Uh-oh Michael Jackson has had a heart attack?

http://www.cnn.com/

who's heart?

(yeah, yeah, too easy)

he's dead

i mean, if the medics are doing CPR in the ambulance, that is a bad, bad sign

rip thriller

first sky saxon then farrah--bad things happen in threes

twitter is certain he's dead

in the tour van we were jamming some of the good cuts from 'invincible' and looking forward to a new record :/

In what appears to be an apparent suicide, musician Michael Jackson was pronounced dead as a result of cardiac arrest after consuming more than two-dozen sleeping pills.

Complete details are not yet available, as this story is still developing.

?!?

whoa

We've just learned Michael Jackson has died. He was 50.

Michael suffered a cardiac arrest earlier this afternoon and paramedics were unable to revive him.

Michael is survived by three children: Michael Joseph Jackson, Jr., Paris Michael Katherine Jackson and Prince "Blanket" Michael Jackson II.

Jackson had 13 number one hits during his solo career.

Story developing...

12th

Wow, first you hear the guy is holding up tour rehearsals by insisting on a choir composed of a precisely equal number of black, white, Asian and Latino children, all fluent in sign language. The next thing you hear is dead of a heart attack. :0

sky says tmz is reporting hes died.

omg

also shit, another great american tragedy rolls to an ignominious end :(

oh hell no

Drudge Siren confirms.

BBC is also quoting TMZ, so it's probably true.

And it is a proper tragedy, too, in the classical Greek sense. Surprised he didn't pry out his eyes first.

jesus what a shock

This shit ain't right. Awful news.

good god

Yeah, i got confirm from a news friend
holy shit
holy holy shit
so fucked up

And it is a proper tragedy, too, in the classical Greek sense. Surprised he didn't pry out his eyes first.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 25 June 2009 22:48 (1 minute ago) Bookmark

He pried out most everything else

In what appears to be an apparent suicide, musician Michael Jackson was pronounced dead as a result of cardiac arrest after consuming more than two-dozen sleeping pills.

Where was this quote from?

Sky Saxon, Ed McMahon, Farrah, MJ. Running the gamut there. Rule of fours?

oh wow

fuck i just don't know man this is really actually tragic

wow.

i was sort of assuming his latter years would be long weirdo sad farce, not short sad tragedy.

:(

man, i mean RIP MJ, and thanks for all the memories, but how is this in any way ~really~ shocking

yeah i wonder about that suicide quote? haven't read anything about that anywhere else, not that it's gone that long...

wow can't believe this really

not shocking just tragic and really really so.
fucked up as he was, i didn't really think of him as mortal

No one else did either, which probably contributed a lot to his personal problems.

i was sort of assuming his latter years would be long weirdo sad farce, not short sad tragedy.

i assumed the opposite but that doesn't make this less of a shock. speechless.

let's remember him like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VASYhabHkM

...none of the news channels are reporting he's died

jesus

He's walking on the moon tonight.
RIP Mike!

honest question: will there actually be like millions of people holding vigils for MJ, the world over? is he our last truly global pop star?

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE55O6AK20090625

iranian rioters stop to remember michael

("... TMZ reports" - so it's on Reuters.com, but it's still from TMZ, don't know how legitimate that makes it)

what a disaster for little boys

I'd like to think Michael is (as rumored) punking Prince in this classic clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CoxNzOOoQU

Well, the more legit news outlets are probably trying to y'know, verify and stuff before blazing away with the RIP Michael Jackson headlines.

what a disaster for little boys

― am0n, Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:00 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ho ho

lol am0n

also of course it bears repeating: tmz is reporting this...doesnt mean it's true

When even his family says it's pretty bad, it's got to be pretty bad.

it's everywhere now, but yeah, everyone is still citing tmz as source

my confirmation is from someone at AOL who got it off the wire
tho' it could be a fucked up connection there too?

china allows access to youtube for one day, so that its people might remember the king of pop by watching that one video of the filipino prisoners

http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Michael-Jackson/dp/B00000269M

subcomandante marcos: "the indigenous people of mexico join the world in mourning michael jackson"

When even his family says it's pretty bad, it's got to be pretty bad.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:05 PM

http://atletico.theoffside.com/files/2009/06/michael_jackson_bad_album_cover.jpg amirite

is citing tmz more or less reliable than citing perez hilton

More, but that's not saying much.

Why would they make up something about Michael Jackson? Um, oh, yeah.

am0n's in a state of shock

eman r.i.p.

holy fuck i don't believe this, this can't be true

He looked all pale :-(

i just watched ~6000 tweets about this in two minutes

fucked up as he was, i didn't really think of him as mortal

that's why i'm in such a state of shock

people outside chanting his name here in manchester uk. astonishing scenes.

LA Times blog has an update:

Updated at 3:15 p.m.: Pop star Michael Jackson was pronounced dead by doctors this afternoon after arriving at a hospital in a deep coma, city and law enforcement sources told The Times.

Updated at 2:46 p.m.: Jackson is in a coma and family have are arriving at his bedside, a law enforcement source told The Times.

He looked all pale :-(

― StanM, Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:21 PM (3 minutes ago)

stop

cnn is reporting he is still alive, but in a coma...

pretty weird... seeing everyone is now assuming he is already dead..

Can't be true? He's/was in terrible shape. Knew these 50 shows would never happen, he didn't look fit enough to do one show, especially after how many years off?

RIP, pure product of America

LA Times reporting Michael Jackson has died. They have official confirmation from law enforcement officers.

well there you go.

CNN now reporting that LA times reporting Michael Jackson has died...

[Updated at 3:15 p.m.: Pop star Michael Jackson was pronounced dead by doctors this afternoon after arriving at a hospital in a deep coma, city

from here:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/06/pop-star-michael-jackson-was-rushed-to-a-hospital-this-afternoon-by-los-angeles-fire-department-paramedics--capt-steve-ruda.html

wow

The LA Times, unfortunately, has confirmed his death. Holy fuck.

http://www.latimes.com/

just the whole thing. what an ending to a supremely weird story.

now everyone is suddenly going to come out about how he was a genius and how awesome his music was, and pretend they didn't mock and ridicule him to death for the past 15 years.

CNN is like always the last major news outlet to announce things like this.

My favorite Michael Jackson joke that hardly gets any play:

Q: What did the lady say to Michael Jackson at the beach?
A: "Excuse me, but you're in my son."

― Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Thursday, December 29, 2005 1:52 AM (3 years ago)

RIP MJ ;_;

THE_REAL_SHAQ is it true about michael

now everyone is suddenly going to come out about how he was a genius and how awesome his music was, and pretend they didn't mock and ridicule him to death for the past 15 years.

these are not mutually exclusive

true, but it's still really fucking annoying.

it's possible that he finally listened to the second disc of "Thriller 25" today

now everyone is suddenly going to come out about how he was a genius and how awesome his music was, and pretend they didn't mock and ridicule him to death for the past 15 years.

― Jesus X, the Arthropod Barrista (res), Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:31 PM Bookmark

Oh, come the fuck on. A very large percentage of the people who have been ridiculing his personal life do and have loved his music, myself included.

i've always been a defender.

yeah how hypocritical to show respect for the dead. awful.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-hospitalized/?hp

RIP. As some have stated upthread already, let's remember him for his music. Which was brilliant - particularly in the 80s and the early 70s.

it's very possible to view michael with a certain affection and sadness even if you do, as i do, believe he was a child molester, etc....deeply flawed person i guess but i imagine he had a lot of pain too.

it's possible that he finally listened to the second disc of "Thriller 25" today

Actual lolz!

Geir OTM.

haha, lolz j0rdan

there it goes...

Twitter is over capacity.
Too many tweets! Please wait a moment and try again.

B**** R***** Michael Jackson dies, crashes Twitter, in effort to silence Iranian dissidents.
8 minutes ago · Comment

And well.. Brilliant in the 70s and 80s overall, considering "Off The Wall" represented his output of the late 70s.

I don't know how much was finished of the stuff he was apparently working on in studio, but I suppose, if not too little, there will be a posthumours release of the final album he was working on. Hopefully a bit better than "Invincible", which would be a sad swansong, considering its low quality compared to his earlier output.

"you rock my world" was dope

this is the first thing i watched to remember him. that dance breakdown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_n7cftdkl0

now everyone is suddenly going to come out about how he was a genius and how awesome his music was, and pretend they didn't mock and ridicule him to death for the past 15 years.

not everyone

now everyone is suddenly going to come out about how he was a genius and how awesome his music was, and pretend they didn't mock and ridicule him to death for the past 15 years.

Anna Nicole'D

Now here comes the mega coverage. After him: the flood.

Sad. He was looking better nowadays, I thought - better than in 2000, anyhow, when news of his death would not have come as a suprise.

Yep, he looked worse in 2000. And a suicide wouldn't have been too surprising around 2002-2003.
But, you know, the combination of some devastating experiences, plus driving his body to the limit, and well, possibly also the effects of his lost childhood. Even though he stayed away from drugs and booze, there's a limit to what a man can actually handle.

ven though he stayed away from drugs and booze,

oh yeah, him and Elvis both

Cautious until the last, the BBC has just confirmed it.

i'm really looking fwd to the OTT mega media coverage if it consists of endlessly replaying MJ's videos.

oh yeah, him and Elvis both

I heard he never drank anything but fruit limonade.
You know, in a lot of ways, he never got a day older than 12 or so.

a little piece of my childhood is dead.

Stayed away from drugs and booze? Dude was high as a kite, always, pilled to the gills.

i hope he finds in death the peace he could never find in life.

i'm really looking fwd to the OTT mega media coverage if it consists of endlessly replaying MJ's videos.

― lex pretend, den 26 juni 2009 00:52 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

^^^

Not that this isn't terrible news, but are we really supposed to pretend he wasn't deserving of ridicule?

Indeed -- Let the slavish mushroom cloud of revisionism commence.

i hope he finds in death the peace he could never find in life.

― Jesus X, the Arthropod Barrista (res), Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:57 PM Bookmark

Same here.

it's weird, I don't feel like a slave, but right now the only ones I really want to see are 90's onward

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNl2Pm9-7Vk

i hope he finds in death the peace he could never find in life.

― Jesus X, the Arthropod Barrista (res), Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:57 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

He's dead. Story over. What's he going to "find?"

np: Morphine

I ended up rather liking 'Scream' and the video is awesome frankly

Yeah that video is pretty great. Not sure Janet ever looked better.

god "scream" is awesome.

rip michael, you got me into music, thank you

fuck, that was me on housemates computer.

At least Prince is still alive.

Imagine how I felt

When I heard of Michael Jackson's conveyor belt.

The first record I ever bought was "Thriller." Saved up my allowance and got it at the supermarket on LP when it came out. Never bought any of the MJ albums after that, and I'm sort of conflicted about how I feel now. Yeah, he was some kind of genius. But child molestation is some kind of black mark, too. That's more than just a little asterisk after your name, so I'm not sure if I'm close to feeling especially "sad" about this. It's more like he's finally been put out of his misery: palpable relief. Rest in peace indeed.

From Twitter: "Weird Al just died from a fart attack."

perez hilton hammers nail into career's coffin http://twitpic.com/8f2d2

also that gets funnier if you look at the other tabs open :/

i don't really buy into celebrity culture and all that but michael jackson was such a big part of my childhood that I really feel now like i lost a childhood friend. i never once met him of course, but i always felt like he was the one celebrity who would somehow know who i was if i ever met him in person. there was a magic i felt about him that followed me into adulthood. through him i was introduced to pop music, and i truly loved his albums as a child though I haven't listened to them hardly at all over the past two decades. he was also one of the only things both me and my parents both enjoyed. it's hard to believe he's gone.

i keep coming back to what a great dancer he was. pop music certainly never looked the same after the thriller videos.

