Best Token Mainstream Pop/R&B Single Commonly Appearing in Multiple Indie-Centric, Best-of-Decade Lists *

1 Thing.

for the record i think Don't Stop The Music is sooooo much better than Umbrella.

hahahaha

* most often without acknowledgment to said artists' body of work outside these ubiquitous songs.

^^bears repeating! lots of lists, you'd think these were the only good pop/r&b tracks released in the past 10 years

fwiw only one of these songs is anything close to the best song of its singer's career

http://www.shawnlee.net/

Not sure token is the right word to describe these inclusions. Looking at the Pitchfork and now, Stylus lists, if anything, guitar music is the less dominant/prominent one.

Unless you're saying it's tokenistic to make a list with 80% Top 40 megahits when the LP list is solely indie.

OH WOW I AM SO STOKED THAT WE GET TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION AGAIN.

Voted for Try Again, anyway.

Yeah yeah yeah sorry, realise that this is what most threads on the music board devolve into.

Crazy In Love was my favourite 00s chart hit (apart from Dizzee's 'I Luv U' in the UK)

"Ignition". but it could have been "try again" (except it wasn't released this decade).

Best Token Mainstream Pop/R&B Single Commonly Appearing on ILX.

haha nice idea for a poll!

'try again' is just so perfect.

I like all of these except "Umbrella."

I like all of these except "Since U Been Gone"

i like all except these three -

R. Kelly - Ignition (Remix)
Kylie Minogue - Can't Get You Out of My Head
Outkast - Hey Ya!

CGYOOMH is ok i suppose but so so so overrated and i never want to hear it or read about it ever again

i liked all of thes cept crazy in love

also BOB

Unless you're saying it's tokenistic to make a list with 80% Top 40 megahits when the LP list is solely indie.

I won't take a hard stance on this but, yes, am thinking along these lines.

Looking at the Pitchfork and now, Stylus lists, if anything, guitar music is the less dominant/prominent one.

In the 2000s it's not so much "guitar music" as simply music with the indie "stamp of approval," if you will. Indie-approved dance music (LCD, Daft Punk, Cut Copy, Hot Chip, Junior Boys), indie-approved hip hop (Jay, Outkast, Ghostface, Doom), indie-approved alt-country and country (Wilco, Miranda Lambert), indie-approved sample-based music (Avalanches), indie-approved music with diverse influences not from the US/UK axis (MIA, Animal Collective, TV on the Radio, Studio), indie-approved classic rock and/or influenced music (Dylan, Hold Steady), and then of course dime-a-dozen indie artists that have become revered (Arcade Fire, Interpol, Strokes, Broken Social Scene, Joanna Newsom, Modest Mouse). There is little music that falls outside the self-congratulatory, indie-approved axis that I've outlined.

Which isn't to say this isn't good, interesting, worthy of being "decade's best" music (I like a fair number of the above artists myself) -- just that it's predictable, boring and as set-in-stone into the indie "canon" as classic rock is in the pages of Rolling Stone over the past 25 years.

Wow, that was something of a long rant. Apologies. Back to thread/poll topic. :)

it's a best-of-decade list WHAT DO YOU EXPECT

"self-congratulatory"? Explain.

There is little music that falls outside the self-congratulatory, indie-approved axis that I've outlined.

do you realize you outlined like 10 different genres there

dude, the war has been won. MANY INDIE ROCKERS NOW ENJOY POP MUSIC, AT LEAST SOME OF IT. find something new to complain about.

aaliyah - i care 4 u
amerie - love's off the chain
beyoncé - suga mama
kelly clarkson - never again
missy elliott - whatcha gon do
kelis - stick up
r kelly - feelin' on yo booty (dirty south remix)
kylie minogue - slow
outkast - gasoline dreams
rihanna - haunted
britney spears - before the goodbye
justin timberlake - lovestoned
usher - pop ya collar

^^would rather listen to these songs by those artists

maybe you should not let these lists by indie websites dictate your musical taste then!

are the songs in this poll actually aggregated from real lists or just what you'd assume would be on these pernicious lists?

I might start whining about the Lindstrom tracks I'd rather listen to than I Feel Space.

Also I haven't seen one list with 'Caught Out There' by Kelis, unless it's regarded as a 90s single.

yes! e.g. Another Station... xp

Aaliyah - "Rock the Boat"
Amerie - "Take Country"
Kylie - "Love at First Sight" or "2 Hearts"
Rihanna-The-Dream - "Livin' a Lie" (on my list)
Usher - "U Remind Me" (ditto)

SINCE U BEEN MOTHERFUCKING GONE MOTHERFUCKERS! POW!

Anyway:

Try Again > Crazy In Love > Toxic > Work It > 1 Thing > Get Ur Freak On > Umbrella > Milkshake >> Since U Been Gone >>> My Love >>> Can't Get U Out Of My Head >>>>>> Hey Ya >>>>>> Ignition >>>>>>> Cry me A River >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah

Mad DC more like

are the songs in this poll actually aggregated from real lists or just what you'd assume would be on these pernicious lists?

Loosely aggregated. I looked at Pfork, Stylus, NME, Rolling Stone and a couple others for commonly appearing tracks.

If we're doing this:

(best-to-worst)
Get Ur Freak On
Crazy in Love
Hey Ya!
Try Again
Can't Get You
Milkshake
Toxic
Since U Been Gone
Work It
Ignition
My Love
1 Thing
Umbrella
Yeah!
Cry Me a River

Only really like Since upwards. I also think Paper Planes is of a piece with ilxor's list and that would maybe place below Crazy in Love.

