amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

http://blog.amandapalmer.net/post/227061643/dear-robert-smith-an-open-letter

I've done this a few times myself and it always spins the ol' head around.
Generally quite nicely put.

Will have to give that a closer reread but that beyond rules.

But Dan's going to hate what she's going nuts for in the final photo.

hahahahahahaha I did get to the end and go "OH COME THE FUCK ON"

but yeah, that pretty much exactly encapsulates why I still listen to The Cure (and why, in general, I think making fun of anyone for liking a "past-their-prime" band is the hallmark of an irredeemable dick)

Interesting.

Getting backstage at The Cure show at the Greek in Berkeley in '87 (I think) was the highlight of my life at the time.

hahahahahahaha I did get to the end and go "OH COME THE FUCK ON"

Seriously LOLing for real here.

"Amanda Palmer performs the popular hits of Radiohead on her magical ukelele" EP out tomorrow:

http://music.amandapalmer.net/album/amanda-palmer-performs-the-popular-hits-of-radiohead-on-her-magical-ukulele

fuck that

it seems like the only thing that poor instrument is used for anymore is for shitty covers

extra 'for' in that last one

fake plastic covers

I've spent quality time with Amanda. Never seen the Cure though. I would like to.

Always hated this woman, her music, her shitty graphic design & her terrible personal brand.

Jeez.

Anyway...

I never ever had this close a connection to any rock star, father figure, or (day I see it) hero type as so many people have done. To the extent that I wanted to follow them or be them (beyond the thought that I'd like that job yeah, sure)...

Even to the extent that I don't even have a default understanding of the mindset beyond appreciating how someone else might feel in the situation.

Anyway, nice letter, it's good to be happy.

my extreme distate for dresden dolls, that letter, her wordiness, etc, put me off listening to 'who killed amanda palmer' until now but I really like it, it's a good record.

She may not get a lot of ILM love, but getting crowdfunded to the tune of $1m is still something worthy of note, I would say.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amandapalmer/amanda-palmer-the-new-record-art-book-and-tour/posts/232020

also recently filled in for erykah badu as bathtub fodder

25,000 people pledged an average of $50... how

25,000 people pledged an average of $50... how

I was sitting next to the writer Neil Gaiman in a pizzeria today, and he was with this lady with tattooed eyebrows and a bunch of Bard kids who appeared to be shlepping them around.

Tonight I learned that she's Amanda Palmer, and they're married. Also that Gaiman is some kind of Upper Poobah Lightning Level Scientologist (son of former U.K. Scientology boss and Vitamin mogul David Gaiman), and that many suspect the $1 million was just poured in through Sea.Org (fancy Scientology people) as part of a pretty sneaky publicity stunt....

and now I guess I should be drawing the blinds or changing my display name or something

Also that Gaiman is some kind of Upper Poobah Lightning Level Scientologist

this is not true, although his family are still. (he was actually listed as supressive for a long time iirc). and anyone who needs to make up conspiracy theories abt Palmer's fanbase and social media aptitude has prob not read anything about her, or spoken to anyone who likes her, in the last five years.

What's a suppressive?

WTF Church of Scientology is in my iPhone! Just resumed scrabble game and "Hard" robot played ENGRAM(!)

^true

Wait hold on

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/rockers-playing-for-beer-fair-play/?hp

um

isn't that the entire point of funding your enterprise via Kickstarter, so that you can raise enough money for the things you want

on the flip side, this appears to be a "hey fan musicians, I invite you to play with me for a night on stage" thing and, as such, should be looked upon as a giveaway for amateur musicians rather than a solicitation for professionals

hahah goddamn musicians union folks are weird. DJP otm.

oh don't get me wrong, if she was doing this to drum up her core band she would deserve every bit of invective and more

What's the distinction your drawing there, though? "one gig vs a tour" or "horns & strings vs guitar/drums" or "a few songs vs the whole show"?

*you're

If she's doing a "let me bring out enthusiastic fans at each show to do a song or two" thing, then who cares

If she's doing a "let me fill out my band for the majority of my set with people I don't have to actually pay" thing, she should fuck off

i had never paid any attention to this person until this musician thing, which is shitty. but even shitter, she apparently was dating (pre-gaiman) someone who was a recovered drug addict and relapsed, and she faked a suicide attempt to show him how hurt she was by it, and recorded his reaction to finding her and thinking she had killed herself, and used it on an album. he later committed suicide. how is this person real?! that is stomach turning.

holy shit, is that for real

http://youtu.be/h57XWrFNGs8

5:10

this woman, holy shit

I hated this woman anyway for being a total shit to my friends when they were doing Weill cabaret, this is next level

ennh, she was 18 and the "gf fakes a suicide" -> "he commits suicide" connection doesn't ring true for me. It is so fucked up that she'd put that recording on an album, though, oh my god.

and christ, pay your musicians. Amateur vs. professional who the fuck cares. More like "I am blessed with a worshipful fanbase now let me exploit you for cheap labour"

haha Owen I think we're pretty much on the same page here with minor deviations

like... always?

he said here.

ennh, she was 18 and the "gf fakes a suicide" -> "he commits suicide" connection doesn't ring true for me. It is so fucked up that she'd put that recording on an album, though, oh my god

yeah i wasn't making the connection that he committed suicide because of her, it was more of an aside. but faking suicide is horribly abusive behavior, and using the recording on an album implies she has no remorse about it.

If she's doing a "let me bring out enthusiastic fans at each show to do a song or two" thing, then who cares

If she's doing a "let me fill out my band for the majority of my set with people I don't have to actually pay" thing, she should fuck off

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 2:18 PM (49 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is OTM. I think if one of my favourite bands put out a call for people to show up and play either a track they already know or jam out some psych a la Suzuki's Network, I'd jump at it and not expect payment. However, if it was "please learn my entire set, be present at a rehearsal, play for the entire show or at least when and where I expect you to" then I would find that a very different proposition indeed.

The string/horn sections she pulled together for the immediate post-Kickstarter mini-tour thing were all fans who opted in. They were asked to learn two songs I think, and turn up in time to soundcheck - and they looked like the happiest damn fans on earth onstage (as well as actually being really good).

i had never paid any attention to this person until this musician thing, which is shitty. but even shitter, she apparently was dating (pre-gaiman) someone who was a recovered drug addict and relapsed, and she faked a suicide attempt to show him how hurt she was by it, and recorded his reaction to finding her and thinking she had killed herself, and used it on an album. he later committed suicide. how is this person real?! that is stomach turning.

She's also ableist. I think she's an asshole.

You guys don't understand, she's an artist. You can't be an artist and an asshole at the same time, they're like matter / anti-matter.

(If I listen carefully, I can probably hear DJP's reaction to that from across the Atlantic)

I think a lot of the greatest artists have been complete and total assholes, and she's certainly living up to that. But women get given a harder time for ~not being nice~ and the level of assholehood required to be a ~great~ artist, so I try to cut female rock stars some slack on that count, i.e. The Courtney Love Clause.

The problem is, I've never heard any work of Amanda Palmer's that actually inspired me or blew me away in the way that I require ~great art~ to do. Which may well be my failure to appreciate it. So it's complicated.

Oy oy oy, that Evelyn Evelyn thing. I would have no problem if it was a Victoriana/Steampunk concept album about conjoined twins, really, but... positioning them in the contemporary world? Pretending that you rescued them? Giving *quite* such a distressing backstory to the record? DRESSING as them?

Yeah, that thing Nicole posted, that was the thing that really just crystalised a lot of the floating discomfort I'd been experiencing about her and her schtick. But, like I said, it's complicated.

but faking suicide is horribly abusive behavior, and using the recording on an album implies she has no remorse about it.

I've not knowingly heard an amanda palmer record but she reminds me so so so strongly of girls i used to know -- there can be this sense that making art around something shitty that you did is a way of working through it, the experience and your own behaviour? I mean, to me it is a terrible thing to have used that recording on an album that you release and get money for, but I can sense the edges of the logic that leads to it. Also i do not think her behaviour can be held responsible for his later suicide.

Like WCC says, it's complicated - because there've been these girls I knew who would have been so happy to grow up into Amanda Palmer, the very phenomenon of her existence is dear to me -- even when she does stuff like the Evelyn Evelyn project, which was frankly repulsive.

I think I'm probably misreading you, WCC - your first paragraph seems to suggest that there's a minimum level of assholehood required to be a great artists? But your second suggests that if she was a great artist, she'd get a reduction in effective assholehood?

in short, Great artists tend to be assholes, but assholes do not tend to be great artists.

I try to see her side of this - I have a friend who crowds the stage with on-the-spot audience volunteers to clap on this one song & he loves it & so do they & it's often as much of the audience as can fit on the stage; that's not my style, but if people are into it, who does it hurt - but paying musicians who play with me is extremely important to me and to the survival of the craft as craft. I know there's people who wanna flex some "in the digital age the craft belongs to everyone and is no longer a craft it's ~a way of life~" or something but really that is nonsense - specifying that you want musicians who can really play means you want people who've sacrificed to learn their craft to now sacrifice for the betterment of yours. Having said all that, confidential to my singer buds, the check's in the mail lol

i'm definitely not saying that her behavior was responsible for his suicide! and i don't know the timing of when she used the recording of him in her music, but if it was after his death and he didn't consent to it being used, that's just completely callous and gross.

also who fakes a suicide and leaves a recording device on!!?? like "lol PUNK'D! gotcha!!"

I am obviously not expressing myself well.

I think that being a truly great artist requires in some senses a certain amount of sheer bloody-mindedness (for lack of a better term) that can read like being-an-asshole. And women get criticised a lot harder for sheer-bloody-mindedness in a way that men are not quite so penalised, because that sheer-bloody-mindedness violates the ~always be nice~ directive that women are supposed to live under.

It's not that ~great artists~ get a "get out of being an arsehole free" (though lord knows that card gets handed to male artists like e.g. John Lennon an awful lot.) I think it's more that halo effect whereby if you believe someone to be a genius, you are more likely to call that sheer-bloody-mindedness an "artistic temperament" instead of just "being an asshole."

If I believed more in Amanda Palmer's genius (which I don't, given the art of hers that I've heard) I would be willing to wade into the argument more. But at the moment, I'm kind of more with Cis. I'm actually glad that she exists, and that there is a space for her, and obviously she means an awful lot to many people.

But there are many, many artists who are seriously distasteful human beings (hello Anton Newcombe?) and yet they get judged on their art and the quality thereof, not on the things they've put their partners through in the name of art or something.

There's an unfortunate feedback loop here too; my objections to Amanda Palmer began when she crashed the stage at a cabaret show friends/castmates of mine were doing in support of our production of "The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny" and literally took over the stage from them, apparently to "sing the songs correctly" (quote may be misremembered), then ramped almost immediately up to 11 when I saw the Evelyn Evelyn stuff. Then I heard the music and didn't connect to it, but by that point it would have had to have been the most amazing music ever to surmount the barrier of ill will I'd already constructed towards her.

Her being an asshole probably wouldn't matter as much if her music was any good, but for me it's mediocre at best.

WCC otm, with a Christmas bonus for "the Courtney Love Clause".

jjj did play one Dresden Dolls song for me that I really liked but I have no idea what it was and no real desire to track it down

xp Is she "ableist" or just tactless, using a conceit in an abstract arty way without connecting it to real people in that situation? I'm wary of labelling someone a bigot based on one fairly strange situation. But I do think that when you're that visible on Twitter you get a lot of shit and probably get too defensive when it comes to valid criticism because you're used to fending off assholes. Personally I like her, I like her songwriting and I like the way she wrestles with her own exhibitionism but I don't give her a free pass.

Well the first I heard of her was back in Dresden Doll days, when she went to war with their label over them insisting that she lose some weight and reshoot a video because she had a (tiny) visible belly in one scene, and she basically mobilised her entire fanbase in this really inspiring and empowering (bleurgh hate that word) wave of body acceptance until they backed down, and shooting down the unrealistic expectations of womens' appearances in the music biz which just made me think YOU GO GIRL.

So I was predisposed to think that her intentions were in the right place, right up until the EvelynEvelyn thing - and it wasn't even doing the thing in the first place (which was a bit ick) but her reaction towards the criticisms, and basically using twitter to abuse the people with disabilities who had brought up the issue in the first place (who were actually fans!) which was just... um, you've changed.

Like, in the former case, the whole "Fuck you, this is my art" was totally and completely the sheer-bloody-minded right thing to do. And in the latter case, "Fuck you, this is my art" was, um, rong rong rong.

Like I said, it's complicated.

At the end of the day I see the creative act as being somewhat unassailable. That is: anybody who can write fifteen fantastic songs has pretty much assumed a eternally defensible position. Even situations where I've personally been specifically and unquestionably "fucked over" by a fellow musician, I have a persistently sympathetic attitude toward the person who at the end of the day has to pull inspiration out of thin air.

That said, you've got to write those fifteen fantastic songs to get that magic ticket, you know?

Hmm, I'm not really sure where I was going with that last post, I'm just gonna stop now. I'm trying to respond to "why do I accept asshole behaviour from a Courtney Love and not an Amanda Palmer" but I don't really know. I'd definitely be calling out Elvis Costello if he was pulling this shit

Because Courtney Love has written Pretty On The Inside, and Live Through This and Celebrity Skin and Amanda Palmer and Elvis Costello have not, is generally my response to those kinds of things.

But these things are relative, and subjective.

Elvis Costello had written fifteen fantastic songs by the time he'd written his first dozen songs, is my view. But I am more willing than a lot of you to separate out "is a great artist" and "is an asshole".

I know sometimes we don't agree on things WCC, but sometimes I really like you. And tossing EC in the same bucket as Amanda Palmer brought a smile to my face. You've been otm itt.

I've never heard anything Costello has written that has ever touched me in the same way that Love has. Love and her music and lyrics have explained some of the darker parts of me to myself, in ways I would never have understood had she not written those songs. I think that someone who has had that kind of personal effect on you, you become willing to put up with a lot of other negative crap, in the same way that if you have a friend who constantly winds you up e.g. by being late to everything, but has been there for you when other people haven't - you are willing to excuse the annoying stuff to get the good stuff.

I am certainly willing to accept that there are people, many people whose opinions I respect, for whom Palmer has had that kind of "explain your darkest bits to yourself" effect on.

