The marriage of indie-rock and contemporary R&B

I figured this deserved its own thread, since it seems like every week there's a new indie-rock release that garners comparisons to contemporary R&B. Last year's Discovery, XX and Dirty Projectors albums were the most prominent examples, and the new Pit Et Pat album is draws even more deliberately from modern R&B than any of those. All are interesting efforts, though to my ears none of these albums quite capture the candied thrills of most of what's on the actual R&B charts. I'm wondering if there are any other indie bands pushing the boundaries farther, trying to replicate the polish and energy of modern R&B without hiding behind artiness.

The marriage of trollers and ILM.

stoked for the madness

Three's a trend.

First post should have been a wedding invitation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3LyBaLYOWU

Ugh, you guys. I think there's an interesting conversation to be had here. I just have nothing to say to it at the moment.

glad i'm not the only one who noticed this with the pit er pat album.

Oh, Contemporary R&B.

I was thinking you meant Plan B or something.

What does "hiding behind artiness" mean?

This is less a marriage and more a dude dressing up in ladies clothes while she's blissfully unaware of his existence.

its a long-long-long distance relationship.

and its based on deceit.

Goes the other way too. "Apologize" by Timbaland showed the Coldplay influence he had been talking about for years.

the thing here is I think a band can signify R&B with a production element or a vocal style or a songwriting approach or a cover choice, but unless they do more than one of the above it's probably not going to be a very prominent element, at least not enough to justify making it that act's marketing hook or critical hot topic. there's a lot of great role models for mixing R&B with rock and more eccentric/esoteric sounds, Prince being chief among them, but I get the impression that a lot of these bands haven't integrated it into their musical DNA that much and kinda want a pat on the back for covering an R&B song or doing something with Timbaland-ish drum patterns or female vocal harmonies.

electrosoul the thread part 2

xpost very otm. these bands are magpie-ish, r&b not a full-time fetish, has to share w/ afro pop&uk funky even.

"i knew tynan delong and you sir..."

I don't think the bands mentioned are even trying that hard to push any R&B resemblances (have not heard Pit Et Pat though). Magpie-ish tendencies are so engrained in indie-rock that they become reflexive.

The Pit Er Pat track that delves furthest into R'n'B territory is called "Water", off the new album The Flexible Entertainer. It's not that there's a serious influence, in fact the PR mentions no such thing, but it's definitely there, especially when compared to their previous stuff which is firmly entrenched in mania/noise/post-rock.

there's a lot of great role models for mixing R&B with rock and more eccentric/esoteric sounds, Prince being chief among them

otm - kind of galling to see the contemporary artists who actually do try to engage with both r&b and rock on both genres' terms, like meshell ndegéocello, get passed over in terms of critical attention

it's definitely becoming a trend among a certain contingent of lo-fi/glo-fi bands. Maybe started by the Gang Gang Dance album from a couple of years ago? I dunno, I keep meaning to give that one a proper listen. Maybe it's something to do with the embracing of melismatic vocals and how they can bounce around unorthodox rhythm patterns a la Dirty Projectors.

Goes the other way too. "Apologize" by Timbaland showed the Coldplay influence he had been talking about for years.
'
It's not a Timbaland song – it's by OneRepublic.

Hey, I understand that that Elvis guy is covering Big Mama Thornton's "Hound Dog"

Big Mama Thornton's betraying the Elvis influence she hadn't got yet.

I get a thousand hugs from a thousand lightning bugs/I smoke the dank nugs/I shop for Persian rugs

― Herodcare for the Unborn (J0hn D.), Saturday, December 26, 2009 11:41 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRj4cL2sNqg

It's not a Timbaland song – it's by OneRepublic.

Well, originally by OneRepublic, then remixed by Timbaland. The main problem with Geir's statement, though, is that Coldplay has never been an "indie rock" band. Maybe "indie" in the UK sense of the word, but no more "indie rock" than Maroon 5, whom we'd otherwise be talking about in this thread.

it's definitely becoming a trend among a certain contingent of lo-fi/glo-fi bands

hm, which ones? (not to snark or anything, it's just not something I'd noticed.)

also, timbaland's coldplay influence had been apparent in his work for years prior to "apologize" (and in any case is just an update of, idk, rappers sampling phil collins in the 90s and probably a ton more antecedents)

I'm wondering if there are any other indie bands pushing the boundaries farther, trying to replicate the polish and energy of modern R&B without hiding behind artiness.

