early-90s alt-rock vs. late-90s alt rock

voted "late-90s alt rock (younger than 30)"

no doubt, this is due in no small part to "age bias" for me, but whatever

middle school was awesome (sometimes)

some of the music was, at least

can we see some kinda aggregate each of these mini-eras? (like early 90s = Nirvana/Smashing Pumpkins/Pavement, late 90s = uh I'm not sure exactly)
cuz like a bunch of early 90s alt rock bands were still making music into the late 90s

like where do Beck or Stereolab fit into this continuum

early

music made before 1995 vs. music made after 1995? I guess that makes odelay late-90s which doesn't seem to make much sense.

stereolab isn't alt-rock.

so we're taking into account when a band started, not necessarily when their best music was released? that seems weird

lol what would you call Stereolab

stereolab is stereolab

ok call them late then, what the fuck who cares

I mean these terms are all silly but 'alt-rock' to me sorta suggests mainstream/radio friendly

Stereolab was certainly radio friendly by 1997, when their music was being used in Volkswagen ads

not exactly sure what constitutes alt-rock (guessing we mean it was played on radio/mtv) here but still 99% sure i must vote early-90s alt rock (younger than 30)

xp

(at least when talking about 90s/00s music - think the 'alternative rock' section at borders or something) xp

ooh, just remembered a data point likely against early 90s alt-rock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcRtlj8KXT4

'alt-rock' to me sorta suggests mainstream

uh

honestly I kinda feel challopsy and wanna vote mid-90s cuz by then a lot of 80s-era dreck had been cleared away, embarassing rap-rock hybrid were losing their hip-ness quotient, most of the post-grunge wave of American and British indie were both coming into their own and still operating with fairly big budgets, etc. Most of my favorite stuff from that era of alt-rock (or whatever you wanna call it) came out around '94-'97 - Spiritualized, Pavement, Beck, Stereolab, JSBX, probably a bunch of others.

xp

(at least when talking about 90s/00s music - think the 'alternative rock' section at borders or something) xp

did you go to Borders and ask them where the Stereolab section was

"Radio-friendly" is a vague term. Just because "Parsec" appeared on TV commercials as a marker of stylishness doesn't mean commercial radio was going to touch a drum-n-bass song in 5/4 sung in French.

"Miss Modular" was played to death on Boston's 3 modern rock stations.

beck and jsbx was the beginning of the end

stereolab are basically alt-rock/indie

their best shit was 93-7 so idk where they fit rly

Played to death? Wow.

Also three modern rock stations?

yeah, WFNX, WBCN and WAAF (there were also selected shows on WZBC, WHRB and WERS)

of course now WFNX and WAAF are gone (RIP)

(WFNX also played tons and tons of Portishead and Spiritualized)

whoa @ Material Issue. I remember when all my older friends were getting their driver's licenses Intn'l Pop Overthrow was pretty much a cassette deck staple

I am under 30 and all music is garbage

I am trying to answer this but my answer keeps coming back to "mid 90s"

p much exactly on the age boundary too, so that is probably why ;_;

late-90s alt rock (younger than 30)

I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. Note that I am counting UK indie, if this was all about American alt.rock, the first half of the 90s would be better.

yeah, WFNX, WBCN and WAAF (there were also selected shows on WZBC, WHRB and WERS)

of course now WFNX and WAAF are gone (RIP)

― Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, May 17, 2010 4:15 PM

WAAF isn't gone?

honestly I kinda feel challopsy and wanna vote mid-90s cuz by then a lot of 80s-era dreck had been cleared away, embarassing rap-rock hybrid were losing their hip-ness quotient

http://everydaymusic.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/10-linkin-park-hybrid-theory.jpg

It isn't? I thought they radically changed their format?

