Most shocking Rock & Roll Hall of Fame snubs (according to CNN.com)

Who is the biggest miss on this list? Who else should the Hall of Fame be considering for next year? Discuss!

rhcp obv

Rush or The Cure, but more so Rush since they've been eligible a lot longer. Fuck RHCP. They've long since tainted whatever legacy they might have once had, but then again that should make them perfect for the Hall.

public enemy

I guess the non-inductions of Frampton, Kiss, Heart, and Alice Cooper are the most surprising/shocking because they've been eligible for so long (and their type of music is the RnRHoF's bread and butter).

RHCP and Bon Jovi have to be locks to be elected in ... what, 3-5 years max? PE will probably have to wait longer, but they'll get in.

I really have no idea if the Cure or Depeche Mode will ever get elected, right now I can't see it happening though. Until the HoF gets the 60's and 70's out of its system, 80's bands don't stand a chance unlike they're on the Bon Jovi-type level of big.

What will be depressing is when we get to the 90s and see shit like Stone Temple Pilots get in before some of these cats.

as much as i hate Kiss, i'm voting for them because it's a hall of FAME and they definitely seem like the most famous of these bands that's been around for well over 25 years and must've been snubbed repeatedly

Until the HoF gets the 60's and 70's out of its system
this is not likely to ever happen, is it? Maybe when Wenner dies.

I want Public Enemy to get in just because I haven't read any hilarious comments on how rap isn't rock music lately.

"it's the ROCK N ROLL Hall of Fame, man! Like, with real instruments!"

The funny thing is, it seems like the more "traditional" (for lack of a better word right now) rock fans I know really think the Hall of Fame is a joke too. I mean my uncle who only listens to like 70s mainstream hard rock thinks its a joke for not having KISS and Rush in. So, I guess my question is, are there people anywhere that take it seriously? Besides Wenner?

cnn.com

ilxor

the city of cleveland

alice cooper is better than the beatles so he should probably be in

also it would be rad if PE was in there but i feel like there are a lot more deserving hip hop people than PE that aren't in

cnn.com

― Mr. Que, Monday, March 15, 2010 5:29 PM (4 minutes ago)

ilxor

― Mr. Que, Monday, March 15, 2010 5:29 PM (4 minutes ago)

???

if Seger isn't in he gets my vote, otherwise i'm too much of a Jeff Lynne worshipper to pass him by

So, I guess my question is, are there people anywhere that take it seriously? Besides Wenner?

was answering this question

you know, the question asked in the posts right above my posts?

Public Enemy's first single was such a non-starter and obscurity that I wouldn't be suprised if the Rock Hall was just considering Yo! Bum Rush The Show their recorded debut and are waiting until 2012

so i'm not exactly "shocked"

shocked at kiss not being in tbh. growing up they were little more than some scary dudes on lunchboxes but..they were on a lot of lunchboxes iirc.

most shocked @ kiss & coop, for sure.

i wouldn't be too shocked by kiss and alice cooper not getting in, weren't they the enemy of the whole jann wenner-ben fong torres rs mafia?

They've set the bar so abysmally low, these are the kinds of names that get elevated to the category of "snubs." The one inclusion that clearly belongs--and I'm not even much of a fan--would be Public Enemy. I'm a huge fan of early Cheap Trick, but objectively, forget it. I guess you could make a case for Kiss and/or Alice Cooper...though I wouldn't make it myself. And if it were a British HOF, T. Rex for sure. Everything else on there, laughable.

isn't roxy music not in? they should be in over t-rex, although they both should be

i bet roxy gets in before t-rex cuz of eno

Screamin' Jay Hawkins

The Big Bopper, wtf?

Rush is the correct answer. The fact that they aren't already in the Hall of Fame is a complete travesty.

Have you read the comments on there? Half of them are people saying Chicago should be in the HoF. Are Chicago really popular or have they all just been linked to the article from a Chicago message board?

Dick from California March 15th, 2010 7:15 pm ET

The Hall of Fame should be just that...for those with established FAME. Obscure bands/artists have no place in a Hall of Fame. Bseides, most of these obscure bands got their "brilliant/genius" tag from a single work, and had no lasting impact on the music industry. It would be like putting a football player in because he had one great game. I mean, seriously. I'll admit I'm not a hardcore music afficianado, but when I haven't even heard of a band/artist, how famous can they be? The FAME needs to be put back into the Hall of Fame.

Kevvinn B Jagielka March 15th, 2010 7:20 pm ET

Who are the stooges? Only popular bands that have sold millions of albums should be in it. Hall Of Fame should mean that acts who are FAMOUS and everyone has heard of them. Obscure trendy acts shouldn't be near the Hall Of Fame. The great American Public should decide. The problem is that Rolling Stone still wants to be all counter culture and be trendy. . Chicago should be in there! And Kiss! And Van Halen! Down with trendy liberal magazines like Rolling Stone telling good ole americans what should be in a hall of fame. Make it a public vote!

Did alex write this?

J. March 15th, 2010 7:30 pm ET

They should induct Slayer and force Joni Mitchell to do the induction speech. "Ladies and Gentlemen, the next honor of induction goes to a band that wrote lovelorn ditties that explored the condition of the human heart. Songs such as "Angel Of Death", "Necrophobic", and a song I feel would have felt right at home in my album, Court and Spark...."Mandatory Suicide", have lifted the spirit of a whole generation. "
"Ladies and Gentlemen.....SLAYER.
*terrified silence*

The Moody Blues! Their first single ("Go Now") is from '65, so they've obviously been eligible for years. And they're great!

well, the moody's first single is a classic, no doubt. after that... doddddggggyyyyy.

I luvs 'em. Days of Future Passed... To Our Children's Children's Children... Hilarious poety, too! Even "Your Wildest Dreams" was decent.

i'm voting for them because it's a hall of FAME

This is silly even when ppl arent talkin bout baseball

Chicago should be in there! And Kiss! And Van Halen! Down with trendy liberal magazines like Rolling Stone telling good ole americans what should be in a hall of fame. Make it a public vote!

Do people really think like that?

the city of cleveland

― tylerw, Monday, March 15, 2010 6:32 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

We really don't take it all that seriously tbh except for the tourist $$$. Speaking for the whole city.

ALICE COOPER

They should induct Slayer and force Joni Mitchell to do the induction speech. "Ladies and Gentlemen, the next honor of induction goes to a band that wrote lovelorn ditties that explored the condition of the human heart. Songs such as "Angel Of Death", "Necrophobic", and a song I feel would have felt right at home in my album, Court and Spark...."Mandatory Suicide", have lifted the spirit of a whole generation. "

Seriously: I would send a donation to the HOF if Joni did this.

Do people really think like that?
― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Yeah, it's funny reading Rolling Stone being referred to as a trendy magazine. When your publisher stopped listening to music back in 1974, I believe you cease being trendy.

Who has say in HOF voting other than Wenner? I thought I remember reading Ahmet Ertegun was a voter too, but ya, probably not anymore.

Dick from California March 15th, 2010 7:15 pm ET

Which Dick from California wrote it?

Yeah, it's funny reading Rolling Stone being referred to as a trendy magazine. When your publisher stopped listening to music back in 1974, I believe you cease being trendy.

I suppose if you stopped listening to music in 1969 you might think Rolling Stone Magazine was trendy

Mick March 15th, 2010 9:33 pm ET

Chicago – horn crap
Hall and Oates – fudge packers
Moody Blues – overrated trash
Peter Frampton-only relevant in Humble Pie
Bon Jovi -blow dryers
Public Enemy- escaped slaves
Delaney and Bonnie and Friends- doobie burnouts
Flying Burrito Brothers – ass gas
Badfinger -lets all commit suicide!
Stephen Stills- huh? wheres my coke spoon?
Harry Nilsson -dead lame depressing slug
Herman's Hermits-Peter Noone-infomercial guru with bad English teeth man.
Bread-the biggest pussies on planet Earth
The Marshal Tucker Band – they're cowboys dumb-ass
Boston- one note wonders
Karen Carpenter-eat a sandwich will ya?
The Cowsills-inbred goobers
ABBA-euro trash in jump suits
Kansas/Journey/Foreigner/Styx/ REO Speedwagon – all the same band right?
Neil Diamond- grandma music
Cat Stevens-terrorist
Gary Glitter -homosexual pedophile (see Michael Jackson)
New York Dolls-one great album cover and nuthin else
Doctor Hook & The Medicine Show-Wenner bought it.
Andy Gibb /Maurice Gibb – 2 down 2 to go.
How come no one has mentioned Rush?
Leon Redbone -Zappas alter-ego without the talent
Joan Jett -slut
Doobie Brothers- pick a genre!
Toto – karaoke rubbish
Three Dog Night-great vocals ,crappy songs
Meatloaf- wishes he picked a cooler name. Fat.
Sammy Hagar -Drive 55 off a freakin cliff lame-o
Jimmy Buffet -hello?? Rock & Roll
Boz Scaggs – once a good bluesman-sold out to the disco scene.
The Guess Who -guess what? They stink. aka Rare Earth-interchangeable crap.
Poco-LameO
Little Feat-less talent
Tori Amos -somebody shoot that guy who wrote that.

^ could be a poll

Out of the list at the top, I'd say the two that should get in first are Alice Cooper and T-Rex for their music and the music they influenced. Kiss makes sense for a Hall of Fame, but Alice pretty much did it first you know. Marc Bolan also didn't get a second shot, as he died as he was just coming around for him to maybe have another shot, but the guy was gold.

suddenly i feel very young.