Indie bands usually attempt to be "arty" by their very nature, especially when stealing from genres that aren't indie-approved across the board (see also: afropop). Once you remove the artiness from the indie band, they would theoretically cross the boundary from hip to self-parody, hence what's the point in even trying to be successful? I'm afraid the buck stops here with the good (the xx) and the bad (Dirty Projectors).

Btw, it's [retty easy to tell just from discussions in the xx thread re: their influences that there is something more going on there than "indie meets r&b" -- there must have been 50 different influences/artists cited when trying to describe their sound. Whereas the Dirty Projectors conversation stops at "OMG they are injecting r&b into indie rock"...

Anyway. Just my two cents, you guys can take over now.

somebody please reassure me that we are not allowing "glo-fi" to be a real actual thing

I think there are just one or two worse genre names, and one is its alternative, 'chillwave', so soz bro I think we're stuck.

I think dance music has been influencing indie way more than R&B if the influx of completely useless nitpicking subgenre tags is any indication.

dance music has influenced indie since the days of postpunk and baggy. r'n'b has always been approached a little more cautiously. the two don't make ostensibly natural bedfellows.

i'm really struggling to think of many non-recent examples of modern r'n'b influencing indie - certainly hiphop, dance, afropop but not r'n'b.

I know some postpunk bands circa 81 were likely listening to some r'n'b. A Certain Ratio I bet

Maybe Liquid Liquid too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmIWkiTZ8qM

I hear Usher's influence very clearly in the music of Liquid Liquid and A Certain Ratio.

/sorry couldn't resist./

Rnb before Usher...But since "indie" got called indie---hmmmmm, there's got to be someone--Afghan Whigs and Rebecca Gates from the Spinanes who also did a TLC cover

wasnt this all covered in that reynolds c or d thread? indie bands talk a good game about being influenced by r&b and hip hop (anything urban and oh so cool cos you know these guys are not just corny indie dudes ok etc) but youd have a hard time hearing it in their music, a few examples excepted. and when you can hear it loud and clear, it ends up being hadouken or limp bizkit.

obv not saying durst is 'indie' n/m.

urban should have been in scare quotes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfPUvy3YkGo&feature=related

It's shaping up to be a big 2010 for Neon Indian, just as SPIN predicted. The band is set to make its network television debut this Thursday night, Feb. 11 on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. from a press release

I predict no glo-fi/chillwave covers of the Dream

Btw, it's [retty easy to tell just from discussions in the xx thread re: their influences that there is something more going on there than "indie meets r&b" -- there must have been 50 different influences/artists cited when trying to describe their sound. Whereas the Dirty Projectors conversation stops at "OMG they are injecting r&b into indie rock"...

that's just not accurate when it comes to dirty projectors. I'm not really a fan of theirs, but they're in no way a conventional, standard indie band, and the R&B influence is only really apparent in one song. perhaps the reason few bands are mentioned as obvious influences is that DP really don't sound like too many other artists - I'd bracket them alongside people like kayo dot and extra life...slippery, fragmented, self-consciously arty stuff, high on drama. DP are nowhere near as heavy or intense as those bands, but there's a similar feel.

if anything, I hear them as more strongly influenced by a) progressive rock and b) highlife.

the first le tigre album (1999) mixed rawk electric guitar with a funky alesis sr16 to great effect.

I don't think current Indie Rock and contemporary R&B even have a long term relationship. To me the scenario is like skinny white indie guy and cute black girl talking neverously and smiling awkwardly at a party. They are starting to talk but haven't even kissed yet.

