let's discuss New Order's 'Republic'

http://dkpresents.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/republic-cover.jpg

Always had mixed feelings about this one. I dismissed it when it came out yet listened to it on repeat back in '93.
Hearing it now, I tear up at the sparkly melancholy vibe on that album, epitomized by a song like 'Special' - but I'm not sure whether this is simply the nostalgia speaking.

underrated saville design period imo

"Regret" is one of their best songs, period.

I never really got into this entire album but whenever I stumble across a song from it, it's really really welcome.

"Regret" is one of their best songs, period.

Now we're talking.

Feel free everyone to disagree with me, btw.

"Regret" cannot be praised enough, and I stand by my claim that the final lyric means more to me than the entirety of everything Dylan's ever done.

xp: Yeah I disagree. Not going to do my usual "lists 10 songs he likes better" thing but they've done better songs; doesn't stop this one from being great, though.

xpost Nik Cohn couldn't have said it better.

I always LOVED Regret. Haven't ever listened to this whole album but now that I'm freaking out over the early New Order stuff I guess it's time that I did.

"Regret" is one of their best songs, period.

Seriously, anyone who doesn't love that song is a disgusting savage.

what's the final lyric again?
Just wait for tomorrow, I guess that's what they all say just before they fall apart?

Yeah I always liked that line but no - I can think of a million better Dylan ones.

Yeah but you're not me.

playing "Regret" in a loop with "Mama" by The Sugarcubes

ned breaks just like a little girl.

'Regret' has always been (rightly) praised but it often seems that's the only thing people remember from this album.

"Ruined in a Day" is great, too

the 'World' video is awesome imo but i'm a sucker for one shots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6gBZiiygMk

"Regret" and "Everyone Everywhere" are the masterpieces; "World," "Ruined in a Day," and "Spooky" are filler-plus; the rest is filler, albeit beaty and/or pleasant. Their worst overall since (but waaay better than) the debut.

"All Day Long" will always be my fave New Order but "Regret" probably follows right behind.

It's impossible to assess this album. Discovering New Order in the interim between this and Technique, you couldn't imagine how stoked I was for this. When my college radio station "world premiered" "Regret" in April 2003 I had a tape at the ready. What can I say? I was prepared to love it all.

With the benefit of hindsight, I can hear how the album sounded dated even in 1993. The band's been mum about the circumstances under which they recorded the thing (other than to say that it was recorded in an "atmosphere of impending doom"), but to my ears it'ss mostly Bernard and Stephen Hague with a bunch of keyboards and sequences, with Hooky's bass injected here and there (and neither here nor there for the most part). "Chemical" and "Spooky" are second-tier Electronic songs.

All that said, "Everyone Everywhere" is a fabulous song, up there with "Regret." The fadeout as the guitars and synths merge into that sunlight goodness that's New Order's specialty – it's something special.

Speaking of which, "Special" is pretty good too: one of Barney's dark nights of the soul ("I wake up every night on the stairs waiting for the dawn to come...")

*sequencers

I'm also fond of "World," which was remixed quite ably and is a lost club classic.

I can hear how the album sounded dated even in 1993

Its eternal problem. It's very much a neither here nor there release, and the collapse of Factory couldn't've helped. But the singles all work still.

he band's been mum about the circumstances under which they recorded the thing

prozac, hell of a drug iirc

I never really got into this entire album but whenever I stumble across a song from it, it's really really welcome.

^^^ This. I really didn't like it in '93 (yeah, dated-even-then is a good description) but last time I put it on I was pleasantly surprised.

The album's also an elegy for a certain aesthetic too: how bands mixed keyboards into their arrangements. Think of "Ruined in a Day" or "Regret." They were the last stabs at this sort of thing until many years after the Britpop wave crested and broke.

I really appreciate how they took this album as a launching pad for their subsequent work, combining with Technique to turn my appreciation of New Order from "the band with the epic singles" to "the band that seems to effortless fart fantastic albums". I've been blasting Get Ready all weekend.

You've been rocking the shack?

didn't pulp's chick keyboard player single them out from the britpop herd?

Lol, I remember tuning into Radio 1 for the premier of Regret and being really disappointed. I called my friend and moaned that New Order had "gone grunge".

Which was obviously totally stupid of me. After a few listens I loved it.

The first half of the album is really strong (basically the singles and the singles and "Everyone Everywhere") but most of the second half is fairly pedestrian (for New Order). "Regret" is definitely one of the top five singles of their career.

You've been rocking the shack?