WBCN is "gone" as a rock station, iirc, but not WFNX & WAAF, which I've been listening to off & on forever

right?

http://www.waaf.com/
http://wfnx.com/

Linkin Park never had any hipness quotient FYI

lol I guess they didn't

I guess when the dude I knew of via a friend of a friend said he got fired because their format changed, he was actually lying completely through his ass

early-90s alt rock (younger than 30)

although i like lots of stuff from both options and tbh the '97-'99 stuff I hate most is probably completely different from what a lot of people here hate on

also lol apparently I confused WBCN and WFNX

the moral of the story is that I never listen to anything besides 94.5 and KISS 108 these days

picked second half btw, under 30, loved Californication a lot

embarassing rap-rock hybrids are still with us TODAY (thx Weezy) - what's changed is that the blending of rap and rock in and of itself is no longer seen as a cutting edge or interesting thing. this was already becoming clear by the mid-90s, where rap-rock hybrids were at once all over the place and also totally boring.

xp

lol I guess they didn't

I guess when the dude I knew of via a friend of a friend said he got fired because their format changed, he was actually lying completely through his ass

― Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, May 17, 2010 4:30 PM (14 seconds ago)

pretty sure it was just WBCN that changed radically, b/c AAF has a bunch of the same ppl they've had since I was in 7th grade, and WFNX still plays alt rock

wanna reiterate:

the moral of the story is that I never listen to anything besides 94.5 and KISS 108 these days

"early-90s alt rock (and I am 30 years old+)," but pop and R&B were more interesting than either early or late nineties alt rock. Mid nineties R&B not so much.

I am going to go with early 90s here because I like early smashing pumpkins; other than that any music that was popularly referred to as "alternative rock" in the 90s is not rly my thing. but I did not really listen to rock radio at all during the 90s so I am probably an unusual case.

the moral of the story is that I never listen to anything besides 94.5 and KISS 108 these days

― Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE)

i still listen to WAAF sometimes, but the presets in my car are now set to 94.5, KISS 108, WBUR, and FNX. really, i try to listen to WAAF as little as possible. used to be my favorite station back from, like, 1999-2003/4

embarassing rap-rock hybrids are still with us TODAY (thx Weezy) - what's changed is that the blending of rap and rock in and of itself is no longer seen as a cutting edge or interesting thing. this was already becoming clear by the mid-90s, where rap-rock hybrids were at once all over the place and also totally boring.

oops sorry

I'm not even sure what contemporary bands are considered alt rock atm. I guess whenever U2, Pearl Jam or Red Hot Chili Peppers come out with a new album. Are there any big bands right now that became successful through the alt rock format?

there are no big bands anymore

I'm not even sure what contemporary bands are considered alt rock atm.

Go here.

Joanna Newsom, alt-rock auteur

I was thinking less indie bands (tho clearly those bands break through) and more like AltPress/Hot Topic style bands? Gaslight Anthem, Against Me! etc sound like they'd be at home on an alt rock format. And of course newish Green Day (MCR, Fallout Boy, Paramore) have had tremendous success there.

lol there's nowhere to break through to anymore. I doubt the guys in the National are millionaires, knowhutimean

I'm pretty sure Radiohead have done well for themselves, and Vampire Weekend will turn in a tidy profit.

I was thinking more like Modest Mouse, I guess. The National, or even LCD Soundsystem or whoever aren't even having big radio success even compared to the current musical climate -- let alone historical success.

I'm not even sure what contemporary bands are considered alt rock atm.

IMO think GAPDYX + Vampire Weekend, Death Cab For Cutie and LCD Soundsystem

like, the whole concept of alt-rock requires a thriving, well-funded "mainstream". which is gone.

Radiohead's been around since the early 90s tho. Be curious to see what Vampire Weekend's income is like, or how their album sales stack up to previous decades' indie darlings. Like, how many albums have they sold compared to a similarly charting band from 1996? A lot less, I'd bet.