However, in the post punk/post disco era, I feel like that wasn't a marriage but a string of one night stands that created something beautiful through a messy process. (ie Liquid Liquid, New York Garage Scene, PiL, etc.)

actually geir brings up the most important point on this thread - whether coldplay is "indie" or not "indie" notwithstanding - is that R&B and hip hop to a degree is being ruined by indie/corporate "alternative" aesthetics to a degree

....i think rap/hip hop is struggling to cope with the massive decline in sales and money...

the whole "kingpin" aesthetic of being in a suit in your video surrounded by other rappers, your crew, and white character actors that play mafia dudes in movies playing high stakes poker and smoking cigars and shit while some chick in a negligee comes out and opens a briefcase full of money looks more and more ridiculous....

so, i think rappers are going to emulate indie or alt rock (which they probably see incorrectly as "indie" the same way that geir does, ironically), because indie sorta uses some misguided sense of "hipness" to project feelings of superiority over the fact that hey not that many people really dig what you do and you're not rich...

the problem being is that i think there's a lot of bad elements of plodding rhythms and faux-"EPIC" melodic sensibilities that are coming with this stuff...like that new song by sean kingston's protege really bothers me in that way...

i think this stuff is happening way more than a few indie rock bands trying to goose the blog writers by signifying "R&B" in their press releases and doing a couple skittery drum machine patterns.

cf: lil wayne's "rock" album

the whole "kingpin" aesthetic of being in a suit in your video surrounded by other rappers, your crew, and white character actors that play mafia dudes in movies playing high stakes poker and smoking cigars and shit while some chick in a negligee comes out and opens a briefcase full of money looks more and more ridiculous....

so, i think rappers are going to emulate indie or alt rock (which they probably see incorrectly as "indie" the same way that geir does, ironically), because indie sorta uses some misguided sense of "hipness" to project feelings of superiority over the fact that hey not that many people really dig what you do and you're not rich...

this is really interesting. like it isn't going to be that you're too socially conscious or technically difficult for a mass audience anymore. it could be another of rap;s periodical returns to an underground. and see some dude's comments elsewhere about dj burn one mixtape-as-album packaging, album covers, becoming less throwaway and more serious - he made them as a point about crossing over, but i think it's also a way of saying, dl this even though you never heard of me, i'm worth it. i think rappers are dealing in form with the fallout from sales decline so far by pointing to having it locked down regionally, or even on the net (garland's yelawolf/gibbs show is billed "digital icons")

cf sundry boasts about keeping the blogs on fire

wasn't me talking about dj burn one, i have only the vaguest idea who that is

pretty sure it was, tho you wouldn't have to know who he is to do so

no think it was surfboard, sorry

some dudes get misidentified, totally

lol

I don't think current Indie Rock and contemporary R&B even have a long term relationship. To me the scenario is like skinny white indie guy and cute black girl talking neverously and smiling awkwardly at a party. They are starting to talk but haven't even kissed yet.

I agree there aren't all that many indie bands flirting with R&B, and the ones who have haven't taken it very far. But I do think there's a lot of room for potential here. Right now urban radio offers a whole new world of big, sonorous sounds and new grooves indie bands could play with. With a few tweaks, some of these electro-pop groups, for instance, could have this huge, completely updated sound and create something really fresh, instead of just recycling the '80s.

The few bands that have dabbled with R&B, though, have been rewarded with generous (perhaps too generous) press, so I'm wondering if that will encourage more artists to try. Judging by all the indie artists who cited The-Dream in their personal best of 2009 lists, we know at least some of them are actually listening to this stuff.

none of these albums quite capture the candied thrills of most of what's on the actual R&B charts

are the R&B charts that thrilling to anyone right now? cuz to me it feels like it's way worse than almost any point in the 00s

Judging by all the indie artists who cited The-Dream in their personal best of 2009 lists, we know at least some of them are actually listening to one R&B album throughout the entire year, which also happens to be the most obvious, indie-rock-critic accepted of this stuff.

Fixed.

xposts isn't hiphop culture more than just this one-dimensional bling aesthetic though? this "made it" personae is the product of boom times but traditionally hiphop icons have simply adapted during recessions - either coming out as straight off the street gangsters and thugs, or cheerful community-centre breakdance kids.

With a few tweaks, some of these electro-pop groups, for instance, could have this huge, completely updated sound and create something really fresh, instead of just recycling the '80s.

this would entail a lot of hard work and by-committee professional "tampering" that indie bands are above, or don't have the balls to put themselves through (depending on your frame of reference)

another thing: if you are looking for huge, updated sounds, sonorous grooves etc, just listen to R&B. if indie people aren't the ones making those sounds, is it even a problem?

another thing: if you are looking for huge, updated sounds, sonorous grooves etc, just listen to R&B. if indie people aren't the ones making those sounds, is it even a problem?