Kinda fucked up that there aren't more rock songs. Why didn't artists similar to Clarkson, like Avril, have a breakthrough with the indie kids?

ones that are way high up on my own decade list: Since U Been Gone, 1 Thing, Toxic

ones that are somewhere in the middle: My Love, Get Ur Freak On, Ignition

ones that would be low on it or not there at all: Crazy In Love, Try Again, Can't Get You Out Of My Head, Cry Me A River

ones that I just don't really like at all: Hey Ya!, Yeah!, Milkshake, Work It, Umbrella

Worst poll on these might have been fun, until "Hey Ya" took it in a walk.

^I think the reason is that Kelly's actually sounds like an indie rock song in some way. Verse could be Interpol, and I can even imagine Paul Banks singing the verse melody. Guitar break is almost surgically extracted from YYY's Maps. Avril, Ashlee, Liz Phair sound much closer to major label alt rock/modern rock radio trends.

Not to say that's undesirable of course!

I also think Paper Planes is of a piece with ilxor's list and that would maybe place below Crazy in Love.

It is, but her two albums are ranking pretty highly in the best-of-decade album polls. Which is to say, she gets respect from indie purists outside of her breakthrough mainstream single. Pfork et al. sang her praises long before "Paper Planes" hit the charts. Good tune, btw.

I could quite easily compile my top 10 of the decade list out of just these songs. Plus The Libertines.

Token indie track!

if artists whose albums appeared on a lot of lists by the same people is an excluding criteria then Missy shouldn't be here

Same could be said for Outkast, which is why I said "most often without acknowledgment" -- there are exceptions. Those three Outkast and Missy songs still seem like token inclusions of their international superhits, though, to me.

yeah, forgot about Outkast. it's a shame, too, like half the artists on here have really good albums that were on my '00s list.

SINCE U BEEN MOTHERFUCKING GONE MOTHERFUCKERS! POW!

I wish I heard what others hear in this song. I like it okay. I get that it's at the intersection of rock, indie rock and pop (at least I think that's part of the appeal). But the big, prosessed-guitar-driven chorus kinda falls flat for me. It's no Umbrella or Crazy In Love, I'll put it that way.

I think it's up there with those in terms of scale of release but it always felt more rote to me and i don't get why elevate it over e.g. 'Just Like A Pill' or indeed 'Sk8r Boi' but that stuff isn't really my bag

Not my bag, either. I'm just trying to readjust to life as a soldier in the defeated army.

dude, the war has been won. MANY INDIE ROCKERS NOW ENJOY POP MUSIC, AT LEAST SOME OF IT. find something new to complain about.

dude wtf this stuff seriously can't be your bag if you think 'just like a pill' is in any way comparable to 'since u been gone' - i loves me some p!nk but 'just like a pill' is just not exciting in the way 'since u been gone' is.

I see them as the same kind of song, even if Since U packs more of a wallop or whatever.

i mean 'just like a pill' is basically 'i swear' by all-4-one speeded up.

i wouldn't describe 'just like a pill' as exciting but i'm not convinced it's an inferior song to SUBG...and surely they are comparable as pop-rock singles. replace with a more exciting P!nk song if you prefer (does that one about getting the party started qualify?).

it's "just a bill"

Sk8 Boi, I see as something completely different though.

a huge amount of female pop hits in the past decade were just slick guitar pop, "Since U Been Gone" was just one of the biggest and best, and if far from the first it at least kind of anticipated the deluge

i mean 'just like a pill' is basically 'i swear' by all-4-one speeded up.

that is soooo more wtf ha

admittedly in my head 'just like a pill' is just the chorus going round and round and round, i just tried to remember the verse but came up with 'bitch' by meredith whatserface.

whereas since u been gone is punk-pop!

i wouldn't describe 'just like a pill' as exciting but i'm not convinced it's an inferior song to SUBG

the clue is in the first part of your own sentence

Fwiw, apart from Since You've Been Gone, what have been the best rock tinged major pop songs of the decade?

1 thing closely followed by ignition (remix) closely followed by yeah!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKyGyXlHS9Y

I Remember, Junior Senoir - Move Your Feet!

youtube link is stuttering, but that's probably my connection's fault. I'll try spotify. Can't believe I'm not familiar with that song..

the best rock tinged major pop songs of the decade

'i'm not okay (i promise)'?

is pop-rock judged primarily on how exciting it sounds? if so i'd be worried

remember back when people actually liked "Hey Ya!"? those were good times

The only songs on here I dislike are "Umbrella" and "Ignition"; "Cry Me A River" and "Toxic" are overrated and the rest are among the best 100 singles of the decade (well okay, maybe not "Yeah").

didn't think Yeah would be getting this much unlove

Did you forget that a significant portion of ILM hates Usher?

i kinda hate him too! but Yeah is a jam

Another variable: I would be happy to dance to all of these tracks, plus UK Funky for that matter, if not to listen to them in my own space.

the best rock tinged major pop songs of the decade

Avril Lavigne - Girlfriend is my favourite. Also About You Now by the Sugababes.

I suppose No Good Advice by Girls Aloud counts as well seeing as there's a big slab of My Sharona in there.

does 'Potential Break-Up Song' count?

pop-rock is surely judged primarily on the effect it has - since u been gone is so strong because it's so exciting, put against it a lot of other pop-rock songs fall down because their own merits aren't as all-conquering as SUBG's great strength.

have you never played top trumps?

Yeah Girlfriend rules, but I don't remember hearing it in any tv show, advert, passing car or popular clothes retailer in the UK. Was it more of a US smash, or a blog-pop style cult thing?