(x-posts)

Early 90s 30+. Soundgarden rule.

some big modern rock radio bands right now that weren't already huge in the '90s: Muse, 30 Seconds To Mars, The Killers, Kings Of Leon

how the hell is U2 alt rock?!

black hole sun
won't you come
and wash away the horchata

Pretty sure Grizzly Bear + Animal Collective aren't getting a ton of radio play. Phoenix + Yeah Yeah Yeahs probably getting some, Death Cab (do they have new music?), Vampire Weekend for sure. Dirty Projectors not sure. How has LCD Soundsystem charted in the US? (Can only find UK chart info -- could mean US chart info is non-existent.)

fwiw, i can recall hearing Pheonix, YYYs, Death Cab, and VW on the fairly big alt station here

U2 are alt rock in the sense that the Cure are alt rock

only they have the added stadium rock/AOR-approved factor

Yeah, doesn't look like an LCD Soundsystem single has ever charted in the US.

it's kind of a different metric now; I don't think you can use radio play as the one true indicator, you kind of have to merge it with filtered-by-some-undetermined-algorithm data from internet sources

like my personal metric is "appears in my music video on-demand menu"

i think the joke on 'n american scum' is that they were 'big in the uk'

selling your music to commercials is a far more common option these days.

black hole sun
won't you come
and wash away the horchata

LOL IRL!!

Yeah, doesn't look like an LCD Soundsystem single has ever charted in the US.

― Mordy, Monday, May 17, 2010 10:45 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

genuine q: did pixies or husker du or sonic youth ever chart in the u.s.?

yeah these Pitchfork bands you guys are mentioning definitely are popular in many senses -- but again there are (less cool) youngish alt-rock bands that have ten times their sales and ten times their radio spins, if we're really talking about actual mainstream success stories.

I remember arguing on ILX when Strawberry Jam came out (or possible Person Pitch) about what the reach of that music was. At the time, no one I knew IRL had heard of AC or Panda Bear, despite the massive amount of hype they were getting in places like ILX, Stereogum, P4k, etc. I'm sure that's gotten better for AC since Merriweather, but I think for a lot of P4k hyped bands the popularity is still pretty localized and statistically insignificant.

I'd have to look them up, hm, but Sonic Youth 100% charted in the US.

yeah they had 5 minor modern rock hits from '88 to '94

Sonic Youth charted a bunch on Modern Rock format, as did the Pixies -- not sure about Husker Du.

The Pixies only charted on the modern rock chart, as far as I can tell.

Husker Du charted nowhere.

Sonic Youth had a bunch of albums in the Hot 100 and several modern rock chart singles.

AC hasn't charted at all afaik.

Pixies charted on the album chart. Doolittle is certified gold.

Sugar far outsold Husker Du.

genuine q: did pixies or husker du or sonic youth ever chart in the u.s.?

― all i wanna do is poll poll poll poll and zing and discuss mia (history mayne), Monday, May 17, 2010 5:48 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah they had 5 minor modern rock hits from '88 to '94

― couldn't think of anything to write instead of 'steendriver' (some dude), Monday, May 17, 2010 5:50 PM

VERY minor...in the Midwest about 1 in 75 people that you will run into randomly will have knowingly heard a song by any of the aforementioned bands.

lol I'd forgotten that "Brothersport" was so annoying, that may play into why AC hasn't charted

sonic youth is a vaguely familiar name...and they play here comes your man at baseball games & on mall P.A.s now, but i don't think anybody really recognizes it beyond the guitar riff...husker du, i don't even know....

xxxp MPP made it pretty onto the Billboard 100 didn't it?

pretty HIGH onto

oh yeah, 13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_one_modern_rock_hits_of_2010

fwiw, the wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_alternative_rock include MPP in its list of 2009 Alternative Rock CDs (along with Green Day, the Dead Weather, Paramore, Pearl Jam, U2, Weezer, Wilco, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, other stuff).