^

With a few tweaks, some of these electro-pop groups, for instance, could have this huge, completely updated sound and create something really fresh, instead of just recycling the '80s.

Erm, no, it would be the same thing with different backing. So over the idea that 'different synth noises' = omg progress.

ok here's the billboard R&B top 10 songs:

1 It Kills Me - Melanie Fiona - never heard it

2 BedRock - Young Money feat Lloyd - worse than any Shins song, ever

3 Say Ahh - Trey Songz feat Fabolous - heard this once, always love Fab, Trey Songz is a musical nutsack of a person though

4 How Low - Ludacris - haven't heard it, but hey it's Luda in 2010, let's go out on a BIG limb guess it's "okay" with a couple mildly amusing punchlines

5 Try Sleeping With a Broken Heart - Alicia Keys - hmmm, i bet it's a kinda boring ballad

6 I Am - Mary J Blige - i think this is on her cell phone commercial, seemed decent...but you know it's mary so i doubt it's too futuristic but I love her always

7 Say Something - Timbaland/Drake - Timbaland is fat again, Drake is Drake

8 I Invented Sex - Trey Songz/Drake - okay I had to actually seek out this because of the retarded title...actually better than i thought, i like the Dreaminess of the track...still something about Songz make me wish someone would run up in the video and punch him out and steal his chain...actually now i'm on the second verse and Songz is ruining this shit

9 Sex Therapy - Robin Thicke - some quiet storm shit, at least it's not autotuned to death which is kinda refreshing today (or i should say EXPLICITY autotune cuz bet this is actually autotune all over)...anyway...ehh...it's fine.

10 Soldier of Love - Sade - this song is str8 genius, a real dark masterpiece and fucking A it makes everything else in the top 10 look like shit....great great great

So.....um....a Top 10 with three Drake appearances and 2 Trey Songz appearances....

the three most tolerable songs are by Alan Thicke's kid and two ladies that could be Drake's mom.

The future?

listening to melanie fiona now...it's pretty boring but i kinda like that part where the goth choir backing vox come in and she really raises up her voice to spit some gospel type stuff....this is totally okay

With a few tweaks, some of these electro-pop groups, for instance, could have this huge, completely updated sound and create something really fresh, instead of just recycling the '80s.

90s revival's inevitable

that keys track is really amazing m@tt - that + sade + thicke are the keepers for me, which doesn't change your point at all really

xp

lex you are right!

I totally was wrong on the Alicia song! It kinda sounds like a Toto song, or something from the St Elmo's Fire soundtrack...Harold Faltermeyer shit

actually it's pretty cool!

(though it sounds more *actually* 80s pop music than any of these indie groups that supposedly sound 80s)

"Say Ahh" and "How Low" and "Soldier Of Love" and "Try Sleeping" are all great imo, also "I Am" is alright and is not the song in Mary's phone commercial but the follow-up to it.

this "made it" personae is the product of boom times

more useful to think of it as a product of being the best, the product of battle rap, which is the product of competitive live routines. you can be realer, have more skills, be more violent, look better, be richer, whatever: "i'm not stressed out / i'm God, i'm the best out".

xposts isn't hiphop culture more than just this one-dimensional bling aesthetic though? this "made it" personae is the product of boom times but traditionally hiphop icons have simply adapted during recessions - either coming out as straight off the street gangsters and thugs, or cheerful community-centre breakdance kids.

― dog latin, Wednesday, February 10, 2010 4:57 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

also, i don't think there has been a moment ever when hip hop wasn't aspirational from a material sense (at least the dominant culture, not talking about like early 00s backpackers and stuff)

you can say for 75-79 it was more about being known in your borough and maybe beyond, and not adverse to some cash if there's any to be had, much like the graf guys i guess. getting more & off topic here.

i dunno, i just read the part in chang's book about Kool Herc's first ever party and it was basically thrown cuz his sister wanted to figure out a way to get money for new clothes

also, timbaland's coldplay influence had been apparent in his work for years prior to "apologize" (and in any case is just an update of, idk, rappers sampling phil collins in the 90s and probably a ton more antecedents)