Making a playlist for these other tunes..

c sharp OTM. SYBG's epic fistpumping chorus trumps the efforts of Just Like a Pill or Sk8er Boi.

fwiw "never again", "hole" and "one minute" off kelly c's my december are leagues better than "since u been gone" (which i do really like)

not a single but this might be my actual favourite "rock-tinged pop song" of the decade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPWkrp2O8Ew

Was it more of a US smash

Yeah, it hit #1 here.

The only ones I'll take issue with are...

Kylie Minogue, "Can't Get You Out of My Head" (I like "Love at First Sight" better)
Justin Timberlake, "Cry Me a River" (I like "Rock Your Body" and "Like I Love You" and maybe even "Senorita" better)

"girlfriend" was pretty big here too - no 2, and hung around for ages - though IIRC everything else off that album was a relative flop.

it was fun at the time but nowhere near as good as ashlee's "boyfriend".

Ah I meant Boyfriend for that post upthread. Girlfriend was ubiquitous here!

That last YouTube video has a lot of the Since You Been Gone elements (grrl singer; punk-y vibe/attitude; processed-guitar sound rising in the chorus). Not sure it's as good as SYBG, but it's good.

Come to think of it, that combination of elements seems pretty popular this decade.

ha ok then, "boyfriend" was like...top 20 here, i think, but not big - i didn't hear it until a few months after it hit

"Since U Been Gone" features Kelly's best vocal (that G she shouts at the end of the bridge!), a really great beat anchoring a well-constructed song referencing a lot of indie-pop touchpoints (the comment about the bridge quoting/pastiching "Maps" is totally OTM) and a fantastic narrative. It's a perfect storm of variables that grew into something really special.

In fact, you could say that this "perfect storm" effect happened on each and every one of these songs, explaining why they seemed to leap over genre lines so readily to be embraced by the "indie" (read: critical) set.

Fwiw, apart from Since You've Been Gone, what have been the best rock tinged major pop songs of the decade?

― David Katz (davek_00), Friday, January 8, 2010 11:58 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

big xpost, but:

Christina Aguilera - "Fighter"
Avril Lavigne - "Complicated"
Hilary Duff - "Come Clean"
Pink - "So What"
Ashlee Simpson - "La La"
Demi Lovato - "Don't Forget"
Paris Hilton - "Nothing In This World"
Kelly Clarkson - "Walk Away"
Katy Perry - "Hot N Cold"

Since U Been Gone has by miles the best dancefloor reaction of any of these though just because the chorus is so big. It really does work by the standards of rock music, in a way something like Potential Breakup Song just doesn't.

^good points, but by 'indie set' do you mean the people who write for these online webzines, including a lot of folks here. Or the 'indie' folks you know in real life. None of my friends who ever described/self-identified as indie, had any passion for chartpop, apart from in an ironic way.

That was to Hi Dere ofc. God forbid anyone would attempt to be seen as 'indie'.

*who would

Most of the indie stuff that makes these lists doesn't work by the standards of rock music though, so Kelly Clarkson is automatically one up.

lots of xposts i'll take Gwen's closely related 'What You Waiting For' over all of these personally. also pop-rock high on my 00s track lists (but these were NOT big hits - tho imo could've been - so wouldn't expect them to be anywhere near universal love):

Delays 'Valentine' (indier but would sound great by a LOT of pop girls)
Rachel Stevens 'I Said Never Again...'
Mania 'If You Need A Good Girl' (not 'exciting' per se, but P!nk could've done this well too)
Teddybears STHLM 'Yours To Keep' (so much better than 'About You Now' imo, still like to pretend its The Cardigans)
Margaret Berger 'Mind Game' (really not that exciting ha)

OMG at What You Waiting For! Particularly the Jacques Lu Cont remix, wowowowow

*calm down David*

i may have said this before but i quite liked KC's 'Walk Away' because somehow it kept reminding me of Sisters Of Mercy's 'Dominion' (possible bassline similarity is all)

Off topic, but does anyone remember that Big Brovaz song from around 2001/2. "This is big bro (BRO!)taking over the show (SHOW!).."

cosign some dude's picks except pink, really! (i tried to avoid the katy perry one and pretty much succeeded)

^good points, but by 'indie set' do you mean the people who write for these online webzines, including a lot of folks here. Or the 'indie' folks you know in real life. None of my friends who ever described/self-identified as indie, had any passion for chartpop, apart from in an ironic way.

I believe I've already answered this question via the "(read: critical)" parenthetical aside.

Also this is going to get me laughed off of the thread but that All-American Rejects track "Move Along" is one of my favorite rock songs of the past 5 years, if not the decade; ditto Panic! At The Disco's "I Write Sins Not Tragedies".

sorry, I read that too quickly! yes, indeed.

Off topic, but does anyone remember that Big Brovaz song from around 2001/2. "This is big bro (BRO!)taking over the show (SHOW!).."

yeah, it was shit (tho i fondly remember Tom Ewing's description of it at the time as 'Outkast meets Lionel Bart')

Since U Been Gone has by miles the best dancefloor reaction of any of these though just because the chorus is so big.

i find it pretty difficult to dance to - the verses just sort of lope along (v nicely but not conducive to any decent moves) and then all the chorus is good for is jumping up and down which, ugh, dnw. would much rather dance to "boyfriend" or "potential break-up song".

(also "So What" is great but I much prefer "Get The Party Started", "Don't Let Me Get Me", "Who Knew", "U + Ur Hand", "Stupid Girls", "Sober" and "Please Don't Leave Me")

Also this is going to get me laughed off of the thread but that All-American Rejects track "Move Along" is one of my favorite rock songs of the past 5 years, if not the decade; ditto Panic! At The Disco's "I Write Sins Not Tragedies".

throwin' in Fall Out Boy's 'w.a.m.s.' now (tho maybe it should've been as fast as that P!ATD track)

Dan otm.

also "What You Waiting For" really isn't guitar pop like the stuff i was referring to, although i guess there's a little guitar in the mix. only Gwen solo single that might fit onto all this is "Cool."

i kinda pulled "So What" out of a hat, Pink has several great guitar-driven songs.

the MCR pick up above too

"Dance Dance" is kind of great, too.