Obviously a part of the 80s is gone. Along with Madonna and (although to a slightly lesser extent in terms of popular culture and not geeks/critics) Prince, Jackso was one of the three big icons of 80s pop culture.

it's weird how mainstream music was actually good in the 80s

dangerous was the first album i ever bought. was also my first exposure to sexuality thanks to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cupnsUDyjuA

sick sick SICK beat btw

Never too fond of "In The Closet" although it had a great chorus.

The funniest trivia is of course that Madonna is actually an uncredited guest vocalist on the track.

I first heard the story indirectly on a Spanish language radio station, where the DJ presented it as like some weird morbid trivia teaser: Guess which huge music star of the 80s had a cardiac arrest 15 min ago! then I switched to the hip-hop/R&B station where they said that TMZ reported his death.

I was actually shocked, then they played Billie Jean, which I normally think of as just a perfect dance pop song, but given the context it just seemed unbearably sad. This possible suicide thing and all MJ's other problems really do elevate it to the level of a truly effed up Greek tragedy.

perez hilton hammers nail into career's coffin http://twitpic.com/8f2d2

"The photo you were looking for doesn't exist anymore"

What was it?

yeah i wonder about that suicide quote? haven't read anything about that anywhere else, not that it's gone that long...

Sorry about that, that quote was b.s.

http://twitpic.com/8et2f

Twitter: "as soon as I realized the severity of the situation and my mistake I fixed it instantly."

it was a screengrab of a perez hilton post of a picture of MJ with "HEART ATTACK OR COLD FEET" scrawled across it

i presume it's been taken down b/c the dude who posted it had forgotten to close down the gay porn in the other tabs before screengrabbing

xps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atINVA6my08

lol i tried but i couldn't read those other tabs

perez hilton as the heretic to pop's clergy is interesting for about five seconds

fortunately perez hilton looks like he's aiming for the same fate as jackson, albeit much faster and with about 10,000x fewer mourners

try 100,000,000

tru

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So-kNWU02QY

thread could bear a title change

Am I the only person who feels incredibly alienated by society's reaction to stuff like this? Especially within the first half hour or so (the feelings' almost gone now).

There's something that produces alienation/anomie in me seeing every FB status, Twitter blip, etc being "OMG MICHAEL JACKSON DIED" and seeing everybody try to get their little word or quip in re: a celebrity death. Now I know Michael meant a lot to some people and I don't mean to sound self-righteous or callous, but I'm talking about every single person manning their blog and page to post near identical reactions to a celebrity death that makes me feel like a pharaoh just died and this is ancient Egypt and we're all just idolaters wit no sense of perspective or of the absurd.

I don't know who the heck you are, but you're OTM.

Mummified long before death, mind

Yeah it's fucked up, but dare I say it's 'human nature'

it's probably the closest thing to princess di since, um, you know, she died. it's on that level.

wow, they actually brought kurt loder BACK from the dead to talk about michael jackson on mtv!

Am I the only person who feels incredibly alienated by society's reaction to stuff like this?

his music meant a lot to a lot of people; to many, his songs represent a certain time in their lives. I don't see how you figure that a bunch of people who, as individuals, express some kind of sentiment publicly means that they lack awareness or have no sense of perspective. MJ was a big figure in music and was highly influential. if you look through all these ILM death threads, you'll see the exact same kind of shit-- posts filled with seemingly overly emotive and emotional comments that seem somewhat ridiculous (e.g. "HOLY SHIT BARRY ADAMSON'S DEAD" "FUCK, THIS IS HORRIBLE ABOUT THE GUY FROM SOFT CELL", "MORRISSEY DEAD AT 56, THIS IS REALLY FUCKING TRAGIC R.I.P", etc.), especially given that no one here actually knows in person these people they're mourning over. So okay, it might seem weird to people observing it, but still, their music represents something to some people. Let them mourn the way they want.

the only thing that alienates me is the way our society builds people up, then when they're at their pinnacle, breaks them down until they're on the very precipice of death or total mental breakdown, and then when they die, suddenly turns on a dime and idolizes them.

"HOLY SHIT BARRY ADAMSON'S DEAD"

don't even

see what I mean?

i think i'm sticking with mtv tonight. seems fitting.

wow, they actually brought kurt loder BACK from the dead to talk about michael jackson on mtv!

I called this immediately, but assumed it would be Jon Norris.

MTV pretending to care about music.. I'm pretty sure CNN went at least 2 hours w/o a commercial, and every time I've turned to MTV since the announcement it's been nothing but ads.

madonna released a statement. she can't stop crying.

aw

Jon Norris was on another station earlier

http://confessionsvelvetropes.typepad.com/my_weblog/images/madonna_and_michael_jackson.jpg

his music meant a lot to a lot of people; to many, his songs represent a certain time in their lives. I don't see how you figure that a bunch of people who, as individuals, express some kind of sentiment publicly means that they lack awareness or have no sense of perspective.

Public sentiment over someone's death can be alright but there's something about being connected to the world at all times (i.e. the internet) that, when a BIG STORY breaks, makes a lot of us think before anything else "Oh shit son I need to get to a computer and blog/twitter/FB this ASAP this is so colossal an event I can't miss out, must get my two cents in before the world-"

I've felt that impulse before (and acted on it) - and let's admit it it's absurd. Seeing millions of people do it at once is surreal and I felt like the absurdity of modern life is in front of me when the world's biggest celebrity dies and we all feel the need to go online and "do something" immediately e.g. twitter, blog, post about it. The whole worlds stops for this guy, we won't mention the pedophilia and eccentricities, we weep, and then we go back to waiting for the next big celebrity event so we can blog about it. WTF?

dude

you're posting on the internet about michael jackson's death

http://www.solarnavigator.net/music/music_images/Michael_Jackson_Ronald_and_Nancy_Reagan.jpg

http://por-img.cimcontent.net/api/assets/bin-200904/53779e7e185e5f613d00207f83000a40.jpg

okay, john norris is on mtv now. did NOT know about his hair...

omg john norris's hair

I'm willing to think of this as epochal for sure --- nobody sells any records anymore and Michael jackson's dead, rip pop, fucking obnoxious concept to begin with, long live music ----

you know he's just gonna rot for a while and then get up & do that thriller dance though ----

Prince is going to live FOREVER, I actually believe this

horseshoe - I can't put on MTV right now but I need to know - what's going on with JN's hair?

it is like shirley partridge's kind of?

i will look for a picture.

Now I know Michael meant a lot to some people and I don't mean to sound self-righteous or callous, but I'm talking about every single person manning their blog and page to post near identical reactions to a celebrity death that makes me feel like a pharaoh just died and this is ancient Egypt and we're all just idolaters wit no sense of perspective or of the absurd.

In terms of music deaths, I would say Jacko's death is up there with Elvis in 1977 and John Lennon in 1980. For our generation, Michael Jackson was as much of an icon as those two were to their generations in the 50s and 60s.

http://www.mtvasia.com/News/200811/images/03016903.jpg

but blonder and longer and straighter

http://www.bordersmedia.com/motown/galleries/ss_images/MichaelJacksonMillen_sm.jpg

aw, that's cute.

JN hair not so much. He's not wearing eyeliner still, is he?

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool went to see beatboxing tonight, had a 6 minute breakdown of mj hits in tribute. heaven needed a peado. not gonna read the thread, not gonna check it again when sober.

classic mtv shot right here:

http://radio.weblogs.com/0001014/categories/adamCurrySScanlog/scans/tomFrestonMichaelJackson.jpg

I've felt that impulse before (and acted on it) - and let's admit it it's absurd.

state your specific qualm with it and why we should all view this as somehow "wrong"

http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=6ea0eb80175f93f6_landing

http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=2de31aaed5382358_landing

when a BIG STORY breaks, makes a lot of us think before anything else "Oh shit son I need to get to a computer and blog/twitter/FB this ASAP this is so colossal an event I can't miss out, must get my two cents in before the world-"

first of all, i don't understand your moral outrage about this; why do you care what other people do with their time if they aren't hurting you? second, how did you arrive at this alleged motive for all these people? you're making a sweeping generalization about the motives of individuals who have made statements online; how you arrived at some aggregate motive from this individual data is not clear to me. if i were to speculate on their motives, I would say that people post about things that concern them and which they want to communicate with others about-- kind of like how you're posting on this board. My first inclination would not be to say that people want to do what you've stated above; that just seems like a bitter and dismissive reading. not saying that there's a lot of depth or literary merit to blog posts and twitters, but i'd say it's no different than water cooler chatter. the whole point of blogs and social networking sites is to be able to communicate with others. if someone feels the need to say something to whoever reads them (e.g. their friends!), they will post something; if not, they won't. also, your premise that "everyone" is doing this is flawed because your data set is heavily censored; you're not acknowledging the presence of the millions of people who could have posted something but who didn't. I bet the number of people who have posted something is in the very tiny minority.

"it's very possible to view michael with a certain affection and sadness even if you do, as i do, believe he was a child molester, etc....deeply flawed person i guess but i imagine he had a lot of pain too."

this^^^ RIP michael...

np: i want you back

"This is a man who touched so many people." — Larry King Live

Oh man... double entendre on live tv!

pouring out some jesus juice over here, rip

I have always defended MJ. Never bought the allegations. Always bought the records.

Was really hoping to see him live before either of us died. Thriller was so huge for me and Can You Feel It is my favorite song and my favorite video.

This is the long version that you don't normally see. Inspirational and god-like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swx6yoVrkC0

"Can You Feel It" was what I played when I got home tonight.

You are a good man Ned.

Watching that crazy gathering at the Apollo tonight, I was reminded how I've always been particularly wigged out by the people who go fucking INSANE OVER MICHAEL JACKSON. Like, ok, in 1983? I got that. The Japanese and Romanians who wept and lost control of their bodily functions over him? Sure, I guess I got that, too.

But sometime in the 90's, it started to seem cultish-ly weird that there were crowds here in America screaming their fucking heads off for him as he (no shit) put on rocket packs and flew around the arena during shows...yet virtually no one was buying his records.

It was almost as if Michael Jackson was paying off his fan base or spiking their Jesus Juice with some drug that made them think this decrepit shell of a performer was the Beatles on Ed Sullivan or something.

The whole thing just felt deeply weird, manufactured and...off.

human nature in the street, billie jean on the walk home

i don't know man, i just don't know

http://pics.livejournal.com/zarex/pic/0006e3kf.jpg

The whole thing just felt deeply weird, manufactured and...off.

The sad thing is that creepy mid-90s Jackson is something out of a Normal Rockwell compared to how the last fifteen years went re: both Jackson and his cult.

But sometime in the 90's, it started to seem cultish-ly weird that there were crowds here in America screaming their fucking heads off for him as he (no shit) put on rocket packs and flew around the arena during shows...yet virtually no one was buying his records.

i think he probably drew a mixture of dedicated pop fans, nostalgists, celebrity hounds and rubberneckers. his most committed fans were the kinds of serious misfits you saw protesting outside his trial. for some time he was either the most-damaged famous person or the most-famous damaged person in the world, and there are an awful lot of damaged people out there. i think he meant something to a lot of people.

I used to say
I & me
Now it's us
Now it's we

Dude made plenty of killer tunes but c'mon, he's a goddamn child molester. Maybe never officially proven but sure as hell seems that way. I feel zero loss surrounding his death and it actually may have saved future potential victims. Pedophiles ruin children and their families and goddamn he sure seemed like one.

yep, really don't give a damn.

I'm intrigued by how the media can, for the most part, forget all the weird scandals with such a straight face in their attempt to pay tribute. I don't ask that we only harp on the negative when someone dies, but I wish we had a media that was a bit more nuanced in their coverage. It's hard to swallow this idea that he was just this saint who was "a little weird" to some.