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Wednesday, February 10, 2010 2:30 PM (2 hours ago)

just wanna call bs on this line, i don't think sampling something something is the same as being influenced by something, i kinda thought we had that conv. re: get ur phreak on

yeah but wu weren't crossing the ferry roaming the boroughs for ppl to battle in search of riches. the reputational thing persisted, hence the debates post hammer and v ice that we were talking about. the backpackers didn't dream "i'd rather be broke and have a whole lot of respect" out of thin air. xp to m@tt

"I agree there aren't all that many indie bands flirting with R&B, and the ones who have haven't taken it very far."

they're scared to. and they have reason to be. i doubt they'd know how to go about it.

not like my boys The Mood! skinny white boy disco rarely got any better!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdnXjPbEv0s

this would entail a lot of hard work and by-committee professional "tampering" that indie bands are above, or don't have the balls to put themselves through (depending on your frame of reference)

another thing: if you are looking for huge, updated sounds, sonorous grooves etc, just listen to R&B. if indie people aren't the ones making those sounds, is it even a problem?

Goole, I think you kind of nailed it. Indie bands would have to work with, at the very least, an outsider producer given more control than they're accustomed to. And I don't think any have the budget to hire Stargate. I think it would yield real fruit, though, if any actually tried it.

I don't think the dearth of R&B-leaning indie bands is a problem at all, and certainly if I want my fix of R&B I can just get the new Tapemasters mixtape; I don't need indie bands to filter R&B for me. But I think there's potential for something really new and exciting here, that R&B (especially in its current state) offers a goldmine of new ideas and starting points that open-minded indie acts could draw from.

Another indie band with noticeable R&B influences: No Kids. They're coming at it from a chamber-pop milieu that already privileges things like vocal harmonies, but the fact that one of their songs outright swipes the bass line from Amerie's "Crush" seems noteworthy. (It's the first track on this YouTube mix.)

this would entail a lot of hard work and by-committee professional "tampering" that indie bands are above, or don't have the balls to put themselves through (depending on your frame of reference)

another thing: if you are looking for huge, updated sounds, sonorous grooves etc, just listen to R&B. if indie people aren't the ones making those sounds, is it even a problem?

― goole, Wednesday, February 10, 2010 5:01 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

okay number one, you're average indie band can't afford those types of studios or producers as jaymc said.

and the whole bullshit "work ethic" stuff is lame and...um...god help me...rockist i think...i worked PLENTY hard on all the shitty not futuristic maps of norway records thank you very much, i fucking sat there on weekdays past 2AM listening to snare reverb after snare reverb when i had to work the next day...

lots of indie bands probably work harder because they are doing the mixing and engineering work themselves.

plus hard work doesn't mean shit goole you know that homie :)

btw the new retribution gospel choir record was produced by the guy that produced vanessa hudgens and avril lavigne

yeah i was waiting for you to call me out thoroughly and with feeling!

i think it goes to the whole cultural ethos and intended effect/intended audience that underlies each genre. indie peeps are saying "wtf the whole POINT is that we're doing everything by hand in house as best we can figure out!!" and your avg r&b singer is saying "wtf the whole POINT is getting the best writers/producers/engineers to work with, i'm not gonna put out some piece of shit just because!!"

totally

also, i'm mostly just posting out of a misguided sense of duty

the Ur-text of '10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1fzJ_AYajA

i dont think u get this thread

i don't think i get this thread any more.

i guess it's time for your divorce from the marriage of indie-rock and contemporary R&B thread

I hadn't heard that alicia keys track (and I can't stand her usually) but it's pretty good.
thanks guys !
and about the thread, I'm on the side of those who are not convinced at all that this marriage ever existed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPOfn74MN0g

i don't think i get this thread any more.

what on earth is hard to understand here

I'm wondering if there are any other indie bands pushing the boundaries farther, trying to replicate the polish and energy of modern R&B without hiding behind artiness.

also don't like this because it implies a) that "artiness" is bad 2) that it's only something for people to "hide" behind and 3) that R&B can't be arty

wow you don't like that in three whole ways.

yeah some people would just stop at one but that's just how i roll *shrugs*

also don't like this because it implies a) that "artiness" is bad 2) that it's only something for people to "hide" behind and 3) that R&B can't be arty

1) It isn't. 2) It isn't. 3) It can be. Apologies on all accounts.

okay number one, you're average indie band can't afford those types of studios or producers as jaymc said.