It's kind of weird, looking back at my listening habits this decade and realizing it's basically been top 40 rock/pop mixed with dinosaur bands from my teens and MIA/The Knife/Bat For Lashes.

Oh, and Dizzee Rascal.

The only songs on here I dislike are "Umbrella"

Dan, plz to explain this 2 me? I thought u loved Ri Ri 4 alwayz... :'(

There are so many other Kelly songs I'd rather hear over "Since U Been Gone", but then I'm not big on "Maps" either.

I love plenty of All-American Rejects singles, though I prefer "Swing Swing" and "My Paper Heart" to "Move Along". I've only just realized it, but along with Fall Out Boy, they're my favourite pop-rock singles band this decade.

if we're gonna cross over to talking about rock bands with rock radio hits and some pop crossover, that's kind of a different thing (although weirdly some of the All-American Rejects hardest-rocking hits, including "Move Along," never got on any rock charts)

I've never liked "Umbrella"! Like, since day 1 I think I've either avoided threads or said "I really don't get why you all are going gaga over this because 'Pon De Replay' is a million times better".

I feel like the song is all bombast and no heart. Rihanna sounds entirely disconnected both from what she's saying and the music surrounding her, which almost overwhelms her at points (kind of NAGL for a song where she's talking about being emotional protection to someone, but totally in keeping and fantastic in something like "Don't Stop The Music" where she's all about losing herself in the euphoria of dancing). Also, the song itself is just a shade too slow; it seems to be going for some semi-stately mid-tempo but ends up coming across sluggish. Finally, I really really really hate the "ella ella ella ay ay ay" bit.

The video is awesome tho, wau hottie

I think the "ay ay ay" is the part people like best about it.

The video is awesome tho, wau hottie

Something, I assume, everyone can agree on.

Rihanna sounds entirely disconnected both from what she's saying and the music surrounding her, which almost overwhelms her at points

I have that problem with Rihanna generally. Ciara is cooler (as in temperature) than Rihanna, but she sounds committed in ways that Rihanna isn't.

I think the "ay ay ay" is the part people like best about it.

oh really, I never noticed what with everyone quoting it constantly for years

Dan OTM about "Umbrella," always been kind of a nothing song imo

i guess arguably it has the same thing going for it as "1 Thing" where the drums are really prominent, but where that was a really energetic breakbeat, "Umbrella" is such a static, rigid 'funky' beat that I wasn't surprised at all when it turned out to be a GarageBand loop.

In its favor, some of the massive synth sounds are really great.

yeah, but they never gel w/ the rest of the song imo, it almost sounds like a remix that replaced some drums that fit the slow, lumbering tune better.

Oh yeah, you'll get no argument from me on that.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that it worked for a hell of a lot of people.

Rihanna sounds entirely disconnected both from what she's saying and the music surrounding her

I agree, but I also think that's part of the point of "Umbrella," in particular, as opposed to many of Rihanna's other tunes. She comes across as committed to what she's saying/promising in her lyrics, steadfast unwavering, to the point of ignoring any outside forces that might try to affect her commitment (including the maelstrom of the music surrounding her). It's a great juxtaposition, her strength and dedication in the face of adversity, represented by the tune itself at times.

I have that problem with Rihanna generally. Ciara is cooler (as in temperature) than Rihanna, but she sounds committed in ways that Rihanna isn't.

oh this i agree with completely - love rihanna, love "umbrella", but...ciara made "promise", you know? and that song and performance is leagues beyond what rihanna (or to be fair anyone else) has done this decade.

That would work if she wasn't being drowned out by the backing track for half the song, is the thing. I mean, as much as I hate it, Ciara's vocal line in "Promise" is way more message-appropriate and in sync with what the song is trying to convey than what Rihanna is doing on "Umbrella" (ie, singing exactly the same way she always does while the producer cranks the synths up over her).

xp: ha!

Sorry Dan, I was responding to you saying that you "really don't get why you all are going gaga over this", and what I was trying to express was that I think people just like that one little part of the song.

FWIW I think the exuberant, reckless joy in Amerie's vocal line for "1 Thing" is another example of a vocalist taking a song's message and amplifying it; also Beyonce on "Crazy In Love" and "Single Ladies".

xp: I think that more than just "ay ay ay" is working for people in that song, otherwise it wouldn't have been as massive as it was.

xp: ha!

V. serious about my interpretation!

I always though it was spelled "eh eh eh eh," but then again I speak Spanish.

"Umbrella" wouldn't sound right with an exuberant, showy vocal performance on the lines of "1 Thing" or "Crazy in Love" or "Single Ladies," it's supposed to be confident, stoic and unwavering. It's perfect as is.

xpost

I'm going to be Scik Mouthy and say that Umbrella is just way too earbud blowingly loud! But the melody/production choices/sentiments as everyone's said doesn't help it.

I am not actually convinced you are understanding my point.

My point is not that "Umbrella" needs to be as theatrical as any of the songs I listed. My point is that, if the song is meant to show Rihanna as a pillar of strength you can lean on, it would work much better if Rihanna was actually louder than the background track for most of the song; the fact that she sings as if she was distractedly reading a phone book is also a concern but a lesser one in the face of the basic mixing problem the song has.

I always though it was spelled "eh eh eh eh," but then again I speak Canadian.

