Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

Usually at the beginning. I've run across songs like this many times, and yet I can't think of a one right now. Google has come up with "All along the watchtower" and yeah, that's pretty deceptive. I just know there's a whole slew of them.

I never remember where the downbeat is at the beginning of Blue Swede's version of "Hooked On A Feeling": are they singing "Ooh-ga-ooh-ga-ooh-ga-cha-ga" or "Ga-ooh-ga-ooh-ga-cha-ga-ooh"?

Then there's the weird bridge of "She Said She Said."

Pardon the ignorance but what precisely is a downbeat? Could you give me an example? Say in which part of watchtower does the downbeat occurs?

PS: Hendrix's or Dylan's?

The downbeat is the impulse that occurs at the beginning of a bar in measured music.[3] Its name derives from the downward stroke of the director or conductor's baton at the start of each measure. It frequently carries the strongest accent of the rhythmic cycle.

I don't know enough theory to give real examples, though.

Hendrix: opening guitar suggests one beat, but when other instruments come in you find out it's another. If a song's base rhythm goes, say, ONE-two-three-four, ONE-two-three-four, etc., then it's the one. The strong first beat. But you don't have to know that, to know that the rhythm wasn't the way you thought it would be.

first i come to think of now is for some reason Yo La Tengo - Pass the hatchet, I think I'm goodkind

Mmmh I'm not sure if I understood completely what you meant, but I think I get the main idea. I'll think of something when other examples pop up later on thread and I feel enlightened enough.

Television - Marquee Moon. Always gets me!

Pixies - Dig For Fire
(bassline underpinning the drumless intro; drums come in what feels like a half-beat early, leaving the 1 bassless and the bass riff starting on the offbeat)

I like this trick, so I'm a bit surprised I can't think of more examples right now.

Iggy Pop, "the passenger". In fact, Yo La Tengo perform it here:
http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/03/yo-la-tengo-vid.html
And the drummer gets the downbeat wrong! Ira just smiles.

Mclusky - "The World Loves Us and Is Our Bitch"

^^have a feeling most of this thread will be songs with bass/guitar then drums coming in, but i know there are some other kinds of examples

also, is this really a "trick" most of the time (xxp) or is it just dudes not being able to accent their notes well enough?

The La's - There She Goes used to always get me (I'd always think that low note in the riff was the downbeat, so it would sound like the drums came in too early until you got locked into the new rhythm).

Pyramid Song, sorta, in that sounds like a weird time-signature when it's just a slow, syncopated 4/4.

There's a couple songs where I misinterpreted the downbeat for the longest time, and then later on I'd catch it and hear the song completely differently. This mostly happens when drummer omits the kick drum on the downbeat and uses it on a weaker beat--pretty neat trick. Can't think of any specific examples though.

Voxtrot - Mothers Sisters Daughters and Wives

The reverb sound seems like it's on 1, but it turns out it's on 2.

Casiotone for the Painfully Alone - Holly Hobby

I like this one a lot. The drum intro sounds like it's in an odd time signature or something, but it turns out it's just a cool 12/8 rhythm.

Blue Rondo A La Turk. That's cheating a bit, because it's in 9/8. But it always make s me laugh to hear the Nice's version, where they default to cut time.

also, is this really a "trick" most of the time (xxp) or is it just dudes not being able to accent their notes well enough?
It's intentional.

Blue Rondo A La Turk. That's cheating a bit, because it's in 9/8. But it always make s me laugh to hear the Nice's version, where they default to cut time.

(as yet I can only think of another Pixies track: Bone Machine manages to do this from a 4/4 drum intro by turning out to start each bar on the snare. suspect they have more of these too, plus e.g. Alec Eiffel (?) where the guitar riff is an odd number of beats and the drums are 4/4 so it's like the song keeps turning inside out, not that that counts here)

I feel like with all the offbeat dub stabs and synth riffs which are pretty much obligatory for techno there's gotta be a track which deliberately exploits the listener/DJ-confusing potential.

Regarding intentionality or otherwise, here is one of my favourite ILX posts/confessions ever (see last section):
Grifters: C er D?

Ha.

Another example from Jimi Hendrix is "Fire."

I suppose in some cases it's conceivable that the bandmembers were so used to their own song that they didn't notice how a new listener could misread the beat. (Of course, "intentional" is a conundrum in general.)

Bodysnatchers by Radiohead.

"30 Seconds Over Tokyo" to thread

Bodysnatchers by Radiohead.
That's a great example

Melwyn - 'we all slow down' from farbrausch 64k demo Life Index (>WinXp)
which is "actually a 19/4 beat, just mixed to normal 4/4 form."

Fresh Moods - lifechange

Dr Faustus does this to me everytime I hear it

Underworld - Jumbo
XTC - The Smartest Monkeys

Wow, that Radiohead, you have no idea the downbeat isn't where you think it is until way into the song.

"Tell Me Something Good" most def.

With "Bodysnatchers", are you guys counting each snare as an "&" in a slow-to-moderate 4/4? That kind of works for me.

uhm, not with you on that one. i hear each snare on 2 and 4 as every other rock song, although the intro still puts you off a bit at first

^yep

I mean, your way is the normal way of counting it. But if you look at it the other way, it accounts for the riff and the phrasing in the vocal melody. For the sake of argument, you know.

This is my favorite example in the whole world.

The big chords are easily heard as being on "1" and "3", but they're really on the "and of 2" and "and of 4" (in a few spots, a four-on-the-floor kick/bass pattern appears, to confirm this)

I suppose if you listen regularly to Zouk, you're more likely to expect accents on the offbeats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWE51n6GDcM

Listened again (radiohead)and this time there was no shift, except maybe at the beginning. I guess I got off-track the first time. Huh. Maybe I'll get to the bottom of it later, I gotta go make dinner.

Oops, not "The Smartest Monkeys" -- the XTC song I had in mind was (the vastly superior) "Wake Up"

Actually, another radiohead example would be "Videotape", from the same album. The plodding piano chords from the entire song turn out to be on the off-beat by the end.

I have a friend who can't ever hear Devo's "Satisfaction" on the right beat, because of the odd bass drum hit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I09xjQgMAI

311 thought they were so fucking clever about this that they named their song "Offbeat Bare Ass"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G9-pHd9CyQ

I Don't Remember - Peter Gabriel

Certainly the live version does this, can't remember if the studio version does.

Timbaland, "Give It To Me"

daftendirekt always throws me

Pete Townshend - "Keep on Working" vs. The Kinks - "Set Me Free" - Both songs begin with the same guitar riff, but the downbeats come in at different places so that one riff is actually a kind of inside out version of the other. I knew the Townshend song first, so the Kinks song throws me every time.

The beginning of "Come on Down to My Boat" by Every Mother's Son.

Grateful Dead-the Eleven

Basement Jaxx - Supersonic

downbeat doesn't drop until 1:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrdUsc73baI

'rock your world' has always been weird to me, i want to hear the bass line starting on the other side of the phrase (ie on the 3) even though i know that's not right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrdUsc73baI

Oh goodness, the chorus of "Diamond Dogs" switches the kick to an offbeat and it throws everything off in a strange way.

I also used to hear the intro to "Girl U Want" as having the first beat on the third note of the opening riff (as if the *first* note was on 4). When the drums came in it would confound.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGcKZ2U8FHs&feature=player_embedded

The into to "I Want To Hold Your Hand" gets me every time. Intellectually I know they're echoing the syncopation of the "I can't hide" part, but that's not how I hear it.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

i don't think so, it's just playing a part that doesn't start on the 1, without any kind of rhythm section context to it.

The closest I can get is "pickup note(s)".

Musicians, you are letting me down. Pro Wrestlers would have named this trick right quick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_note

also known as "anacrusis"

But that will just throw you off for less than a bar until you hear that first downbeat. I liked Jordan's explanation about the lack of rhythm section context.

i think it's called "offbeat bare ass"

One time in 1994 I heard "Sabotage" on the wrong beat right when Ill Communication came out and it was awesome, but that never happened again

" lack of rhythm section context."

the rhythmless intro is different from the riff that follows.

like here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPkhhLC1tf8

it's the same in that nirvana example you posted

no they are different
doo doo doo dee doo doo doo dee doo dee doo doo dee doo (in intro)
versus
doo doo doo dee doo doo doo dee doo dee doo doo dee doo doo (in main)
or something like that, might be missing a dee or doo somewhere

You gotta trust me man duck tales is hella math rock.

nah i think you're getting fooled. the riff starts with a pickup note, so the first "doo" is the pickup and the second "doo" is the 1. if you start counting in the right place at the beginning, the riff doesn't change when the bass & drums come in.

