Timbaland Is The Best Producer Ever

I reckon the best producer ever would have more than one sound - being able to morph like that blue lass in XMEN to enhance whateva style, artist they r doin

I think he's a multi-trick pony, and developing too. And yes his popularity is important because he incorporates these neat production ideas - whether ripped-off or not - in a pop context. Got any Bhangra recommendations? I need to know whether to file this one under wow- good-insight or Budgie-sound-like-Braz-psych hipster-baiting (both worthwhile additions, naturally).

Geordie's best comment - "perhaps he needs a muse". I think so too. How romantic.

Won't write a WIRE primer or Geordie Racer's Rough Guide TO bHANGRA !!!! - get out there and mingle - no sitting in a ivory tower and rippin me off , nish bob compadre !!!

i LIKE tIMBALANDS STUFF BUT eTHAN'S RIGHT.

WORST PRODUCER/INFLUENCE ON MUSIC = aLAN MOULDER

and doesn't tim already have a muse, a little miss named aaliyah? (i say miss only because her kentucky marriage to r.kelly was annulled)

I think the needs-a-muse thing meant, works best when he has a muse. That leaves the Jay-Z stuff out in the cold a bit but I bet Jay looks grate in a dress.

tim the best producer ever? too early to say. i still give my vote to spector, but does anyone find it quite difficult comparing producers from different genres like, say, brian wilson, giorgio moroder, glyn johns, lee perry, dj premier, etc?

that said, missy's album, based on what i've heard, will be his bid for immortality and should likely solidify his position as the top producer of the current day.

Went into Reflex (record shop) this morning - assistant is singing 'Young Hearts Run Free' - world seems a better place.

or maybe thats coz I've phoned my brief - that NME guide to NYC may come in handy soon .

Interesting qn though and possibly thread-deserving: do you/should you hoard discoveries or do you like to tell people about them?

(I'd like to think one day my writing would be good enough to rip off -impotent delusions fill my day.)

some great producers who haven't been mentioned: kevin shields, stephin merritt, martin hannett, rza. i'm on the fence about albini.

Ginuwine - Pony

Aaliyah - One In A Million

Aaliyah - If Your Girl Only Knew

SWV - Can We

Missy Elliot - The Rain (Supa Dupa Fly)

Missy Elliot - Sock It 2 Me

Missy Elliot - Pass Da Blunt

Timbaland and Magoo - Up Jumps Da Boogie

Nicole - Make It Hot

Aaliyah - Are You That Somebody?

Jay-Z - Nigga What, Nigga Who?

Ginuwine - What's So Different?

Missy Elliot - All In My Grill

Missy Elliot - Hot Boys

Missy Elliot - Smooth Chick

Jay-Z - Come And Get Me

Jay-Z - It's Hot (Some Like It Hot)

Jay-Z (if you can find the original, otherwise it's Memphis Bleek) - Is That Yo Bitch?

Aaliyah - Try Again

Missy Elliot - Get Ur Freak On

Missy Elliot - Lick Shots

Timbaland & Magoo - Drop

Timbaland & Magoo - Roll Out

Aaliyah - We Need A Resolution

...But nearly everything he's done has been pretty fab, and if Missy's album is as good overall as every track I've heard so far, it's gonna be the definitive Timbaland (and Missy, for that matter) album.

the first song i heard that featured what we now would call the timbaland style was da bassment's cover of ready for the world's "love you down." it's credited to jodeci producer devante swing, who was responsible for putting both missy and tim on in the first place, but listen to that drum pattern and tell me that's not tim.

re-reading your list, tim, and thinking back, it strikes me as interesting how much his style changed from the time he did the original aaliyah tracks -- "if your girl only knew," which is probably the most conventional thing he ever did -- to when he did the remixes ("one in a million," "hot like fire"). and then how he went from the whimsy of productions like "are you that somebody?" and ginuwine's "what's so different?" to his quite-sophisticated current day work. one can only imagine what the future holds, particularly when it involves collaborations with beck and papa roach (!).

All that said, 2001 has been as strong a year for Timbaland is any other - "Get Ur Freak On", "Lick Shots", "Roll Out", "Drop", "Ugly", "Bubba Talk", "We Need A Resolution", "I Care 4 U", Petey Pablo's "I Told Y'all", "Hola Hovito"... that's a pretty good collection methinks. Of course there's been duds too, but I can't think of any producers who don't make duds regularly.

Also compare the neptunes who just sort of came from nowhere allovasudden then WHAM within the year.

I guess it just sort of bugs me when I hear a whole set of nothing but tim tracks on the radio -- I just want more variety in my pop listening habits. He should probably pace himself better, two albums & five other tracks a year, maybe?

I must admit that "I'm Real (Murder Mix)" and "Livin' It Up" are two of my favourite songs this year, though on the other hand so is Bubba's groove-to-beat-all-grooves monolith "Twerk A Little".

Personally I'd love to see more work done in the reggae style of Foxy's "Oh Yeah" - I like that track a lot, but I reckon it can be done a lot better too if done by the right people.

Plus, realising that the chorus of "It Wasn't Me" could be replaced with "Son of a bitch!" is one of those simple strokes of genius that come along but once in a lifetime. Any other specific "answers" that I should look for.

Garcia & Molina, Baker & Robie, Tony Butler, Andrew Loog Oldham, Tom Wilson, Timbaland, Swizz Beatz, C.S. Dodd, Leslie Kong, Duke Reid, Ish Ledesma, Zero Mostel, Giorgio Moroder, Frank Farian, Leonard Chess.

