ILM July Madness: FINAL FOUR ---------- (TAKE TWO, vote again if you voted in that other one, sorry)

argh, not my night:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1471/bracketfinalfour.jpg

other thread went like this iirc:

Stones vs. Beatles = easiest single decision so far...Beatles

VU vs. Prince = as I said before *feel free to incorporate solo albums* - doing so leaves you with 10-15 A++ classic VU albums whereas Prince has like 9 maybe. also: remember the stuff Prince said about gay people recently. you are also allowed to take that into your decision making process.

― iatee, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:07 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

OTOH you are not allowed to incorporate anything lou reed has ever said, ever

― iatee, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:12 PM (57 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Stones, Velvets

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:15 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Beatles, Prince obv

― The Reverend, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:15 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I honestly don't care that Prince hasn't made a spectacular album in over 20 years. It's been even longer than that for either Reed or Cale. As for Beatles vs. Stones... Beatles easy.

― Johnny Fever, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:16 PM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Beatles, Velvet Underground

― Bee OK, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:16 PM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

two of my favorite artists vs two i barely give a shit about

― The Reverend, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:16 PM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wrong way up and songs for drella are 20 and 21 years old

― iatee, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:17 PM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

xp Bitter much?

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:17 PM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

fragments of a rainy season is 18!

― iatee, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:19 PM (50 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

uh, it's not as if just started not caring about vu after they beat stevie

― The Reverend, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:19 PM (50 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

and they beat him so hard

― iatee, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:19 PM (50 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Sun Ra, Oum Kalthoum

― _Rudipherous_, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:20 PM (49 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

actually I think the 3 VU results were the 3 biggest margins so far

― iatee, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:21 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Honestly I am bit surprised by the outpouring of VU love in these polls.

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:21 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Songs for Drella = zzzzz. I never even bothered listening to Wrong Way Up.

I actually kind of like Lou Reed's sporadic run from 1989-2000, but I wouldn't call any of them spectacular. Cale's been asleep since Music for a New Society.

― Johnny Fever, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:22 PM (47 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wrong way up is 100% classic imo

― iatee, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:24 PM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Anyway, like I said before, I could put all the VU songs I like on a single cd. They were capable of greatness, but just as easily capable of non-greatness. (This is true for Prince as well, but at least he released entire albums I love.)

― Johnny Fever, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:25 PM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i have a feeling that the Velvet Underground might win this whole thing.

― Bee OK, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:25 PM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I certainly don't plan to vote for them over the Stones.

― chuck entertainment cheese (crüt), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:27 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wait no, they're up against prince. still, I think I might have to give prince the edge.

― chuck entertainment cheese (crüt), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:28 PM (41 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if it came down to stones vs vu i think i would abstain just because i wouldn't really care at that point

― The Reverend, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:29 PM (40 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

beatles & prince because I'm feelin kinda hongro today

― chuck entertainment cheese (crüt), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:29 PM (39 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Beatles, Prince

this was very easy

― ASBO slice (J0rdan S.), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:30 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This should've been Fleetwood Mac, The Cure, Abba, and Black Sabbath.

― grab you by the boo-boo and don't let go (kkvgz), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:32 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

stones really don't have a shot, do they? I mean I like them fine but are they really final four material? if steely dan or bob dylan were in west I don't think the stones would be here.

― iatee, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:34 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

should've been James Brown, James Brown, James Brown, CCR

― chuck entertainment cheese (crüt), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:34 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I would vote for the Stones over Steely Dan or Dylan in a heartbeat

― chuck entertainment cheese (crüt), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:35 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Out of those three, I'd take Dylan without blinking.

― Johnny Fever, Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:36 PM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Beatles, Velvets

― Grisly Addams (WmC), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:37 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

actually I think the 3 VU results were the 3 biggest margins so far

― iatee, Thursday, July 22, 2010 10:21 PM (9 minutes ago)

First Round: Biggest winners as measured by margin of victory
1. (tie) Beatles over Madonna
1. (tie) VU over Radiohead
3. Kate Bush over Hall & Oates

First round: biggest winners as measured by percentage of votes
1. Beatles over Madonna
2. VU over Radiohead
3. Prince over Black Sabbath

Second round: biggest winners, no matter how you measure it
1. VU over PE
2. Eno over Smiths
3. Can over Biggie

Third round: biggest winners
1. VU over Stevie
2. Beatles over Dylan
3. Stones over Can

― Dodo Lurker (Slim and Slam), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:37 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Beatles and Prince for me, thanks.

― Dodo Lurker (Slim and Slam), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:38 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Beatles, Velvet Underground

otm

BVU

if VU knocks off Prince too, my tie might get caught in the ceiling fan

"The Cross" >>> Velvet Underground

i would not disagree with that statement.

i don't like this poll

beatles, prince

Beatles, Prince

final four prediction: beatles, stones, velvets, prince

― symsymsym, Saturday, July 17, 2010 12:19 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

nb i just got that from the acts that received the most votes in the first round

― symsymsym, Saturday, July 17, 2010 12:20 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark

ha

beatles, prince

otoh 2nd round eno and can got more than the stones and prince

xp

beatles, prince

I like the beatles the most of any of these four (if big had made it this far it would be a tough choice) but I don't really want them to win

if VU beats prince you are all fucking dead to me

hey you 101 people who voted for the velvets:

http://rlv.zcache.com/remember_to_vote_sticker-p217514381118634774qjcl_400.jpg

dear VU voters, as far as i am concerned you are all felons and your votes do not count at this point

again, a reminder:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/nov/20/prince-gay-marriage-opinion

"God came to earth and saw people sticking it wherever and doing it with whatever, and he just cleared it all out," Prince told the New Yorker's Clare Hoffman. "He was, like, 'Enough.'"