Within the context of the modern rock charts, "100%" and "Kool Thing" were top 10 and therefore not minor. I still think those charts were just made up by some random dork though.

kool thing might not have been minor...but modern rock charts seemed kind of dodgy...i remember in '93 when i started to get into music, there was a two-hour block on the local top 40 station that was all modern rock, and that was all there was as far as modern rock goes...in 95 there was an actual local alt-rock station for about six months before it turned classic rock...they played stuff like the Deadlights, and the Nixons, and Loud Lucy, and Silverchair...by that time, Sonic Youth was already off the radar...

i think of "alternative" in the 90s as a marketing term, a brand of mainstream, rock-oriented pop offered to MTV-educated consumers who didn't want to think of themselves as unhip. though it carried a great deal of alt-cultural cache, "indie" (at the time) referred simply to label affiliation. since independent labels didn't then have much direct access to the radio listeners at whom alternative music was marketed, indie and alt were vastly different ballparks. alt was what commercially ambitious indie aspired to, and indie culture provided much of the cred that alt used to justify its distance from some other, ostensibly more mainstream-y mainstream. stereolab started the decade as an indie band, and like many others, ended it modestly successful alt rockers.

something like the alternative format still exists, though it seems to be playing for a much smaller slice of the pie these days. happy upside is that smaller labels and even label-less artists can compete with the majors - well, can at least get noticed and heard.

occasionally

In high school in the early nineties, I heard "progressive" and "post-modern" a lot.

postmodernism is characterized by an incredulity towards Animal Collective

Yeah, the thing is that until 1992 or so, there were only a handful of stations in the U.S. that called themselves "modern rock"/"alternative rock." It was a niche format and driven pretty much by whatever those stations, like KROQ, decided to play. So some of those early Modern Rock charts (beginning in 1988) look kind of weird and eclectic and British.

alt-rock absolutely was a marketing term, though any legitimate claim it had to making one seem not "unhip" was drastically reduced as the decade wore on...

early 90s alt-rock was basically mainstream radio-rock that fed the huge demand for 80s underground rock that had gone unnoticed by corporations and audiences alike until Smells Like Teen Spirit.

late 90s alt-rock was basically mainstream radio-rock with even more rough edges worn away in order to appeal to even more common denominators......I tend to think of tyhe late 90s stuff as crass and watered-down, but can see how the early-90s stuff can really grate...

actually irt postmodernism...the two hour modern rock radio bloc wz actually called Postmodern KFR

voted early '90s, 30+.

oh yeah, 13

― Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, May 17, 2010 4:57 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

#13 on the strength of 25,000 copies. In 1998 a Jerry Seinfeld comedy album debuted at #59 with the same numbers.

postmodernism is characterized by an incredulity towards Animal Collective

― ksh, Monday, May 17, 2010 10:17 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^ this is the sort of postmodernism I can get behind

me too, tbh

will stan for Feels & Strawberry Jam. that's about it

and some other tracks here and there

we call that "modernism"

postmodernism is characterized by an incredulity towards Animal Collective

― ksh, Monday, May 17, 2010 10:17 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^ this is the sort of postmodernism I can get behind

― Police Cool. (crüt), Monday, May 17, 2010 6:23 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

me too, tbh

Thirded. Now we have a majority. So moved.

I'm going by the kind of stuff they played on 120 Minutes:

1990

Cocteau Twins- Heaven or Las Vegas
Sonic Youth- Goo
Ride- Nowhere
Pixies- Bossanova
Jane's Addiction- Ritual De Lo Habitual
Robyn Hitchcock- Eye
House of Love
The Las
TMBG- Flood
Happy Mondays- Pills, Thrills & Bellyaches
Sinead O'Connor- I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got
The Breeders- Pod
Peter Murphy- Deep
Social Distortion- S/T
Alice in Chains- Facelift
.....

My favorite stuff is generally between 1993 and 1996. Earlier than that most of the stuff sounds pretty dated now. Post OK Computer era stuff just doesn't have quite as many of my favorites.