The list was off the top of my head, no real thought put into it, few questions asked. But to ask some questions now: who in the hell is Duke Reid? He's the name on some U Roy records; I have no idea if he's someone who was responsible for the sound, just the guy who financed it, or someone who got his name on records while other people had to work around him. Someone like Timbaland gets credit because he's obviously responsible for notes and timbres. I love his sound, but I've never been deeply emotionally moved by a Missy Elliott record in the way I've been moved by Roxanne Shante or Trina or many others; I credit their achievement to themselves rather than the producers, but why is that? In fact, I've probably liked as much stuff from Slip N Slide (Trina and Trick Daddy) as from Timbaland, but I never bothered even to find out who does the producing down there.

Andrew Loog Oldham? He insisted that Jagger and Richard write songs. How do you factor that in? But it's something that made him great. Tom Wilson? Was there method at work in "Like a Rolling Stone" and White Light, White Heat, or was he just someone with the sense (or sense of weakness) to lay low and let others make the noise? Chas Chandler: saw Hendrix and told him to come to England. Saw Slade and told them to pretend to be skinheads.

Like asking the question: What makes a good editor? My answer: someone who prints good pieces. That simple. But maybe that person was just lucky; happened to be hired at a place with good writers. I'm reading the Christgau tribute anthology, and there are so many people there saying "Christgau was the best editor I ever had" that I'm ready to scream. Christgau was good - for some people - at helping them say better what they were trying to say for him. I'm sure I couldn't do as well. But you know, the best editor I had was ME, the best editor Chuck had was Phil Dellio, etc., and Phil and I weren't taking things and making them better, we were just guys who found a format and asked questions that inspired people to send in good stuff. ILM is better than Rolling Stone. Does that mean that Tom and Mark and DG and whoever (apologies to "whoever" for not knowing your name) are better editors than Wenner and Levy (Joe did great work on my Dial MTV piece)? Yes it does! (Take that as a long explanation for my listing Tony Butler, a guy who did two classic songs ["When I Hear Music" and "Lookout Weekend"], cheap accompaniment, sweet singer, chintzy sound effects, and they were great. And I know nothing else about him.)

Who produced "Cars with the Boom," "Ice Ice Baby," "They're Comin' To Take Me Away," "Achy Breaky Heart"? (Rhetorical question, since I can find out easily enough.)

I havent seen pop music that innovative since David Bowie and Brian Eno in the 70s, it lands hip hop in a completely different artistic landscape. its just brilliant. hats off timbaland-

Lookout Weekend is one of the most amazing songs ever, and I wish they still made em like that.

>bBRRr<

lloyd banks - i'm so fly (dark, but smooth, not "snoopy track" evil. great reverbed guitar figure. flute hook helps the thing avoid sinking into murk. and tim's smart enough again to staccato-up the beat ever-so-slightly from chorus to verse. btw - "banks cooler than the other side of the pillow!")

petey pablo - "get on dis motorcycle" (its enchantedness has been much discussed elsewhere)

john doe ft. elephant man - "dat ting deh" (can tim do bad fake dancehall? "don't be cruel" is pretty much the only thing from "this is a test" that i still enjoy hearing. "wake up" excepted, alright. i think the hymn-bass is the best thing here. as i mentioned elsewhere, the clappity claps make this sound like a slightly less insistent "jump off". the doe verse on this is SO bad - "booby, this is booty. booty, this is booby", except when he namechecks all the elephant man dances. ele's just good enough to carry him, though. i like the stuttering siren bit sfx, reminds me of "the horn track" a bit.

and ll cool j - "head sprung", to a significantly lesser degree.

hahahahahahaha

(and i donno if you've heard the recent jacki-o promo but its full of timbaland knockoffs trying to do his recent tricks).

What year was "Get yr freak on"?

xposts a plenty

uh, no it doesn't really, not at all...

bloody silly quality to be wanting from music, anyway,
"innovation"...

should be in the corner with "influence" by now, surely

"Cry Me A River" is great (though Bubba's "Nowhere" is a better riff on the same idea) but it felt more like a "story so far" survey from Timbaland, like it should have been the one new track on a career retrospective box-set.

djdee yer Mantronix comparison is a bit dubious methinks.

I'm curious.

Or do you mean that the Mantronix -> Lil Jon lineage is dubious?

(I'm asking both quest's seriously).

mentalism to suggest that in '04 he has the kind of across-the-board effect he had in the late nineties when everyone was trying to sound like him

I agree with this, but doesn't that have to do just with the amount of time he's been out there and the amount of new music coming from different directions (crunk, dancehall, etc.) coming into the mainstream and hitting it big? There are new sounds on the pop charts but I don't see how you could suggest that timbo's current output doesn't continue to be "innovative" in the context of current pop music. I mean, his sound HAS changed in the past 3 years, I'd argue, to a GREAT extent.

Let’s face it, the rhythmic advances started to dry up at the end of ’01, and there’s not much that Timbaland can now do in that area that other producers in hip hop or dancehall (is Dreamweaver riddim gonna start invading hip hop clubs any time soon?) can’t. What he can do, and to some extent has been doing, is to hone in on the other components of his sonic equation – the instrumental, sampladelic and melodic components.

I think I agree. While his RHYTHMIC innovations may no longer be at the forefront, he's moved into other aspects of his music - but it's just as innovative, I feel.

Yeah dude upthread was right Innovative is a pretty worthless term.

I wonder about this paragraph:
It’s a narrative that is undoubtedly more “pop” than it is “hip hop”, more about imaginative and irresistible arrangements than really good beats. One suspects that the critical over-emphasis on the genotype, and corresponding embrace of This Is Not A Test and similar production work, is born of a desire for Timbaland to be more of a hip hop producer and less of a pop producer, peddling a consistent and thus easily assimilatable aesthetic whose purpose is to establish some sort of accumulative greatness through sheer persistant reliability – a DJ Premier style crafter of “quality” beats like quality rinds of pork (a related discussion that might be worth having: “How many Madlib beats do you really need?”).