(btw this detached vulnerability is precisely why I love "Russian Roulette" so much)

if the song is meant to show Rihanna as a pillar of strength you can lean on, it would work much better if Rihanna was actually louder than the background track for most of the song

This makes sense as a personal preference, but I fail to see how putting Rihanna higher in the mix would make the song "work much better" than it does already. I can hear the vocal just fine, btw!

"Don't Stop the Music" as title says everything about Rihanna's ethos.

What all of these songs have in common over something like Senorita or Girlfriend or ugh 'What Are You Waiting For' is that the protagonists sound, y'know, sympathetic - alot of people coming from indie are unlearning a reflex of "this person's concerns say nothing to be about my life" but it is definitely a step too far to hit full-on "this person's concern's are basically hostile to mine".

it's also her best single imo xpost

I say this as someone who, if you took 'Work It' out of this list, would like it a lot more than any top ten I've seen so far - they're all decade top-100 for me without doubt.

alot of people coming from indie are unlearning a reflex of "this person's concerns say nothing to be about my life"

fuck! Morrissey again.

if you took 'Work It' out of this list

:'(

This makes sense as a personal preference, but I fail to see how putting Rihanna higher in the mix would make the song "work much better" than it does already. I can hear the vocal just fine, btw!

It's really a timbre issue. The range she's singing in combine with the filters on the synths, particularly in the chorus where the are most overwhelming, cause the two to blend together. If you did a breakdown of what was really going levelwise Rihanna probably is louder than the backing track but her voice is too similar to the other sounds going on to really stand out all that much; had she been higher in her register or had the synths been reworked to be less buzzy, they wouldn't blur as much.

It's akin to writing a piece for a baritone soloist where the musical arrangement is all tubas, trombones and bassoons; not only do all of those instruments sit in the same tonal space, but the sound quality they put out will overwhelm the singer unless the instruments are really quiet or the baritone is singing really, really high.

I love all of the songs on this list, even "Hey Ya" which I only dislike on some foolish meta level.

Agree with the point about how they're often treated as if the artist concerned never did anything else, with the caveat that write-ups for "single of the decade" tend to lean that way anyway (it looks odd if you start going on about four or five other songs they did as well in a 100 word capsule).

I always have this sense that people who don't get "Can't Get You Out Of My Head" would benefit from some reconditioning program that I would design and implement, as if not getting it is (said patronisingly) "not yr fault and I can help with that." Don't know why I feel that way about this song in particular. I guess I feel quite close to its at-times inexplicable charms.

with the caveat that write-ups for "single of the decade" tend to lean that way anyway (it looks odd if you start going on about four or five other songs they did as well in a 100 word capsule)

Usually these Top X Singles of the Decade lists are accompanied by Top X Albums of the Decade ones, in which the artists mentioned here usually aren't given any sort of placing (Missy and Outkast excepted, as mentioned above). That's more so what I was referring to... as opposed to not discussing the albums/body of work in a Top X Singles blurb.

Well yeah that's spot on.

Of these artists I would have Aaliyah, Missy, Kylie, Kelis, R Kelly, Justin, maybe Kelly C, maybe Britney, maybe maybe Usher on an albums of the decade list.

(Oh yeah and a diff. Outkast though they obv make albums lists...)

Of course lots of great mainstream R&B/pop albums are by artists who never even make the singles lists (e.g. Ashlee).

Well - not so much with R'n'B but with explicit chart pop creations there are generally v.sensible reasons for this! Like, is it being *awfully* rockist to say that it's economically unlikely for Adam Lambert or indeed Kylie to release an "every-song-could-be-your favourite" album - it surely makes more sense for Sony etc to take seven of those songs and give them to artists who need a single?

Like - not to say it doesn't happen! What Would The Neighbours Say is an all-time top two album for me! But GA were in an unusual position at the time of its release - they had a songwriting group who a) had an "albums mentality" and b) basically saw them as their most important clients by far; the point I guess is that this situation is fairly unusual in pop, whereas in indie/hip-hop/dance everyone's "songwriting group" feels this way all the time!

I forgot the first Amerie album - one of my faves.

Kylie's Fever only has I think 3 middling songs on it, it's a brilliant album.

Fever is great. I personally think that X ups the ante, but that's another discussion.

im gonna poll 'fever'

It's really a timbre issue. The range she's singing in combine with the filters on the synths, particularly in the chorus where the are most overwhelming, cause the two to blend together. If you did a breakdown of what was really going levelwise Rihanna probably is louder than the backing track but her voice is too similar to the other sounds going on to really stand out all that much; had she been higher in her register or had the synths been reworked to be less buzzy, they wouldn't blur as much.

It's akin to writing a piece for a baritone soloist where the musical arrangement is all tubas, trombones and bassoons; not only do all of those instruments sit in the same tonal space, but the sound quality they put out will overwhelm the singer unless the instruments are really quiet or the baritone is singing really, really high.

― ah ah oh ooh ooh oh ah ah ah ah ah oh ah ah aha ooh (HI DERE), Saturday, January 9, 2010 2:09 AM (12 hours ago) Bookmark

I actually like this approach w/r/t Umbrella - makes it very Spector-ish and fitting of the song's gravitas

00s albums by these artists that i think count as the decade's elite (as opposed to just good, which most of their albums are) - aaliyah's aaliyah, amerie's all i have, beyoncé's b'day, kelly clarkson's my december, missy's miss e...so addictive and under construction, all of kelis's first three albums, r kelly's tp-2.com, britney's britney and blackout. maybe confessions but i haven't gone back to that in years.

the best kylie album is probably rachel stevens' second one - that is meant to be precisely the slight on kylie that it is. have never, ever rated her as a performer - she's on the exact same level as any other charisma-free chick who happens upon great songs every so often. nothing wrong with that obv but i've never been able to care about HER in any way. fav kylie trax = "slow" and "confide in me" 4eva.