So you're saying that all the best r'n'b today is made at fancy studios with producers who charge alot? Is that true?

Helgeson you admit to not hearing much of the r'n'b top 10 but somehow you know how they were all produced and how much it cost? No that I know either, but this theory just seems like some internet guess work from you

this doesn't have anything to do with anything, but did anyone watch P-Star Rising last night on PBS? that was pretty good.

Helgeson you admit to not hearing much of the r'n'b top 10 but somehow you know how they were all produced and how much it cost? No that I know either, but this theory just seems like some internet guess work from you

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, February 10, 2010 9:04 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i mean they are major label budgets....are you just trying call me out or do you really think alicia keys records in her apartment on a laptop?

i've priced out mastering by the dudes that worked on like blueprint 3 (scott hull mastering) though just to see what it would cost once, and major label type mastering alone blows away an indie band's budget

really? the guys who do major label mastering are pretty accessible, and will usually cut a deal if the band isn't on a label. i got rates at $750 - 1000, which is pretty reasonable for top shelf mastering imo.

ok since i'm supposed to be an internet detective, here ya go:

alicia key's new album was recorded at a "state of the art" studio she built, oven studios in long island

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_oven_studios/

the article mentions that their main studio (there are multiple in the building) uses an SSL AWS 900 SE:

http://www.vintageking.com/SSL-AWS-900-SE

that board alone is $80,000.

so that's the level they are working on.

So you're saying that all the best r'n'b today is made at fancy studios with producers who charge alot? Is that true?

This is a great question. Does anybody have an answer? I think a lot of us have been working under the assumption that it is—at least for the type of shiny, contemporary R&B we're discussing here. I've heard great voices and songs from independent R&B artists, too, of course, but nothing that quite captures the sheen and majesty of the stuff that's on the radio.

Now that I think about it, though, the Jeremih album was mostly recorded by the singer and his upstart producer then released, more or less as I understand it, as it was (though I'm sure the studio spent some money reworking and polishing it). That's an album that for better or worse sounds as lavish as anything else on the radio, and it came from fairly independent roots—no big names, no big songwriters, etc. So maybe it is possible.

really? the guys who do major label mastering are pretty accessible, and will usually cut a deal if the band isn't on a label. i got rates at $750 - 1000, which is pretty reasonable for top shelf mastering imo.

― rinse the lemonade (Jordan), Wednesday, February 10, 2010 9:24 PM (39 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hull himself iirc wouldn't do it for less that $5K, i think they offered me a lower level dude at the same equipment but it was still more than we could afford (which was about $500)

Now that I think about it, though, the Jeremih album was mostly recorded by the singer and his upstart producer then released, more or less as I understand it, as it was (though I'm sure the studio spent some money reworking and polishing it). That's an album that for better or worse sounds as lavish as anything else on the radio, and it came from fairly independent roots—no big names, no big songwriters, etc. So maybe it is possible.

― Evan R, Wednesday, February 10, 2010 9:25 PM (38 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i'm not saying you can't make stuff that sounds as good as, say, a new timbaland song - in fact, god help you if you can't - for not a lot of money...but i guarantee that dudes like wayne/young money, timbaland, robin thicke, mary j, etc etc are working at big time studios

and i don't think recording major label r&b is prohibitively expensive, in terms of gear anyways. a korg triton is expensive, but no moreso than a couple of decent guitar amps.

it was way more expensive before the digital age and i don't think it's cost that's prohibiting indie dudes from making stuff that sounds equivalent to radio-ready r&b. it's ideas & execution.

xp

sade is pro-gear, pro-attitude iirc

but yeah this money shit is red herring anyway, i'm sure some young white mustachioed dickweeds with stupid sunglasses could make a song every bit as shitty as bedrock by young money

i'll bet it would be way shittier.

with a little luck, yes

it was way more expensive before the digital age and i don't think it's cost that's prohibiting indie dudes from making stuff that sounds equivalent to radio-ready r&b. it's ideas & execution.

and desire. why would they want to?

because they love the music, and it's pretty natural to want to play the music you love? that's the impression i got of that Discovery record, which sounded pretty shitty from what was on their myspace.