I like this vision

i will not lower myself to posting the lyrics to Lou Reed's "I Wanna Be Black" because I want this to be a clean campaign for the person who obv deserves to win

'I wanna be black' is an empowering civil rights song iirc

but I can't remember clearly since I don't have the lyrics at hand

i'm boycotting this poll btw

BEATLESPRINCE

Stones, Prince

Stones, Prince, FOADIUD

At least it's not the final stage, but Beatles vs. Stones is like the more boring rock discussion topic ever.

blame ilm

I dunno man I'm pretty sure some shit about Aminal Collection wd win that award

It's not just me. This poll is getting more boring with each sucessive round. :-(

would vote velvets/prince but in the end beatles/prince

At least it's not the final stage, but Beatles vs. Stones is like the more boring rock discussion topic ever.

― bendy, Friday, July 23, 2010 8:35 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

8080

Beatles, Prince.

This poll is getting more boring with each sucessive round.

No surprise there as the outliers are eliminated and canon emerges.

No, my point is that "the canon" is so damn boring.

very interesting point

man i am sad i did not look at this on the days i could have voted for eno and can

So polling the majority results in less surprising and distinctive results than asking individuals for their personal favorites.

I don't think your point contradicts my point. xxxp

I just wonder at what point ILX tipped over into such a boring traditionalist canon. That's not a list that would be out of place in Mojo. There was a point in ILX's early history that the voted top two artists in "best of all time" lists were My Bloody Valentine and Britney Spears. I'm not saying that's a *better* canon than Beatles, Stones, Prince, Velvets, but it's certainly more interesting.

Though I suppose, looking at the artists listed in the opening rounds, they were already fairly canonically boring.

should've been James Brown, James Brown, James Brown, CCR James Brown

― chuck entertainment cheese (crüt), Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:34 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

kate: this is a silly little game I made, nothing more. if you don't like the rules of the game, you can make your own game. I picked canonically boring artists on purpose because I understood that in polls of large numbers of people, things that large numbers of people agree on tend to win. I'm not sure how the mechanics of this process still seem to be confusing for so many people.

if you are surprised/bothered that a poll of this many people results in the most consensus over the beatles and the velvet underground, I dunno what to tell you. I am quite sure that 153 people didn't vote in that old school ilm poll. didn't manic street preachers place 3rd or something?

Preachers are better than the Beatles no lie

Well, congratulations on ending up on yet another discourse that boils down to discussing the artistic merit of the Beatles vs. the Rolling Stones. That's so exciting, it's NEVER been done before, so fresh and new, never seen that kind of thing done before on a messageboard.

Dude, don't be nasty.

Your sarcasm sucks.

Well, that's *me* told.

::rolls eyes::

Like, I too think that the Beatles and the Stones seems a little pedestrian for ilx, but that's the shakes.

Well, congratulations on ending up on yet another discourse that boils down to discussing the artistic merit of the Beatles vs. the Rolling Stones masonic boom trying to derail a thread. That's so exciting, it's NEVER been done before, so fresh and new, never seen that kind of thing done before on a messageboard.

OK, if you want to make this personal when I was just discussing the topic, that's your own dick move to pull, go right ahead. Makes you the asshole here, not me.

IMO, the poll would have been about 2x more interesting if you'd left the Beatles & Stones off it, so people would have been forced not to make the the most obvious canonical choices.

You weren't discussing. You were being really rude.

right, then they'd pick the 3rd and 4th most canonical choices. you're complaining that my *poll of the canon* ended up being too canonical. okay, well, uh...

I'd question why lots of ILMers seem so into flogging this particular canon over and over again but it's chacun à son goût innit?

Like go out and make your own corner of the board more bright and shiny and inneresting.

isn't the canon boring BECAUSE it's the canon though? the more popular / highly regarded something is, the more exposure people have to it which makes it seem more commonplace and less exciting

as music nerds we've all gotten tired of talking about the beatles at this point but in a vacuum their music certainly isn't boring or uninteresting, at least relative to their peers if not to pop music in general

In *what* way was I being more rude than the usual level of discourse on ILM, KKVGZ?

If you have a problem with me, then perhaps you should take it up via email because right now you are the person derailing this thread by attempting to police my "politeness" behaviour instead of keeping it on topic.

x-post in whose world is this "the canon"? <- this is the kind of question I'm trying to get at, but I guess it's a pointless question. Like NV says.