The Cars' "Just What I Needed" is like a perfect example of this. You almost have no choice but to count it all wrong until the vocal and the hi-hat come in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hwE0slNd3Y

I look forward to the great duck tales debate going for pages and pages!

it starts off:
doh doo dee da | doh doo dee | duh da dee da | doo dee doo dee

this repeats as the doooo naaaaa naaa noooo part comes underneath

but when the rhythm track comes in:
doh doo dee da | doh doo dee da | duh da dee da | doo dee doo dee

i was talking about the nirvana song!

"You Really Got Me" by the Kinks threw me the first time I heard it, but it's such a memorable and ubiquitous tune that I never had the opportunity to enjoy the effect again...try as I might.

I seem to remember writing an analysis essay of a Mozart sonata that REALLY fucked around with this sort of thing: not only did it give a false impression of the time signature, but the key as well (major for minor, or vice-versa), and the resolution was delayed until well into the first bar-proper. Clever bugger, that Mozart. Beethoven messes with the beat at length in many of his sonatas, but I definitely wasn't paying attention in that class.

I'm always thrown by "Walking on the Moon" by the Police in this regard. There's also a bunch of Genesis songs but I cant think of any examples off the top of my head.

"Walking on the Moon" OTM. That song has absolutely one of the most fucked-up drum parts of any song ever.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

Syncopation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gwbXjHNcwA

'Little Secret' by Passion Pit, just before the second verse

'I'm Coming Out' by Diana Ross is practically built around this idea

'Bone Machine' by the Pixies

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

This is my favorite element of "Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)". I can never keep track of the snare drum!

ahh, I can add one definite example!

"Hands off, she's mine" The Beat.

I have a friend who can't ever hear Devo's "Satisfaction" on the right beat, because of the odd bass drum hit

ARGH! I have never heard this song properly because of precisely this issue! This downbeat thing has long been one of my favourite/most infuriating things about music.

I heard 'Dig for Fire' in the pub on Sunday and got to thinking about the trick again.

More please!

Is She's A Woman one of these?

yeah

Basement Jaxx's "Same Old Show" - the Selecter "On The Radio" sample is used in such an odd way, that it completely throws me off. I also used to get this a lot with techno/hard trance. There was one Dave Clarke track in particular... doh, no use, can't remember it...

Does it go "Barooo Ga!"

I posted a thread about this sort of thing using Vince Guiraldi's "Linus and Lucy" as an example - when I was a kid I thought the downbeat started an eighth note earlier than it does

Never had a problem with "Walking on the Moon", but "Spirits in the Material World" still trips me up from time to time if I hear it wrong. So much emphasis on the off-beat, kick used as a snare.

Besides "Wake Up", XTC also has "Millions" and probably others I can't recall. They seem like the type to do this sort of thing.

The intro to the Cars' "Since You've Gone" also used to get me, though it's pretty obvious once the kick and snare come in.

Basement Jaxx's "Same Old Show" - the Selecter "On The Radio" sample is used in such an odd way, that it completely throws me off. I also used to get this a lot with techno/hard trance. There was one Dave Clarke track in particular... doh, no use, can't remember it...

― mike t-diva, Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:13 AM Bookmark

Probably cause it's in 7/8 time but doesn't really draw attention to the time signature.

This is my favorite element of "Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)". I can never keep track of the snare drum!

― nicegeoff, Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:31 PM Bookmark

co-sign

Oh yea, Millions by XTC always gets me, never comes together in my head until the skippy drum bit comes in.

"single ladies" has a super simple dancehall beat, but the song starts on beat 2 just to fuck with you

The best example of metric ambiguity in The Cars' JWIN isn't at the beginning, its at circa 2:03 in the video posted above by Pancakes. The snare drum flips from 2+4 (typical) to 1+3 (which tends to sound like a displaced 2+4). The protagonist's reference to losing his mind is an obvious motivation for this detail. Play from 1:56 (beginning of third verse) to hear it in context.

"California Girls"!

And also "I Can't Come" by the Snivelling Shits. Which actually does a breakdown and goes back to its introductory guitar riff partway through (in one of the two recordings), just so it can pull the where's-the-downbeat trick again.

The original 12" version of "Blue Monday" starts with beat 3 (the beginning of the budubudubudubudubum bit). On "Substance," the first two beats are there.

Thus Sang Freud is absolutely right about "I Want to Hold Your Hand." And every band that covered it for the six months after it came out thought it started on beat 4. It's kind of hilarious to hear.

"California Girls"!

What?

The Cars ref reminded me of a good one -- "Touch and Go"

Jordan: In addition to starting on the 2 beat, different sections throughout the whole song are going back and forth between starting on the 1 and 3 beats, to the point where it's hard to determine which is which, and the guitar lick seems to treat the 3 as if it were the 1. It's a lot more complex than you are giving credit for.

Actually it isn't. The only thing in the song that's complex is that the end of the bridge ends with a half measure; every time Beyonce sings the word "single", that's the downbeat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu9xx5Ri278

Duh! Duh Duh Duh! (Doh! not yet!) Duh Duh Duh!

^^^^ you are terrible at music, I hope you realize this

Actually it isn't. The only thing in the song that's complex is that the end of the bridge ends with a half measure; every time Beyonce sings the word "single", that's the downbeat.

right (although actually i think the last bar of the bridge, the one where the drums drop out, is 3 beats long. then the drums come back in on the 2, right after she says "single" on the downbeat like you say).

The beat emphasis is weird there but if you count it out, it ends up ending on a 2/4 measure, not a 3/4.

got to disagree dan, the bar where she says "like a ghost i'll be gone" is 3/4 (then the drums come back in on 2 of the next bar).

lots of house does this to me when the 2/4 snares are playing before the bass beat kicks in

near the last climax of 'where you go i go too' by lindstrom. the beat drops out for a while and when the epic synth line fades in i have this simultaneous thing of knowing i'm nodding my head to the wrong beat and knowing where the downbeat is but not really knowing and it takes a second to click.

got to disagree dan, the bar where she says "like a ghost i'll be gone" is 3/4 (then the drums come back in on 2 of the next bar).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mVEGfH4s5g

Nope. Skip to 2:20 and start counting. "Ghost" is on the downbeat of a 4/4 bar. "Gone" is beat 1 of 2/4. "Single" is beat 1 of 4/4. The only way it could fit if "Ghost" kicks off two 3/4 bars in a row; there are six beats between "ghost" and "single".

it's "fun" to keep track of the downbeat during like an autechre song x-post

dan, u crazy. if you starting counting from "ghost" (on beat 1), there are three beats until "single", not two beats. then the drums come back in on beat 2.

oh wait, you must be counting double-time compared to how i'm counting it! if that's true, you're saying the same thing (ie 6 beats how you're counting it = 3 beats the way i'm counting it. not sure how you're fitting 6 beats into a 2/4 bar).

so do you hear the snare drum on beat 4 of a two bar phrase, or on the & of 4? i hear it as the latter.

Dan, I think you are counting beats at twice the speed everyone else is. The way I'm counting it, the claps are 8th notes, in which there are three beats between "ghost" and "single".

haha xps

I just realized my last sentence makes little sense.

"^^^^ you are terrible at music, I hope you realize this"
relax! it is survivor, not limp bizkit.

Jordan made the point I was trying to make re: counting tempo better than I did.

Anyway, the guitar line and the "whoa-oh-OH!" sections and the "now put your hands up!" that appears a couple times all emphasize the 3 more than the 1.

Anyway, the guitar line and the "whoa-oh-OH!" sections and the "now put your hands up!" that appears a couple times all emphasize the 3 more than the 1.

it's true that they come in the middle of the bar instead of starting on the 1. just listen to the drums i guess.