Re: Premier.
I think that yeah in 2004 Premier's become that sort of "hip-hop producer" who just bangs out a reliable "quality" beat...but at the time of his height he had essentially the same position in the musical world as Timbo, minus the R&B collaborations - but he was consistently reinventing himself, creating unique, interesting, unimitatable moments - Come Clean, Mass Appeal - those are moments that seem to supersede the idea of a "hot beat" and are just great music period. At least that's the way it seems to me.

I'd argue that in the hip-hop world, Premier is the direct forerunner to Timbaland as far as the producer-as-auteur lineage goes.

To put it another way, it's not that current Premier or TINAT represent a triumph of "craft" over auteurism, but rather they represent the establishment of an auteur-theory for craft (or a craft of auteurism!) - tracks that feel like homages to the idea of bangers rather than actually being bangers.

cf. a producer whose best work is *blatantly* craft, and is all the better for it: Just Blaze - but I think that's because with his club tracks there's almost *no* craft/auteurism tension, it's just straight bangin' (ie. low brow not middlebrow).

PS. thanks for the positive feedback!

PPS. i thought the Mantronix/Timbaland comparison was dubious because it's not like Timbaland is actively being ignored/sidelined by the commercial hip hop community, or exists in anyway outside of it. He's there regularly producing tracks for lots of big artists, and there *are* quite a few third-party tracks that sound like him (eg. Scott Storch's production on Memphis Bleek's "Murda Murda" is like a better version of "Dirt Off Your Shoulder"). It's just that he's not a key trendsetter at the moment. Which is prob. because his three key styles right now - old-skool, dark minimalism and indian/dancehall - are fairly exhausted and/or adequately or better covered by other producers.

Oh but DAMN I can't wait for his collaboration with Lil Jon. You heard they're producing a track together?

(Also, should it feel like masturbating now when I enjoy a current Premier beat? - Pitch Black's "I Got it Locked" was so hot it makes me wish he dropped it in '96)

I'm sorry, but I find this dislike for This Is Not a Test bizarrely overstated... not to mention over-intellectualized. It's a middling Timbaland album that he probably knocked out too fast. Doesn't attain his customary highs, but doesn't fall so low either...

It's the first middling* Timbaland/Missy album after four classics; I think I'm entitled to feel a little bit let down when personal heroes stumble like that.

* You say "middling", I say "drab, mediocre, largely joyless and, except for maybe "Don't Be Cruel" and "Fix My Weave", not something I'll probably ever feel like playing again".

At any rate, I believe I'm yet to hear a *defence* of This Is Not A Test which amounted to much more than an attack on the hipsterism, over-intellectualisation or inflexibility of those (including myself) who were disappointed by it.

Jay-Z kicks game just like David Beckham.

succumbed to an accepted vision of what a "classic hip hop producer" is supposed to be

is much clearer :) Even if I still disagree. Has Timbaland ever really been treated as a "classic hip-hop producer" in the Premier sense? I don't think so. He's too eclectic, too tracky, too electronic, not macho enough. Missy still isn't really accepted by your purist hip-hop heads. I don't think This Is Not A Test is really even that old-school in the way that Under Construction was intended to be, really. It's too clubby (in the dance music sense).

There were lots of pretty hard to miss defenses of TINAT in this thread. None of them attacking anybody for anything.

I dunno, at the end of the day I agree that Timbaland isn't as hot as he used to be. I just hate this fantasy that somewhere in the world at any given time a cutting edge of musical innovation exists, and if you're not on it, you've fallen off and are no longer worth bothering with (although I admit I once thought that way myself).

Hm, you know how I felt a bit last year then (to an extent). I don't necessarily think that's being argued here by anyone at all, though -- the *perception* that such a thing is constantly important and that listeners must be aware of it and that favored musicians had best be on top of it, though, appears in various permutations in many spots. Nearly all of it is smoke and mirrors, though.

In that thread I went to pains to say that lack of innovation is not the main thing wrong with TINAT - it's a lack of good songs, grooves, choruses etc.

TINAT is less old-skool-as-party-costume than Under Construction, much more old-skool-as-viable-stylistic-option, or at least it presents itself as being such. It's not so much a shift away from the cutting edge as a somewhat pained grasping for a "higher" sense of cutting edge (again, the championing of "craft" over, like, fun sounds).

xpost - yeah the discourse around Timbaland in the last couple of years has definitely shifted towards the peterockist archetype.

Xpost

Sorry it's so badly written

Besides, it's difficult for mainstream critics to highlight Miss E as an example of "Tim's stylistic traits" when he was known for changing gears with every Missy album and also has the abovementioned productions knocking about that same year. His stylistic traits are also pretty much self-evident amongst his entire body of work, it's just that at the moment, Tim, Jess, I and others think he's settled into a rut of sorts, or as Tim has put it, allowed himself a genotype vs phenotype FITE and the genotype, which is emphasising qualities that could be seen as redundant, is winning way more often over the more interesting potential found in the phenotype (Tim, does that make sense?).

It's like when rock bands record stripped back guitar albums.

I just don't see it. Yeah, of course he's been canonized. And so he should be. But not for the same reasons/stylistic qualities as Pete Rock or DJ Premier. There's not a rhetoric of authenticity around Timbaland.

And where is this minimalist rut, outside of TINAT? Head Sprung? What else? It's more that he doesn't put out much since TINAT.

My idea of a rut is more that Tim is having a quieter one right now (in comparison to the past) but the stuff he's doing that's reaffirming his brilliance is etc etc.

'This Is Not a Test' easily could get status like one of the greatest "for sampling" album ever ... around 2015. :-) It was training of dancehall riddims in forms of spooky minimalistic beats without enough good vocal coverage of riddim. This is reason why featurings are more better then Missy solo. 'Don't Be Cruel' ft. Beenie Man, 'Keep It Movin' ft. Elephant Man. You should check again that diference in track flow and energy when Elephant is starting . Also 'Fix My Weave' has something deep inside. Yeah i have feeling that this is not a test is more unfinished announcement of Timbaland future stuff then this is not a test is not good enough. It is good but not groundbreaking balance between new/exciting/unhearing beats and pop market in its moment.