Voting Alice, since he/they are easily the best one up there, though I can't say I'm "shocked" by him being "snubbed". (Even though he/they invented shock rock. Wait, are we talking about the guy or the band?) I really have no clue as to who's in and who isn't, otherwise. (I like T. Rex fine, but they seem kinda minor to me compared to most of the rest. Plus Cheap Trick, Heart, and Foreigner were all better anyway.)

Chicago should be in there! And Kiss! And Van Halen! Down with trendy liberal magazines like Rolling Stone telling good ole americans what should be in a hall of fame. Make it a public vote!

Do people really think like that?

they do & it is why people should come w/their own SB buttons

went with Heart, just coz they seem to be lost in the trex AC rush battle


Flying Burrito Brothers – ass gas
, etc.

had no clue Humble Pie and non-disco (?) Boz Scaggs fans were so Alex in NYC-esque.

Doobie Brothers- pick a genre!
Toto – karaoke rubbish = ?

Little Feat-less talent

genuine lolz

Heart because a female fronted rock band seems like obvious HOF bait

Mick March 15th, 2010 9:33 pm ET

Chicago – horn crap
Hall and Oates – fudge packers
Moody Blues – overrated trash
Peter Frampton-only relevant in Humble Pie
Bon Jovi -blow dryers
Public Enemy- escaped slaves
Delaney and Bonnie and Friends- doobie burnouts
Flying Burrito Brothers – ass gas
Badfinger -lets all commit suicide!
Stephen Stills- huh? wheres my coke spoon?
Harry Nilsson -dead lame depressing slug
Herman's Hermits-Peter Noone-infomercial guru with bad English teeth man.
Bread-the biggest pussies on planet Earth
The Marshal Tucker Band – they're cowboys dumb-ass
Boston- one note wonders
Karen Carpenter-eat a sandwich will ya?
The Cowsills-inbred goobers
ABBA-euro trash in jump suits
Kansas/Journey/Foreigner/Styx/ REO Speedwagon – all the same band right?
Neil Diamond- grandma music
Cat Stevens-terrorist
Gary Glitter -homosexual pedophile (see Michael Jackson)
New York Dolls-one great album cover and nuthin else
Doctor Hook & The Medicine Show-Wenner bought it.
Andy Gibb /Maurice Gibb – 2 down 2 to go.
How come no one has mentioned Rush?
Leon Redbone -Zappas alter-ego without the talent
Joan Jett -slut
Doobie Brothers- pick a genre!
Toto – karaoke rubbish
Three Dog Night-great vocals ,crappy songs
Meatloaf- wishes he picked a cooler name. Fat.
Sammy Hagar -Drive 55 off a freakin cliff lame-o
Jimmy Buffet -hello?? Rock & Roll
Boz Scaggs – once a good bluesman-sold out to the disco scene.
The Guess Who -guess what? They stink. aka Rare Earth-interchangeable crap.
Poco-LameO
Little Feat-less talent
Tori Amos -somebody shoot that guy who wrote that.

is this the same guy who reviewed everyone at his high school?

i'm voting for them because it's a hall of FAME

This is silly even when ppl arent talkin bout baseball

― Fusty Moralizer (Dr Morbius), Monday, March 15, 2010 8:38 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it's makes a lot more sense than if you try to pretend it's the Rock & Roll Hall of Quality/Greatness/Originality/etc.

It still doesn't make sense because it's basically a monument to a Rolling Stone-style canon. I'd certainly say "quality/greatness/originality/etc." is very much the criteria, at least by the committee's standards.

ALICE.

the CURE

they were pretty original
they have more than enough great music
I've heard tons trying to sound like Robert Smith over the last 10 years.

Public Enemy :)

(Although seriously, they belong there, because of their historical importance for the development of popular music, as R&RHOF is not supposed to be rock'n'roll only)

But now understanding the question properly, I understand I should have voted Depeche Mode instead. They have the time ahead of them, though, and I am pretty certain they will get in.

Wow, if even Geir's voting PE, surely they will run away with this?

Personally, the only other one I'd go vote for would be TRex, but they didn't happen at all in the US apart from "Get It On (Bang a Gong)" right?

"20th Century Boy" was briefly ubiquitous in the US a few years ago thanks to its use in a Mitsubishi commercial that played on tv every ten minutes.

Are PE even eligible yet? As of 25 years ago, they'd only released one obscure single under a different name.

What, Gay Dad?

Jedward

(serious answer: Spectrum City)

if my personal tastes were dictating, it would likely be a toss-up between T. Rex and ELO. Cheap Trick & Public Enemy would be great. (i mean insofar as RnR Hall of Fame induction is "great")

but dude, Rush deserves this.

wouldn't be suprised if the Rock Hall was just consideringYo! Bum Rush The ShowNation Of Millions their recorded debut and are waiting until20122013

Did that above thing make sense? What I'm trying to say is PE will get in without question, but 25 years after Nation Of Millions.

so elegibility is 25 years after group/band/artist inception or 25 years after breathrough landmark work?

If the Stooges made it in, Alice Cooper and Kiss can't be far behind, give 'em another year or so. I'll bet Rush and PE will make it in time too. And anyways, this really isn't about who deserves admission, assuming induction is even a desirable thing, which nobody on this thread really thinks it is. So, based on my impression of the HoF, I think the most truly surprising (not surprising enough to be "shocking") omission is Chicago.

tbh the only band on here whose inclusion in a hall of fame would surprise me is RHCP

What about Yes? Blue Oyster Cult? Of the crew in the poll, I gotta go with Rush.

Really? I think their inclusion would be one of the least surprising. According to Wikipedia, RHCP have sold 55 million albums ... who on that list has sold more? Kiss, Frampton, and Bon Jovi maybe?

xpost

CHEAP FUCKING TRICK

Really? I think their inclusion would be one of the least surprising. According to Wikipedia, RHCP have sold 55 million albums ... who on that list has sold more? Kiss, Frampton, and Bon Jovi maybe?

Aside from the ones you mentioned

Depeche Mode: 100 million albums/singles
Chicago: over 120 million albums
Hall and Oates: over 60 million
ELO: over 100 million
Journey: 75 million

so elegibility is 25 years after group/band/artist inception or 25 years after breathrough landmark work?

That's probably how it will work for inductees going forward. So the Chili Peppers will most likely get voted in 25 years after Blood Sugar...

Of the acts where I could find numbers, The Cure (27 million as of 1994) and Heart (over 30 million) hit the low end

Between Alice and T-Rex... but Alice it is

... LOL, I didn't notice Public Enemy!!!!!!

Of the names listed here, only 2 have ever been nominated before: Kiss and RHCP. None of the others have ever been nominated. And Public Enemy aren't eligible yet. Of the names listed, I can say for sure that Frampton, Journey, Bad Company and Foreigner have little to no chance of ever getting in.

John Huston, in Chinatown: "'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough." Bad '70s rock bands, too--he forgot bad '70s rock bands.

RHCP are as establishment (rubber-stamped four star RS reviews of every new album, Gramy AOTY nod) as any band of their generation gets. they may not get in before some of those older bands, but they'll get in.

... LOL, I didn't notice Public Enemy!!!!!!

― The Oort Locker (Tom D.), Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:00 AM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

That's what Jann Wenner said.

RHCP are as establishment (rubber-stamped four star RS reviews of every new album, Gramy AOTY nod) as any band of their generation gets. they may not get in before some of those older bands, but they'll get in.

that's true, I guess I keep thinking of them as being the same band I encountered on their first three albums and therefore seeing them listed with "the greats" seems (unfairly) bizarre

By personal taste, I'd vote for Hall & Oates or ELO. By "significance", I guess I'd pick Public Enemy.

I notice that the Beastie Boys didn't make the CNN.com list.

All right, point taken on the sales figures for the other bands on the list. ELO sold 100 million albums? WTF???

I guess I keep thinking of them as being the same band I encountered on their first three albums and therefore seeing them listed with "the greats" seems (unfairly) bizarre

Yeah, me too. Still, I can't deny that: huge sales numbers + being one of the world's most popular rock bands going on 20 years + RS-approved = easy HOF selection

Beastie Boys were nominated in 2007, but not last 2 years.
BTW- I voted for Hall & Oates.

keep thinking of them as being the same band I encountered on their first three albums and therefore seeing them listed with "the greats" seems (unfairly) bizarre

Yeah, me too. I'm all "what're they gonna do, show up for the HoF ceremony with socks on their cocks"? (The "they totally suck" factor works into it too, probably.)

I will ride for the first 3 RHCP albums until the day I die

No KC & the Sunshine Band is a travesty.

Hall & Oates and Public Enemy are my tops, Cheap Trick pretty great, esp. live up through the '90s, Foreigner's "Urgent" makes up for anything else they did, RHCP just uhg despite a few good songs on first couple albums, and the rest mostly off my map except whatever hit radio, though I'm open. Can/should a 40-year-old get into Alice Cooper and Rush this late?

yes to both IMO

in fact, if you are 40+ and aren't into at least one of either Rush or Alice Cooper, I am not sure you can be trusted

Me = untrustworthy.

There's a good thread: What is the musical equivalent of the endlessly recycled and misattributed quote to the effect that anyone who isn't a socialist at 20 has no heart, and anyone who isn't a conservative at 40 has no brain?