I've been rocking the shack and running someone like you wild like crystal at close range going 60 MPH with a primitive notion of a vicious streak turning a slow jam my way.

There's a common complaint about this album that the production is a bit off - Hooky's bass is pretty low in the mix.

I love Republic. The most hated of all New Order albums according to the bone-headed hooligan pricks (aka Vikings) at NOOL. The tracks mentioned already are great (Regret, Special) but my secret fav. is Liar. Terrific lyric slamming Tony Wilson but nothing fancy about the music. I played this album endlessly in 93 and it's still one of my favorites to play start to finish. I do wish Hague hadn't mixed Hooky's bass completely out of the album but then again, maybe Hooky didn't have any good riffs for the tracks. I have never heard any demos from this album but it would be interesting to see if there were some basslines that got lost in the mixing process.

Steven Morris said used Unfinished Sympathy as his inspiration and blueprint for Special.

I do wish Hague hadn't mixed Hooky's bass completely out of the album but then again, maybe Hooky didn't have any good riffs for the tracks.

A little of both, I'd say.

i like The Other Two 'Selfish' more than anything on this album

"Selfish" isn't even as good as "Tasty Fish"

I like this album a lot, it's probably their most underrated record.

I remember reading a review in Q for the box set saying that it's been scientifically proven that Regret is the best single of all time. I wouldn't go that far but it's a song that I never get tired of and I have to agree with Ned about those last lyrics, I played it recently and they got to me all over again.

I think like Get Ready the rest of the album was overshadowed by the lead single but there's plenty of great songs here. World, Ruined In a Day, Special and Everyone Everywhere would all be fighting for a place on my New Order best of, which would be quite an epic compilation.

I'm not surprised Unfinished Sympathy was named as an influence for Special the strings at the end are a complete rip off.

Selfish" isn't even as good as "Tasty Fish"

rong

"Selfish" is a terrific Saint Etienne single.

hmmmm i have never heard this album AFAIK.

ned and dan will be any minute now to murder me

Amazon always has cheap copies.

It's $0.01 on Amazon.com or 44p on Amazon.

That was 44p on Amazon.co.uk obviously.

ned and dan will be any minute now to murder me

We could do that, or we could let drunk guys call you a Nazi, whatever works.

yeah i think i'll just go do that (amazon). another one of those where the cover art made me sure that the contents were going to go in a direction i wasn't interested in for some stupid reason i think.

xpost thanking you for options ned

Have you at least heard "Regret"?

i dont know? if i have i dont remember it offhand - ill go youtube and report back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgW3_gZwv7o&feature=related

(fwiw I cannot explain why that picture was used for the Youtube)

ok yes i have heard that song. def not rocketing to my top list for new order, but it is fine (note: i am not actually making a firm pronouncement because i am stuck listening to it on my iphone speakers at work, so im thinking some nuances are getting lost)

ok second listen and i am liking it quite a bit more. theres still something a little incidental john-hughes-soundtracky about it that is keeping me at my distance, which is the best explanation i can come up with.

fwiw I think the song is a total earworm grower, especially that chorus

this was the second new order i got, as it was cheap, waaay back in the mid-90s. i remember liking regret and world immediately, but being somewhat disgusted by the rest of it. so slick. so i ditched it when i got the best of, and all the songs i liked were on there. then i REALLY grew to love new order. and so i bought republic again. and, for a while at least, it was my favorite new order album. what doesn't stick on first listen opens up after a while. the melodies are so effortless and confidant. it's got this light air of impending doom. such a strange album. (and liar is my favorite these days).

I've noticed that at least 50% of New Order's drum tracks on the last two albums were more or less exactly the same as those on "Regret." It really jumped out at me that last two times I saw them live.

Anyone else notice the awkward/desperate marketing of Bad Lieutenant as the next step in Joy Division evolution, and the stressing that JD/NO classics will be played live? Actual start of the recent press release:

2010 marks the 30th Anniversary of the critically acclaimed band, New Order!

They will be playing San Francisco, Coachella, Chicago and New York only (see below for dates). The set will include hit songs from Joy Division, New Order and from the new CD as Bad Lieutenant: “Never Cry Another Tear.”

yeah impending doom captures it nicely. I know I'm in the minority liking this song but "Times Change" is pretty symptomatic of that whole vibe on the album. I can kinda picture this album being played at dusk before a motherfucker of a south pacific storm

"Times Change" is yet another Sumner song that uses oboe quite well (Electronic's awesome "Some Distant Memory" is the other).

never heard this album but 'regret' is total classic, probably the first NO song i "really" heard (i knew 'blue monday 88' but not sure what else). even kinda liked the other singles but not enough to pursue further.

