now. The chord changes on most songs are boring, although Love's lyrics are some of her sharpest. "Playing Your Song," "Dying," and the title song are the keepers.

of course, the 'violet' video is gone from the youtubes. one of my favorite video ever. so cool. all of hole's videos were good, i still remember seeing 'miss world' right when it came out on 120 minutes.. <3 <3 <3

ok i haven't given a rat's ass what rob sheffield thinks since 1994. er, no offense, but he's one critic, i disagree

None taken! It's an opinion.

celebrity skin is all good, i'd vote for.. 'boys on the radio,' 'malibu,' title track, 'petals,' 'dying,' 'awful,' 'hit so hard'.. 'petals' is often overlooked but one of the best IMHO. never been real crazy about 'heaven tonight'

There's a track that's a dead ringer for the Pumpkins' "Disarm."

The mixed way up high guitars are wearying on most of this.

i'd feel bad if rob sheffield read me being a hater is all. it's just.. generally i did care a lot abt what spin magazine writers thought from 93-95, and on the one hand learned a lot about music (we didn't have any decent record stores where i grew up, just had to search through spin/alt press, and also raygun.. i loved raygun). on the other hand.. learned to be a real asshole about music i liked! took me years and years to get over that.

you mean 'northern star'? that >>>> 'disarm'

courtney was such a great lyricist then, though. billy pumpkin i always had to tune out whatever he was saying if the guitars didn't, but when that mellancollie album came out.. ok, HATE.

i still love the fuck out of celebrity skin AND america's sweetheart. alfred, don't know what your listening rig is but celebrity skin rewards headphones. listen for the trem on "boys on the radio"...

it would be worth all the coke i'd have to do to make a record half as good.

@daria she still is! i think! maybe!

lotsa good stuff on sweetheart... not wild about what i've heard from nobody's daughter but full of faith.

+ her twitter is a traet

I'm about to "obtain" Celebrity Skin and give it a whirl. It'll be nice to hear and I can go into the eventual poll for it as an informed voter.

Kinda torn between "Violet" and "Asking For It" on this one. Even the Kurt duet version of the latter is pretty great as well.

I dunno. Celebrity Skin sounds all formulaic and sterile to me, even now (maybe even more so now). Still only half way through it, so maybe the back half redeems it?

that's kind of what i thought when i gave it its whirl

nah, if awful doesn't do it for you the rest prolly won't either. it helps to get comfortable with the notion that it's going for fleetwood mac.

Part of the problem. I love Fleetwood Mac, and this just pisses me off (not that it ever even gets really close).

alternatively, you could turn "reasons to be beautiful" up

man i love the sound of celebrity skin. i just think the songwriting doesn't hold up as well overall (my favorites on it are pretty much the ones mentioned above). and maybe the sound wouldn't make as much sense to me if it weren't coming on the heels of live through this -- if it was just somebody's first record, maybe the airbrushing would be too much. but as "courtney love's l.a. coke-rock record," it has a great gleaming edge, from the title on down. when it came out i started trying to write a review but gave up because i couldn't figure out what to say. but i remember the first line was, "courtney love is fucking with us," which is still how i feel about it and why i love what it was at least trying to do.

interesting. when i first heard it i thought she was fucking with herself.

yeah it may help to remember that in between recording live through this and celebrity skin she'd buried a husband, moved the band and the Courtney Love Show to LA, surprised everyone with totally credible performance in a critically-lauded major studio picture etc etc and there was a genuine kind of hold-your-breath-and-drop-the-needle feeling, or at least there was if you'd been as obsessed with live through this as i had been, like wtf is this thing gonna be and it was... as sharp and self-absorbed as ever, but also shiny and... fun, which was sort of the last thing anyone expected given everything plus that live through this had basically been a riotgrrl primer in mainstream drag...

i dunno, i think it's weird that what she decided to come up with after all that sounded so fuckin cute

oh make me over
i'm all i wanna be

i dunno, i think it's weird that what she decided to come up with after all that sounded so fuckin cute

― Surmounter, Sunday, May 3, 2009 10:19 PM (24 minutes ago)

I believe she anticipated this criticism:

Let's start a fire! Let's start a riot!
Yeah, it's awful
It was punk
Yeah, it was perfect
Now it's awful

I haven't heard America's Sweetheart since it come out and hadn't really acquired a love for Courtney at the time, is it worth hearing?