A lot of reviews of TINAT said stuff like "Timbaland comes correct those brilliant and totally unique edgy minimal electronic beats of his" - implying a couple of things simultaneously: that Timbaland is "dependable"; that he has a set aesthetic; that having a set aesthetic is a good thing; that the reason a set aesthetic is a good thing is that it exists in stark contrast to the mutable anonymity of the rest of hip hop (I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into such statements because I disagree with them).

This strikes me as largely similar to the way that Pete Rock, Jay Dilla, Madlib, RZA etc. have all been canonised for having an identifiable and (to a greater or lesser extent) consistent sound which is separate to the hip hop mainstream.

Whereas (and I'm reminded of Jess re Deliverance here), the majority of great Timbaland tracks these days are ones which might plausibly be produced by someone else - tracks which erase his signature and do something new.

Other rut Timbaland stuff: that Jentina track, most of Under Construction 2, Petey Pablo's "Break Me Off". I should note that I don't think this genotype has *won* the battle; just that it pops up slightly more frequently than the phenotype at the moment.

I did a mental T/S and put 'I'm Really Hot' against 'The Rain' and 'Get On The Bus' and could only conclude that 'IRH' could've been made the same year as 'GOTB' and that it was about as good as both the other tracks, but not nearly as weird and odd-grooving as them. Eh...

x-post - guess this ties in with part of bojan's post re: guest spot tracks.

Either way, I think the idea that "settling into a set aesthetic is good" is a very vague and general one under which to lump everyone from RZA to Jaydee! I suppose you're talking about auterism really... (although film auterism was all about tracking the hidden influences of directors present in the worst schlock Hollywood imposed on them, which doesn't translate to hip-hop producers ar all)... But don't "mainstream" producers get valorized too, anyway--Dr Dre is not exactly underrecognized...

gotta run

Yeah, Under Construction 2 did suck.

Dude Dr. Dre is totally Peterockist!

Barima - Lady Saw on Missy's "Hey DJ", and on Lil Kim's "Money Talks"?

This is not prima facie true but work with me.

The fact that Timbaland got hipster canon cred long before settling into a style (entertaining for a moment the idea that he actually has done so) also works against your thesis somewhat...

Like [x] = non-mainstream, [y] = consistent recognisable aesthetic, [z] = actually innovative tracks.

[x] gets you five points
[y] gets you ten points
[z] gets you twenty points

[xyz] gets you thirty five points! Timbaland wins!

I mean, even Lil Jon has some level of canon cred just because his sound is so identifiable.

Plus has Timbaland really been canonised as an individual? While he's seen to guide artists he works with his relationship with them is still symbiotic, and acclaim for his solo material is nowhere near acclaim for Missy/Bubba/Jay Z/etcetera's work with Tim - he's not stepped into the 'Brian Eno solo' realm yet, he's still very much part of Roxy Music, whereas Dre made the step over with The Chronic (his face on the cover of millions of albums sold). RZA, while acclaimed as a producer, has also similarly not quite crossed over as an individual, I don't think - by using third-person-remove personas like Bobby Digital he's managed to keep himself and his work at a meta-distance from each other, almost; it's The Wu who have been canonised over RZA, I'd argue.

And would we seriously doubt that he deserves to?

Maybe the math isn't that far off the truth... ;)

canonisation in and of itself is daft and pointless

Oh don't be silly. Canonization=collective memory, debate about what is good and worth keeping, blah blah blah

This is one reason why mp3s are your friend. Make your box set -- all you're missing are the liner notes.

I'm speaking about impact of milions selling units, not about 30 000 Greensleeves Diwali riddim album.

If I'm saying "This Is A Test", then it is very hard to place it in category of experimental beats album because everybody (market, critics, fans...) was expecting new pop-groundbreaking Missy's album and then there was 'This Is Not A Test' without pop song, with more experiments, with unfinished symphaty, with non finished taste in my mouth...

Generally, 2003 was funk dominated year with small appereances of dancehall styla . So what's happening now in hip hop is funk vs. dancehall feat. miami & old skool hip hop re-arrangment. Look Brasil stuff - Baile Funk. Millions users. miami synth bass based sex stuff.

Strongo had brilliant mind in last dancehall thread: "coolie dance does something scary to the ladies"....

Mr.DJ is bigger.

He's the Smart Hulk - of RIDDIM.

If I'm saying "This Is A Test", then it is very hard to place it in category of experimental beats album because everybody (market, critics, fans...) was expecting new pop-groundbreaking Missy's album and then there was 'This Is Not A Test' without pop song, with more experiments, with unfinished symphaty, with non finished taste in my mouth...

This is kinda confused - Missy albums always combine experimental beats with wide accessibility - it's why so many listen to them. And how can TINAT be hard to categorise as an experimental record when it possesses "more experiments"? Besides, 'Wake Up' could still work fairly successfully as a single.

As for 2003's lack of dancehall styles, that'd be because dancehall had to come up by itself to start getting assimilated.

You have to feel it and then to set your body in dance motion if music is making something weird to your brain and body.

I rock like a caveman!

Because it is normal that I made lapsus linguae when I'm writing in the office with lot of people around me. :-) It became usual that Missy's album is gonna be experiment which is very acceptable for wider audience. So you don't have to think about new experiments in Timbaland's work for Missy.

"I rock like a caveman!"

good to go! :-)

I think you mean "expect", but OK. Still, people do expect 'em and by Jess' account at least, 'Get On Dis Motorcycle' is apprently more experimental than half of TINAT, which offsets Tim's normal balance somewhat (Missy gets a bigger share of weird than most other artists Timbaland works with as standard)

Yes Tim has a recognisable aesthetic, but I think that very recognisability is based in how radically different so many of his productions are *from eachother*. Apart from an emphasis on unusual syncopated rhythms (and note that they're syncopated in *different ways*) there's not that much that unites "One In A Million", "Get Ur Freak On", "Is That Yo Bitch", "Gossip Folks" etc. etc. sonically. At the risk of sounding repetitive, Timbaland's best moments are when he strives to contradict the sonic expectations that he has built for himself.

