Battle of the 80s icons: Jacko/Prince/Madge

This will never be settled. Go to bed.

yeah, i refuse to choose. though i am more of a prince and madonna freak than a michael freak.

Went for Prince myself. Although my pick in 1989 (not to mention 1983) would be Jacko.
And Magde has made better music than any of the others in the past 15 years.

not now, Geir.

Prince vs. Madonna for me.

not now, Geir.

Well, "3121" was better than the last Madonna album. Not so sure about "Planet Earth".

lol

hahahaha

oh geir, never change

The answer is not Madonna.

i just spent 4 hours driving around listening to MJ and really feeling great admiration for dude and still voted for Prince without hesitation

Prince.....without a NANOSECOND of hesitation.

enbb hooked me on to TeeFury who're doing a tribute shirt:

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs115.snc1/4844_102568685854_61224900854_2561971_3239662_n.jpgp

MJ and Madonna might've had a few higher peaks, but for overall quality, it's gotta be Prince. Dude released around 15 albums between 1979 and 1996, and only two or three of them are not good or great. Plus there's all the stuff he did for/with other artists. I don't really think either MJ or Madonna could compare to that, even if Madonna's post-1992 career has been much more consistent than Prince's.

Neither Prince nor Madge did Don't Stop Till You Get Enough, so they can leave the room.

madonna is totally the weakest link here.

my brain wants to say prince but my heart wants to say michael.

I feel bizarre about voting for Madonna here. I don't have much of a rational explanation for this. Is it just because her fans are less annoying?

Anyway I'll probably change my mind later.

jbr otm

if we're just talking the music then I have to go with Prince, but if we consider the entire package than I have to give to Madge... with all due respect MJ isn't really a factor for me.

geir you suck i can't do this poll right now

that prince is the most talented musician/songwriter should go without saying. but what are we judging them on? mj and madonna are bigger icons and considerably more 'important'... the world's biggest pop stars are still basically doing mj/madonna impersonations.

'billie jean' would be the song you put in the 80s time vault - even if you personally thought 'when doves cry' was a better song.

in a way mj's horrible personal life has made it easier (for me at least) to disassociate the music w/ him as a person and appreciate the music as music. which is to say, mj's singles are high points of what humans can do with pop music - whereas princes' singles are high points in the subgenre called 'prince'...

mj fuck yall

When Ringo goes, you gonna do a "Best Beatle" poll?

I vote "not now", i.e. I abstain.

that prince is the most talented musician/songwriter should go without saying. but what are we judging them on? mj and madonna are bigger icons and considerably more 'important'...

Well, besides the talent, I'm simply making my judgement based on my personal relationship with the said artist. I felt kinda sad to hear MJ had died, I would feel sad if Madonna died tomorrow, but if Prince died tomorrow, I would fucking cry. To me, his image and lyrics, especially during the gender-blending, "sex is politics" era (I've mostly ignored the later Jehova's Witness inspired stuff) simply has a deeper resonance than anything MJ or Madonna have ever done.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Anyone who recycles the tabloid-spewed faux nicknames "Jacko" or "Madge" is a part of the problem.

I'm kinda partial to "her Madgesty," but y'know, fuck'em all.

Prince is still better than the other two (by light years), but even he hasn't come up with anything truly memorable in over a decade.

Madonna has though....

sweetheart, don't ever doubt this
I'm not talking to any special ILXor poster
I'm just saying

I like this shit, sweetheart

Madonna has though....

Touche!

gotta be The Boss for me...

saying "Madge" for "Madonna" is so gross, is this a thing?

Didn't Madonna start the whole "call me Madge" thing herself?

oh

ah wait, she didn't start it, actually hated it, then didn't mind
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/entertainment/madonna-hated-madge-nickname-until-she-found-out-its-meaning_1008117.html

Now to work out whether or not Prince would mind being called "Shortarse"...

Oh, but he preferred to be referred to as http://www.jubchuqun.com/Journal/pictures/prince-symbol2.jpg for a while... :)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Seems pretty apt result to me.

this thread sucks

yeah h8 these results actually

It's sad and tragic MJ died, but should he get sympathy votes for that? Apparently folks didn't think so.

yeah h8 these results actually

― zzz (deej)

otm

And all three of them have produced such amazing pieces of music anyway that there's no shame in losing this poll. It's not like people are saying MJ sucks, just that he is a tad behind the other two huge pop geniuses of the last 25 years.

(x-post)

I love me some early Madonna and I'm not a huge MJ stan but no way does Madge beat MJ. Madonna's music quality over the years = Michael's appearance over the years

Madonna's approach to music seems downright cynical compared to Michael's unabashed surrender to his inner groove

would've voted mj. but didn't.

really surprised the results turned out like this given when the poll was tastelessly started.

discussing who out of these 3 is "objectively" better is kind of pointless, anyway, given their stature and differing strengths. ranked by how much i've loved their music, madonna > mj > prince.

