Is Indie Dead?

"Is Indie Dead?" by Rachael Maddux, Paste Magazine, February 2010.

This month's cover story is a long think piece that can be alternately annoying and interesting. I've complained about being bored with magazines sticking to the same old tired interviews, new artists, old artists, reviews formulas, so this at least a step in the right direction.

I'll let you read to find out their conclusion yourself. We all can guess what all the snarky one-liners and jokes will be in response, so how 'bout we skip all that and discuss the article.

I'll comment more after I've read it, but this coming from Paste of all places is kind of rich.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3397/3443896436_5574b823e5.jpg

I blame Pitchfork! Right guys?!
- Sometool, Fakedate, Blahblah 3:42 PM (Time)

SO FUCKING ORIGINAL
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:43 PM (4 years ago)

Anyway, I'm interested in reading this!

legitimately not sure i can read past the first sentence.

the article doesn't say anything new or particularly insightful that i can see

critics writing for critics, not a step in the right direction imo

We all can guess what all the snarky one-liners and jokes will be in response, so how 'bout we skip all that

...but I spent the whole article thinking of snarky one liners!

All "is X dead?" articles/books/whatever seem like an escape route for people having momentary trouble to cope w/ the fact that they're getting older.

No musical genre has died for the past 100 years or so. The industry, the scene, the press, the attitude blah blah blah are secondary because it`s the impulse to play that counts and creates a social/economic structure around it. Charles Rosen writes beautifully about that on "Piano Notes" but it applies to any style or instrument.

This kind of article keeps showing up over and over again because it grabs attention obviously but also because some music writers encapsulate themselves into this little world of self-importance, historical shallowness and generational bias.

Is indie dead is the new get off my lawn

no one cares about Paste iirc, but publishing a challopsy article with the title "Is Indie Dead?" is a really easy way to increase page views and, consequently, ad revenue, b/c there's a segment of people out there who like to blog/tweet/tumblr about stuff like this

paginating an article "1 2 3 4 5" is also a venerable method for trying to get 5x the page views

read the byline as Rachel Maddow for a sec

that i would read.

Worst article ever. Especially when it starts explaining M.I.A. to the imaginary, time-traveling punks.

This was a soul-killingly boring read. My soul is now dead and I blame Rachel Maddux.

I skimmed it, and I'll give my serious reply.

It seemed that either the author was writing for an audience
that's primarily out of the loop on this topic,
or she is late to the party in considering issues such as
"the Shins sell a commercial to McDonalds."
This is old news.
Maybe I am spoiled by hanging around ILX,
but aren't most of these things
(Death Cab is on a major label,
some indie bands have songs on commercials) pretty obvious?

Perhaps a certain type of Michael Azzerad college rock / indie rock is sorta "dead"
in the sense that the zenith of that type of music has passed,
but then again
I don't think death is a very good metaphor for musical genres, really.

Indie music may be different now,
or is facing an identity crisis,
but I didn't this article very insightful
or timely in addressing those things.

Also, considering Paste Magazine's ouvre is (supposedly)
indie MOR / singer songriwter / accoustic blandness
I found it strange that this article proclaimed indie has withered
by straying from its punk roots.

If the majority of indie bands were more fiery & punk oriented
would Paste even cover them?

I have no idea why I wrote that out like a beat poem

sorry I couldn't read past the first page, and I read statistics books for fun.

I too think that M.I.A. is an asshole for not pronouncing her name "Mia" and I'm glad that someone has finally taken the time to make a smug jab at her about it.

Indie is not dead, it is over.

Tempted to reinstate Strongohulkington as a mod purely to deal with this thread.

read the byline as Rachel Maddow for a sec

http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2010/01/25/Picture%2013_300x241.shkl.jpg

Wait, so indie's been coopted by the mainstream? Why did nobody tell me?