Yeah, not arguing there, they just create some ambiguity until you figure it all out.

kinda hard to hear on tinny computer speakers, but I love the way the bass line inverts on live skull's "mr evil" when the band comes in 1 beat early

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR8YzP-dKbc

this is my white whale btw (michael jackson's rock with you). it starts in a totally clear way (four beats and you're in), but the bassline (and some of the other parts) always makes me want to hear the 1 on what is really beat 3. always have to concentrate, which of pisses me off because it should be a simple pop song.

haha yes the issue here is that I'm counting each clap as a quarter note, not an eighth note, so basically Jordan and I are saying the exact same thing only I'm expressing it as 4/4 + 2/4 and he's expressing it as 3/2

carry on

beatles "got to get you into my life"

that intro has always confused me. the tambourine comes in on the downbeat but there's no way of knowing that until the singing starts two bars later.

Welcome back, fact checking cuz!

thanks!

lots of house does this to me when the 2/4 snares are playing before the bass beat kicks in

ah, I used to enjoy this with electro sometimes, especially since a lot of that stuff is so blocky and grid-like that you can pretty easily will yourself to just keep hearing it the wrong way around (snares on 1 + 3, etc) all the way through, with no great conflict. for some reason I always found it fun to try and do that, then switch back and forth in my head, like you do with one of those drawings that's two things at once -- you know, how fast can your brain flip back and forth from interpreting it the right way to the backward way

Am I right that some of the songs mentioned here don't have a downbeat? Like the Grateful Dead's "The Eleven"?

Do any Grateful Dead songs have a downbeat?

oh and by the way: I think one main place you see this often -- from the early 90s through the present -- is in loopy electronic music, for reasons having to do with the recording process, and the way that "writing" and "production" are the same step. if you're toying with loops or arranging a song and you solo a particular track, you might suddenly hear some rhythm in it that's counter to the rhythm of the whole song (especially with things like fluttery loops or three-step delays or arpeggios, etc.), and that becomes really easy to play with. so I feel like in a lot of (say) early-90s loop-based electronic stuff, you'd get people who'd bring out something like that and then switch the beat around -- and these days you get the same thing from acts like the Field, where there are lots of rushy loops and delays going on that could be placed against the downbeat on whatever rhythm you wanted.

that same tracking process seems like a thing with rock bands, too -- basically anyone who writes/assembles music using a computer is going to be that much more likely to solo one instrument, notice another way it could fall against the rhythm, loop it, think about it, and maybe write a bit into the intro or something that toys with that.

Do any Grateful Dead songs have a downbeat?

― Meade Lex Louis (James Redd and the Blecchs)

As far as the intro to"Just What I Needed," you want to hear the big chord as ONE. I listened to it all the way through several times and tried to count it out and when the downbeat came I knew I was off but my brain immediately corrected so I didn't know how far off. So finally I just backtracked a few seconds and then I was immediately able to tell that the big chord was on FOUR or FOUR,FOUR-AND.

This commercial fools you into thinking that the keyboard part is on the downbeat until the rest of the instruments come in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQwdfhwYdS0

Lennie Tristano - Line Up

http://www.google.com/url?url=http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569458054722392&rct=j&ei=Jd4ES7-mFo7ilAelwvSjDA&sa=X&oi=music_play_track&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CAgQ0wQoADAA&q=lennie+tristano+line+up&usg=AFQjCNH0UyDyrjCBMH_aa_fHfDjbIlHkbQ

I have actually spent YEARS trying to understand all of the faux-shifts in this, and I still can't figure out what's going on from about 1:10 to 1:28

Sparks - Decline and Fall of Me. I also have this happen in my head with a lot of Ethiopian music where, if I concentrate hard enough, the entire mood and context of the song shifts.

Drive My Car intro
Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except For Me And My Monkey intro

"I'm Free" The Who, back and forth verse and chorus are seemingly different downbeats

Devo "Satisfaction" is my favorite one listed here so far.. sooooo disorienting.

relax! it is survivor, not limp bizkit.

I prefer Limp Bizkit to Survivor fwiw.

Re: All Along The Watchtower, I haven't heard it incorrectly in so long, I forgot that this was one of those disorienting intros.. I recall being in 5th or 6th grade and forcing myself to hear it correctly.

The intro of "A Day In The Life" is like this also but only because the fadeout from "Sgt Pepper (reprise)" makes it difficult to hear where the song actually begins.. If you hear the version on "1967-1970" the downbeat is obvious.

"The Impression That I Get" intro, and prolly lots of ska

I always found it fun to try and do that, then switch back and forth in my head, like you do with one of those drawings that's two things at once -- you know, how fast can your brain flip back and forth from interpreting it the right way to the backward way

yeah, i think this is actually a super important musician skill. like if you're playing with someone and they do an intro that you know you're feeling wrong, being able to force your brain to shift to the correct downbeat.

the first note of the tuba bassline is on the & of 1 (or on the 2 if you're counting double time), used to be hard for me to feel it right away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1LlnrL1Jis

still lolling at the double-time confusion, I usually don't do that

switch back and forth in my head
This is very easy to do when listening to reggae.

Metallica - Fight Fire with Fire
Metallica - Battery
Metallica - Blackened

Also: Immortal - Hordes to War, but that's just because it's such a perfect 'Fight Fire with Fire' rip-off.

still lolling at the double-time confusion, I usually don't do that

i think it comes up a lot with dancehall/clave-ish beats. i know different people in my own band count it differently, which can make for the same kind of fun when you try and talk about it.

super important musician skill
You will often hear people say about various cats "he plays all the syncopated stuff, but he knows where the one is at all times."

Also, in Latin music, everybody talks about the clave, but underneath even that is the downbeats, the 1 & 3, which some people call the pulse. In a typical performance, nobody is playing the pulse, maybe nobody is even playing the clave, but everybody knows where it is.

i think it comes up a lot with dancehall/clave-ish beats. i know different people in my own band count it differently, which can make for the same kind of fun when you try and talk about it.
Haha. I've heard this. That some people insist you count it one way and some the other and I figured some of them would be in the same band.

I imagine somebody like an Earl Palmer could just mentally keep clicking a little button and shift from hearing an 8th to a 16th to a 32nd to a 64th note.

the & of 1

This guy says you should think of an "and" as belonging to the beat that comes after instead of the beat that comes before. He says "you have to pick your foot up before you can put it down" or something like that.

I guess it's hard to see the link coloration for "This guy," who is http://www.michaelspiro.com/

Not sure if this counts but the chorus in Pet Shop Boys "King's Cross" comes one beat ahead every time it appears.

...actually I listened again and no, it's not every time, it's "right" the first time. And I think it's two beats, not one.

Beatles - "Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except for Me and My Monkey". Great beat that manages to fool me every time until the "take it easy" part

that's a good one. i managed to listen to the whole first track on Lindström - Where You Go I Go Too once with the beat all syncopated, it was cool

Syncopation rules the nation. You can't get away from it.

'"The Impression That I Get" intro'

Hey how many of you hear
"Never had to, knock on wood"
versus
"Never had to knock on wood"

also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR9d4ESlpHY&feature=player_embedded

Blur - Beetlebum
Van Halen - Panama

Van Halen - Panama

on the ma, right?

The Shaggs, that's taking it to a whole other level.

lots and lotsa dance tunes which fade in

on the ma, right?

Well it's really just the guitar/kick drum intro that fools me but yeah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeMHetUOdYQ

I'm never able to make sense of the beat on Mary Margaret O'Hara's "Not Be Alright". For its duration all I can think about is why I can't make sense of it, and about whether I should be able to identify it as being in 17 / 9 time or whatever, and confusion curdles into disorientation and resentment, and I can't tell whether the nausea is an effect of my experience of the music, or of my awareness of my experience of the music, or of both, and then I conclude (not before time) that it really isn't worth it.

I believe the beginning of Styx's "Too Much Time On My Hands" qualifies for this thread.

Clipse "I'm Good"

a touch of this to Bruce Springsteen "Glory Days"

Alan Parsons likes to do this especially with his instrumentals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td56XAHxLpw

Skip to like 1:30 unless you dig intros

A lot of Aphex Twin songs are like this, off the top of my head "Heliosphan" from SAW 85-92, and the untitled 7th track from his Polygon Window album "Surfing on Sine Waves" does this super hardcore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLJgCHPO0ig

At about 4:22 the snare hits go away and you sort of choose to hear the song as having the downbeat on the snare or the kick.