There's also the thing where an artist you like does something horrible and actually acknowledges that it was horrible, such as the whole situation with Lol Tolhurst in The Cure and how abused he was by everyone as he was drowning in alcohol; everyone involved admitted what happened and everyone involved to my knowledge (I have at least read things from both Robert and Roger) said it was a really fucked up thing for them to do and they weren't proud of it. That at least shows some amount of self-realization and empathy for others; the subsequent reconciliation and Lol's performance with The Cure at the Sydney gig gives me a good amount of hope that they've worked through their issues and come out the other side.

Courtney Love did much the same type of "sorry for these instances where I was an asshole" thing in her most recent Behind the Music, which also made me like her more.

If Amanda Palmer has ever said "sorry for being an asshole", I've never seen it.

I don't know that Amanda Palmer has been around to get a Behind The Music, or even have her "sorry I was an asshole" moment. I think of her as really young?

she's 36!

not to cast judgment on what is young or old.

I guess what that means then, is that I am ~really~ old ha ha ha.

I've never heard anything Costello has written that has ever touched me in the same way that Love has. Love and her music and lyrics have explained some of the darker parts of me to myself, in ways I would never have understood had she not written those songs.

No, I totally agree - with Love and Costello switched. And that's fine - relative and subjective. I just don't need to like my favourite artists, generally.

(Okay okay, if I believed that Elvis's big fuck-up was heartfelt rather than random self-destruction, that would probably make a difference)

But then I guess there are artists who do intentionally blur the personal and the art - like, I appreciate what WCC and c sharp major are saying about Amanda Palmer being a living "It gets better", but the problem is that the entanglement persists, so it's "It gets better, and you win, and then you never have to worry about the effect on anyone of anything you say or do again, because you have WON".

Being in Boston, I feel like I've been heating about Amanda Palmer since college

or hearing, even

Just realised I was at the Corner Hotel gig in the YouTube clip above - don't remember anyone gasping in horror at the time.

Being in Boston, I feel like I've been heating about Amanda Palmer since college

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:00 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah no kidding, even i have seen the dresden dolls and they're about as far away from "things i might like" as humanly possible

I think that being a truly great artist requires in some senses a certain amount of sheer bloody-mindedness (for lack of a better term) that can read like being-an-asshole. And women get criticised a lot harder for sheer-bloody-mindedness in a way that men are not quite so penalised, because that sheer-bloody-mindedness violates the ~always be nice~ directive that women are supposed to live under.

Are you saying that a male musician who did these same things would be judged differently? That doesn't ring true to me, although I admittedly can't think of examples on the spot right now.

Yeah, there might be a reason for that.

I note she's been vaguely glib about all this on Twitter so far aside from the one RT. This appears to be as close as self-consciousness as she'll allow herself:

https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/246281867626704897

I think she's allowing herself a great deal of self-consciousness about the roles of band and audience, maker and consumer.

http://amandapalmer.tumblr.com/post/31464255930/poetic-placement-of-the-day-the-new-york-times

poetic placement of the day: the new york times article about our volunteer corps of local musicians is next to an article about david byrne’s new book “HOW MUSIC WORKS”…in which he writes about me as an example of someone who creatively crowdsources things. bam. also fun to note: when david byrne guested with the grand theft orchestra a few months ago at the music hall of williamsburg, we paid him…in beer.

not enough facepalms in the world

you begin a sentence with, "isn't it interesting..." or some variation, you already lost me

Thank You For Sending Me A Pilsner

not enough facepalms in the world

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Amanda Facepalmer

For 36 she's doing a great job of seeming 18.

AFP for short.

Goddammit it's time ILX added "like" functionality to posts!

The string/horn sections she pulled together for the immediate post-Kickstarter mini-tour thing were all fans who opted in. They were asked to learn two songs I think, and turn up in time to soundcheck - and they looked like the happiest damn fans on earth onstage (as well as actually being really good).

― Background Zombie (CharlieNo4), Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:26 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

People who are whining about this are the assholes imo.

Not to say she's not an asshole, generally, I just don't think she's the asshole here.

Amanda Facepalmer OMG OMG OMG

"It gets better, and you win, and then you never have to worry about the effect on anyone of anything you say or do again, because you have WON"

yeah, this might be it? I feel like perhaps when Ms Palmer was young and fucked up - and I am suspicious of anyone who didn't feel a bit fucked up at that age - she developed such an army of other young, fucked-up people who would defend anything she did that she never really had to grow past this and develop some sort of self-awareness or "maybe I'd better not say this as it will sound horrible and potentially marginalise other people" instead of going "ah but I am a tortured artiste and very clever, see my legions of fans"

(I really go back and forth on her - I have never heard a full album past the Dresden Dolls' first, which had like 1.6 good songs, but hell if Girl Anachronism wasn't a perfect encapsulation of that time of being 18 and fucked-up and almost revelling in the self-pity and transgression of it, all while also knowing people revelling even more openly in it and swinging between "that girl is really annoying!" and "I hope things get better for that girl, she doesn't deserve to be in that place". Also I like to get drunk and watch the DDs' live cover of "Eisbär" on repeat, sometimes.)

Another thing to be grateful to Amanda Palmer for: accelerating Neil Gaiman's shark-jump moments to dispel any doubt in anyone still left thinking he might yet do something else interesting

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

hurting is a musician btw

As is DJP and Owen P and...

The thing that put me off Amanda Palmer completely was her goddamn enabling of Wayne Coyne to continue being an asshole. Like after he leaked that video with Erykah Badu and her sister without their permission and Erykah (completely justifiably) had the video pulled, Amanda jumped right in to redo Erykah (and her sister's) part. I mean, of course its 100% Palmer's prerogative to be willing to go naked in the video, but I just was put off by the whole way Coyne just erased Badu from the track like a giant "fuck you" to her for daring to be pissed off about the way he treated her. And I felt like Palmer really enabled that by jumping in so willingly.

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

i know, but his opinion as a musician is valid too, no need for analogies.

xp

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

Here and onwards. And onwards.

I just get a 404 from that.

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

Erykah did a duet with the Flaming Lips on their collab album and then they "released" a very NSFW video for it with Erykah and her sister in a tub, getting liquid stuff splattered all over them (I use "them" because its always only one of them in the shots, afaik her sister did the actual nude shots). Anyway, turned out Coyne leaked it without her permission and a shitstorm blew up on Twitter.

or just see that link, lol

Wayne Coyne is clearly Amanda Palmer's guru in the way of "artists can't be assholes, silly".

(many xps) Well, I think it's OK as a one-off or even a short-tour-off if an artist recognises that they have fans with musical talents who have probably already learnt their songs, and if those fans want to volunteer to come onstage with little extra practising required and be paid nothing except being near their favourite band, or having people see them, or maybe a t-shirt and a CD from the merch desk and a bottle of beer from the rider (NB I have not seen this last suggested perk mentioned so I guess even that wasn't offered)

but for one thing the key words there are "want to volunteer", and also for an entire major tour it's a little suspect to ask people to work in their spare time for free, yes; especially when said fans have just given you eleven bazillion dollars on a Kickstarter project, one which significantly exceeded its funding goal and therefore you might think had some spare funds lying around

This any better?

Erykah Badu: C /D, S&D

Erykah did a duet with the Flaming Lips on their collab album and then they "released" a very NSFW video for it with Erykah and her sister in a tub, getting liquid stuff splattered all over them (I use "them" because its always only one of them in the shots, afaik her sister did the actual nude shots). Anyway, turned out Coyne leaked it without her permission and a shitstorm blew up on Twitter.

Just to add to this, a couple weeks back, The Flaming Lips released a new version of the video with Palmer in it instead of Badu.

Yeah, thats what I mentioned about about Palmer enabling Coyne to be an asshole.

People who are whining about this are the assholes imo.

I don't really have a clear opinion about the volunteer musicians issue tbh, especially if people are just playing on two songs, not an entire set, and considering that people are freely choosing to do this. Playing gigs for free pretty much seems to be a part of life for amateur musicians. The experience and networking opportunities may well turn out to be useful for players. I don't think it's necessarily a really great thing to do but I'm not sure whether it's an injustice or something that I could imagine protesting.

many xps I don't know about the legal field but certainly there are many corporations or organizations that offer unpaid internships, many of which strike me as more exploitative than this situation.

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

while i get what you are saying, this is actually not the greatest example, because lawyers are actually required by the aba to do pro bono work :)

i happen to think she is an entitled asshole of he worst kind though so i'm not disagreeing with you, and don't think that people that disagree are whining.

(xpPS I have no musical talent, though that doesn't stop me trying, and the one time I appeared onstage my payment was a bottle of beer from the rider which I immediately gave to a friend as I don't drink beer, and I still felt like a GOD for like 0.2 seconds until the soundguy decided that the venue-provided equipment I was plugged into was faulty and therefore my channel was getting killed, fuck off)

(sorry, this is not the spacecadet's decade-old livejournal thread, is it?)

i can see both sides (given that palmer has a very established fandom) but the kickstarter thing casts this in a COMPLETELY different light. you can't raise $1.2 mil and cry poor about $35K.

just going to put this here

xxp "There are worse things" is not a defense.

The wholly objectionable thing with Palmer asking her fans to perform with her is the whole "you have to be good, a year of lessons in fifth grade don't count; send us an artistic resume" part.

sund4r, I don't think you're really disagreeing with either me or DJP there. Certainly not me, anyway.

there are many corporations or organizations that offer unpaid internships, many of which strike me as more exploitative than this situation.

This is true, but I am actively against such practises. I don't think "there are worse things" is a good argument.

^^^ otm

A big portion of my ire goes towards the people that are leaping at this "opportunity" in the same way I get irked by architects that trip over themselves to get unpaid "internships" at hip firms just for the resume entry and only encouraging the idea that what we do isn't worth being paid for.

I could play "who's the asshole" all day. There is a tacit arrangement within the independent community of musicians which boils down to "let's not pull each others' dicks". Union aside, contracts aside, it's simply this: be sweet to your fellow musicians. Pay them when they work for you. Represent their interests cleanly and politely. It might sound cloudy-eyed and utopian but like wages are low so it's important to treat people right. I mean, even now I'm weighing my words here, Amanda is not a friend but she works with my friends, etc., so I'm trying to keep phrases like "human garbage" to myself.

This Amanda Palmer incident reminds me so clearly of when indie musicians collide with the world of film, where movie producers who Actually Want To See You Die will start using terms like "foot in the door" or "an opportunity" as the basis of exploitation.

The dissonance between these two worlds is totally fine! and OK! and it's not like musicians don't have the balls to negotiate a contract! But it's incredibly, incredibly insulting and makes me, well, livid, that a person who has publicly raised $1.2 million would say that she can't afford $35K of it to employ six musicians as her backing band.

On one hand, yeah, you can be like "the fans are happy, I'm happy, the musicians are happy, etc." but it's not just these exploited fans, it is also the musicians who Amanda should've hired who she didn't hire. Lost jobs. The fact, too, that the disparity between her income (1.2m) and required expense (35K) is so enormous. Call me an asshole for whining but this woman is in the wrong.

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:01 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I actually just minutes ago agreed to draft some contract language free for an art-related thingy, just because it would be an interesting side project for me and it's a cool organization.

I agree that the "you have to come to a rehearsal and have a resume" part is slightly pushing things (although it doesn't seem to require that you actually be a professional musician), but it's a couple of tunes in one show and no one has to do it at all. And there's no false promise of opportunity or career advancement here (unlike with exploitive internships) -- it's really just an "I am doing this because I think it would be fun" thing for the musicians. I find it hard to believe that people are seeing this as an opportunity.

The fact, too, that the disparity between her income (1.2m) and required expense (35K) is so enormous. Call me an asshole for whining but this woman is in the wrong.

This is so the key thing here, which separates this from a lot of other situations, and can't be stressed enough wrt Palmer.

If she were to be running things like a "who wants to jam on a couple songs?" that'd be one thing. But she's gone on record being like "ha ha, I can't afford a band! $35K? For the entire tour?" and this why she sucks. If somebody gave me or DJP or anybody I know $1.2 million I'd hire every musician I know and we'd tour forever

isn't "doesn't get paid for their work" kind of the definition of "amateur"? like, if you got paid, you wouldn't be amateur, you'd be professional

"Amateur" in the musical sense doesn't mean you don't get paid, it means that less than 50% of your income is derived from playing music

internships -- not just corporate but non-profits too! -- definitely have exploitation written into them. the lever of control is the promise that the internship isn't a dead end. it's either the bottom rung of a ladder that will go up in tim, or a resume builder.

i don't think playing in AP's pickup orchestra even has that going for it. afaict she just wants people to work for her for nothing.

that said, it's a free country. if she can find enough people that meet her exacting criteria willing to do it for the rewarding fan experience alone, happy to see her raise $1mUSD, well, i can't really second guess that.

that's if! is there any indication that this will or has worked out? (not digging into the weeds here, sorry)

many xps, lots of ppl have made those points i see

whoops, typo. poor tim.

I don't really understand the logic of comparing those numbers. I think the relevant question would be what she makes per gig, and what's left over after paying her band, touring expenses, etc.

oh come on

"Amateur" in the musical sense doesn't mean you don't get paid, it means that less than 50% of your income is derived from playing music

― would smash pumpkins (Ówen P.), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

huh well that seems like an arbitrary and oddly authoritative definition but i'll take your word for it?

are you even serious anymore Hurting or just straight trollin'?

well whatever the numbers turn out to be an extra million head start is pretty nice.

I've never heard Palmer's music, or really read about her before now, but the general profile I'm getting here is of someone whose behavior is rather borderline-y for a 36 y.o.

hurting on the kickstarter page she literally talks about possibly banking $100K of what is raised after all expenses, which apparently didn't include these musicians.

@ n/a that's the AFM's definition

fwiw, the $1.2 million she raised on kickstarter is also not "her income"

http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/amandas-million

this claims her take-home was $100,000 (which, again, is basically her take-home from the sales of a record, so I don't understand the purpose of using it as a base for determining whether she can afford to spend money on horn players on a tour).

if she's using the kickstarter money for her tour she should have budgeted in the cost of musicians

A big portion of my ire goes towards the people that are leaping at this "opportunity" in the same way I get irked by architects that trip over themselves to get unpaid "internships" at hip firms just for the resume entry and only encouraging the idea that what we do isn't worth being paid for.