It's just quite interesting (to me, at least) why the canon on ILX has drifted so far to the Mojo readership, when - on other boards I post on, a "canonical" poll would be, like "Aphex Twin vs Autechre" or "Daft Punk vs Kraftwerk" - obviously, those are subgenres, because those happen to be electronic music forums of one stripe or another. What the topic of the forum is obviously will affect *who* the canon is considered to be, but how did ILX become so Trad Rock when it certainly never was in the past?

Honestly, Beatles & VU, because I came to Prince's albums (rather than just the radio hits) much later than the Velvets so he didn't blow my mind in the same way, and I don't find any of his records as flawless as VU & Nico. But it still pains me to vote for the band that defeated Public Enemy AND Stevie, so I kind of hope they lose anyway. If they win by one vote, I will feel very guilty.

I can't believe we're still arguing about the canon though. It is what it is.

I would, however, totally endorse alternative contests which focussed on electronic music or hip hop or soul.

actual lols at iatee of all people moaning about someone else being rude

that's helpful, lex

I can't believe we're still arguing about the canon though. It is what it is.

This is when I feel like Lex banging his head against the wall. WHOSE canon is this? How did it get this way? Who the heck declared *this* canon to be THE canon? And why wasn't I consulted on it? ;-)

ha ha x-post with Lex.

What would be the best 4/5 piece band made out of the various members of VU, the Beatles and the Stones?

^ going deep mojo here

I can't believe we're still arguing about the canon though. It is what it is.

It is what people want it to be more like.

I feel a bit (WARNING: WILD GENERALISATION/STRAWMANNING IMMINENT) that a bunch of these bands aren't the thing that a lot of the voters listen to mostly in the present, but there is a dull "Realism" or whatever that says you should acknowledge their greatness or importance and the Canon Must Be Upheld. Which probably wasn't the spirit of early ILM, boring as I find a lot of their canon too. As to why, well the answer is obviously earnest music discussion board attracts earnest music fans over time, and a lot of the peeps who are into discussion/argument are gonna be pretty into keeping it trad, Dad.

Paul + Moe rhythm section would make the universe duck into the nearest singularity.

that's helpful, lex

unless you're also going to retroactively tut-tut at iatee for constantly sniping at me and others all over the place stfu

k8 bang otm about "whose" canon. i remember when ilm used to be SCEPTICAL about shit like this, not shrug and go "it is what it is"

it's not like this tournament thingy started out with a diverse field and got narrowed down to trad-rock, even the rap picks at the start, except maybe biggie, were the most rock-crit friendly ones

everybody who claims the right to be a dick because dick-being precedent has been set -- fuck you, you just wanted any excuse to be a dick.

still can't believe the Rolling Stones got this far

I think NV has a very good point - I reckon there comes a point where this "canon" becomes just completely self reinforcing.

I mean, the ONLY deviation which actually shows a spark of ILM-ness (as in the actual personalities and tastes of the ILM audience) is that Prince made it through instead of, like, Dylan or someone.

everybody who claims the right to be a dick because dick-being precedent has been set -- fuck you, you just wanted any excuse to be a dick.

if someone is regularly and consistently a dick to me i'm not going to just ignore it, and fuck you for conveniently seeing just one side of this

btw i'm in total favour of k8 or whoever derailing this, because ANY kind of derailment is an improvement on the boring, boring reinforcement of the canon yet again

maybe people would actually start posting things of substance rather than "beatles...stones...dribble"

also i think a lot of music fans get into music via a classic rock phase in their teens, since the music industry been very successful at remarketing the 'canon' rock bands to younger generations. so by the time that they develop a wider taste and are more discerning, those bands retain their nostalgic value.

i don't know if this is actually true of the wider world but it's certainly what happened to me and pretty much every friend i have who is into music beyond modern pop.

WHOSE canon is this?

it belongs to the 153 people who voted last time. how is this complicated?

also i think a lot of music fans get into music via a classic rock phase in their teens, since the music industry been very successful at remarketing the 'canon' rock bands to younger generations.

yeah, i place a huge amount of the blame on the music media for reinforcing it through super-lame "best albums ever" lists - even i had a phase of trying to get into all these canonical artists i was told i "should" like. (90% of them were fucking awful, and couldn't hold a candle to the r&b and uk garage of the early 00s that was actually all around me at the time)

lex I dunno why you decided to play this game to begin with and to participate in all the threads - were you just trying to earn the right to complain at the end? were you expecting taylor swift to appear as a surprise wildcard guest in the final four?

also i think a lot of music fans get into music via a classic rock phase in their teens, since the music industry been very successful at remarketing the 'canon' rock bands to younger generations. so by the time that they develop a wider taste and are more discerning, those bands retain their nostalgic value.

i don't know if this is actually true of the wider world but it's certainly what happened to me and pretty much every friend i have who is into music beyond modern pop.

WTF at this. I mean, seriously. No, this is 1) just your experience, only one particular experience 2) you are describing a process which ALREADY HAS as its stated goal getting people to listen to Classic Rock (so how on earth would it produce any other result? 3) how on earth can you dismiss LISTENING TO MODERN POP as a form of music fandom in itself?

I know people who started listening to "stuff on the radio" and managed to branch out to serious pop fans, serious electronic music fans, serious hip-hop fans - what is this weird one-way passage pointing only towards Classic Rock?