Very hard to swallow. Even if you don't believe he was a molester, the guy made himself into a walking joke for the past several years. It's nice to remember him solely for the great music he made but it's very strange to willfully close our eyes & say LALALA to avoid thinking about the weirdness & controversy that defined him for so long.

So... what happens to his kids now?

definitely the first celebrity death of my lifetime that has affected me. i agree with geir that this is up there with elvis and john lennon's deaths, i don't quite remember but if you count it the right way michael jackson is the bestselling pop artist ever. is this still tragic if he was a child molester? i guess not, but the music is fucking incredible and the man who made it has just died and that kind of matters more to me right now.

is this still tragic if he was a child molester? i guess not, but the music is fucking incredible and the man who made it has just died and that kind of matters more to me right now.

I think it's still tragic, it's just that the media can't be nuanced or honest about celebrities. It reminds me of hearing that the Guardian, the day before Diana died, had run a column saying she was dumber than a garden plant, but then the next day, of course, we have to forget those attitudes and pretend she was like a girl Jesus. The media covers people like they're teen fads: one day they're in, the next day they're out; no rhyme or reason provided or expected.

yeah no, that's true. you're right. i was more just justifying my own personal reaction, and i guess the media's reaction is just the result of our combined personal reactions. are they really not mentioning anything smutty?

i hope alien ant farm are taking this okay

on cnn they kept having this guy come on and remind everyone of the overwhelmingly creepy testimonials that came out during his trials, how he settled with that one boys parents for $10 mil, etc. about 1/3 negative/'nuanced' stuff like that, 2/3 blind tribute, which at this point (he did like JUST DIE) seems pretty fair i guess.

Just checked Amazon and he has the entire top 15 to himself.

http://i39.tinypic.com/23m7tjd.jpg

too soon?

i think its so fucking weird that ppl are posting about how ridic it is ppl are upset about him dying -- he was one of the biggest pop artists ever. & as far as his molestation goes i feel pretty much nothing but sadness -- its a fuckin cycle of abuse where victims becomes victimizers & getting all judgmental like "we should just be happy hes dead!!!" is totally missing the point to me ... his life sounds unbearably painful & sad for him & those around him. i cant feel hatred towards that, just intense sadness, even if i feel hatred towards some of his actions.

still wouldnt be surprised if those allegations were true. i hope they werent but i wouldnt be all that surprised. he had such a bizarre life. but hes still my all time favourite artist, just cos he was when i was a kid. RIP. shame they keep showing the recent pics and not enough of the 70s vids and 60s clips on the news montages.

& not just the child molestation but the way he represented a painful mentality about popular culture that rejects african american features ... like how sick is a society where dude felt obligated to reach some creepy 'perfect' appearance -- not to sound all 'you blame him but look to yourselves!' but anyone blaming him needs to look wider ... he was a supremely fucked up individual but at the same time he was very much a product of american culture & i feel nothing but sadness about that for him

like, they should show what he did in his prime. not during his wane.

http://blog.rhapsody.com/2009/06/remembering-michael-jackson.html#comment-1468

this piece is great, i dunno if yr still reading the board xuxhk but A+++++++

Ok, drunk me was a bastard. I don't know enough about the cycle of abuse to really talk about, so it's best I shut up really.

That said, other than the obvious (Thriller, Off The Wall, Jackson5/The Jacksons), anyone well grounded in his career want to school me on what I might be missing out on?

http://www.vibe.com/news/news_headlines/michael_jackson/2009/06/twitter_04.jpg

^^^good tweet imo

I remember watchin TV in 1983 when michael jackson first did the moon walk
the next day all over the world man that there was the big talk
seein him and quincy jones rackin up awards
so many #1s songs on billboard
it had me sayin man i wanna be like mike
they made me wanna sit my lil ass down and write
i wanted to make hits

- DJ Paul
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKzPWE8057k

http://img.search.com/thumb/b/bd/Mjthriller.jpg/300px-Mjthriller.jpg

"I've lost my little brother today, and part of my soul has gone with him." ~ Quincy Jones

Mark Sanford's gotta be pretty pleased with how this has played out.

forgot who that was for a second

real talk i think this is so unbelievably sad & tragic & cant believe ppl were trying to score smarter-than-thou points upthread around the death of the king of pop

true, but lol:

B**** R***** Michael Jackson dies, crashes Twitter, in effort to silence Iranian dissidents.
8 minutes ago · Comment

― s1ocked up, they won't let me out (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 25 June 2009 22:42 (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^yeah. seeing far too many people either trying to be edgier-than-thou in some sort of bizarre competition to see who can be least affected by a man's death, or pompously reminding everyone that MJ wasn't a saint

xp

the good jokes will be funny in time, but not yet, but UGH at people trying so desperately to prove their edginess w/lame attempts at humour which barely work on any level

OK, my thoughts:

Tragic way to go.

I always thought the o2 gigs were a really bad idea, the guy's been off the scene for a long time, and for all the "wow it's MJ" factor, there would be too many complaining that it's not as 'on' as it was when he was in his prime, let alone 'last time out'

And now we know, it could well have happened, that he dies of a heart attack partway through the run.

Of course, that may well have appealed to him, what a way to go, at the very top, etc.

And that's it. I know this is just the calm before, and the charts and TV will be full of tributes and compilations and so on.

His stuff, some I like, most I don't. At least when JLen went, I was sort of getting more into his stuff, but then it just seemed like joining in with the howling and I got put off.

I was more sad about Steven Wells, but hey that's more a personal thing (never met him etc)...

I find your personal moral compass very weird, lex; you're proud of not having cried in years, and yet you're saying people should be, at the least, respectfully maudlin and "ignore the bad" about Jacko's death.

i think its so fucking weird that ppl are posting about how ridic it is ppl are upset about him dying -- he was one of the biggest pop artists ever. & as far as his molestation goes i feel pretty much nothing but sadness -- its a fuckin cycle of abuse where victims becomes victimizers & getting all judgmental like "we should just be happy hes dead!!!" is totally missing the point to me ... his life sounds unbearably painful & sad for him & those around him. i cant feel hatred towards that, just intense sadness, even if i feel hatred towards some of his actions.

― zzz (deej), 26. kesäkuuta 2009 11:43 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

& not just the child molestation but the way he represented a painful mentality about popular culture that rejects african american features ... like how sick is a society where dude felt obligated to reach some creepy 'perfect' appearance -- not to sound all 'you blame him but look to yourselves!' but anyone blaming him needs to look wider ... he was a supremely fucked up individual but at the same time he was very much a product of american culture & i feel nothing but sadness about that for him

― zzz (deej), 26. kesäkuuta 2009 11:46 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is so true it hurts. I couldn't have said it better.

To be honest, the 'edgy' jokes about MJ have never been 'funny' if I think about it.

But that's usually true of 'edgy' humour, it gets repeated parrotfashion adnause...

nick, you're being a huge idiot. why make it personal at all, let alone misunderstand both things i said separately?

I literally grew up with his music -- Michael's abt six months younger than me -- and up through Dangerous it sounded GREAT no matter how rocked-out I was or freaked out he got. I remember my best friend Rich in junior high (during the Jackson 5 heyday) saying "Michael Jackson is going to be around the rest of our lives" or something like that.

Other MJ memories: coming to NYC for a visit in 1980 and hearing "Rock W/You" on every passing boombox and car radio, a city soundtrack. I saw the Victory tour, too. awesome.

thanks for the music.

http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i07c5940218c277f489900a30200f6586

But a source familiar with the situation says a traditional nonappearance policy was never written. Billboard couldn't confirm that at press time. Even if AEG had a policy, that doesn't mean Jackson's death, and the losses incurred, would be covered. "If it was a pre-existing condition or drug- or alcohol-related, a normal cancellation policy would not cover that, even if he had passed a medical exam," the source says. AEG could be on the hook "if death was from something that's excluded in the policy."

........

You're such a cockfarmer sometimes, Lex.

children, let's be civil.

heal the world guys

This is sad.

I find it strange that hardly anyone ever talks about what an unusual and intense trauma it would have been to develop vitiligo while being probably the most famous black person in the world. That alone, leaving aside everything else, at least contextualises a lot of mj's later weirdness for me.

Well, I suppose that's because most people (want to?) think he lightened his skin.

Well, he did, but I've always gotten the impression it was fairly well documented that he did this in response to the condition.

It's still a fairly common treatment response to permanently bleach the skin, if you have enough money anyway.

this piece is great, i dunno if yr still reading the board xuxhk but A+++++++
Except for the fact that Chuck said MJ might have been the greatest songwriter of the last 25 years. I don't know how you could reasonably make that claim -- putting Thriller aside, you'd have to include 1) the disco songs from Off the Wall (good, not the the greatest "songs"), 2) Bad, which I always found to be his first garish record, 3) anything after.

That's not to say he didn't write song really great songs -- but this is the kind of hyperbole everyone seems to be getting sucked up into.

Well, I think the most common assumption, however wrong, is that the vitiligo thing was just a cover story. "Michael Jackson - didn't he used to be black ha ha" was a common line.

Basically, I think any parent who wants his kid to become a star at age he can barely read, and starts training him accordingly, should take a look at Michael Jackson's life and reconsider. To me the fact that child stars are considered a normal thing, as if these kids merely wanted to be stars and it all happened just like that, is kinda weird.

I still can't believe this. Damn....R.I.P. Never again will any one person be as huge a pop star.

he was so remarkable as a child performer that this may have legitimised the concept but at the same time raising the bar too high for other kids i dunno.

Michael Jackson's Death takes down News Web Sites

I find your personal moral compass very weird, lex; you're proud of not having cried in years, and yet you're saying people should be, at the least, respectfully maudlin and "ignore the bad" about Jacko's death.

lex views celebrity as the moral imperative that trumps all else

do you often make insulting judgments like that based on idiotic second-hand misrepresentations of what people say?

I guess he got enough.

lex the same was true of andy warhol whom I love & you've been doing the he's-a-celebrity-it's-different routine for ages now, not just on this thread - if you're insulted by a pretty accurate description of the impression I get of you, I'm not gonna own that

Wasn't Stevie Wonder as (more?) popular as a child star though? And he turned out a relatively sane and wise individual as far as I know. Although I guess you could reason, I dunno, as a blind kid he would have been advised better etc. In fact, I think I'm just gonna stop typing. Would like to see someone a lot better versed in Motown write about the parallels and how MJ ended up so fucked up (can i say in ways other than the abuse? it is a pretty defining factor) and Stevie ended up fine.

Wasn't Stevie Wonder as (more?) popular as a child star though?

No. Not even remotely close.

Yeah, he had a few hits, but he only became a proper superstar as an adult.

I'm not gonna argue, I was just going on half remembered facts of Uptight and Fingertips etc. being huge, breaking records etc.

I thought you were going to stop typing....

I am right now. Lunch, here I come.

Jackson Dominates iTunes, Amazon, Twitter

"At 11am BST on iTunes U.S., "The Essential Michael Jackson" was No. 1, followed by "Thriller" at No. 2, "Off The Wall" at No. 3 and "Number Ones" at No. 4. "Thriller (25th Anniversary Edition)" was at No. 6 with "The Ultimate Collection" at No. 10."

"On Amazon.com, the Sony Music Entertainment album catalog and hits sets have the top 15 positions on the site's best-selling music chart."

!!!

There have been plenty of 20th century child stars and wunderkinds felled by their fame. Jackson's problems ran much deeper than being pushed into show business at a young age, and many of those problems also ran much deeper than mere eccentricity.

Anyway, I'm sure not all former child stars have mental problems as an adult, but I'm also quite sure that the risk for that is much higher for them than for those kids whose parents don't want them to be celebrities.

(xx-post)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upbbz_Eyq4Q

I can never quite get my head round the fact that MJ judged his finest, career-best composition to be, erm, "Heal The World".