I guess it's not entirely clear to me what people think should be done about these situations. Do we want labour legislation to prohibit internships or unpaid gigs? Should we just use the Internet to publicly shame people who choose to offer these opportunities? How would we determine fair compensation for something like this? Whatever the musicians' unions demand? Clearly, Palmer is offering a market rate if people are willing to go for this deal. I'm no free marketeer but I'm actually curious how we'd decide this. What if someone has less money to start out with than Palmer does in the first place? Is it OK for them to pay musicians less?

Btw, afaict, the situation is even worse for composers than it is for performers. At US festivals, it is not uncommon that composers whose works are selected for performance have to pay a fee to have their work performed. Are composers owed a salary or stipend for their work as well?

many xposts I'm not trying to be a dick. I really respect what Owen and DJP and everyone has to say. These are just the questions that this raises for me. I'm not even saying that this isn't a douchey thing to do!

i generally think she's full of shit and the press about her is embarrassing (though unsurprising given that the bulk of her cheerleaders come from the tech press, which never saw a bubble manifestation it didn't think was the second coming of christ) but come ON, the woman has money. this is pt barnum level bullshit under the guise of 'fun'

I'm in a very different boat to Owen, being a perennial no-hoper in the music world - most of what I do I make no money from, if anything I lose money from making music - so I do have sympathy for people who are responding to this positively. If you really like Palmer's work you'd probably be made-up to get to play with your hero. But basically he is OTM - don't cry poor when everyone knows you're not, don't be all "fuck paying a band", don't get your army of fans to do REAL WORK and not pay them, have a little respect for other people, don't be a dickhead.

is there a link to the actual kickstarter thing where she went into the detail, as mentioned in Hurting's link?

So I take it none of you have ever illegally downloaded a record, since music has so much true value that is unrecognized only by exploiters like Amanda Palmer

yes jon back up at the top of the revive

umm i'm not raking in $1.2 million by claiming that what i'm doing is the future, so your analogy doesn't really hold

I guess it's not entirely clear to me what people think should be done about these situations. Do we want labour legislation to prohibit internships or unpaid gigs? Should we just use the Internet to publicly shame people who choose to offer these opportunities? How would we determine fair compensation for something like this? Whatever the musicians' unions demand? Clearly, Palmer is offering a market rate if people are willing to go for this deal. I'm no free marketeer but I'm actually curious how we'd decide this. What if someone has less money to start out with than Palmer does in the first place? Is it OK for them to pay musicians less?

These are all good questions! I don't know the answers either. I brought up the architect thing because when I was laid off and looking for work, it was really disheartening to see so many people leap all over these unpaid internships that made it more and more difficult for me to find a paying job. I understand the benefits of internships for people just coming out of school or even still in school, but I knew licensed architects over 35 that had been working paid positions for many years that took unpaid internships at a big firm because it would be "cool". I mean, I guess good on them if their lifestyle allows them to be able to do that, but it ultimately does the whole profession a disservice by not advocating that we should be paid for our work.

But thats a digression fit for a different thread, so I'll end the rant there.

yes jon back up at the top of the revive

Thanks, wasn't sure if those kickstarted pages stayed up after completion.

So I take it none of you have ever illegally downloaded a record, since music has so much true value that is unrecognized only by exploiters like Amanda Palmer

apples, meet oranges

Also a vast difference in structural make-up of those two issues (theft vs exploitation, consumer vs capitalist).

xposts to Maura & Hurting

Branca...

That's an interesting one, along with 77 drummers... I was gonna say the Network too, but I think Networkers do get paid...

Branca...

Yes, this was in my mind throughout this discussion: no one got paid to play in the premiere of Symphony 13. Was this exploitative?

xpost

So I take it none of you have ever illegally downloaded a record, since music has so much true value that is unrecognized only by exploiters like Amanda Palmer

hahaha have you ever seen me on any of the downloading discussions, I'm assuming no

Boadrum 77 was a free event

Was 77 drummers a free thing though? Don't remember. I think I'd classify that as more of an "art installation" type of one-time event, which puts it in a vastly different category from Palmer's touring, from which she will be making money at each stop.

True, true, valid point about it being free. Also the 'one-off' nature does make it very different - it's not an integral part of the structure of your tour.

Yeah, tbf, the Hallucination City premiere was free for the audience too. I'm not sure that Branca made much money from it.

I was really upset twenty minutes ago and I apologize to anybody for getting so animated. I'm thinking right now about Taylor Swift having her dopey band featured so prominently in her video and feeling real good about that.

Also 77 was an attempt to make something much vaster in scale than regular touring conditions would allow. Palmer is looking for a regular size backup band.

Isn't she looking for horns and strings, without taking those players on the road? And also giving the audience a different thrill than watching a pro touring band?

To get back to Hurting's point a little, no matter the actual economics behind her Kickstarter thing, it makes it a little hard for people to swallow this "poor me, I can't afford $35k for musicians" when she just, mere months ago, made headlines all over the internet for making $1.2 million. I think the perception of this is why there is so much virtiol from certain quarters.

If somebody gave me or DJP or anybody I know $1.2 million I'd hire every musician I know and we'd tour forever

this tour would be so fucking fly

It feels like a situation similar to when a band has musician-friends in a particular city who suit the music being played, as in: hey, come sit in with us on these songs, or sing I Shall Be Released, or if you want to watch the show that's cool too? She's just extended it to her cyber-friends, as I hope ILXors will do on the forthcoming LULU tour.

I have to say that my attitude towards the not-paying-musicians thing has definitely got harsher the more I read about her other antics. It's just building up a picture of general douchebaggery that I wouldn't necessarily have assumed from this single story.

Everybody knows those early days of gigging where it's negotiating cab fare / fuel costs. Most like "prominent bands" still have to worry about that shit, you know, thinking of other thread where Thee Oh Sees are somehow "overrated". But when the cheques start coming in and your income is no longer "one of subsistance" you've got to start taking care of those around you. Even when I'm not feeling like Green Day are my cup of tea, they pay for their crew's dental plan so they are 100% awesome in my book.

I think the lack of regulations or mechanisms in place to protect amateur musicians (i.e. non-Unionized ones) is kind of exciting and awesome. It gives musicians like Amanda an opportunity to Choose How To Act. Should I start a Kickstarter? Should I hire a band of my friends? Should I hire some dudes with chops? Should I collaborate with my fans or should I have them work for beer and hugs? What should I do with this money? Not having the Union involved and instead having it be an intangible Choose Your Own Adventure makes these choices an extension of her art practice. As such, they should be judged as art... by articles in the NYTimes, Tumblr comments, ILM threads...

xp to aero I would bring you along too but your rider requirements are kind of steep, we can do you a roomful of kittens but we cannot do a bathtub of Nivea

this is the jandek tour model. people don't get paid to play with him, do they? and he puts out live cds and doesn't even include people's names on the cd. but nobody ever called jandek an asshole.

Don't think this has been posted yet... Steve Albini weighs in.

xpost I thought they did get paid, actually?

Jandek, you asshole!
lol-ing at the idea of a Jandek kickstarter.

i have long ago given up trying to convince amateur musicians that they should be paid for their time so i honestly cant get all riled up about this. i mean why should i care if these dudes are getting screwed by amanda palmer or by a bar owner paying 4 bands with 3 drink tickets each while their friends pay a cover and buy drinks?

Wait, I'm a little late here and confused. Did Elvis Costello force some amateur musician to kill himself onstage while listening to Amanda Palmer?

i do get the loss of revenue for the potential touring musicians, obv

elvis costello made fun of ray charles' eyebrow tats once, big scandal

people acting like she is taking advantage of the peeps that actually play on these dates however are missing the point imo

even if jandek's ppl don't get paid i don't imagine it involves much more for them than turning up on the day and playing along with whatever vibe he's feeling on that particular night. (same kind of arrangement with damo suzuki's network, i guess?)

Elvis Costello crowdsourced his first few albums from his band and Nick Lowe, true story.

eyebrow tats

I've been meaning to ask. Is there a good explanation of these somewhere?

i mean on the one hand if amanda palmers utilikilt steam punk fans want to play her shitty songs with her in exchange for a beer its fine with me as long as i dont have to be anywhere near it, on the other hand creating a precedent for something like this devalues the labor of musicians the same way huffington post and all the other blog-for-free-for-exposure sites devalue my the labor of my profession. obv there are big differences in the structures of these industries and maybe youre hard line enough to say tough shit but it bugs me even outside the fact that my job is implicated, insofar as reducing the minimum salary to "free" generally means shittier work from everyone all around

Oh man Albini's "view" is the first thing today that's made me consider swinging back over to Palmer's side (but not really).

As usual its not that Albini is wrong, its more that he has to word his proclamations in the douchiest way possible and his fanboys lap up every word as if gospel.

Lol, yes. I think he is kind of right, but he's a dick.

^^ otm

Isn't he kind of like those right wingers who say that the only people who can't find jobs are idiots with no qualifications or something? There's no question the traditional business model of making music is totally different from what it once was. Doesn't make her an idiot for finding a way to make money from an enterprise no longer built to do so. And sure, Palmer could do what she does and be poor or take a day job or whatever, but coming from someone like Albini, who is not poor and whose day job is rather rarified, it's a bit rich to point fingers, isn't it? One way or another, the only way a musician makes a living is to convince people to give them money.

She wouldn't be poor if she paid her workers, though.

not that i'm defending AP, but didn't the walkmen do a similar thing where they got local horn players in every town to be their horn section? can't remember if they got paid...one of my friends played trombone with them at the lollapalooza gig, i'll have to ask him.

i think albini is pointing at someone else who is not poor and whose day job is rather rarified

It's really easy to make fun of Amanda Palmer, and I do, but he called her an idiot for ... not just making a living by recording and touring? For asking for charity? For making too much money? She can be lame, but I'm not sure what's wrong with asking for money. Because she doesn't need it? She seems pretty hardcore about hobnobbing with fans and giving them their money's worth, so I don't know exactly what she did wrong to earn Albini's ire. Not that it takes much!

I mean, she's married to Neil Gaiman, who is very rich. Does that mean she shouldn't ask for money for anything?

(Btw, Jandek does pay, according to people who have played with him.)

Yeah, but are they making those big Jandek bucks?

Jandek's musicians are paid in Corwood Industries stock iirc

They're paid in blank cassettes.

Corwood stock was a risky investment until Jandek invented the Segway

Not necessarily a bad deal - have you seen the prices some blank cassette tapes go for on ebay?

xpost, obviously

I promoted a Jandek show a few years back. the musicians got paid, but by me not by him. and yes they had to agree that their names would not be on the cd.

BOB LEFSETZ WEIGHS IN, SAYS HATERS GONNA HATE

"I've seen Amanda Palmer live. If you think the additional free players are performing at Philharmonic levels, you're sorely mistaken. It's about a one time event, a happening. Hell, isn't that what we used to love about concerts? Before they were all done by rote, performed to hard drive?

I'm not saying I would make the same choice.

And I'm not telling you to do so.

But I will say Amanda Palmer is trying.

And I will say, with trying, comes mistakes. Not that this is one of them, but that's the nature of trying new things, failing.
She's willing to do this, are you?"

see you guys you all just aren't trying hard enough

She's willing to do this, are you?

who, me? who is he talking to?

"You see Ms. Palmer is running a club, a gang, she's trying to do it new school, and everybody who believes music should not be free and CDs should rule are using her as a scapegoat."

lol isn't this the opposite of trying?

I'm not saying I would make the same choice, but one thing is clear, amanda palmer is willing to do this thing she already did

and with doing things comes mistakes, not that this is one, although I wouldn't do this

Sort of like Albini antipathy, I'm usually inclined to believe the opposite of whatever that Lefsetz dude says. So I guess Palmer is ... an idiot?

fuck mitt romney, jandek and amanda palmer could really turn this country around in no time.

I think the time has come to find out what Mitt Romney thinks of Amanda Palmer's entrepreneurial spirit.

So, the defence is this?
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/376355_10151029182077859_2100976538_n.jpg

She is basically "trying" what every other band has been doing since the invention of the Internet except she is failing at it because she is greedy

"at least she's fucking trying. what the fuck have you done?"

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xLflvamFZZg/TJLpQTnw5SI/AAAAAAAAD9U/dTE2UBvEHkc/s1600/ian.jpg

oh here's the whole thing

"Musician on musician hate. With a dose of jealousy thrown in.

In case you don't live on the Interwebs, many players are shocked that Amanda Palmer is giving them a chance to play for free. Well, not completely, there's beer and hugs and audience enjoyment too.

They believe she should pay.

Because she raised a million dollars on Kickstarter and they didn't!

Line up the most successful musicians and you've got a slew of players who absolutely despise them, because said musicians made it and they didn't. That musician performed oral sex, their daddy paid, they elbowed out a better player. God, if these people just stopped complaining and put their nose to the grindstone...

They still might not make it.

These same people, especially the non-musicians weighing in, because the Internet is all about piling on, who beg for internships in the music business.

I'm gonna make it very simple. You don't have to!

Many people would salivate at the chance to play with Ms. Palmer. Well, not many people. She's not Paul McCartney, she's certainly not Bob Dylan. But a few.

You see Ms. Palmer is running a club, a gang, she's trying to do it new school, and everybody who believes music should not be free and CDs should rule are using her as a scapegoat.

Amanda ankled her major label deal, she makes money on Twitter, she uses the new technologies to both reach people and profit and they don't like it. They could join in, but then they might fail, and they wouldn't be able to sit at home at bitch.

And these players are the same ones decrying drum machines and synthesizers and every modern innovation that cost a single musician a job. If we had these people rule, we'd truly live in an "Atlas Shrugged" world. One where there's no innovation and the masses are a step behind.

Kind of like all those people bitching Apple changed the connector. Mm... Let me see. Isn't that what killed Microsoft, the refusal to leave legacy computers in the dust? By making everything backwards-compatible, Microsoft missed out on the future.

And yes, people are beating up the iPhone 5. Claiming it's not innovative enough, kind of like BMW switching to all electric vehicles which fly, damn profitability.

But that's the public. Hating on corporations.

And hating on politicians is de rigueur.

But hating on artists?