As of right now.

Over 30, voted late 90s.

The first half of the decade had all the big ones, Slanted and Enchanted, Nevermind, Automatic For The People, Rid Of Me, Exile In Guyville, etc. But the 2nd half of the decade had a lot more great records. Just the year 1997 alone had a ridiculous amount of great music.

early 90s, 30+.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

early 90s, 30+. Late 90s was weak sauce. Ugh.

I do like this handful of late '90s radio alts:

(1996) Smashing Pumpkins - 1979
(1997) Foo Fighters - Everlong
(1998) Harvey Danger - Flagpole Sitta
(1999) New Radicals - You Get What You Give

But, c'mon:

(1990) Faith No More - Epic
(1990) Jane's Addiction - Been Caught Stealing
(1991) Big Audio Dynamite II - Rush
(1991) Jesus Jones - Right Here, Right Now
(1991) R.E.M. - Losing My Religion
(1991) Siouxsie & The Banshees - Kiss Them For Me
(1991) Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit
(1992) Blind Melon - No Rain
(1992) Pearl Jam - Even Flow
(1992) Spin Doctors - Two Princes
(1993) Radiohead - Creep
(1993) The Breeders - Cannonball
(1994) Counting Crows - Mr. Jones
(1994) Green Day - Longview
(1994) Weezer - Undone-The Sweater Song
etc.

I like about as many of those songs from each list

Neither. 1994-1996. The MID-90s!

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

boo yah

The old fart brigade stumbles onward.

Late 90's had that huge influx of rap-metal. holy god that was an embarrasment

the first nu-metal album was 1994 (Korn), Kerrang was going on about Nu-Metal when that came out, though I think it took a while for it to catch on in the US.

lol exactly 100 votes! someone make a pie chart

the first nu-metal album was 1994 (Korn), Kerrang was going on about Nu-Metal when that came out, though I think it took a while for it to catch on in the US.

well, wouldn't rage against the machine kind of count as the "first nu-metal album"? or is that too pedantic/too much about defining "nu-metal"?!?

RATM got the 'funk metal' and 'rap metal' tags a lot but i don't know if they were actually metal enough (or at all really) to get the 'nu-metal' label, they were just a harder alt-rock band

nah, Korn were the first band to be called it. I probably still have that issue of Kerrang up the loft. RATM never got called nu-metal, not even now.

not here anyway

Korn WERE pretty unique when they first came out, that much i will concede as true. though AFAIC it was because of Jon Davis's love for bagpipes (which made him kinda Bon Scott-ish).

the whole nu-metal thing wasnt just rap + metal, it had something to do with specific tunings didnt it? (at least at first) most of the early ones were Korn clones (remember that bunch of chancers Coal Chamber?) Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, Slipknot were second wave nu-metal i guess?

oh god one of my mates loved Stuck Mojo.

and anyway, though i didn't vote i would've voted early 90s (30+ y/o) -- a lot out of (continuing) ignorance of what was going on in the alt-rock world (other than the stuff on mainstream radio) more than anything else (graduated college, looked for and got my first post-college graduation job and was super busy, went back to law school ... and was therefore too busy/preoccupied to listen obsessively to college/left-of-the-dial stations any more or go to concerts).

xxpost I wouldn't say it had to do with specific tunings. A lot of nu-metal bands use(d) drop D tuning, but that predates nu-metal, and downtuned guitars are a heavy metal standby since the days of Sabbath. To me nu-metal is usually identifiable by the rhythm and the vocals.

the whole nu-metal thing wasnt just rap + metal, it had something to do with specific tunings didnt it?

yeah, i think that's about right (plus the rhythms and distinctive nu-metal vocals) -- otherwise, you could back even further than Korn (or RATM) and say that either Faith No More or (God help us all) the Red Hot Chili Peppers were the first nu-metal bands.

yeah i wasn't conflating rap metal and nu-metal, just saying that RATM only ever got described as anything + metal when being lumped in with the biggest existing rap/rock trend.