The problem with the canonisation of Timbaland as I see it is not that he's undeserving or that canonisation is bad, but rather that inevitably it ossifies his official "good qualities" and is overly focuses on his "groundbreaking" work (with Missy etc.) at the expense of material like "Keep It Moving", "Get On Dis Motorcycle", etc. That's irritating in and of itself, but it also means that very specific positive qualities are increasingly absent from his officially notable work in favour of "important" sounding stuff.

I think I've now restated my argument about ten different ways (which is my fault not that of Nick, Bugged Out etc.). I think I've totally exhausted it.

Best list a few in case I've already got 'em...

He's got heaps of other great tracks obv but not in a critical mass like on these...

Yr a good man, Tim! Cheers!

The Ms. Jade album is mostly Timbaland and quite good too but I don't pull it out much. I never really got into her as an MC - Trife listing her as his number one fave female rapper astonished me.

The self-titled Aaliyah album is essential too of course for "We Need A Resolution" and "I Care 4 U" but the album's mostly done by other producers (who do an awesome job).

Thanks again!

It's like the whole "Rooty is half-classic, half-filler" argument, which everyone seems to agree on even though no-one can agree on which tracks are supposed to belong in which category.

Nick - tolerance of Ginuwine relies on a more general tolerance of smooth R&B lovermen crooners, but certain tracks act as a good gateway - "What's So Different", "Final Warning"...

It's like the whole "Rooty is half-classic, half-filler" argument, which everyone seems to agree on even though no-one can agree on which tracks are supposed to belong in which category.

Nick - tolerance of Ginuwine relies on a more general tolerance of smooth R&B lovermen crooners, but certain tracks act as a good gateway - "What's So Different", "Final Warning"...

re; filler - last night as I was assembling my new bed (I HAD A GOOD NIGHT'S SLEEP ON A BED FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE BEFORE CHRISTMAS! Well, not quite, but that's cos of fucking England...) I had Miss E... So Addictive on, and I skipped the two or three slower tracks, saying out-loud "dance!" each time. I think this is as much because I needed the momentum to get the bed finished before the football as because of any antipathy towards the actual tracks themselves.

re; r&b slow lovermen - I have no problem with the similarly rippled and loved-up D'Angelo, however HE DOESN'T HAVE THAT AWFUL FUCKING 'TACHE.

Ah, but I was talking about Miss E and Under Construction :) And in this context I'm using the term "filler" more as a relative term than a dismissal...

Miss E is my favorite Missy album, but Dog in Heat, Scream, Old School Joint, Take Away do kind of pale in comparison to the rest of it...

And on Under Construction, I feel the same way about Bring the Pain, Back in the Day, Nothing Out There For Me, Ain't That Funny, Hot, Can You Hear Me...

Whereas on TINAT, Keep it Movin, Dat's What I'm Talking Bout, Toyz, Let It Bump, Pump It Up, Don't Be Cruel, It's Real, while none of them top tier indelible signature work, are all better than tracks mentioned above and would fit very well as the bridge tracks between the 4-5 monsters on any other Missy album... TINAT just lacks the monsters, unfortunately.

But whatever. There's probably not much more to be said about this!

Anyway, here's my Timbaland box set:

Vol 1: Big Pimpin'

Are You That Somebody-Aaliyah
Get Ur Freak On-Missy Elliott
Ugly feat-Bubba Sparxxx
Hey Papi-Jay-Z
Oops (Oh My)-Tweet
One In A Million-Aaliyah
The Rain (Supa Dupa Fly)-Missy Elliott
Cry Me A River-Justin Timberlake
Try Again-Aaliyah
Work It-Missy Elliott
Pony (Remix)-Ginuwine feat. Timbaland
Clock Strikes-Timbaland & Magoo
One Minute Man-Missy Elliott
Ching Ching-Ms Jade
Big Pimpin-Jay-Z
Raise Up-Petey Pablo
I'm Music-Timbaland and Magoo

Vol 2: Come and Get Me

The Jump Off-Lil Kim
Are We Cuttin'-Pastor Troy
Snoopy Track-Jay-Z
Wake Up-Missy Elliott
Twerk A Little-Bubba Sparxxx
Roll Out My Business-Ludacris
It's Hot (Some Like It Hot)-Jay-Z
I'll Be Around-Cee-Lo
Ride Or Die, Bitch-Lox
Nigga What, Nigga Who-Jay-Z
Lobster & Scrimp-Timbaland feat. Jay-Z
Up Jumps Da' Boogie-Timbaland & Magoo
She's A Bitch-Missy Elliott
Dirt Off Your Shoulder-Jay-Z
Suga Walls-Jacki-O
Is That Your Chick-Memphis Bleek
Gossip Folks-Missy Elliott
Come And Get Me-Jay-Z

Vol 3: Hot Like Fire

Can We-SWV
If Your Girl Only Knew-Aaliyah
Hit Em Wit Da Hee Remix-Missy Elliott
Make It Hot-Nicole Wray
Same Ol' G-Ginuwine
4 Page Letter-Aaliyah
What The Dealio?-Total feat. Missy Elliott
Call Me-Tweet
What's So Different-Ginuwine
Hot Like Fire-Aaliyah
You Owe Me (feat Ginuwine)-Nas
Keep It Movin-Kiley Dean
Final Warning-Ginuwine
Get on the Bus-Destiny's Child
Beep Me 911-Missy Elliott
More Than A Woman-Aaliyah
Don't Stop the Music-Playa