Madonna's approach to music seems downright cynical compared to Michael's unabashed surrender to his inner groove

I don't get the first half of the sentence at all.

MJ won this poll last year
ILXor's Best POP Star EVER!! Poll

everyone's parroting a bunch of received wisdom itt imho

kinda feel like prince is the 'rockist' choice altho theres a lot of rockist justifications for others itt as well

hey deej a) stfu already you're insufferable on any mj thread now and b) prince is the closest thing to a consensus artist this board has, you can't be mad/surprised at these results

???????? umm bullshit & fukk u -- if anything that post was defending madonna as much as mj -- the idea that she was more 'cynically' producing music or whatever is bs/irrelevant ... and if u dont see bias in the 'prince wrote all his own music' - 'prince played guitar' votes from alex in nyc types then yr being intentionally oblivious imo

& the idea that prince is head & shoulders better than the rest is so silly -- i love prince too but this should be a close contest, not a blowout

i dunno, man, if this thread is about their 80s output, i would have a hard time putting Michael's 2 albums or Madonna's 4 up against the 9 or so Prince made in that decade.

anyway i'm not saying people didn't say anything kinda R-word but u lost just by even bringing up the R-word

It's sad and tragic MJ died, but should he get sympathy votes for that? Apparently folks didn't think so.

What are you talking about? Looks like MJ got 18 sympathy votes to me... that's plenty!

everyone's parroting a bunch of received wisdom itt imho

the "received wisdom" of listening to their music?

I don't feel any "received wisdom" in the fact that Prince's music resonates with me in a way that MJ or Madonna rarely do, like I said upthread. But if we're talking on a more objective level, when you want to put three massive, contradictory pop icons into some sort of order, to me the amount of great music they've produced (regardless of who wrote what, or played what instrument) seems like as good a measuring stick as any other. And in that contest Prince wins.

Even if were talking in non-rockist terms, Prince's incredible productivity and talent as a musician/producer are part of his star image, just like MJ's childlike nature or Madonna's keen business sense are. When I think of Prince, it's impossible for me to think about him as merely as a singer or a solo artist, and not think he's also the guy who wrote "Nothing Compares 2 U", "Mia Bocca", "Love Bizarre", "777-9311", etc. I'm not trying to be all Geir here and claim that only the songwriting matters (Prince's own version of "Nothing Compares 2 U" isn't half as good as Sinead's), but to me it's not totally irrelevant either.

ok 1st off to be clear im not questioning anyone's undying love of prince ok

personally i just dont think 'good batting average' should be seen as the 'well duh' default prince-is-best response

No one on this thread has said they voted Prince because of that. And if we were talking about simply about consistent average, I'm sure these days Madonna would win on that count.

I'm not trying to be all Geir here and claim that only the songwriting matters (Prince's own version of "Nothing Compares 2 U" isn't half as good as Sinead's), but to me it's not totally irrelevant either.

I would say all of these three are (or were) excellent songwriters though. Even though Jackson's best ever song was written by Rod Temperton.

'prince wrote all his own music' - 'prince played guitar' votes from alex in nyc types then yr being intentionally oblivious imo

I don't believe I said either of those things.

im not accusing anyone specifically of being disingenuous about their own real true spiritual connections to prince -- im just observing that this is a blowout, & that the "higher batting average" argument feels like a lame one to me, because I dont really think it should be a blowout, that MJ & Madonna have pretty good claims to being the foremost 80s icons as well; i mean 'thriller' sold more copies, isnt it just as arguable that while prince may have been more consistent mj had a bigger & more significant musical impact at that point?? yet the scores in this poll OBVIOUSLY dont reflect this for SOME REASON & those are the reasons im trying to suss out here

i don't think anyone besides you has said anything about "batting average," as an argument against MJ or otherwise -- it wouldn't really make sense, since he had 2 huge and hit-loaded albums and Prince has several OK or bad 80s records among the great ones.

obviously since MJ won the "best pop star ever" poll people's reactions change when you move the goalposts of the argument -- maybe since 'icons' was in the subject line people were meant to think in terms of who was the most iconic or definitive of the 80s, but i took it as who do you like best, whose music do you enjoy the most, etc.

i mean really you could spin Elvis vs. Beatles the same way (and the results would probably be similar) but that doesn't really mean your theories about it match up with the actual reasoning going into the results.

good posts. i guess id just like to see justifications that matched those ideas instead of the ones ive been reading itt

i don't think anyone besides you has said anything about "batting average," as an argument against MJ or otherwise -- it wouldn't really make sense, since he had 2 huge and hit-loaded albums and Prince has several OK or bad 80s records among the great ones.