Well, that happens too.

But when artists themselves start hating on artists you lose the plot. Artists should have solidarity. And know that the future is inevitable. You might not like it, but it's coming.

Now in retrospect, Amanda Palmer made a PR mistake. She should have seen this coming. But does that mean she shouldn't have done it?

That's when the musicians really complain. When you rest on your laurels, when you take no chances, when you give them exactly what they want.

The public doesn't know what it wants. So the greatest artists go in search of their own truth.

I've seen Amanda Palmer live. If you think the additional free players are performing at Philharmonic levels, you're sorely mistaken. It's about a one time event, a happening. Hell, isn't that what we used to love about concerts? Before they were all done by rote, performed to hard drive?

I'm not saying I would make the same choice.

And I'm not telling you to do so.

But I will say Amanda Palmer is trying.

And I will say, with trying, comes mistakes. Not that this is one of them, but that's the nature of trying new things, failing.
She's willing to do this, are you?"

lol at "big Jandek bucks"

I think Albini's point was that if she can't put on a good show and tour without needing donations -- which, a lot of the kickstarter money kind of is if it's above and beyond the "pay $5, get a cd" level or if you're getting an item worth a lot less than what you paid -- then she's not a professional to him, but an idiot. It's Albini, he's not exactly reaching for the right way to describe it and I don't think he's necessarily referring to her intellect but using "idiot" as a generic pejorative.

has anyone mentioned that there's an ilxor that (iirc) lived at Palmer's place?

i should add that every time someone uses "hater" in a piece of expository prose, my personal assessment of whatever argument they might have decreases by about 5%

AHAHAHAHAHA. What a fucking moron.

There are actually way too many idiotic things in there to go through it seriously. But that is an awful, awful defence.

It's about a one time event, a happening.

I immediately stop listening to and/or respecting the opinion of anyone who uses the term "a happening".

Oh Lefsetz now, this whole thing is like a dog whistle for the blowhards.

i don't think anyone holds it against an ilxor for once having a controversial cabaret roommate. i mentioned it on the kickstarter thread.

x-post

i mean i kinda feel bad if they are friends, but musicians making news is gonna get reactions from people here.

I immediately stop listening to and/or respecting the opinion of anyone who uses the term "a happening".

― NR’s resident heavy-metal expert (Nicole), Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:16 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Awww. I really like bandying about that term. I also call people "hepcats" sometimes. You probably hate me now.

Fancy a jazz cigarette, cat?

Palmer can clearly record and tour without asking for cash. I guess that's the issue, right? Anyway, overlooked here is that Palmer asked fans for a slightly more modest (though not nothing) $100,000 for a book, album and tour, and ended up getting over ten times that. I just read a piece recently - in Wired? - on all the problems that arise when Kickstarter campaigns raise far more than asked for. Doesn't Kickstarter have some sort of cut-off?

This is going to x-post to all hell but...

I'm really of two minds about this.

Because, as a fan, and someone who has been around fandom of the sort of obsessive fans that follow bands around on tour and actually beg for the right to sell t-shirts on tour - I think the idea of inviting fans onstage to play along with their idol is amazing, it's beautiful. Speaking as someone who, well - one of the crowning ~amazing fan moments~ of my life was the time that I got to play drums for Drugstore, pulled up out of the audience as a volunteer. And that's something I will treasure forever. So the idea of doing that with two fans, every night for a whole tour, that's fantastic, it's the kind of reward that obsessive fans will carry around with them for a lifetime. Great idea.

But the money thing... that whole thing, the comments and her reaction has been, well, bad. Because if she had turned around and said "it's not about the fucking money, it's about giving two obsessive fans the experience of a lifetime EVERY DAMN NIGHT for a whole tour!" I would have said YOU GO, GIRL. But the moment she starts whinging about $35k when she has a budget of $1.2 million, that puts her on totally the wrong foot. But it wasn't *her* that brought the money into the conversation in the first place, it sounds like a lot of butthurt session players, which, fair enough, I've been a session player, you don't have to volunteer for those jobs. But it doesn't cheapen you and your job to have someone decide to give fans the night of their life. But her poorly handled reaction changed this from "giving fans the night of their lives" to "chump change from a millionaire."

But poorly handled reactions to criticism seem to be her stock in trade. I'm hardly one to point fingers on that count, so I can certainly understand.

No, I couldn't hate you. But when aging blowhards like Lefsetz use it is the worst. xxxp

def on the same page as you, scott, just kind of weird connection that I should forget for the context of this

This is that Wired piece: http://www.wired.com/design/2012/07/st_kickstarter/

Can't you just program/ask Kickstarter to cut off at your goal?

But it doesn't cheapen you and your job to have someone decide to give fans the night of their life.

Except it absolutely does cheapen. I'm with most of your post, but I think you are 100% wrong with this line.

"it wasn't *her* that brought the money into the conversation in the first place"

Have you not seen her THIS IS THE FUTURE OF MUSIC grandstanding re: her Kickstarter campaign?

So it cheapens professional drummers when the BJM decide to let a fan play tambourine onstage for a night? Really?

― controversial cabaret roommate (Nicole),

props for this, btw, you beat me by about 25 seconds

Did I cheapen all musicians everywhere by volunteering to play drums for Drugstore, instead of asking for musicians' union pay?

So it cheapens professional drummers when the BJM decide to let a fan play tambourine onstage for a night? Really?

When you do it over the extent of your entire tour and take jobs away from working musicians, yes, it absolutely does.

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

It seems like she's doing this in addition to her regular, paid band members. If her entire band were crowdsourced, you might have an argument.

Yeah, OotS has basically ground to a halt thanks to Kickstarter. Not that it hadn't ground to a halt a few times before, but it was just getting some momentum back up.

Dunno how this works re: Kickstarter, but isn't keeping to a budget the secret to indie success, whether you are Steve Albini or Jim Jarmusch or whomever? Your total net worth or total account is not the same as your budget. If I have $100 it doesn't mean I can or should spend $100.

i've never heard of drugstore so i guess it makes sense that they would need free drummers.

i'd play drums for free with anyone. what the hell do i care?

It is still professional musicians to a job vital to the gig though (what was the line about them being the support band about?) - it seems a few lines crossed from someone on a tambourine.

Drugstore are totally a thing, in the right circles.

If I have $100 it doesn't mean I can or should spend $100.

No, but you should probably spend some of it instead of getting everyone else to work for free and keeping it all for yourself.

And Drugstore were ace back in the day.

i'm surprised this hasn't been turned into one of those image things where people substitute their own
hilarious text:
http://waxy.org/random/images/weblog/patrons_into_producers-20120607-222204.png

White Magic for Lovers war pretty good.

She's willing to do this, are you?

this is like the argument that got bill maher kicked off of ABC, but backwards (and wrong)

i'm gonna look up drugstore. i like new things. or even new old things.

i can never tell what the hell lefsetz's point is, ever.

I don't think it's comparing apples to oranges, I think it's comparing tangerines to oranges. It's scaling up a small thing to a very large thing.

I think there were ways she could have expressed it that would have made her look less like a breadhead, in terms of making it more clear that it was about special-experience-for-fans.

But I have really mixed feelings about session players, despite (or because of) having been one.

Drugstore were/are ace, but the s/t first album was my favourite.

That he's a longwinded grouch. xp

I must admit I'd love to see AP haul up an excited fan to 'jam on a tune' and then berate them because they only took one year of tambourine in 5th grade

this whole thing is kinda the epitome of the notagoodlook thing. basically. people were already huffy about the million bucks. then this. she could have asked people more discreetly if they knew any good oboe players on her tour route or whatever and set the whole thing up herself and nobody would have been the wiser.

That he's a longwinded grouch. xp

― controversial cabaret roommate (Nicole), Thursday, September 13, 2012 2:34 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah well sure

he flips back and forth between internet futurist social blah blah shit and then whining about how it all used to be about hustle and grit and heart back in the old days before... well, what? before technology? guy makes no damn sense.

Wasn't Damo Suzuki's tour thing that he'd just show up and basically jam with a band at each tour date? I think they got paid, though.

If it was "pull a volunteer from the audience and have them play on a song" it's a lot different from "learn a part, come here around soundcheck, make sure it's cool." If they don't have anyone volunteer at a tour date, are they doing the songs without those parts? I guess that's the key, if the band can't play without these essential parts, then they're basically leaning on scab musicians to do it for free.

I mean, I don't really begrudge her or give a shit, but I certainly get why people are calling this out.

scott crazy otm as usual

He's like this weird combination of an aging hippie and an earnest freshman with his first internet connection.

(xpost re Lefsetz)

and she seems creative so she just should have been more creative. she could have picked two lucky fan/musicans to travel the country in an amanda palmer-mobile and paid them and the fans could have set up a youtube channel charting their magical journey and all her fans would of thought it was the coolest thing in the world. you gotta think outside the box when it comes to the future of music.

god remember when that type of dude used to be thick on the ground? mondo 2000!!

idk, it'd be pretty funny if she did the kickstarter and then tried to crowdsource the materials for the album, too

"So this poster we're giving away. We love the artistic potential of our fans, would YOU like to submit some awesome poster designs?!?"

R.U. Sirius?

(xpost)

any good songwriters out there!? haha!

Wasn't Damo Suzuki's tour thing that he'd just show up and basically jam with a band at each tour date? I think they got paid, though.

I know loads of people who have played with him but none of them seem to be on facebook at the moment, so I can't get a definitive answer to this. Grrr.

any of my fans have an amazing recording studio i can use? xxxtra hugs if you do, lol!

that apple/microsoft/atlas shrugged/iphone digression in the middle of the lefsetz post is a thing of total beauty

/flying bmws

my right eyebrow tattoo got a scratch from my cat and the scar shows up. anyone know a sweet tattoo artist to touch this up before I go on tour? get in touch!

love the idea of letting fans be your band, with or without pay, even if it's just a means of cheaping out on tour costs. this may devalue the efforts of working musicians, but not in a way i personally find objectionable. it's artistically interesting and, i imagine, makes a lot of people very happy. good enough for me.

if she's said some dumb stuff about it, that's a different matter. i'm going to take the controversial position that people shouldn't say dumb stuff.

Ironically, I have totally done free poster and t-shirt designs for bands I really loved, but usually in return for merch, and beer, and hugs.

It's like she wants to operate at that transactional level of the small band touring in a transit van when she's on a million dollar budget, which brings the cognitive dissonance.

I suspect the "turn up for soundcheck and play through it, make sure it's cool" thing is probably more due to some kind of perfectionism, but I am being turned more and more onto this woman's side just because of the vitriol of the people criticising her, which doesn't seem to be so much about what she's done as about ~her as a person~ and that's when I turn off.

this may devalue the efforts of working musicians, but not in a way i personally find objectionable.

Let me guess... you're not a musician?

i'm going to take the controversial position that people shouldn't say dumb stuff.

Yup, I really really wish you would take this position far more frequently, TBH. With a mirror in hand.

lol quality zing of contenderizer

any good songwriters out there!? haha!

I think Jon Anderson actually did something like this, setting his lyrics to MP3s fans sent him. Not sure how fair a shake they got, but there was some griping iirc.

which doesn't seem to be so much about what she's done as about ~her as a person~ and that's when I turn off.

I genuinely do not see much of this itt at all, people seem to be pretty clearly focused on the things she has actually said, posted, and done.

xposting

No, but you should probably spend some of it instead of getting everyone else to work for free and keeping it all for yourself.

Spending the money on tours, books, making records, etc. is not the same as "keeping it for yourself." I have no idea what she is spending her money on, but it's unfair to say "not spending it on brass section" or whatever is the same as "keeping it," is it?

Yup, I really really wish you would take this position far more frequently, TBH. With a mirror in hand.

hey, coming from the single most wretched "human being" on ILM, i have to take that as a compliment

but, she is a PERSON saying those things

Fuck off contenderizer.

Let me guess... you're not a musician?

― emil.y, Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:48 PM (2 minutes ago)

i am, but i don't make money at it. i do make money at other stuff (like writing) that i don't mind other people soliciting without promise of pay.

jon/via/chi OTM.

Fuck off contenderizer.

― emil.y, Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:51 PM (38 seconds ago)

um, no

Spending the money on tours, books, making records, etc. is not the same as "keeping it for yourself." I have no idea what she is spending her money on, but it's unfair to say "not spending it on brass section" or whatever is the same as "keeping it," is it?

Didn't she say she'd come away with a bankable $100k? And that the musicians she's replacing would cost about $35k? So yes, that is the same as keeping it, instead of paying 35 quid to people who are working for you and keeping 65 for yourself.

oh, contenderizerpaws.

Is she allowed to make money? How much?

jesus, contendo

I have no idea what she is spending her money on, but it's unfair to say "not spending it on brass section" or whatever is the same as "keeping it," is it?

There's a quite detailed (almost Albini-ish!) post where she breaks down the millions into what it will go on, including Kickstarter pledges and such, and ends with 100k for putting in the bank. So yay her for thinking that much, but it looks like she is explicitly counting on not paying for the horns+strings.

Is she allowed to make money? How much?

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:56 PM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

By her estimation, with fair pay, the answer to this is $65,000.

incidentally, what WAS AP's problem with robert smith anyway?

xp Flag Post button's there for a reason, folks.

Is she allowed to make money? How much?

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:56 PM (12 seconds ago) Bookmark

you're allowed to do a lot of things... that doesn't exempt you from being criticized for being exploitive

btw all contendo did was clap back to a fair zing, what's the big deal

incidentally, what WAS AP's problem with robert smith anyway?

No problem -- she was and is a massive fan, and the post was about that!

I think he was crystal pepsi and she had to settle for regular pepsi.

oh. people don't usually write open letters for that!

xp

idk, calling someone the worst human being, in scare quotes no less, is a bit of an escalation from "don't say stupid things"

WCC should understand the nature of detente well enough not to fire shots

this is pt barnum level bullshit under the guise of 'fun'

― maura, Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:33 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I like this observation. She's so deep into the carny freakshow vibe that she even operates her business like one.

even going to have a fake siamese twin project

Oh look who helpfully provided an example of "people saying stupid things"

Anyway, as the man says, you all know where the FP button is.