And no, iatee, it DOESN'T belong to the "153 people who voted" unless you gave them to ability to pick the artists they were going to be voting on to start with. And you didn't.

I only joined in to try and stop the Beatles from winning tbh

right, because this is a little game I made up and and not THE OFFICIAL AND LEGAL CREATION OF THE ILM CANON xp

And no, iatee, it DOESN'T belong to the "153 people who voted" unless you gave them to ability to pick the artists they were going to be voting on to start with. And you didn't.

Make your own damn poll. Anyone can start it thread; ILM is cool that way.

It's like that much discussed recent poll that declared The Prodigy were "VOTED THE MOST INFLUENTIAL ELECTRONIC MUSIC ACT OF ALL TIME!!!!" until you look at the fine print that it was sponsored by a music festival The Prodigy were playing at, and that people were only voting on a short list - selected by said music festival (and presumably had played their festival at somet point.)

scandal!!!

what i meant by that last line was people who seek out music as opposed to letting it come to them, i don't mean to dismiss modern pop at all! sorry

essentially i have this idea of a distinction between a 'music fan' and a 'casual listener' in my head and that's probably all bullshit especially these days with the accessibility of music

it's funny that the EOY polls, in which ~100 people also vote (and where the voting takes a bit more thought than just clicking in a poll), actually reflect the extent to which ilm DOESN'T subscribe to canon - i think of that as the "true" ilm

xpost

Think a lot of people on here would think that is a bullshit distinction really. I think when you think "music fan" it's a particular type of fan you're thinking of, and not the only type of music fan at all.

Still contemplating who I shd rig a poll for so they have to win.

that sounds reasonable to me! please leave the thread now and interact with the "true" ilm instead. xp

tbf David Bowie gave me 100 "Bowie Bonds" to vote for him in these polls.

Yeah, if you define "Serious Music Fan" as people who have "gone beyond modern pop" to reach boring classic rock canon, then you have a pretty self-defining cachement to start with.

Anyway, leave you guys to your "fun little game" - it's Friday afternoon and I'm bored so I was looking for a fun game myself.

Maybe I should go and start a "Madonna vs. Aphex Twin: Death Match Poll" and watch mine own head explode instead.

Please do.

No, I'm just gonna carry on posting on this thread with the sole purpose of irritating you, EZ.

it's funny that the EOY polls, in which ~100 people also vote (and where the voting takes a bit more thought than just clicking in a poll), actually reflect the extent to which ilm DOESN'T subscribe to canon - i think of that as the "true" ilm

I wonder how different it would actually be if the classic Beatles, Stones, Velvets, Prince, etc. albums were coming out currently.

it's not like there was any interesting discussion or even a single interesting post in this thread before k8 "derailed" it by raising some relevant critical points to any discussion of the canon

Make K8's Head Explode: Madonna vs. Aphex Twin

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lslBt7vmpoI/SbaD8UBVXYI/AAAAAAAADf0/rbyhW69OGwM/s320/head+explodes.jpg

I don't consider the Beatles or Velvet Underground to be among my favorite bands/artists, but I like them more than most bands in this tournament. Sorry for contributing to boring results.

are madonna and aphex twin really your examples of music that isn't discussed enough here? I almost included aphex twin btw.

No, they're my examples of mine own personal canon. And also examples of people I consider so OBVIOUSLY canonical it's indisputable, yet they are seldom included on this Mojo Classic Rock Crit canon.

I think your problem is that you care what is included in the Mojo Classic Rock Crit canon

Yeah, no call to be thinking about music on the music board.

lol @ all this

lighten the fuck up, it's a friday on the internet

Yeah, no call to be discussing anything on a message board.

you'd think mojo magazine was about to shut the server down or something. you'll never take us alive!!!

people complaining about how early ILM would never have voted for these boring canonical artists should check out what early ILM had to say about beloved icons like Stevie fucking Wonder for instance. The old Stevie Wonder c/d thread is mostly people hating on him for 80s ballads fyi

xp

I think people are just saying "Yah boo this list is boring". That's all I'm saying. It's an opinion, man. I love the Stones but I'm kinda embarrassed for them in this farts' parade.

xp
^^^that is sad

all-time lists/polls like this always have boring/predictable results. The fun part is people getting upset about it.

this is a knockout tournament that w/ entries that were arbitrarily chosen and w/ random seeding - this is considerably less scientific than even a normal ilx EOY poll - which is already not particularly scientific.

it is, like I said, a game and nothing more. anyone who's taking it as anything more must not have been paying much attention. when the beatles (vu? prince?) win they do not win any money / fame / importance to society. they just get the title "winner of iatee's poll" (if the stones win I'm starting this over from scratch)

I'm glad a decent amount of people decided it was worth their while to participate, but there's no deeper meaning behind the numbers beyond: "lol lots of people like the beatles huh."

iatee, I think these polls have been frustrating from the beginning, but still pretty fun.