I can kinda picture this album being played at dusk before a motherfucker of a south pacific storm

Oh right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzNQMW7-9Mw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOAd2dwuhAc

"Everyone Everywhere" is a fabulous song...

Loved this version, esp. Gillian's legs guitar playing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KO0zeP6ftY

I almost posted that version. I especially love the part where Gilbert mimes strumming the guitar.

(also note barney's witty lyric change - oh, he's such a wag)

Gilbert's guitar ability is best described as 'basic,' innit?

This album was the first time I was disappointed by New Order, which I'm sure was completely devastating to the band. In all seriousness, though, I never fully got back on the bandwagon after Republic, the odd great single aside.

"Regret" and maybe "World" excepted, it just sounded flat and bland.

But this thread has made me want to return to it.

I guess that's what they all say...

"Regret" evokes a time and place to me that no other New Order single does. I love where it takes me. Sigh.

I remember thinking the song sequencing was a bit off on this album. A friend of mine re-arranged the songs to positive effect. I'll have to pull it out to remember how it went.

Anyone else ever notice a fleeting resemblance between "Regret" and the Pretenders' "Talk of the Town." The riff, at least. Though every time the latter comes on I wish it was the former.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1316831073

disliked this album when it came out, like it a lot more now, thought I'd feel that way about get ready but never happened.

never really spent time with this but just went through and I'm sorry but liar is a jam.

Liar and Chemical are the only two songs I could do without here

"Regret" is terribly awesome and means a lot. "Times Change" is vastly underrated despite Barney rappin on tha mic.

When this album came out it felt pretty much like a betrayal to me but damn if I can remember the exact reasons why now beyond the fact that I was bored stiff by it at the time. Suspect, as mentioned above, that the production on it (and I actually kinda liked Hague at the time) and the relative lack of Hooky was part of the issue, but it also seemed a lot more half-assed from a songwriting perspective. My disappointment at the time was so profound that I couldn't even appreciate the good moments. I wasn't able to get fully onboard again until Siren's Call.

I've mentioned elsethread that I've recently noticed "Regret" playing a lot over the PA systems at malls and shops and such, and when hearing it I've been saying to myself, "You know, that song is really quite amazing." So in the spirit of reappraisal, and with all of the good words for the album around these parts lately, I've just bought the album again (after 16 years removed from my collection) and will give it another listen.

Oh, and fwiw at the time I HATED the cover of this album, which probably didn't help with my appreciation for it.

It is a really poor album cover... especially held against the very high standard of their previous covers!

What is the symbolism of the cover?

is it a literal interpretation of certain song titles?

It's a visual interpretation of "Just wait till tomorrow/I guess that's what they all say just before they fall apart."

So I think.

xp

Seems to me to be a modern equivalent of "Nero fiddles while Rome burns" but even so it's poorly executed.

I love the cover and the all the artwork Saville did around this album (singles, etc.). Retrospectively, it seems to echo the aesthetic David Lynch was pushing on Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive, ie. L.A. - the glamourous illusion and the dangerous underbelly.

I can see where you're coming from with that but the styling of it reminds me more of before and after shots in a Viagra ad or something like that.

the singles

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2609/3823145064_0793a81d85.jpg

I do like the "Regret" cover a lot

tbh - the other covers don't carry this bliss/doom duality. There's a coherence in the merging of images and the "Hollywood blockbuster" framing and titling - but I don't really see any overall message (why should I, right?).

Saville:

“To escape the recession in Britain and to escape Pentagram (the London design group) where I’d ended up, I had a kind of Hollywood fantasy. I’d gone to Los Angeles to do a television identity in 1991 and been fascinated by the way Hollywood makes the world look. It’s quite interesting that you feel a bit cheated when you first go to Los Angeles because you realise that to make television and movies they just go out in the street, the whole place is just like a 24 hour movie studio and you drive around Los Angeles and you just keep seeing locations from movies. I came back to London and there was a New Order album (Republic) to do so I did it as a parody of the way the media repackages the world, with slightly cheap titles that look like an HBO movie. It’s what seemed to happen every year in Malibu. Every autumn there are bush fires and everybody’s house burns down and it’s OK because everyone just goes to the beach and builds a new house. It was very strange to us, this was a kind of fantasy. The images came together because Brett was experimenting with what you could do with the blend filter in Photoshop. Within a year we were living in LA. Brett stayed and I didn’t. I couldn’t bear it actually.”

the regret cover kind of echoes richard prince

still stand by my original post itt - in addition to that saville quote, I recall he was pretty obsessed with hyperrealistic, stock photos during this period

I kinda like how Saville leaves out the minor fact that New Order were kinda gods in LA to start with.

haha and we're back to that Baywatch video

It seems that copies of this are a mandatory presence in Canadian used CD shops.

