Loaded vs. American Beauty

What in the world ever happened to sweet Jane

both released late 1970

American Beauty is a much better album than Loaded imo, but then again, I was really surprised to see the outpouring of love for Loaded on its thread; the performances on Loaded are to me the worst realizations of those songs, most of the stuff I like about the Velvets is missing from that record. (Lou Reed's self-titled solo album >>> Loaded, for me.) I wouldn't agree that American Beauty doesn't sound like much else the Dead did; it's in the vein of Workingman's Dead, I think, just more electrified.

^co-sign, all of it.

Lou Reed's self-titled solo album >>> Loaded, for me
dang that's some serious challops!
imo both of these are great, but i'd have to go w/ Loaded.

I just can not get into Loaded at all.

xxpost
yeah - i was just thinking that too about Workingman's Dead. Anyway - both albums are freak-out/epic-free records from epic freakout bands.

Both were once called The Warlocks.
I like all the little parallels between the Velvets and the Dead.

they played together a coupla times in 1969. one show was a triple bill with the fugs!

wish i could vote for American Beauty a hundred times in this poll.

Loaded easy, even though it's only either my 3rd (maybe 4th) favorite VU album; up against Workingman's Dead (the only album by the Dead I've ever come close to loving) would be a lot harder.

I guess I've never heard Lou's debut, so I can't co-sign on that opinion. Everything else he said, though, I agree.

totally thought this was about the movie american beauty at first

IMO it's the worst VU album vs. the best Dead album.

if anything, lou's first solo record is drifting even further away from the VU sound (even though a lot of the songs originated with the band). it's closer to elton john than the velvet underground. it's ok, but better than Loaded? Nah.

by that logic, the VU xp

Dead STUDIO album, anyway.

Lou Reed's self-titled solo album >>> Loaded, for me.

man you are bonkers today. big fan of those Rick Wakeman solos eh

let's just note for the record here that J0hn is advancing the argument that STEVE HOWE was a better sideman for Lou than Doug Yule

I mean okay, Wild Child is great, but those versions of I Can't Stand It, Lisa Says, and Ocean are total crap. Ride Into the Sun doesn't fare quite as badly but still...

it's worse, he's saying STEVE HOWE was a better sideman than Sterling Morrison

xps eh it's possible! (never heard the lou reed solo album in question)

i just learned that all the piano work on the ziggy stardust era bowie tracks (incl "changes" etc) is... rick wakeman

let's just note for the record here that J0hn is advancing the argument that STEVE HOWE was a better sideman for Lou than Doug Yule

Conan O'Brian's masturbating bear would be a better sideman for Lou Reed than Doug Yule

what can I say besides "I hate me some Doug Yule"

Wakeman much better suited to Bowie than Lou imho

xp

http://www.loureed.com/new/news/loupicts/misc/lou_doug_moe.jpg

Bowie is all about the technique and the frills n trills. Lou is more about simplicity and narrative.

I dunno what the Dead are about, being fat and lazy probably

xp

let's be honest with ourselves, however much we prefer the Velvets there's not a single member of Yes who isn't a better musician than Yule, Morrison & Tucker all rolled into one

Conan O'Brian's masturbating bear would be a better sideman for Lou Reed than Doug Yule

I just can't abide the implication that the Velvets' third album (to say nothing of Loaded) is crap. really. you have no time for Candy Says. Or Beginning to See the Light. or What Goes On. what is wrong with you man.

"American Beauty" but daaaaam, Yule's playing on "Ocean" on Live 1969 is faaaar out, man.

let's be honest with ourselves, however much we prefer the Velvets there's not a single member of Yes who isn't a better musician than Yule, Morrison & Tucker all rolled into one

okay sure, but you say that Loaded is everything you DIDN'T want the Velvets to be and then turn around and praise an album that contains EVEN EXPONENTIALLY LESS of what made the Velvets' great! Like if you hate the session-man-classic-rock vibe of Loaded, what the hell is there on Lou Reed's s/t that isn't that very same vibex1000000??

shakey otm

^^^^^

its funny that loaded used to be one of my big dropping acid in the summertime albums when i was a kid. it still sounds summery to me when i hear it now!

i have mix tapes from back then that go something like: sweet jane/ripple/husker du/more vu/more dead/more husker du/etc.

Loaded. I'm not much of a Deadhead. I would probably go with the worst VU over the best Dead LP as a matter of fact, unless you include Squeeze. The only Dead joints I've ever been able to really warm up to were Anthem of the Sun, Live Dead, and the 1st one. They really sound as though they were "searching for the sound" [to use Phil Lesh's phrase] on those, as opposed to just being sorta noodly.

I'd also like to say I prefer Loaded to Lou's 1st solo effort because everything on there is so watered-down sounding. THis may be due to the use of session musicians instead of an actual band like VU was [whether Lou wanted to admit it circa Loaded or not]. I wonder if Lou wrote charts for Howe and co. ;-)

let's be honest with ourselves, however much we prefer the Velvets there's not a single member of Yes who isn't a better musician than Yule, Morrison & Tucker all rolled into one

o no u dint

i think he's just trolling at this point

eh it's pretty obvious where that's coming from and I wouldn't really argue it - Yes are all incredibly versatile and precise in a way none of the Velvets' are. those dudes could pretty much play anything. they just had shittier ideas than the Velvets.

let's just note for the record here that J0hn is advancing the argument that STEVE HOWE was a better sideman for Lou than Doug Yule

That's not what he said (at least initially), although why couldn't you argue that Howe was a better match? I've no problem writing that Fernando Saunders was a better sideman for Lou than John Cale if by "better" I mean "has made significantly more music -- sometimes music as good as -- with Saunders."

As the guy frequently cited as the standard bearer for studio pop, I've no problem admitting I like Loaded least of the four Velvet studio records and Lou (and Cale, and Moe) has recorded better solo albums.

although why couldn't you argue that Howe was a better match

oh you could argue it, I just think you would be wrong

"The only Dead joints I've ever been able to really warm up to were Anthem of the Sun, Live Dead, and the 1st one. They really sound as though they were "searching for the sound" [to use Phil Lesh's phrase] on those, as opposed to just being sorta noodly."

you should try more albums. they really achieved something wonderful on american beauty and workingman's dead. none of their later studio albums are really "noodly". they are all about songs. good songs!

(and by later, i mean later than the ones you mentioned. i would throw europe 72 in there too, just cuz the songs are so great.)

'Wake of The Flood' might even be their best batch of songs!

I just can't abide the implication that the Velvets' third album (to say nothing of Loaded) is crap. really. you have no time for Candy Says. Or Beginning to See the Light. or What Goes On. what is wrong with you man.

naw I can get with the 3rd one OK although it kind of puts me to sleep. The songs are good (a lot of songs on Loaded are good too). But the sensibility that comes into the band with Yule, that warm-milk evenhanded stuff - it kinda puts me to sleep on the 3rd one to be honest, and by the time of Loaded it's like "hey, how can we make these songs as uninteresting as possible?" the solo album on the other hand - Howe plays great on it, Wakeman too, if I'm going to listen to laid-back versions of those songs then the guys playing 'em on the self-titled are the people I'd rather hear playing it

basically for me my Loaded animosity boils down to "I love the shit outta 'Sweet Jane' and think the version on Loaded is an insult to one of my favorite songs of all time"- even if it didn't, though, if I were just voting for the sheet music, I think the songs on American Beauty are probably better candidate-for-candidate than Loaded. American Beauty is just unbelievably strong.

Here we part company. I wasn't around in '68 or '69, but playing the eponymous album after absorbing its predecessors' impact must have been just as harrowing. I can't think of a single track from this time with "What Goes On"'s hard, endless rhythmic strum or the use of space in "Some Kinda Love" and "Candy Says." Maybe The Band came closest to integrating gospel and folk like the Velvets did in "I'm Set Free," but I haven't heard it. The album's only dud is the one track in which they try to repeat the hijinks of the Cale albums ("Murder Mystery").

^^^what he said

What Goes On is proto-krautrock, it doesn't quite have the motorik beat but the rhythm has that sense of constant forward motion

Is the Lou Reed s/t worth checking out? I actually wouldn't mind hearing Howe and Wakeman on VU-style songs.

(Hm, I never thought of the s/t VU album as being as innovative as you're claiming but counter-examples don't spring to mind TBH. Interesting. Will think about this.)

it's pretty shitty imho, barring a couple tracks (I mentioned upthread that Wild Child is the standout)

I agree that it's proto-Krautrock, the thing is I'm kinda not Mr. Krautrock (though I gotta admit there was one winter/spring when the 3rd album version What Goes On was completely blowing my mind at least once a week). And I love the rhythms in "Some Kinda Love" for sure. But I'm a White Light/White Heat dude. I like my Velvets harsh. Lou solo I think just does the laid-back stuff better, and to much greater effect - I would rather hear his gentle songs played by, yeah, dudes like Steve Howe & Rick Wakeman. I prefer Lou Reed & A Cast of Musos to most Velvets, to be honest - like, the Saunders/Quine band, that right there is some of the most enjoyable stuff he ever made - even when the tunes aren't there (as imo they often aren't), those guys keep me listening. Whereas, like, you know how everybody loves "Pale Blue Eyes"? I have always kinda hated "Pale Blue Eyes." I could dig it if there were something going on besides Lou getting to fabbo punchlines like "down for you is up," but there isn't.

Sundar I'd guess you'd enjoy the self-titled like I do; I was unaware that there was any animosity toward it.

(also, I'm not trolling, really - it's just that for about three years in high school, Lou Reed was pretty much God for me, and my opinions about my Lou Reed collection [something like 40 LPs counting bootlegs iirc] were kind of What I Did. It came as something of a surprise to me to learn years later that what most people liked about Lou was his wimped-out side instead of, y'know, Steve Hunter. That's right Steve Hunter. The intro to the Rock n Roll Animal "Sweet Jane" you guys probably all hate? I love it to pieces.)

I'm not really an either/or guy when it comes to Lou - gentle Lou is great/touching/funny, angry confrontational Lou is great/scary/funny

I love Rock n Roll Animal! Still the best official live version "Heroin" preserved.

prefer Lou Reed & A Cast of Musos to most Velvets, to be honest - like, the Saunders/Quine band, that right there is some of the most enjoyable stuff he ever made - even when the tunes aren't there (as imo they often aren't), those guys keep me listening.

Haven't we fought about this for years? I thought the Quine-Saunders stuff made you ill or something.

I mean, I'm the kind of guy who likes to drive around blasting Take No Prisoners in the middle of the night

xp

you think i hate it?

x-post

if dick wagner and steve hunter had been on every lou reed album i would own every lou reed album.

Haven't we fought about this for years? I thought the Quine-Saunders stuff made you ill or something.