I don't know what's so hard to understand about the canon. In any artform there's a canon consisting of artists who are (a) very good, (b) historically significant and (c) popular, in retrospect even if not at the time. A contest like this only works with artists that most people will have some familiarity with so any niche inclusions would be knocked out in the first round (as many were). A lot of the personal favourites that I'd like to have seen in the first round would never have got past it anyway. Sure, the thought of weighing up the Beatles vs the Stones doesn't make my heart beat any faster but iatee's remit is clearly, and unapologetically, the consensus greats. You can disagree with the consensus - and indeed should - but you can't pretend there isn't one.

Another enduring puzzle: why Lex proudly dismisses 90% of the canon and is still surprised when most people don't agree with him.

ffs we all know critical problems with canon etc yawn. what I can see is that iatee's put a bit of effort into keeping us entertained & he gets a load of shit for it. nice one.

Because the canon is 90% white males making rock music as chosen by white males that like rock music.

Even this argument is becoming as boring as the "canon" is but that's because no one ever seems to hear it.

x-post

let's review some of ILM's halcyon days when everybody hated the Beatles and the Stones and loved Stevie Wonder and had loads of interesting things to say about Prince shall we

Stevie wonder- Dud or Really bad?
Beatles: Classic or Dud?
Search and Destroy: Prince
Rolling Stones: Classic or Dud

Kate's nonsense = revisionism

I just wonder at what point ILX tipped over into such a boring traditionalist canon

From the beginning? The same group of people can think Loveless is the best album of the 90s and also think The Beatles and The Rolling Stones are among the best groups ever and there is a certain amount of self-mythology going on here to say that ILM never fell into this bucket; the main reason why these artists never came up isn't because the old posters didn't like them; it's because the old posters by and large took them as read and moved on to talking about more "obscure" acts.

I think redoing this poll using the top 32 artists from either of the 2000s polls would set parameters more in line with what you want to see, but even then it's going to be a lot of traditional or traditional-leaning rock bands against a bunch of other traditional or traditional-leaning rock bands; this board has always been pretty parochial about what gets celebrated and what doesn't and stepping too far outside of your box or following your own meandering artistic vision doesn't gain you as many points as consistently doing the same type of thing over and over again.

There was a point in ILX's early history that the voted top two artists in "best of all time" lists were My Bloody Valentine and Britney Spears. I'm not saying that's a *better* canon than Beatles, Stones, Prince, Velvets, but it's certainly more interesting.

your mistake is thinking that My Bloody Valentine are more interesting than anyone

anyway Dan OTM

Because the canon is 90% white males making rock music as chosen by white males that like rock music.

in other news sky is blue

It's not revisionism if you take those threads AS ONLY PART OF a larger percentage of ILM that discussed the pop of the day. It's not that those artists didn't get discussed, but there wasn't this boring consensus that they were somehow *the* pinnacle of musical achievement.

It's not that people thought MBV was the best album of the 90s - it was that there were an equal amount of people willing to seriously consider the fact that Britney had contribued some of the iconical music of the landscape.

I think it's okay to continue moaning about the Canon as long as people are like "yay the Canon". Both of those positions being verrrrrrrrry old doesn't make them get resolved or go away apparently.

I think it's okay to continue moaning about the Canon as long as people are like "yay the Canon"

exactly

but there wasn't this boring consensus that they were somehow *the* pinnacle of musical achievement.

that is not really the conclusion to draw from these poll threads fwiw, as iatee has consistently pointed out

I'm sorry that our boring board is now implying that the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Velvet Underground, and Prince contributed more iconical music to the landscape than Britney Spears.

It's not that people thought MBV was the best album of the 90s - it was that there were an equal amount of people willing to seriously consider the fact that Britney had contribued some of the iconical music of the landscape.

Well then to be more accurate, the split you're talking about happened when ILM stopped being the messageboard for Freaky Trigger and therefore lost a manifesto behind its discussion, and even within that manifesto it wasn't particularly cool to be girl with anger issues or a black person interested in something besides sex, drugs or money.

It's not that people thought MBV was the best album of the 90s - it was that there were an equal amount of people willing to seriously consider the fact that Britney had contribued some of the iconical music of the landscape.

um have you even looked at the 90s and 00s albums poll threads? results are pretty diverse and Britney is well represented

(And actually at least 50% of the time, the sky *isn't* blue, it's actually black or orangey-purple if you in a city - but hey, why let that get in the way of a kneejerk dismissal?)

Kate, why would you think that a music discussion forum with a broad remit wouldn't contain a lot of people who like the Beatles or the Velvets or Prince? It's not like Lex is on the door. "You prefer the Beatles to Aaliyah? Fuck you, you're not coming in." Considering we're reaching back beyond the 90s and 00s here, I'd be interested who you'd put in alternative canon. (Not a snarky challenge, an honest question)

NV, is anyone here really "yay the canon"?

like I don't think the popists and anti-rockists have vacated this board AT ALL and if you do I dunno which threads you're reading

(And actually at least 50% of the time, the sky *isn't* blue, it's actually black or orangey-purple if you in a city - but hey, why let that get in the way of a kneejerk dismissal?)

owned

It's not like Lex is on the door. "You prefer the Beatles to Aaliyah? Fuck you, you're not coming in."

I endorse this policy. No trainers either.