Nothing much new to add to the chorus here. Hearing some of these songs live (notably on the common 'Electronic Ecstasy' bootleg of their Reading '93 performance) made me a lot more sympathetic to the songwriting on this album. Everyone Everywhere is lovely.

Innit that album cover supposed to be full of (accidental) symbolism? Everyone having fun at the beach while the home (Factory) burns down or something to that effect?

I kinda like how Saville leaves out the minor fact that New Order were kinda gods in LA to start with.

were they running the design house he was leaving in London, or the TV station he was doing an ident for in LA?

The "Regret" cover is fantastic. It seems to me to embody the idea of putting the past behind you. The "Ruined in a Day" cover is just awful; a total affront to class and taste.

don't like the droplets on the side of Regret cover - seems more tacked on than the others. they're all so 'we just got photoshop' as to look quite poor and (obv) dated but the strength of the original images survives.

yeah, that water thing is completely unnecessary. it would have worked on the back of the single, i suppose... though the tones of the images are kind of dissimilar.

Suddenly the house-y piano bit in "Spooky" gets me excited.

I've been having the lyrics of Spooky in my head all week

When we kiss we speak as one
With a single breath this world is gone

this period of Saville/ New Order is very similair to Erasure's Chorus album era which was 2 years before, 'stock photo' type stuff etc:

http://eil.com/Gallery/32703b.jpg

http://s.dsimg.com/image/R-972557-1179522706.jpeg

Hah, you're right there. Who was me company (the Chorus designer/s) anyway?

Patiently you wait for me.
You're so blind.
I thought it couldn't be,
then changed my mind.
Drowning in the endless sea.
Line all those lines.
The traces of your memory,
don't belong with mine.

you've got your finger on the pulse
and in my pocket, yes of course

i'm not sure why Liar is so hated. I love that song. Wish someone had asked Tony Wilson what he thought about it.

I think "Chorus" and "Love To Hate You" were when I really started to "get" Erasure.

like for real, the vocal arrangement on "Chorus" is fucking genius

I absolutely adore "Love To Hate You." I had the same experience re finally "getting" them.

a very fun karaoke number too

amor y odio

The singe for Chorus was great. The Justin Robertson remix of Snappy (I think) is still killer. Wild is probably my favorite album of theirs but Chorus was great too. The one that followed was better than expected. After that, I lost interest. Feels like a thread hijack though, and a bit insulting to the most underrated New Order album. Republic is a great album. Could use more Hooky. I'd love to heard demos or early mixes of the tracks from Republic.

I dunno – lots of these tracks sound created in the studio. I could be wrong.

Part of what distinguishes this album from the rest of their catalogue is its cobbled quality.

um, I kind of think everything they did sounded cobbled together up until Technique

Nah. They've all said repeatedly in interviews that Technique marked the first time they worked in shifts. Before they actually played live.

(not at all suggesting the strength of the music reflects this)

I think i read there was a premix of Republic. Guess Steven Hague had a big role in creating the album, not just producing and mixing.

Yeah – he gets co-writing credit on the bulk of the material.

The artwork for this album and singles is my least favorite of any New Order era.

mm Me Company? i wonder who that was. either way the vibe was stock-photos-from-the-world-of-advertising-that-actually-aren't-real-stock-photos. Saville would have seen all that stuff as Erasure were huge at the time. posters, tv ads, poster campaigns everywhere. Blur's 'Great Escape' era also did the same kind of thing.

x-post I think the relative lack of Hook is also Hague's fault. Supposedly he hated his bass tone.

You know, I've never really scoured the New Order credits (not that there's a lot of information there). Is the band generally credited as an entity? How often are there obviously credited co-writers? I suppose I always though of each producer (name producer, at least) as a tacit ghost writer. Esp. '90s New Order and beyond, the arrangements and songs are so much more ... sophisticated, I suppose, than prime New Order. Not better, mind, just all around slicker. They sound less like the product of a band and more like the product of studio.