― Soulja Boy Pato (some dude), Monday, July 6, 2009 12:22 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

MJ and Madonna might've had a few higher peaks, but for overall quality, it's gotta be Prince.

― Tuomas, Friday, June 26, 2009 2:14 AM (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

a lot of revisionism ITT.

the boss, shit even phil collins probably sold more records than prince and was ubiquitous on MTV.

Prince.....without a NANOSECOND of hesitation.

― Alex in NYC, Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:54 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark

MJ, Prince and Madonna are synonymous with 80s pop in a way that a lot of artists that sold as much/more at the time aren't, especially guys like Bruce and Phil Collins who were established to a lesser extent in the 70s AOR era

also neither of those posts say anything about "batting average" ("overall quality" not the same thing really)

Why is it so hard to accept that the reason Prince won could be simply that he's released more great music than MJ or Madonna ever have? Sure, Thriller was bigger and more influential than anything Prince did, but Prince has released more great solo albums than MJ had solo albums (great and not so great) in total. I don't see why we should rate MJ higher just because he was bigger pop icon? We already had a poll on who's the greatest pop star, and he won that (and that was before his death). This poll didn't specifically ask who is the greatest pop icon of the three, so I think people took it to be about the music.

One thing that, for me, puts Prince above MJ and Madonna is that in his heyday was trailblazer in a way the latter two never were. He was constantly experimenting with his music, and he basically created a whole new sound and subgenre of funk/rock/dance music. This was something MJ and Madonna never managed to do; all in all they were more often following trends than setting them. Of course being a trendsetter and an experimentalist in pop music isn't necessarily all that great, unless you can combine that with a songcraft that really affects people. But Prince had that too. He did both the adventurous search for new sounds and the brilliant pop moments (sometimes in the same song, like with "Kiss"), whereas most of the time MJ and Madonna only did the latter. I guess this is anti-popist thing to say, but for me having those both qualities does puts Prince above the other two.

(several x-posts)

somedude i was just reposting alex in nyc because thats exactly he mentality im pointing to here, obv that had nothing to do w/ batting average but tuomas is clarifying for you that this is exactly what he means above

reposting AiNYC to represent the mentality of other people is shaky ground, dude

i dunno these results to me suggest that lots of ppl probably agree.

if its really a 'toss up' then u have closer results right??

and Tuomas is pretty much expressing my opinion, too. it could be said (I'm not necessarily saying it, but I think it's fair to say) that MJ made roughly 7-8 classic essential songs from '80 to '89, while Prince made roughly 7-8 classic essential albums from '80 to '89. that's not just batting average, that's sheer quantity crushing quibbles about quality.

who said it's a "toss up"? this is like the "batting average" thing, you introducing terms out of thin air and acting as if those were the grounds of the conversation.

i mean generally you use quotation marks if someone actually said something, even if they're scarequotes

i change my vote to zztop btw

also the reason I brought up Elvis/Beatles is because I think of them in the same way: Elvis pretty much raised the stakes for how big a rock'n'roll artist could be, and the Beatles benefitted from that but took it to another level. and even though Prince had hits before Thriller, I think MJ really raised the stakes for pop stardom in a way that Purple Rain wouldn't have been the phenomenon it was w/o Michael's precedent, and Prince in a way was a post-MJ pop star, so it's hard to compare them one-on-one.

despite later financial woes and tabloid troubles, MJ always struck me as having a keen business sense and being very adept at manipulating the media. Are Prince and Madonna in the same league by those measures? Is there anything in their history as awesome as Jackson's swooping up of the Beatles back catalog?

Madonna is/was a master at manipulating and capitalizing on media attention, perhaps the best. Prince mostly shunned or played coy with the media, but in a shrewd way that added to his mystique. MJ had a huge publicity machine behind him and no doubt made a lot of very smart moves to get him to where he was, but I dunno, I feel like he lost control of the tabloid situation and frequently responded to it poorly even as early as the Bad era.

Just to make it clear, I've enjoyed MJ and Madonna immensely in my life too. Some of my fondest memories involve dancing to their music. But I've never really had those "I can't believe he did that!" or "I can't believe he said that!" moments with them that I've had with Prince. To me MJ and Madonna are safe music, the sort of stuff I can play in a DJ set and I know it will fill the dancefloor and people love it. And I love it too, don't get me wrong. But Prince's music has opened me up, made me cry, put new and unexpected things (both emotional and cerebral) in my head, so I have to value it higher.

(several x-posts again)

im quoting myself here al!! i think it is a toss up & i disagree with the notion that prince is a automatic winner here -- thats the context!!