I think the songs really get pretty weak after The Blue Mask - especially on Legendary Hearts, which I know you rep for. (I love "Bottoming Out" a lot but I just can't get down with the writer who had once meant a great deal to me leading off with "Legendary hearts/tearing us apart.") But I could listen to that band play all day - I saw that lineup on the New Sensations tour. It was so goddamn awesome. He opened with "Sweet Jane." I thought I was going to die.

I got a soft spot for that intro too. A used copy of Rock N Roll Animal was my intro to anything Lou. Weird place to start, but made everything else seem pretty stripped down.

basically tho really I mean given how extremely passionate I was about Lou being The Greatest Ever when I was a sprout, it's unsurprising that even the stuff I praise now I couch in damning terms - my love of his stuff at the peak of my fandom was like total hero worship

whereas I didn't give American Beauty a chance until like 2005 I think, maybe 2006, and what did I find, when I finally stopped being "eww ick Deadheads"?

1. "Box of Rain" (Robert Hunter, Phil Lesh) – 5:18
2. "Friend of the Devil" (Jerry Garcia, John Dawson, Hunter) – 3:24
3. "Sugar Magnolia" (Bob Weir, Hunter) – 3:19
4. "Operator" (Ron McKernan) – 2:25
5. "Candyman" (Garcia, Hunter) – 6:14
6. "Ripple" (Garcia, Hunter) – 4:09
7. "Brokedown Palace" (Garcia, Hunter) – 4:09
8. "Till the Morning Comes" (Garcia, Hunter) – 3:08
9. "Attics of My Life" (Garcia, Hunter) – 5:12
10. "Truckin'" (Garcia, Lesh, Weir, Hunter) – 5:03

Just unbelievable. Loaded can't even suit up for this match.

here we go. loving this but more Dead vs Velvets talk pls

Legendary Hearts is the weakest of the trio, no question. My favorite of that era is New Sensations, which gets my vote for worst production of a great album.

stacking up the 10 songs on each, track by track in the order they appeared...

"Who Loves the Sun" vs "Box of Rain"
"Sweet Jane" vs. "Friend of the Devil"
"Rock & Roll" vs. "Sugar Magnolia"
"Cool It Down" vs. "Operator"
"New Age" vs. "Candyman"
"Head Held High" vs. "Ripple"
"Lonesome Cowboy Bill" vs. "Brokedown Palace"
"I Found a Reason" vs. "Till the Morning Comes"
"Train Round the Bend" vs. "Attics of My Life"
"Oh! Sweet Nuthin'" vs. "Truckin'"

round one: who loves the sun vs. box of rain -

sun song vs. rain song. hippies and their weather. both kind of annoying. draw?

the only lou albums i feel like i ALWAYS have to have on the shelf at this late date: berlin, the bells, sally can't dance, blue mask, rock & roll animal, and lou reed live. i need a copy of the first album though. i like those songs and i like the album. had one at some point. (i mean, i do like lots of other stuff too. was just listening to coney island baby a couple weeks ago. but if i really had to pick essentials, those would be mine. today, anyway.)

big xpost:

1. "Box of Rain" (Robert Hunter, Phil Lesh) – 5:18
2. "Friend of the Devil" (Jerry Garcia, John Dawson, Hunter) – 3:24
3. "Sugar Magnolia" (Bob Weir, Hunter) – 3:19

^^^ I mean as an opening salvo that is pretty unfuckwithable - "Box of Rain" is like all the Dead's best qualities of the era in one song, the navel-gazing of the lyric really gets at a pained sort of longing that's really effective; "Friend of the Devil," shit, the sheer number of bluegrass pickers who can do that one on call oughta tell you something, i.e., that it's a solid jam; and "Sugar Magnolia" is just fantastic, really the best studio realization of the Europe '72 vibe imo. "Operator" gives me the fucking creeps, the vocal just bugs me, but this is a personal reaction - the band's still playing is crackling & solid, a real joy. "Candyman" is also creepy as fuck, frankly it'd sound in place on a Velvets album only as a character study of a sleazebag. But then "Ripple"? Man, even the most ardent Dead-hater has to rep for "Ripple," that's all-time American songbook right there - just gorgeous, perfect tune. I'm not a huge fan of "Brokedown Palace," feel like it's trying too hard, but it's decent. "Attics of My Life" you can keep. "Til the Morning Comes" is a decent jam though it's a harbinger of bad stuff to come circa Shakedown Street. And "Truckin'," again, all-time classic tune.

Whereas the Velvets third has by my reckoning 3 all-time classics and a bunch of other stuff that's pleasant enough, and Lou really starting to feel like A Poet.

berlin, the bells, sally can't dance, blue mask, rock & roll animal, and lou reed live

haha wow apart from Berlin these are all the ones I DON'T want to own

Ha, as I feared, I kind of think Lou Reed is the worst thing about most of this stuff. "Berlin" and "I Love You" are really nice despite him.

(I'm not even a Dead fan, and I at least was a big VU fan, but I'd probably take "Ripple" over all of Loaded.)

xposts Ha!

if we're going track vs. track, box of rain smokes who loves the sun imo but as a Loaded hater I'm not really qualified to be a ref with Loaded vs. An Album I Consider Awesome

my favorite Lou solos are Coney Island Baby, the first album, Rock and Roll Animal, and yeah Sally Can't Dance (so marvelously weird & fucked-up)

I kind of can't believe that the Dead never covered Sweet Jane. I can totally hear Bob singing the verses and Jerry singing the chorus. I'm not saying that this would necessarily be good.

I thought it would be hard to picture the reverse but a lot of these would sound good done by the VU.

i like the ragged quality of box of rain more than the cutesiness of who loves the sun but the vocal on box bugs me

Except for "The Kids" (which in the right mood will make me cry), I can't stand Berlin, which for all its polish and expense is more cynical and "decadent" than SCD.

Coney Island Baby is the one imho

agree ripple smokes everything on loaded though

xpost to Shakey: we agree on the supremacy of Coney Island Baby!

if loaded were some unknown band's debut and nobody bought it and the band died a week after it was released then i think it would still be a big deal with nerds and people would create a church for it. it's that kind of album. i just look at it as a rilly rilly good rock record! i love the sounds and the production and the songs are way cool. its playful. god knows i listen to enough bands from the 70's that kinda sorta remind me of loaded.

but how does it stack up to American Beauty in yr books, Scott?

xpost to Shakey: we agree on the supremacy of Coney Island Baby!

lol peace bruv

I could rhapsodize endlessly about that record

for me it is the only Lou record I would call perfect. I think it was the third or fourth one I heard and it completely changed my life. I would vote for it over American Beauty & over probably most other albums - I don't keep an all-time top ten list, but it'd be on there for sure - always sounds fresh & great to me. Definitive "She's My Best Friend," I'm extremely glad that that was the first place I heard it since the VU treatment of it, to me, doesn't do it justice.

Loaded on the other hand...not even close.

"but how does it stack up to American Beauty in yr books, Scott?"

oh jeez i dunno i like them both a ton. but american beauty is kinda like the great american novel and loaded is more like a cool grove press book that you steal from your parent's shelf. they are both very american though. and cool it down fills me with joy. pure joy. as much as i love lou and vu though, man, hunter/garcia is seriously the second coming of george and ira as far as i'm concerned. their contribution to the american songbook is pretty friggin' huge for a couple of drug-addled hippies.

even the most ardent Dead-hater has to rep for "Ripple,"

Ah fuck you got me.

Really!

surprised no one's brought up workingman's dead, which came out in '70 (june i think?) before either of these other two, and is way mellower

I have no idea but you'd have to head all the way down to Shakedown Street to find a Dead album that's not as good as Loaded

@ Scott: I hear what yr saying. I will revisit the Dead LPs you mention. I'm always open to having my head turned around.

I always thought "Lonesome Cowboy Bill" always kind of sounded a bit like the Dead. I could definitely hear the Dead playing it and Garcia singing it in my mind.

One of the reasons I'm enjoying VU 1968-1969 live bootlegs so much right now is that they stretch out on almost every song, playing with its structure, adding pieces one night that they'll evidently not add again: but the songs underneath are really solid and so it's no stretch to play that way.

Someone brought up the Band earlier; I'd love to hear them play in a similarly exploratory but every live performance by them I've found has been quite lean (except for "Chest Fever" which doesn't count).

I have rarely come across with a poster whose opinions I disagree with more than in which we apologize for sobering up (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved) on this thread!

But are you having a good time? that's the important question.

Oh yes, no worries there. I've never heard "American Beauty" but then I don't think I've ever heard a Grateful Dead album.

Give it a shot! You won't wake up in a VW van in a puddle of patchouli, I swear.

'xpect I'll get round to it one day

IMHO Euler is right on re. VU bootlegs. They did stretch out the songs a great deal (Sweet) Sister Ray & What Goes On in particular could fan out way into the ozone on feedback missles. They bring me great joy.. Earlier VU boots from circa '66 are also interesting since they really focus on long free improv noise pieces.

The Sweet Jane connection has always intrigued me--the albums are only separated by two months (Loaded was released first), so I'm sure it's quite accidental...I like the Grateful Dead a lot through their first few albums, but I just don't see that anything on American Beauty comes close to "Sweet Jane," "Rock and Roll," or "Oh! Sweet Nuthin'."

my teenage self is smacking my grown self for saying that "Box of Rain," "Sugar Magnolia," and "Ripple" are all better than the Loaded versions of those three songs, but my grown self is stronger & can hit harder & besides what do teenagers know? still, this thread isn't a good way to meet American Beauty - before you can dig it you kinda gotta divest yourself of any anti-Dead baggage you're carrying. Took me years. Five years ago, even, I'd have been arguing that even weak-ass Loaded trumps the collective output of the Grateful Dead. Then one day I said "how well do you actually know this band whose work you always dismiss?" and that was kind of the end of that.

Took me years.

Life really is too short for that

I dunno my exposure to the Dead was limited almost entirely to college acquaintances forcing me to listen to endless show bootlegs and the occasional spin of Workingman's Dead and American Beauty. And then there was that Freaks and Geeks episode with Ripple and some other AB songs in it... I dunno the playing and songwriting has just always struck me as really fucking weak. their stabs at country are pathetic compared with the genuine article, which is the other thing that always put me off them.

living where I do, I can't really shed the baggage, there are so many negative associations with their stuff, and they're constantly shoved in my face on a regular basis.