Phil Collins - In the Air Tonight

up til where the drums kick in that is, after that he isn't fooling anyone

"Cannonball" by the Breeders.

^^^ in the intro, I mean.

other Breeders songs that fool me:
"Invisible Man"
"Glorious"
"No Way"

Metallica-Escape

Part of me thinks techno must be full of these tracks and part of me thinks that they could be hard to find (at least on 12" cuts) what with the tradition of starting with drum intro for easier mixing.

Here's one though: Hardfloor - Strawberry Maze. Another "lone rhythmic bass noise in intro is actually off-beat" entry, but I'm not quite tired of them yet.

The first few times I heard "Elevation" by GTO, I couldn't hear the synth riff on the correct beat so the entrance of the drums 4 bars later was always a surprise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0Fh4M-Its4&feature=related

Small Faces "Afterglow" - no matter how many times I listen to this song (which is fantastic although terribly marred by shitty pseudo-stereo mixing. I would kill for a proper mono mix of this song...) I just cannot figure out what beat it starts on. by the time the drums come in everything is pretty simple, but the intro bars with just the acoustic guitars/singing/percussion is so very WTF

it starts on the & of 3

the downbeat is the second beat of the 4/4 measure. "She Said She Said"'s second section is in 3/4, btw. the technique used in the Beatles' "Everybody's Got Something to Hide" is turning the beat around, where you displace the usual accents in the 4/4 measure, same thing is used in the intro to the Attractions' arrangement of Costello's "This Year's Girl." the funniest example of a well-known critic not knowing this stuff occurs in a review of Al Green's "Call Me" when the writer refers to the "third-beat" emphasis of the Hi Rhythm Band, when in fact the writer is mishearing the eighth notes as quarter notes; the emphasis is just on the downbeat but the writer hears it as "one-two-THREE" when it's actually "one-and-TWO."

it starts on the & of 3

lol ask a drummer... I think its the handclaps that have always thrown me off too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGLKvDEq_Kk&feature=related

Part of me thinks techno must be full of these tracks and part of me thinks that they could be hard to find (at least on 12" cuts) what with the tradition of starting with drum intro for easier mixing.

Here's one though: Hardfloor - Strawberry Maze. Another "lone rhythmic bass noise in intro is actually off-beat" entry, but I'm not quite tired of them yet.

Here's another: Robert Hood - The Rhythm of Vision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07VVf77KVns

that one starts right on the downbeat

Another techno youtube - "What To Do" by Thomas Bangalter, off Trax on da Rox.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyA5WnCfGKc

Doesn't quite match the thread title, starts with a very clear downbeat (your standard kick-hihat-snare-hihat drum-loop), then uses the samples to mess with your perception of where the bar begins. Awesome tune, but can be kind of difficult to dance to if you're thinking too much...

xpost

don't think so - starts on an offbeat ("&") - wait til the kick drum comes in around 1:10

The Robert Hood example does indeed start on a downbeat -- at least, if you count it this way...
http://sites.google.com/site/pnauert/rhood.png
... the kick drum entrance around 1:10 is in phase.

ha yeah, I was going to say, the tricky thing there is that the repetition can make you zone out and miss a beat

yeah, even if it starts on the 2 or something, it definitely does not start on an &

Fido, Your Leash is Too Long

Not a fool you about where the downbeat is example, but an example of something more syncopated and improvised then you would expect and hard to count is Anthony Jackson's bassline on "For The Love Of Money."

ok I believe you about the Robert Hood :)
it still surprises me when the kick drum drops!

Hardfloor - Strawberry Maze. Another "lone rhythmic bass noise in intro is actually off-beat" entry

Er, oops, it came up on random a while ago and I misremembered it (unless there's another mix). Starts with a pattern of stringy stabs an eighth note apart and your brain is like "ok, the second is probably the 1, but maybe the first" but you're actually listening to &2, &4...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUlYtICk8IE

Do not listen if you hate 90s acid techno which doesn't do anything.

you can still start on the downbeat and be fooled by where the downbeat is, iirc tbh

tho i def wasnt fooled by that example

the downbeat is the second beat of the 4/4 measure.

No it isn't!

^^ was gonna say

Led Zep's Black Dog pwns this concept, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9i2fqxSjTI

IIRC it was written specifically to confuse/challenge all the garage band wannabes...

... really?

Never had a problem with "Walking on the Moon", but "Spirits in the Material World" still trips me up from time to time if I hear it wrong. So much emphasis on the off-beat, kick used as a snare.

This just happened to me with "Spirits" for a few seconds....

Sorta kinda in this vein:

Thomas Dolby's "One of Our Submarines" fades up on a vocal loop that sounds like "singmiss singmiss singmiss." Then he starts singing over it "One of our submarines is missing," and you suddenly realize the loop is saying "missing missing missing."

The beginning of "Car Wash" is like this.

Super Furry Animals - Pan Ddaw'r Wawr is a GREAT example of this. Unites the horn-march and the beat for the final chorus too.

Ha came here to say "walking on the moon" and discovered I already had. The Police were buggers for doing this a lot. "Spirits in the Material World" is another one.

"Satisfaction" already mentioned - I don't think I'll ever hear this one properly, afher countless hundreds of listens. By contrast, "All Along The Watchtower" I eventually came to understand, but only after hearing an early, long-unreleased mix without so much disorienting reverb on the percussion.

Faust - "So Far"; its written like a 4/4 jam, but it's actually in 7/4, so each measure kind of flips the beat (I think..not really an expert here). Once you notice it, you can't stop hearing it

new entry - radiohead 'little by little'

Fucking so disorienting ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jdkj5FerdU

... really?

The radio edit of the Who's "You Better, You Bet" still throws me off.

xp listen to more than just the first 10 seconds

I listened to the whole song, it seems very straightforward and predictable in its beat

Okay.. To me that's not a typical intro.. The first count is not the downbeat, and neither is the one after it... It's like 5 counts away, and I can't figure it out without starting the song in the middle and concentrating.

The fourth kickdrum you hear is the downbeat; the previous 3 are pickup notes, basically a 16th note and two 8th notes. Furthermore, the pattern is repeated at the end of every measure, so even if you miss it the first time you hear the song you get calibrated almost immediately.

Am I right that some of the songs mentioned here don't have a downbeat? Like the Grateful Dead's "The Eleven"?

― Mark, Thursday, 19 November 2009 01:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

Do any Grateful Dead songs have a downbeat?

I can't figure out wtf either of these are supposed to mean. I challenge anyone to find any song without a downbeat (that's not an ambient piece or somehow otherwise rhythmless). Everything with a meter has a downbeat.

And on The Eleven, the downbeat is really heavily emphasized on every bar!

There are tracks where it sounds super complicated on first listen but then you realize it isn't, like Green Velvet's "The Stalker".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_fiBk3BH1Q

But the weirdest example of this isn't so much "I don't know where the downbeat is" but more "I don't know where the start of the phrase is" and that's Talking Heads "Once In A Lifetime".

I hear the beginning of each four-bar phrase in different places on the chorus and the verse. "with a BEAUT-iful house.. and a BEAUT-iful wife" -> "letting the DAYS go by".

If the chorus were to have the same 'starting point' as the verses for each four-bar phrase, the weighting would be "let the water hold me DOWN.. water flowing underGROUND" I can't train my ear to hear it this way though.

If Q. = dotted quarter, E. = dotted eighth, and S = sixteenth:

In the Green Velvet, are you hearing Q.-E.-E.-E.-S?If Q. = dotted quarter, E. = dotted eighth, and S = sixteenth:

In the Green Velvet, are you hearing the bassline as Q.-E.-E.-E.-S?

Whoa wtf

lol

XTC - 'Millions' (took me years to realise where the "one" was supposed to be)

Paul Weller - 'Into Tomorrow'

Mentioned a bunch of these on Music Theory thread instead of here because I forgot about this thread.
"Appetite," by Prefab Sprout has a tricky beginning.
"Esto Es El Guaguanco," by Cheo Feliciano has a slick intro with lots of syncopation that tries to throw you off before the song kicks into the regular part. "Gracia Divina," by The Larry Harlow Orchestra featuring Celia Cruz has some syncopation in the middle where you can get lost. Don't know if I mentioned "Across 110th Street," but that can also be a tiny bit challenging to count.