Me too. Lee's voice is just too annoying though I loved 'Subdivisions' once upon a time.

in fact, if you are 40+ and aren't into at least one of either Rush or Alice Cooper, I am not sure you can be trusted

― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:10 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^Amen

Pete

I love Rush to death. I listened to Power Windows last night actually.

But here's the thing, I think being a Rush fan is sort of like homosexuality...some people are just born Rush fans, but it might take you a while to discover that about yourself...but if you wanna give it a shot, try like 2112 and Moving Pictures. Some people just can't like Rush.

WRT Alice Cooper, the original Alice Cooper band albums (especially the run of Easy Action through School's Out) are pretty much the most mindblowing musical discovery I made in the last 5 years.

Those albums contain elements of pretty much every single thing that's great about rock music. Great pop hooks, ratty punk energy, awesome riffs, funny stupidity, grand ambition, art rock set pieces, awesome rhythm section playing, great guitar solos, etc etc.

if you end up listening to like, Killer or Love it to Death and aren't impressed...I'd kinda question if you like rock music.

hahaha

I am Rush-curious

That's the key for me: "once upon a time." Once upon a time, e.g. back in grade 6 in 1973, when Mr. Weedmark brought the School's Out album to music class, Alice Cooper was this really grown-up, scary, endlessly mysterious entity, and "School's Out" itself was a blast. The idea that almost 40 years later, after all the bad music and celebrity foolishness and general Spinal Tap downward spiral, that one moment would be enough to convince me that Alice Cooper belongs in any kind of HOF strikes me as absurd.

I believe you can make that exact same argument for every single act currently in the Hall of Fame.

Possibly, but at a certain level of achievement--Dylan, the Rolling Stones, Neil Young, etc.--the downward drift doesn't much matter, any more that it matters that Willie Mays or Steve Carlton or Rickey Henderson hung on too long too. But you can't turn Alice Cooper into Willie Mays; at best he's Mike Cuellar, great for two or three years and then nothing. (And let me say pre-emptively that the Velvet Underground's or Sex Pistols' "two or three" years are a whole different matter.)

being a Rush fan is sort of like homosexuality
lol

"And let me say pre-emptively that the Velvet Underground's or Sex Pistols' "two or three" years are a whole different matter."

Bullshit. Why? because that's what you're supposed to think? It sure isnt because they made better music than Alice Cooper.

But here's the thing, I think being a Rush fan is sort of like homosexuality...some people are just born Rush fans, but it might take you a while to discover that about yourself...

OTM. I discovered this abt myself at age 36, everything just felt so right.

Rush, BOC and Current 93 stand as the biggest new enthusiasms of my thirties (though I still have 4 months to go)

No homo.

i'm not crazy into Rush, but you know, a couple drinks, the right situation ... who knows?

Bill Magill: Yes, yes, I always place great importance on what I'm supposed to think...If you count Alice Cooper's body of work as being the equal of the Velvet Underground's or the Sex Pistols', well, have at it. That's kind of a hard argument to enter into.

The idea that almost 40 years later, after all the bad music and celebrity foolishness and general Spinal Tap downward spiral, that one moment would be enough to convince me that Alice Cooper belongs in any kind of HOF strikes me as absurd.

you know what strikes me as being absurd? a hall of fame for rock and roll. i mean. . . it's crazy!

"That's kind of a hard argument to enter into."

How come? Here, I'll win it easily: I think Alice Cooper made better music than the Sex Pistols and the Velvet Underground. Not such a hard argument. Mike Cuellar, my ass.

Good--we've settled that Alice Cooper were superior to the Velvet Underground and the Sex Pistols. Thanks!...I think I half-agree with Mr. Que about the redundancy of the whole enterprise. If you go back to the very first inductees, though, they started off doing a good job--admittedly, it was a lot easier wading through the upper echelon. At some point they lost their way, and now I have no idea what the criteria are.

in fairness, almost everyone made better music than The Sex Pistols, including pretty much everyone they inspired and musical projects taken up by Pistols members after the band broke up

and Yanni

I'm 30, been a music-obsessed fan for about 10 years, and I just realized I haven't one single song from Rush. And the only song I heard from Alice Cooper is that "School's Out" song, but that was from a movie (I think). I never listened to classic rock radio growing up, so I blame that on my ignorance.

*for my ignorance* Gah

you never Rush?

Is there a minimum placed on who gets elected?

i'm not crazy into Rush, but you know, a couple drinks, the right situation ... who knows?

great post

Alice Cooper's greatest songs (there were several) were on the level with Dylan's, the Stones, Neil's, the Pistols' and the Velvets'. And he made great music for more than two years. (Tons of it between 1971 and 1973, right; but at least sporadically back to 1969 and through 1980.)

Depeche Mode have sold 25 million more albums than Journey?? Like, in a world that includes North America? Hm, maybe it's cause Journey's hits are mostly on a couple of albums?

That number was pretty shocking to me, too!

xp And this is hardly the first time that argument's been made; it's really not that far-fetched. (Rolling Stone Record Guide gave Alice's Greatest Hits LP five stars out of five, way back in 1979. And it's not hard at all to hear his early '70s hits as a direct precursor of punk, except way more young American actually heard them.)

DP have put out like twice as many albums as journey did w/perry, maybe that accounts for something

i forgot HI DERE sang for Journey

the best of times, IMO

I'll check me out some Alice Cooper. Think I'll continue to be ignorant with Teh Rush.

xost

fwiw, arnel pineda's login names have never been as funny as yours

Aw man, just listen to 'Freewill' one time and come back to us.

xpost

"Freewill" is the "just the tip" of Rush songs

I like arguing about the HOF, so I like this thread, but I've got to head out for a while...Alice Cooper's greatest songs were, more or less, "School's Out," "Eighteen," "Elected," "Under My Wheels," "Hello, Hooray," "No More Mr. Nice Guy," maybe a few others. I wouldn't put them in the same universe as the best dozen songs from Dylan, the Rolling Stones, Neil Young, or the Velvets. (The Sex Pistols comparison is complicated by how small their sample is, so I'd narrow the comparison to a half-dozen songs and make the same claim.) I realize that's kind of a boring, predictable conclusion, but boring and predictable can be true too. As for Alice's great music up to 1980, I think it's fair to say that, for most casual observers, Alice Cooper barely exists after "Only Women Bleed."

Alice Cooper's greatest songs were, more or less, "School's Out," "Eighteen," "Elected," "Under My Wheels," "Hello, Hooray," "No More Mr. Nice Guy," maybe a few others

see...this is where your post starts to go off the rails. (not that those aren't great songs)

I wouldn't put them in the same universe as the best dozen songs from Dylan, the Rolling Stones, Neil Young, or the Velvets.

(and i would)

Everyone's picking on me, so I'm gathering up my toys and going home! (Would another boring old guy please get on here and help me out?)

kind of sad that no one is biting on my "Yanni is better than The Sex Pistols" troll bait

shocked at kiss not being in tbh. growing up they were little more than some scary dudes on lunchboxes but..they were on a lot of lunchboxes iirc.

This is Dave Marsh's doing: "Kiss is not a great band, Kiss was never a great band, Kiss never will be a great band, and I have done my share to keep them off the ballot."

Can't say I disagree. And I like Kiss.

Aw man, just listen to 'Freewill' one time and come back to us.

― heck bent for pleather (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:13 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Done. It's alright. Not really my cup of tea, though. The guitar freakout about 3 minutes in was cool.

listening to "halo of flies" right now, god this is great

kind of sad that no one is biting on my "Yanni is better than The Sex Pistols" troll bait

It set off my "back away from the crazy man and don't make any sounds" instinct.

I could just never get over the cognitive dissonance as a kid of collecting Kiss cards, comics and magazines for a year or more and then finally hearing what they actually sounded like. This tepid boogie rock is the sound monsters and demons make?!?!?!

kind of sad that no one is biting on my "Yanni is better than The Sex Pistols" troll bait

― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:22 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

What would an insufferable music snob definitely NOT have in their collection?

ILM in being too concerned about being perceived as "unhip" to respond to trollbait shocker.

FUCK YOU DAN SEXY PISTOLS RUUUUUULES

I think I speak for every human on the planet when I say we would be unreservedly thrilled to see Yanni inducted into the RnR Hall of Fame.

yes, while tigers gave him a blow job

and F-14's screamed overhead

I prefer to vote for Cheap Trick.

I could just never get over the cognitive dissonance as a kid of collecting Kiss cards, comics and magazines for a year or more and then finally hearing what they actually sounded like. This tepid boogie rock is the sound monsters and demons make?!?!?!

― heck bent for pleather (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:28 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, I felt that same let-down. My first KISS record was "Let's Put The X in Sex" too.

Also that weird german pop star (Haino? Heino?)
Google gives way more varied hits for "weird german pop star" than I thought there would be.

By which I mean, "which only increased the tepidness", not that it was your first record also.

I think not until I heard Boredoms' Soul Discharge did I realize what I had imagined KISS would sound like.

OK then who was the rockingest band to appear on scooby doo?
http://media.kissonline.com/non_secure/user/images/letters/20091019/051133_phantom_scooby_doo_unmask_1/large.jpg

pffft....KISS ain't got nothing on Jerry Reed. recognize.

Did Don Knotts sing?