*cries*

*mourns death of white male rock canon*

when did this large group of people suddenly start having opinions representative of the general population? it's shocking.

i really don't see how this series of obvious jokey polls is evidence of ilm becoming more canon-y or mojo-y. the rest of its year-end and decade-end polls, and all the rest of the threads on ilm's New Answers don't bear that out at all. it is what it basically always has been.

I'd have thought huge groups of people with diverse interests would vote unequivocally for the forefathers of shoegaze tbh

I'm very "yay the canon" but I'm sure someone hectoring about Britney Spears might sway me yet

try ilxor.com, they might convince u

the entire subtext of these threads is "yay the canon" - and specifically, yay the white male rock-loving canon.

basically i'm gonna slag off the primacy of that canon whenever i get the chance, cuz all it does is exclude and sideline and try to erase the canons of other demographics.

we'll shame them into not liking their stones albums yet

a good chunk of the white male rock-loving canon hates Prince IME.

fight on, brave warrior

basically i'm gonna slag off the primacy of that canon whenever i get the chance, cuz all it does is exclude and sideline and try to erase the canons of other demographics.

HUZZAH MY LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!

"all it does" huh

cuz all it does is exclude and sideline and try to erase the canons of other demographics.

that isn't really ALL it does but have fun with tilting at yr windmills

also I like the fact that you guys are conveniently overlooking the very real possibility that Prince is going to win this (omg a non-white, non-rock artist, too bad he has a penis...)

There is no fucking way Prince is going to win this, regardless of how many sockpuppet accounts I create.

most of the women got knocked out early on, but I don't remember lex complaining about Biggie beating ABBA or Stevie beating the Mac

interestingly, Prince's biggest moment was when he played a rock artist with a white mom

personally, when I voted for the Beatles, I was actually thinking "fuck you, bounce music"

white male rock fans mocking and refusing to engage with the idea that their narrow canon might not be the only one people care about is really unsurprising, i have to say

There is no fucking way Prince is going to win this, regardless of how many sockpuppet accounts I create.

I dunno, these matchups have produced some unexpected results so far, and there are eveidently PLENTY of people who have a visceral hatred of both the Beatles and the Velvets

xp

I've had many deep thoughts about Lady Gaga since being introduced to her music on ILM.

But right now I'm thinking about Sterling Morrison and Mick Taylor jamming with Ringo Starr and Wendy and Lisa. no vocals yet.

white male rock fans mocking and refusing to engage with the idea that their narrow canon might not be the only one people care about is really unsurprising, i have to say

lex deliberately misunderstanding other people's tastes and putting words in their mouth also really unsurprising, I have to say

refusing to engage with the idea that their narrow canon might not be the only one people care about

NOBODY HAS REFUSED TO ENGAGE WITH THIS IDEA

we are mocking you for thinking that people voting for the beatles means they only care about some narrow white male rock canon.

and be "we" I mean "I"

for example NO ONE has said that ALL PEOPLE MUST CARE ABOUT THE WHITE MALE ROCK CANON but whatever dude, keep burning that strawman

i wouldn't dream of slagging off any "demographic"s canon, whatever power dynamics made it up -- and there is always some. they're all made by a mix of benign consensus and enforcement.

this is really far from "my" canon anyway, lex

although fwiw I guess I should confess that I hate all women and minorities and only listen to music made by fat white guys with guitars and don't understand how anyone could listen to anything else. yup, YA GOT ME

NOBODY HAS REFUSED TO ENGAGE WITH THIS IDEA

don't see much evidence of you engaging w/it

lol

lex is right 100% of my ILM posts are me reppin for dat white male rock canon and not caring about any other genre

question: how is the food canon poll gonna turn into a race/gender thing? cause inevitably it is, but I'm curious what angle they're gonna take.

but seriously my two all-time favorite personal canonical artists (the Beach Boys and P-Funk) were knocked out IN THE FIRST ROUND

question: how is the food canon poll gonna turn into a race/gender thing? cause inevitably it is, but I'm curious what angle they're gonna take.

white people eat like this

white people use ronaldinho bottle openers

don't see much evidence of you engaging w/it

are you completely oblivious to how the original 64 were selected? it's like you aren't even paying attention

xp any more dismissal of my beloved meat pies and it's ON, iatee.

cuz all it does is exclude and sideline and try to erase the canons of other demographics.

By its nature, there's only going to be one central canon in any artform, with other more specialist ones feeding into it to some extent. It makes no sense to say that the mere existence of a canon excludes other tastes. Seems to me that you either want (a) no canon at all, which is impossible, or (b) a canon decided by you personally.

"One central canon" = where do they store this? Can you go see it?

I can't tell you but it's pretty cool. You can sit on it and pretend it's a big white heterosexual penis.

Still lolling at the "please show evidence that you're engaging with the idea that some people like other genres of music"

the canon's hidden in a special compartment underneath the Lincoln Memorial iirc

there's only going to be one central canon in any artform

this isn't a central canon! unless you think that white male rock-lovers are the centre of the world.

no canons would be nice.

Well I thought Dorian was saying it was one thing that really exists and that seems like a tremendous streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch.