Ended up voting Credit in the Straight World.

"gutless" for best song, "doll parts" for favorite song

How on earth can some people still think she "stole" riffs or needed Cobain's help when Nirvana never produced anything this tight, smart, and intense?

― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, May 3, 2009 3:24 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

celebrity skin is my favourite hole/courtney album (and 'malibu' my favourite hole track) - her idea of selling out turned out to be more interesting and worthwhile than most people's ideas of integrity - but yeah, it does work best as a sequel/companion piece to this, which i also love. incredible how she conveys the impression of sprawling, uncontrolled, emotional/physical messiness but the songcraft and lyrics are just so sharp, tight and focused. will have to listen again to decide, but boringly will probably end up going for 'plump' (that fucking riff!) or 'doll parts' (those fucking lyrics!).

there's some really good stuff on america's sweetheart too. not the whole thing, but i guess people were anticipating it being this awful disaster so hard that they rushed to judge it before, i dunno, listening or anything.

my celebrity skin top 5: malibu, northern star, awful, petals, celebrity skin

How on earth can some people still think she "stole" riffs or needed Cobain's help when Nirvana never produced anything this tight, smart, and intense?

― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, May 3, 2009 3:24 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

― lex pretend, Monday, 4 May 2009 12:55 (44 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

because kurt wrote the damn thing?

and its bullshit to say its better than anything nirvana produced. get into the real world.

I must begrudgingly admit that I like the riff on "Violet," but I strenuously doubt that Courtney wrote it.

― Alex in NYC, Sunday, 3 May 2009 14:06 (Yesterday)

Violet is a great song and gets my vote but alex otm

and i dont think it really matters who wrote it as its a great song on a pretty good album thats performed well, but when ppl start saying courtney wrote it because nirvana werent capable of writing anything as good, then they can fuck right off.

when people start riding Kurt Cobain's dick, they can fuck right off and keep living in that fantasy world.

when people start riding Kurt Cobain's dick, they can fuck right off and keep living in that fantasy world.

yeah that's courtney summed up.

You learned it from watching her?

is that the best you can come back with?

I'm too busy learning how to steal Cobain's riffs.

because kurt wrote the damn thing?

― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, May 4, 2009 8:43 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

lol why do people say this? what is the evidence for it?

and i dont think it really matters who wrote it as its a great song on a pretty good album thats performed well

seems like you care a little bit dude

i never suspected really strongly that Kurt had a big hand in the album but when that version of "Asking For It" turned up w/ him all over it (and making it sound very much like his song even though the album version had no songwriting credit to him), i definitely felt like that charge had a little more weight to it.

either way this is a dope album and i'd say i like it about as much as any Nirvana album.

yay, another courtney thread where ppl can't resist informing us that kurt wrote the songs! it's pretty astonishing to me how many people were hanging around with kurt and courtney back in the day, like thousands of people, who were present when the songs were written and would know. it's so weird to me. because nobody actually knows, and why authorship is so important i don't know, and why it gets used to throw accusations at her, i don't understand that either. maybe she wrote parts of nirvana songs! there's no way to tell.

I don't think that Live Through This sounds like it was written by Cobain at all. Like, if Nirvana was to play one of those songs it wouldn't sound like a Nirvana song, it would sound like a cover.