I will never understand the "person has died, must buy whatever they're selling" impulse in some people

esp. someone whose work is this ubiqutious

I will never understand the "person has died, must buy whatever they're selling" impulse in some people

Some people still don't own his albums and really want to hear them, not only today, but for a little while afterwards.

they only "want" them now he's dead. it's hard to imagine people in this category who were born before 1995 tho, and surely the kids aren't shelling out.

I didn't own Thriller until the 25th Anniversary Edition came out; my copy of Bad is on cassette and I've never owned any of his other albums.

i actually don't own off the wall or even have it on mp3 (and it's possibly my favourite MJ album) so i will be acquiring it in one way or another soon basically because him dying has brought this to my attention.

Surprisingly (to me) I've never owned any solo Michael Jackson records or MP3s, and only a handful of Jackson 5/Jacksons tracks.

I suppose I might be tempted to listen to some right now, but I could just do that on Spotify (or turn on the radio).

I never bought one of his records, but I'm not saying the people buying all his stuff now already had copies anyway. Obv sales of an artist's work always rocket after their death, but with songs so easy to buy online I find it more irritating in this case - and maybe even as cynical as this reaction. xposts

When an artist dies, it can feel like the right moment for a career retrospective. Hence the sales spike. Seems fine to me.

ilm has reached a new low when posters have to go into a michael jackson rip thread and abuse each other. sad.

xxxxposts

what jim said - i've never owned off the wall either, weirdly - i guess i didn't think i needed it b/c its songs were so ubiquitous already

yeah, i'll probably be one of the ppl that buys some stuff, for basically the reason lex just said

i have owned thriller since i was about 2 or 3 (as in my older bro had it on LP and i still own it).

I never bought Thriller, for the same reason as Lex/Off The Wall - its presence was already all-encompassing.

I'll certainly be revisiting Dangerous this weekend, most of which I adored at the time - but on returning to it a couple of months ago, I was surprisingly underwhelmed.

"On Amazon.com, the Sony Music Entertainment album catalog and hits sets have the top 15 positions on the site's best-selling music chart."

!!!

― Kevin John Bozelka, Friday, June 26, 2009 8:56 AM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

"On ilxor.com, Michael Jackson threads have the top 3 positions on the site's new answers chart."

"And is responsible for 75% of new suggest bans"

"The day I Love Music died"

fitting, really. lock board.

So who's ready for some seriously under-rehearsed Glastonbury Jacko cover versions then?

You go first, I'll cheer you on.

Who will perform in the overblown, mixed genre, tribute performance at the Grammys?

Will Slash provide the guitar solos?

Did you guys see the MJ toxicology report came back?

Looks like "Morphine" won't be underrated much longer

I never bought one of his records, but I'm not saying the people buying all his stuff now already had copies anyway. Obv sales of an artist's work always rocket after their death, but with songs so easy to buy online I find it more irritating in this case - and maybe even as cynical as this reaction. xposts

― Hard House SugBanton (blueski), Friday, June 26, 2009 9:14 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is a bizarre reaction imo

i mean, being irritated that people are buying MJ albums after his death

Whats more bizarre is that it sounds like blueski is saying that its more cynical to buy physical copies than digital ones? WTF?

How is "a reminder of mortality has spurred me into doing something inconsequential that I've been putting off" a cynical or irritating reaction?

what a disaster for that bo selecta guy

xp I'd question whether that was the impulse behind every purchase or even a majority of them tbh

Reminds me of a woman who came into Streetside Records shortly after Conway Twitty died and bought one of each of his CDs because "they're going to be worth something some day."

― •--• --- --- •--• (Pleasant Plains), Friday, April 10, 2009 12:09 PM Bookmark

xposts

more like because of his death but whatever. this morbid curiosity and reaction is arguably more bizarre itself tho, however often it occurs (a lot yeah). when you see it in a commercial context it can feel like a strange kneejerk reaction.

somebody on my local Craigslist just listed a "mint" copy of Thriller at $250.00...

(xpost)

xp here's hoping Craig David pulls through

somebody on my local Craigslist just listed a "mint" copy of Thriller at $250.00...

hahaha GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

Whats more bizarre is that it sounds like blueski is saying that its more cynical to buy physical copies than digital ones?

I don't know where you got that from!

If I remember, I might buy Dangerous at some point soon, just because quite a few people have mentioned it today as being a bit unsung. I don't think I've ever heard Jam, for instance.

"Jam" is great but also really, really dated.

more like because of his death but whatever. this morbid curiosity and reaction is arguably more bizarre itself tho, however often it occurs (a lot yeah). when you see it in a commercial context it can feel like a strange kneejerk reaction.

― Hard House SugBanton (blueski), Friday, June 26, 2009 11:44 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

people react to things

the last 20 years of MJ's life were "morbid curiosity." what's going on now is just mourning/remembering/contemplating that life (at least, for people who are just remembering his life and not analyzing autopsy reports).

i mean if someone whose music wasn't familiar and beloved the world over died and their record sales spiked, yeah, that can be filed under "morbid curiosity," this is more like "oh shit why do i not own Off The Wall?"

still slightly conflicted about mourning him as 'purely' (ie all positively) as some of the media outlets seem to be prompting everyone to, but the fan in me hopes we might see some good archive releases come out of this, although that might actually be more difficult now hes not here, not sure. saw some copies of thriller selling for about £60 on ebay today, which was amazing. even for a mint 1982 copy.

Really? I should tell my mum to sell her copy, I doubt she's listened to it in 20 years

somebody on my local Craigslist just listed a "mint" copy of Thriller at $250.00...

hahaha GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

I saw a VG++ Thriller LP on Ebay up to $521 last night. More examples (sorry for the hideous links):

http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHAEL-JACKSON-THRILLER-ALBUM_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem3ca33073ccQQitemZ260435899340QQptZMusicQ5fonQ5fVinylQQsalenotsupported
http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHAEL-JACKSON-THRILLER-ALBUM-ORIGINAL_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem3ca33083f9QQitemZ260435903481QQptZMusicQ5fonQ5fVinylQQsalenotsupported

I mean I would understand if any of this stuff was at all rare.

thriller was the first album i ever bought.

i lent it to a kid from the neighborhood and he scratched it and drew stubble on the front cover with a ballpoint pen. what a guy. i still hate that kid passionately.

i bought the vinyl of the 25th anniversary edition last year. it has will.i.am remix on it, which i figured should have entitled me to a discount but nooooo.

theyll prob release some sessions from what hes been working on lately (although as its MJ, there might be some sort of clause preventing anyone from doing that - hold on, was he even still signed to sony before he died?) with will i am and akon and co now wont they?

the first 7" i bought was i just cant stop loving you lol. i think i killed my copy of bad through overplaying.

Fairly sure that there's some bid-bombing going on with a lot of these auctions. Though no doubt there probably are a few people dumb enough to bid that high.

jesus, those are like $3, $4 LPs.

Dude was $400 million in debt -- I don't think they'll trickle out the unreleased stuff.

This is so sad - L. knows what she's talking about & it's sad that she knows:

"When the autopsy comes, all hell's going to break loose, so thank God we're celebrating him now," Liza Minnelli told CBS' The Early Show by telephone.

xxpost

Yeah, I could go get four or five copies from the used record store down the street for less than $25 right now.

so... now who owns the Beatles catalog?

xpost - suicide due to pressures of debt and his perfectionist nature (ie he knew he wouldnt be able to do the shows like hed have liked to)?

MJ might have been the greatest songwriter of the last 25 years

such nonsense.

posted on the ile thread but this breaks my heart:

"I am going to say something I have never said before and this is the truth. I have no reason to lie to you and God knows I am telling the truth. I think all my success and fame, and I have wanted it, I have wanted it because I wanted to be loved. That's all. That's the real truth. I wanted people to love me, truly love me, because I never really felt loved. I said I know I have an ability. Maybe if I sharpened my craft, maybe people will love me more. I just wanted to be loved because I think it is very important to be loved and to tell people that you love them and to look in their eyes and say it."

greatest dancer/performer.

but with songs so easy to buy online I find it more irritating in this case - and maybe even as cynical as this reaction. xposts

This particular line, maybe I'm just confused with what you were going after there..

(xxpost)

He's got maybe 10 great songs he can claim sole credit for and even that's being generous to include the stuff from over 25 years ago (Billie Jean of course, Beat It, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, etc.)

Those songs are great, but the King of Pop hyperbole is such blatant PR nonsense it's always irritated me how eagerly that stuff got parroted and uncritically accepted as the gospel truth

I mean shit Dr. Dre has more great songs than MJ in the past 25 years

but can he claim sole credit for them????

last 30 (or 31 lol) years.

also it doesnt matter that he cant claim sole credit for them.

i guess it doesn't matter that Dre can't sing, dance etc.

but the KoP tag was applied safe in the knowledge that no other figure could lay claim to such a title with much credibility anyway. it means little if there's no real competition, but that wasn't the point.

it seems to me if yr gonna go into hyperbolic overdrive about his songwriting prowess, actual credits matter.

no other figure could lay claim to such a title with much credibility anyway.

Madonna (if she was a man I guess, lolz), Prince in his heyday, etc. etc shit I'm sure Puffy would've taken that title if he had thought of it first

i had a hand in all his hits

shakey youre either being willfully obtuse or just b-hurt--its all well and good to compare prince and mj and madonna on the strength of their songwriting, instrument playing, dancing, whatever, but when it comes to global recognition and popularity, like, one of these dudes is one of the ten most famous people in the planet, and two of them arent

yes I know but global recognition + popularity /= songwriting credits

headhittingagainstwall.jpg

yeah heres whats weird tho--get ready to get your mind blown--"king of pop" isnt the same as "king of songwriting"

michael is more like sinatra or elvis than any of those people, i really don't think doing math equations about his songwriting really matters.

i can't believe MJ had the audacity to call himself the King of Songwriting Credits

haha xp

prince wrote his own songs...

shakey geir hongro.

i can't believe MJ had the audacity to call himself the King of Songwriting Credits

You've been hit by a smooth settlement involving ASCAP.

i can't believe MJ had the audacity to call himself the King of Songwriting Credits

Lunchtime in North America is bringing the lolz. Well-played!

michael is more like sinatra or elvis than any of those people, i really don't think doing math equations about his songwriting really matters.

totally agree. Chuck brought up the songwriting thing and I was pretty clear about that.

it's pretty easy to see why who "writes" the song would matter to some people...

the King of HEEEE-HEEEEEE

HEEEEE-HEEEEEEEE vs. Prince AAAAAHAGHGHGHGH

michael is such a distinctive performer and singer i guess the importance of songwriting hardly seems relevant...like who else could have done billy jean....or beat it....or any number of songs...like michael's singing was so unconventional and his delivery and interpretation of a song seems just as much of a creative step as like writing down the "melody" (which michael i guarantee totally customized to how he sang anyway) or the rhythm track, etc

thought this was interesting. A timeline of how Michael Jackson's songs performed on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/06/25/arts/0625-jackson-graphic.html

whoah Mariah!

On the Sudden Passing of Michael Jackson.
Raymond Q. Smuckles
President, Prime Time Records

It’s bad. It’s bad around here. It’s like today was fake. Even the sunlight seems staged. I wish they’d take it away.

When I got the Celebrity Death Beep on my Blackberry, I blew it off as a dumb rumor. That service is good, but I can see it makin’ mistakes. A false headline at, like, The Onion coulda’ triggered it. Michael had an eye on his health constantly. You know that about him. We all know the lengths he went to for health. Dude slept in a hyperbaric chamber. I like my health, but I ain’t gonna go that far, you know? Michael’s health was, to him, a special, magical thing. Something worth machines.