I like the SNA link better, go back there and find a different thread. Fewer clicks than that annoying FP confirmation malarkey.

apart from this whole mess, "the idea of letting fans be your band, with or without pay, even" sounds like total garbage to me, but i don't really go for cult-y scene-y acts like this

I liked it better when we were all just mad at AP and laughing at Lefsetz. :(

what would be funny is if AP just told her fans to bring their instruments to the show and let them play along from the audience, like how people sing along with their favorite songs

She can totally deserve whatever she's getting, ire-wise, but $65,000 ... does she pay taxes on that? What's her gross? Whatever, it's not exactly pocketing $1.2 million. It's a living. And it's also less than the average salary of a Chicago public school teacher. ;)

That would actually be really cool.

xpost

Oh look who helpfully provided an example of "people saying stupid things"

you still owe me an apology, btw

The Grand Theft of the Grand Theft Orchestra?

contenderizer, what the fuck are you doing?

She can totally deserve whatever she's getting, ire-wise, but $65,000 ... does she pay taxes on that? What's her gross? Whatever, it's not exactly pocketing $1.2 million. It's a living. And it's also less than the average salary of a Chicago public school teacher. ;)

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:10 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ummm, so what? What's your point now? That's how much she would make fairly. As you say, it's a living (a living which actually sounds like bloody loads to me, but that's beside the point). It sounds like your point is that she should be allowed to exploit her workers if she wants to, in order to earn a better living than a teacher, because pop stars should OF COURSE earn more than teachers.

The Increasingly Accurately Named Orchestra

I think they still charge for tickets on this tour, $25 at a regional venue, doesn't sound too horribly pricey.

But.. I saw Steve Albini play at the same place for $12! controversy

She can totally deserve whatever she's getting, ire-wise, but $65,000 ... does she pay taxes on that? What's her gross? Whatever, it's not exactly pocketing $1.2 million. It's a living. And it's also less than the average salary of a Chicago public school teacher. ;)

The avg US wage for 2010 was $41,673.83. She's taking more than that home before tallying the expenses and profits on the tour and merchandising.

Maybe as things stand now, the tour is a massive money pit and she's going to end up netting something more like $40K, but I doubt it.

contenderizer, what the fuck are you doing?

New board description.

Oh yeah, the breakdown is on the Kickstarter

contenderizer, what the fuck are you doing?

talking to WCC

don’t forget: i’m CHOOSING to spend all this money making the packages fancy as shit….and i’m CHOOSING to tour this way. EXPENSIVELY.

And you're choosing not to pay your musicians, okay.

Speaking of Steve Albini

http://pitchfork.com/news/47845-steve-albini-slams-amanda-palmer-for-asking-fans-to-play-in-her-band-for-free/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PitchforkLatestNews+%28Pitchfork%3A+Latest+News%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

Er, uh, that's exactly WHY we were talking about Albini.

"Don't encourage your audience to gather at a mud pit downstate and sell meth and blowjobs to each other - be more like GG Allin instead"

Hah, I'd missed that the kickstarter actually links Albini's "The Problem With Music".

hahaha that's perfect

Time to show all messages...

As a musician, I find it annoying, but not all that surprising. Getting paid in beer and hugs most of my life anyways, like most musicians. And yes if there are fans and it makes them happy then that's great. I personally wouldn't do it, but then again I haven never heard AP, and if the Boredoms were asking for musicians or something I'd jump at that chance. I think her big crime here is timing, coming right after a Kickstarter where her fans gave her $1.2 million dollars.

Is there a breakdown upthread about the spending on that? I'm really skeptical that she ends up with only $65,000 of that...

about that "show all messages" idea...

lol.

Ctrl-F 'breakdown' like you were on a house thread!

Hey, how about she brings in barstaff who like her and will work for free too? And security (qualified of course, but fans). And gets fans who like her to make her merch.

Then sells it.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amandapalmer/amanda-palmer-the-new-record-art-book-and-tour/posts/232020

Hmm....immediately deducts $250,000 for "all of that behind-the-scenes stuff which just got us to DAY ONE of kickstarter"

.....okay. That seems to be the most-in depth description of that quarter of a million dollars.

Imma keep reading here...

I think people jumping on the million dollar thing (or that this is coming after her "making a million dollar")should read the breakdown of her budget and then maybe judge her based on that rather than assuming she's got millions to spend. She's pretty clear about where all the money goes.

I;m no fan her music, but there's a lot of assumptions being kicked around here.

edit: which it appears someone is doing.

http://medeaconnection.com/needmoney.jpg

^ Just looking at this photo and seeing how many cards for other stuff she has lined up

xp: everyone read the breakdown and is pointing out that if she'd paid $35K to fill out the rest of her band, she'd still have $65K left over, which is well above the median US yearly salary

Also that's based on a million, she's on 1.2 at the moment.

Ok the rest of it looks pretty sensible. Really effing ambitious kickstarter, if you ask me!

Of course, all the money she makes on tour will be profit, but she deserves that if she's pre-funding the entire thing.

I got this recently (I'm on this mailing list for a Christian song parody band) -- what do you guys feel about this in comparison?:

"J. Jackson, lead singer for ApologetiX here.

I prayed a long time before writing this, so I hope you can take a moment and read it.

We try to never make our trials sound worse than they are, but frankly, our financial situation is dire.

This ministry supports six families and 17 children. Right now, some of those families, including my own, aren't getting their monthly paychecks. Other bills are overdue, too.

In this economy, ApologetiX has become increasingly dependent upon donations from fans."

Vinyl & CD releases sound pretty deluxe, art book, 7" vinyl mailorder series, 'arts & crafts', art shows, custom turntables (???), pretty amazing use of that money if you ask me!

Most offensive thing about the kickstarter is using the hand-written notes on posterboard. "Hello 2005 cellphone commercial."

Nobody on this thread (I think) is criticising the Kickstarter itself. I mean, she says she is CHOOSING to do it like it's some sort of martyrdom burden that she's putting on herself rather than her fans, which is a bit odd, but fair enough - you're making an artefact that people will treasure or whatever, if you have fans who want to back that then go for it. What people are criticising is the fact that she says she will bank $100k (and yes, AF is right, this is under the assumption she makes a million, and she made more than that), but then says she can't afford to pay a band. That is bullshit.

But it does seem like there's about 500k floating around in a mystery vortex.

also even if she WANTS to bank $100k, she could, uh, rebudget in other places and cut back on costumes or some other bullshit.

the other thing about the breakdown is that the up-front costs (product design and packaging, etc) she's fundraising for are entirely recoupable. they're all basically investments to enable greater future earnings. in the past, people have usually taken out loans or secured other forms of financial backing when they couldn't afford to fund their own for-profit art projects outright. she's getting her fans to pay for the manufacture of goods and provision of services that they will then re-buy! quite an amazing scheme/scam, tbh.

"If I sleep on friends couches" does not compute with "my album cost $250K"

The mystery vortex of her new car and house. Seriously though, emil.y otm.

suddenly a contendo appears and he's otm. that kickstarter is mostly expenses without profits.

"7"s cost $100 a unit" is absolutely the most insane thing I've ever heard. Gold-foil stamped 180-gram 2 x vinyl with full bleed full colour silkscreened fold-out packages and Swarovski crystal inserts will not run you $100 a unit.

Just someone explain how it costs $250k to prepare for a kickstarter?

she's getting her fans to pay for the manufacture of goods and provision of services that they will then re-buy! quite an amazing scheme/scam, tbh.

Not really. Because the fans that contribute to the kickstarter automatically get the goods she is producing when their done, they don't have to rebuy them.

re: 250k to run kickstarter, there are professional kickstarter firms that handle and promote your kickstarter projects now...

embarrassed at my egregious misuse of "they're"

BTW just incidentally, do they pay sales tax on on all this? THAT aspect of it does seem like a scheme.

Not really. Because the fans that contribute to the kickstarter automatically get the goods she is producing when their done, they don't have to rebuy them.

― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:48 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Right -- kickstarter "donations" include a pre-order of the album, and more in some cases.

you guys should check out http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com as it makes it clear how amazing some things getting funding really are

Yeah, the Kickstarter isn't just a donation system, it's a pre-ordering goods system. But she will have surplus sales after that.

(A few xposts where others point out the same thing)

I like that ILMers feel qualified to decide what a fair wage is for a performing artist.

you wouldn't want to know what we think fair wages for lawyers are :)

fair point on the pre-order business, but not everyone who contributed to that 1.2 mil (or whatever) gets everything she's gonna use it to make/do, right? as i understand it, she's still using the money to make and do a lot of stuff that isn't pre-sold. i may have missed something crucial, though...

xxpost -- Given the number of ILMers posting who are performing artists one way or another, yeah, I'd say they do feel qualified for good reason.

Anyway I am:

a) totally pro-Kickstarter and Albini's statement is petty and weird

b) totally pro-high incomes for musicians and if Amanda Palmer is not banking $200K+ a year with the amount of fans she has and the amount of talent she possesses (which as far as I'm concerned is considerable) then I have several suggests on where she could trim production costs

c) feel like everything this woman has said on her Kickstarter page reads like she's a grifter. Anybody who's run a label or put out their own record would look at that in disgust.

Owen P wins thread, completely otm on all three counts.

what was the scope of the project when she was only asking for $100k?

xxpost -- Given the number of ILMers posting who are performing artists one way or another, yeah, I'd say they do feel qualified for good reason.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:54 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

to set the upper limit?

I defer to Owen P.'s answer just now as making the case very well on all fronts.

7,000+ high-end CD-books & thank you cards cost about $15 a package to manufacture and ship. that’s $105,000.

BS? These guys say it would cost under $8k. Maybe not 'high-end' but still, that sounds about 5x more than it should be.
https://www.unifiedmanufacturing.com/products-page/product-category/cd-jewel-cases-folders-cd-jewel-case-clear-audio-cd-24-page-booklet-replication/

i dunno, albini's statement is more charitable than "she sounds like a grifter"

I guess people respect grifters more?

owen makes fair points (idk about "grifter" but otherwise). I still really don't see the big deal about getting musicians to do voluntarily and under no false pretenses do a couple hours of work (which they consider fun) for free.

She really missed an opportunity to offer "Play onstage with this rockstar!" and sell it for $50 or something.

Geeting musicians who want to go to the show anyway.

A lot of 1099s needed if everyone at every stop got 50 bucks.

No, they don't get 50 bucks, they pay 50 bucks! I was saying she could have put that up on kickstarter, "Pledge $50 for the unique opportunity to share the stage!" Missed out on a good chunk of change.

well, that does seem pretty grifter-y

No one is actually trying to set an upper limit on how much Amanda Palmer is allowed to make...? Unless pointing out that she could have afforded to hire the professional musicians she wanted and still banked a take-home that is 1.5 times the national average salary is being interpreted as "and she should not make a penny more, ever"? I mean, isn't she selling tickets to these shows, and merchandise at them? Does she not expect to sell copies of this album to people who didn't contribute to her Kickstarter?

That's just a stupid, lazy argument that doesn't engage with the actual criticism, which is that the balance sheet displayed does not match the picture of reality AP is attempting to portray, particularly in the face of the "even if I break even, this is a success" rhetoric she wrote on her own damn Kickstarter page.

On one hand, I can dig that musicians should be paid, especially when the person doing the paying had made what some could deem a very public cash grab. This is human nature - ask any lottery winner about their experience and the first thing they list is people asking for loans. And it's also in (most of) our nature to be sympathetic to the plights of musicians who make no money and scrape by despite trying to make something we all love to share for us.

On the other hand (and this is even more relevant thanks to Wayne Coyne coming up earlier) is this a shit-ton different than when the Lips ask people in tour stops to don smelly animal costumes and act as stage props? As far as I know (and I spoke to one person who got to be a bunny or some such shit) they don't get paid, but are expected to perform in their own way.

Would people have the same problem with the Lips if Wayne just publicly raised a shit-ton of money online? Or is the addition of a kazoo or bassoon into the equation what makes it blasphemous?

These are honest questions... I am on the fence of this serious issue.

what was the scope of the project when she was only asking for 100k?

I assume that she was doing what everyone does which is "for $10 you get something that will cost me $5, for $20 you will get something which will cost me $10" and then assume that half of the target will be put into actual construction. Except she's already made the album and racked up $250k in debt?

I suppose she may have shot for a low figure because fan-based stuff like Kickstarter is exactly in her wheelhouse - if she'd asked for $500k and failed that would be a hell of a thing.

my friend has posited that maybe her sleazy cabaret mystique is not, in fact, an act and she is an actual grifter

amanda palmer has always reminded me of smug people who were told, a lot, that they were really creative and intelligent (she is, although I don't personally like like her work) and as a result winds up with a complete inability to admit she made a mistake, or is wrong, or isn't the most special apple in the bin.

On the other hand (and this is even more relevant thanks to Wayne Coyne coming up earlier) is this a shit-ton different than when the Lips ask people in tour stops to don smelly animal costumes and act as stage props?

Depends - is Wayne Coyne looking to see people's Equity cards before they put on the costumes?

Is Wayne Coyne asking people to submit artistic resumes and performance reels before he puts them into an animal costume?

She also didn't, I'm assuming, get professional musicians, she got somewhat skilled amateurs. Which is a difference. She didn't use unpaid musicians as her backing band (afaik), she just used a handful of them on a couple of tunes as a horn section. She had one rehearsal with them. She obviously did not expect the degree of polish and perfection one would get from a paid musician in a touring band. She couldn't fault them for making mistakes (which I'm sure they did).

no, but I think he dances around them and sprinkles them with confetti, which is undoubtedly on-the-job harassment if they were paid

x-p

No no, when I say "she sounds like a grifter", I mean, "she sounds like she is fudging numbers, making up expenses, factoring in personal costs and expenses into her 'production costs'". I am saying "she sounds like she is lying". "This reads like she is lying." Her numbers are off and she makes no assertions, states no facts.

Note that I am not flat-out saying "Amanda Palmer is a liar" because I am couching my words carefully to avoid any assertions, just as Amanda Palmer is careful to say "oh, these art books will cost, say, about $300 a unit".

If she were to assert "this art book will absolutely cost $300 a unit" then somebody might ask her to show her a manufacturing receipt, seeing as they are 200% more expensive than the most expensive book you'd find in any art store at retail price. Then she's be lying and the Musician's Union would come and take her piano away.