^^^ So wrong.

"Confide in Me"'s definitely in my top 3 or 4.

Kylie's Fever only has I think 3 middling songs on it, it's a brilliant album.

Yes indeed, which is why it made my top twenty.

I like or love all of these songs. Don't know if I can choose.

I voted "Yeah!" but it was a toss-up between that and "1 Thing" really.

I wd like to calmly but vehemently hate on the general premise of the thread title tho.

What all of these songs have in common over something like Senorita or Girlfriend or ugh 'What Are You Waiting For' is that the protagonists sound, y'know, sympathetic - alot of people coming from indie are unlearning a reflex of "this person's concerns say nothing to be about my life" but it is definitely a step too far to hit full-on "this person's concern's are basically hostile to mine".

"what you waiting for?" probably says more to me about my life than any of these songs except "try again"! (not the same as liking it better.) i don't really see how gwen or justin in "señorita" are unsympathetic, and with avril it's sort of the whole comic point and you can't really take it seriously.

Kylie all the way. No competition at all.

(The only one here that I strongly despise would be "1 Thing" though)

Geir, why do you despise it??

nooooooo

Paul McCartney didn't write it in blackface.

It's just occurred to me that Hung Up has not appeared in anywhere near enough 00s lists given what a beast of a dancefloor banker it is.

fav kylie trax = "slow" and "confide in me" 4eva.

You forgot the one with Nick Cave ;)

yeah 'Hung Up' is my favourite 00s Madonna single (not really sayin much tho)

fav kylie trax = "slow" and "confide in me" 4eva.

Mine too.

I actually think what Dan is criticising about Umbrella is what works in its favour, the song itself is actually kind of clunky if you stand back and look at it but the overall sound is like some kind of relentless girlpop tank that just rolls over everything in its path.

You are not supposed to care about Kylie as a performer, or empathise with her lyrics, or anything like that. It's always about the overall package with her - she's canny enough to know her limitations and compensate for them in other ways.

Hmm, I think in some senses you are supposed to care about Kylie as a performer but not on a track-by-track basis - or rather, her songs rarely work that way. In retrospect "making listeners care" was the primary motivation of her Impossible Princess album, and while I loved it at the time I think now those attempts can seem hamfisted and clunky, it's like "yeah Kyles you got issues, we get it". Kylie doesn't need to push this line because her entire career and body of work is always lurking in the background of everything she does, this provides the sense of meaning and import that the track as a construction/performance may appear to lack.

Where I'd agree with and build on Matt's argument is as follows: the correct emotional relationship with pretty much all the best of Kylie's work ("Better The Devil You Know", "Confide In Me", "Can't Get You Out Of My Head", "Love At First Sight", "I Believe In You", "The One") is not one of empathy or care-about-her, but rather direct identification - Kylie is a vacant cipher so that you can inhabit her songs, be the person singing.

And what's interesting about all the songs I just listed is that they are all - to varying extents - about a kind of wish to collapse the space between the desirer (Kylie and Me) and the desired ("You" and You) on the basis of a kind of inadequacy or incompleteness of the former, but also about Kylie's/my entitlement to this, the belief that love at first sight is supposed to happen and deserves to happen.

i.e. it is the opposite of that kind of Morrissey-esque romanticisation of failure, or at any rate the moment prior to it - not "I know it's over" but "it's not over, not over, not over, not over yet!" It is failure - or at the very least any departure from the purity of Kylie's demand for a comingling of identities - which is a necessary precursor to the development of content and character that you can empathise with or care about.

In some ways "The One" is Kylie's ultimate song because it encapsulates this whole vibe so deliberately, esp. the perfection of the chorus: "I'm the one / Love me love me love me love me!"

i believe in you is my kylie song of choice for sure

this list needs more "promise"

regardless of Kylie's alleged vacancy, I like the idea of her actually having done 'Not Over Yet'

Actually after that post I tried to imagine this and I'm not sure it would work - would she be able to be imperious enough?

You are not supposed to care about Kylie as a performer, or empathise with her lyrics, or anything like that.

yeah my point was more that i don't understand how some people very obviously DO care about all these things.

Kylie doesn't need to push this line because her entire career and body of work is always lurking in the background of everything she does, this provides the sense of meaning and import that the track as a construction/performance may appear to lack

i don't get this in the slightest - when kylie reaches greatness it's usually because she's hit on a really well-crafted song, not because she has 20 years of drifting between shrugworthy mediocrity and occasional greatness behind her. in a way it's remarkable not that she's managed to parlay her limitations into a massively successful career but how she's managed to go those 20 years without even coming close to revealing a persona(lity).

Kylie is a vacant cipher so that you can inhabit her songs, be the person singing

i'd agree, and this kind of relationship is hardly common to her, but it's a lot less common in pop/r&b than is often assumed to be the case - i've become wary of the "she's a cipher" argument because it's often brought out to minimise the individuality of the singer in question. i've even read people calling effing AALIYAH a cipher! (idiot SR, obv.) but anyway yeah, kylie is a cipher, and that's precisely what i was arguing - i can't discern anything of her in her material, and when she doesn't have super-strong material the entire edifice collapses easily. hence, not getting why she particularly is the object of affection.

i'd agree, and this kind of relationship is hardly common to her, but it's a lot less common in pop/r&b than is often assumed to be the case

Yes, and this is why it's an interesting thing in Kylie's case. I think this line is over-used because it seems seductively familiar to reforming pop-skeptics.

i've even read people calling effing AALIYAH a cipher! (idiot SR, obv.)