Counter-example from unrelated bollocks. Ask Joe Public if Charles Dickens is a canonical writer and I reckon he wd say "yes sure", but ask F.R. Leavis or one of his posse - who are pretty central to laying down Canon Law in English Lit circles, and he would say "get tae fuck" only nicer probably.

So I'm not sure we really have a One Canon to Rule Them All situation going on at any time.

but seriously, let me engage with you lex:

refusing to engage with the idea that their narrow canon might not be the only one people care about is

the "white male rock canon" is not "my canon." I am a fan of rock music but I am also a fan of other kinds of music. I voted for the Beatles & Stones not for some white male rockist good old boy "now that there's REAL music" reasons but because both bands wrote & recorded a lot of tunes that I enjoy quite a bit, moreso than the artists they were up against. It is -- get this -- COMPLETELY OK with me if people have different opinions!!! Have I convinced you that I am willing to engage with this idea?

lex, how can there be "no canons"? even if the world were free of any power dynamics, and everyone listened to everything, wouldn't there be a consensus around some things?

The only way for there to be no canon is for music to not exist or for people to have no opinions on it.

no canons would be nice.

good luck with that

going further, look it's not like the non-rock non-white non-male music out there is any less "a record of barbarism". i mean nobody gets off the hook.

mariah carey's a good example musically. in terms of iconic status, longevity, output, popularity, influence, whatever the criteria you're using to justify the white male rock canon acts, she fulfils, and she's seen as canon by a pretty huge number of music listeners - the idea that she's part of a "specialist" canon is insane. yet i'm pretty sure iatee never even considered putting her in here, and she's rarely seen as canon by this demographic.

the real problem here is white male non-music

"Consensus" is a shaky concept tho, unless you're doing a lot of opinion polls. I guess sales would count but a sales canon would be pretty different to this one I think? So if not sales then the consensus is based on dudes banging on about stuff in the media? I think that's not a very representative or consensual sample group compared to people in general.

Imagine all no canons, polling i, l, x...
Ooo-oo-ooo-oooo!

hey lex are you anti-canon or do just want more music you like in the canon?

Lex dude, you could start a poll.

ha but Noodle you've already pushed it down into the grubby world of details, who gets polled, who buys, who gets to write and publish -- ie, power dynamics! which is kind of half my point. there is no escaaape.

the beautiful thing about "the canon" is that it is only as meaningful as you want it to be so you could try just not giving a fuck about whether Mariah Carey is "in" it or not

the "white male rock canon" is not "my canon." I am a fan of rock music but I am also a fan of other kinds of music. I voted for the Beatles & Stones not for some white male rockist good old boy "now that there's REAL music" reasons but because both bands wrote & recorded a lot of tunes that I enjoy quite a bit, moreso than the artists they were up against. It is -- get this -- COMPLETELY OK with me if people have different opinions!!! Have I convinced you that I am willing to engage with this idea?

i don't think either kate or i was arguing this. iirc we were saying that the initial choice of artists and how they were whittled down reinforces a particular canon that really doesn't need any more reinforcing in the most boring possible way, and that it's especially disappointing on the tradtionally canon-sceptical ilm.

I didn't include mariah carey entirely because I didn't think she would beat these 32 things in a matchup w/ a large number of voters. for no other reason.

A sales-based canon would be interesting and, I'd wager, still really frustrating for Lex

seriuosly lol'ing at the idea that Mariah would somehow magically poll better on ILM than fucking MADONNA or Kate Bush, for example

lex, why did you say people weren't willing to engage with the idea that other people like different types of music if you only believe that iatee's blinkered poll is disappointingly boring for ILM?

Lex dude, you could start a poll.

― grab you by the boo-boo and don't let go (kkvgz), Friday, July 23, 2010 12:21 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

actually now I am kinda really into this sales-based notion... where's a list of best-selling artists of all-time (Oum Kalthoum REPRAZENT)

the beautiful thing about "the canon" is that it is only as meaningful as you want it to be

when the canon contains stuff you like it's easy to say this

seriuosly lol'ing at the idea that Mariah would somehow magically poll better on ILM than fucking MADONNA or Kate Bush, for example

did i say she would? now who's putting words in other people's mouths?

OH SHIT LOOK WHO'S AT THE TOP

lex, why did you say people weren't willing to engage with the idea that other people like different types of music if you only believe that iatee's blinkered poll is disappointingly boring for ILM?

because the minute k8 actually pointed this out, most people saw fit only to respond w/mockery and insults

mariah carey's a good example musically. in terms of iconic status, longevity, output, popularity, influence, whatever the criteria you're using to justify the white male rock canon acts, she fulfils, and she's seen as canon by a pretty huge number of music listeners - the idea that she's part of a "specialist" canon is insane. yet i'm pretty sure iatee never even considered putting her in here, and she's rarely seen as canon by this demographic.