Seriously, though, is there any other major band short of the Velvet Underground where the behind the scenes machinery is more mysterious? Like, who does what, who plays what, how much, that sort of thing?

Every album b/w PCL and Technique bears the mysterious "written and produced by New Order" credit. They're pretty good at acknowledging co-writer and co-producers (Arthur Baker, Robie, Stephen Hague).

As far as who plays what: twenty years ago I assumed the guitar parts were split pretty evenly between Bernard and Gillian. But every live clip I've seen has shown how limited Gillian's playing is (she holds it as if she's looking at it for the first time).

At the same time, there sometimes seem to be (uncredited?) backing vox, and the guitar on occasion seems above Barney's abilities as well. I'd love to see some fly on the wall clip of them working (Perfect Kiss video sort of does this, but it still gives no idea where the song actually came from). Do any of them do the programming, or do they farm that out, too?

The primitiveness of the early recordings speaks to the DIY nature of their programming. Morris and Sumner have gone on record explaining how they built their own sequencers.

If their solo careers and interviews are any indication, NO comprises three songwriting entities (Sumner, Hooky, and the Other Two). Bernard writes all the lyrics.

Their mystery is their charm. I love how any one of the three guys could have sung on "Ceremony."

Steve Morris and Barney did most of the programming, from what I understand. Morris was quite a computer enthusiast, and Sumner was pretty interested in the electronic side of the band from an early stage.

Who was me company (the Chorus designer/s) anyway?

er, a design company. had links to One Little Indian, still do Bjork's stuff to this day AFAIK

I went to the hotel that's the setting of the "World" video today, did the walk from the stairs to the beach into the hotel & to the right to the stairs...maybe the goofiest rock pilgrimage ever? But it was gorgeous. I also took a boat ride & got the view from the sea as at the start of the video.

can you feel it?

is the place still in black and white or have they finally updated the environs to color?

euler i salute you

It was strange to see it in color! There were lots of people taking photos of the main door but I doubt anyone else was there because of NO---prob film festival things take place at that door? I confess I know nothing about the festival; I went to Cannes today pretty much only because of this video, & Elton John's "I'm Still Standing" (and I was in the neighborhood already).

You were once the main attraction
But all that's in the apst

the past too

Just wanted to say that just because someone "looks as if they are holding a guitar for the first time" does not mean that they *sound* as if they are holding a guitar for the first time.

And to call Gilbert's guitar playing "limited" in a band where Bernard Sumner is a guitarist takes some nerve. The whole thing of why New Order *work* is the ability to do amazing and unbelievably lovely things, with some very "limited" materials.

I pretty much haven't listened to this album since it came out (mostly because I had it on cassette) but I listened to it *so much* when it was released, that I wonder if it has been coded specifically to that time and place of where I was living and where I was at when it was released. Like, if I listen to this record, am I going to instantly smell the New Town Sewer and taste the odd slightly metallic aftertaste of lithium tablets. I do wonder, because I don't really remember much beyond Regret. (Which is so world-breakingly huge and definitely Imperial Phase New Order that it overshadows everything else in its path.)

(Yay! Another thread for me and Alfred to argue about New Order. This is my all-time favourite aspect of ILM. Also, Daniel Kessler remains hotter than Ezra Eyelash-face whatever his name is. So there.)

Republic is a great album. I can listen to it start to finish and I can't say that for many of their albums. Lyrically it's one of Bernard's best efforts. The demise of Factory and the Hacienda provided enough material for him to write about.

Yeah, I felt kinda cheated when it came out (for being too synth-heavy and Hooky-less, which I all interpreted as NO "selling out" - lol) but the years have been very kind to this album, surprisingly. It captures a late summer elegiac feeling, which these days is how I remember my teenage years.

I like this album better than the comeback.

Next comeback, I should say. Get Ready, which has a couple of my least fave NO songs of all time on it.

Oh! I went looking for Get Ready and discovered that, mysteriously, I *do* seem to own this album (second hand CD from Amoeba? When did that happen?)

Up as far as Young Offender, it is way, way better than I have recently given it credit for being.

I think I was just traumatised by Baywatch or something.

so playing this last week, I'm starting to think this is actually one of their best - "Liar" and "Chemical" are the only throwaways.
And for all the talk of Technique and Ibiza, this to me is the real balearic NO deal. That late-summer sunset vibe is all over the album.

oh damn, said exactly the same thing two months ago :(

The whole thing of why New Order *work* is the ability to do amazing and unbelievably lovely things, with some very "limited" materials.
― Branwell Bell, Saturday, April 5, 2014 8:17 PM (1 year ago)

I love this album.