What I think a lotta folks are feelin’ now is a regret. Not regret that a man died; no. They regret that for almost three decades they been mockin’ this guy. This guy who wrote Thriller, and PYT, and Billie Jean. You know who you are, you Michael deniers, listenin’ to your The Cure or Aerosmith. You always considered Michael’s music silly. Not serious. Lame, mainstream. “Popular.” And his life — everyone gets a kick outta’ watchin’ the mighty fall. It sells paper. It makes us feel falsely superior, from our low places. Yet now, now that he’ll never sing another note, you listen to those songs anew —ABC, I Want You Back, Beat It — and you know who he was. Michael had more talent in his little finger than any act today has among four men. Try wakin’ up tomorrow and writin’ We Are The World. See what you come up with. See if you can get Stevie and Tina to come down to the studio, along with Bruce and Billy and twenty other people who cost a whole hell of a lotta money at the time.

Michael was our music. The next time you’re out alone in your car, and Smooth Criminal comes on, it’s gonna mean somethin’ different to you. You’re not gonna change it this time. You’re gonna hear it and think to yourself, “I missed knowin’ his music in the moment.” I don’t blame The Cure. That was your call. The Cure is just out there, like car horns or people who make noise when they cry. The Cure is a choice. When we hear Michael, it is not a choice to feel the beat. It is not a choice to cock your head and straighten all the fingers on your right hand.

His story went out like a light today, and now all we have is his music. He can’t make any more mistakes.* We can’t say anything bad about him anymore.**

R.I.P., Michael. You moved more wax than anybody, player.***

-=Ray Smuckles=-
Achewood Estates, CA
June 25, 2009

* Unless there is something weird in his will.
** I wish this were true.
*** Except: The Beatles (they had a huge head start), Elvis (even bigger head start), and Bing Crosby (40-year head start, and declining super-fast).

This guy who wrote Thriller, and PYT,

ARRRRGH MICHAEL JACKSON DID NOT WRITE EITHER OF THESE SONGS YOU FUCKING MORON

You're getting mad at an Achewood character.

shakey, that's a kinda joke obit written by an internet cartoon cat, lol xpost

posts very much in character

wait you mean there isn't a real person named Ray Smuckles

if only

(anywayz, sorry, i just thought it was funny)

"A little dog cat named Ray Smuckles"

ray smuckles otm

lol @ "The next time you’re out alone in your car, and Smooth Criminal comes on, it’s gonna mean somethin’ different to you. You’re not gonna change it this time." Because this is exactly what I did last night

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2439/3605223811_d8f4271572.jpg?v=0

lol @ "The next time you’re out alone in your car, and Smooth Criminal comes on, it’s gonna mean somethin’ different to you. You’re not gonna change it this time." Because this is exactly what I did last night

― tylerw, Friday, June 26, 2009 1:12 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

seriously...i listened to MJ on the radio for like 4 hours on and off last night, and as i was getting home actually jammed to "the girl is mine"

yeah i was digging on some mj in the car

i did however, change the station when "Dirty Diana" came on -- that song made me uncomfortable as an 8-year-old. Mighta been too intense for me then ... and now.

MJ = Dirty Diana.

dirty diana always made me uncomfortable too

we had a family friend named diana whos kids i played with and it made me think mj knew something about her i didn't.
song also coincided with puberty for me, so probably a little of that too.

An artist friend just emailed me a jpeg of Dana Schutz's 2005 painting "The Autopsy of Michael Jackson." I have too much respect for MJ (and too little for Dana) to post it here, but it does remind me that the world of the visual arts seems to run five years in advance of the rest of us.

All the media coverage has made me realize that clips of him moon walking and the documentation of his incomprehensible self-mutilation will never lose their power, no matter how many times you see them.

?

"Dirty Diana" the video made me uncomfortable back then. I think maybe the shirtless stuff?

Try wakin’ up tomorrow and writin’ We Are The World. See what you come up with. See if you can get Stevie and Tina to come down to the studio, along with Bruce and Billy and twenty other people who cost a whole hell of a lotta money at the time.

Not that difficult. The people who write the American Idol winners' songs can write shit like "We Are the World" in their sleep. If it was written this year, it might as well have been a victory song for Kris Allen, or a tribute with all the Idols on stage during the last episode. Plus special guest star Stevie Wonder (who has appeared on Idol) and a few others.

Yeah let's not pretend that ANY of the AI victory songs were even close to as good as the incredibly corny "We Are The World". The only one that might have a chance is Fantasia's and that's solely because of the way she sang it.

* Surprised the Entertainment Tonight final photo of MJ hasn't appeared here yet.

* "Rock With You" was knocking out the speakers at Subway awhile ago. Now I want to go to the roller rink for some reason.

* Lionel Ritchie co-wrote "We Are the World". Can't wait for him to get credit for bringing Steve Perry and Ray Charles together after he's gone.

michael fantasia is such a distinctive performer and singer i guess the importance of songwriting hardly seems relevant...like michael's fantasia's singing was so unconventional and his her delivery and interpretation of a song seems just as much of a creative step as like writing down the "melody" (which michael fantasia i guarantee totally customized to how he she sang anyway) or the rhythm track, etc

― matt h. (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, June 26, 2009 11:47 AM (1 hour ago)

Hey, neat how this works! xpost

dude i copyright all my shit, you need sample clearance

Not to knock MJ, but I think the "right place right time" thing is as much a factor in his popularity as his actual talent.

also you really think fantasia is as distinctive a vocalist and performer as MJ, like for serious or are you just being difficult?

Not to knock MJ, but I think the "right place right time" thing is as much a factor in his popularity as his actual talent.

― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Friday, June 26, 2009 2:00 PM (52 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hmmm i dont think anyone had thought of this before weird

also you really think fantasia is as distinctive a vocalist and performer as MJ, like for serious or are you just being difficult?

uh..... YES

I mean, she's not a dancer and she had no chance of being as transformative as MJ because she's not cute, but she can and will sing the fuck out of a song.

i said vocalist and performer...like um...you know the whole dancing thing was more than just a little important w/r/t michael

plus i mean she's a good singer but i said distinctive...like no one sings like michael...all the vocal mannerisms and stuff, it was mad distinctive c'mon

i mean it's like i'm not gonna go on some thread and say the dude from black mountain is a more distinctive guitarist than hendrix or something

I was conceding the "performer" part.

I am saying that Fantasia, as a singer, is as distinctive as Michael Jackson; the timbre of her voice combined with the way she phrases and (ESPECIALLY) the way she screams is unlike anyone else out there.

I mean, fucking listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-YQoFu4Lao

plus saying how "distinctive" something or someone is = not actually a value judgement

ok u guys win, fantasia def is on par with MJ i guess?

also i think she's cute actually not ugly

Except for the fact that Chuck said MJ might have been the greatest songwriter of the last 25 years. I don't know how you could reasonably make that claim -- putting Thriller aside, you'd have to include 1) the disco songs from Off the Wall (good, not the the greatest "songs"), 2) Bad, which I always found to be his first garish record, 3) anything after.

That's not to say he didn't write song really great songs -- but this is the kind of hyperbole everyone seems to be getting sucked up into.

― Naive Teen Idol, Friday, June 26, 2009 7:00 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

actual non-joking suggest ban.

what jim said - i've never owned off the wall either, weirdly - i guess i didn't think i needed it b/c its songs were so ubiquitous already

― lex pretend, Friday, June 26, 2009 8:15 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

the thing is ... theyre not all that ubiquitous! how often do u hear 'get on the floor'?? buy that album lex.

He's got maybe 10 great songs he can claim sole credit for and even that's being generous to include the stuff from over 25 years ago (Billie Jean of course, Beat It, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, etc.)

Those songs are great, but the King of Pop hyperbole is such blatant PR nonsense it's always irritated me how eagerly that stuff got parroted and uncritically accepted as the gospel truth

― And the biggest self of self is, indeed, self (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, June 26, 2009 11:20 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Actual suggest ban.

Not to knock MJ, but I think the "right place right time" thing is as much a factor in his popularity as his actual talent.

― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Friday, June 26, 2009 1:00 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

shut the fuck up!!! actual suggest ban

thanks for breaking it down for us, deej.

deej taking it mad personal

this thread is pretty unbearable to read. u would think the fact that weve even coined 'challops' as a term might convince some of u to take a step back & think about what you are posting bfore dropping your impressive HEY FOLKS IM AN INDIVIDUAL!!! opinions but noooo

deej taking it mad personal

― velko, Friday, June 26, 2009 1:17 PM (18 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hey guys u know what -- i think jesus wasnt actually all that great -- there are other prophets you know??? i heard he didnt even write his own bible

fantasia has as distinctive a voice as i've ever heard, really.

i did buy OTW deej! though 'get on the floor' was one of the ones i was pretty familiar with already. really i don't know why so much of MJ's discography fell thru the cracks for me - i don't own ANY jackson 5 stuff which is embarrassing (so which album/compilation should i get? don't just want to d/l the hits one by one)

Thanks deej, I wish I had the heart to suggest ban every time I disagreed with an opposing comment on an Internet message board! Totally its intended use, you know.

Not trying to be an "individual," just saying what I believe. He truly was in the right place at the right time and if you cannot see that then you're being willfully ignorant. Most every pop star becomes famous partly due to chance/luck as well as talent...

cosine with deej on all above posts

also you really think fantasia is as distinctive a vocalist and performer as MJ, like for serious or are you just being difficult?

And to answer this question -- I think she's a better vocalist and not as good a performer.

i basically agree w/him on all points anyway but when madonna dies, i shall be the deej of that thread

to reiterate what i said above -- "as distinctive" has nothing to do with "as good"

some dude OTM re: people giving "distinctive" more weight than it deserves

Fantasia has/had the potential to be amazing but was not in the right place at the right time. (Also, she is not Hollywood cute.)

on a less contentious tip:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2009/06/jacksons-death-leaves-aeg-in-the-lurch-.html
Four hour physical that found nothing wrong and he dies a month later?

ilxor in being a big fucking idiot non-shocker

Eric Hutchinson Performs "OK, It's Alright with Me" on Jimmy Kimmel with a single sequined glove atop his piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=870ZraBgAj8

ilxor in being a big fucking idiot non-shocker

jon /via/ chi 2.0 in calling out ilxor without contributing any useful opinions to thread non-shocker?

I was hoping to avoid getting sucked into this clusterfuck of a thread, but your idiotic insistence about MJ just being "lucky" was driving me batty.

i kind of assumed jon meants that 'ilxors' in general were all being idiots on this thread (which i did not deign to disagree with)

your idiotic insistence about MJ just being "lucky"

Actually, I said it was a combination of his *TALENT* plus a certain amount of luck.

I did initially, but angstypants there had to get all pissy.

(xpost)

cue "is Hari back?" jokes

Seriously done with this thread anyway, pretty sad all around.

Lex, re: Jackson 5 - The Ultimate Collection should do you well. And while I own Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad, I somehow lacked everything from Dangerous forward, and hadn't dusted off Off the Wall in AGES. Like...to the point where I missed that Mariah's "I'm That Chick" directly quotes the bridge until I went back to my vinyl copy last night. Michael is sort of like the Beatles for me, where his music (well, his HITS at least) is so ubiquitous that it can be difficult to engage with the musical and lyrical content behind the ICONIC-ness of it all.

Mariah's "I'm That Chick" directly quotes the bridge

Huh, it struck me that it was a very MJ-ish bridge, but I hadn't noticed a direct quote.

hahaha quote from another message board

On the main page for pornhub.com they have a thing that says, "The PornHub Team Will Miss The King Of Pop, Michael Jackson (1958-2009)"

there ain't no rules it's up to you...

thx alex, ultimate collection here i come.

btw this was unintentional but i have listened to NOTHING ELSE but mj today, apart from a brief detour into janet. don't see this state of affairs ending any time soon - for all that these songs are "ubiquitous" i haven't given them enough listening time at all in the past few years.