They seem to be, errrrrrrr, somewhat more visible in the USA than outside the USA, like exponentially more

their stabs at country are pathetic compared with the genuine article, which is the other thing that always put me off them.

there's a whole lot of country & bluegrass pickers covering dead songs who don't really agree with you on this Q btw. obv they generally can't sing for shit, but if you rep for country pickers and not the dead, congrats, you're posing

obv they generally can't sing for shit

this is a big part of country to me

I don't know shit about bluegrass

Some formerly anti-Dead people have opened up enough in the past 5 years to at least check out American Beauty. It's kind of a hippy/jammy/psychedelic/beardo-friendly era right now, at least among the people I know. My mom was really into American Beauty, Workingman's Dead, the first Dead album, and that first New Riders of The Purple Sage record. I grew up hearing those records a lot so I knew it wasn't all tubby noodle-fests. if I'd had to hear endless bootlegs at college first, woulda been much harder to dig em.

I was actually hoping this thread might help divest some folks of baggage, but mostly it's been about Steve Howe. Never a great aid in the divesting of baggage, Steve Howe.

I will also slag off Sweetheart of the Rodeo for similar reasons, if you like

xp

Life really is too short for that

not sure really what you mean - my Dead baggage is essentially the same as Shakey Mo's - I'd hear them and go "oh, Christ, not the fucking Dead." turned out having spent years basically cultivating a reaction-formation based on bullshit social cues was a colossal waste of time & that I'd been missing out on music that I'd really have enjoyed.

I will also slag off Sweetheart of the Rodeo for similar reasons, if you like

lol the singing on that record bugs the shit out of me

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/53/139143421_e433ad8375_o.jpg
this guy was always trouble.

a couple weeks ago as I was moving into a new rehearsal studio I had to pass by not one but TWO different groups of aging fucks with their tie-dyed t-shirts tucked into their dockers arguing about the Dead ("no dude what you gotta hear is that set with just Mickey, Bob, and Jerry kicking it in Marin in '91, so laid back" = ugh I stab you)

not sure really what you mean

I thought you meant you'd spent a few years learning to love them, having to work at it a bit.

genre purity is a wonderful and rewarding pursuit

telling the good from the bad with a given genre = purism?

like, I don't have any problem calling a fair amount of what the Dead did country... it's just shitty country.

i started with what a long strange trip its been when i was 16. just cuz i'd never really listened to them before and thought i should give them a shot. and this was at the height of my punkdom. but, like i said above, also the height of my acidness. i devoured that 2 album set. i couldn't believe how much i loved the songs. black peter, tennessee jed, ramblin' rose, they sounded amazing to me. i stuck to studio stuff for years. and dead set (and reckoning), which is another great showcase for the songs. i still listen to the studio albums way more than i listen to live stuff.

and i love jerry's voice. and old and in the way is a good place to hear dead bluegrass!

as far as rock bands that made great stuff for bluegrass people to play, the dead are right up there with dylan and ccr.

compared with the genuine article compared with the genuine article compared with the genuine article compared with the genuine article compared with the genuine article compared with the genuine article compared with the genuine article

if you wanna argue that their country stuff is better than their source material (Buck Owens, etc.) you are bonkers

xp

I thought you meant you'd spent a few years learning to love them, having to work at it a bit.

no no - it's just that I make a habit of, every few years, checking out something I think I hate to see if I feel differently about it. I recommend this to all music-lovers because there are a lot of dumb reasons for not liking stuff (social cues, meaningless bias, breadth/range of experience i.e. there's stuff that you want to have heard a lot of other stuff before it'll make much sense). and your ears change, your tastes mature or grow or shift, anyway. I saw that American Beauty was getting some 20-anno treatment or something and I was like "give that one a shot, maybe you'll like it" and bang. And then I heard the super-psyched-out debut at a party, and it was like "wait - has this band always been really interesting & I'm just a dick about it?" and it turned out the answer to that Q was "yes."

Shakey Mo they're doing their own thing for Christ's sake not trying to be stuff you wanna be high-falutin' about

I just posted a similar post in the Monae thread re testing one's assumptions.

Maybe we can create an Empire Burlesque vs In the Dark thread to really fuck shit up.

I'm poor and don't like stealing music for free, so testing my assumptions about certain things that I've hated on first listen is not really a luxury I can afford. sorry

it's just that I make a habit of, every few years, checking out something I think I hate to see if I feel differently about it. I recommend this to all music-lovers

Imagine a lot of us do this, or similar, already. But I don't hate the Grateful Dead, they just don't register much either way.

I'm guessing you know somebody you could borrow the key Dead albums from if you were actually interested xpost

I have a hard enough time keeping up with all the music I actually WANT to hear, but then I'm not one of the people around here that gets sent tons of free stuff/downloads whatever they want

xp

I'm guessing you know somebody you could borrow the key Dead albums from if you were actually interested xpost

this is true. the problem is I hate these people and don't want to talk to them.

i'd like to give a shout out to rca special products cuz in the early 80s these were two of my fave things to play:

http://www.arrakis.es/~e.miquel/rnranimal/images/offilp/wildchildlp.jpg

http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/s596397.jpg

(didn't have a lot of money back then. always looking for budget comps. both on pair records!)

lookit Lou's muscles!

The Dead....I really don't know: I've been giving them a chance every now and then for like 30 years - I'm on my third copy of American Beauty, and still, compared to Sweetheart, Gilded Palace, all the Band records, Moby Grape and so on, it doesn't really do it. I do however, love the first NRPS.

"I thought you meant you'd spent a few years learning to love them, having to work at it a bit."

it took me 30 years of listening to finally LOVE the byrds.

took me twenty years of going back to it to finally understand why people loved exile on main street so much.

took me 25 years since i first heard them to truly LOVE and appreciate magazine.

i still listen to the studio albums way more than i listen to live stuff.

This is pretty important. The Dead's live rep as being these masters of improvisation who created these unique tapestries of psychedelic fire every night has been vastly overstated by both their fans and detractors. The early 70s studio stuff is where it's at for me, including the first Jerry and Bobby solo albums.

(although I think there was a glimmer of hope for them in the late 80s just before Brent died - R.I.P.)

i dunno, sometimes I prefer the jammier stuff, though I'm not an intense collector or anything. actually the official live albums usually do the trick.

it took me 30 years of listening to finally LOVE the byrds.

There's quite a few ahead of the Dead in the queue tho!

i dunno, sometimes I prefer the jammier stuff, though I'm not an intense collector or anything. actually the official live albums usually do the trick.

Well yeah, the official live albums are highlights. But if you try to explore further than that, it can be very scattershot indeed.

I've never heard Loaded all the way through though. I think I'm going to try to track down a copy tonight.

I still don't LOVE The Byrds beyond the obvious stuff. 20 years of trying.

I barely even like the Byrds.

Holy shit I love the Byrds so much.
I think a lot of it is their legacy of inspiration.
A lot of my favorite bands have some serious Byrds worship happening.

byrds are fantastic (tho obviously a few rough spots). Clarence White-era has some indispensable stuff. anyone wanting to be convinced should get that Royal Albert Hall show that was released a few years back.

aw Clarence is the best for sure - ever hear that Everley Brothers version of "Cuckoo Bird"? So nice. Also love him on that Gene Clark and the Gosdins record. The Byrds not so much.

Love Dillard and Clark too.

Can't put my finger on why The Byrds elude me.

dunno, sometimes I prefer the jammier stuff, though I'm not an intense collector or anything. actually the official live albums usually do the trick.

Well yeah, the official live albums are highlights. But if you try to explore further than that, it can be very scattershot indeed

xpost: without a net is an exception. it's a bad official live Dead album

don't think i've heard without a net. what year is it from?

speaking of live dead tho: http://www.arthurmag.com/2010/05/07/grateful-dead-mix-volume-2-by-greg-davis/
a nice overview of how the Dead can be stellar live.

Also love him on that Gene Clark and the Gosdins record. The Byrds not so much.

Love Dillard and Clark too.

Can't put my finger on why The Byrds elude me.

^^^cosign all of this. I like some Byrds stuff but their catalog just seems like such a mess, its difficult to wade through

ew yeah - Without A Net is pretty sad, although Feel Like a Stranger and Help->Slipknot->Franklin's are great.

it's just that I make a habit of, every few years, checking out something I think I hate to see if I feel differently about it. I recommend this to all music-lovers because there are a lot of dumb reasons for not liking stuff (social cues, meaningless bias, breadth/range of experience i.e. there's stuff that you want to have heard a lot of other stuff before it'll make much sense). and your ears change, your tastes mature or grow or shift, anyway.

So tremendously OTM. This is the entire story of my last decade as a music freak.

Loaded is my favorite VU album, and I don't care much for the Dead, so...

underrated aerosmith albums has been all over the money on this thread; American Beauty is seriously fucking good. "In the Attics of My Life" could have been on Pet Sounds and that's like the eight best song on this album.

to, me if you were going to pit AB against another 1970 album, the obvious choice (besides Workingman's Dead which I don't like as much) would be After the Gold Rush.

(for instance, both contain throwaway ditties about the coming of morning)

as much as i love neil, after the goldrush has never been one of my favorite records of his. AB pretty much crushes it. i think the gilded palace of sin is maybe the only record being discussed on this thread i genuinely connect with/love more than AB.

1970 album poll would be hella difficult. Didn't Starsailor and Lick My Decals off come out that year too? Monster Movie (or was that 69)?

byrds are fantastic (tho obviously a few rough spots). Clarence White-era has some indispensable stuff. anyone wanting to be convinced should get that Royal Albert Hall show that was released a few years back.

― tylerw, Thursday, May 20, 2010 5:16 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^ this, btw, is OTM. clarence is a god.

xpost
yeah, there's so much 1970 gold...Funhouse, Parachute, Band of Gypsies, Plastic Ono Band

Funkadelic debut too. 1970 was a great year

soundtracks wz 70...

1970 is one of my favourite years...

Fun House
After the Gold Rush
American Beauty
Workingman's Dead
Yeti
Soundtracks
Black Sabbath
Paranoid
Funkadelic
Free Your Mind and Your Ass Will Follow
Led Zep III
Lick My Decals Off
Moondance
Morrison Hotel
Let It Be
Kiln House
Starsailor (still uninitiated as far as Tim Buckley goes)

^plus the other ones Brio said

oh and Loaded duh

What in the world ever happened to became of sweet Jane

― tylerw, Wednesday, May 19, 2010 8:41 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

wasn't Bitches Brew 70 too? crazy year

Look at that fucking list!!! My birth year = best rock year EVAR?

What do you mean by uninitiated re: starsailor, btw?