Vol 4: Down South, Far East

Jimmy Mathis-Bubba Sparxxx
Gun Line-Petey Pablo feat. Kiley Dean
Hola' Hovito-Jay-Z
Heartburn-Alicia Keys
Bubba Talk-Bubba Sparxxx
Big Head-Ms. Jade
Disco Remix-Slum Village
Indian Style-Raje Shwari feat Timbaland
4 My People-Missy Elliott
Dirty Dirty-TLC
In the Club-DJ Clue feat Beanie Siegel
2 Many Hoes-Jay-Z
Indian Carpet-Timbaland & Magoo
Make Me A Song-Kiley Dean
We Need A Resolution-Aaliyah
Deliverance-Bubba Sparxxx
Indian Flute-Timbaland & Magoo
Slow Down-Jacki-O
(Oh No) What You Got-Justin Timberlake
Comin' Round-Bubba Sparxxx

I'm pleased to know someone else likes TLC's 'Dirty Dirty' (dark minimalism plus Indian Timba-styles) - it's one of the 3 best things to come out of that last TLC record ('Damaged' and 'Hands Up' (Richard X Mix) are the other two).

Argh Bugged I *love* "Dog In Heat", "Scream" (esp. for the cod-Jamaican stuff) "Back In The Day" (even if it's loved by the same people who love "Hey Ya" and often for similarly annoying reasons) and esp. "Bring The Pain", which I think is a really overlooked/underrated track - the interplay between Missy and Meth section is probably my favourite moment on that album, which is saying something.

You're possibly right though in your comparison between Under Construction and TINAT - the high points on the former help one get through the occasional filler moments, and eventually even appreciate them - like, I really like "Nothing Out There For Me" and "Hot" and "Ain't It Funny", but it took a while. That said, I can't imagine ever liking "Let It Bump" as much as those, but I better let it rest...

what the problem comes down to IMHO – there’s no chance in hell Timbo ’04 could knock out something like SWV’s “Can We”. I dare anyone to dig it out and tell me with a straight face that he hasn’t fallen off! that dreamy guitar strum, swoonsome ambient washes, cream-soaked chorus, the gently understated yet completely HORNY OUT IF ITS MIND two-speed beat bounce… oh my. it’s one of the sexiest records ever, and it’s such a fucking tragedy when you put it next to “This Is Not A Test” – where has all the WETNESS gone? interesting, isn’t it, how Timbaland lost that luscious feminine vibe over the exact time period as UK garage did on its way from 2step to grime.

still, I think “Pass That Dutch” is unfairly maligned – it’s a quality club banger, fun to dance to, and that’s all I need from a Missy single. One Minute Man > Get Ur Freak On > Pass That Dutch > Work It.

Bugged Out’s filler tracks that in my mind are anything but: “Old School Joint” (am I the only person on the planet who digs this one? that Venusian-atmospherics finale – so so gorgeous, tantalisingly fading into silence, never to be resolved), “Ain’t That Funny”, “Bring The Pain”, “Scream”.

Nowhere vs. CMAR go!

Mind Taker - you obviously haven't heard "Get on dis motorcycle"

i'm not feelin' "Get On Dis Motorcycle" :(

btw, has anyone heard...:
a) ...Terror Squad's "Lean Back"? the beat is, like, Scott Storch's tribute to doom'n'tablas-Timbo! (i am not impressed)
b) ...Brandy's new album? i picked it up today, Tim produced 10 or so tracks. first impressions: sadly, it's further proof that he's on his way down. the "Clock" sampling ballad ("Should I Go") strives to be epic but is rather dull and completely anticlimactic. it's even sadder when i imagine that Tim probably meant for it to be his "I Am Music" of '04. on the upside, there's only one annoying "The Jump Off"/diwali rehash ("Sadiddy"), and the rest, while of varying quality, never reaches "Turn It Up"-depths of direness. i've only listened to the whole thing twice, so far the Timbo tunes i'm really liking: "I Tried" (more epic Cry Me A River/Nowhere bizness, and there's an Iron Maiden sample! plus, Brandy sings about how she wants to hear some Coldplay, and then goes on to quote Coldplay's "Sparks! she's completely obsessed with Coldplay!!!), "Afrodisiac" (kinda like an uptempo track Tim'd pass on to Aaliyah if she were still alive), "Come As You Are" (the beat is - wait for it - indian minimalism! but, surprisingly, it gels quite nicely with Brandy's harmonizing).

Dear oh dear.

VERSE 1:
I'm standing on the edge of the industry
Wondering if it's all that important to me
To get my records back out there on the streets
It ain't like I'm hurting or anything
I'm to the point right now where money ain't an issue
I can roll where I want to, do what I wanna do
Tempted to leave it in my rear-view
Because this game ain't what I'm used to

CHORUS:
Should I go?
Should I stay?
I'm in control either way
Should I go?
Should I stay?
I'm in control either way
Should I go?
Should I stay?
I'm in control either way
Should I go?
Should I stay?
I'm in control either way

VERSE 2:
It used to be a few artists at a time
Now, even the veterans wait in line
Pre-mature release of these albums online
Makin' it hard for real entertainers to shine
If you manage to defeat all these odds against you
Keep doin' your thang 'cause I'm not mad at you
Just tryin' to figure out where I fit into
All of this now, or if I do

is she setting jane magazine interview transcripts to music?

Also, her track with Utada is around, it's OK. Her singing's good, but Tim isn't as inspired as he is on the better Simple Girl tracks. If anyone else has heard it, I have both 4 minute + and six minute plus+ mp3s and am not sure which one's supposed to be the right length, since I keep listening to 'Keep It Moving' and JC Chasez instead.

Ah, forget Timba ;-), it's all about Cut Copy for me right now (Tim, you check this out yet?).