Sorry if I neglected to use Royal Canadian QUEES notation.

One I still can't get is "Your kiss is sweet" Syreeta. The 'movin on/won't lie' bit seems half (or quarter) a beat off. Is it?

solange's "rise" throws me at the end of every verse with a huge accent on the word "rise," which falls on the three, but the accent makes you think they've dropped a couple beats and you're now back on the one, but you aren't, and it takes a couple of bars to figure that out.

That is a great description of what it feels like when you lose count. Like the magician/hypnotist/pickpocket has distracted you and then removed a beat or two during the split second you weren't looking.

At one point I realized, but always have to remind myself, that when you can't figure out the meter it is good to keep counting to a higher number rather then resetting based on a low number such as 3,4,5,6 or even 7 or 8. By the time you hit 12 or 14, 15, 16 you may well figure out if something is in, say 6/8 but with a syncopated part alternating with a less syncopated part, or really in 7/8, or has an alternating structure, a bar of 3/4 then some bars or 4/4 or is just in 4/4 but with the accents all on syncopations.

Michael Jackson 'Rock Your World' is one of these for me. It seems so simple at first, but it's been the subject of some fierce debates about where the start of the phrase is. I know consciously that it starts with a four beat kick drum count-off, and that the word "life" falls on the downbeat, but something about the bassline and the phrasing of everything else makes me want to think that beat 3 is actually the start of each measure. That would make the intro unnecessarily weird though, and add a weird 2/4 bar going into the bridge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1kHeeEMe-s

"perfect stranger" by katy b/magnetic man, at least the version I have, the intro's like a damn magic eye thing as to where the downbeat is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46WSFuvWfuc

That one makes sense to me, there are some crashes on the downbeat (0:28) that confirm that the downbeat is where I thought it was before the main beat comes in. But I know this stuff can be maddeningly subjective.

Oh yeah, this Lorenzo Senni track...I know where I think the downbeat is (basically the first big stab comes in on the "&" of 4), but in a sense it doesn't matter, because the pattern just repeats the whole song. The only clues you get are around the breakdown in the middle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2AEex59eVM

@ sund4r

I have puzzled over "The Stalker", opened it up and made beat-maps to it, and my conclusion it's somewhere between Q.E.E.E.S and Q..E.E.ES, played by hand to be placed squarely in a green velvet pocket

Can somebody talk to me about "Once In A Lifetime" though

Are you not totally hearing 2/4 additions and elisions

Does or does not the synthy-guitar solo at the end feel like it comes in two beats early

I was listening to it. There's definitely a 2/4 addition somewhere prior to the first chorus (presumably at the very beginning of the song?).

Once in a Lifetime is insane, it's in two keys simultaneously

For 'The Stalker', I hear the last note leading up to the downbeat as a triplet (but the two before it as dotted 1/8th notes, like you say, although you can almost hear them all as shuffling triplets...now I kinda want to program it too, to see if it's actually on the grid or not).

That guitar part toward the end of "Once in a Lifetime" does come in before the downbeat but it's not right on the three. Could just be an anacrusis.

Re: 'Once in a Lifetime', I hear it as pretty straight-up. I guess what you're hearing as the downbeat ("DAYS"), I hear as the 3. So each line of the chorus starts on the "&" of 1. Just like the bassline.

But that's basically the same difficulty I have hearing that Michael Jackson song.

Totally disagree about it having a 2/4 before the chorus!

"DAYS" really does not sound like the three to me. I think the bass is on the three.

Count from the beginning, though. There has to be a measure of two somewhere.

Basically the chorus melody follows my favorite clave, five dotted 1/8th notes starting on the first upbeat of the phrase.

The bass is in a two bar loop, where it starts up on the first upbeat of the first bar, then on the downbeat of the second bar. The count makes sense to me from the beginning.

i've alwyas heard it the same way as Jordan, straight up. 'Letting' is on the 2 and 'DAYS' is on the 3.

Would that suggest that the rhythm guitar enters and exits on the three, then?

Yeah, I'm not hearing how "Once In A Lifetime" could be misinterpreted rhythmically.

I think a case could be made that it's polyrhythmic.

There are no abbreviated measures inserted before the verse and the verses/chorus are standard 8-bar constructions; I'm not hearing where people are getting thrown off.

What ciderpress and Jordan and DJP said. Also, there is no 2/4 anywhere in the song. Chris Franz is playing the same 4/4 beat throughout, with no variation. The cymbals and toms are overdubs (that is, they aren't fills played by Franz).

xxp: It's syncopated, yes, with swung meter in the percussion. I don't know that that qualifies as polyrhythmic.

"DAYS" is absolutely on three, if the entire song is in unchanging 4/4. But it feels to my ears as if it's on the one, suggesting single 2/4 bars at the start and end of the chorus. If you parse out the trebly guitar riff on the chorus, it clearly is a pattern that cycles with the downbeat on "days".

I hear "how did I get here?" as a bar of 2, and the final "water flowing under..." as a bar of 2 (with the "...ground" being the downbeat of 4/4 again). I have to really concentrate to beat 4/4 and sing the chorus with "days" on three lol

What is interesting to me btw is that for all the bands that took cues from Talking Heads, very few bands actually came close to their rather insane level of rhythmic complexity. The bass line on "Born Under Punches" (I seem to remember reading that it is a punch-up of Tina and an uncredited session bassist) is the most bizarre and cool bass lines I've come across (and it's always bummed me out that Tina never plays it live the way it occurs on the record)... there's a series of dotted-eighths that descend across the downbeat without hitting the downbeat, it's so cool and nobody writes stuff like that

Honestly I think it's an interesting example of bi-meter. There is no solution. It could go either way. I mean, as mentioned above, the song sounds like it could be in two different keys already, with the bass line implying D-major (or even A-major!) against the Eventide-y high pad stuff holding a Gsus4.

It's syncopated, yes, with swung meter in the percussion. I don't know that that qualifies as polyrhythmic.

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about beat divisions. Was talking about hearing the chorus with "DAYS" and the entry of the rhythm guitar on the one. So, it would be overlapping four-fours if we're saying the bass is on the one also.

That trebly guitar part comes in on '3', yeah, but it ends right on the downbeat of the next verse. I totally get where you're coming from, but hearing 2/4 bars in and out of sections is usually a cue for me that I'm hearing something wrong.

xp

Although this reminds me of an old ILM thread about 'Single Ladies', and that random acapella 3/4 bar right at the end of the bridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_in_a_Lifetime_(Talking_Heads_song)

Oh I said Gsus4 up above but I mean Gsus2add6
Otm about "Single Ladies", that's the other song I hear shifting meters on and can't hear any other way

Oh shit, well there it is lol, explains everything

"Single Ladies" absolutely has a meter shift in it where there's either an extra 2/4 bar or a 3/4 bar at the end of the bridge, depending on how you're subdividing

well i'll be

Brian Eno introduced Fela Kuti's multiple rhythm music style to the band, and during production Eno used a different rhythm count for some members of the group than others, starting on the "3" instead of the "1." It gave the song what Eno called "a funny balance within it. It has really two centers of gravity: their '1' and my '1.'" This rhythm imbalance was exaggerated in the studio, and is present throughout the song. Jerry Harrison developed the synthesizer line and added the Hammond organ climax, taken from the Velvet Underground's "What Goes On".

As the song essentially consisted of a repetitive two-bar groove (with the pattern reversed between the verse and chorus), Eno decided to approach the production by allowing each of the band members to record overdubs of different rhythmic and musical ideas independently of each other, with each member being kept blind to what the others had recorded on tape. In the final mix, Eno faded between these independent ideas at different parts of the song. This is very much in keeping with his production technique of Oblique Strategies.

It's kind of hilarious that Eno did all of that and then mixed the entire thing down into a 4/4 shuffle beat.

Well, I for one very much enjoyed this discussion before we just looked on wikipedia.

haha same

^^truth bomb new borad description etc

We Will Rock You - Queen
Is it just me or does the accent on the down beat that is so prominent at the beginning fade away as the song progresses? I think the transition is most noticeable when the guitar comes in.