"I like some Byrds stuff but their catalog just seems like such a mess, its difficult to wade through"

start with the first byrds album and go from there!

or preflyte

haven't heard any Buckley...:(

lots i forgot too re: 1970

Cosmo's Factory
All Things Must Pass
Layla
James Gang Rides Again
Deep Purple in Rock
Soft Machine Third
Nico's Desertshore
first Magma album
first Third Ear Band album
Blows Against the Empire
Osmium
Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus
Lorca
Divina Comedia ou Ando Meio Desligado
The Madcap Laughs
The Least We Can Do is Wave to Each Other
H to He Who Am the Only One

(admittedly, past the Deep Purple I started to list albums I wanted to hear instead of actually have heard, but theyre all ones I legitimately really want to hear)
Just Another Diamond Day

Wait-- jeez-- did Buckley release Lorca, Starsailor and Blue Afternoon all in 1970? That is some anno mirabilis shit right there...

blue afternoon was released in 1970, according to wiki, though all three albums were developed simultaneously.

blue afternoon was released in1969

What a fucking cool trilogy. Each LP so distinct from the others. Shame 2/3 of it has been OOP for like 20 years.

Til the Morning Comes may be a throwaway ditty, but it really pops.

What kind of people are big VU fans? Seriously. I never understood the appeal. That being said Loaded is probably their best album because it has the most poppy radio type songs. Also, I don't get the appeal of much Lou Reed stuff

yeah it's all a matter of taste BUT YER TASTE IS WEIRD

i'm a big VU fan

yeah, i am too.

i don't know what kind of people this makes me though.

our taste is weird

I like this music stuff

I listen to metal machine music for fun

I know yr just trolling Lorax but... well, are there any other bands that make you ask that question? do these bands have anything in common? what does that say about your own tastes?

I mean I'm a huge fan of a lot of bands (A LOT), VU are just one of them.

i don't think i've ever played the whole thing. MMM. i should sometime.

Other bands: Nick Cave, The Fall, Joy Division and Elliot Smith

hmm Elliot Smith seems like the odd man out there

cuz Cave, Reed, Smith, and Curtis all share certain vocal commonalities

Xp: Change Elliot to Tom Waits then

I guess my problem is mostly the vocals.

kinda atonal, declamatory, unconventional approach to singing/being a frontman. is this something that bothers you? Cave and Reed especially have their sweet, more conventional balladeer moments

xp

I think you left out Captain Beefheart

fall fan holding ppl to vocal standards lol

lorax: you are baffled by the same bands as I am (except Waits and the Velvet Underground)! We are like bros of confusion!

No Edward, he is baffled by The Fall. He's a King Crimson fan who holds all those bands to vocal standards, which is a little lol but in a diff way. (I do <3 Wetton and Lake's voices)

ok, I get it, he doesn't like rock n roll

I don't think you can explain music in a way that will make people like it, not really... but surely it should be obvious that part of these guys' appeal to other people is that they DON'T conform to typical singer standards, that they have each developed their own strange diction/vocabulary/style in order to make a tool of what would otherwise be a physical limitation.

Vocal standards are sooo subjective. But I like to think that if you grouped people by what vocals they like and dislike and come up with some sort of spectrum with two vocal standards as opposites, the people on either end of the spectrum would have significantly different personality traits.

I guess I don't really have vocal standards. I mean I like all those guys (well, Nick Cave probably the least), but I also like a lot of conventionally pretty singers - I mean the Beach Boys are like ALL TIME gods to me. same with Mavis Staples. what does that say about me

i used to dig tom waits and i can't listen to him anymore. he's too waitsian. same with nick cave! i just can't listen to it. if the mercy seat came on the radio i wouldn't turn it off, but, man, i really can't take those dudes now.

yeah I don't think they're bad but I rarely dig that stuff out. I'm just not in the mood mostly.

the tortured, drunken melodrama mood

might feel differently if some horrible tragedy befell me tbh

'Too Waitsian'

Bingo! This is exactly why I can't listen to him any more either. I tried to bring the magic back about 3 years ago and it just wouldn't take.

well, it's a schtick like any other

that tom waits lyrics thread on ilm might be my favorite thread of all time. sheer genius.

"I tried to bring the magic back about 3 years ago and it just wouldn't take."

my last stab at it was buying those two vinyl albums that came out at the same time. blood money and alice.it was torture.

great record covers though.

Tom Waits & Nick Cave: I've only had one album of each and I think I've listened to both maybe once. Neither of them clicked. But I don't think I'll ever get over The Fall.

Go figure.

Smith's stuff is a good deal denser than Waits or Cave imho, he's a little more inscrutable. also funnier.

But I like to think that if you grouped people by what vocals they like and dislike and come up with some sort of spectrum with two vocal standards as opposites, the people on either end of the spectrum would have significantly different personality traits.

On what grounds do you think this?

Hongro's Law iirc

Xp

Maybe I'd do multiple spectrums on different grounds tbh. Plus I would go ahead and do statistical tests on stuff besides vocals... I'm generally interested in the relationship of various music genres/traits and different aspects of personality (openness and neuroticness for example)

100% of insane people love the beatles in my experience

I think you have a lot of work in front of you Cap'n

I'll be the 1st to admit it: I despise "good" singers. They tend to come across as a bit precious & pretentious. 'You were born to rock, you'll never be an opera star.' I like Waits, Cave, Smith, Reed, etc much better.

I'm deeply saddened by the tragic tale of somebody buying Alice & Blood Money in hopes they would re-ignite the Tom Waits spark. For my money they rank - oh, Last & Even-Laster-Last on the Waits list. I can't think of anything since, or even a bit before that that's not superior to those clunkers. Mule Variations is straight-up amazing. Real Gone is really interesting, emphasizing tuned percussion EVEN MORE than Tom usually does. But yeah - Alice & Blood Money stink.

82% of jerks like the Dead

I'm totally serious tho, worked in mental health for a decade and a half. Go onto any long-term psych ward and put on a Beatles record. See what happens. It's like magic. Somebody should commission a study about it.

100% of chill bros love CCR

2% of uptight Norwegians enjoy Ice Cube

50% of insane people love Half Man Half Biscuit

100% of terminal wards will yell at you if you try to get them into Merzbow, also

wait what is this thread about again

http://www.onlinemovieguru.com/images/movies/loaded.jpg
vs.
http://www.energyenhancement.org/testimonial_pics/AB_poster_big.jpg

tbh they're both terrible

that poster says "look closer" because if you stare at the belly button long enough it looks like the face from that one edvard munch painting btw just fyi

ok, I get it, he doesn't like rock n roll

I know you were kidding but I do think it's a bit interesting when some people identify a particular sort of (broadly) post-Dylan (or post-punk) non-singing as being more authentically "rock and roll", considering that people like Elvis Presley or Jerry Lee Lewis or doo-wop groups had much more vocal technique. (Not saying they sang like Jon Anderson or Greg Lake either, mind.)

i need to get a copy of american beauty only heard it a couple of times

I did some science here
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/617/truckin.jpg

Love American Beauty the movie!

you definitely change as you age. i know for a fact that underrated aerosmith albums is gonna LOVE loaded in his golden years. he's gonna be like: wait, i had a problem with this! this album is so much fun to listen to while i sit on the front porch whittling!

it's gonna happen. you wait.

anybody who likes Uncle Tupelo or Wilco should have no problem getting into stuff like Candyman or Brokedown Palace or Jack Straw or He's Gone or Brown-Eyed Woman from Europe 72...

Captain Lorax did you really make that chart, it is a thing of beauty

Yessiree

Jack Straw is definitely one of my top 5 Dead songs

yeah that's a big one for me too actually...

Both are my fave album by the respective act. This has to be "American Beauty" though.

Picked up Loaded last night.at.the.local library*. I made it about halfway through and my first.impression is that it reminds me a lot of the Stones or something. The band sounds less engaged or something. I've never heard a full VU album before. My impressions are based on an old greatest hits album I had on cassette, plus hearing sister ray once. I'll definitely give it more than one spin though.


*along with Emporer Tomato Ketchup, the Richard D. James album, and the last Jay Reatard! It doesn't seem like that long since I would feel lucky to find a Little Village album or something there. My how the times have changed.

my last stab at it was buying those two vinyl albums that came out at the same time. blood money and alice.it was torture.

― scott seward, Thursday, May 20, 2010 5:45 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

there's some crazy shit on the original alice demos recorded in germany in the 90s

Actually I did DL those demos and they were pretty nice, it's true.

i started with what a long strange trip its been when i was 16. just cuz i'd never really listened to them before and thought i should give them a shot. and this was at the height of my punkdom. but, like i said above, also the height of my acidness. i devoured that 2 album set. i couldn't believe how much i loved the songs. black peter, tennessee jed, ramblin' rose, they sounded amazing to me. i stuck to studio stuff for years. and dead set (and reckoning), which is another great showcase for the songs. i still listen to the studio albums way more than i listen to live stuff.

What a Long Strange Trip It's Been was totally my jam way back in high school in the early Eighties. It was the first Grateful Dead album that I ever owned until I bought a cassette of Workingman's Dead in the early Ninties. Point of clarification: while the first half of
What a Long Strange Trip It's Been was studio stuff, the second half was all live performances. I had it on cassette and used to listen to side two way more than the first side. Loved those renditions of Jack Straw, Tennessee Jed and Ramble on Rose.

It's a very solid compilation that is also the only place you can get the single version of Dark Star (which I have used to convert people to the cause fwiw).

Voted for Loaded over Ameerican Beauty. It would have been lot more difficult choice to make if it had been Loaded versus Workingman's Dead, but I think I still would have leaned towards Loaded

For me, all Dead blows away all Velvet Underground. Ive never understood what the big deal about VU is.

This is really tough, totally love and adore both bands. But I have to say that American Beauty is my favorite Dead studio album, while Loaded is my third favorite VU studio joint - so, by that logic, I'm going with AB.

The Dead's live rep as being these masters of improvisation who created these unique tapestries of psychedelic fire every night has been vastly overstated by both their fans and detractors.

This statement isn't as nuanced as I wish it had been. Live dead is some special shit, to be sure.

For me, all Dead blows away all Velvet Underground. Ive never understood what the big deal about VU is.

The exact reverse for me.

There's never been "a big deal" about the Grateful Dead in the UK, so the question doesn't arise.

There probably should have been.

Nah, leave them to the Americans

dead pretty popular w/ the wire crowd, known chris bohn, edwin pouncey and keenan are all dheads

Think we can agree that a few music critics discovering them relatively late in life is not really comparable to their status in the US!

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

predictions? i'm thinking it'll be close.

Loaded will take it.

..in the butt

Loaded will win, and I will be annoyed, because I love the Velvets but Loaded completely sucks compared to American Beauty

I love the Velvets but think Loaded is the least of their work. I don't like much of the Dead's catalog but American Beauty is stone cold classic. Hope the Dead crush this, though I'd be surprised if they do.

and what will that say about your average ILXor if VU wins this?