I largely agree with this - certainly all his best productions of late have been really widescreen (which allows "Get on Dis Motorcycle" to be included). But I'm not sure if Brandy's album is a good supporting argument - "Afrodisiac", "Who Is She 2 U", "I Tried", "Focus" and "Come As You Are' are all good to varying degrees but they're a bit... compressed? There's not as much of the stretched out, drifty epicness of "Cry Me A River" or "Nowhere" or "Keep It Moving" (though "I Tried" comes close). "Should I Go" tries for it, but falls very flat. Maybe it's Brandy's fault - her sad-robot vocals are so melodically understated that she has trouble making big songs (I was very impressed that Kanye got her to sound so soulful on "Talk About Our Love" under the circumstances). That's why I thought that Rodney Jerkins robo-tech sound was quite good for her.

I am worried though that string riffs are gonna become as overused a weapon in Timbaland's armoury as handclaps or electro sounds. Somewhat ironically, after doing more than anyone to displace sampling's primacy in hip hop, what he really needs now is to resume the more openminded and restless sampling aesthetic which was the secret other half of the magic of his early work - listening to Supa Dupa Fly I find that the samples often stand up much better than the beats!

What about the Coen Brothers?

Seriously though, I'll take Spot from SST

A question on yr theory though:
Wouldn't guys like the Trackmasters and P Diddy et al be MORE about "craft" as opposed to auteurism? I think what's great about Timbaland is that he's largely kept the best of both worlds - the auteur who isn't churning out beats (like trackmasters etc) yet who can adapt to any artist and any mood and still sound inspired, keep doing new styles and using different aesthetics (as the trackmasters do).

Yeah there's a bit of a contradiction in my theory, but that's because the way critics talk about "craft" in relation to Madlib/Jay Dilla etc. is v. different to how they talk about the Trackmasters. Under this critical divide, Jay Dilla is an artisan in his private shop making quality products; the Trackmasters are suppliers for supermarkets. Like, it's okay to churn out your beats as long as you seem to have a slightly discerning air about the whole process, whereas if you work with J Lo you're obviously not very concerned with individual standards. I reckon the Trackmasters (say) don't get enough props under either craft or auterist criteria (and I think they can be more individual/creative/radical than they're given credit for), but it's not because they're one or the other.

Timbaland is different to both again - definitely in the auteurist camp, but his autuerism is a double-edged sword because unlike the Trackmasters he can't make more than a couple of the same types of beats without going downhill rapidly. Craft ain't a bad thing but it's bad to want Timbaland to slot into either the elitist or populist form of it because it's not where his strengths lie.

The irony is that the Trackmasters (although more often Diddy) get slammed by some people for not being auteurist enough, and then so many of the same people seem to want Timbaland to be *less* auteurist.

xpost - I agree! But I think that both Irv Gotti and Trackmasters both have identifiable, singular styles too! Sterling too thread to make the case for Gotti.

(or give me a trackmaster's example)

1. Aaliyah - One In a Million
2. Ginuwine - Pony
3. SWV - Can We
4. Missy Elliot - The Rain
5. Aaliyah - Are You That Somebody?
6. Jay-Z - Nigga What, Nigga Who
7. Ginuwine - What's So Different
8. Nas - You Won't See Me Tonight
9. Missy Elliot - Hot Boyz
10. Jay-Z - Big Pimpin'
11. Aaliyah - Try Again
12. Missy Elliot - Get Ur Freak On
13. Aaliyah - We Need a Resolution
14. Bubba Sparxxx - Ugly
15. Tweet - Oops (Oh My)
16. Justin Timberlake - Cry Me a River
17. Missy Elliot - Work It
18. Lil' Kim - The Jump Off

(77:13 - chronological)

Yeah I think you could make an argument for this, although something like "Jenny From The Block" is quite outside that mould.

But my other fave is the remix of Mya's "The Best Of Me" with Jay-Z. Gorgeous!

x-post

On mp3, yes...

any chance of getting you to post the tracklisting?

priceless.

Is this the craze that's been part of the pop charts for like 40 years that you're talking about?

As for his crossover appeal, listen to Junior Boys.

Whether Timbaland will then be able to change their style and produce completely different music styles will show how important their part in music history is. Like, if they are able to do a great job on the audio side when producing guitar based song-oriented melodic pop, then obviously they have proved they are a bit more than just of their time.

I'm sorry I'm bored.

i really dig what i've heard of the album though, "Exodus" is gorgeous. her japanese stuff was always more R&B-influenced, so this seems like a really good step.

I do think the stuff he did with Brandy is great. Not breaking any boundaries, but Come As You Are is as good as any Indian-inflected groove he's done and I don't think he's done anything quite like I Try before, with the orchestration.

You think 100% over The Batchelor? I'm waiting on the Petey Pablo album and Aaliyah's second LP to arrive before I can finish disc 2 (no MP3s - this is a double-posh superduper high fidelity CDR).

my favourite is that crackly nocturnal one with the queen samples, where him and his girlfriend break the springs on her mums couch.

petey pablo and ginuwine's "get on dis motorcycle" song roolz, though my fave on the album is "o it's on" - i like all the macho bullshit and aggresssion.

i wonder if timbaland won his bodybuilding contest in the end??

meanwhile dj rupture contextualising that dismal rich boy tune could well be the most risible thing i read all year

Haha I like that tune quite a bit, but the reader commentary on rupture's blog had to be ten times worse than whatever he wrote (mostly I remember him linking to a NYT piece.)

Also people who only like rap because of timbaland sound just as bad as J5 corny fuxxx to me.

Its weird to me that yr saying it about a producer because if you were talking about some conscious rapper I would understand - when rapper X was popular, shit had a conscience, man! But when it comes to producers!? When Lil Jon first hit, I would MUCH rather hear a new Lil Jon track than any of Timbaland's weaker formulaic shit (i.e. the non-"motorcycle" track on the petey pab album, i forget what it was called). And I feel like people are too quick to see Timbaland's genius as being INHERENT to his work, 'here's another glitchy bouncey track by timbaland, it is GENIUS' rather than seeing the almost novelty appeal of his out-of-left-field (best) tracks.