I think he sang in Incredible Mr. Limpet but don't remember a Limpet/Scooby crossover.

honestly though i can't really get mad at bands not getting in the hall of fame.

it's not the "best bands", it's just "these are the kind of bands that get in the hall of fame."

like the hollies? i mean...they might as well just say "hey did your band exist from 1966 to 1969? were you semi-popular? you're in!"

Until a year or so I would've agreed, but a friend played me about an hour of Hollies shit which straight blew my mind.

(Tho I guess you're not so much belittling the Hollies there)

Alice Cooper's greatest songs were, more or less, "School's Out," "Eighteen," "Elected," "Under My Wheels," "Hello, Hooray," "No More Mr. Nice Guy," "Ballad Of Dwight Fry," "Be My Lover," "Billion Dollar Babies," "Black Juju," "Caught In A Dream," "Clones (We're All)," "Dance Yourelf To Death," "Desperado," "Elected," "Generation Landslide," "Hallowed Be Thy Name," "Halo Of Flies," "How You Gonna See Me Now," "I Never Cry," "Is It My Body," "Killer," "Model Citizen," "Muscle Of Love," "Teenage Lament '74," "Welcome To My Nightmare," "You And Me," and maybe a few others. (Haven't pulled on Easy Action or Pretties For You in quite a while, I admit; somebody else can handle those.)

Depeche Mode have sold 25 million more albums than Journey?? Like, in a world that includes North America? Hm, maybe it's cause Journey's hits are mostly on a couple of albums?

That DM number was for "albums + singles" though, not sure what the breakdown is there, but it's still a shitload of albums.

I'm still in the closet re: Rush, which is even more shameful on account of my being Canadian.

xp And "Only Women Bleed" obviously (a major feminist statement!), but clemenza already mentioned that one.

Alice Cooper and Mott the Hoople were as good as The Stooges, Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, to name three other bands from the time that weren't taken seriously, but are unimpeachable nowadays. This will get sorted out eventually.

IRRC, the Marsh-edited Rolling Stone Record Guides gave low marks to Ziggy Stardust and Roxy Music before Siren, and not to much weight to Iggy, Mott or Alice. Dude did NOT like platform boots.

Alice Cooper. Seriously, what the fuck?

I assume the same Guide had little use for T. Rex as well? xpost

Can't remember. On further though, they he gave Mott a high rating.

IRRC, the Marsh-edited Rolling Stone Record Guides gave low marks to Ziggy Stardust and Roxy Music before Siren, and not to much weight to Iggy, Mott or Alice. Dude did NOT like platform boots.

The 1979 edition gave Bowie higher marks than the 1983 edition; the latter's Bowie entry was written by someone else (neither entry was by Marsh), and the highest rankings were 4-stars for Lodger and Scary Monsters.

The 1983 edition gave Mott The Hoople's Mott five stars. All The Young Dudes got four stars, and Marsh wrote their entry. He compared Mott favorably to Forever Changes.

Based on his entry for "Bang A Gong" in The Heart Of Rock & Soul, Marsh seemed to prefer Bolan to Bowie, but the (non-Marsh-penned) T. Rex entry in the RS Guide didn't give anything more than 3 stars (for Electric Warrior.

there we go, thanks.

I think Slade should get in to the HOF before T. Rex, tbh.

in the US they're really just known for giving us quiet riot, so, uh, no

kinda surprised Heart didn't get in before Blondie

plus nancy's married to cameron crowe, that has to count for something

"Poison" and "Feed My Frankenstein" too, Chuck!

in the US they're really just known for giving us quiet riot, so, uh, no

Isn't T. Rex mainly remembered in the US now for that Power Station song?

kind of sad that no one is biting on my "Yanni is better than The Sex Pistols" troll bait

Didn't set off my troll meter because it's true...

I say this as a huge John Lydon/Public Image Ltd. fan, naturally.

"Some Like it Hot" is by Duran Duran

No, it's Power Station.

uh, I think I know my Duran Duran

"Some Like It Hot" is by Power Station, foo.

Isn't T. Rex mainly remembered in the US now for that Power Station song?

"Get It On" was a top ten hit for Bolan, too! And you hear stuff like "20th Century Boy" everywhere, dude's got more respect/cult/clout here than Slade by a mile, valid or no.

If you mean John and Andy Taylor had a hand in writing it, then sure.

xpost

"20th Century Boy" is my second favorite New York Dolls song

Voted PE on the basis of Geir's proselytizing/evangelizing.

behind "Suffragette City" or "Lust For Life"?

xpost

trick question: they were all by Lou Reed's band Velvet Goldmine

exactly^^^^^

Has Yanni ever written a song more memorable than John Tesh's theme to NBA on NBC?

I think his version of Helter Skelter is pretty memorable.

on a thread recently someone pointed out how weird it is that Green Day is held in really high esteem nowadays, like, they ~made it~. I feel the same way about RHCP, I think b/c I missed the late 90s (lol grad school) when they apparently became the biggest rock band in the world.

I just feel like Yanni is coasting on his mustache while Tesh is hunched over a piano, pencil in teeth, scrunched up sheets of paper on the floor, trying to find the perfect hook.

Knowing they've sold 120 million records makes me even more surprised that Chicago weren't inducted. Again, not saying that they're MY personal choice. But since everyone else is speaking up for who they'd personally choose, I'll toss my Alice Cooper top-hat in the ring.

Oh, and Yanni is better than The Cure.

(How's that for troll bait?)

Just randomly watching Alice Cooper videos on Youtube, and had to post this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRHFIVJtqpc

Like Rush the most, am most surprised about Chicago.

Don't know if this justifies it's own thread, so I'll post it here:

If the Rock hall of fame uses sales as one of its biggest criteria, what's going to happen 5-10 years from now when 'sales' becomes a meaningless factor? Are more indie acts going to get in as a consequence?

there's thousands of 60s,70s and 80s acts still to come for them to worry about that.

^ HA, yeah, I guess. OK, new question: what happens when Jann Wenner dies and people stop looking at looked-over 60s/70s acts?

Ha, Yanni was in a Minneapolis glam band with Cheap Trick's original singer and a live show modeled on Alice Cooper--closer than you know, love each other so...

http://www.citypages.com/1998-11-04/arts/from-flannel-to-glitter/all

i'd say Public Enemy not being in is the most shocking in that they seemed to fit most of the (unofficial) Jann Wenner/Dave Marsh/rockist critics' criteria: the critics loved them, their lyrics were "important" (as opposed to, i dunno, LL Cool J's or EPMD's), and they appealed to white rock critics whose dicks got hard for rock bands with a "message" and some sort of punk-ish appeal.

i'm amazed that Genesis got in before Yes -- esp. in that prog-era Genesis is nowhere near as good as prog-era Yes.

i mean, if yer gonna have ONE token prog band in the fucking place then why not have a GOOD one (like Yes or King Crimson)?!?

Yeah but Genesis went on to become Big Stadium Nice Band, Yes never did that. I'm guessing that's more what did it.

(and everyone's mum and dad likes phil collins, but I bet none of them have even heard of Rick Wakeman)

Based on his entry for "Bang A Gong" in The Heart Of Rock & Soul, Marsh seemed to prefer Bolan to Bowie, but the (non-Marsh-penned) T. Rex entry in the RS Guide didn't give anything more than 3 stars (for Electric Warrior.

― Tarfumes The Escape Goat

Actually, Marsh did write that (blue book) T. Rex entry. (Probably what you meant to say.)

Alice Cooper's greatest songs were, more or less, "School's Out," "Eighteen," "Elected," "Under My Wheels," "Hello, Hooray," "No More Mr. Nice Guy," "Ballad Of Dwight Fry," "Be My Lover," "Billion Dollar Babies," "Black Juju," "Caught In A Dream," "Clones (We're All)," "Dance Yourelf To Death," "Desperado," "Elected," "Generation Landslide," "Hallowed Be Thy Name," "Halo Of Flies," "How You Gonna See Me Now," "I Never Cry," "Is It My Body," "Killer," "Model Citizen," "Muscle Of Love," "Teenage Lament '74," "Welcome To My Nightmare," "You And Me," and maybe a few others.

You've got a long list of songs there, that much be true. Is every one of them the equal of the 12th-best songs by Dylan, the Rolling Stones, Neil Young, or the Velvets? I guess it depends on what the meaning of "is" is--for me, not even close. (Hi, Chuck!)

I haven't made lists, and don't plan to, but I'd be surprised if the 12 best ones of those (adding in "Only Women Bleed," quite possibly one of those dozen) don't match the 12 best by those other guys. Kinda unfair to expect Alice's #28 (or whatever) to match everybody else's #12, no? (Uh..hi Clemenza! But I'm slow and haven't figured out who you are.)

(Fwiw, I think either "Black Juju" or "Welcome to My Nightmare" would wind up #28 -- probably my least favorite songs up there. And no, those would definitely not be as good as Dylan/Stones/Velvets/Neil's #12.)

The #28 vs. #12 is a valid point; for me, though, any configuration of 12 from your Alice Cooper list doesn't even come close. (And no, I haven't made lists either--just intuiting.)

i'd say Public Enemy not being in is the most shocking

You can only get voted in 25 years after your debut record, so PE still has a few years to go. They're shoo-ins once they're eligible.