While Kurt was pretty good and all, I have to wonder if he had the songwriting chops to author an entire record of songs outside of his usual style.

well, there are a shitload of crazy people out there who can't accept that such an openly suicidal guy committed suicide and blame her for his death, so go figure. again, great album regardless of who wrote it, but even the slightest ambiguity about the authorship is at the very least interesting to ponder, considering that a) it's a bit hookier and more unabashedly pop than anything Nirvana did and b) CL never came close to topping it, regardless of anything Celebrity Skin's fans say. so it would've been an accomplishment for either of them, it just would've been a different kind of accomplishment. you are right that we'd probably know more definitively if Kurt did write the whole album if that was the case, though -- lord knows if he was bringing in half those songs to Nirvana practices, Dave Grohl would've had every reason in the world the last few years to go around telling people about it.

well, there are a shitload of crazy people out there who can't accept that such an openly suicidal guy committed suicide and blame her for his death

i would hope there's noone that crazy here on ILM

"Violet" vs "Doll Parts"

While Kurt was pretty good and all, I have to wonder if he had the songwriting chops to author an entire record of songs outside of his usual style.

His usual style? I personally think his songs were decently diverse.. especially comparing those few songs he wrote towards the end ("You Know You're Right" and "Do Re Mi") to the songs on Bleach..

"Kurt wrote Courtney's songs" is a decently stupid argument.. Didn't she write Pretty On The Inside? Why wouldn't she be able to write more songs? The only good argument I can think of against this is the supposed 110 tapes she refuses to release to the public containing KC's song ideas that were never used.. I would have to guess "Asking For It" was probably one of these, but "song ideas" and "songwriting" are two different things. Anyone can come up with an idea..

i don't have any problem stipulating courtney as a collaborative songwriter, whether it was with kurt or eric erlandson (who somehow people forget has co-writing credit on most of these tracks) or billy corgan or whoever. but she's the dominant force, in the sense that the songs sound like her -- her words, her aesthetic choices, etc. which is why i've never understood the who-wrote-what debates, because it seems absurd to question that courtney is the guiding artistic voice behind the hole albums. it sure wasn't any of those other people.

i think what tipsy said is fair

I'm okay with that argument, with the exception of "Malibu" which I'm pretty sure is 100% Billy Corgan.

Didn't she write Pretty On The Inside?

yeah, but isn't LTT a pretty big leap in songwriting from that album? i'm not saying, i'm just saying.

Also: I never understood the argument for doubting her input on LTT because she never made another album this great. The history of punk and post-punk is filled with one-album wonders.

yeah, but isn't LTT a pretty big leap in songwriting from that album? i'm not saying, i'm just saying.

― cumlord millionaire (some dude), Monday, May 4, 2009 9:12 AM (21 seconds ago)

eliot improved with prolonged exposure to pound's critical judgment, but he still sounded like eliot. just sayin'.

which is to say, don't forget the significance of coterie politics - LTT and POTI were written and recorded for different audiences, not to mention with different budgets and expectations

at the time, LTT felt like a pretty pop move tbh

still does tbh

nevermind is a pretty huge leap from bleach too. shit happens.

really i'm not making a case for either side of the argument, just saying both have enough ammo that we should be happy with a stalemate

^^ everyone knows butch vig and chris cornell wrote at least half of nevermind

songwriting improves all the itme, without stealing

and spoonman's based on kurt's teenage street performances

songwriting improves all the itme, without stealing

It also improves WITH stealing (see, for example, the transition from medieval to renaissance to baroque and how various chant tunes from the first are used and extrapolated upon in the second and third).

but srsly big change between bleach and nevermind: grohl

i don't really care that much, just sayin, seems like a pop-psychology explanation for how good this album is

but srsly big change between bleach and nevermind: grohl

also: butch "butchie" vig

My point is that stealing isn't automatically bad; you still have to produce something good from the source material you're using. The entire Courtney argument seems silly to me.

yeah i don't like Hole that much but i really don't care who wrote her songs and speculation that Kurt did is boring and is one step away from suggesting she killed him

word

lennon, mccartney and jagger all kinda suck solo. what's up with that?

Those egomaniacs need other egomaniacs to foil them?

good song they stole:

Those egomaniacs need other egomaniacs to foil them?

― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, May 4, 2009 9:41 AM

YES! and to set the bar a little higher, because they will sneer at you if you come with weak shit.

love that version of 'gold dust woman'. court was having a bit of a goth moment at the time.

i'm a big fan of the unreleased (until 'my body the hand grenade' came out) - 'old age', also 'my beautiful son'

phonebill song! YES

doll parts.