Note that I am also avoiding any "I am picking on her specifically because her music sucks" or "how much should musicians make, anyway?" debates because fuck all that.

"One year of perfoming as 'Quacky' at the county fair in junior high doesn't count."

Animal friends at Flaming Lips shows just show up, put on costumes, and dance around. Palmer is requiring these unpaid musician fans to learn the music and show up early for rehearsal. I guess that could still be exciting if you're a fan, and if you're just doing it at one stop. afaik, she's not dragging these same unpaid musicians around on the road for 3 weeks without paying them money.

(don't take the non-judgementalness of my previous post as a blessing on what she's doing. she's totally a grifter and a fucking hack.)

Well, that would cost on travel.

what the flaming lips don't want you to know is they're going to have that bathtub on stage and their shows

i wanted my brother to do a tour of the u.s. and hire homeless people to back him up in each city. because nobody would know the difference! hahaha! ah, i kill me. but i think it would have been a great tour. i did not suggest what he should pay each homeless band though. it would have been a sly commentary on underground art and poverty. hmmmm, kickstarter here i come...

So that $250,000 spent on recording the album....must have been a real kick-ass DIY studio! Power to the people, right?

the future of music iirc

so we're pretty much out of new stuff to say about this now huh

I don't have an issue w/playing for free on principal. I have certainly done it a few times, tho usually just for my friends.

However, my question is if no one agreed to take her up on her "offer", would she scrap the whole orchestral idea...or would she hire musicians? There is a conspicuous "getting something for nothing" flavor to this, which tastes extra bad coming off a huge kickstarter campaign.

x-post haha that's when the latecomers hit the thread

she is just bad imo

she is no call me maybe

captain beefheart made the magic band eat lima beans

I think mostly what people dislike about her is the fake-DIY angle. I'm with you on that (although I think a lot more "DIY" stuff is fake DIY than gets outed as being so). I just don't think this thing has much to do with the exploitation of musicians.

Has anyone brought up that the name of her accompaniment is "The Grand Theft Orchestra"?

I'm guessing she would just play with her stripped-down band, but since she had the option of adding a bunch of talented fans she went with that.

I think I actually would respect her more as an actual grifter, in that she would have in some sense earned all that kickstarter money.

just listened to this, fuckin' A is this aggravating music kickstart my balls

basically this seems like a pretty gross move but doesn't seem like that big of a deal overall, and the reaction to it is kind of gross too because if it was someone other than amanda palmer (i.e. someone with cred) doing it i doubt the response would be as venomous

I wish it was someone higher profile! Like Bono and U2, that'd be great.

Well you know n/a there are some teachers that are on strike too right now and some people describing them as whiners also

She also didn't, I'm assuming, get professional musicians, she got somewhat skilled amateurs. Which is a difference

From her own post:

http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/20120821/

you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT! lessons in fifth grade do not count, so please include in your email some proof of that (a link to you playing on a real stage would be great, or a resume will
do. just don’t LIE…you’ll be embarrassed if you show up for rehearsal and everyone’s looking at you wondering why you can’t actually play the trombone.)

If all she's looking for is "somewhat skilled amateurs", why is she asking interested people to have a performance resume or proof of yourself playing to an audience on a stage in order to do it?

Not even going into the "they're amateurs, they must have made mistakes" thing because that's not even relevant to this argument.

Well you know n/a there are some teachers that are on strike too right now and some people describing them as whiners also

― nabiscuits otm (Ówen P.), Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:40 PM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think we've hit our quota on the use of the phrase "apples and oranges" in this thread or i'd respond to this

just listened to this, fuckin' A is this aggravating music kickstart my balls
don't think i've ever written this before but irl lol

Owen P., what do you think are the biggest lies in that kickstarter run-down?

like, a "somewhat skilled amateur" could tape themselves playing in the bedroom, if she REALLY just wanted to make sure ppl had a rudimentary grasp of their instruments, but that's rather conspicuously NOT what she asked for

NO ONE asks for a performance resume from amateur musicians unless they're being asked to produce professional output.

I'm guessing she would just play with her stripped-down band, but since she had the option of adding a bunch of talented fans she went with that.

I actually disagree. I think to even have the idea you want strings and horns means you've already thought about the arrangement for the songs, and if you suddenly lose half your "band", you don't just decide to change all the arrangements, when it would be a quick, albeit more expensive solution to just get some more players. Cheap ones even, college students, etc.

That's the thing about this -- it's not like it would be *that* expensive for her to hire, say, 5 more players cheaply and bring them along. What you lose by doing that (other than a little money) is all the PR working w/new people in each city. After this tour, she'll have worked with dozens of new musicians, each of whom is apparently happy enough to play for free w/her. Maybe they do it again? Maybe they network w/their friends and tell them what a cool person AP is. (and full disclosure, I know the guys she worked with last time she was in SF, and they have helped her network w/players in other cities)

@ n/a I'm sorry, again, if I'm winning the game of Who's The Biggest Asshole. But I make music on a pay-what-you-can basis, I'm rewarded 95% of the time. Sometimes it's "a fat cheque" and other times it's "an archival recording and a hug" but it's always rewarding. The other 5% of the time it's talented musicians who are also grifters. And, as Sund4r mentioned upthread, there isn't really any method of protecting oneself from these grifters except internet chatter.

http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/7aced6fd1013cc9fdc7288d0dde7faae/o184889.jpg

Re: the teachers' strike maguffin, it was actually a reaction to the "her music sucks" and "how much should she really make anyway" talk because it reminded me of this article http://coreyrobin.com/2012/09/12/why-people-do-hate-teachers-unions-because-they-hate-teachers/

ugh, this is the part that annoys me most about that breakdown:

first i’ll pay off the lovely debt - stacks of bills and loans and the like - associated with readying all of the stuff that had to happen BEFORE i brought this project to kickstarter.
for the past 8 months or so, i wasn’t touring - and therefore wasn’t making much income - but every step of the way, there were expenses. so, during that time, i borrowed from various friends and family who i’d built up trust with over the years.

no one cares that you decided not work for the last 8 months, and if the kickstarter had 'only' made $100k, she wouldn't have been like, "thanks guys, i paid off my debts! now i'm going to make the record in garageband and do a solo tour via greyhound bus!"

many xps

also and this was mentioned upthread, she's married to neil gaiman, who is wealthy? right? so fuck her and her $35k

haha okay I guess we REALLY have nothing new to say about this

but 95% of band-related kickstarters seem like lazy, entitled approaches w/inflated budgets to me. this is the same thing on an insane scale.

xp

you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT! lessons in fifth grade do not count, so please include in your email some proof of that (a link to you playing on a real stage would be great, or a resume will
do. just don’t LIE…you’ll be embarrassed if you show up for rehearsal and everyone’s looking at you wondering why you can’t actually play the trombone.)

Reading this tips it. She really does seem to be looking for professional competence. (Dominique's point is pretty salient too.)

She strikes me as too idealistic to be a grifter (though of course that is the ultimate level of grifterdom), but she may be surrounded by sharks who can hear "i’m almost never looking at the monetary bottom line, i’m always looking at the creative bottom line. the happiness index of my life and creative self, not the amount of dough i’ll have in the bank at the end of a project." being typed from half a continent away.

Haha on the other hand "oh yeah I have lovely creditors who have let me run up $250k of debt which this Kickstarter target doesn't even cover" might push the needle back over to grifter.

Great Cthulhu, the rest of this year is going to suck eggs if every artist now has to issue an editorial response every time Albini, Palmer, Lowery, Lefsetz, or an NPR intern says something.

IIRC, the Dresden Dolls have always relied upon fans to bolster up the circus cabaret part of their show and I believe that from Palmer's POV, this tour isn't any different. There's absolutely a lot of jealousy embedded in this current backlash - are there any articles that don't refer to her now as "Amanda Palmer, Kickstarter Millionaire?" The musician union hasn't criticized Green Day for perpetually hauling people out of the audience to play with them on stage. Perhaps Louis C.K. should be picketed for doing everything himself - he's putting important writers and editors out of work! Do I now have to worry about being called a scab every time I help out a friend?

What bothers me greatly is seeing how the Web 2.x economic model (pump-and-dump venture capital, unpaid labor disguised as "great career exposure," royalties paid in useless stock options) has muscled in on the old system. In no way do I want to go back to the old days, but it bears repeating that crowdsourcing A&R may not be your best entertainment value. Maybe Palmer can pay her backing band in TED conference tickets?

(accumulated x-posts in there)

Dude, the thread is basically fractal at this point - you can read any ten posts and they'll have rebuttals to that.

I was in a band over the past few years which had like 14 members, costume changes, dancers on stage, toured in a school bus. They were all drama students and art students and whenever i brought up "Where is this money going?" they attacked me and went on and on about how they weren't doing it for the money and there's something wrong with me if i need to rely on them to pay my bills. Needless to say i quit.

the reaction to it is kind of gross too because if it was someone other than amanda palmer (i.e. someone with cred) doing it i doubt the response would be as venomous

^^^^this is what is really turning me back towards Amanda Palmer at this point because no matter what my feelings are about her work, I think that some people ITT are really being quite nasty about her in a totally uncalledfor kind of way.

The thing is, I don't think it's unreasonable, what she asked for. "Provide some kind of proof you can play an instrument" is not that great of an expectation, considering people are presumably going to be paying something for this performance and should be able to expect it not to totally suck.

The whole "learn the song and turn up for soundcheck" - I mean, that is just basic courtesy if you are sitting in with anyone's band! Both to the pseudo-session player and the artist! It's the barest minimum, even if you're a volunteer. If I were getting paid for a gig, I'd expect at least 2 full rehearsals and a soundcheck. Even on the gigs where I've done something as little as backing vocals for kicks or for free, turning up for a run-through at soundcheck is a bare minimum. I can't believe that even a professional musician would be OK with just turning up and getting onstage without so much as a run-through, let alone an amateur.

And once you get into slagging off who a woman is married to, and the whole "she made Neil Gaiman jump the shark and suck now!" this really isn't anything to do with music or musicians union fees at all any more, so you can fuck right off.

Albini, Palmer, Lowery, Lefsetz, or an NPR intern

The Traveling Wilburys 2.0

so they all had rich parents, huh?

xp to adam

I was in a band over the past few years which had like 14 members, costume changes, dancers on stage, toured in a school bus. They were all drama students and art students and whenever i brought up "Where is this money going?" they attacked me and went on and on about how they weren't doing it for the money and there's something wrong with me if i need to rely on them to pay my bills. Needless to say i quit.

Other than that, how was life in GWAR, anyway?

"Provide some kind of proof you can play an instrument" is not the same thing as "send an artistic resume or video of yourself onstage playing to an audience".

"A list of gigs you've played or a video of a gig" is really not that massive an ask to provide.

The thing is, I don't think it's unreasonable, what she asked for. "Provide some kind of proof you can play an instrument" is not that great of an expectation, considering people are presumably going to be paying something for this performance and should be able to expect it not to totally suck.

The whole "learn the song and turn up for soundcheck" - I mean, that is just basic courtesy if you are sitting in with anyone's band! Both to the pseudo-session player and the artist!

No one is saying that these are unreasonable expectations, just that if you expect professional-level competence, the honourable thing to do is to pay someone accordingly.

She strikes me as too idealistic to be a grifter (though of course that is the ultimate level of grifterdom), but she may be surrounded by sharks who can hear "i’m almost never looking at the monetary bottom line, i’m always looking at the creative bottom line. the happiness index of my life and creative self, not the amount of dough i’ll have in the bank at the end of a project." being typed from half a continent away.

Based on this interview she strikes me as Dame Darcy + "The Seven Habits Of Highly Effective People."

(That distinguishes this from the Flaming Lips example.)
xpost to self

"has been on a stage before" != "professional-level competence."

Yeah, rich parents. Not that they all had rich parents, but the one in ultimate control did, and it showed. And DIY artists tend to be really great enablers for that type of behavior, as we are seeing here.

I was in a band over the past few years which had like 14 members, costume changes, dancers on stage, toured in a school bus. They were all drama students and art students and whenever i brought up "Where is this money going?" they attacked me and went on and on about how they weren't doing it for the money and there's something wrong with me if i need to rely on them to pay my bills. Needless to say i quit.

Sounds similar to the way a cult works. Or Burning Man.

WCC, can you provide specific examples of the uncalled for personal attacks on AP you've read itt? Other than a misguided comment someone made about how she affected Gaiman's work (as you noted), I really didn't get a feel for that kind of thing going on.

"has been on a stage before" != "professional-level competence."

Hm, perhaps I was reading more into that than I should have. I do think Dominique's point is a good one.

How can something like this not be personal though? There's no nice way to say someone is behaving dishonorably without calling them a dishonorable person.

Well that's an issue of semantics but I'd infinitely prefer to describe a person as "has cancer" instead of "cancerous"

"Other than that, how was life in GWAR, anyway?"

i actually knew one of the guys who started gwar. he worked at a prosthetics company down the road from me and i saw him all the time. he was very bitter about gwar and gwar money/rights/credit.

The Pete Best of GWAR!

"A list of gigs you've played or a video of a gig" is really not that massive an ask to provide.

And $50 - $100 isn't unreasonable to ask as compensation for your talent.

I admittedly know a disproportionate number of conservatory kids but the vast majority of them who would have regular gigging experience on non-rock instruments would not do this.

Distant xpost to Dan (I think?) but I brought up her take-home as compared to teachers not to say that teachers are getting paid too much but that I don't really consider $65,000 a year a shit-load of money. Maybe it is compared to what I make, and certainly it is compared to average salaries in America, let alone to the 20% of Americans living on $20,000 for a family of four, but really, $65,000 is not Scrooge McDuck swimming in cash loot. It's a very good living for a moderately popular act, which she has earned through years of work, and frankly if that's all she's making I'm shocked, given her profile. But this is no whatever the name of that band was that audaciously wrote a much-mocked Op ed about how expensive it is to be a hot young new band living in NYC. Palmer seems to work pretty hard (unless you don't consider what she does hard work at all, in which case, bring it up with the full-time touring musicians on the board) and she's entitled to make money any way she can. It's hardly exploitative to take volunteer fan musicians and put them on on stage, no more than it would be to ask fans to help carry equipment to the van.