Underrated album. I even like the pretty final track.

I agree. Great album. Each of the singles has at least 1 great remix as well. I would love to hear the tapes Steve, Gillian, and Peter worked on without Bernard to see if they are as good and different sounding as PH claims. You would imagine if PH had written a killer bassline, that Stephen Hague would have had the sense to use it.

t's a crisis I know
At the end of the show
People change but we don't falter
'Cause we know love is real
This is no place to shiver
So get up off the grass
You were once the main attraction
But all that's in the past

I went to the Peter Saville exhibition in 2002 in Manchester and they had a whiteboard from New Order’s studio with the titles, working titles, and rejected ideas for Republic scribbled on in red and blue marker. It’s one of the really cool bits of the show that stuck in my mind. I wish I’d taken a photo.

They've been performing "Times Change" lately.

I love "Regret" so much it's hard to get past it

I was a short fuse
Burning all the time
You were a complete stranger
Now you are mine

I would like a place I can call my own
Have a conversation on my telephone
Wake up everyday, that would be a start
I would not complain about my wounded heart

also it reminds me of the New Order guitar sound of Movement and 1981-1982 that I fell in love with

"Regret", "Ruined In A Day" and "Spooky" are the only songs off of this I ever listen to; I should change that

"Regret" is a perfect song, though

Everyone Everywhere, Times Change, and Avalanche are also great!

"Everyone Everywhere" is top ten NO for me.

Regret, Ruined in a Day, Spooky, Everyone Everywhere, Young Offender, Times Change, Special - apart from a couple of duds (Chemical, Liar), they're all classics.
It sure didn't feel like that when it came out, but it's one of my favorites NO albums these days.

"Regret" is a perfect song, though

Quite.

It sure didn't feel like that when it came out, but it's one of my favorites NO albums these days.

It doesn't/didn't fit the '90s' stereotypes in our heads even then. As a result, it's weirdly timeless.

I remember clearly that it got VERY lukewarm reviews from the NME and the Maker at the time (summer 1993). Regret and World are flawless tracks though.

It got better reviews stateside than in the UK, as if American critics finally got NO just, uh, before they fell apart.

The band's played "Times Change" and "World" in their last couple shows. I understand the veil of trauma through which they view the album, but it's a sturdy collection; they may have finally realized it too.

i've got nothing particularly rivetting to say about them but 'world' and 'spooky' are easily my favourite songs on this

My god I love this song and performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pc0PNdqElA

first time I was disappointed by New Order

You must have missed "Shellshock."

thank you thread, "Regret" is blazing chills thru my body now

"Shellshock" is masterful, fools!

I put the Pretty in Pink soundtrack on in the record store where I worked. When "Shellshock" came on, I was absolutely appalled. It's been more than 35 years, and I still remember thinking that it just didn't pay to have heroes.

Shellshock is a dazzlingly great blend of Robie and NO. If the band’s own interpersonal dynamics were better, one wonders if they would have more prolifically surrendered to collaboration, as with Baker.

idk I live in Miami, where "Shellshock" felt of its moment and thrilling -- and, respectfully, sic, they collaborated all the time.

I suppose it could be a function of the moment in which we found ourselves. I lived at the time in Colorado. I had seen them the year before on the Low-Life tour, and that remains a top three show for me. They seemed to fall off pretty dramatically after that. Brotherhood was a return to form, but that tour (at least when I saw it) was lackluster, and nothing they did afterward seemed to have, for me, the same magic.

That said, thanks to this thread I am listening to Republic for the first time in ages, and it sounds much better than I remember.

I'm a freestyle guy, so "Shellshock" was beautifully adjacent.

My closest friend at the time thought it was a joke. She called it their "we hate you Jellybean" moment.

They fruitfully collaborated with eg Hague on a sound for Republic, but the Robie and Baker singles sound more fully like a blending of both writing and production.

(The Hannett-era NO does sound like a different band to JD and later NO — but top of my head the other 1980s albums are self-produced; are there other collab singles I’m forgetting?)

I'd say "True Faith" represents an ideal collab b/w them and Stephen Hague.

Now that we've grown up together
They're all taking drugs with me

I think the consensus is that "Regret" is a cracking tune. Truly one of NO's transcendent moments.

i am pro shellshock

and while i have enjoyed certain tunes since, definitely think Regret is the last unfuckwithably transcendent moment from NO

generally feel that New Order and 90s “4 remixes on CD single 2 of 2” culture didn’t really get on that well, but was surprised to absolutely adore this Weatherall mix of Regret

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWyRPaJXuSQ

I'd say "True Faith" represents an ideal collab b/w them and Stephen Hague.