I know FNM & Helmet kinda got blamed (unfairly) for nu-metal, but they definitely were not nu-metal.

a lot of the beefs against nu-metal, if i remember correctly, centered on (a) the whiny/juvenile/dumb lyrics (see especially Fred Durst) -- though emo/crabcore has taken over as the whipping boy in that regard nowadays; (b) the hip-hop influences were really badly executed (lyricists who couldn't rap to save their lives, shitty beats, etc.); and (c) the simple fact that this shit was inescapable.

D) and was shit

music aside, the early 90s (by which i mean 1990-1995) was more classic/exciting not just because i liked the alt-rock music better than the stuff that came out from 1996-1999. there was also the excitement of hearing stuff that my friends and i NEVER would've thought would make it onto mainstream radio end up precisely there -- and not just Nirvana. i was thrilled as a teen when stuff like the Cure and Depeche Mode finally got through to the mainstream in 1989-1990 (and wished that other favorites of that time like the Smiths or Echo and the Bunnymen would've stuck it out just a bit longer to enjoy the same kind of success) and they (along with Faith No More) kind of paved the way. i still remember the time when my friends and i were walking near Frat Row on our college campus circa 1992 and hearing Nirvana, the Pixies and Nine Inch Nails blasting therefrom. it seemed like it meant SOMETHING to us (esp. since in the not-too-distant-past all you'd hear from such quarters was either buttrock or dance-pop).

obviously, the thrill wore off when alt-rock became the NEW mainstream and you'd have to wade through the Stabbing Westwards, the Candleboxes, the Collective Souls etc. to get to the good stuff.

It's also no coincidence that the rise of the Internet happened at the same time as major labels lost interest in "alternative" (nicely chronicled in Dean Wareham's memoir) and returned to boy bands and hip-hop. In 1992 I would've heard The Raincoats on my local college station; in 2000 I had to download them through Napster.

can you explain the connection there?

i think he means that from Napster onwards you didn't have to rely on college/weirdo-commercial radio stations anymore to hear stuff like the Raincoats. i also imagine that there wasn't much (if any) profit to the record companies from stocking up on stuff like the Raincoats anyway (lol remember all of those cut-out bins full of the breeder's last splash?).

it's certainly no accident that it took a band like Metallica to take on Napster. who the hell would've bankrolled a legal challenge to Napster lead by the Raincoats or the Breeders (assuming that either band would've even wanted to sue in the first place)?!?

Eisbaer otm -- I was finishing my reply before you posted.

the real surprise is the age breakdown?

not w/r/t what they voted for, but that ilm is now majority 30+

I still feel like The Youngest ILXor sometimes and I'm almost 27 now.

ilm is ilxors who care enough about 90s alt-rock to click on a thread entitled "early-90s alt-rock vs. late-90s alt rock" are now majority 30+

(though I was surprised too)

i'm not surprised -- really, i've always kind of taken it as an article of faith that the first half of the 90s was the better one wr2 music than the second and not surprised about the age either. it is kind of interesting and shocking to be reminded that lots of us are now old folk, though.

you guys seem to be overlooking
early-90s alt rock (younger than 30) 35

So it's clearly not just 30+ ilxors who think it was better

Of course, an 80s alt-rock vs 90s alt-rock would almost definitely be a win for the 80s, since the 80s is ILM's canonic decade.

pfunk, was mostly talking about the #s of over 30s vs. under 30s, not their choices

it will be interesting to watch the 90s become more lionized over the course of the next decade or so. assuming that the 20-year lag still applies.

we already have a (rather great) ace of base sounding-ass song in the billboard top ten so

i wonder what would win early vs late 90s polls for pop, rnb, hip hop,metal etc

I'll do the metal one
Early 90s Metal Vs Mid 90s Metal Vs Late 90s Metal