Aphex Twin "Schottkey 7th Path" – the bass drum sounding thing is on the offbeat, right?

you mean the persistent quarter note part? because i definitely hear that on the downbeat. where do you hear the synth part starting?

a few songs come to mind that may or may not fit this thread:

"Hold On To Your Genre" - Les Savy Fav, the way the drums come in, it takes a while to tell the snare is on the back beat
"Disko" - Komeda, down beat seems to change around :30
"Return The Gift" - Gang of Four, intro kind of fakes you out until drums come in
"You Hit The Nail On The Head" - Funkadelic, just a generally tricky groove during the intro

The "Meet you all the way" part of "Rosanna" by Toto

so many john lee hooker solo songs. he taps out an accent-free beat with his foot, starts lines wherever/whenever he feels like starting 'em, improvises as he goes, is awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwlg3m-7N64

Yeah, I think maybe that it's not just that he starts lines wherever he wants, improvising as he goes, but that there are also some "irregular" metric tendencies inherent in his music that are just not easy to understand or hear?

The second song on the video - It's a triple meter until he gets to the guitar line at 2:52. That line, to me, suggests an extension. He deliberately extended the bar for one beat.

The passage shortly after that I can't figure out at all.

You know, "Price Tag" by Sleater Kinney. Lots of weird meter stuff going on at the start of this one.

Kind of a war between 4/4 and 3/4, where 4/4 wins.

I don't know, fcc, maybe you're right. If I listen to "Drifter" from Hooker 'n Heat, they seem to be putting the downbeats wherever they want them. I don't where he's putting them, though, sometimes, and he seems to know.

Steely Dan, Bodhisattva.

I have friends in a cover band who have struggled with Once in a Lifetime, because no one can agree where the "one" is. Same with Zep's "Black Dog" (which to be fair was designed to mess people up).

(xp) oh yeah, i don't doubt that hooker knows where his 1 is, i just think his style is super idiosyncratic, very possibly born of improvisation, and he adds or drop beats without appearing to worry about it, as if the 1 at any given moment is wherever he says it is. supposedly he was recorded solo in his early years because other musicians couldn't figure out how to accompany him.

Small Faces "Afterglow" intro always throws me

you mean the persistent quarter note part? because i definitely hear that on the downbeat. where do you hear the synth part starting?

e, e-d#, d#-a#, e, e-d#-d#

the first e is on the downbeat to my ears. i can't hear it any other way but i think i'm wrong!!

Zep's "Black Dog" (which to be fair was designed to mess people up)

the first time you try to play "black dog" is always a strange and fun moment.

Even weirder are Bonham's stick clicks, which allegedly were there to help everyone know where to come in. But they're inconsistent, and don't clear anything up.

Late to this party, but "Once in a Lifetime" absolutely has a bar of two in "Letting the..." and then the "DAYS go by" and "FLOW-ing underground" are on the one. They wouldn't keep the accented notes on the three would they? You see the same thing in "Hey Ya" during "...and this i KNOW for SURE."

They wouldn't keep the accented notes on the three would they?

Sure they would. "Days" and "FLOWing" are on 3 in their respective measures.

The trick with that one is, again, deciding where the one is. Bassists/drummers/vocalists might not agree.

I think years of singing choral music and living with the rubato inherent in that discipline, which is often necessary to both convey emotion and to allow the chorus time to breathe before a big phrase, has inured me to a lot of the rhythmic complexities identified on this thread.

Like Black Dog for example, I have zero problems finding the downbeat in that song; just listen to the drum and know that Plant's sections in the verse are in a freer tempo than the instruments and the instrumental interludes in the verses have three eighth note pickups at the beginning and you're golden.

Now that I read that back, I have an overwhelming urge to call myself a dick.

"Days" and "FLOWing" are on 3 in their respective measures.

I don't believe that's what the article says. There is no overall one, only ones in different spots for different players.

was clicking my fingers along to pointer sisters' sesame street "12", 2 year old son sat on lap and got lost.
which doesn't happen when i don't click my fingers.

I don't believe that's what the article says. There is no overall one, only ones in different spots for different players.

That's the way it was recorded but, when mixed down, it falls into a clear, easy-to-understand 4/4 that lines up across all of the components. I really don't hear how it can confuse any listener as to where the downbeat is no matter how many times I play it.

DJP otm all the way.

The note choices for 'DAYS go by' just don't make sense to me as starting on the 1, if you take out what you're thinking of as pickups.

That's the way it was recorded but, when mixed down, it falls into a clear, easy-to-understand 4/4 that lines up across all of the components. I really don't hear how it can confuse any listener as to where the downbeat is no matter how many times I play it.

yeah, this thread made me wonder so I listened to it attentively and I don't really hear the problem with the downbeat either.

DJP otm baffled you guys are still arguing about this

Listening to it now, the 1 is easy to follow by listening to the snare, but it discombobulates by starting the chorus on the 3 and going back to the verse on the 1, emphasising the disorientating nature of the moment of clarity I guess.

noooooooo

hahahahahahahaha Jordan

try this as a guide to where the phrase is -- the tom hit is always on the "&" of 4 (switches to every other bar in the chorus, but is always in the same place, leads into the 1).

can we talk about another song for awhile or something, jfc

the time signature in this one always gets me, even though I don't think it's hard to discern where the 1 is exactly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yxbOsUtYNQ

For years, I had problems parsing where the downbeat in "Think Fast" by Meat Beat Manifesto was until the second half of the first verse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkuKYKLJrX4

Now I hear it within the first few measures but that initial snare roll from the drum loop still throws me a little.

those both feel pretty natural to me, as James Brown-type displaced backbeat beats (i get it though).

here's one i have to really concentrate on to feel correctly until it becomes more evident later on. for me the danger is feel the kick drum on the upbeats, and the syncopated low tom part on the downbeats, but it has to be the reverse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmLKGemM6_8

ooh that's a good one

hmm, the randomer one seems natural and instinctive to me, since the basic loop has clear accents on the 2 and 4.

Even weirder are Bonham's stick clicks, which allegedly were there to help everyone know where to come in. But they're inconsistent, and don't clear anything up.

Yes, they make it murderously difficult to play along. However, that's probably because, per Jimmy Page, "We tried to eliminate most of them, but muting was much more difficult in those days than it is now."

There are some really confusing turnarounds in the chorus to Locomotive by GNR:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=locamotive+guns+roses

The combination of drum films and Axl singing over the measure is really weird. The first time it happens is around 2:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOH2mE9UFSI

"shoki" is the only song that came to mind for me

Japan's cover of 'Ain't That Peculiar' has me searching for the one more times than a character in George Clinton's funk universe.

Like Black Dog for example, I have zero problems finding the downbeat in that song; just listen to the drum and know that Plant's sections in the verse are in a freer tempo than the instruments and the instrumental interludes in the verses have three eighth note pickups at the beginning and you're golden.

Come on, the rubato in the a capella vocal parts isn't what makes this hard to count. I'm not even sure that transcription really gets at how the metre is accented. The drums and guitar and both playing eighths on the first five eighth notes. Snare hits (and agogic accents in the guitar line) appear on the C on beat 2 of m. 18 (by his transcription) and the C on beat 3 of m. 19, with a bass drum hit on the first beat of the m. 19. It almost feels like a bar of 5.

Apparently Charlie Watts was fooled about where the downbeat was here -- he doesn't get on track until the second verse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSGk3LeM56E

when mixed down, it falls into a clear, easy-to-understand 4/4

You asserted this before, but I don't know where you're getting the information. The article clearly states that the song was recorded with some players being told the one was in one place and others being told it was in a different place. It says nothing about this being altered in the mix.

The note choices for 'DAYS go by' just don't make sense to me as starting on the 1

Because it's a non-chord tone? I think it's just a neighbor tone going from scale degree one to three.

There's also an agogic accent on that note.

If you're referencing that wiki, that was just for the construction of the groove, and the vocal melody was written on top of it later on.

To my ears it would be both overly complex/awkward and kinda square if that's where the 1 was. It just makes perfect sense as the 3.

I don't agree. Hearing "Days" on the three means the vocal melody starts on the and of one and has continuous agogic accents on the three. Hearing "Days" on the one means there's a beat and a half pickup.

that was just for the construction of the groove, and the vocal melody was written on top of it later on.