Not that I'm saying yr guilty of this per se, but thats what a statement like yours suggests to me.

-- Forksclovetofu (forksclovetof...), July 28th, 2005.

funny you should mention that, the ghost producer of that track is a friend of a friend!

obviously the hit rate has gone down, but what's to be expected of producers/artists/musicians? at what point is it ok to stop really moving forward and start tweaking (twerking) with the formula invented?

how many producers have invented the wheel twice?

Timbaland was consistently on form from 1996 to 2002 which I think is more than most people would have expected - Simon R first started warning that he'd lost it at the end of 1998!

1996-2002 seems a pretty fair assessment. For longevity it beats the Neptunes peak period of 1999-2003.

has he done anything at six minute plus length other than on the JT album?

I think there's the full version of 'Nowhere' on the second Bubba and maybe one or two on Indecent Proposal.

who is kiley?

she's the girl who sings the hook on bubba sparxxx's 'nowhere'

(i would go into a lot more rapturous detail but don't have the time right now! there is a thread on her somewhere)

Ick.

WTF?

:|

fixed.

Single of the year so far? I think so. Awesome stuff.

also,
Missy Elliot makes a bunch of b*lls*it
Missy Elliot makes a bunch of b*lls*it
Missy Elliot makes a bunch of b*llsh*t
Missy Elliot makes a bunch of b*llsh*t
Missy Elliot makes a bunch of hey check this out

i cant stand her music going in my ear
if you like Missy Elliot get the f**k out of here
i cant stand her music going in my ear
if you like Missy Elliot get the f**k out of here

srsly does any1 have 1 good bar she ever said besides YRFEMINIPL'AN'IET

also i sort of call takebacks on missy elliot diss. i saw her on cribs & she seemed like such a sweet lady w/this superweird materialistic visionary thing to her. wiggle that fat.

Don't know if this has already been posted, and I realize it's old news, though I hadn't heard some of these examples. I'm ambivalent but Timbaland's arrogance about the whole thing definitely is offputting. (I recognize the Warda song and probably still own a copy in some form. The Hennawy song also sounds familiar although I was never particularly into her.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X58UPPKDsY

Looks like I was listening to Timbaland before there was Timbaland.

Diamanda Galas goes off about it (which is what triggered this post)--scroll down:

http://www.diamandagalas.com/letters.htm

damn, mia got nothing on her

"I can take it anyway, HAHA so give it up, bitch. This is a RAPE. RAPE MUSIC, you know. HAHA HAHAHA. Split that beaver and the butthole, too."

k

wait...an R&B producer used samples??~ my world is shaken

isnt this like the oldest news of all time? no shit timbaland's appropriation has been easily shrugged off before and diamanda is awesome but quite obv a headcase

this -- is -- an -- outrage

maybe sampling would help him out of the current state of wackness he's been in for the past few years. used to worship the guy as a producer but he fell off...hard.

how long ago was 'the way i are'?? thats the last one that really was A++ i think.

saying he 'fell off' is kinda ridic, he had one of the longest hot streaks of any artists ever, its like ... what artists that u listen to keep upending shit more than a decade deep??

recent discussion here: I AM STILL SO FUCKING APPALLED: Rolling Worst Songs of 2010

it's not ridiculous. have you even heard Shock Value?

the first one, which had 'the way i area' which is one of his best songs ever?

his new album might be a total piece of shit for all i care -- i didnt even check it because lol ppl still talking about him in 2010 -- im just saying its not like ppl go "man isaac hayes sure fell off" just because he wasnt dropping classic records in the 90s. artists get old! creative arcs are called 'arcs' for a reason. its not like he dropped a couple hot records & starting making bullshit, he had a decade+ creative hot streak

...in your opinion. different strokes and all that.

you dont think he had a decade+ hot streak?

deej obv otm

just that dudes most visible period seems to be his creative nadir, but like ive said before i still go in for a lot of what this guy is shitting out these days and dont get the hate

I'm not arguing he had a good run, but I think his hits became pretty spotty around the time he and Missy went their separate ways. I think Futuresex was the end of his era. I can still appreciate the guy when he's good, don't get me wrong. Oh, and hey J0rdan! I see you :)

I'm not arguing he had a good run, but I think his hits became pretty spotty around the time he and Missy went their separate ways. I think Futuresex was the end of his era.

i think most everyone would agree with you on this, so i'm not even sure what is being argued

i guess deej & everyone else is saying that it's barely even notable that the shock values aren't good

i really didn't think that canon timba even went as far as the jt/nelly era really

I think Futuresex was the end of his era

that is about a decade tho!

the 06 timba "resurgence" is odd cuz i instinctively think of it more as the start of the danja "era"

where's he gone tho really?

2009 was hardly a banner year and his upcoming projects involve a lot of constantly delayed maybe-not-gonna-happens (missy/cassie)

Huh. I like that Timbaland/Timberlake/food jam a good deal. Beat's cool, and it bears "Weird" Al to the punch.

xp youtube- seems like a pretty inspired use and choice of samples

"Luv 2 Luv U" is such an underrated jam

the remix, more specifically

maybe underrated in the sense that it doesn't get mentioned enough alongside his other early hits, but yes, total classic, real heads know the deal. Welcome To Our World might be my fav full length Timbo production.

seriously, this timbo beat is one o my favourite of the year

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cMiBVUQSqo

total motherlode of rare/unreleased swing mob/bassment stuff here

http://confessionsofacurlymind.wordpress.com/2011/12/29/da-bassment-crew-aka-swing-mob-the-rise-fall-rise-of-one-of-the-baddest-motherfucking-crews-in-modern-music-history-the-recently-unearthed-77min-cassette-demo-tape-you-must-hear/

that's a long url

And given all the songs therein it is worth its length.