(Pedantic point: wouldn't time-travelling punk from shortly after the Vietnam War go, "MIA? As in soldiers Missing in Action?" Rather than, "Mia?")

eh the article wasn't that bad--at least she talked to people--Slim Moon and Azzerad--instead of making up a bunch of babble

the article is difficult to read because so familiar and so many of the names are anathema

there are doubtless conscientious, intelligent etc people who don't really know (or like) this or any music, and they can read it tabula rasa and probably find it quite informative - it's not an obviously bad essay

"Indie has become this elephant, and its attendants—its fans, practitioners and detractors—are the blind men, grasping for the truth about a creature that’s growing bigger all the time. It looms so increasingly large as to obscure its own hugeness—a writhing, hydra-headed beast that renders itself nearly invisible by filling up our entire field of vision. It’s a limping, disoriented creature unsure of its own nature."

okay. let's start writing class. what's wrong with the quoted passage?

Its existence?

elephants generally only have one head imo?

okay. let's start writing class. what's wrong with the quoted passage?

the author clearly knows their indie so who's to disagree about pachyderms

"unsure of its own nature"? If it's a writhing, limping, nearly invisible, hydra-headed elephant, I'll bet it's unsure of its own nature. Sounds cool though.

the hydréléphant was a concept introduced by felix guattari afaik, a being whose plasmic multiplicity is uncontained by cathective limits

Barack HUSSEIN Obama has had over a year to rebuild the Twin Towers and reanimate the ashes of the dead. Instead he continues to blame Bush and this mythical "Al Qaeda" for all his failures.

oops, wrong thread

naming my new indie band Hydra Elephant

Barack killed indie

indie as ethos is romantic bullshit.

Tempted to reinstate Strongohulkington as a mod purely to deal with this thread.

DO IT DO IT DO IT

no one cares about Paste iirc, but publishing a challopsy article with the title "Is Indie Dead?" is a really easy way to increase page views and, consequently, ad revenue, b/c there's a segment of people out there who like to blog/tweet/tumblr about stuff like this

― kshighway (ksh), Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:47 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Man, kshighway really did become just as jaded and cynical as the rest of us in like 6 months. I'm so proud!

also, he's otm

he learned it from watching you!

http://im.videosearch.rediff.com/thumbImage/videoImages/videoImages1/youtube/rdhash45/Y-Elr5K2Vuo.gif

ok, there's a lot i could say, but let me start here: it is absolutely staggering to me that she got through that piece, particularly the big section about selling songs to commercials on the third page, without really talking about THE INTERNET and the fact that NO ONE SELLS RECORDS ANYMORE

like why the fuck does she keep talking about the early 90s? it's fucking 2010--shit that people thought then is either completely irrelevant or damn close.

Why must you ruin her thesis with annoying facts.

i'm just a jerk like that!

Fucker.

"Indie has become this elephant, and its attendants—its fans, practitioners and detractors—are the blind men, grasping for the truth about a creature that’s growing bigger all the time. It looms so increasingly large as to obscure its own hugeness—a writhing, hydra-headed beast that renders itself nearly invisible by filling up our entire field of vision. It’s a limping, disoriented creature unsure of its own nature."

mised metaphor?

a writhing, hydra-headed beast that renders itself nearly invisible != elephant

wld be a sick fantasy monster tho--an invisible elephant with multiple heads.

mixed metaphor, sorry

Oh, i remember this 'fable', it means indie is whatever the 'blind men' sense it to be, but in fact if they were able to open their eyes, they would see that it's actually Lady Gaga.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

That reads like a broadsheet thinkpiece on Gordon Brown

BLimey, you read that quickly!

She should have thrown this in there is well, just to add to the metaphorical chaos:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_in_the_room

and finished with a side order of have your say:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/MarkGrout/indie.jpg

matt you know you want to.

this thread could be fun unless someone decides to take it seriously. then we would be in trouble. don't do it, [nabisco].

wow! sorry for writing your name. i didn't know...

luv ya!

let's see what happens if i write my name and post it.

[fatty]

hey!

naming my new indie band Hydra Elephant

Genuine LOL at this.

scott seward

Liar!