They like Loaded more than some of us.

and what will that say about your average ILXor if VU wins this?

you can't actually make any statements about any "average" ilxer but I would be pretty surprised if a % of voters aren't people who've heard Loaded but mainly know about American Beauty that it's by the Dead, who they dismiss out of hand

I love "Friend of the Devil" but could never get into the rest of the album; I have never heard the Velvet Underground.

^^^stuff like this is why I usually don't ost too much on ILM

Abbott you have fantastic taste in music. While it's surprising you haven't heard the Velvets, I certainly wouldn't hold it against you!

I'm just trying to get a fire going without starting it myself

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Justice is served.

in yr face trustafarians

close vote! shakey I believe you mean "another victory for trustafarians" n'est-pas

http://www.hemptopia.org/images/camera_164_4jpg.jpg

^^^rocking Ripple right now on their boombox

that one dude is rockin a slipknot t-shirt, I will smoke him out if he's in the neighborhood

i get so annoyed by people who dismiss the dead because of their fans, but then i remember that part of the reason i have small aversion to VU is this: i went to a party at a brownstone in harlem where my friend was housesitting and the guy who lived there was some music executive and i looked through his records and he had about 50 copies, all used in good condition, of Loaded on his shelf.

LOL I used to work just inside that dark 2nd floor window next to the CAMERA sign. I was always relieved when the hippies merely stood on that spot as opposed to playing bongos all day.

Only a thousand people bought Loaded, but they all bought 50 copies each.

he had about 50 copies, all used in good condition, of Loaded on his shelf.
what does this story mean?

also, heyyyy, i used to work on the pearl street mall too! hippies!

I'd much rather hang with Dead fans than music critic geek, pointy headed nerd "Velvet Underground fans".

Lets see, hanging with Kesey-Prankster types, dancing all night, with barrels of Owsely tinged punch at the ready with everybody looking to fuck and have fun, or sitting on cross legged on the floor with Village type dorks discussing Sartre and painted soupcans listening to a fucking viola screech while wearing all black?

I'll take the former

yeah i don't know about that...

if by dead fans you mean people like the people in the picture above, i might have to hang with the pointy headed geeks. the dudes above would smoke all my local organic triple-cured weed. if i got the geeks high i could turn them on to poco.

I'm sure you'd be made welcome at either gathering, Bill

I would much rather hang out with stereotypes than strawmen.

I'd much rather hang with Dead fans than music critic geek, pointy headed nerd "Velvet Underground fans".
Never got this attitude. I've always found the Velvets to be a very accessible pop band myself. Don't think you have to be a pretentious intellectual to enjoy them.

I remember this Rollins spoken-word bit about Velvet Underground fans standing alone on boxes in darkened bedrooms or something. I could see doing that to Nico...

Depends where you come from obviously.

There are almost certainly more Dead lyrics suited to standing alone on a box in a darkened room.

Velvets lyrics tend to be more about climbing inside a box and mailing yourself to an ex-girlfriend

alright that's serious LOLs right there...

I wz repping hard for American Beauty all throughout this thread (and the AB poll) but White Light/White Heat shits all over anything the Dead has ever done...

but I mean, I still really like the Dead you know...

Velvets lyrics tend to be more about climbing inside a box and mailing yourself to an ex-girlfriend

???!??!

There's this song called "The Gift" y'see

"Song" is pushing it tho, I suppose

yeah seriously...White Light/White Heat: Buy it. Learn it. Love it.

(then do the same for American Beauty)

Anyway, whatever stereotypes people have about the Velvets, they certainly don’t apply to Loaded.

I have never knowingly met a Grateful Dead fan, so I suppose I'll have to rely on the stereotype

actually saying that WL/WH is a pretty fucking rotten turn of phrase up there...Fun House and White Light/White Heat are all about messy catharsis, they are emotional black holes in which one gets sucked into and get lost in, loses themselves in...American Beauty and After the Gold Rush are pretty much the antitheses of this, those albums are v. restorative, and all about healing, and about the Return of the Human(e)...

the only difference here is that Funhouse actually, you know, kicks some mother-fucking ass. Except for "I heard her call my name", WL WH just lays there moaning and groaning like a dying cow. Never understood the love for VU.

sister ray

That's some cow there

Bill Magill should squeeze its teats.

Its a bunch of shit. I guess I don't "get" the Velvet Underground, I guess I should somehow come into a trust fund, move into the village, wear black all they time, and argue about existentialism in French all day. Maybe a light bulb will go on that way.

Too bad Herm Neuname is not around. He could start a Sister Ray vs. Dark Star poll. Im going Dark Star.

i appreciate Bill Magill's need to rock and party and fuck but to say that VU never rocked the fuck out is crazy talk.

Its a bunch of shit. I guess I don't "get" the Velvet Underground, I guess I should somehow come into a trust fund, move into the village, wear black all they time, and argue about existentialism in French all day. Maybe a light bulb will go on that way.

If said light bulb were on, you'd still bump your head.

Bill's just having his fun

(i voted AB in this poll, and there's very little rocking out on it)

Fun House and White Light/White Heat are all about messy catharsis, they are emotional black holes in which one gets sucked into and get lost in, loses themselves in
i know what you're saying, but both of those records are also ... fun! and funny! i think it's kinda misrepresenting them to paint them as these utterly dark, goth-y kinda things. everybody gets something different out of them, i guess.

Bill's just having his fun

^ correct. And i probably would hit my head on the lightbulb, I'm 6'4"

Too tall to be a Velvets fan, they're all scrawny runts who hide from sunlight

Short and small enough to squeeze into their black turtlenecks.

Too bad Herm Neuname is not around. He could start a Sister Ray vs. Dark Star poll. Im going Dark Star.

VU all the way Bill, hate the dead. Tho Dark Star is the only dead track I like.

A close race & an interesting thread. Sister Ray v. Dark Star is a non-starter for me. Sister Ray's first few bars pack enough punch to get a TKO. Dark Star's good & all, but... No contest.

can we all agree that the joy division version of sister ray sucks anyway? thanks

yes we can

Joy Division - buncha arty trust fund existentialist pseudo-intellectuals from, errr, Macclesfield

well, that makes at least one person imagining that there's somebody who said or thought that, anyway

I am not familiar with this "Macclesfield" that you speak of, sir.

xpost

Let me assure that Sartre is not much read in its environs

Macclesfield is the Manchester area (is it a suburb? neighborhood? I've been there but I'm not clear on whether it's its own town or what) Joy Division is from, Bill. It's working-class. That means that all Joy Division fans are grandfathered into the working class; none of them are actually college students, ever. They all work in factories and naturally understand the condition of being young and alienated and English.

And they won't have any of his art-school nonsense from the Velvets, so don't try

Apologies if trust funds are common among the working class of American cities

can we all agree that the joy division version of sister ray sucks anyway? thanks

― in which we apologize for sobering up (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:45 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark

Would pay big money to hear a Joy Division cover of "Truckin'" however.

most people attacking "trust fund" types couldn't provide a working definition of what a trust fund is anyway, it just means "ppl I don't like & totally consider myself different from"

Don't ask me, I don't know what it is either, it's American

Is a trust fund the same thing as what my Dad refers to as "the free ride"?

You stop any denizen of Greenwich Village on the street, and they can quote from Being and Nothingness on command...in French. It's fucking amazing!

a trust fund is what you get when you collect a certain amount of grateful dead bootlegs on cassette. phil lesh magically appears with a bag full of cash.

And most of them speak Welsh in homage to viola-screecher John Cale (xp)

I should have added to my grossly overbroad sterotype that they also smoke Gauloises. Are those available in Macclesfield? I'd like to throw a beret in there somewhere.

old friend of mine was the only "trust fund" kid i ever knew. fave band: fugazi.

surely this wins some kind of argument somewhere

can we all agree that the joy division version of sister ray sucks anyway? thanks

― in which we apologize for sobering up (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:45 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^otm

old friend of mine was the only "trust fund" kid i ever knew. fave band: fugazi.

Ian Mackaye was a total trust-funder fyi

slumming rich kids is the secret power of rock music

Fun House and White Light/White Heat are all about messy catharsis, they are emotional black holes in which one gets sucked into and get lost in, loses themselves in
i know what you're saying, but both of those records are also ... fun! and funny! i think it's kinda misrepresenting them to paint them as these utterly dark, goth-y kinda things. everybody gets something different out of them, i guess.

― tylerw, Wednesday, May 26, 2010 10:23 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

actually I think WLWH's humor is a big part of its gravitational pull...it's great to laugh along with the "what-a-shlub" humour of "The Gift", to share in Lou's hipster superiority, or to partake in the perverted glee of "Lady Godiva", but keep following along with Lou and all of a sudden somebody's sucking on your dingdong and somebody else is getting shot (and all you care about is the carpet getting stained) and before you know it, you're in the back seat of a cop car, going for a ride...
same thing goes for Fun House: the exhilirating momentum that drives the first side starts to explode against its own limits, its own forms--the rudimentary song-structures devised to contain and focus it--until there is nothing left but pure noise...

I'm not saying that either album is dark or goth-y...what I'm saying that the (very seductive) impetus for destruction in both of those albums is so absolute that they can leave you, after prolonged exposure to each, with very little besides the Abyss...whereas After the Gold Rush and American Beauty are more about healing and restoring order and equanimity...American Beauty is particularly extraordinary in that it uses the Abyss as a starting-point for rebuilding...

yeah, no that's true, wl/wh & funhouse don't really offer any way out of their abysses -- or maybe the only way out is to become the abyss.

right, and American Beauty makes becoming the abyss sound like a sweet and gentle ideal ("make myself a bed by the waterside" "listen to the river sing sweet songs to rock my soul" "such a long long time to be gone, and a short time to be here")

I don't get this abyss stuff

or you could say that Grateful Dead finds the sweetness and gentleness of already having become the Abyss...

http://cinematropolis.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/theabyss.jpg

http://blogs.roanoke.com/rtblogs/dancasey/files/2009/10/lsd_sheet.jpg

If I had me a shotgun, I'd blow you straight to hell.

Got a tip they're gonna kick the door in again

shakey mo,

i had not heard mackaye was a "trust funder" please to provide documentation for your claim pls

just going by what I remember from an old punk planet interview about his family supporting/bankrolling his early endeavors

ha well see aerosmith's comment on people misunderstanding what a trust fund really is

mackaye had a reasonably well-off family, iirc, but that doesn't mean he's a trustfunder. i have no idea.

a trust fund is when parents/family members have set aside a financial investment portfolio for their progeny to draw on as income

fyi

cannot believe we're having this discussion

trust fun = trust fun

TRUST FUN

ian mackaye worked at baskin robbins for money when he was a teen - he's a "trust fund" dude if your def. of trust fund is "anybody who ever got any kind of help at all from his family"

I'll find the interview later

the famous rock legend trust funder is gram parsons, right?

james taylor

per a friend of mine i emailed with:

mackaye's dad was a columnist for wash. post.
mom was a public school teacher

worked as a paperboy and at baskin robbins to fund early minor thread stuff.

this does not sound like "trust fund" to me.

xp (james taylor in the rich kid sense, maybe he didn't have a trust fund. can't think of any other 'rock legends')

townes van zandt came from a really rich texas oil family , literally had a trust fund or something like it if i remember that documentary correctly

also, honestly criticizing mackaye is pretty dumb considering the amount of work he put in to dischord and his bands and keeping ticket prices and album prices low, etc etc....