One last point. If you square off Alice Cooper against any of those people, I think he gets trounced at both ends of what Bill James calls the peak value/career value distinction: i.e., not only is Dylan's best song significantly greater than Alice Cooper's best song (whatever you think those might be), if anything the gap continues to widen as you work down to their 28th- or 37th-greatest songs (whatever you think those might be). I'd say a non-entity like the 5th Dimension even matches up better, in that they can at least throw up "Wedding Bell Blues" in the peak-value category, which I count as much greater than Alice Cooper's best song, and much closer to whatever Dylan's is. (No, I do not expect a single person on here to agree with me.)

Wrong. "School's Out" and "Eighteen" = anything any of those bands have done. (And when I made a list of my Top 100 songs ever for Radio On in the early '90s, I listed neither of those -- and nothing by any of those other acts, I don't think -- but did list "Teenage Lament '74." So there you go.)

And sorry, I love him a lot of the time too, but Neil Young probably doesn't even belong in the race.

Ouch--Neil belongs with anybody. Dylan, the Beatles, Jesus, Don Knotts, anybody.

xhuxk, is your Top 100 songs list online anyplace?

xpost

xp I mean, I agree that if you're talking top 50s, maybe even top 30s, Dylan and the Stones beat Alice, easily. I would rank both of them over him over all, sure. But by then, we're not exactly talking "greatest songs."

is your Top 100 songs list online?

No, I don't think so. But just for kicks, here's the Top 10. (Just remember this was a snapshot in time, though -- not saying I'd agree with all of it now. Just some of it. Also, I went with Top 100 singles I guess, not songs per se'. And a couple of the two-siders may not even have been technically singles.) Still:

1. "Gipsy Road," Cinderella
2. "Hot Stuff"/"Bad Girls," Donna Summer
3. "Let It Out (Let It All Hang Out)," The Hombres
4. "That's The Joint," Funky Four Plus One
5. "Williams Avenue"/"Valerie," Quarterflash
6. "Wipe Out," Surfaris
7. "Western Gangster Town"/"Rock Skate Roll Bounce," Trickeration
8. "Electrica Salsa," The Off
9. "Children Of Paradise," Boney M
10. "Living In Japan"/"Sing Another Song," Fun Fun

"Teenage Lament '74" finished #85.

Dylan, Stones, Velvets, Neil Young, Sex Pistols placed 0 songs total.

Boney M place 5 singles (totalling 8 songs) in the Top 47 alone. (Guess I was on a kick then.) When do they get into the Hall of Fame?

well they're disco, so never

Well, Abba made it, right?

(No, I do not expect a single person on here to agree with me.)0

^ Man, if you start applying SABR-metrics to music, there will be no more need for ILM

Abba aren't disco

We want the other 90!

What do you mean "we," Kemo Sabe?

xp Kinda agree, Tom (though Abba were sometimes disco, and Boney M weren't just disco.) But they were definitely the two Europop groups that ruled the Un-American planet in the late '70s.

Sometimes, yes, but not very often

xp Btw, speaking of Radio On, Phil Dellio once proved via Bill James formulas that Milli Vanilli were better than Dylan. (Had to do with Dylan having way more albums that were obviously worse than Girl You Know It's True than were obviously better.) So I'm not sure how much I trust SABR-metrics in general.

SABR metrics measure individuals largely for their capacity to contribute to team effort, so it would be an odd way to compare solo artists or bandleaders.

Man, if you start applying SABR-metrics to music, there will be no more need for ILM

I don't know--obviously you can't start quantifying the value of music through complicated formulas, but I've always thought James's peak value vs. career value distinction applies very well to artistic careers, whether it be music, film, or anything else. Peak value = Neil Young (Everybody Knows - Zuma)/Rod Stewart (An Old Raincoat - Never a Dull Moment)/Robert Altman (MASH - Nashville), career value = Neil Young/Rod Stewart/Robert Altman over the long slog. Some people are all peak value (X-Ray Spex), some all career value (the Police); people who are all peak value are invariably much more interesting than people who are all career value. Some have lots of both. Some--Brewer & Shipley--have neither. (I take that back--"One Toke Over the Line"'s pretty good!)

seriously why don't you just put a gun to music's head and end it

seriously

Come to think of it, I think a lot of the polls on ILM take the peak value/career value split as a given.

let's ruin everything with overthinking!

i'd say Public Enemy not being in is the most shocking

You can only get voted in 25 years after your debut record, so PE still has a few years to go. They're shoo-ins once they're eligible.

― kornrulez6969, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:31 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

oh, ok -- i thought that maybe there was something pre-yo bum rush which is why they were included.

Absolutely my objective in saying that Neil Young was at his greatest from Everybody Knows to Zuma--I want to ruin everything.

Thinking, generally, is not a bad thing.

So what is this Public Enemy single from before they were called Public Enemy that everybody keeps talking about? I can't believe I've never even heard of that before.

"Check out the Radio" by Spectrum City

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU6OKHU7fLo

btw I'm not against THINKING or discussing music actually

i just think bringing douchey fantasy baseball statistics bullshit into music discussions is a pretty poor substitute for actual thought

yeah i agree, 100%. overthinking--generally not a good idea

also clemenza i get the sneaking impression you actually haven't *heard* some of the classic alice cooper records and are just building up this house of cards faux mathematical thing as a smokescreen to disguise the fact that you don't know wtf you are talking about.

(xhukx - spectrum city was basically a mobile DJ thing that played parties on long island, was basically chuck d and the core of the bomb squad dudes, i think chuck just started rapping because that was becoming the fashion for the dj crews to have rappers)

Actually, Marsh did write that (blue book) T. Rex entry. (Probably what you meant to say.)

Whoops. I actually though someone else had written that entry. His Bolan praise in the 1001 singles book fucked with my memory of the blue RS book.

(I take that back--"One Toke Over the Line"'s pretty good!)

^^ you just be glad you put this part in

also clemenza i get the sneaking impression you actually haven't *heard* some of the classic alice cooper records and are just building up this house of cards faux mathematical thing as a smokescreen to disguise the fact that you don't know wtf you are talking about.

clemenza is actually Alice Cooper

Dylan has more homers but Alice Cooper has more stolen bases. Velvets lead in hit-by-pitch.

Mr Jiggalo: I've heard all of the songs Chuck listed, albeit not yesterday--should I have relistened to each and every one before posting? And, as I mentioned way upthread, I'm approaching this as someone who loved Alice Cooper back in 1973, when I was 12 years old. I just, kind of, moved on.

Milli Vanilli used steroids

I haven't heard any of the classic alice cooper albums but I have no desire to after having heard lots of alice cooper singles. do the albums sound less like novelty songs you would play at a halloween party?

Come to think of it, I think a lot of the polls on ILM take the peak value/career value split as a given.

― clemenza, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:44 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The difference between music and sports and why these formulas dont work is that if an artist falls off the rails you can just ignore the bad shit. I am a huge Black Sabbath fan, but I don't listen to any of the Tony Martin shit because I think it sucks. It has no bearing on how great Vol. 4 is. But when Dale Murphy forgets how to hit, or Steve Sax forgets how to throw, or Willie Mays plays outfield for the Mets like he is perpetually shitfaced, you have to take that into consideration because they are still sinking their team, and this is impossible to ignore.

True enough, but again, career value/peak value isn't a formula; it's just an acknowledgement that when somebody says "I love Neil Young," they may be making a general statement about his whole body of work, or they might be zeroing in on his greatest work. I always name Neil Young as my favourite artist ever, but the truth is, I'm zeroing in on that Everybody Knows[i] - [i]Zuma period when I say it; I'm not thinking about the albums he made in the '90s and 2000s, most of which I don't even own.

Yeah, but they don't go and take last years trophy off them. (xpost)

Autotune = pine tar

True, but using sports metrics to gauge artistic merit, even getting into Hall of Fame type shit, just doesnt work. Even those ridiculous 100 best guitarist things that Rolling Stone periodically shits out are utterly ridiculous.

xpost

And when someone puts up a poll on, say, the best Rolling Stones album between Beggars Banquet and Exile (I'm picking that out of the air, not saying such a poll exists), aren't they implicity suggesting something akin to peak value, even if they don't use those specific words?

clearly 2006 is their strongest year, I mean they made it to the super bowl

Great! And yes, James's formulas give them extra credit for making it to the big show.

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17504&stc=1&d=1232422631

I don't know why people are talking as if clemenza's suggestions are so far out of left field (sorry).

Every Joy Division vs New Order discussion comes down to two perfect albums + a bunch of perfect singles vs a lot of really good albums and singles spread out over a longer stretch of time. We talk about career value vs peak value on this board all this time, and even though we might not call it that, the concept is hardly new.

Thank you!

In all seriousness, I guess I'm usually a career value guy. I like artists with sprawling messy discographies with lots of cul de sacs and byways to explore and find connections between (The Fall, Rush, Sun City Girls, Robyn Hitchcock, Dylan etc)

But then when forced to make a list of my favorite records they tend to include mostly peak value things (Laughingstock, Tilt, A Walk Across The Rooftops, Golden Age Of Wireless etc)

Every Joy Division vs New Order discussion comes down to two perfect albums + a bunch of perfect singles vs a lot of really good albums and singles spread out over a longer stretch of time.

As long as those "two perfect albums" are Power, Corruption & Lies and Technique, I am okay with this discussion.

Both better than Closer and/or Unknown Pleasures, much as I love them both.