BTW, I saw Springsteen twice last weekend, and both times the asshole brought some kid on stage to sing part of a shitty song while he took a break. Child labor, past their bedtime and not even paid! The nerve of the dick. For what he makes he really should be shelling out some clams.

And $50 - $100 isn't unreasonable to ask as compensation for your talent.

Yeah, this makes sense to me if you're asking for even a reasonable level of competence (as opposed to just a fan shouting into a mic or somesuch).

can you provide specific examples of the uncalled for personal attacks on AP you've read itt?

http://twitter.com/#!/search/amanda%20palmer%20sucks

Why is everyone acting like the money left over from her Kickstarter is definitively the only money she's making this year? She's not even halfway through her tour yet; she could lose or gain much more still.

Also, in her own words, she said she'd be happy to break even on this; currently she is $100K ahead and still short on musicians for her tour, claiming she can't afford them. The numbers don't actually add up with the rhetoric.

If her whole thing had been "I want to network with and reward fans with an experience" rather than "I can't afford $35K" this would be an entirely different conversation.

She should have held a contest/auditions for fans to comprise her band, then taken a group of them on the road for a while. And paid them. That would have been pretty cool, too, like some old school MTV contest.

http://twitter.com/#!/search/amanda%20palmer%20sucks

Oh, sorry, let me explain that itt = in this thread.

Did Bruce have the fan send in audition tapes & resume, show up early for rehearsal? Bring an expensive instrument that may be in danger of getting messed w at a rock concert?

No, the dude just grabbed the poor kid out of the crowd! Conscription!

there's a difference between a magician spontaneously asking a fan to come on stage to be part of an act and asking the fan to be the leggy assistant that actually secretly performs the trick, and asking for vetted backup instruments does feel more in the leggy assistant category.

It is hilarious to read this thread while listening to the new PSB song "Ego Music"

lol @ Josh just willfully trolling at this point

Yeah, sorry, didn't intend anyone to take me seriously.

Chuck Berry had the right idea. Don't play a note until you have the bag of money in your hands.

Glitter and nipple pasties are pretty pricey these days.

Now I'm imagining Chuck Berry in glitter and nipple pasties, thanks.

how about his ding-a-ling?

I think part of my initial ire at complainers about this is that I first heard about this from multiple whiny musician friends on facebook who seem to feel entitled to a living playing music and seem to be convinced that if they can't, it's because people don't value music enough or something

Fans shelling out 1.2 mil is proof that someone out there values music, even if it's hers.

the amanda palmers of the world are crowdsourcing me out of a living!

otm. I really don't have a problem w her fans wanting to play or her asking them. I've never thought anything at all about Amanda Palmer til this thread, and I started reading up on her, and now I'm LOL @ Drama Students cos her thing really sounds like a cliched drama student's wet dream.

xp get better fb friends i guess

Maybe it's better that her fans' parents' money goes to her rather than a Romney SuperPAC, amiright?

according to the Q&A video re: the staged suicide recordings, she was 18 when the recording/"performance" happened, the album with the clips was released in 2008. so she sat on the recordings for 14 years and then decided as a 32 year old grown ass adult to include the recording in the album.

i'm not familiar with the album in question so i'm not sure whether it fits in thematically, but that is just completely mindblowingly indefensible imo

her thing really sounds like a cliched drama student's wet dream

bingo!

BTW I am currently laughing inside at the image of 14 drama students on a bus in animal costumes berating Adam for being too money-driven

like I am picturing this felt lion a la school play wizard of oz shaking his round felt lion head exaggeratedly and saying "this isn't about the money!"

lol me too. Just add discussions on what each person's Spirit Animal is, how good they are at Reiki, their crystal collection, etc.

it's like a really fucked up, psychedellic version of a C.S. Lewis novel

if we're saying that the participants should be demanding $50-$100 (and presumably aren't), then it seems to me that the onus falls on them more than AP. sure, everyone has the right to make a living at their chosen profession, but we also have the right to give it away for free if we so choose. and, like AP, we have the right to ask others to work for any or even no wage. they can always refuse, after all.

i suppose that argument might open a nasty can of worms wr2 worker's rights and fair hiring practices, but in this particular case, i don't think those sorts of concerns apply.

There are good points and counterpoints on both sides here. If Palmer wasn't such a polarizing figure, maybe it would be more cut & dried... What if, say, Ian MacKaye did something similar? Would there be such an uproar? (Or would Ian simply never do such a thing because it is the "wrong" thing to do? Someone get Ian on the phone...)

The Branca thing does seem to be similar, aside from the "one-off art installation" nature of it. I've asked my friends who played in it what they think, but nobody has replied yet.

When this story first dropped someone told me that she plays ukulele with a capo. Is that true? Cos it's quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I jumped at the opportunity to do the Branca thing in 2001. Rode the Greyhound for 11h to do it and it felt like an honour at the time (early 20s). No way would I do that for free now. But yeah, I mentioned above that I thought about this right away. One difference is that, iirc, admission was free for this event. It was funded by a public grant. I don't know how much it was, or whether Branca took home much, but I imagine that it would not have been enough to pay 100 musicians.

Provide some kind of proof you can play an instrument" is not that great of an expectation, considering people are presumably going to be paying something for this performance

Is this what people refer to as an "own goal?"

hahahaha let's back away from the controversy stirred by Amanda Palmer and pretend this is Ian "Guilty Of Being White" MacKaye

didn't ian dance for free at that saturday night live thing?

One difference is that, iirc, admission was free for this event.

In the UK admission was £25, apparently (I did not see it, though I would have liked to). No idea how much Branca got out of it.

Yeah, the guy who's scrupulous about tracking down people who recorded 7 inches for Dischord when they were 18 so he can give them $30 cheques would definitely do this.

xp

don't drag fugazi into this u dildos

I'm going to start a band called U Dildos.

Done.

We need $50,000 to put out our first 7". In return, I will personally stamp each sleeve, and include a Polaroid of my cat.

I also need money for a Polaroid camera, unless someone wants to, um, volunteer one.

Q: do you need a cat?

if so, you can use mine while you're in town. she will not require payment, but might appreciate some lap time.

I need $10,000 just for all the polaroid cameras and cats and stuff I need just to get this kickstarter going!

btw remember when the dude from animal collective actually literally scammed people through kickstarter and basically just bought drugs or idk what with the funds and there were like 1/100 as many posts about it?

the dude from animal collective also wasn't getting feted on npr etc

and yes, he is an asshole too

So, wait, that was real? I figured it was someone posing as him.

btw remember when the dude from animal collective actually literally scammed people through kickstarter and basically just bought drugs or idk what with the funds and there were like 1/100 as many posts about it?

― look at this quarterstaff (Hurting 2), Friday, September 14, 2012 12:47 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I just saw this last week - seems dodgy as hell, have they ever actually addressed this anywhere?

xpost,I should stress, just to get it out there and make sure that there is no confusion, that I will charge your cat for laptime. $50. However, I will post your (and anyone's) cat's name to my tumblr as an "executive produce" of U Dildo's proposed 7".

I also need a lathe.

And a turntable, come to think of it. Also, a new Macbook to edit my video about the making of the 7". Will also offer "executive producer" status for that, too. Name will be in the credits.

Can I buy a degree from this University of Dildo? How much would that cost?

You're thinking of Dildo U., in Boston. My band is U Dildos. We didn't go to college, because it's a bourgeois pursuit.

But for a $50,000 a year sponsorship, we will go to college.

so that's how milo aukerman afforded grad school

"kickstart my balls" is a great contribution to the lexicon, btw

btw remember when the dude from animal collective actually literally scammed people through kickstarter and basically just bought drugs or idk what with the funds and there were like 1/100 as many posts about it?

― look at this quarterstaff (Hurting 2), Thursday, September 13, 2012 6:47 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i never heard about this!

I'm trying to find it but I can't remember the AC guy's name because it's something really stupid!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/legupmgmt/deacon-animal-collective-at-the-festival-in-the/comments

the comment thread on that is one of my favorite internet things ever

Dan Rollman on August 21
Hi Josh.

We are now approaching three years since your project was funded. Three years! You relied on the belief of strangers, who gave you over $25,000 so you could have a fun adventure in Africa.

It's truly disappointing. You've hurt my ability to have faith and belief in the honesty and commitment of others. I still hope you'll follow through and deliver what you promised, but with each passing month, my skepticism grows.

Bummed,

Dan Rollman

Animal Collective dude is a much, much worse person than Amanda Palmer; there's nothing really to discuss re: that situation aside from "lol why did you give dude from Animal Collective money, you dimwits"

I dunno, if that is actually him (as I say, I only heard about this last week, never seen anyone talk about it or confirm it), then it should be spoken about - it is a TERRIBLE thing to do.

He has given it to a charity! Maybe. Or something else! Maybe.

it's also not 100% clear that he didn't give the money to this supposed charity, but it looks like he was (1) very vague about it the whole time (2) changed his story (3) never delivered the extras he promised and (4) never followed up to explain wth happened

hmm

I only heard about the AC scam on the Centipede Hz thread last week; I did have visions of starting a "hi I'm Nelly; contribute to my Kickstarter" scam but then I remembered I have morals

There have been several updates posted for the benefit of backers only. I hope that they're something along the lines of "I went, it was great, accompanying album is taking longer than I thought"

I will make a kickstarter for my puerto rico resort vacation. For a contribution of $500, I will send you an autographed photo of me, by the pool at my puerto rico resort, in swim trunks, lighting a cigar with a $100 bill.

He spent it on Dario G white labels

Yeah, there's not much to discuss about the AC dude thing yet. Its fucking awful if true, but otoh, I also think the internet would be all about exposing him if it was true... so I don't think we've heard the entire story yet. It is definitely shady as hell though.

Like I feel like blogs would be blowing up all over the place if an AnCo guy really did pull this, y'know?

I think, as much as ppl love AC, an at-the-time ex-member ripping off $25K from fans isn't that big a story

Eh, there's been bigger stories made out of a lot less on the blog circuit lately.

Regardless, it is shady as hell and I do hope to one day hear the full story.

Seriously, I'd think it was a big story... like, bigger than this, if it's true. I mean, even if the money went to charity, that isn't what he promised his backers at all.

wow that's ill

listen i'm butthurt as the next guy that some crappy steampunk burlesque chick with horrible music who's married to a millionaire nerd author got a lot of money on kickstarter instead of some actual good music....but that animal collective thing is pretty foul if true....and at this point the fact he hasn't gone back to the site to comment seems pretty incriminating...and the fact that, as ppl there pointed out, the band has rolled on w/their career.

According to wikipedia AnCo dude funded a trip to Africa to play a festival, which he did end up playing, but then no autographed CDs or whatever were ever sent to people. I think he used at least some of the money to do what he said he was going to.

yeah but per the main page the proposal was changed because a label fronted the travel money:

For those of you who have been following this project already, the plan has evolved significantly and we feel for the better. The initial consideration for this project was that while the festival wanted Josh to perform, they could offer no fee for performing or assistance for travel. The travel expenses for Josh and the 2 people joining him has come to nearly $10,000. Kickstarter invited us to raise the money through this site. SInce then the record label Paw Tracks has decided to step in and cover the production costs of this project, including the travel expenses and the manufacturing and distribution of the book. This gave us an opportunity to expand this project in two ways. First we felt this gave us a really great opportunity to redirect the funds that come in through this site to an organization in Mali we feel would really benefit from having $25,000 to help people in REAL need. Secondly we will now have the means to get the book out to a wider audience. The way it is now arranged all of the money that has been, and will continue to be, donated to this site will not only make people aware of Josh’s creative endeavor through cross-cultural exchange, but it will directly impact Mali and the Tuareg people whose musicians are a principal part of the Festival Au Desert .

Josh is excited to explore the possibility of finding ways to link his music and making a difference in the world. The vision now is that while he participates in the festival we are able to bring $25,000 directly to TEMEDT, a Mali organization that is working to create a law that abolishes slavery of the black Tuareg people, set up legal support services for them, create economic development in black Tuareg communities, and give them educational possibilities. This project has been validated by a prestigious Ashoka Fellowship award. All Ashoka projects are cutting-edge social entrepreneurs, using innovative approaches to create systemic change. www.ashoka.org Africa is a continent ravaged by Aids, disease, civil war, genocide, poverty and hunger. This festival is an opportunity to celebrate and enhance the beauty and gifts of Africa, and to bring healing internally and with the world. And thanks to terrific partnering with Paw Tracks and Kickstarter every penny of this money will go directly to this vision. Anyone who pays at least $50 will receive one of the CD's from Josh's concert and trip.

Oh wow. Yeah that is sketchy, I wonder if that charity has seen a dime.

i've heard the "used kickstarter $ to pay for drugs" story before but never attached to a big band.

And here I was hating Animal Collective just based on their music.

That really is fucked up. Almost three years without receiving what you paid for? That thing is never coming...

What a massive massive cockend.

Amanda Palmer starting to look pretty good, huh? At least she delivers.

This is when that AC dude was on walkabout from the band while the group blew up, right? Maybe it was a Kickstarter to get him to rehab. How long until that happens?

Ah, well, a lot of assumptions being made. There are private donor-only updates as late as mid-2011. I don't know the story and I'm not so interested in playing Animal Rescue but if the guy has a drug problem he has my sympathies and I'd contribute to a rehab fund almost certainly

That's still a year ago, Owen. I dunno, maybe there is some mitigating circumstance, but I'm struggling to think of what it would be. I think it's pretty much fair enough that if a label decided to pay travel money they swap to those donations being to charity instead, but it's not fair enough to donate for a CD of music made over there and to receive nothing at all.

http://whatbettyknows.com/2012/09/13/why-i-volunteered-to-play-with-amanda-palmer/

Still super surprised this story isn't gaining much traction though.

anco thing is classic, he's just operating in a long tradition of con men, only thing that would make it better is if mali weren't a real country

whereas the palmer thing is horrible and annoying in a sign of the times way, like she coulda just avoided all this trouble by calling it a 'band internship' and offering college credit

That would have been far more repulsive to me, dude.

they know she tweets a lot (as does Gaga, but AP’s tweeting is several orders of magnitude more)

uh

"Band goes to record in Mali. Shame they forgot the songs." Classic rock review trope imo

Nice to see the Dylan Carlson solo jawn got fully funded on Kickstarter at least.