Killer 4-song segue at the end of my old Best of 1994 mixtape:
Hole - "Asking For It"
Neil Young - "Sleeps With Angels"
Nirvana - "Where Did You Sleep Last Night?"
Robbie Robertson - "Twisted Hair" (a recitation over heavily slowed-down cricket drone, very eerie as it fades up under the dying applause of "Where Did You Sleep")

"courtney love's l.a. coke-rock record,"

If that's the sound of Celebrity Skin (which I don't deny), then how would you describe the harsh, pinched sound of America's Sweetheart? It's like a chromed version of the original mix of Raw Power.

if you go by the tabloid incidents, that would probably be her downtown crack record.

i'm a big fan of the unreleased (until 'my body the hand grenade' came out) - 'old age'

yeah, "old age" is great.

ha, i forgot about "be a man." pretty feminist song for the soundtrack of a mainstream football movie...

"Violet" vs "Doll Parts"

― the freakish wonder of nature that is "Beat Me" (HI DERE), Monday, May 4, 2009 3:38 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i don't have my copy of hand grenade anymore, but i loved 'old age', i think - is it the same song as is on the nirvana box set? because i love that version too.

Old Age was my favourite Hole track at the time. Olympia (aka Rock Star apparently) a close second so I'll vote for that.

dont see how anything but violet could win this imho

because kurt wrote the damn thing?

― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, May 4, 2009 3:43 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Kerr is apparently stumping hard for the Geir-of-the-year trophy here. ;^)

i'll just say that this is probably my favorite hard rock album of the past fifteen years.

oh, and how exactly did Cobain "write" it when he was pretty much livin' in junk heaven at the time (and complaining about not being able to write songs anymore to anyone who would listen).

and if Courtney ripped off his song ideas, so what? that just makes her a brilliant thief, afaic--kinda like Zeppelin and the Stones in fact.

A lot of strong contenders, but I'll go with Miss World

btw started a while ago a thread on Celebrity Skin:

Recommend me something similar to Hole's 'Celebrity Skin'

It's a nice version of Credit, but on the (w)hole they don't cut it for me. Going into acting was a smarter move.

i've heard from "sources" close to kurt cobain that he wrote most if not all of live through this.

however, i don't think it's a big deal.

The problem with anonymous sources.

ok then, the melvins

however, i don't know what the big deal is.

I have been thinking about this and sort of wish I could change my vote. As much as I love Olympia/Rock Star I think it would have to be "Violet". That song kind of is the album I think.

xp, it doesn't influence my enjoyment of the music, but obviously, it renders courtney far less interesting in my eyes. not that i believe anything. i just believe in the songs, themselves.

some of kurt's best work imo rip

I'm amazed at how much I like this album now considering how much I once hated it. I've listened to it at least once every day since I started the poll. Dang!

If Cobain wrote the songs, why are they credited to Hole instead of just Love? If it was important to her that people think that she wrote the songs without his help, why credit the whole band?

Also - the fact that there is a controversy about it says something about what people think of songwriting. She presumably wrote the lyrics, sang the melodies, shaped the songs with her voice, and a lot of other people were involved in how the record sounds. And if someone else wrote the chords and the basic melody, is that really "writing the song"? These are, like, Ds and As and Gs and the tunes are very simple-- I think those elements are a comparatively small part of what makes this record great, in any event.

Lyrics are ALWAYS secondary, to me at least. The music itself is the songwriting.

But having this argument is a pointless exercise.

And I don't really believe now like I did then that Kurt had much to do with writing these songs.

So I've been listening to this all week and have definitely changed my mind for real - it's Violet all the way.

i suppose it's got to be 'violet'. kind of a top heavy album this one.

definitely that or asking for it. or softer, softest...

kind of a top heavy album this one.

Maybe, but the second half is better than it seems.

just realized i hadn't actually voted in this. went for "plump" cuz it's always been a personal favorite. "i don't do the dishes/ i throw them in the crib."