Are Elephants Dead?

dead elephants walk among us.

only a special few can see.

the White Stripes named an album Elephant: does this mean the White Stripes are indie?

"It's a limping, disoriented creature unsure of its own nature."

Surely this is a bit harsh on elephants?

no see the elephant transformed into a scary creature--that's why it's a mixed metaphor

http://galeria.blogs.com/godsmadmen/images/dc_hydra.jpg

http://www.elephantband.com/images/sro/09-28-2007/eband_full_3.jpg

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/2/3/1/1/p23117_index.html

Little research explores whether and how the appreciation of music can be characterized as utopian. Even less research, if any, goes further by studying whether music-related social movements are utopian. This paper tries to fill these gaps by studying the links between recorded music, utopia, and everyday life. More specifically, the paper explores the indie rock subculture/movement of the early 1980s to today as a utopian movement. The paper starts with a review of the role of music in everyday life, followed by a description of the indie rock movement, and an overview of Ernst Bloch’s work on utopia. The author draws from his ethnographic work in the indie rock scene, the “grand” and production of culture approaches, and other literature to apply various theories to the indie rock movement. It is concluded that the indie rock movement is utopian and further work is suggested on the genesis and routinization of this movement.

...but I spent the whole article thinking of snarky one liners!
― lukevalentine

Ah, but you did assemble them into an epic poem, nice!

no one cares about Paste iirc, but publishing a challopsy article with the title "Is Indie Dead?" is a really easy way to increase page views and, consequently, ad revenue, b/c there's a segment of people out there who like to blog/tweet/tumblr about stuff like this
― kshighway (ksh)

All true, but is there anything else beneath the surface? She does declare indie is dead at the end, and I believe the editor agreed in his letter (I don't have the issue here at work). What other motivations do they have? Might they be positioning themselves to cover more mainstream music and strive for Rolling Stone type readership? Or does it just reiterate their already clear preference of folksy and marginally arty Americana?

I suppose there's no hope that Paste will be getting any less boring soon. Despite the failure of Harp and others, print magazines continue to soldier on, and I wish something could fill the void left long ago by Puncture and Option.

i actually killed indie when i started this thread:

i'm sorry but none of these bands look very interesting. they need swords or something...

it was the final hydra-headed nail in the elephant-shaped coffin.

proud spoon troll since 2005:

Are Spoon Like The Eels Or Something?

Worst article ever. Especially when it starts explaining M.I.A. to the imaginary, time-traveling punks.

― Spinspin Sugah, Thursday, February 18, 2010 6:14 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hahaha yeah explain to them an artist who's biggest song is basically just talking over "Straight to Hell" by the Clash I'm sure they'd be all cornfused

God this was awful, and incredibly backward. Right from the first paragraph the writer admits they see punk as inheritors to God, and emphasizes this throughout by holding it up to a mythical status of infinite cool and infinite purity that makes everything that came after it pathetic and unworthy by comparison. The Punk-Is-God class of music critic has been around for a long long time and yet their manifestos keep getting more and more conservative, more and more annoying.

"Keep Off My Lawn" OTM

I think the worst problem with this article is that it's unfocused, but that's not too surprising when you take on such a big, complicated topic. Also could have done without the time-traveling '80s indie rocker section. True, there's nothing particularly insightful for those of us who are well-acquainted with the history of indie, but I think she aptly summarizes a lot of the key issues at play and has a good sense of the scope of the situation.

Music may be increasingly democratized, but a 30-year-old stay-at-home dad or a 57-year-old big city lawyer or a 43-year-old college professor are all still going to approach music and its context differently than a dyed-in-the-wool ’70s punk fan, or an Animal Collective-obsessed bloghead of the ’00s.

I pretty much flat out disagree with one reading of this but can't really argue because there's nothing else written to back this statement up. Half the article is like this, a jumble of generalized statements with no arguments and little integrated context.