This line actually made a certain (albeit limited, and at times distorted) amount of sense pre-Aaliyah though, I think. I would say that tunes like "One In A Million", "Try Again", "Hot Like Fire" posit Aaliyah's personality as, not blank, but unobtainable, somewhere else or at least somewhere that can't be grasped and held (though not absent), what you see in her (musical) "eyes" is really your own desire for her. This is a very R&B thing (though not typical of R&B, precisely - Aaliyah on these songs pushes it quite far) and can be contrasted with Kylie where the idea is to look out of Kylie's eyes. Two opposite effects, then, but there are certain similarities I would say, at least superficially. Aaliyah obv had some very different, classically emotive material e.g. "I Care 4 U", while stuff like "I Can Be" are all about constructing a very tangible-seeming persona.

and when she doesn't have super-strong material the entire edifice collapses easily. hence, not getting why she particularly is the object of affection.

The first part of this is correct, and it's why I'll never give all kylie a free pass every time because her weak material is just weak. But she's had a lot of super-strong material*, and live she's pretty amazing,

* Add "Shocked", "Put Yourself In My Place", "Your Disco Needs You", "Chocolate" to all of the stuff listed here plus most of Fever.

how she's managed to go those 20 years without even coming close to revealing a persona(lity).

This is wrong though, I think. Impossible Princess is successful in its aims, I just increasingly wonder if those aims ("revealing a persona") are in Kylie's best interests.

The third term (with respect to my Kylie/Aaliyah dichotomy) is pop/R&B which paints a scene, which puts you next to the diva, understanding her position and egging her on - neither an object of desire nor identification, but rather empathy, respect, a kind of emotional solidarity, a desire-to-understand - "Irreplaceable" is the archetypal example of this for me.

Compare that to "One In A Million", which is emotionally devastating but in a very different and unusual way.

Geir, why do you despise it??

Tuneless, repetitive, and extremely annoying drums that are all over the place with seemingly no control. It has everything a good pop song shouldn't and nothing a good pop song should.

i've even read people calling effing AALIYAH a cipher!

I was going to respond to this but Tim pretty much nailed it.

Yeah, but look: Geir's nailing Aaliyah in her coffin!

My favourite Kylie song is "In My Arms" and Tim has expressed a lot that I think about that song - it is endlessly seductive but it's a kind of self-seduction, there's a narcissism embedded even into the sound of it. Narcissism slathered with the sadness of the never attainable. And this is almost the exact same quality I find in Aaliyah's "More than a Woman", foremost but not alone in Aaliyah's work.

I'm really not invested in performers' personality, tho. Maybe that explains my love of emptiness.

Yeah, but look: Geir's nailing Aaliyah in her coffin!

"Try Again" has a lot to it, actually. Surely, the rhythm is a bit annoying and too dominating, but it has kind of a tune, and some really exciting retro synth sounds that would prove to be very influential on 00s music in general. I feel no need to diss that song. Although I prefer Kylie's straight, unsyncopated 4/4-discobeats.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Even though I love it I'm vaguely pleased that "Milkshake" came last. That more than "Hey Ya" even seemed to be the tune where all the indie-centric dudes I know suddenly started saying "you know man, I'm not really into this kind of stuff normally, but this rocks and I can't get it out of my head, those neptunes guys are pretty cool eh" and (esp. my indie-centric work colleagues) singing the chorus like some badge of honour.

it sounds like you're describing "ignition" more than anything else to me

"Yeah!" & "Cry Me a River" getting 1 each = smh

i don't remember anything like that with "milkshake", in fact it might well apply to every other song on this list MORE than "milkshake"

i mean isn't the "critical consensus" that kelis's peak was with her debut, as muse for prime neptunes, and the neps-abandonment/more overtly commercial tasty wasn't so well-received?

Yet more evidence of all of these perceptions coming down to who you speak to.

No indie person I have ever met IRL has ever liked "Ignition" - they all stan for "Milkshake".

Probably also behind why I see all those nice-design-aesthetic funky-not-funky acts as being essentially indie-dance and you don't - we speak to different people so the records get framed differently in our heads.

i mean isn't the "critical consensus" that kelis's peak was with her debut, as muse for prime neptunes, and the neps-abandonment/more overtly commercial tasty wasn't so well-received?

No, I don't think there's ever been a pro-Kaleidoscope critical consensus except, like, on ILM - most critics didn't latch onto The Neptunes until 2001 and Wanderland didn't even get released in the US if I recall, so "Milkshake" was actually the first time lots of critics really enthused over Kelis.

Also remember your own point that indie critics don't listen to whole R&B albums.

oh i always forget that the UK was about the only place where "caught out there" and "good stuff" were genuinely big hits

and wtf r kelly is fetishised by every indie kid everywhere, trapped in the closet even more than "ignition" but def "ignition" as well, everyone knows this!

i remember that one year everyone came back from atp full of "hilarious" tales about watching TITC in their chalets and i pursed my lips so much it was like i had money in my mouth

Yeah, I would wager that there are wide swaths of Americans for whom "Milkshake" is the only Kelis song they know.

Damn right. It's better than yours.

i'd wager that there are wide swathes of british people who remember both "caught out there" and "milkshake" but who haven't realised that they're sung by the same person

"Bossy" was a big hit in the US too (although not nearly as iconic)

I think in Melbourne at least pretty much no indie kids ever ever ever fell for male-vocal R&B aside from JT. Like, not even Usher. Also R Kelly's arrangements (while amazing obv) would not have seemed interesting to that crowd over here I suspect; and his entire appeal would have been too erm performative.