Every Joy Division vs New Order discussion

and neither of those very fine, influential bands is in the R&R HoF either. and yes, that's a damn shame.

i mean, i can see why the rockist old farts may balk @ New Order (given that the Cure and Depeche Mode aren't in there b/c Wenner, Marsh et. al. don't think they're "rock" enough). but considering all of the critical ink that's been spilled over Joy Division?!?

I think I'm a peak-value-nestled-into-career-value guy. As with the Neil Young example cited above, I love the Beatles for their career value, but I love the Beatles even more for their peak value (which, for me, resides in With the Beatles - Revolver). And I definitely think a meteoric peak value (like Tommy James in the late '60s) leaves behind much greater music than a dutiful career value (for me, somebody like the Pretenders).

It just occurs to me that I've been accused on this thread of a) letting other people do my thinking for me, and b) overthinking. Any bids on letting other people do my overthinking for me?

xxxpost

I knew somebody would say that! I personally think that "Unknown Pleasures" is the only perfect JD album, "Technique" is the only perfect NO album, and NO's best five singles >> JD's best five singles (although LWTUA > any NO single). But the main thing is that NO's longevity is usually their strongest asset in the discussion.

but considering all of the critical ink that's been spilled over Joy Division?!?

in the US though?

Oops--make that Beatles for Sale - Revolver.

It just occurs to me that I've been accused on this thread of a) letting other people do my thinking for me, and b) overthinking. Any bids on letting other people do my overthinking for me?

you forget c) being Alice Cooper

http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/media/alice_cooper.jpg

"I think I'm a peak-value-nestled-into-career-value guy."

So Clemenza, I definitely don't want to put words in your mouth, so just checking: are you basically saying that you think you outgrew Alice Cooper, because even his best stuff was mere music for 12-year-olds, and sensible grownups should be beyond that? Because if so, that's really sad. (I've moved on from some music too, obviously, and sometimes I like music specifically aimed at grown folks a lot. But I can't think of any great music I've ever really outgrown, agewise.)

The things I have outgrown tend to be music for 15-21 year olds. Stuff for 7-12 year olds I like more than ever and stuff for old people is awesome.

I didn't use the word outgrow, although I'll have to think about that--in Alice Cooper's case, it may apply, although it still seems unduly harsh. There's tons of music from '72 that means as much or more to me today than when I loved it at the age of 12; as I've written elsewhere before (many times), I believe that the music that reaches you when you're 12 or 13 makes the deepest impression of all in your life (one of many reasons I love The Virgin Suicides so much). And I still like "School's Out," and I still like "I'm Eighteen," and I still like "Elected"--just not ready to make the leap that any of them rank with "Heroin" or "Cinnamon Girl" and the rest. But...yeah; past a certain age, I guess I did start to think of Alice Cooper's shtick as pretty corny, just as I did Kiss's. (Which doesn't change the fact that I still count seeing Kiss and Blue Oyster Cult in '76 an autobiographical highlight...it's all very complicated, isn't it?)

xp Though come think of it, I don't really get how "Don’t steal, don’t lift/Twenty years of schoolin’/And they put you on the day shift/Look out kid/They keep it all hid" is aimed at somebody very much older than "I got a baby's brain and an old man's heart/Took eighteen years to get this far/Don't always know what I'm talkin' about/Feels like I'm livin' in the middle of doubt," but maybe I'm missing something.

And you can love Alice's songs but scoff at his schtick (same goes for Dylan, Neil, Lou, and the rest really); it's not all that difficult. (I think his music itself got corny at a certain point in his career -- circa Welcome To My Nightmare, to be specific, though he did some great songs later -- but that goes for all those other guys, too.)

Yes...If you're saying my prefence for Dylan/Neil/Stones/Velvets/Pistols over Alice Cooper resides in the fact that their lyrics were aimed at adults and Alice Cooper's at teenagers, that's quite an extrapolation from anything I've written here. I'm pretty sure every Sex Pistols song was aimed at teenagers, not to mention every great Dylan and Stones song from '65/66.

uh no

waht

And just as a very obvious, mundane observation, I think it is more difficult to separate Alice's music from his schtick (or Kiss's, or Lady Gaga's, or anybody else wildly theatrical) than it is to separate Neil Young's songs from his schtick (plaid shirts?).

Roxy Music, Bowie, early Pet Shop Boys = all used schtick, wrote great songs.

I'm really and truly not anti-schtick...there's good schtick and bad (or at least tiresome) schtick. Don Rickles calling David Letterman a hockey puck: good schtick! Late Woody Allen, tiresome schtick. Alice Cooper? Well, I just lost the magic somewhere along the way.

AC's shtick is more reflected in his music than those other folks. There are chunks of Killer, School's Out & Billion Dollar Babies that sound like they're meant to provide background for the stage show, dancing teeth, whatever. They detract, on the whole.

Thank you! (Every 46 posts I issue a personal thank-you to someone who sides with me.)

I think it is more difficult to separate Alice's music from his schtick (or Kiss's, or Lady Gaga's, or anybody else wildly theatrical)

Why is it hard, though? I'm serious. Just don't look at a picture (or think about the stage show) when you're listening to the songs.

Kinda soured on AC, actually, when I saw him open for Heaven and Hell a couple summers ago. Looked tired, and there was a lot of woman-slapping going on in the show. Maybe he was trying to make a larger point. Dylan at least has the courtesy to do it offstage.

I'm channelling "School's Out" right now...trying...trying...just can't do it.

I mean, yeah, the best of the best of AC is really great. I was just saying that the schtick can get in the way of the songs, by lengthening them beyond single-length for instance.

Fwiw, I just wrote this about Gaga as part of a comment on Dave Moore's tumblr two days ago: "I guess it's just bothered me that people (both people who like her and people who don't) seemingly find it so difficult to separate her outward artistic affectations (which I'm still not particularly here or there on, though the 'Bad Romance' video is kind of a trip) from her music." It's honestly not a reaction I relate to. The music is over here; the image is over there. Guess I'm just weird.

I think Lady Gaga's schitck and her music are eisier to separate than Alice and his. I like schitck, on the whole. Rock stars should be rock stars. But they don't need to make side-long suites in tribute to West Side Story, you know?

YES THEY DO

(sorry, I really like West Side Story and think more things should follow its lead)

Which is a good time to mention that I think it works both ways. I finally saw Lady Gaga's "Telephone" video yesterday, and absolutely loved it. It all starts with the song, yes, but in this instance, all the bells and whistles made the song even more exciting. Can I logically explain why Lady Gaga's schtick worked for me in that context while Alice Cooper's doesn't anymore? Well, either it's because her schtick is newer, or else it's something I can't explain.

the fact that you're Alice Cooper.

It's easy for me to separate schtick if you didn't grow up with MTV, as I fortunately did. Madonna fer instance came to me as a radio, not a video personality.

fwiw i saw the Billion Dollar Babies show at Madison Square Garden, like, the day before my Geometry regents. Me & Alice go way back.

I'm pre-MTV too, but even when I heard "School's Out" on the radio in 1973, I'm guessing--I can't be sure here--I was well aware of Alice Cooper's image. And as someone who caught up with Madonna around True Blue (late, I know--blame Husker Du), and was a big fan for at least the next few years, I was cognizant of every "image makeover" as it happened. I didn't dwell on that stuff, but it was there, in the background. I don't really have a point here...

I noticed some Madonna makeovers, didn't notice others, probably could almost never have accurately told you what she looked like at a given moment if you quizzed me. As for "School's Out," I thought of it almost like "Happy Birthday," or "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" or something. An occasional song. Had nothing to do with this guy called Alice Cooper who I'd no doubt seen some pictures of but never really paid attention to; had to do with all of us kids at Our Lady Of Refuge, and it being June. As far as I could tell, that's how pretty much everybody heard it then. Same goes with "Eighteen," probably, to a certain extent.

Then we went to different schools...my friends and I were very much into the whole nine yards; whether or not Ace was from another planet was a big part of the appeal.

Well, I wasn't a music fan then -- just a baseball fan.

Anyway, weren't you more preoccupied with Aurelio Rodriguez baseball cards at the time anyway!? :)

Yeah. And I was also a dinosaur fan. I thought this one kid John Gallo's T-shirt seemed cool because it said "T. Rex" on it.

1973: a dinosaur fan. 1986: a Dinosaur fan. 2010: neither!

2010: A "D.I.N.O.S.U.R." fan! (Also a Dinosaur L fan, still. I even got 24 --> 24 Music for Christmas; it's great.)

Oops, spelled the Ke$ha song wrong. (Like the Dinosaur L one way better than that boring CD from a couple years ago where Arthur Russell wears a cowboy hat on the cover.)

I'd also like to post a correction: I begin and end the same sentence with "anyway," like I'm Paul McCartney & Wings or something.

One last thought, xhuxk...there's always one last thought. You kind of intimate above that I've committed some unforgivable breach by suggesting I've moved on from/outgrown Alice Cooper ("because if so, that's really sad"). Sincere question: how is that any different from, just to pick some random examples, moving on from/outgrowing Husker Du or the Replacements?

you're Alice Cooper.

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:29 PM (58 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

clemenza i question your ability to either a) bro down or b) rock out

xp Well, I still like both the Replacements and Husker Du okay (at least up until they started making really dull records). But even when I loved loved loved them, I never thought it was because I was, say, 24 or whatever, and that by the time I was 27 I was just too old. (I said above that I'd moved on from lots of music, though; never denied that.)