"you've got a friend" was written from the POV of james taylor's trust fund I think

(i know, i know, carole king wrote it)

hahahaha

now i can't remember why we're talking about this

geez guys all I meant to imply was that Mackaye had money (this is NOT A CRITICISM btw), didn't realize you'd all get yr panties in a bunch. like I said I will post the Punk Planet interview I was referring to later when I get home and can pull the book off the shelf

this is more time/thought than I've devoted to Mackaye in like 20 years fyi, seriously do not give shit

well when you said he was a trust funder i thought that mean he had a trust fund.

not, like had parents who were employed.

but I think one thing we can all agree on is if Mackaye grew up upper middle class, Loaded is a better album than American Beauty - but if he grew up lower to middle class, American Beauty is a better album

i think it's the other way around

MacKaye also worked in a pet store scooping animal shit with Henry Rollins.

what a sell-out

chelle-out

oops wrong thread

this thread has gone so many fucking crazy directions
I miss the days when it was about Steve Howe

we never really addressed the true issue though: what jobs did steve howe have as a teenager?

worked the Frostee Freeze with Bob Weir

rocked short pants every day

what jobs did steve howe have as a teenager?

^ I think he signed with the Dodgers at a young age. And set up a trust fund for his yet to be spawned "progeny"

it's worse, he's saying STEVE HOWE was a better sideman than Sterling Morrison

― tylerw, Wednesday, May 19, 2010 4:57 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

And this statement is so fucking true, Morrison withers pathetically in comparison to Howe.

Morrison was a better match for Reed than Howe

(guessing you haven't heard the Lou Reed solo album in question)

We all agree Steve Howe would have saved the Velvet Underground from the mess Sterling Morrison made of it.

Can we stick to the high school employment histories of random musicians?

I hear Varg Vikernes washed dishes at the local old folks home

Billy Yule played drums in pick-up bands.

if only steve howe could have been in all the great bands. dude would've taken CCR to the NEXT LEVEL.

(guessing you haven't heard the Lou Reed solo album in question)

I havent. If Howe is on it, I would certainly like to. Is it his first one called Lou Reed?

it's called Steve Howe

I bet Rick Wakeman was pissed about that

It's called Steve Howe's Armada featuring Rick Wakeman and Lou Reed

w/special appearance by Paul Keogh

prefer his second album, Trustfunder

features percussion by a young Ian Mackaye iirc

and the next one was called Davey Lopes. I think Reed's career hit a nosedive the time he collaborated with Ron Cey and Steve Garvey, however.

lolz

Wrenching memorial album "Songs For Lasorda" brought him back though

"Magic and Loss in the Bottom of the 9th"

Steve Sax on sax

that Lou Reed debut is so much better than Loaded

American Beauty > Lou Reed self-titled debut > Tales from Topographic Oceans > Loaded

all your other half-assed opinions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that half-assed opinion

imo:

some of his half-assed opinions >>>> some other half-assed opinions >>> that half-assed opinion >>> even more half-assed opinions

actually maybe 5 >s for the last one

Shakey I can't help it that Loaded sucks so bad & is such a disappointing record

lol

damn it, did I miss the window for Lou Reed-related baseball near-puns?

Save it for the Mistrial vs In the Dark thread.

i was going to talk about fernando valenzuela on fretless bass ...

lol

Mike Royko on rhythm guitar.

Steve Yeager played a mean "thingy hanging from catcher's mask to protect adam's apple" on Loaded.

I'm Waiting For The Manny (Being Manny)

White Light/High Heat

The Dodger Blue Mask

Los Angeles Angels Death Song (of Anaheim)

bahahaha

Perfect Game

not quite sure what to do with 'run run run'

Sister (Devil) Ray

Los Angeles Angels Death Song (of Anaheim)

― Brio, Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:18 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^perfect

Los Angeles Angels Death Song (of Anaheim)

― Brio, Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:18 PM (30 seconds ago)

winner

(Vin) Scully Can't Dance

"i'm waiting for the manny mota card i bought to increase in value"

Lady Godiva's Tommy-John Surgery

White Light/White Sox

Sal Bando Can't Dance

Los Angeles Angels Death Song (of Anaheim)

genuine lol

that one is impossible to beat

Black Sox Death Song could be the b-side.

more on mckaye:

Ian MacKaye is born on April 16, 1962 in Washington D.C. to William R. and Mary Anne “Ginger” MacKaye. Both writers, Bill left the Seminary and later worked for the Washington Post for 20 years, including a stint as religion editor. Prior to this, Bill was a White House reporter and was in the motorcade when JFK was assassinated; most recently, he edited the crossword puzzle for the Washington Post Magazine. Ginger was a historical writer (“Ian MacKaye,” Dan Sinker, Punk Planet, #31, May/June 1999, p.41) and later became the unlikely matriarch of D.C. punk. Ian is one of five children and the MacKaye family is close. “When I didn’t go to school, my parents didn’t give me a hard time at all,” MacKaye later tells Punk Planet. “They were totally supportive. They knew that music was so important to me.” (Sinker, 41) "

“Ian MacKaye,” Dan Sinker, Punk Planet, #31, May/June 1999, p.41

Sinker? As opposed to Changeup, or Splitter?

“Ian MacKaye,” Dan Sinker, Punk Planet, #31, May/June 1999, p.41

Sinker? As opposed to Changeup, or Splitter?

“Ian MacKaye,” Dan Sinker, Punk Planet, #31, May/June 1999, p.41

Sinker? As opposed to Changeup, or Splitter?

...Tales from Topographic Oceans > Loaded

Sweet baby Jesus, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

i mean, you wanna talk about Fragile or Even Close to the Edge > Loaded, well ok. But Topographic is a bridge too fuckin far..

this thread has taught us: if steve howe plays on it, it's gotta be better than loaded.

Yeah I mean what's next: Brain Salad Surgery >>>> In Too Much Too Soon?

basically the thing is though for me personally despite "sweet jane" being a much-loved song by me (in any incarnation other than the Loaded version): [generic album that's even modestly interesting] > Loaded

like for 100% sure there isn't a one of the Lou Reed solo albums through Street Hassle that I don't prefer to Loaded

I haven't heard all of Lou's solo albums from that period but the two that I have heard: Berlin and Transformer don't even touch Loaded for me. Berlin is just blah, and Transformer was patchy for me.

please tell me which of these songs make transformer 'patchy'

1. "Vicious" – 2:58
2. "Andy's Chest" – 3:20
3. "Perfect Day" – 3:46
4. "Hangin' 'Round" – 3:35
5. "Walk on the Wild Side" – 4:15

Side two

6. "Make Up" – 3:00
7. "Satellite of Love"– 3:42
8. "Wagon Wheel" – 3:19
9. "New York Telephone Conversation" – 1:33
10. "I'm So Free" – 3:09
11. "Goodnight Ladies" – 4:21

side 1 = unimpeachable
side 2 = you can strike makeup (if you hate fun) and wagon wheel I guess but uhhh there is no planet on which transformer doesn't kill loaded with its first side alone

andy's chest, makeup, ny telephone conversation, goodnight ladies

+ wagon wheel

"Wagon Wheel"
New York Telephone Conversation"
"Goodnight Ladies"

I never, ever listen to Transformer. With the exception of the obvious exceptions, most of it is an unfunny joke. Maybe a gay boy in 1972 was moved by "Make Up"; it sounds forced and corny. When I was young, confused, and lonely, the Velvets "Some Kinda Love" said more about accepting myself than this drag show.

(but loaded is patchy in 100% the same way)

Agreed. I never listen to Loaded either.

people not likin' andy's chest

I am living in bizarro world

people not likin' loaded

i am living etc etc etc

loaded is just fun. its so easy to like. i don't get hate for it at all. its like hating les paul and mary ford or patience and prudence or something.

(and I don't listen to any velvets or lou, either, but that has largely to do with the fact that when I was 14-16 I listened to Lou & the Velvets every single day of my life just to be able to stand staying alive, and continued super-regular listening until I was 19-ish or so)

yeah i kinda burned out on vu too by the end of my teens. stuff was constant in my life for a good three years.

still lotsa love though.

transformer and loaded seem more similar to each other than they are to any other VU or Lou Reed solo albums, actually, imo it's weird that anyone would love one and violently dislike the other.

(lou reed at his peak as a radio-friendly songwriter + lots of goofy filler)

I don't really violently dislike it I just think it's lame compared to the really good stuff

I listened to the Velvets for a whole year when I was twenty-one and still love them. I just like Loaded less.

hey, scott and aerosmith: how readily available was the Velvets stuff in the early and mid eighties? By the time of VU I know genuine interest existed, but before then...?

I only like Vicious, Perfect Day, Walk on the Wild Side and Satellite of Love off of Transformer,maybe Hanging Around, maaaaybe Wagon Wheel. That's it for me.

when I first got into them it was completely impossible to find anything in southern California stores, at least out where I lived. You could get the first album for 4.99 but otherwise forget it - that one & transformer were the easiest records to find. I had a friend whose parents were professors and I asked him, when he went to France with the fam for 6 weeks in the summer, to make sure and see if the French record stores had any Velvet Underground records. He brought me back White Light/White Heat, which I had dreamt of hearing. I don't remember when I got the third album. Loaded I'd wanted to hear for ages and I finally got it when it either went back into print or whoever had the distro got some kind of Music Plus deal because suddenly there it was. Oh fuck yes! This one has the studio version of Sweet Jane on it, that is my favorite damn song! This is gonna be so hot! It sucked though.

tbh that was right around the point at which I said "fuck this, I think I'm gonna start jamming some old aerosmith albums"

"hey, scott and aerosmith: how readily available was the Velvets stuff in the early and mid eighties?"

i found loaded first. an 80's pressing. then the live at max's album. those were in most record stores. it was hard to find reissues of the verve stuff where i was, but i eventually found reissues of everything. then it got easy after the vu/another view interest in their stuff. so i listened to loaded and max's A LOT before i ever heard the first album.

I got into the VU in high school but never really listened to any solo Lou Reed until like five years ago - a friend played Vicious on a jukebox at the bar and I thought it was Living After Midnight at first.