Ha yes, I was fumbling in the right direction!

(especially better to cite since by Republic the band weren’t collaborating with each other…)

Shellshock and State of the Nation are their nadir imo. Bounced back nicely after that, peaking with Technique and nicely plateauing ever since

And Republic is the album of theirs I pull out most often these days. Not their best but it really takes me (back) to a place and time.

That's Low-Life for me. I swear, I'm stuck in 1985.

I have tix to see them in October at the Hollywood Bowl, and to see Hooky next month. I'm trying to keep expectations as low as possible.

If I had to pick 'my' album it would be Technique though Brotherhood was the first album of theirs I got and almost wore into the ground. But Technique was the first one I heard as it was released and so it remains a portrait of a moment (followed relatively hot on its heels by the Cure's Disintegration and the self-titled Love and Rockets album a few months later).

love the idea that they peaked in 85, fell off, and returned to form in 86.

I dunno, Brotherhood was kind of the last gasp of their early years, when they were still living under the long shadow of Joy Division. While I like much of what came after, what made them most appealing to me--the tension between where they had come from and where they apparently wanted to go (or at least where Sumner wanted to go)--largely evaporated. Neither Technique nor Republic has much of the kind of gloomy mystique that defined them out the gate, and as someone else noted, not nearly enough Peter Hook. We will not speak of Get Ready.

Plus, as I said, the 86 tour, which tbf is the last time I saw them, just kind of sucked. I know they can be (or at least used to be) an uneven band live, but there was some serious disengagement in 86 that just wasn't there in 85.

Get Ready in the main is terrible but Crystal is one of the best songs they ever recorded (the long album version, not the single edit).

Like, I know how people who hate Republic but love Regret feel.

Technique preserves that gloomy mystique: it's not a cheerful album.

Yeah, "Crystal" rocks. The live version from the Finsbury Park DVD was especially good.

Technique preserves that gloomy mystique: it's not a cheerful album.

Maybe so, but it doesn't really sound much like their earlier stuff. It's a dance record.

In part. "All the Way, "Love Less," "Guilty Partner," "Run," "Dream Attack"?

I like Joy Division, but, really, NO was the realization of Joy Division, with all the inherent tensions assumed.

To a point, sure. And I will gladly admit that my own perceptions of the band were largely shaped by the tragedy of Ian's death, which certainly gave them some sort of halo that most bands didn't have, and which, like all things, faded over time.

Xxxxp it’s no secret why the video of their ‘86 tour is called “Pumped Full of Drugs”

Technique and Republic are just as downbeat as earlier stuff, but in a more sublimated way. In Technique it was sublimated in Ibiza hedonism. Republic I think is especially a downcast record, but has less obvious Angst than Joy Division and a more middle -age stiff upper lip reflectiveness.

Special is such a great song.

I think what I'm trying to get at in my own mind is that neither one of those albums sounds even a little bit like Joy Division. As I said earlier, I think this is largely a function of the submergence of Peter Hook (and, I suppose, the virtual disappearance of any sort of "organic" drum sound from Steve Morris).

I've been thinking about this album a lot in the last 3-4 days.

Because its the only album I can name where everyone can agree on the opening track - not just as a great track, but as the best - but then there is absolutely no consensus as to the ten that follow. Each one of them I've individually seen called a highlight and a dud.

Actually growing up in the 00s I was naively always under the impression this was a well-loved album because of three things
1. Regret, and there being three songs in total on the absurdly compiled (the best of) NewOrder, equal only to Republic in that regard
2. generally pretty good review scores - AllMusic have it at 4 etc
3. it's their biggest-selling studio album I believe

equal only to Technique, ahem

idk "Special" and especially "Everyone Everywhere" come up a lot as keepers

and "World" was a solid club jam in the early '90s, perhaps because it's practically an Electronic track.

Republic is a great album. The best album of lyrics Bernard Sumner has ever produced (tiny, extremely low bar there).

All three of those were ones I was thinking of as I wrote that. To name two fairly recent examples - Uncut's JD/NO album-by-album guide which I have somewhere has Everyone Everywhere and Special (and Times Change) at the bottom of the pile, and World towards the top. TPL's take on Republic is very nice on Everyone Everywhere but writes World off as bland.