Agreed. I'd been getting back into him recently since Freaky Trigger ran their 'Billie Jean' piece. It's a little surprising how many of these tunes I don't know.

Just remembered that a good friend of mine suggested a while back that MJ should be the next to get the Johnny Cash American Recordings treatment. Just stripped-down standards and let the guy sing. I thought that a was a fantastic idea and is another reason I'm sad today.

The vocal tracks on the Thriller remaster don't suggest that acapellas are where he did his best work past a certain age; I always thought of him as a studio creature.

^^^forks OTM - when was "stripped down" ever a good match for MJ

also those johnny cash albums are totally morbid

"I always thought of him as a studio creature." OTM, for better or worse.

when was "stripped down" ever a good match for MJ

that "Simpsons" episode, for starters...

also those johnny cash albums are totally morbid

so you dig 'em?

stripped down was great when he was in J5!

forks OTM - when was "stripped down" ever a good match for MJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62defVm8GRk

Kind of his "Starfish and Coffee"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CoxNzOOoQU
I was thinking more like the sound in this clip, rather than a mortal acoustic thing. Him doing standards with a four-piece band would've been awesome if the pipes were still up to it. (best to ignore Prince's bizarro appearance, probably)

what, are you kidding? Prince's "tear down the lamppost" appearance in that is one of the GREAT prince moments.

What in the hell is happening in that clip

Am I right in thinking that, upthread, certain people are being all rockist bollocks about songwriting credits? On ILM? In 2009? Fucking hell. Besides, Jacko wrote a serious big handful of fucking amazing songs on his own, so even if he didn't write Thriller or Rock With You or whatever, who gives a fuck. No one ever covered anything by him with any success cos no one else could hold a candle.

Dude was fucked up. Seriously. Awful childhood. Just wanted to be loved. Who knows now if he actually did inappropriate things with kids. But I do know that OTW is a fucking amazing record and he was, hands down, the most famous and loved (in a celebrity sense) man in the world for a long time.

Am I right in thinking that, upthread, certain people are being all rockist bollocks about songwriting credits? On ILM? In 2009?

I dunno how many times I have to point this out (a few more, evidently?) but when a critic (in this case xhuxh) specifically brings up SONGWRITING credits then yes I am gonna call bullshit on unearned accolades

>> the most famous and loved (in a celebrity sense) man in the world

With all due respect to him and you, I don't think he was ever afforded the opportunity to grow up to be a man, hence the tragedy of it all. And if, like me, you believe that pop is all about eternal adolescence, who better to be king of it all?

Damn, I'm trying to listen to Off the Wall and can't make it past "Rock With You". While I was definitely shocked and saddened hearing of his death, I never really got emotional it until now, hearing this song.

listening to "Wanna Be Startin' Something" god the breakdown at the end is so great

how the fuck does fantasia end up getting compared to MJ? no one sounded like MJ as a singer. fantasias powerful but distinct? not really. MJs underrated as a singer actually. young MJ is the best/most pure singer ever but older MJ could still do tender ballads like butterflies as well as get rapsy/JBish like say the ending of just good friends.

"fantasias powerful but distinct? not really. "

how could u hear her and not think shes a distinct singer

i sincerely apologize for ever using the word "distinctive" in this thread which, as some dude and others have pointed out, isn't even a qualitative statement.

i ask for the voters of ILX and most importantly my family for their forgiveness.

Tell us about that sparking thing again, Matt.

i regret that i informed by staff that i was taking the allspark to the appalachian trails when in fact i was transporting the matrix of leadership to argentina

>> the most famous and loved (in a celebrity sense) man in the world

I don't believe that to be true, and even if it was ever true, for other people, even for thirty seconds, I wouldn't feel obliged to give a shit.

yeah, you tell em soukesian

I love you Max. In a celebrity sense.

I totally agree that our media does't grasp the idea that someone can be a brilliant artist and a complete train wreck of a human being. Maybe what is even more disturbing is the suspicion that the art and the alleged crimes comes from the same psychological need. Momus got it totally wrong, Jackson's public persona doesn't fit into a neat little post-modern box, he's more Freudian. I can't think of too many other recent celebrities that have been so successful turning their childhood traumas into compelling art. Of course, it had to eventually go bad, what was once supple and tight became bloated and overbearing. Think of the difference between Don't Stop Til You Get Enough and Black or White.

Anyway, this song!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_hz2am90Hk&feature=channel_page
Beats every trendy post-punk punk-funk critical favorite to a bloody pulp.

I can't believe I never heard 'Get on the floor' before today. MJ didn't die in vain.

yeah it was all worth it in the end

Beats every trendy post-punk punk-funk critical favorite to a bloody pulp.

Hey now, James Chance covered it. Oh you mean these days.

I can't believe I never heard 'Get on the floor' before today. MJ didn't die in vain.

― idi sedgwick (brownie), Friday, June 26, 2009 4:27 PM (39 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dont know how someone can even post on a music board and not know 'off the wall' front -> back.

i dont really feel like i could say that about too many albums

unless you're like 16?

i think the main hurdle to posting on a music board is getting your isp paid on time
i didn't hear off the wall until after college.

& didnt u feel silly??

deej you're being dumb and haughty about strange things on this thread, and i'm not just saying that because i've only heard OTW in full once or twice

xpost

uh. didn't i feel silly? i don't know; do you feel silly for not being intimately familiar with Ole' Coltrane? Or McCoy Tyner's Extensions?

genius unstoppably great albums are surprisingly numerous; i would never hold ignorance of a song/lp/body of work against someone. Just their willful disregard of a corpus in favor of a cheap haughty lol or bullshit challop.

http://nymag.com/daily/food/2009/06/the_jacko_wine_pairing_heres_h.html?mid=grubstreet--20090626

haha deej really needs to sit down on his bed and count to 10

for me, a big part of michael was just a shared pop experience, so if people only know the big video hits that they saw growing up or played on the radio that seems somewhat appropriate in a way.

Not trying to be an "individual," just saying what I believe. He truly was in the right place at the right time and if you cannot see that then you're being willfully ignorant. Most every pop star becomes famous partly due to chance/luck as well as talent...

― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Friday, June 26, 2009 2:18 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^ this is dumb tho, like why bother even pointing that kind of shit out. omg if michael hadn't been born totally by chance with a good voice he would never have become a star!! just sayin!!!

someone came in the store and said that sony is on a 24 hour work schedule to meet demand for MJ product. they are churning it out.

they all want to qualify for posting on ilm probably

dont know how someone can even post on a music board and not know 'off the wall' front -> back.

Oh come on. I'm sure if some noob came on here and said that shit about Sgt. Pepper or Blonde on Blonde or whatever, you'd be one of the first to scoff.

jaymc just outed himself as a non-owner of Off The Wall.

deej you're being dumb and haughty about strange things on this thread, and i'm not just saying that because i've only heard OTW in full once or twice

xpost

― some dude, Friday, June 26, 2009 5:10 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ehhh i dunno. i kind of think, especially considering the kind of pop music you write about, 'haughtily' critiquing dudes like ne-yo and the-dream day in & day out, you should kinda be familiar with one of the primary influences, frameworks, etc for their entire approach to pop.

one thing ive never really understood about this board & music 'crit' in general is the degree to which ppl will take reveling in ignorance as a 'fresh perspective' instead of an uninformed one.

no one can hear everything, no doubt about it -- and everyone's outlook is valuable if they can express themselves in effective ways. but theres this almost flaunting 'ha i've never even HEARD your masterpiece!' b.s. that strikes me as super-tired when it comes to an artist so central to the pop music experience

Oh come on. I'm sure if some noob came on here and said that shit about Sgt. Pepper or Blonde on Blonde or whatever, you'd be one of the first to scoff.

― great gabbneb's ghost (jaymc), Friday, June 26, 2009 5:29 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i disagree that blonde on blonde is nearly as central to what pop music is 'about' now -- sgt pepper MAYBE but if someone came into a thread talking like that when paul dies id probably say 'thats pretty stupid,' yeah

i mean i like that yall are getting all madd doggie at me when dude just said mj didnt die in vain since it led to him discovering a track that hes been ignoring til now

Uh, deej, you're reminding me a little too much of when you first joined the board and were complaining that people hadn't seemed to have read everything you already had.

jaymc just outed himself as a non-owner of Off The Wall.

I own it and enjoy it and tbh probably listen to it more than I do Thriller, but I also didn't buy it until a few years ago and wouldn't expect anyone, really, to know it "front-to-back."

I'm sure if some noob came on here and said that shit about Sgt. Pepper or Blonde on Blonde or whatever

this happens all the time

Well, i think "Off the Wall" is good enough to be like "u havent heard it???? GO GET THAT SHIT" about so yeah

basically, MJ still isnt really all that respected artistically. if he were OTW would be part of the same must-hear canon as sgt peppers, blonde on blonde, etc etc.

*respected by rock crits etc. well maybe he is more in the US but not so much in the UK imo.

wha? off the wall and thriller are hella canon

UK, well those dudes liked libertines whaddya gonna do? there's some men you just can't reach.

An MJ album has made every canonical list since at least 1990, when Rolling Stone unveiled its best albums of the eighties.

wha? off the wall and thriller are hella canon

yeah this is undeniable

original 79 rolling stone review for off the wall (rating 4.5/5 stars)

seems pretty canon right from jump:

Like many an aging child star, Michael Jackson has had to grow up gracefully in public in order to survive. Until now, he's understandably clung to the remnants of his original Peter Pan of Motown image while cautiously considering the role of the young prince. Off the Wall marks Jackson's first decisive step toward a mature show-business personality, and except for some so-so material, it's a complete success.

A slick, sophisticated R&B-pop showcase with a definite disco slant, Off the Wall presents Michael Jackson as the Stevie Wonder of the Eighties. This resemblance is strongest on "I Can't Help It" (cowritten by Wonder), in which Jackson's vocal syncopation is reminiscent of the master's breathless, dreamy stutter.

Throughout, Jackson's feathery-timbred tenor is extraordinarily beautiful. It slides smoothly into a startling falsetto that's used very daringly. The singer's ultradramatic phrasing, which takes huge emotional risks and wins every time, wrings the last drop of pathos from Tom Bahler's tear-jerker, "She's Out of My Life." "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough" (written and coproduced by Jackson) is one of a handful of recent disco releases that works both as a dance track and as an aural extravaganza comparable to Earth, Wind and Fire's "Boogie Wonderland." The rest of the dance music touches several grooves, from jazzy South American to mainstream pop funk.

A triumph for producer Quincy Jones as well as for Michael Jackson, Off the Wall represents discofied post-Motown glamour at its classiest.

i mean, theyre canon, but maybe cos mj himself is so ubiqitous, theyre not taken as seriously. its more about the world records, weirdness, celeb-ness, etc. or maybe im just playing my anti rock(ism) card.

i gotta unbookmark this thread now i think

titchy rong-challops combos & me getting butthurt on behalf of an artist are pretty much standard ilx material -- found the 'irreverent' mj 'jokes' upthread much more suspect

Okay I just now remembered reading this from earlier today via Facebook -- and it's from a friend of Alex in NYC's no less:

I once worked with a kid in a movie theater who literally tried to kill me because I didn't agree that MJ or Prince were the BestMusiciansofAllTime. That kid turned out to be Maxwell, and last time I saw him, 5 years ago, he threatened to kill me again.

hahahaha

and now you know the rest of the story

This piece is INCREDIBLE:
http://ernesthardy.blogspot.com/2009/06/michael-jackson-bless-his-soul.html

some of the best music writing ive read all year

<q> So many of the tributes being written, especially by Negroes, and most especially by Negro males, think they are bestowing the ultimate praise on him by positioning him alongside conventional, traditional soul men or icons of Negro male cool. Make that unquestionable hetero Negro male cool. But the thing about Michael, especially in his adolescent and early adult years, was that he resonated so powerfully precisely because he upended and shimmered beyond gender convention. It seems especially noteworthy that he cemented his solo superstar status during the gender-bending / gender-fucking era of the early ‘80s, alongside Boy George, Annie Lennox, Prince, a funkily reinvigorated Grace Jones – though he was a seasoned old pro in comparison to all of them. (It was his second start at a solo career.) Because his gender-tweak shit was subtle relative to those artists, it doesn’t really get commented upon. But Mike evolved from childhood mimicry of the masculinity of soul titans to something more complex and more layered. It was his. And it eventually housed a much more problematic sexuality. It’s difficult (if not impossible) to know the ways in which his abusive childhood, the adult responsibilities carried on his childhood shoulders, and the paradoxically sheltered and wide-open pop star lifestyle he lived at an early age all contoured his sexuality, and to then fully know what inclinations and fetishes might have been innate and which were externally shaped.