I rocked out in 1977, I rocked out again in 1983, then I got tired. I haven't yet bro'd down, but I'm looking for a project this summer, so I may look into it.

I think "outgrow" doesn't just refer to chronological age, though; you can outgrow something emotionally, and--like you, I don't want to put words in your mouth--my guess is that you'd felt, by the late '80s, you'd sort of outgrown a lot of the music you'd championed in the mid '80s.

I think if those '71-73 Alice Cooper studio albums sounded as overdriven and fuzzed-out as that live 1971 Youtube clip I posted above, it would be easier for their appeal to translate to the musical landscape of 2010. I think their impact is muted a bit by "tasteful" production, at least on the clips that I heard.

I don't see how music in 2010 sounds less "tasteful" than music in 1971.

No, no - I'm just saying that nowadays people expect a different, crunchier guitar sound on "heavy metal". In the early-to-mid 70s lots of "heavy metal" still had a fairly clean guitar sound on record. Blue Oyster Cult is another example. When you compare the studio album to a live clip the difference is striking.

xp I mean, I guess there's way more swear words now. And metal got uglier vocals. So there's that. But if anything, I think music nowadays sounds a lot more reined in, less crass, than music did then.

And Clemenza, I just think my tastes changed, as I heard more stuff and had a wider context to put Husker/Replacements/whoever into. I mean, that happens with everybody, if they're paying attention, I would think. No way to avoid it. But maybe I misinterpreted your associating liking Alice Cooper at 12 with being 12 in the first place.

(Okay, just saw o.nate's answer.)

xpost There are a tremendous number of counter-examples to that though, see proto-doom thread-- guitar sounds were made in the early 70s whose heaviness and filthiness are rarely encountered today.

One of the things I think is really interesting about listening to Love it to Death in 2010 is that the music sounds like some carefully-crafted guitar rock that would be discussed on the Rolling Indie thread, with scratchy vocals and attitude you'd find on the Rolling Punk-non-Indie-underground. There's not much that resembles anything being discussed on Rolling Metal 2010. "Sun Arise" = some band opening for Animal Collective.

You did misinterpret...and the more stuff/wider context argument applies no less to my loss of enthusiam for Alice Cooper. For one thing, I discovered the New York Dolls (after the fact--I was barely aware of them in '73), and realized that they were doing some of the same things as Alice Cooper but a trillion times better.

xxxp

I'm not saying every band did this in the '70s. I'm sure it depended on the label, producer, etc. But I do think that if those AC and BOC records were being made nowadays, they would have likely gone with a heavier, more distorted guitar sound, just because that's what the audience expects.

too bad alice cooper and BOC didn't use horrible Line 6 pedals and Galien Kruger amps, i guess modern cats will never dig them

For one thing, I discovered the New York Dolls (after the fact--I was barely aware of them in '73), and realized that they were doing some of the same things as Alice Cooper but a trillion times better.

yeah they really improved on alice cooper band by being less creative, having way less range, worse songwriting, and being way worse players

and i like the NY Dolls but they really only made one good album and a handful of other good tracks, plus all their songs are exactly one minute too long

Think this was a conscious choice on BOC's part-- they were even being billed as the 'American Black Sabbath' and surely if they had wanted to mimic Iommi's nightmarish gtr tone they could have.

"Way worse players"--yes, I do believe you may be right there. They were also worse than Gentle Giant!

guyz this is what the rock and roll hall of fame does to us -- makes us start saying "this dude is better than that dude." ;_;
Alice Cooper and Neil Young are both great! I love them both!

Man, call in Rodney King.

xpost

of course now that you're faced with 5 classic alice albums and one and a half great NY Dolls albums all your fantasy baseball stats are out the window correct?

http://4tenderheart.com/HUGS_001.JPG

Back up, Yojimbo--I think I made it clear earlier that there are special cases like the Pistols and Velvets. And the Dolls definitely join them in that category.

It's the Sandy Koufax category.

so, relief pitchers

pinch runners

You know, yeah, Gentle Giant were super intricate, but they were also concise. They never did a track longer than 7 minutes iirc. They had hook-sense and killer vocals. If you want to find a precursor for King Crimson's Discipline it's GG.

/sermon

ie there are better scapegoats for the 'empty skillz' tag

kinda of like if sandy koufax pitched one season and half the games he stumbled on the mound drunk, punked on himself, threw a beer bottle at someone and then went home

And by the way, you seem to assume that your 5-vs.-1.5 scoring is correct. Hard as it may be for you to believe, there are people such as myself who'd score it 2-0 for the Dolls.

what the hell are you guys talking about

lol punked on himself

where do coaches fit into this amazing analogy

Think this was a conscious choice on BOC's part

It may have been. I'm reminded of the way Muddy Waters was recorded by Chess in the late '40s. His live show was undoubtedly much louder, more raucous and more rockin' than what got recorded, because Chess didn't let him use his live band and insisted on him playing acoustic tracks without drums, because that's what they thought would sell. It may have worked at the time, but now when you listen back to that era, you wish you could hear what his live band sounded like instead.

New York Dolls... were doing some of the same things as Alice Cooper but a trillion times better.

Emphasis on "some of." (Also, I love the Dolls, but no they weren't.)

haha i just punkd myself

btw jon lewis is bringing some street prog GG knowledge

Let me apologize to Jon Lewis--I used to own Gentle Giant's double-live, and yes, they had some catchy songs. There was one I really liked--"Playing the Fool"? Anyway, they've just become kind of a quick and easy punchline for me over the years; if it's the '80s, I use Doctor & the Medics, the '60s Freddie & the Dreamers. But you're right.

seriously though, next time you listen to the dolls keep that "minute too long" thing i said, a friend told me that and i've never been able to ignore it, like the tracks are just too long

xpost I usually use Triumvirat for this purpose.

Gorge breaks it down:

Rick Moody defends Gentle Giant

With all this talk about prog and epics maybe it's time there was a GENTLE GIANT ALBUMS POLL

Emphasis on "some of." (Also, I love the Dolls, but no they weren't.)

Um, yes they were. (Wow, that was easy.)

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/alicecooper-golf.jpg
can't we all just get along?

Jesus, Rodney's aged.

is there a good johanson pic in the "show me pictures of men that look like old lesbians thread"?

ugh what the hell is going on in here

Heh that Rick Moody Defends GG thread is pretty nice. And the Sherman Hemsley payoff is super whoa! Thanks for linking it xhuxk.

gentle giant ruled, and alice cooper stomps on the dolls in pretty much every category

plus as woeful as some late period alice is, if you contrast it against the output of buster poindexter i am pretty sure where the points are going to fall

We've found a point of agreement, Bigalow; next to David J., Alice practically looks like GQ fodder these days.

"alice cooper stomps on the dolls in pretty much every category"

So true. The Dolls weren't Sandy Koufax, they were Bo Belinsky.

watching phish play genesis' "watcher in the skies" to an audience of iggy pop and meryl streep was certainly a WTF moment. no-one appeared to be having a good time.

I like the Bo Belinsky connection--he was married to Mamie Van Doren, and no one captures the spirit of the Dolls better than Mamie Van Doren--but I must issue forth with a very resigned sigh and vacate this madhouse for a while.

Before you go, Clemenza, one thing: leave the gun, take the cannoli.

xp But at least one musical artist was more Mamie Van Doren-like than the Dolls:

http://www.discogs.com/Mamie-Van-Doren-State-Of-Turmoil/release/1225710

Mostly German Old Used 45s That Metal Mike Saunders Mailed To Me

Bill--te salute!

I prefer the dolls but c'mon ppl if there's one thing every rock nerd learns young it's "don't even start with ppl who are really into alice cooper" -- it's like asking your dad what he thinks about the president: you really wanna spend the rest of the evening hearing the answer?

I didn't put you through college to sit here and listen to this bullshit!

M@tt I could kiss you for making me lol so hard

remove the lol from that sentence and we're talkin.

why don't you come over here and remove it yourself big boy

let's not turn this into a Rush thread guys

I thought J0hn and matt were quoting KISS lyrics again.

just sounds like two bros enjoying Rush together to me.

Just think: a man might have kissed me in high school had I spent more time with Signals.

Resurrected!
Clearly a lot of people here love Alice Cooper to death (to coin a phrase). In the wake of Alex Chilton’s passing, I’ve actually been feeling somewhat guilty today: “Geez, if Alice Cooper goes anytime soon, I’m going to be the most hated guy on this board. Maybe I better back up and do some more ‘splainin’.” So, go back to my first post on this thread: “I guess you could make a case for Kiss and/or Alice Cooper...though I wouldn't make it myself.” I basically went through the same thing with Andre Dawson on the I Love Baseball board. It’s another way of saying that when and if Alice Cooper goes in, I’ll be okay with that. I wouldn’t put him in myself, but fine.
Whatever HOF you’re talking about, you can approach from it from the lowest-common-denominator angle, from the inner-circle angle, or from the great gray area between. The lowest-common-denominator angle says that since my guy’s better than the worst guy already in there--Billy Joel for me, somebody else for you--keeping my guy out is a grave injustice. And if that’s your guiding principle, Alice Cooper clearly belongs; he’s more qualified than a number of people already in there. But if you subscribe to the inner-circle theory, that only the very greatest belong in any HOF, even if that means that some years nobody goes in (not just a hypothetical; I know someone who holds rigidly to that theory with regards to the baseball HOF; he’d probably deny entrance to Tom Glavine), then I can’t see that Alice Cooper belongs. Which was basically my point in saying that he wasn’t at the level of Bob Dylan or the Rolling Stones. I had no idea that saying Alice Cooper didn’t measure up to Bob Dylan would cause such consternation.
In between the one extreme and the other, you can argue.
I have (hopefully) one last question for xhuxk. You suggest that moving on from Husker Du and the Replacements was perfectly normal--wider context, expanding horizons, etc.--but thought it was odd (“sad” even; scuzzy-sad or tragic-sad, you don’t specify) that I’d moved on from Alice Cooper. Help me out here. You were in you mid-20s, I was 12; it seems to me that, in the normal course of events, one’s horizons and contexts are more libel to get widened and expanded at 12 than at 25. I’m not saying that’s a hard-and-fast rule, and obviously one's horizons should always be expanding. I just come up against a disconnect there. (Don’t mean to harp on this, but I’ve often written about how, when it comes to music, the 12-year-old me is a bigger part of the 48-year-old me than any other me ever. So you pushed a button there.)