I really enjoy all three - World is one of a few tracks (Spooky an obvious other) where, Hooky or no, the rubbery/sloping sequenced basslines really do it for me.

"Everyone Everywhere" is usually top ten New Order for me.

As far as contemporaneous reviews, I remember a sense of "Huh! We get them now!" on the American side (yes-that-Armond-White wrote a lovely appreciation for Rolling Stone) while a lot of "meh" across the pond.

I didn't realize til looking at the cover today that the bodies of the couple with the life preserver between them spell out SOS!

Has Saville (or others) ever explained why New Order are always Neworder or NewOrder from 1988-95? Duranduran did not get off so scot free

I assumed it was just a graphic design choice. Are you suggesting there's a legal reason? What happened to Duranduran? BTW, Do You Believe In Shame? is one of my fav "Duranduran" singles but I never thought their name was being run together for anything other than how it looks.

I remember spending an absolute age a while back trying to find a Google Street View location that would produce the cover image from one of the single releases of "Spooky" breathe in:
https://www.discogs.com/release/95201-NewOrder-Spooky

https://i.discogs.com/xfzwh-zFumPySYQ6jVKuNzr9TX2L47fTCmsNxGS3GGg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:441/w:504/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTk1MjAx/LTEyODQxOTg2NDUu/anBlZw.jpeg

It's Los Angeles, and by studying the buildings I worked out it was roughly this perspective:
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/JA0T1K/aerial-view-of-downtown-los-angeles-in-1984-southern-california-usa-JA0T1K.jpg

But after driving around in the Google Street View car I couldn't find an uninterrupted view. I did however get to see a bit of Los Angeles. It has hills. It looks weirdly flat and empty. Perhaps it has filled out since then. I remember hearing Republic just a couple of years after it was released, and even by 1995-1996 something about the production sounded old-fashioned. And yet I remember liking "Regret", "World", "Avalanche", and "Special". I always wondered if "Special" was aimed at Tony Wilson. And "Regret", particularly the bit about waiting for tomorrow. That song was an instant classic.

I also wondered if Peter Saville had just got a copy of Photoshop, because the montage in the CD booklet looked like the kind of thing people were doing with Photoshop in the "peak Protools" period when Photoshop existed but digital cameras were still obscure, so it was all about manipulating scanned slides and 100mb .TIFFs.

I can't remember a single thing about the other tracks on the album. I know that Technique gets all the respect, and I suppose it came first so Republic was a retread, and Republic doesn't have anything as brilliant as the beginning to "Fine Time", but I think they have a similar strike rate of good songs. I mean the tick-a-cha hi-hat, then the bass, then drrrrrrrr as the drums come in. It's like Star Wars, where we go from the droids to Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi to Han Solo to the Princess etc. "Fine Time" is genius in that respect. It's a little musical story with sheep noises.

I assumed it was just a graphic design choice. Are you suggesting there's a legal reason? What happened to Duranduran?

Nah I figured it was a graphic decision, but I'm baffled why they stuck with it for so long (7 years New Order, 7 years Neworder/NewOrder) without seemingly(?) ever commenting on it. Was Duranduran a legal thing? In the interviews I've read Simon Le Bon just says they went with it just for a while just because they liked the look of it on artwork (and, to quote him directly, because they were getting 'a little bit edgy').

LOL

Los Angeles is neither flat nor empty. However, there are vast swathes without much in the way of pedestrian traffic.

Liar was the song on Republic most directly about Tony Wilson, but I assume just about all of the songs addressing the collapse of Factory are about Tony in some way.

^^^Oh wait think I get what you mean. AFAIK Duranduran did not become Duran Duran again due to anything legal, just that the shorter name supposedly confused people.

It's a little musical story with sheep noises.

"Fine Time" is a masterclass in coming up with lots of melodic hooks - very great and memorable and gorgeous ones at that - and opting not to develop them into separate songs but have them all battle each other in one collage.

I've been listening to Technique all day.

This Fine Time talk reminded me of the Second-Hand Satellites record from (OMG 20 years ago) that samples Fine Time. Great song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPIoEr_ubEg

Top 5 on the album:
Regret, Special, Everyone Everywhere, Times Change, Young Offender.
Artwork is top 3
Like said above, it is not particularly cheerful album, reflecting the internal mood in the band at the time. And yet it’s such a summer album for me. Feeling maudlin at the beach. The cover precisely zooms in on that

Ashley, presumably an aerial shot of LA

Happy 30th anniversary.