More conspiracy theory about Palmer, Gaiman, and Scientology: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/05/amanda_palmer_dramatically_answers_some_doubters_about_her_connection_to_scientology.php

And still more:
https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/amanda-palmers-sea-org-scientology-connections.102233/

She's naked, it must be art.

that why we protest link is demented bullshit

Palmer's latest response

Amanda Palmer OTM.

Amanda Palmer sitting on a pile of money and enjoying the privilege, more like. She has the right to set up any model she wants; anyone who plays with her is an idiot, and I would not be surprised if the pool of willing suckers started shrinking rapidly.

http://imageshack.us/a/img692/816/berneydidnotreadw.gif

I admire how she's willing to go into this stuff at length - she also posted a fairly detailed breakdown of where all the Kickstarter money would go. Whether or not you like her or buy her argument, there's nothing stopping her from ignoring it or brushing it off in a tweet. People are getting way too pissy about this imo.

yeah, i'm not super enamoured of her "so we decided that in some places like new york we'd pay for professionals but where we could get good fans to do it for free we'd go for that" but the post is a long and considered response that sites the decision in her own history as a musician (as she sees it), and, you know, the straightforwardness is good.

The fact that she does a ton of stuff for free over the years and, for most of her career, hasn't had much cash should play into this.

(WCC, I'm 12 hours late but I didn't mean to "slag off who a woman is married to" - Gaiman gets wheeled out to sing badly and awkwardly as part of the Amanda Palmer roadshow for ironic fan lols, or so it seems, which I find kinda embarrassing for everyone concerned, but if they're both having fun and the fans too it's none of my business. You'll probably say it's sexist to be embarrassed, like maybe I think it's automatically demeaning whenever a man joins in with his wife's job or passions, but really I just think the schtick is wearing thin in this one particular case and I hope I would think that no matter what the gender roles)

But, to continue being late, video of yourself being onstage and sounding competent does sound a pretty big ask (I hate that phrase) to me though for someone who is not a professional musician or a conservatory student. If you are even at the level of playing your viola onstage regularly in yr local rock band scene - which seems like it should be about the top level you can expect for an unpaid volunteer - then sure there are probably videos of you onstage but they probably also sound like digicam-mic'ed ass and have your viola part completely inaudible

The 99% Invisible podcast just raked in $170,000 on their Kickstarter (400% of their goal) and then immediately started asking for unpaid interns. I guess this is the new thing.

http://io9.com/5855635/watch-neil-gaiman-amanda-palmer-moby-and-stephen-merritt-sing-rocky-horror

The fact that these unpaid musicians have to back up Jherek's own set, and that Jherek himself is responsible for wangling those players... like I want to send Jherek a care package or something that is some shady practice.

AP's assertion:

the minute YOU make black and white rules about how other artists should value their own art and time, you disempower them.

is totally OTM, but it's an argument for the prosecution.

Free Jherek

Owen's comment on the piece is worth reading; it's the second one.

xpost She trotted out Gaiman for one novelty tour, and I believe in a recent interview with her - AVClub? - she said she's not going to do it again.

Well, it's all the points I made in this thread (minus yesterday's food poisoning, general biliousness) (plus a couple of genuine positive feelings that I leave out round here)

Which piece is the comment on?

Owen, I hope she responds to you. I bet she does. I think, for better or for worse, her transparency works in her favor, even when folks disagree.

I think after all of these "some of your friends are already this fucked" sorts of Albini-y debates, most people still have no idea of the real costs of recording, touring, publishing, whatever, and have no idea what a pretty prominent artists like Palmer actually pulls in. Or the costs, time, effort, etc. to even get to a level like Palmer's. I'm finding the whole discussion as educational as anyone.

It's funny, I don't really care about her hypocrisy so much as the horrible logic she uses to defend it. She loves the glorious experience of mingling with fans while they give her food and perform with her on stage? Great! But what the fuck does that have to do with NOT PAYING THEM?

the food thing is fucking unreal

I wish I could afford to donate to dozens of my favorite artists, if they ever came asking.

Can't she just say "hey i'm really lucky to have a fan base that loves to spend money, cook food and perform on stage with me. what a life of riley i have" instead of going on about her artistic freedom?

I gave a package of gummi bears to the Dead Milkmen back in 1993.

And a tie to the drummer from Skankin' Pickle ('96)

Just writing that down for tax purposes.

Kind of lolling at how AP has effectively removed the middleman and gone straight to having fans make food for her, that is gangsta

I think the two may be intertwined in her conception/business model. She recognizes that her fans support her artistic freedom, and they in turn value her artistic freedom enough to shell out to support her.

none of this has anything to do with "artistic freedom"

It just says a lot to me about the difference between people's expectations of ~what touring is like~ based on rock biogs and rockumentaries etc. and the actual experience of scrabbling from gig to gig without Tour Support and trying to get fed, even when you're on a major label tour, that stuff doesn't trickle down to support bands.

(It's always eye-opening to see which ~big stars~ as headlining bands make sure their support acts get a slice of the catering and which ones don't. My estimation for Kathleen Hanna went up 100x when she brought round a platter of their food into our dressing room. Things like that do make a difference. As compared to which bands actually make you pay a buy-on to get onto the tour in the first place, oh boy don't get me started...)

(I don't begrudge her that or anything, it's just hilarious and does speak very directly to her viewpoint)

She might as well go whole hog and start issuing stock

Giving a musician a place to crash or a meal is one thing: expecting to be paid for your other music while "fans" support you with their musical efforts for free is entirely another. It's an elitist, classist exploitative model that would even piss me off a little if she were an extraordinary talent. As it is...

Nah, Bowie's already done that.

Money=artistic freedom.

My estimation for Kathleen Hanna went up 100x when she brought round a platter of their food into our dressing room.

I know the little things count, but this was a pretty modest expenditure on her part magnified by the fact that it comes from someone famous and the fact that many people wouldn't do half as much, however modest.

The Bowie stock worked out really well for him, didn't it? I think he was able to leverage sales/transfer of that stuff for a bunch of cash.

there are worse things for people to spend money on than rock cabaret and worse ways to get money than begging fans of your rock cabaret, but christ just admit you're taking rock cabaret fans for all they've got

Ween used to print right in their record sleeves that they wanted fans to bring food to their shows

She trotted out Gaiman for one novelty tour, and I believe in a recent interview with her - AVClub? - she said she's not going to do it again.

they did a five-date co-headline tour. occasionally he gets up at her shows to read a poem or talk a song bcz they think it's fun, doubt that's going to stop.

Money=artistic freedom.

Money=economic freedom, this has way more to do with her budgeting priorities than her music

Man I'm glad my touring has been with well-funded choirs, I've basically come out the other side ahead every time I've done one by smart per diem management.

man the BSO must have spent a SHITTON of money on us to bring us to Europe

must have been half a million dollars

I gave a package of gummi bears to the Dead Milkmen back in 1993.

I gave a couple of Tylenol to the drummer from Ned's Atomic Dustbin. I think that's the saddest thing I confessed to here.

also, can i just say the phrase "crowdsource food" is blowing my mind

So Albini has retracted the "is an idiot" stance but describes her Kickstarter breakdown as "a Moebius strip of waste".

he never said "is an idiot" tho

Pretty much everybody on earth has a threshold for how much to indulge an idiot who doesn't know how to conduct herself, and I think Ms Palmer has found her audience's threshold.

i mean you can romney that if you want

let me get this straight, this amanda smith person used kickstarter to raise money and spent it on drugs for robert palmer?

"If your position is that you aren't able to figure out how to do that, that you are forced by your ignorance into pleading for donations and charity work, you are then publicly admitting you are an idiot."-Steve Albini, 1776.

xpost You're thinking of Amanda Jones from the movie "Some Kind of Wonderful," whose boyfriend hung out with James Spader, who dressed like Robert Palmer and did drugs.

New Shellac MP3: "I Built That"

Shellac... mp3? does not compute

they're not THAT cool

lol 1st responder to Owen has no idea what he/she is talking about

I can't speak to vinyl costs... but I do remember when a friends band released a 7" in the early 90's, they paid almost $5/unit then.

fucking REALLY. I released an ungodly # of 7"s in the 90s. if costs had been anywhere near 5/per I wouldn't have released one.

$5/per is totally reasonable in 2012 funky art-piece 7" terms, I'd even go as high as $10/per.

Girl says $100/per. Anybody else still wanna imply an asshole for saying she's "grifty"?

i’ve played a ukulele to hundreds of people on a beach for hours, for free

*imply I'm an asshole

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmzN1p5q2sY

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrvzfwBTLA1qme01j.jpg

i’ve played a ukulele to hundreds of people on a beach for hours, for free. time to die.

xxp to aero yeah, getting vinyl done in the 90s was so cheap even my shitty-ass local band put out a couple of 7"s, and we were able to order so many for so little that I've still got a big box full of them in my attic.

Girl says $100/per. Anybody else still wanna imply an asshole for saying she's "grifty"?

no she doesn't, she says $25 for vinyl + packaging + a handmade arts&crafts piece in each of the four packages, if the orders come to pressing 300 copies each of 4 different singles

If there was someone on the beach playing ukelele for hours, I would happily pay them to stop.

The letter she links to has this interesting bit:

Artists are feeling desperate. I confess, I have found myself giving free performances in order to get ahead and perhaps have something notable to put on my resume. You'd think that this would help, but it doesn't and in fact it's made my position worse. Volunteer opportunities have effectively lead to more volunteer opportunities. Very very seldom have I found it leading to compensating gigs.

I think this is really at the root of all the 'devaluing' talk. If you want to do this cos you like AP, that's great. But if you want to because it's 'good exposure' or you think playing music for free is like interning at a job, then you are really buying a line. Not that anybody here has specifically said such things, but on various comment boards, I see "Oh, you have to pay your dues just like a film intern or whatever" and the person who said that is obviously not a musician.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhaDA7TneL4

The more I think about it, the more I just think it's just kinda weird that you lot are getting so outraged by this woman asking fans to play two songs with her for free, when things like tour buy-ons exist in the world.

it's not that she's asking, its the way she's asking

I don't know if anyone is really outraged, it's good conversation fodder

The AnCo dude anecdote is actually a better outrage target but there's not much to talk about there. Either he's way tardy or the money's gone, both pretty bad, but what are we going to say about that? I mean, other than "never trust a hippie:

After reading that Why We Protest thread, I don't really want to critique this issue any more. FUCKING HELL the awfulness of those people.

For me, it's that she's being entirely inconsistent about it and paying people in bigger cities (and, interestingly, calling some of those people out by name, whereas most of the volunteers are still unnamed).

Also, and this is what isn't clear to me, is one of those two songs a song with Jherek, or are there extra songs the string players are expected to learn for his opening set? Because she pretty clearly states that the string players are expected to play for the opening act as well as her in her most recent response and one thing they wanted to be sure of is that they had the best players they could get given their budget.

Of course, MY response is "spend less on overly ornate merchandise and you can afford the players you're looking for"

https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/amanda-palmers-sea-org-scientology-connections.102233/

http://i.imgur.com/nOauB.jpg

This is what one of the most reputable plants in the country charges to make a 7".

Nobody is presently raising a million bones for their tour buy-on package of awesomeness, wcc. that's the key difference here. everybody already knows that shit is awful. ap is presenting herself as The God Damned Future, when in fact what she's doing is behaving exactly as major labels have forever.

Yeah i do feel like those figures are misleading. $15/CD to manufacture/ship?

she's saying that the super-fancy hardback CDs she's making and posting in a package with a thank-you card cost more than a jewel case mailed standard

(the figures might be bullshit but misrepresenting them is no help)

'The more I think about it, the more I just think it's just kinda weird that you lot are getting so outraged by this woman asking fans to play two songs with her for free, when things like tour buy-ons exist in the world."

agreed.

yeah also there are people starving. how can any other behavior matter at all

I can't believe any one is typing anything in this thread when things like nuclear weapons exist!

How is it grifty when she tells people what they will get for the amount they donate, and then gives them that? (I get how you might think its grifty to get musicians to play for free, i disagree, but I get it at least). I don't really get how people are willing to donate so much for music that is...unspectacular to say the least, but I don't think she's scamming them, unless you take an extremely patronizing view of her fans.

To be fair I think the sentence could be argubly stated:

"'The more I think about it, the more I just think it's just kinda weird that you lot are getting so outraged by this woman asking fans to play two songs with her for free"

Would this be such a thing if she had raised only her stated goal of $100K and not $1.2 million?

as has been amply established, she's asking for audition tapes - she's asking people to prove their worthiness to play for free. it's a shitty look. not because she's a woman. not because the patriarchy. but because it's exploitation.

and asking "what if the people being exploited don't mind but actually enjoy it?" should sort of answer itself, doesn't it?

why people are bothering to defend amanda palmer from critiques of her economic model when human rights are at risk elsewhere?

Who's outraged? I just figure, I'll waste a few hours this morning talking about this w other people i like to read on an internet message board, and when i head out for the day, probably won't think about it ever again.

Would this be such a thing if she had raised only her stated goal of $100K and not $1.2 million?

Not at all, in my opinion.

I asked earlier, because I have no idea how kickstarter works, but can it be set up to simply stop when it hits its stated goal?

Kickstarter take 5% of all the money raised, they have no incentive to stop it.

Open Mics are the new sweatshop.

someone email Yancey, see what he thinks of all of this

I know that Kickstarter allows it, and why it does, I'm asking if they outright disallow limiting fundraising.

How can we dance while the earth is turning...
How can we sleep while the beds are burning...

¥an¢£y

As stated above, it is the fact that this seems a little ambiguous that makes it interesting to discuss. I wasn't completely sure what I thought at first but it raises interesting questions about things that are important to me. I didn't know about the Animal Collective guy before: what he did sounds obviously worse than this but it's too obvious to be worth discussing.

tbh it's not so much that AnCo dude isn't worth discussing as much as it is the discussion is much more likely to be an echo chamber of "wow that sucks, what an asshole"

what he did should really be trumpeted to the heavens

I've also seen pretty much zero on it other than that one kickstarter page. Has anyone asked him about it? Any reputable sources looked into/reported on it? The whole thing seemed more like an obvious fake/con-job to me, I figured pitchfork or whoever looked into it and realized it wasn't him and just dismissed it.