A groove that's polyrhythmic and for which the singer undoubtedly chose one or the two possible downbeats.

one OF the two possible downbeats

the singer undoubtedly chose one or the two possible downbeats

yes, this. and i would argue that once he made that choice, he basically defined it for everybody else, especially we listeners, since it's only natural to follow him. his accents in both the verse (FIND) and chorus (DAYS) communicate that downbeat clearly to me. it is definitely a little weird (and unsettling and cool) in the first verse because of what the rhythm section is doing, but if you start at the first chorus and count from there, with "days" at your downbeat, the rest of the song snaps into place, with no need to add 2/4 bars anywhere, and it seems obvious to me in the exact opposite way it feels obvious to DJP, with the percussion simply playing an inverted rhythm on the verses.

then again, maybe it isn't the singer who gets to make the final choice of two possible downbeats. maybe it's us, and maybe we are all very obviously and equally right.

to me, the bass is very obviously marking the first beat of every other (odd-numbered) measure. I start my count from the first occurrence of the bass lick that repeats every 8 beats throughout the entire song

*should say, bass plays same rhythmic pattern all song, obviously there are two different 'licks' tonally
I'm listening to the live version from the second disc of the expanded CD reissue of The Name of this band right now as I write this, but I've heard the song enough times in every imaginable context to feel that this interpretation holds up

listening to the (slightly faster tempo) version from Stop Making Sense now... does it help to count the rhythm if you hear the verse as, essentially, a call-and-response between the bass and the vocal? notice they almost never overlap...

extending my count to the chorus: I think I hear "[rest] letting the" as measure 1 of the chorus, "DAYS" falls ~almost~ on the downbeat of measure 2 and "go" exactly on the accent beat of measure 2? does that sound right?

the Stop Making Sense version settles this issue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGofoH9RDEA

xpost!!

This is approaching "sleep! That's where I'm a viking!" territory

lol.

but if you start at the first chorus and count from there, with "days" at your downbeat, the rest of the song snaps into place, with no need to add 2/4 bars anywhere,

Why wouldn't you start counting at the beginning of the song though? If you need a 2/4 bar to get from the first verse to the chorus the you're hearing it, but then there is no 2/4 bar from the second verse to the second chorus, that should be a tipoff that you're hearing it wrong.

And crut otm that the live version settles it, crashes on the 1 and everything.

I wish I could stand listening to the Talking Heads for long enough to weigh in on this.

haha I was expecting you to be the one dude who could settle this

Let's just get Reply All to make a podcast about this thread and have David Byrne settle it

Nahhhh the Stop Making Sense version is missing the key meter-changing element of the rhythm-guitar chorus addition on the recording. And doesn't the chorus sound weird as a result? like they're forcing it to stay 4/4? The way the rhythm guitar comes blasting in on beat 3 on the chorus is so destabilizing and key and I'm surprised [the tour guitarist] didn't pick up on it

But as I expressed earlier, Tina simplifies her bass parts so extremely on all the live performances that I'm always left disappointed in hearing them (in addition to the disappointment in myself for wasting time listening to Talking Heads)

I stick with the Eno-described "this song has two possible weightings" solution, but if pressed to notate this, there is no real reason to notate this in anything other than straight 4/4. The drums and bass don't change so fuck it

I just listened a couple of times and I think Tarfumes and Jordan OTM. For a danceable groove-oriented tune like this, it seems pretty counterintuitive to not refer to the drums and bass when counting or feeling the beat, and, like you say, they don't change. The way the guitars and vocals play against this is what keeps it interesting but that still requires feeling the basic beat in the first place. It sort of hurts my head to think of the metre shifting in the chorus to put "days" on 1.

I think that's the most I've enjoyed the song btw so thanks ILM!

For a danceable groove-oriented tune like this, it seems pretty counterintuitive to not refer to the drums and bass when counting or feeling the beat

I mean, it's a little different with e.g. Zep songs where the guitars are playing in 3 or 5 or 7 against Bonham's 4, but, in this case, where the vocals and guitars are still clearly in 4 and just accenting beat 3, "4/4 with syncopation" seems like the Occam's razor analysis.

Why wouldn't you start counting at the beginning of the song though? If you need a 2/4 bar to get from the first verse to the chorus the you're hearing it, but then there is no 2/4 bar from the second verse to the second chorus, that should be a tipoff that you're hearing it wrong.

au contraire, that was a tipoff to me that maybe i should re-evaluate how i was hearing the verse. when i start at the beginning of the song, i *do* hear the downbeat in a different place than where i hear it on the chorus. that was my point. but that chorus downbeat makes sense to me in the next verse, and i can then go back to the beginning and hear it that way. i don't think i'm hearing it "wrong" and i don't think you're hearing it "wrong" either. i think the song leaves itself very open to interpretation, as this thread clearly proves.

it feels like we're basically arguing what's the top and what's the bottom of an mc escher staircase.

It's nowhere near as tricky as some of the above, but I've always thought the intro to this otherwise pretty straightforward Clash song was weird:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdkuYVsJ7nM

I think "It's No Good" by Depeche Mode

That Clash one starts on beat 3.

I've often used 'Should I Stay or Should I Go' as a classic example of a drumless riff that starts on an upbeat, so it can be deceptive if you've never heard it before.

It's probably been mentioned already but 'Videotape' by Radiohead - the piano chords are syncopated, but the first chord doesn't fall on the "and" of "one and", it falls on the "and" of "four and" so the chords are always ahead of the beat.

Pyramid Song, sorta, in that sounds like a weird time-signature when it's just a slow, syncopated 4/4.

This one particularly is a funny one, because it has the ability to confuse a person where the "one" is for the duration of the entire song. Unlocking where the one is pulls the entire song into focus and makes the song sound as if it played completely straight.

(I count it like: one two three four five six seven eight, with a swung feel)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jySJWwyO5Vg

^ When this guy plays the pattern, you can hear the 4/4.

'Little by Little' has another syncopation trick, where the main riff sounds as if it should be on the "on" beat but is on the "off" beat instead.

this is a fun one to try to follow:

julie grant "stop"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kz0XOly6l0

this one from bee gees' 1st has always made me a little dizzy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JaUaIEh9F8

I've been trying to figure this one out for a while (the intro into the beginning of the song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfvzo331Pg

Sure, 'cause the piano chords are anticipating the downbeat by a 16th note

“Where Will I Be” by Emmylou Harris is one of these. Check out the released studio version vs either the Spyboy version or the alternate version on the expanded Wrecking Ball. Tricksy downbeat.

This one drives me crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rt5sdsKlYU

Wow, I listened to that Emmylou one and thought I had it, but I was wrong and can't get back to how I heard it the first time. It's all due to that cool beat that Brian Blade is playing (and I checked out the live version, where his brother is on drums and doing a much more straight-forward beat).

In The Air Tonight.

"I'm Free" The Who, back and forth verse and chorus are seemingly different downbeats

― billstevejim, Thursday, November 19, 2009 2:44 AM (nine years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

On 'I'm Free', me and Pete had to play the drums and Keith played the breaks because he couldn't get the intro. He was hearing it differently from how we were, and he couldn't shake it off. So we put down the snare, the hi-hat and the tambourine part and he came in and added all the breaks. When we did it live, the only way to bring him in was for Pete and I to go like this [makes an exaggerated step], which must have looked completely nuts.
— John Entwistle[4]

When they played it live on their 1975-76 tours, Pete phrased the guitar part differently so that the one was easier to discern. No longer did he have to make an exaggerated step to cue Moon for his entrance.

Wow, I listened to that Emmylou one and thought I had it, but I was wrong and can't get back to how I heard it the first time. It's all due to that cool beat that Brian Blade is playing

i love that beat, but that one seems kind of straightforward to me. the opening gtr lick lands on the downbeat, as does the last word of every line in the verse.

It seems obvious now, but I was somehow hearing everything land on the 4, with the whole band leaving out the downbeat, lol.

The beat is very second line-ish, very nice.

I never listened to the Who much but it's cool listening to that track knowing how it was recorded, that's hilarious.

Similarly, the first two minutes of this track by a friend's band always confounds me. The bass doesn't start on the downbeat (I think there's one 8th note of anticipation), and the key is that the snare is actually on the backbeat (with the hi-hat accents on the upbeats), but it totally doesn't feel like that. It doesn't make sense until the heavy part two minutes in.