Right from the first paragraph the writer admits they see punk as inheritors to God

I never got the impression that she subscribed to this view.

i think lawyers and punks approach music in different ways

i think lawyers and punks approach elephants in different ways

elephants are universal language you savage

mancini was a goddamned prophet

i think you don't understand elephants

a 32 year old rock critic doesn't understand elephants in the same way as others

and yet you claim that they are a universal language

OK, second paragraph:

"God may have been usurped in the ’60s, but these kids were baring their teeth, sharpening their knives, preparing to slaughter the idol that rose in God’s place, the slicked-smooth supreme being of Pop. They wouldn’t make money doing it, they wouldn’t be famous, they wouldn’t fit in—and they not only braced themselves against these realities, they adopted them as their core tenets, their creed."

so true!

http://www.progweed.net/reviews/magma/groupe75.jpg

INDIE ROCK RORSARCH TEST

1. What do you think of when you see this picture

http://bilia.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/happy-elephant-01.jpg

David Crosby, funnily enough

http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu92/damien_stone/they_live_3.jpg

(try again)

http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu92/damien_stone/Picture16_300x466shkl.jpg

speaking of he who cannot be named, didn't he write this same basic piece on the "health" of indie for pitchfork a while back, except well written, presented under a title not designed to goose pageviews, and with actually interesting conclusions?

probably. sounds like something he would do.

the last rational man in a world gone pageviews mad

Anybody whose heard the new Courteeners album will know the answer is "No Way!"

doesn't seem like there is a whole lot worth reading out there, that's for sure.

x-post

but I think she aptly summarizes a lot of the key issues at play and has a good sense of the scope of the situation.

no, she doesn't, because she does not talk about THE INTERNET

who is he who can't be named???

dude she talks about the interweb

who is he who can't be named???

I was too embarrassed to ask that question :(

she does but not in the sense that 5lim m00n's opinions on business ethics from when he founded kill rock stars are completely, totally worthless in 2010.

re-scanning, she talks about explaining the internet to the time-warped punks. who gives a fuck? i don't think you can have this conversation about indie while pretending that the music business is the same as it was 20 years ago.

http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/7704-the-decade-in-indie/

i think slim moon works or worked for Capitol Records now? just saying

test [nabisco] [.] test

Wow. But who is "."?

Hey code god, you missed something.

Sorry.

To borrow another sentiment from Nietzsche, is this not modern music’s own eternal recurrence?

fwiw i blame ornaldo bloomps for the death of indie

Is Indie Dread?

Is Indie Fred?

Is Indie...Ned?

Is Indie Bled?

Is Indie Cred?

Remember: Indie Must Be Fed.

This piece would have been perfect if the last line had been, "Indie is dead. Long live indie!" and it had been headlined, "Will the real indie please stand up?"

all i know is: if you remind people who death cab for cutie are in 2010 you should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. there is a law, right?

Will The Real **** Please Stand Up should be the title of EVERY article.

Will The Real Elephants Please Stand Up?

Indie Rock is Sick and Living in Cape Cod

At first I thought that no one had actually edited the article, but thinking about it more it seems like the editor is actually a genius for keeping all the half-assed assertions in a bid to get the article buzzed about on facebook, twitter, blogs, etc. Talking points, sound bites; what a world we live in.

but I think she aptly summarizes a lot of the key issues at play and has a good sense of the scope of the situation.

no, she doesn't, because she does not talk about THE INTERNET

She also doesn't touch the selling out of original punk idols that helped precipitate the acceptance of indie selling out. This whole article is about the modern world not being able to live up to some mythical punk ideals that even the original bands from that era failed to live up to.

death cab for indie

supreme beings of indie leisure

Man, kshighway really did become just as jaded and cynical as the rest of us in like 6 months. I'm so proud!

― tza, dik (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:53 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

also, he's otm

― tza, dik (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:54 AM (Yesterday)

Hahaha, thanks dude!

that "This Decade in Indie" article on p4k was really good & funny, i'd never read it

Blood on the horn-rims...