haven't heard the discovery, so don't know about that... but certainly with XX and DP they're pursuing their own singular aesthetics that may take elements of RnB, but that's not all they're about.

seems pretty patronising to listen to what those bands are doing and imply that they're trying to make big budget RnB records but somehow getting it wrong.

hay guyz dun ferget about me! i made mi jamz on da cheep!

http://www.whosjack.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Har_Mar_Superstar-large-msg-117398189103.jpg

i wasn't saying that. i definitely think you can tell that the DPs like modern r&b but wrap that up into their unique thing very well, and i'm not really into the XX but they have a sound.

i think it basically comes down to:

-incorporating influences outside your genre into whatever it is you do, in an interesting way = good

-straight up making music in a genre you like, after you've studied up and are really good at it = good

-making shitty music that brings nothing to a genre except the novelty of having been made by an outsider = bad

yeah, I feel like "Stillness Is the Move" and The xx fall on the right side of that line, whereas Discovery falls on the wrong side. :/

oh god i didn't know what discovery was until i googled this is fucking awful

is this what you are talking about?

http://www.myspace.com/discoverdiscovery

jah mon

eeeeuuuw. see what you mean.

not sure this in any counts as indie rock though. it's basically incredibly amateurish/deluded RnB.

it's rostam from vampire weekend and someone else I forget

oh my fucking god how has no one mentioned "discovery" yet in the vampire weekend arguments

THIS IS THE KIND OF PEOPLE THEY ARE

STAB THEM IN THE FUCKING THROATS

haven't listened to any of this 'discovery' business. kind of hilarious if it's as bad as ppl say, the keyb stuff is my favorite element of vampire weekend's sound

haha i really like discovery

actually, ever since "Hey Ya" I think hip hop has been more 'indie' than indie...

imo, the two best indie albums of the decade were Madvillainy and 4th World War...meanwhile St. Elsewhere, "Lollipop," and Soulja Boy Tell' em are more indie than, say, Beach Boys harmonies or Police retreads with Congolese guitar...

wtf does that mean?

The perfect marriage of indie rock and contemporary R&B happened already:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FigutC1HClM

haha contemporary is doing a lot of work in that sentence

i don't get what's wrong with discovery -- it's just synthpop

it sounds much closer to 3oh!3 than anything you'd hear on r&b radio (aside from maybe jeremih)

there's a lot of low budget r&b btw, but rather than shiny wizardry ppl tend to go the soul-influenced Chrisette Michele/Erykah Badu route over hip hop beats, or experimental a la Muldrow. suggest that way is barred to indie ppl bc they don't have the voices or they come off hopelessly retro and corny.

yah indie plus badu prolly sounds like simply red in practice

you know, i tend to shy away from hyperbole, but if there is anyone out there who thinks that ANY indie rock or indie pop or british "indie" music of the last 15 or 20 years has come anywhere near the greatness sonically/song-wise/production-wise/idea-wise of even third or fourth tier rap or r&b chart pop of the last 15 or 20 years then you are fucking crazy. this wasn't always the case. but it sure is today. you've got the one dude from lcd/dfa and...who? as far as people who can credibly and successfully create hybrid sounds that don't sound completely half-assed or excruciating. just bringing this up cuz its rare when i hear an indie rock band that can even make compelling indie rock now. let alone a band that can juggle two or three balls at once and combine genres in a way that works. (sorry. too much coffee. i don't really have a horse in this race. i just listen to old hard rock records and old freestyle 12 inches anyway. and i actually DO see a glimmer of hope in a band like vampire weekend. they do MOVE somehow. in an itchy white boy way, but that's the first step. if you at least TRY to move all kinds of cool things can happen.)

skot otm

Saying that even "third or fourth tier" rap still always beats indie rock/indie pop of the last twenty years sonically/song-wise/production-wise/idea-wise really is hyperbole.