Curiously absent from the praise and aesthetic roll-call being put forth for Mike is one name: Diana Ross. His obsession with and emulation of her are well documented but she’s not being cited in the obits. It’s a glaring and telling omission that has much to do with the low critical regard in which Ross is held, and the reluctance of critics to own up to not just the deep influence that diva Ross had on boy wonder Jackson, but on the ways in which her persona and performing style play out in his style.</q>

fucked up that quote but yeah

Such a touching, heartfelt and selfless final paragraph!

Buy my books Blood Beats Vol. 1 or Vol. 2 at Amazon:
click here

Just kidding, deej. I'm reading the whole thing now.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for this beautiful, emotional, morally centered and historically insightful appreciation.
June 26, 2009 4:29 PM

QFT

Just kidding, deej. I'm reading the whole thing now.

― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Friday, June 26, 2009 7:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol was bout to strangle u thru the monitor

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=42291868&blogId=497035326

Scrolling down to the friends after that, wow.

I couldn't even get through that Ernest Hardy post.

You can call the omission of Diana Ross mentions a "snub" or you can measure it against the fact that there is barely any mention of Motown or any fellow Motown artists in most of the brief obits. The bulk of what made MJ notable happened after he left Motown so I'm not surprised. And I don't see why the obits neglecting to highlight Michael's influences is in any way strange; it's Michael Fucking Jackson ffs, they aren't going to waste space talking about his influences as if he's "one to watch" in 2009 or some shit. He influenced everyone else, that's the point, that's why he's relevant.

Scrolling down to the friends after that, wow.

just.. yeah. Gummo vs. the day-shift strippers.

I don't see why the obits neglecting to highlight Michael's influences is in any way strange; it's Michael Fucking Jackson ffs, they aren't going to waste space talking about his influences as if he's "one to watch" in 2009 or some shit. He influenced everyone else, that's the point, that's why he's relevant.

Oh yeah?

Here's the list of Michael Jackson's influences from Allmusic.com:

Influenced By

Stevie Wonder
Diana Ross
Paul McCartney
Ray Charles
James Brown
Jackie Wilson
The Beatles
Uri Geller

And here's a list of his followers, also thanks to Allmusic:

Followers

DeBarge
Roachford
Rockwell
Tevin Campbell
LaToya Jackson
Charles & Eddie
Al B. Sure!
Kevin Michael
Teddy Riley
Emily King
Pharrell Williams
Sammie
Llama
Christina Milian
Kalimba
Suburban Legends
Under the Influence of Giants
Toby Love
Corbin Bleu
Ray Lavender

You tell me which list is more relevant, MJ's influences or his followers... and yes, I realize I'm being difficult and an ass but even MJ was influenced by plenty of credible artists who came before him, and also influenced a ton of artists no one gives a shit about.

MJ is not relevant because of who he's influenced. If anything, he's relevant in spite of it.

oh goooooooooooooood

You'd better not be talking about DeBarge.

the whole who-they-influenced thing is a pointless line of discussion for any artist, but just to state the obvious -- justin timberlake and beyonce. and their entire generation of pop/r&b singers. michael's syncopated singing really prefigured a whole style (a style that tends to get attributed to hip-hop, but the thing is michael had already made r&b ready and pliable to bend melodies to hip-hop rhythms).

also wtf @ allmusic giving michael credit for latoya but not janet?

No disrespect to AMG here. It is an impressive feat, what they've set out to accomplish, but their influnces(ed)/similar artist lists often seem like they're randomly cobbled together by some malfunctioning algorithm.

did you really have to pull up some amg list to figure out who MJ influenced? I mean, really? And you think that list is complete and comprehensive?

sigh

Anyway if you bothered to read you would have noticed that I was talking specifically about the content of the obituaries, not about the importance of influences in general. Like I was saying, pointing out influences is more of an journalistic illustrative technique for when the subject is not familiar to audiences. They hardly need to go into detail about MJ's music because we all know it well. So that they didn't mention Diana Ross or James Brown or the Temptations doesn't surprise or offend me.

did you really have to pull up some amg list to figure out who MJ influenced? I mean, really? And you think that list is complete and comprehensive?

Of course not, was mostly for laughs.

all that cutting and pasting and you managed to make not a single valid point, way to go bro

I still can't believe Mariah Carey has more #1s than Michael Jackson

all that cutting and pasting and you managed to make not a single valid point, way to go bro

Guilty as charged but, frankly, I'm not the only one. This could be ILM's new motto on the main page...

this retardgument between 'ilxor' & 'musically' -- which of these dudes /are both of these dudes sockpuppets? just checking

I couldn't even get through that Ernest Hardy post.

You can call the omission of Diana Ross mentions a "snub" or you can measure it against the fact that there is barely any mention of Motown or any fellow Motown artists in most of the brief obits. The bulk of what made MJ notable happened after he left Motown so I'm not surprised. And I don't see why the obits neglecting to highlight Michael's influences is in any way strange; it's Michael Fucking Jackson ffs, they aren't going to waste space talking about his influences as if he's "one to watch" in 2009 or some shit. He influenced everyone else, that's the point, that's why he's relevant.

― master of karate and friendship for everyone (musically), Friday, June 26, 2009 9:48 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is totally misreading ... the entire thing. based on what u wrote im not surprised you 'couldn't even get through' the post

lots of obits are talking about the artists that influenced him. they talk about putting him in a lineage of black male artists. & he's pointing out that diana ross was as much a fundamental part of his understanding of what a pop star was as anyone else

you're entirely misreading what hes saying

Carry on guys.

iirc AMG's "influence" lists are generated by some arcane process involving ned raggett, a blindfold and some darts

http://www.suicidecat.com/sketchy/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/sock_puppets_black_russian.jpg

Fucks sake velko don't make me change my login twice in two minutes

yeah I'm a sock puppet created 5 years ago in preparation for Michael Jackson's death threads.

im just saying, ilxor is presenting a deeznuts style argument & u just fell into it ...

but regardless, the article is about how gender is an issue that writers (particularly straight ones) always seem to avoid while placing MJ in a lineage of other straight male black performers, & the reason he thinks they should mention diana ross is evident in those videos he links to, that obviously MJ's aesthetic was a lot more complicated in terms of gender roles

Looks like "Morphine" won't be underrated much longer

― da croupier, Friday, June 26, 2009 2:24 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

yeah, i'd never heard it before today. it's pretty great. though obviously that's not why it is now suddenly well-known.

I don't know what a deeznuts style argument is.

I was not talking about general critical minimization of Diana Ross's role in MJ's life and career (which may or may not exist, I don't know) but specifically his comments about the glaring omission of Ross in MJ's obits. Her omission would have been glaring if the obits had been contextualizing MJ with his artistic peers and influences, but they haven't been. The main comparisons I have seen have been with Elvis and The Beatles only in terms of scope.

The obits right now are reactionary newsy ones, when Rolling Stone et al come out with their big reflection pieces I think his piece might be relevant, but at the moment, with the written pieces I have seen, his premise is flawed.

Tim mentions the vitiligo upthread, Jackson was also diagnosed with lupus

The last rehearsal, as remembered by Kenny Ortega and others

and the probably-nonexistent bootleg of that rehearsal now becomes fetish object #1...

dont know how someone can even post on a music board and not know what a deeznuts style argument is front -> back.

Tim mentions the vitiligo upthread, Jackson was also diagnosed with lupus

MJ Dilla! (srr not funny)

Influenced By
...
Uri Geller

lol

"michael's syncopated singing really prefigured a whole style (a style that tends to get attributed to hip-hop, but the thing is michael had already made r&b ready and pliable to bend melodies to hip-hop rhythms)."

funk singing = not the same as hip hop singing.

too much michael?
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-rutten27-2009jun27,0,7268941.column

You've written a whole article about there being too many Michael Jackson articles, Mr. Rutten.

Lupus is the more serious disease obv. Vitiligo is more dramatic visually (esp. for a black person). Which maybe makes it count for more in celebrity-terms. Disclaimer: the vitiligo thing interests me partly because I have it but it's not so noticeable.

I was not talking about general critical minimization of Diana Ross's role in MJ's life and career (which may or may not exist, I don't know) but specifically his comments about the glaring omission of Ross in MJ's obits. Her omission would have been glaring if the obits had been contextualizing MJ with his artistic peers and influences, but they haven't been. The main comparisons I have seen have been with Elvis and The Beatles only in terms of scope.

The obits right now are reactionary newsy ones, when Rolling Stone et al come out with their big reflection pieces I think his piece might be relevant, but at the moment, with the written pieces I have seen, his premise is flawed.

― master of karate and friendship for everyone (musically), Friday, June 26, 2009 11:29 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yr suggesting he just fabricated the notion that MJ has been placed in a little richard - james brown - prince lineage? seriously?

That piece is really good btw.

man the teddy riley tracks from dangerous are so sick. "jam", "why you wannna trip on me", "remember the time": his syncopated scat-style vocals works so well over minimal beats. this is my favourite michael right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJsvoaXXNrQ

As for Jackson's followers, the list sees to lack Justin Timberlake, who - well, you may like or not like him (not much of a fan myself), but he is undeniably one of the most popular acts of this decade, and has even gotten his share of favourable reviews by "hipsters" as well.

Otherwise, Jackson's influence may be cultural to a larger extent than being musical. I mean, consider the fact that before Jackson, no black act could even get on MTV, and the only black acts that might have been considered "superstar" were Diana Ross and Stevie Wonder (pluss possibly briefly Donna Summer). Jackson's mega popularity opened the floodgates for African American acts to a much larger extent than before, and the current popularity of hip-hop and R&B might never have happened. Musically, Jackson didn't have all that much in common with hip-hop, but most hip-hop acts still consider him a really huge hero, and well, even outside of music, there are even those who say that Obama might never had happened hadn't it been for Michael Jackson.

Then again - a weird personal life aside (and that was the case even if you consider him innocent of what he was cleared of) - he made some fantastic music, and his cultural impact was pretty much large. You could say his influences were bigger than his followers, yes, but you could also say the same about The Beatles, Elvis, Rolling Stones, Madonna, Pink Floyd, Bee Gees, Prince and pretty much any mega star ever. That doesn't make them any less important though. Just that they were too unique to follow without the followers looking like copycats.

LOVE when he starts wiling out at the end of "do you remember the time": "do you remember? in the bar! on the beach! ...in spain!!!"

Personally I'd like to put in a word for "Baby Be Mine". Perhaps the lesser known track on "Thriller", but yhet one of my all time favourite tracks by him. It may be because it sounds very like of its time, but that particular time sounded just so much greater than any other time.

"Earth Song" has always been a bit of a guilty pleasure for me.