( when i just now looked up the lyrics to "plump" on one of those lyrics sites, the associated advertising that came up was to do with baby feeding and baby in a bag.)

yeah... this is the one...

violet is a great song, but it's not a top-heavy album.

while i appreciate what mark is saying, i've always thought of songwriting as chords + melodies

tell it to oscar hammerstein.

listened to this album for the first time in years the other day, confirmed that "Gutless" is actually my favorite song, not just the one that gets stuck in my head the most.

this is still "Violet" vs "Doll Parts"

I liked "Doll Parts" when I first got the album but once it became the big hit I ended up really hating it...mostly because the chorus goes too long and repeats too many times, so it felt even more overplayed than it actually was.

Definitely 'Rock Star' for me - it's the only one that's readily accessible in my memory.

For all the Kurt vs Courtney stuff upthread, I'll say unequivocally that she's a better screamer: "GUT....LEEEEEEEE-ASSSS!!!"

i still sing violet as:

"I want to be the girl with the moist cake"

that's doll parts innit?

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I liked "Doll Parts" when I first got the album but once it became the big hit I ended up really hating it...mostly because the chorus goes too long and repeats too many times
This is pretty much how I feel about that song - it just goes on and on.

I think the right song won this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpiuppaAnsI

best thing ever.

Terrific album. Don't know what kind of fucking drug pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname) is on.

What is your problem?

Why would anyone revive a thread just to insult someone they dont even know.

i wonder what you would think if i actually disliked the album.

yeah jeez

Woke up with 'doll parts' stuck to my head. Today it has been my favorite song, I'll probably hate it tomorrow. I'm a bit ashamed that I once owned all the Hole albums.

"i think that i would die" is so so so good; how did it get no votes?

So glad to see "Rock Star" get all the non-single votes, that is a great song

so many great songs on this album

used to blast the shit out of this at uni, could never get enough of the sound of her voice, "violet" was like best steam release valve I had ever heard/felt up to that moment

never grew out of that feeling i got from this album, it *always* comes rushing back every time I hear it

was celebrity skin ever polled?

why would anyone be ashamed of owning all the hole albums?

they suck

you suck

Shit through you

"Plump" – 2:34

this album is so, so good.

man, what a weird thread this was.

Watched the Courtney solo performance from HFStival on youtube not long ago. I hadnt gotten into her at the time and was on hella acid at the show so at the time, I was just kinda in awe of the spectacle but also waiting for it to be over. So so these years later and I love this album amd watch this youtube and find out she played Softer, Softest, which is one of my favorite songs, but I was such a shit-for-brains that I couldn't appreciate it at the time.

Fuckin "at the time" x 3

ok then, the melvins

"Together we could rape the universe" (omar little) wrote this at 2009-05-05 20:32:49.000

The fuckin Melvins...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcHXrd5Dgy0

see also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EwyOT1G6Ik

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZycEZpvWcw

I think Celebrity Skin fits her persona a lot more than Live Through This. I'm looking forwarding to 20th anniversary release with Kurt's demos though; or will we need to wait until the 30th anniversary for that?

very much would like to flag anyone who invokes kurt from now on itt
i'm a huge Nirvana fan but that shit pisses me the fuck off

This album is magnificent.

i have been listening to it this morning, feeling it so much

very much would like to flag anyone who invokes kurt from now on itt
i'm a huge Nirvana fan but that shit pisses me the fuck off

this. perhaps it's possible to argue that kurt wrote this album without it being on some level a position informed by misogyny, but i don't know how.

GUT
LEEEAAAHHHSSS

I DON'T DO THE DISHES
I THROW THEM IN THE CRIB

very much would like to flag anyone who invokes kurt from now on itt
i'm a huge Nirvana fan but that shit pisses me the fuck off

corgan too. it's not like there's 14 layers of ebow on Malibu wtf

i would like to flag anyone who invokes corgan on the whole board (not you Ned)

Oh please, hating on Courtney Love doesn't make on a misogynist. Nobody really thinks Kurt wrote LTT; if he did, it would have been a lot better.