Started back in '83
Started seeing things a differently
And hardcore wasn't doin' it for me no more
Started smoking pot
Thought things sounded better slow
Much slower, heavier
Black magic melody to sink this poseur's soul

VU Stooges undeniably cool
Took a lesson from that drone rock school
Manipulate musicians hack righteous drool
Getting loose with the Pussy Galore
Cracking jokes like a Thurston Moore
Peddle hopping like a Dinosaur, J...

Rock and Roll genius, ride the middle of the road
Milk that sound, blow your load
Shoot it further than you ever said it go
Four stars in the Rolling Stone

Oooh sludge rock,
That's hard as harsh
Just gimme indie rock!
It's gone big
Come on indie rock
Just give me indie rock

Taking inspiration from Husker Du
It's a new generation
Of electric white boy blues
Come on indie rock
It's gone big
Come on indie rock
Just give me indie rock

Breaking down the barriers
Like Sonic Youth
They got what they wanted
Maybe I can get what I want too
Come on indie rock
It's gone big
Come on indie rock
Just give me indie rock

Time to knock
The hard rock on it's side
Time to knock
The shit right up a storm
Turn to amaze
With the indie sludge
Grunge!
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

"There’s this old parable, the tale of the blind men and the elephant."

Gee grandpappy let me pull up a footstool, I ain't never heard that one before. *Gazes gormlessly into the fire* "Twere just an old mangy hydra-headed thing," he says, as I pick a corn kernel from my molars. "Til one day it just got suh gol-danged huge it rendered itself nearly invisible. It was a limping, disoriented creature unsure of its own nature!"

"Grandpappy!" I shrieked, completely freaked out. "Ain't we always said no talkin bout indie music after bedtime?"

How come nobody ever buys my pitches of "Is Noise Dead?"

Indie died when the first kid said...

btw, if punk, hip hop, rock and roll, jazz, and indie have all been pronounced dead, what the hell is alive?

chillwave?

TRASH

I noticed Dockers has an ad campaign now mocking skinny jeans. Given that Dockers is kind of the Paste Magazine of pants, I think there might really be something going on here.

i know a lower-east side music venue that had a "no white belts policy" at least as early as 2001

Saw a "Foam-free in '03" sticker (w/pic of trucker hat) on a door in my wife's art studio building.

can we turn this thread into a discussion of the nabisco article that strongo linked? that one was pretty good. it strikes me that the 2001 "no white belts" policy was a particularly visible chafing against encroaching nu-rave hipster danc-i-tude (thus, per nabisco, pointing up indie's HEALTH vis a vis people feeling that such things matter, rather than its death) (course that was in 2001)

btw, if punk, hip hop, rock and roll, jazz, and indie have all been pronounced dead, what the hell is alive?

The Pop abideth.

Which is the worse genre title, alternative or indie?

College rock?

Underground.

I like Modern Rock the best.

btw, if punk, hip hop, rock and roll, jazz, and indie have all been pronounced dead, what the hell is alive?

chillwave?

― lukevalentine, Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:06 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

and uh, i think dubstep too?

sorry *post-dubstep

rest in peace dubstep

still on the rise: fancehall.

Is Indie ALIVE?

that article was stupid on many levels.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=7429&edition=1&ttl=20100223223547

Last year was the toughest for independent guitar music in the UK – that's according to Martin Talbot, head of the Official Charts Company.

In 2009 pop and electronic music ruled the roost and artists like Dizzee Rascal, N-Dubz and La Roux had a string of hits.

The sound of indie bands battling it out in the charts - familiar a few years ago - died down as groups like Razorlight and The Wombats decided not to release any new music. Only the odd big name band like Kasabian seemed able to buck the trend.

Talbot says part of the reason for the 'indie downturn' could be the economic situation. Record labels, he suggests, are sticking with pop acts which tend to be a safer return on their money.

economic situation and reluctance to put a Donk on it.

amirite?

well yes. also largely an inability to avoid being utter shite.