Guess you can't paragraph on here...Meant to say that I approach HOFs from the gray area in between. But between the lowest-common-denominator theory and the inner-circle theory, I definitely tilt inner-circle.

Hey Clemenza -- I think the sadness I mentioned is directly connected to what you're talking about; i.e., seems to me people seem to to talk way more often about "outgrowing" the sort of music they liked when they were 12 (i.e., to deny themselves the pleasure of it later in life) than they talk about outgrowing music they liked when they were 25. In a way, in fact, "music 12 year olds like" is almost its own genre; has been for several decades now, certainly longer than "music 25 year olds like." Which may be why I read what I read into your explanation of giving up Alice. (And, in fact, you didn't actually deny later that you'd outgrown his music, agewise; you even acknowledged that that might be a possibility. Which is fine. But it'd still be sad.)

wow, Depeche Mode; The Cure; Hall and Oates; ELO; T-Rex.

lotta good choices (i'd say journey, too, but i realize that's a CRAZY choice).

It just hit me: Momus is eligible, y'all.

Still a disconnect. We're arguing from the same starting point here: we both think (at least I do; I think you do too) that what you love as a 12-year-old means a lot. So if Al Green and Badfinger, Todd Rundgren and "You Wear It Well," the Carpenters and the Spinners and "Anticipation" make me swoon even more today than they did then--and they meant a lot to me then--then I just don't see the fact that, for me, Alice Cooper turned out to be a casualty of that era as being particularly sad. I mean, not everybody's going to survive, right? "Daddy, Don't You Walk So Fast" didn't make the cut either, and I think I liked that at the time, too. And I definitely don't see that leaving behind Husker Du or the Replacements is any less sad, being a big Husker Du and Replacements fan.

It just hit me: Momus is eligible, y'all.

i'd vote for him before i'd vote for billy joel.

Al Green and Badfinger, Todd Rundgren and "You Wear It Well," the Carpenters and the Spinners and "Anticipation" make me swoon even more today than they did then

C'mon, this is getting tired. You didn't point this out til now; how would I know? (Though, duh, I think I've finally figured out who you are.) And when you first talked about leaving behind Alice at 12, and I asked you whether you thought you'd outgrown him just because you got older (and then you said that maybe you had), I'm pretty sure you hadn't mentioned any other music you liked then. But fine -- I get it now.

Surprised it took you so long. (To figure out who I am, not to get it.)

Well, who the hell are you, Vincent Furnier?

Clue: I mentioned him by name earlier on the thread, not knowing he was actually here.

Surprised it took you so long

Blame all this cheap SXSW beer.

So is Clemenza Neil or Bob? ;)

clemenza is actually Alice Cooper

― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:56 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark

And he's outgrown himself. Larvae style.

clemenza is either rick moody or gorge?

As much fun as it is being the center of speculation, don't waste your curiosity--finding out who I am would elicit a resounding "Who?" It's between the brothers, Kay--xhuxk and I go way back, and we were just sparring a little.

I've figured it out - or at least I've found a writer mentioned on this thread who likes baseball and Neil Young.

loved the ice storm btw : )

Come over here, kid, learn something. You never know, you might have to explain why you don't like Alice Cooper to 20 guys someday.

did you ever listen to rush pete????

Pete: :)!

You can't hurry Rush.

Kraftwerk

hmmmm voted Heart here altho Moody Blues is pretty shocking as well

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

PE fans really fulla shit if they really voted for "most shocking" here

I find it strange that 20 people would vote PE when it was already established that they're not eligible yet, so it's the least shocking exclusion by default.

Im pretty sure they will get in eventually.

Just so I can endear myself to a whole new group of people, let me say that if it ever comes down to a choice between Alice Cooper or the Cure, give me Alice Cooper a thousand times over.

Bill will be along to high five you shortly

Moody Blues 1

Hello me.

I find it strange that 20 people would vote PE when it was already established that they're not eligible yet, so it's the least shocking exclusion by default.

Im pretty sure they will get in eventually.

― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, 22 March 2010 00:44 (8 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

When I voted, I did not know that.

OK, switch to "the Zombies" then,.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P19CZn6Cswk&feature=player_embedded#

I find it strange that 20 people would vote PE when it was already established that they're not eligible yet, so it's the least shocking exclusion by default.

Maybe they thought it read "Most Shocklee" exclusion.

who knew Chicago were so popular round here

Bon Jovi 6
KISS 6

Wait til Alex In NYC sees that.

xpost - popularity 'round here is a non-issue! I can take or leave Chicago, but I'm surprised that 120 million records sold wasn't enough to get 'em inducted. And presumably the other four voters felt the same.

I didnt vote for them, but I kind of like early Chicago.

i have only the faintest idea of what Chicago even sound like ... are the early records secretly good?

The early records are a lot more interesting than their 80s ballads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soLIZ4W0rZw&feature=related

the 80s ballads are all I know. or rather, one 80s ballad -- "look away, baaaaaby, look away!" love that. that is Chicago, isn't it?

I remember them having a hit of some sorts with a ballad here in the UK in the early 80s because they had a song on Hits 3 or 4 or something. I cant remember what song it was. But I'd be surprised if they sold many records here.

This was their big comeback single (lolling so hard at Rutger Hauer Peter Cetera here, plz let Alex in NYC see this)

actually everything about this video is hilarious and pretty much encapsulates the 80s

Dubious distinction of Chicago being the first band I ever saw live. St Paul Civic Center 1983. I didn't even like them then-- think i was just excited about the idea of seeing a big rock show.

A comedian was the opener (what a grand tradition that was...)

ahh dan, i think that's the song i was trying to remember the name of! Prob their only song that gets played on oldies radio here. Usually played before or after you win again by the bee gees.

oh lol I had the chronology all backwards, this was actually the comeback single:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh9cNYlmXEY

Don't know that one at all. I expect it may have been a minor hit here and missed my 9 year old ears

UK #4 in 1982 according to Wikipedia

i was too busy listening to madness

speaking of minor hits, lol I had forgotten this song existed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyZ4w_OyZx4

P. Cetera lost a certain edge to his voice once he finally had that bowel movement...

This was their big comeback single (lolling so hard at Rutger Hauer Peter Cetera here, plz let Alex in NYC see this)

Yes, the Bauhaus t-shirt has been well documented and outraged over already.

aw

I find it strange that 20 people would vote PE when it was already established that they're not eligible yet, so it's the least shocking exclusion by default.

Maybe they thought it read "Most Shocklee" exclusion.

― President Keyes, Tuesday, March 23, 2010 7:22 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

actual lols

Mea culpa. Halfway through the school year, I started playing music over the P.A. system during morning entry. Our staff has a typical age range of late-20s through to early-50s (I'm close to one end of that spectrum), so I'd mix things up, from the new Cypress Hill single to the Spice Girls to Andy Williams' "Can't Get Used to Losing You." (Loud guitars generally no, although I did play "Good Times Bad Times" one morning.) Anyway, yesterday I got to satisfy a lifelong dream: as the kids filed in, "School's Out" blared. So I'm here to say that Alice Cooper needs to go into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame immediately.

haha! what was the reaction from the kids?

Oddly enough, all 500 of them started chanting "Hall-of-Fame! Hall-of-Fame!" in unison...I spotted at least a couple who obviously knew the song already, which was nice.

http://www.cleveland.com/music/index.ssf/2014/08/rock_and_roll_hall_of_fame_to_2.html

Get him out of there. You need the room for the Police and Rush and Britney Spears.

the rock and roll hall of fame

Pathetically pleased that all four of my inductions predicted upthread came to pass. (I also correctly predicted the top six Oscars in both '83 and '84)

lol alan freed

like he is definitely a huge part of the rock n roll hall of fame for anyone who cares more than an iota about the rock n roll hall of fame. but that group of people really isn't that big. and i say that as someone who cares more than iota!

I've always had a soft spot for Freed, based on American Hot Wax and on a couple of LPs I bought years ago, where he provides intros to a bunch of great doo-wop songs. (They were put out by Roulette, I think towards the end when he was having a hard time.)

http://www.shugarecords.com/images/products/thumb/1b4ce305-51bd-432f-9538-e57b314dbf17-0.jpg

He strikes me a really heroic figure, brought down by the IRS, but really because he played black artists at a time when no one would. I should read a biography, though--I'm sure the story isn't quite that simple.