Gonna listen to some Bikini Kill now.

lol

Oh please

i listened to this record way more than i listened to any nirvana record

Nobody really thinks Kurt wrote LTT; if he did, it would have been a lot better.

Yeah, I wish he had written it, because as it stands it's a pretty mediocre album IMHO. I revisited it for the first time in ages today, and my opinion has not changed. Even the best songs seem fairly half-assed musically and vocally, though arguably the lyrics are redeemable.

Even the best songs seem fairly half-assed musically and vocally

how so?

His hearing went with the polio.

hole troll

gotta pay the troll toll

if you want to vote in the hole poll

would've voted for "miss world" which has probably gotten stuck in my head at least once a week ever since i heard it.

courtney does seem like kind of a jerk tbh, though not necessarily much more so than any other rock star.

I didn't hear this album until way after the fact so it sounds really fresh to me, definitely one of my favourite '90s alt-rock records. The entire first side is gold.

how so?

it has the overall tenor and musicianship of an angry and somewhat untalented teenaged singer-songwriter at an open mic ("I'm miss world!! Somebody kill me!!"). Though it has a lot of energy, it doesn't seem very well-developed or musically interesting. It gets by on force of personality, but there are tons of bands that do this thing better, IMO.

there are def bands that did this better (Bikini Kill namedrop otm)

Bikini Kill making an album as commercially geared as Live Through This would've been something to hear.

Watched the Patty Schemel doc the other night -- sort of sloppy and repetitive (Patty gets on drugs, Patty gets off drugs, Patty gets on worse drugs...) but a lot of great stuff in it. And there's some poignance in realizing that her real deep-end dive into crackhead homelessness came when Michael Beinhorn bullied her out of drumming on the Celebrity Skin sessions.

Bought the CD for $2 at a record show last weekend. Someone taped it for me when it came out, and I burned a homemade copy when I could do that, but this is the first time I've actually owned it. Forgot how much I love this, almost as much as "Violet" or "Miss World" (no video, I guess):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WxqJ4zKBH8

I got a free copy of the 33 1/3 book and gobbled up every word in spite of not really wanting to relive those days.

I'm guessing it was made during a couple of years that were as tumultuous as what produced Exile, Tusk, or other similar albums.

I dunno about that but it was a rough time to be a young woman.

there's a 33 1/3 about live through this? i need to get that!

Ohh, thanks for the heads up. I've been on a huge Hole kick the past couple of weeks. Especially playing the hell out of that Courtney single from last spring.

For the longest time 33 1/3 ' s weren't available for nook and kindle, but it looks like they are now.

Patty Schemel's new memoir Hit So Hard is really good. Has some new nuggets and insights into early days of Hole & last days of Kurt Cobain (specifically the March '94 intervention), but mostly it's a really great exploration of addiction and recovery. The rockstar largesse may be familiar but Schemel is candid and blunt in a way that other recent rock bios & memoirs I've read haven't been.

I thought you revived the thread to post the Bowie/Love story.

Yeah, the addiction aspects of that book....man.

Eventually I'll write a review of this and make the point that this seems like a book kids should have to read in high school as an object lesson about how drugs can really crater (and erase stretches of) one's life.

otm. so much more to the point than other similar addiction & recovery books - Scar Tissue, Duff's book - there's absolutely no glamorizing it. I really like that she dives right in, the first chapter is about how her family hosted AA meetings in their living room. "I've always been in recovery." No romance at all.

I thought you revived the thread to post the Bowie/Love story.

― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

Go on...

Holy fuck is Malibu an amazing song. Violet too. just saying, at this point.

Go on Alfred...

Yeah I love Malibu but I’m partial to any song that invokes California

I'm pretty drunk rn and forgot who encouraged me to listen to this but it is fucken amazing and better than any Nirvana album

It is both of those. Just listened to it again recently too, what a record.