If it's lame, what the good stuff? Dude's rather prolific so I don't know where to start.

found raw power in 1984, but i had a really hard time tracking down a copy of funhouse. don't even remember when i bought my first copy.

'coney island baby' xp

This compilation was essential to me in the early nineties:

http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/8926617d925b7ec837cc10f29fdb34a0/178.jpg

I found & Nico and 1969 V.U. Live first, both on the same day in 1982 at Vinyl Solution in Tuscaloosa. Found Loaded about a year later, and then there were reissues of the 2nd and 3rd albums around...1984?...I remember the WL/WH reissue because of the Kurt Loder liner notes. I liked his turn of phrase regarding "I Heard Her Call My Name" guitar solo -- "one of the most withering guitar flipouts in rock history" or something like that.

If it's lame, what the good stuff? Dude's rather prolific so I don't know where to start.

ppl who think transformer is lame will be generally limited to dudes trolling me on this thread - transformer is on pretty much anybody's list of great Lou solo discs. Coney Island Baby is the masterpiece (though it was ignored for years), Street Hassle used to seem better than it does now but I think it's still worth a look, The Blue Mask is outstanding. The weirder ones from the 70s - Sally Can't Dance, The Bells, Rock and Roll Heart, the solo debut which is basically older songs & songs in the VU style treated differently than you'd usually hear them treated, Berlin and -- zat it? am I forgetting anything? -- anyway, I'd put those ones off, even though I totally love Sally Can't Dance.

("am I forgetting anything" between the debut & the Blue Mask, I mean. after the Blue Mask, my interest wanes.)

growing up in publio. which should be nobody's first lou reed album.

public.

I will rep for Set The Twilight Reeling and Ecstasy: he played lots of guitar, expended on cranky-awesome tunes about egg cream, sex with your parents, and having great sex with Laurie Anderson.

kinda like the sonic youth thing for me. more power to them, but, um, i'll pass.

since we're all sharing... I was 13 in 1986, and for Hannukah my older brother bought me cassette copies of Nico and the 3rd album. reissues had started to hit by that time so over the course of jr. high/high school I got pretty much everything else. Loaded was the hardest to find, I don't think I heard that until just before my freshman year of college.

cosign w aero re: lou solo in the 70s, think I've already cited Coney Island Baby as the best on this very thread fwiw

Oh fuck yes! This one has the studio version of Sweet Jane on it, that is my favorite damn song! This is gonna be so hot! It sucked though.
i don't want to keep on baiting aero here, but man, I love the studio version of Sweet Jane. Everything about it is perfect! The weird intro, the sound of the guitars on the opening riff, lou's impeccably cool phrasing ....

Mary Anne “Ginger” MacKaye, who rather improbably spawned the hit television series "Gilligan's Island",

the big orange book is what made me want to buy a Velvet Underground album. I got my real dad to buy me a cassette copy of Nico when I was 15...I think it was at Schuler's Books in Lansing. Those albums were not easy to find in southern Michigan. I didn't get any other VU album until I lived in Brighton. If I remember correctly, I got White Light/White Heat after hearing a thirty-second preview of I Heard Her Call My Name at Borders, and the third one soon after.

I first heard songs from Fun House on Napster, prolley in 2001--even back then, they were some of the most potent examples of rock music I had ever heard--and I think when I moved in with my grandma in Brighton and got myself gainfully employed, Fun House was one of the first albums I bought. The other two came shorty after.

I got into the Grateful Dead in Alma College when I started hanging out at this fraternity house (which I would end up joining) and they were always playing Skeletons from the Closet and Europe '72. I bought Workingman's Dead in the summer between my first and second year at Alma, and bought American Beauty around Halloween of my second year, when I was living at that fraternity house. AB was one of a few albums that were REALLY big with me at the time. Others were Kid A, Mama's Gun, Stankonia, and the first Remy Zero album...

ppl who think transformer is lame will be generally limited to dudes trolling me on this thread

Anyone who doesn't share your opinions and aesthetic tastes is trolling you? That has to be one of the most liberal definitions that I have ever seen. Or, was that tongue-in-cheek?

Anyone who doesn't share your opinions and aesthetic tastes is trolling you?

emphatically yes

You're really Armond White, aren't you?

the first time i ever heard lou reed was the video for "dirty blvd"

i still kinda love "new york" as an album cuz i bought it at musicland on cassette and listened to the shit out of it

ha, i think that's the first time i (knowingly) heard Lou Reed too. On VH1 or something. got the cassette from the library.

weirdly the phrase "Good evening Mr Waldheim and Pontiff how are you?" pops into my head at random moments - and i never even liked that song

i bet "new york" sold more on cassette than any other lou reed related album

"halloween parade" kinda got me as a kid, i thought it was impossibly sad cuz i couldn't really imagine ppl i knew dying

i thought that "last great american whale" was super heavy, but now i think about it and i'm like: what?

weird how crucial that album seems -- i listened to the hell out of it too! like, with my family, in the car. i had to defend lou reed's delivery on "last great american whale" when my dad made fun of it, even though i didn't really get it either and didn't know dick about lou reed or anything.

xp lololol

I listened to that album a lot in high school. and pretty much never again since

I loooove "There is No Time."

I listened to that album a lot in high school. and pretty much never again since

It is just one of those album you listen to again, isn't it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaKpNEWsUzo

Correction: It is just one of those album you never listen to again, isn't it?

maybe I will d/l it now for lolz

dirty blvd is still kind of a jam

god i want to listen to this so bad right now

i know, i can't find any utubs!!! that's why i'm fuckin with german dude's living room campfire version

My mother said she saw him in Chinatown
but you can't always trust your mother

^^^this is a great line, I gotta admit

basically i guess if you were a certain age and predisposed to being a music nerd, you'd probably read bits about VU and lou reed but not really heard anything except "walk on the wildside" or maybe "sweet jane" on a real adventerous classic rock station

then all of a sudden a lou video was getting decent play on MTV and you could actually find something of his to buy

Ha - funny everybody had such similar experiences, liking it made me feel mature or something. If somebody did a "Squid and The Whale" type movie set in 1989, the kid would have to be really into "New York".

yeah i felt like this was music for "adults" or something

this was billed as a "return to form" at the time too ii(dimly)rc, so everybody's parents and older collegy dudes were buying it. it has a very '89 RS 4 star review vibe about it.

yeah i felt like this was music for "adults" or something

Think this is why I can't listen to it anymore. Yes, it was a big "return to form" album, don't really know why as he'd only made one bad album since his last good album.

this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKL4NA5qJk

i've never actually listened to a whole Lou Reed album, never really felt compelled to seek it out...I wz really surprised to be snooping through my stepdad's vinyl and find New York...

(my real dad only had a shitty 1974 live album....he did have Too Much Too Soon though, which similarly shocked the hell out of me)

lol yeah i used to get really interested if RS gave something a high score

I had a poster of the album cover on my wall in high school. spent a lot of time trying to figure out if all the people on the cover were actually Lou or not.

Maybe it was something to do with the times, Neil Young was "returning to form" at roughly at the same time. Perhaps Dylan too, I wasn't paying any attention to him though.

I've never listened to New York but I've had a copy for years---you guys are definitely whetting my appetite for latter-day Lou!

omg the cameos in that Soul Man video

Kurt Rambis!

Maybe it was something to do with the times, Neil Young was "returning to form" at roughly at the same time.

boomer last hurrah for the 80s, definitely.

however, Freedom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New York. Freedom is such a great album.

I only heard "Magic and Loss" in the last year and thought it was pretty good, musically that is, his "singing" is dire

^definitely (xp)...

Lou had two albums in the RS top 100 of the 80s...Blue Mask and New York...new York charted higher.

wow that soul man video is amazing

Dylan had Oh Mercy, and Young had Freedom

(Idk why I am qualifying the Freedom is better than New York three posts after having admitted to never having listened to it...Freedom though is almost as good as some of his best 70s stuff, and no matter what's been said about New York, the hype never quite took that shape--"it's like White Light/White Heat for a new generation...the Reid Bros. have been made completely irrelevant!")

it's like White Light/White Heat for a new generation...

What generation though? The over 70s?

lol our generation obviously

Well that's a poor excuse for a generation in that case!

it's funny, i think the next thing I heard after hearing New York was VU & Nico, and I was pretty convinced that Lou Reed was not the lead singer on stuff like "Sunday Morning" ...

man....i like freedom and all but that's an album where the highlights are so high they trick you into thinking its better than it is...

plus the production on that is not real great IMO, still too 80s for neil

Well "Sunday Morning" was sped up to make his voice seem more feminine, wasn't it? LOL more feminine than Nico, not so hard. (xp)

yeah, but I think even on things like "Run Run Run" I was unsure as to whether that was the same dude singing on New York

xxxxp obv the generation who bought New York in 1989...

this might've been right around the time that I first heard of Lou actually...is this kind of concurrent with the whole Vaclav Havel/Velvet Revolution thingy...

Because he sang in those days instead of recited? (xp)

i like freedom and all but that's an album where the highlights are so high they trick you into thinking its better than it is...
kinda true, though I love Freedom. most of the great songs on it are from the 70s though!

LOL at the Sunday Morning comments...I spent years trying to deduce who was singing? was it Nico? Moe? Couldn't be Lou, could it?

(actually m@tt and tylerw OTm abt Freedom...)

man....i like freedom and all but that's an album where the highlights are so high they trick you into thinking its better than it is...

eh maybe - I was diggin it recently and just struck by some of the willfully UGLY stuff on it, the blasts of noise in No More, for ex., or the perfect, unbelievable bitterness in Rockin' in the Free World. and then oh hey here's a pretty little ballad with Linda Ronstadt. Love ya Neil!

the drums kinda sound like shit, I'll give you that

LOL at the Sunday Morning comments...I spent years trying to deduce who was singing? was it Nico? Moe? Couldn't be Lou, could it?

It was Lou impersonating Doug Yule before he'd even met him

however, Freedom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New York. Freedom is such a great album.

cosign

I was stoked for New York but blown away by Freedom

Freedom's good but I connected more to Ragged Glory

Freedom's at least half of a perfect album...which is a far cry from After the Gold Rush and On the Beach and Rust Never Sleeps, but heads and shoulders above anything else he did in the 80s (& prolley New York too)...

i kept fucking up a lot back then

... careful, you're talking to a "Trans" fan here (xp)

so what guys? we gonna have a Freedom vs. New York poll (throw in Steel Wheels while youre at it)

yeah Trans is next level. Ragged Glory is great, certainly sonically its better than Freedom, but I think the latter actually has the better songs, for the most part. nothing on Ragged Glory is as great as Rockin in the Free World.