Apparently the bass player still thinks of it totally differently from the rest of the drummer, and still somehow works live even though they disagree where the downbeat is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SXP6OeDIqk

Sure, 'cause the piano chords are anticipating the downbeat by a 16th note

― change display name (Jordan), Friday, December 28, 2018 1:53 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's what's going on DURING the verse, but I can't hear it in the transition between the intro and the verse, I think maybe the downbeat just shifts

Idk I'm pretty sure it's the same from the beginning, but it's hard to feel since the bassline is so squirrelly too. But I can tap it out and it seems to line up once the percussion comes in.

"Tomorrow is Already Here" by Stereolab does this to me, but it's also in 5/4 which accounts for part of the disorientation.

That one's easy once the maraca comes in pretty much immediately.

It might have been mentioned already but does Roxy Music’s « the bogey man » work here ?
The drums seem pretty tricky.

Bogus Man !

Why Music Experts Are Fighting About Ludacris

The chiming 12-string bridge section of "Stairway To Heaven" is a good example of this, there's another thread that goes into it. This video (warning: dude is annoying af) goes into it if you can stomach watching all the way through:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhlLtd19szw

The Ludacris thing is a very stupid argument because all you need to do to get the answer is listen to the entire song instead of just the chorus

everything theo parrish has ever made

The Ludacris thing, I'm in the third group camp. Sounds like a latin jazz rhythm (muntuno?)

Genesis - "Keep It Dark."

The guitar-only intro sounds like a loping waltz. Then the drums and keys come in, and you realize you've been listening to the off-beats of a 6/4 groove.

The Ludacris thing...yes, it's a weird beat that feels very ungrounded, and the harmonic movement of the horns make you want to feel a downbeat on the & of 1, instead of on 1.

But OF COURSE the drums are in 'half time', and of course the snare is playing backbeats.

yeah i found it easy to hear 2 or 3 possible downbeats at first, but once i locked in on that same understanding -- snare playing backbeats -- it suddenly became impossible for me to hear it any other way.

So crazy to me that I would have definitely lined up the horn phrase with the second note landing on the downbeat, like a square, but Timbaland made a CHOICE.

Had to look it up, Tim used a sample (err... interpolation) of the opening horns & rhythm (tumbai/muntuno) of this Senegal Africando song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiOMHAi4Bto

Good call on Keep it Dark. Glorious Om Riff by Steve Village is syncopated in a similar vein, as is Disko by Komeda.

Woo-Hah by Busta Rhymes? Definitely with Space by Galt McDermott, which provides the sample, it's hard to follow the downbeat all the way through the song.

Heartbeat by Chris & Cosey, just because the 808 clap isn't "supposed to be" on the downbeat.

I’ve never able to follow the meter of this song (maybe that’s just my own failing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXU4P6j3TNY

I didn't follow the Ludacris debate but, listening now, idk why you wouldn't just hear the snare as the backbeat.

the ariana song is a mid-tempo 4/4 with the fingersnaps on 3.

what makes "get well soon" hard to follow is it's heavily syncopated and often there isn't anything on the 1

Ride of the Valkyries. I just discovered the downbeat is not where I always thought it was, and I'm guessing most other people mis-hear it as well. I was watching a Youtube video, and the conductor looked out of time until I realized....whoa. My mind is kind of blown.

I'm very curious about this, because I can't imagine it anywhere else?

Trying to unhear it the way I do and am pondering the string stabs during the main riff?

Here are two ways to hear Ride of the Valkyries, in each the downbeat is capitalized.

1 2 3 1 2 3
1) DUT dadut daaaaa daaaaa DUT dadut daaaaa daaaaa etc.

1 2 3 1 2
2) dut dadut DAAAAA daaaaa dut dadut DAAAAA daaaaa etc.

The first one is how Wagner wrote it. The second is the way I've always heard it.

I'm interested in this phenomenon, especially when you're approaching a dance rig and the first round you hear are the high hats, but because you perceive them out of time they take on an almost ska-like quality 'mm-TSSS-UH mm-TSSS-UH' until you get closer and hear the kick drum and the whole beat switches into place. Any dance producers played on this before?

"Lost In Music" always gives me a little double take, which is part of the pleasure imo - it's like 'the pocket' is so deep in this song, the pocket has a pocket of its own

dl I have "played" on this many times by accidentally lining the records up on the off-beat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSroXhI2uZs

Ahhh, that makes sense re: Valkyries. I've always heard the 1st way but the 2nd way makes sense.

Dog latin - same.

I don't really get the Sister Sledge thing because the beat is so strong. But I have a hard time hearing the intro to Rufus & Chaka 'Tell Me Something Good' correctly, with the wah wah keys on the downbeat and the bass on the upbeat.

catches me off guard every time it finally "snaps into place" on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxZvikbX7RA

I must admit, when I listen to Valkyries, I only hear it Wagner's way-- the chords are also changing on the downbeat

That said, had you asked me to sit down at the piano and play it, prior to "just now", when I rewatched/relistened, I would've absolutely weighted it (and had the chords change) as you've described in your 2nd example, B'wana Beast. Interesting

Also wild to hear how John Williams's whole "heroic" mode contains all these orchestral devices

"No Reply At All" doesn't belong on this thread but having seen "Keep It Dark" mentioned here I relistened to both it the former and, well, the album Abacab slaps

*both it and the former

I think Phil Collins must've been fond of this downbeat trick, because the verses in "Dance on a Volcano" do a similar thing.

I have two of these:

Amazing Journey by The Who - The opening always fools me that the downbeat is on the first chord of each pair, when in fact it is the second chord (one and a half beats later). Daltrey also starts singing on the downbeat, but it doesn't become clear to me until the drums come in. Maybe the backwards feedback over the intro is also misleading.

Mechanical World by Spirit - I only figured out tonight that the downbeat in the verses is on the third hi-hat hit, not the first, which was misleading me completely. The whole song is in straight 4/4 if you count it properly!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Theo's "Bubbles", too

When the drums come in on this one I'm always like "wait a second...":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrWTxRgd4Wk

re: "Lost in Music" - great example!
also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-GcL1Cd5b4

maybe it's because in places it seems like it's a 6/4 measure or the like (extra beats) rather than a normal 4/4.

Albert, is that because the opening fill is a pickup (it starts on three)?

re: opening fills that throw you, David Sylvian has got at least two examples ready - maybe a result of editing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFMa-m-6A3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZjil5x3gaQ

i'm still a bit confused about the Valkyries thing?

oh wait... forget it, i hear it now!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Is this song like "SOS" in that way, starting on the 2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA4a-zuSnQM

almost sounds like the first strum didn't make it into the recording

Yes! Considered that

The intro to SOS feels like it begins on the 2, but if you're going to count straight fours until the vocal comes in right after the 1, then it starts on the 3! Or you could say that the intro drops a beat before the vocal comes in.

There is a great Switched on Pop episode about Charlie Puth's "Boy" that talks about its "downbeat deception." Listen to the first 10 minutes of this:

https://switchedonpop.com/episodes/87-the-pure-pop-of-charlie-puth-carly-rae-ft-hanif-abdurraqib

Here's the song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iILJvqrAQ_w

That's a good one, although the backbeat coming in helpfully lines it up.

Just relistened to that Switched on Pop and if you go to minute 16 they also play a bunch of examples of what they dub downbeat deception:

Ismael Miranda – Recordando
The Beatles – She’s a Woman
Sharon Jones & The Dap Kings – Nobody’s Baby
The Cars – Since You’re Gone
Ludwig van Beethoven – Symphony No 5 in C Minor, I

Is there a thread for rap songs with raps on the off-beat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_QcvPwa-l0

Jane Weaver - Electric Mountain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lcFq7Rtx0M

I've always had major trouble hearing where the 1 is on Missy Elliott's "Get Ur Freak On." Intellectually I know it's on the very first kick drum beat, but unless I force myself to count along from that point, I hear the first three counts as "pickup" and hear the 1 as falling on the actual 4 (this is if I'm counting along at the full 178 bpm as opposed to 89 bpm half-time). In other words, I hear the 1 as falling on the 6th note of the iconic tumbi riff.

(which also falls on the third kick drum hit)