I mean indie kids who watch compulsively watch youtube clips and the like, maybe, but in terms of actual respectability, no way. "Milkshake" was even a hit on our arch-conservative youth radio station JJJ (the one that did the top 100 songs of all time list that had, like, one woman on it) - that has never and will never happen for R Kelly.

I mean, just look at this pretty vile Triple J Hottest 100 List for 2003 (though interestingly "Work It" beat "Milkshake", and "Hey Ya" actually came second):

1. Jet - Are You Gonna Be My Girl?
2. Outkast - Hey Ya!
3. White Stripes - Seven Nation Army
4. Powderfinger - (Baby I’ve Got You) On My Mind
5. Coldplay - Clocks (Royksopp Remix)
6. The Cat Empire - Hello
7. Powderfinger - Sunsets
8. John Butler Trio - Zebra
9. Hilltop Hoods - The Nosebleed Section
10. Powderfinger - Love Your Way
11. Something For Kate - Déjà Vu
12. The Waifs - Lighthouse
13. Dandy Warhols - We Used To Be Friends
14. White Stripes - The Hardest Button To Button
15. Butterfingers - I Love Work
16. Little Birdy - Relapse
17. Jack Johnson - Taylor
18. Ben Harper - Diamonds On The Inside
19. Jet - Roll Over D.J.
20. Pete Murray - Feeler
21. Epicure - Armies Against Me
22. Red Hot Chili Peppers - Fortune Faded
23. Living End - Who's Gonna Save Us?
24. Jack Johnson - The Horizon Has Been Defeated
25. Little Birdy - Baby Blue
26. Frenzal Rhomb - Russell Crowe's Band
27. Ben Folds - There's Always Someone Cooler Than You
28. Electric Six - Danger! High Voltage
29. Ben Harper - With My Own Two Hands
30. Placebo - The Bitter End
31. Muse - Time Is Running Out
32. Dandy Warhols - You Were The Last High
33. Electric Six - Gay Bar
34. Michael Franti/Spearhead - Everyone Deserves
Music
35. Magic Dirt - Plastic Loveless Letter
36. Jane's Addiction - Just Because
37. The Cat Empire - Days Like These
38. Butterfingers - Everytime
39. Alex Lloyd - Coming Home
40. Jack Johnson - Times Like These
41. The Beautiful Girls - Black Bird
42. Muse - Stockholm Syndrome
43. The Strokes - 12:51
44. Hilltop Hoods - Dumb Enough
45. A Perfect Circle - Weak And Powerless
46. The Herd - 77%
47. Michael Franti/Spearhead - Bomb The World
48. Radiohead - There There
49. Radiohead - 2+2=5
50. The Waifs - Fisherman's Daughter
51. John Butler Trio - Sista (Live)
52. The Bens - Just Pretend
53. Blink-182 - Feeling This
54. Xavier Rudd - Let Me Be
55. Missy Higgins - Greed For Your Love
56. NOFX - Franco Un-American
57. Missy Elliott - Work It
58. AFI - The Leaving Song Pt.II
59. Gus & Frank - So Entertaining
60. Magic Dirt - Watch Out Boys
61. Metallica - St. Anger
62. The Beautiful Girls - Music
63. Something For Kate - Song For A Sleepwalker
64. Belle & Sebastian - Step Into My Office, Baby
65. Andromeda - Something White And Sigmund
66. Living End - Tabloid Magazine
67. Amiel - Love Song
68. Butterfly Effect - 1 Second Of Insanity
69. Muse - Hysteria
70. A Perfect Circle - The Outsider
71. AFI - Girls Not Grey
72. Placebo - Running Up That Hill
73. Epicure - Life Sentence
74. Cody Chesnutt - Look Good In Leather
75. Roots/Feat. Cody Chesnutt - The Seed (2.0)
76. Powderfinger - Rockin’ Rocks
77. Powderfinger - Stumblin’
78. Gerling - Who's Ya Daddy?
79. Kelis - Milkshake
80. Benny Benassi Presents The Biz - Satisfaction
81. The Chemical Brothers Featuring The Flaming Lips
- The Golden Path
82. Basement Jaxx - Good Luck
83. The Strokes - Reptilia
84. Chicks On Speed - We Don't Play Guitars
85. Missy Elliott - Pass The Dutch
86. Pete Murray - Lines
87. Junior Senior - Move Your Feet
88. Machine Gun Fellatio - Voices In My Head
89. White Stripes - Girl U Have No Faith In Medicine
90. Offcutts - Break It (Down James Brown)
91. Sleepy Jackson - Vampire Racecourse
92. Gyroscope - Doctor, Doctor
93. White Stripes
- I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself
94. White Stripes - In The Cold, Cold Night
95. Placebo - Special Needs
96. Soggy Bottom Boys - Man Of Constant Sorrow
(Skeewiff Remix)
97. The Darkness - Growing On Me
98. Blur - Out Of Time
99. The Mars Volta - Inertiatic Esp
100. The Cat Empire - The Chariot

AUS indie kids truly are a difft species - that list seems far more rock-based than the USA/GBR equiv would be though? like, jet and metallica and muse and placebo aren't really what i'd think of as indie here - certainly not the sort of indie that has anything to do w/critical consensus

Well yeah JJJ is kinda like the point of indie into lumpenrawkatariat crossover - but it's the indie contingent that pushed Outkast and Kelis and Missy into this list, no way was it the rusted on grunge and metal fans.

Kelis - Milkshake 0

Crazy talk.

Rihanna - Umbrella 8
Kelis - Milkshake 0

God Damn U ILM

all these songs are really good and it was kinda inevitable that one was going to get the short end of the stick