Having said that, I'd totally agree that, while IMO there's been a lot of great indie rock/indie pop over the last twenty years, I think R&B and hip hop definitely have been better overall.

if there is anyone out there who thinks that ANY indie rock or indie pop or british "indie" music of the last 15 or 20 years has come anywhere near the greatness sonically/song-wise/production-wise/idea-wise of even third or fourth tier rap or r&b chart pop of the last 15 or 20 years then you are fucking crazy.

well, either fucking crazy or, y'know, into different stuff to you, with different ideas about what constitutes song-writing/production greatness...

good RnB > shit indie rock
good indie > shit RnB

(repeat with any two genres)

are DP indie rock? are black dice? are battles? I dig all those to varying degrees, more than whatever counts as lower tier rnb, but wld agree there has generally been a significant gap 'sonically/song-wise/production-wise/idea-wise' and just generally in confidence in identity, less of a healthy scene or whatever, speed&quality of change w/'indie' often shit. rare that something that vast is total shit imo.

yah black dice are maybe my fave band ever just fyi

glad i lived long enough to see indie rock saved by vampire weekend

yeah i think u should def hear it before you die

black dice speak to me on the heart-level, brain-level, spleen-level and pancreas-level.

i thought that was joanna newsom
xpost

yeah im compiling a list

gonna play it to terminal patients, hoping to get it up to 1000 and make a book

black dice aren't indie though they are rolling non-indie underground type stuff

pro tip:

in general, all indie rock that sucks is indie rock now and all indie rock that's actually good or rocks is non indie rock

idk they tour w/animal collective, ducktails or whatever. there are a lot of haircuts at their shows.

on the verge imo

animal collective are only indie rock now, early on they were noise because noise is a social group not a genre

they always had those vocals, shit like "april and the phantom" is not really noise.

Discussions like this just make me want to listen to the hum of my thermostat.

junior boys first album btw

lol

No wonder I'm so contemplative.

not sure thermostat fans are really the same as merzbow fans. there's a grey area, it's just a question of where you draw the line.

The former might prefer drones with rhythms. But who can say.

pretty sure usher was on the same bill as a thermostat when he was starting out fwiw

timbo liked cone toaster iirc

if ned starts listening to more thermostats because of ILM then the world is better off imo. can't wait to read the AMG reviews.

Hey Ya seems very indie-rock to me, with its tricky time-signature, its unusual instrumentation, the way it sets up a song structure only to abandon it halfway through the song (though that might be reaching back more towards soul or funk), the mental dissonance implied by the simultaneity of the sex-crazed emceeing of Andre 3000 & the mournful Hey Ya's almost in the background...not to imply that deliberate complexity is the exclusive domain of indie rock, but it seems to me that the objective of indie rock's self-marginalization was to create a space where one could make music that, like 'Hey Ya', reached in so many different directions at once...

plus, Gnarls Barkley covered The Violent Femmes.

Andre 3000 has said repeatedly that the Buzzcocks and Smiths inspired it.

sex-crazed emceeing of Andre 3000

I must have missed this, or are you referring to a different song?

Andre 3000 has said repeatedly that the Buzzcocks and Smiths inspired it.

is this b.s.?

sex-crazed emceeing = the part about lending him some sugar, he is your neighbor and sundry...

maybe simultaneity is the wrong word...

scott's post upthread is bummin me out. i probably listen to more rap and rn'b than indie rock but they're both really great wtf.

is this b.s.?

No! He said this in several interviews.

André 3000 first began work on "Hey Ya!" in December 2002 at Stankonia Studios in Atlanta, Georgia.[2] He used an acoustic guitar for accompaniment,[2] inspired by bands such as the Ramones, Buzzcocks, and The Smiths.[3] Already having visualized most of the song, he recorded the introduction, the first verse, and the hook. André began recording the vocals during this time, doing several dozen takes. He returned to work on the song several evenings later, with session musician Kevin Kendricks performing the bassline on a synthesizer.[2]

i still think it's way more impressive that big boi likes kate bush

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QP6tO3Cq2no&hl=en_US&fs=1&";></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QP6tO3Cq2no&hl=en_US&fs=1&"; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Hmmm... that's humbling. I apparently lack the skills to embed a YouTube video. Anyway, here's a link instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP6tO3Cq2no

that's pretty bad!

this doesn't have anything to do with anything, but i couldn't help but think the other night that beyonce could knock this song out of the park. so funky. at the very least could someone make a good edit/remix for it? thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shYLzHLCNgg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpf6cGFmLo

that priest song is good! kinda bizarre to hear priest jacking the riff from "mountain song" though o_O

that jay z comment was just what the doctor ordered imo