Uri Geller, forgot about that fraud. Him getting exposed as such on the Tonight Show was classic. They bought out spoons for him to bend and he couldn't do it (his stage spoons are tampered with).

Uri Geller is just about as much of a maniac that Jacko was.

Obama might never had happened hadn't it been for Michael Jackson.

.. is a heck of a stretch, but the rest: pretty much OTM.

Forgot to add, it's also a matter of popularity.

Following Velvet Underground, a lot of their fans could use elements like "speak singing" and their anti-fidelity playing style into their own music, and it would look like their own creation because most fans haven't heard of Velvet Underground.

However, if some male vocalist start singing with a really high voice, aborted by rhythmic breahting and exclaimations of "Awwww" and "Ch'mon!", then he's sound like some bad parody of Michael Jackson and everyone would know because Jacko was so huge nobody who paid even the least attention to showbiz would notice.

EVERYBODY would notice, I mean

yr suggesting he just fabricated the notion that MJ has been placed in a little richard - james brown - prince lineage? seriously?

― zzz (deej)

Okay, I guess you're trying to troll, because I have made it perfectly clear that I have been talking about the content of the obituaries, not about Michael Jackson critical thought in general.

"Followers" list should have included Usher and Ne-Yo obviously.. some of their videos purposely look like Michael Jackson videos for this reason.

And of course any hiphop or r&b artist who has ever sampled Michael Jackson should be noted.. so Naughty By Nature, Brandy, etc etc

From the article Ned linked, made me lol:

The show's director, Kenny Ortega -- a journeyman choreographer and movie director whose career highlights include "High School Musical," the "Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus: Best of Both Worlds Concert Tour" and "Dirty Dancing"

'COPY!':

Los Angeles Police Department sources said officials have been talking to the Jackson family about plans for a memorial, which is likely to take place in the L.A. area. The LAPD is involved in the planning because it's likely to be mopped by fans.

Oh wow:

http://blogs.myspace.com/lisamariepresley

Yeah that's been making the rounds, it's linked upthread I think. A hell of a read.

(It's on the ILE thread.)

I can't believe I never heard 'Get on the floor' before today. MJ didn't die in vain.

― idi sedgwick (brownie), Friday, June 26, 2009 4:27 PM (39 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dont know how someone can even post on a music board and not know 'off the wall' front -> back.

i dont really feel like i could say that about too many albums

― zzz (deej), Friday, June 26, 2009 6:08 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The world really is full of all kinds of people.

its a magical place hobbes

lets go exploring

eh, some things slip through the cracks if you weren't around for them...i'd never heard any of bad apart from the title track and 'smooth criminal' until yesterday. i was kind of disappointed by 'dirty diana' and 'man in the mirror' actually. i mean i haven't heard all of madonna's albums all the way through either and i'm a huge madonna fan. never heard any PSB album from before this decade, just the comps.

i was kind of being facetious/trolly obv

but 'off the wall' is kind of a cornerstone to me

Kenny's already thinking next level:

“He’s so beloved in the world, somehow, perhaps we can find a way to pay tribute to his mind, talent, vision and heart,” Ortega told The Times hours after Jackson’s death. “Maybe part of what we were planning to do in London and beyond -- maybe we can share some of these ideas in a different capacity.”

He said he was “only imagining.” But the director outlined an idea to organize a creative collaboration modeled on “We Are the World,” the 1985 song written by Jackson and Lionel Richie to benefit African charities that enlisted a group of pop superstars including Stevie Wonder, Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen and Diana Ross.

“It wouldn’t take an enlightened thinker to come up with a way,” Ortega said. “There must be a hundred ways we can celebrate this man’s legacy. Broadway. Movies. Vegas. I hope all his artist friends will come together and have a real ‘We Are the World’ where we can share stories and Michael’s legacy in some great celebration. I’m sure they would love nothing more than to be a part of it.”

I wonder if the media will make as much money of MJ's death than they did driving him to it?

i was thinking couldn't they do just the first concert in London, as the memorial one. fly in some artists doing some cover versions, couple of the routines they'd already prepared anyway, MJ in a hologram,* whatever.

*Burn his coffin on stage, magically a Peter Pan version of MJ appears and flies away.

DJ Premier did an MJ tribute mix

http://www.zshare.net/audio/61934373dba0571d/

I wonder if the media will make as much money of MJ's death than they did driving him to it?

― Adam Bruneau, Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:43 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

as a member of the media i can verify that the dollars are rolling in.. it's awesome

not sure if i'm going to make as much as i did driving MJ to his death yet tho

How much of a tip did you get?

15%

man tbh I kind of miss the pre-Internet days when slocki was driving Michael Jackson to death in print

The Jackson 5 must've had an animated Saturday morning series, yes? I foggily seem to recall one.

I wonder if I prefer "I Want You Back" to anything on Thriller ... well, why, exactly?

When is Elton John's new version of "Candle In The Wind" being released?

Poor taste stagger. The man's head caught on fire. Someone could have been hurt.

Can anyone link to some good clips of MJ performing live? All the live clips I've seen are lipsynched.

^^ that's the 80's for ya!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLX8Ibz6rB8&feature=channel

That's so good.

Last night I briefly saw Fallon; the Roots dressed a la MJ and played his music. Erykah sat in. Fallon was nervous; MJ hit him hard, visibly. He stumbled around and thanked Erykah. "Shamon," she replied.

I don't believe he's syncing here (at 11, he probly dint know how).

(TV debut, btw)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USsPvSbUbDI

i dont think he started miming til the 90s. bad tour was all the way live far as i know.

Not sure if this was posted, but Chief Justice Roberts on how to deal with Jackson in his Reagan apparatchik days;

I recognize that I am something of a vox clamans in terris in this area, but enough is enough. The Office of Presidential Correspondence is not yet an adjunct of Michael Jackson’s PR firm. “Billboard” can quite adequately cover the event by reproducing the award citation and/or reporting the President’s remarks. (As you know, there is very little to report about Mr. Jackson’s remarks.) There is absolutely no need for an additional presidential message. A memorandum for Presidential Correspondence objecting to the letter is attached for your review and signature.

This shows that maybe George Will wasn't the only one confused about Springsteen's "message":

I recommend that no such letter be sent. The Jackson tour, whatever stature it may have attained as a cultural phenomenon, is a massive commercial undertaking. The visit of the tour to Washington was not an eleemosynary gesture; it was a calculated commercial decision that does not warrant gratitude from our Nation’s Chief Executive. Such a letter would also create a bad precedent, as other popular performers would either expect or demand similar treatment. Why, for example, was no letter sent to Mr. Bruce Springsteen, whose patriotic tour recently visited the area? Finally, the President, in my view, has done quite enough in the way of thanking and congratulating the Jacksons, and anything more would begin to look like unbecoming fawning.

http://floacist.wordpress.com/2007/06/10/vitiligo-photos-michael-jackson

^^^photos of MJs vitiligo.

lol at the picture with the shadow from his hair as "evidence of vitiligo"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/jun/28/michael-jackson-life-death-music

i love how his writer says its going to be about the music then ends up about the same stuff as everything else. that quote at the end though is :(

*this

also, black or white definitely isnt the last great MJ song at all.

I never knew the 5 did "Doctor My Eyes."

Doctor My Orbius

re: that Kenny Ortega guy. one of his first jobs was choreographing this:

http://www.80svideos.tv/play.php?vid=85

old article but worth a read:
http://floacist.wordpress.com/2007/08/22/gq-article-was-michael-jackson-framed

http://www.theonion.com/content/mj

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/new_rap_song_samples_billie

loooooool

Armond:

The records “ABC,” “The Love You Save” and “I’ll Be There” exemplified youth culture’s new energy and power. Then MJ confounded convention with the startlingly poignant “Ben.” It was a strategic movie tie-in theme (for the 1972 horror flick Willard) the same year Diana Ross sought to infiltrate Hollywood with the biopic Lady Sings the Blues. But MJ took his B-movie opportunity so seriously that it quietly permeated the zeitgeist. People who don’t appreciate “Ben” don’t really appreciate pop culture and remain clueless about MJ. His tender, profound emotionality taught teenagers everywhere that they could feel more deeply than they realized.... Both “Ben” and “I Want You Back” offer the sense of immediacy special to great pop, holding witnesses in an intense private moment. It is not ironic that these records incarnate youth’s illusion of immortality. It’s a gift....

http://www.nypress.com/article-20022-in-mjrss-shadow.html

I thought "Ben" was recorded for the sequel to Willard, also called Ben.

It was. And what a strange career move that was! A tender ode to a killer rat. Not too many artists could survive that.

The career move, that is. Not the killer rat. Though it's fair to say that if the rat was indeed a killer, very few artists (or non-artists, for that matter) would be expected to survive.

Armond always gets at least one fact wrong per column.

(The song was reprised in the Willard remake that starred Crispin Glover)

http://content.yieldmanager.edgesuite.net/atoms/e6/48/c6/81/e648c68189ebf5b716f3f127be2aa509.gif

Ben-Hur intro's "Ben" at the Oscars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1dAQN5QcZU

Reading various articles about his death (and life), it strikes me that the commercial fire accident in 1984 may have the beginning of the end for Jackson. It surely started his morphine addiction, and it strikes me that he wasn't quite as nuts before that as he has been later on, was he? I mean, when "Bad" was approaching, I was almost surprised he was even able to make music at all, as I thought everything that had happened since "Thriller" had gone to his head and made him incapable of coming up with something. This because of the long gap between the two albums (five years was an eternity in the 80s), but even more because of the increasingly weird stories from his life. But again, how many of those stories did actually happen before the fire accident?

There's an interview he did with Rolling Stone before that (and probably before Thriller even) where he's really exciting about installing manniquens throughout his house. I think the fire accident of 84 is a good touchstone, but I think the idea that MJ was 'normal' and then one day 'not normal' is a myth that holds together many other myths about the man that would not stand up under logical and unbiased scrutiny.

I recently read this interview he did with Oprah back in 1993, in which he talks more explicitly than I'd seen before about his childhood and adolescence. This exchange sort of underlines the psychological trauma he underwent -- at the age of 35, he's obviously still in fear of his father and trying to suppress any feelings of anger toward him:

Oprah: Would he...did he ever beat you?
Michael: Yes.
Oprah: And why would he beat you?
Michael: He saw me, he wanted me, I guess...I don't know if I was his golden child or whatever, but he was very strict, very hard, very stern. Just a look would scare you.
Oprah: And were you scared of him?
Michael: Very. Like, there's been times when he'd come to see me, I'd get sick, I'd start to regurgitate.
Oprah: As a child or as an adult?
Michael: Both. He's never heard me say this. I'm sorry, please don't be mad at me.
Oprah: Well I mean, I suppose everybody has to take responsibility for what they've done in life. And your father is one of those people who also have to take responsibility.
Michael: But I do love him.
Oprah: Yes. I understand this.
Michael: And I am forgiving.

he said almost the exact same thing on the very famous Martin Bashir documentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7RDCDLLIm8

Oh yeah, I never saw that.

go to about 5:30

It surely started his morphine addiction,

What are you talking about, he stayed away from booze and drugs unlike other pop stars, remember?

OK the shit about him and his dad is really sad and horrible and all his childlike behavior is disturbing if I actually consider it but I can't help but LOL at the beginning of the video when he's climbing the tree.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5130495n&tag=related;photovideo

The NME have republished Danny Baker's 1981 interview with MJ on their blog (although annoyingly, they've chopped out the rest of the article):

http://www.nme.com/blog/index.php?blog=10&title=michael_jackson_s_last_interview_2&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Why is that article titled "Michael Jackson's Last Interview" if it was done in 1981?!

theres quite a few old interviews out there now. one from creem was on the guardian website last week.

xpost: The NME claim, no doubt rightly, that it was MJ's last UK print media interview. Which doesn't quite have the same ring about it.