I mean obviously Prince and MJ have lead very different lives and had different public images, but Prince's worst PR moves were stuff like the name change and "slave" etc. IMO even something minor like the way MJ acquired and dealt with the Beatles catalog is way more unlikeable and slimier than that.

xpost

To me MJ and Madonna are safe music, the sort of stuff I can play in a DJ set and I know it will fill the dancefloor and people love it

their biggest hits, sure, and the same goes for prince, but mj and madonna both had tons of dark, forbidding non-crowdpleasing material - that's a really reductive way to look at them, the experimenter vs the populists

despite later financial woes and tabloid troubles, MJ always struck me as having a keen business sense and being very adept at manipulating the media. Are Prince and Madonna in the same league by those measures?

if those measures mean anything at all, which they don't, MJ probably comes last

TS: Prince or Bowie?

To me MJ and Madonna are safe music, the sort of stuff I can play in a DJ set and I know it will fill the dancefloor and people love it

prince is totally like this too.

I think MJ really raised the stakes for pop stardom in a way that Purple Rain wouldn't have been the phenomenon it was w/o Michael's precedent, and Prince in a way was a post-MJ pop star, so it's hard to compare them one-on-one.

This is very true. Whether it's a coincidence or not, in the wake of Thriller Prince released the one album of his that was most attuned to 80s pop sensibilities, i.e. Purple Rain. I can't imagine him becoming as big as he did with any of the albums that preceded or followed Purple Rain. It's hard to say whether Prince was always more of a cult artist who just happened to hit the mainstream at the right moment, and was simply unable to repeat that success, or whether he deliberately turned away from becoming an even bigger star by continuing to release the more experimental stuff alongside the poppier tunes.

"Prince's worst PR moves were stuff like the name change and "slave" etc"
I didn't really understand that this was a protest against his record company until much later (and when I did, it seemed like less of a rockstar indulgence than how it was spun) --wouldn't Jackson have been more successful at communicating this?

Also, Prince and Madonna don't seem as genuinely weird as Jackson. The most the tabloids can nail them on is fake accents and unusual prowess at basketball.

I approve these results

Whether it's a coincidence or not, in the wake of Thriller Prince released the one album of his that was most attuned to 80s pop sensibilities, i.e. Purple Rain. I can't imagine him becoming as big as he did with any of the albums that preceded or followed Purple Rain. It's hard to say whether Prince was always more of a cult artist who just happened to hit the mainstream at the right moment, and was simply unable to repeat that success, or whether he deliberately turned away from becoming an even bigger star by continuing to release the more experimental stuff alongside the poppier tunes.

re: "Prince never replicated the success of Purple Rain, he sold more copies of Diamonds and Pearls than he sold copies of Purple Rain according to these figures:

http://prince.org/msg/7/274835

that link saying Purple Rain is 13x platinum but only sold 2 million should be your first hint that there's a typo or something in there

ah I see, those numbers are units sold since 1991

ha okay I missed the "units sold since 1991" column header

Dan, there must be something with those figures. I've read four Prince biographies and they all said Purple Rain is by far his best-selling album, even if Diamonds & Pearls comes next.

(xxx-post)

Ah, okay, that was solved allready.

a simple glance at RIAA.com will answer the question, although, yes D&P is his best-selling POST-Purple Rain.

Regarding the commercial bit, I can see where people are coming from. Madonna and Michael Jackson were definitely the two biggest stars of the 80s from a purely commercial viewpoint. Prince was also huge commercially, but I guess people like George Michael, Phil Collins and, for a while, even Boy George may have been on level with Prince if you only take commercial popularity into consideration. If you want to add "rock" stars you may also want to add Bono/U2 and Bruce Springsteen.

And speaking of Phil Collins and Bruce Springsteen coming from the 70s, Michael Jackson did so too, and strictly speaking even Prince did to some extent.

i guess i could see the rationale for prince over michael...but madonna over michael seems just weird and wrong

Why? I mean, I love "Thriller", "Off The Wall" and "Bad" and all that, but I would say Madonna has made better music, at least from the late 90s onwards, than Michael has. Not to say I'd pick her over him, but she has had a lot of her moments too. Oh, and, "Like a Prayer" is possibly the best album by any of these three.

Why? I mean, I love "Thriller", "Off The Wall" and "Bad" and all that, but I would say Madonna has made better music, at least from the late 90s onwards, than Michael has. Not to say I'd pick her over him, but she has had a lot of her moments too. Oh, and, "Like a Prayer" is possibly the best album by any of these three.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, July 6, 2009 8:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

doesnt 'battle of the 80s icons' imply yr talking about their 80s work??

lol replying to geir

snt 'battle of the 80s icons' imply yr talking about their 80s work??

I wouldn't neccessarily say so. Because they are still around. (Well, Michael was, until recently)