GUT
LE-AHH-ASS

the greatest song of all time "softer, softest"

additionally, "i think that i would die" deserved 30 votes

GUT
LE-AHH-ASS

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn),

i think if i voted i voted for softer softest, but the whole album is phenomenal

Softer, softest deserved more than 1 vote but I’d still have voted Violet. Having said that it’s one of the few albums I can listen to all the way through

Oh please, hating on Courtney Love doesn't make on a misogynist. Nobody really thinks Kurt wrote LTT; if he did, it would have been a lot better.

Gonna listen to some Bikini Kill now.

The second side = victory lap.

― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, May 3, 2009 9

Everyone's the same
We look the same
We talk the same yeah
We even fuck the same

i walked into work (restaurant job) one day recently and someone had put this album on while we did sidework. i thought i was having a stroke for a sec until i adjusted, then i loled when two mature ladies walked in when we opened at 4:30 while Courtney screamed THERE IS NO MII-IIIIL-HILK a couple of times before someone put on the regular playlist.

i had a serious moment there for a sec

got it when i was 12 so it's hard to listen to objectively, but yeah it really holds up

i do wish that 20 Years in the Dakota was on here though - i would replace Plump or Gutless with it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVBzC7zL-OI

love that particular growl that's all over this album too where it's like the sum resonant frequency of her whole body or something

whenever i hear it i have vivid nemories of it blasting out of my dorm neighbor’s nearly-empty dorm room the day before semester holiday, echoing off the walls down the halls & playing it on repeat we sang at the top of our lungs as we packed up our stuff to go home foe holidays —- but i also realized the production has that great echo on it already so the whole album ~actually does sound like~ it’s bouncing off brick walls anyway

such a magic album, just wakes up your whole body with the first bar

It’s still a great album but it hurts to listen to in full - I do that rarely, because it jolts me back to a very specific moment of youth, a naïveté, a different person. (I was a junior in high school.)

No Nirvana LP hits me like this record does.

otm

i feel the same way, part of my reasoning is nirvana was already sort of trapped in amber by the time i heard them and hole was something that i could discover that was really striking (i knew violet, but to find out that there's a whole album of songs that are just as good??). but i also think the two big hole records are just better, full stop.

I do too. I'm a Nirvana fan — I saw them in concert! — but with the possible exception of Unplugged I've never worn out a Nirvana album the way I've worn out LTT and Celebrity Skin. (And also I think poor Eric Erlandson doesn't get enough credit for that, since his name is on most of the songs.)

Adding to the chorus that can't believe Softer, Softest got one vote.

I listened to this album constantly for a year or two in high school and bonded with it intensely, and then hardly ever again. Just got it out of my system (I rarely listen to Nirvana either).

I saw Hole at Lollapalooza 95, but never got to see Nirvana live.

Xpost

Chris L, I can kinda relate. The music meant so much - so much! - at a certain time.

Doing a live conversation about this record tonight for an event at the local “record bar,” will report back

bookmarked

I've been playing this record a bit after only knowing the hits.

I love how she has 4-5 different voices she employs here, slipping from one to the other on a dime.

Well I went to school oh.

I introduced a younger friend to this recently and she was like amazed by how visceral it is, and I was like, isn’t it fucking great?

Well I went to school oh.

― Benson and the Jets (ENBB),

ha ha

:)

this album is always like sonic smelling salts for me, just wakes me right the fuck up <3

i love it SO MUCH

lol same -- i also cannot listen to it idly, i have to pay attention and fully give in

has anyone listened to the BBC podcast CL did? a friend told me it was great but i haven't listened yet.

I kind of want to listen to it but also listening to Courtney talk is a little exhausting. Reminds me of some no-filter easily-diverted friends of mine, fun for a bit and then it doesn’t end.

Unlike this admirably succinct album! (Or compact disc, you could say.) No skips, banger-banger-banger, perfectly chosen cover, in and out in 38 minutes. Just so good.

i havent listened yet, but i really need to!

GUT
LEEEAAAHHHSSS

― first I think it's time I kick a little verse! (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:26 PM

Tipsy says it well. I’m interested in what Courtney Love thinks about things, but I’d rather read the transcript. (See also Paul Schrader, for slightly different aesthetic reasons.)