Oh Mercy or whatever Dylan album was supposed to good at the time (xp)

oh mercy is good, if not great. i might pick that one over all of these boomer comeback records ...

I love Trans
but Neil wussed out...he should have released the synth/vocorder stuff as a standalone EP and not put on the "regular" rock tunes IMO

eh he should've recorded a full album of the synth/vocoder stuff imho. the regular rock tunes are out of place, agreed on that point

shit maybe he DID record a full album of the synth/vocorder stuff and we'll see it on Archives Vol. 3 when i am in an old folks home

yeah, i think there's a good amount of unreleased techno neil. gonna blow some MINDS. dads everywhere going: "THAT'S how yo do it!"

Freedom sounds a little thin but I'd cut nothing save maybe "No More" for its slightly dopey chimey guitar riff in the chorus.

I wish he'd put out a 20th anniversary version with the Eldorado EP plus whatever other crazy noise he was probably goofing with at the time. Archive 5 maybe?

xps
For boomer comebacks of the late 80's, would be hard to beat Graceland

gonna blow some MINDS. dads everywhere going: "THAT'S how yo do it!"

lol

*knuckle bump*

For boomer comebacks of the late 80's, would be hard to beat Graceland

making a comeback is easy when it involves taking credit for other peoples' work

(not that I'm arguing - Graceland is better than everything mentioned on this thread so far, except for maybe Loaded)

Freedom has that song with the yucky synth chimes that's the only real dog.

Really love "Over and Over" and "Fuckin' Up" from RG.

yeah those are the two high points of RG.

Farmer John is fun too

haha Alfred, you're thinking of "Someday" I think? with the chain gang grunts also? pretty sure that's the one you have in mind...it is not a great song.

btw Shakey I saw what you did to Paul Simon there. But it ain't the proper thread.

80's neil made me go buy every neil album. new york made me want to stop listening to all the lou albums i owned.

i actually like the song "someday" but, yeah, questionable production there. some kinda bluenotes left over thing happening w/ those backup vocals?

yeah, it's also kind of a prelude to Are You Passionate?, in that it's a song Neil doesn't really have the right pipes for

or freedom/ragged glory 1989/1990 neil made me want to.

Boomer comebacks 87-89:
Graceland
Freedom
Oh Mercy
Traveling Wilburys
Permanent Vacation
Steel Wheels

what else?

btw Shakey I saw what you did to Paul Simon there. But it ain't the proper thread.

haha yeah I'm being a little challopsy but there's some grain of truth there (and we've discussed it elsewhere). Certainly Neil, Lou, and Bob didn't draw on the same kind of resources Simon did for Graceland - a LOT of people's stuff went into the making of that record.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmT6udys8Tc

I thought that the drumming was way more boring on Ragged Glory than on Freedom. I swear to God that every song seemed to be at the same tempo on Ragged Glory. "Over and Over" indeed.

ragged glory was awesome.

I still liked it a lot, but liked Freedom more.

can we count Cosmic Thing in that list? (even though they're punk & not boomer lol)

there's also George Harrison's Cloud 9

ugh not a good one

yeah, but it probably introduced him as a solo artist to a lot of people, right?

a lot of people under the age of 40...?

i'm sure that hearing "got my mind set on you" was one of the first george harrison solo joints i heard.

tho i may have heard "this song is just six words long" by weird al first, haha

would Permanent Vacation qualify as a boomer comeback?

Of course technically, Lou Reed, Neil Young, Bob Dylan AND George Harrison aren't really boomers. Neil Young comes closest, I think.

yeah, more like "boomer-approved 60s legend" comebacks

i'm sure that hearing "got my mind set on you" was one of the first george harrison solo joints i heard.

This and the Wilburys were great gateways to all kinds of sixties rock.

ehh not quite...got my mind set on you wz a jam when I wz seven tho

(not that I'm arguing - Graceland is better than everything mentioned on this thread so far, except for maybe Loaded)

― emotionally abusive jowls (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:58 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Holy shit, you have to be kidding me.

not at all, Graceland is impeccable work

When the Touch of Grey video came out it was actually the first Dead song I ever heard and I was totally shocked - I thought that they would have sounded like Black Sabbath based on all the skull images and the band's name.

heh me too. i'm guessing this was a pretty common reaction.

(by kids)

I think I was 12 when it came out so yeah

this thread has been all about reminiscing about MTV in the late 80s when we were all wee ones.... :D

(today at least)

let's get back on topic
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Wq91zQyc2yg/SI3FUMCKaMI/AAAAAAAAAs0/vUAjfZDLnAI/s400/steve+howe+04.jpg

That guy didnt play on Graceland.

he's better than Creedence though.

Finding out that George Harrison was in the Beatles was huge for me.

That guy didnt play on Graceland.

he did play left field for the Dodgers tho

I just thought of him as some Kenny Loggins-style beardo.

that's awesome

shakey mo you rate graceland as a better album than american beauty

its songs better than the songs on american beauty

just making sure I read you right before I say "wtf"

i sense a poll coming on

I have never willfully given much thought to American Beauty (see post way up there re: my Dead exposure) whereas I listen to Graceland all the time and have pretty much ever since it came out so yes

basically if it contains Bob and Phil's shitty ass singing, I am turning it off

like you know how you can't handle Fogerty YELLING AT YOU? well I can't handle the Dead's I AM WHEEZING OFF KEY AT YOU

yeah I feel you, that held me off the dead for many years (after a v. young pothead "I'm supposed to like these guys" interest in them phase) - but yeah, the songs on American Beauty just tower over anything on Graceland in my opinion

i like jerry's voice and i'm not really a dead fan

he sounds sad and exhausted and makes me blue

hey its rough being a fat junkie

be nice

as the old saying goes, do not speak ill of The Dead
http://ddenham.tripod.com/heaven.gif

lol maybe! i don't know too many fat junkies. to maintain that weight while being that high must've required some hard-core calorie cramming

shakey mo you rate graceland as a better album than american beauty

^he also rates it higher than fragile, close to the edge, funhouse, every vu album, and every other album that has been mentioned on this thread. I'll have some of what he's been smoking.

haha okay I don't rate it higher than EVERY Velvets album (forgot they had all been mentioned). Funhouse, eh its good and groundbreaking and scary and everything but I def. listen to Graceland more.

also I am almost out of what I have been smoking, sorry

basically if it contains Bob and Phil's shitty ass singing, I am turning it off

― emotionally abusive jowls (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:04 PM (47 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Phil only sang one song his whole career!

sings plenty of backup tho, right?

Hold the presses. Phil sang more than one song.

"Pride of Cucamonga" is a fantastic tune.

According to Rock Scully's account,Jerry was living off of heroin and Skittles or something.

Yeah, man. Phil sings "Unbroken Chain" and some other things besides "Box."
He really has a hard time with it live, though. Didn't know he sang the lead on Box of Rain for a while, still sort of hard to believe.

Not long after 'Mars Hotel' Lesh's voice fell apart. He didn't sing for, like, six years something. He then underwent some surgery and started singing live again in the 80s, I believe.

when i saw the Dead in the 90s, Phil sang that Robbie Robertson song "Broken Arrow" which I think Rod Stewart had a hit with? Anyway, it was ok.

bob weir's live version of "good lovin" where he was wearing pedophile eyeglasses and a safari shirt and shorts on some live at winterland thing i saw on PBS was the most embarrassing live performance i have ever seen.

Bob would be in line for many of those, actually. The "Bobby Touch", so to speak.

To tell you the truth, Phil's vocal on the studio take of "Box" isnt exactly Sinatra either.

yeah but it has so much presence & feeling

I mean ppl reppin for Lou for God's sake Reed aren't really in a position to call out ppl for their singin'

just sayin'

bob weir's live version of "good lovin" where he was wearing pedophile eyeglasses and a safari shirt and shorts on some live at winterland thing i saw on PBS was the most embarrassing live performance i have ever seen.

but yeah some of the bob weir solo stuff I've heard curls my fucking toes. gimme a junkie over a cokehead any day of the week, thanks

yeah but it has so much presence & feeling

^agreed, it's imperfection works in its favor, definitely.

Lou's a great vocalist (when he was actually trying/had a voice, ie pre-1982 or so)

yes but he is a terrible singer - once you like the dead, jerry's a great vocalist, too, "vocalist" really only means "I buy into some/all of his schtick & have decided I like him" imo

I'm sorry, but I have to cut Phil all kinds of slack for "Box of Rain" since he wrote it during the time he was visiting his father who was dying of cancer. It resonates with me because I was doing the same thing for six months before I lost my father to cancer last July (not writing a song just visiting my dying father in the hospital). Now, all kinds of shit strikes me emotionally that I would have been able to laugh at or shrug off before my father passed away, and "Box of Rain" is one of those things.

bob weir's live version of "good lovin" where he was wearing pedophile eyeglasses and a safari shirt and shorts on some live at winterland thing i saw on PBS was the most embarrassing live performance i have ever seen.

u CANNOT knock bob's style! tempted to SB

http://www.stevehowe.com/images/news/news-TrioTravelling.jpg
thought everyone should know that Steve Howe has a new album out. heard there's a stellar version of "(San Francisco) Giants Under the Sun".

just heard loaded for the first time and WOW ive never heard the velvets like this before

'i found a reason' is pretty much a grateful dead song, so i tip my lol to the OP

classic thread — here's this thing I just put together:
https://aquariumdrunkard.com/2020/08/10/unearthed-vol-11-unloaded/

Despite all the amputations,

lol

stoked to put this on right now, thanks for sharing

moe singing on "rock & roll" !!!

haha, yeah i love that version

"lonesome cowboy bill" intro:

"Oh yeah I wrote it, buuueeeegggghhhhhhhhhhh ... it's pretty new."

actually Jim Carroll blabbing into the tape there (from the max's LP)

oh that's right !

I heard both american beauty and workingman’s deadso many damn times growing up that for a long time afterwards I just couldn’t really *hear* them, iykwim. WD has thawed for me but I just never have any desire to listen to AB, the well worn grooves are too deep or something

loaded was the last VU album I got and yeah the other three had such distinct sonic/aesthetic identities that it was kind of a bummer that the fourth one was just a plain ol 1970 laid back rock record but it still jams, like it better these days but I’m pretty sure “who loves the sun” can take a hike

I think AB is definitely the better record but nothing on loaded makes my skin crawl like “candy man”

weird comparison, even if i like both albums.

there's nothing as potent as "box of rain" on loaded, but if we're picking which one we prefer, i'd probably go with loaded. hard choice though.

I've gotten to know American Beauty better since I opted for Loaded on the strength of three songs. There are more songs on American Beauty that I like...but it'd still be impossible to opt for it over those three songs (the two most obvious + "Oh! Sweet Nuthin'").