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, July 23, 2010 11:19 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is a pretty good point.

but you could make the same point about, like, the eagles, who i'm betting a) beat mariah on all these real-world metrics and b) would probably get smoked BY mariah in a head-to-head ilm poll

large-scale success vs canonical respect, as a conflict, doesn't line up exactly with the ruling class vs. subaltern conflict

it is kinda awesome that half the final four is the all time rock bitchfight argument of all time haha

and, stones over beatles, forever

did i say she would? now who's putting words in other people's mouths?

yeah dude, you did when you complained that she met all the criteria but was not included, the implication being that she should have been included because she would do well:

in terms of iconic status, longevity, output, popularity, influence, whatever the criteria you're using to justify the white male rock canon acts, she fulfils, and she's seen as canon by a pretty huge number of music listeners -

xp

Lex dude, you could start a poll.

― grab you by the boo-boo and don't let go (kkvgz), Friday, July 23, 2010 12:21 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

― grab you by the boo-boo and don't let go (kkvgz), Friday, July 23, 2010 11:26 AM (2 minutes ago)

the beautiful thing about "the canon" is that it is only as meaningful as you want it to be so you could try just not giving a fuck about whether Mariah Carey is "in" it or not

While I was writing and deleting three separate posts, this pretty much nailed what I was trying to say.

I would actually be interested. xp

but you could make the same point about, like, the eagles, who i'm betting a) beat mariah on all these real-world metrics and b) would probably get smoked BY mariah in a head-to-head ilm poll

you could! there are any number of acts who fall outside the mojo canon who could be included.

I would actually be interested. xp

^^^me too!

And again, I would love to see an alternative canon (incl lots of pre-1990 artists) from Kate or Lex. I'd just like to know what one would look like. The most interesting attempt at a total fuck-you, revisionist canon was the mid-80s NME one, which in retrospect is both admirable and bizarre.

yeah dude, you did when you complained that she met all the criteria but was not included, the implication being that she should have been included because she would do well:

there is no implication of the sort in that sentence, stop reaching

you could! there are any number of acts who fall outside the mojo canon who could be included.

guess what, some of them were! I've never seen Madonna or Hall & Oates or Biggie or ABBA "immortalized" in the pages of MOJO afaik

he beautiful thing about "the canon" is that it is only as meaningful as you want it to be so you could try just not giving a fuck about whether Mariah Carey is "in" it or not

While I was writing and deleting three separate posts, this pretty much nailed what I was trying to say.

again it's easy to say this when "the canon" actually represents stuff you like

I've never read MOJO, but I'd assume that the Fall or the Smiths weren't included either.

Or Wu.

we showed you ours, now you show us yours

i will vote for ODB's verse from "Fantasy" over any Beatles song, start the poll!

I've never read MOJO, but I'd assume that the Fall or the Smiths weren't included either.

― grab you by the boo-boo and don't let go (kkvgz), Friday, July 23, 2010 4:34 PM (12 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you'd be very very wrong

Or Wu.

― grab you by the boo-boo and don't let go (kkvgz), Friday, July 23, 2010 4:34 PM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

actually they did a wu-tang article a couple years ago, was pretty great

because the minute k8 actually pointed this out, most people saw fit only to respond w/mockery and insults

when someone mocks and insults what people are doing as disappointing and boring, they often get mocks and insults in return. I know it sucks when your tastes aren't represented, but there's only so self-righteous you're gonna get away with being about the appreciation of "stuff you like."

iatee, for reference, can you state HOW the initial round of 64 artists was selected?

mojo is very 60s/70s classic rock in their covers (esp in choice of what's on the cover) but honestly they do a lot wider range than ppl think.

knew the Beatles wd be up there on a sales list - that list's Europe and America mostly I think, so it's still not worldwide accurate - but I feel like sales, allowing for length of time the records have been available and other stuff, is as close to a "this is what people really like" canon as you'll get. And that list is different I think to what some people on here are calling "the Canon" and that makes me think "the Canon" is a bit bollocksy.

I think we've done some kinda poll on best-selling artists a bunch of times tho.

again it's easy to say this when "the canon" actually represents stuff you like

well, I think the big diff btwn us here is that you might be actually into the music criticism scene & I am not (outside of ILM). I never have to hear anyone ever talk about "canonical" artists.

Okay, I just looked at MOJO's website and on their "Disc of the Day" section, they were plugging the fucking WIPERS, so I have no idea what everybody's slagging on them for.

i will also meekly suggest that these polls are just ways of killing time and sparking arguments while we all waste our lives away online so you know, i don't really care who wins either way other than hey that's kinda kooky

Okay, I just looked at MOJO's website and on their "Disc of the Day" section, they were plugging the fucking WIPERS, so I have no idea what everybody's slagging on them for.

― grab you by the boo-boo and don't let go (kkvgz), Friday, July 23, 2010 4:37 PM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah they do tons of punk and post punk stuff esp UK stuff...i dunno. it's definitely a rock dude mag but i usually enjoy the articles and outside of having to do like 8 million beatles articles, which i assume is sorta like US Weekly having to put britney on the cover for sales, it's a good mag mostly

Honestly, all polls do nothing more than reveal (or reaffirm, depending) what the interested portion of ILX likes and nothing more. If you find this genuinely disconcerting, you're probably better off arguing for the dismantling of the poll-making system in general than sneering about individual instances of people utilizing it.

Look here - Kristen Hersh article! Total boring canon. thhhhhhhppppppppttttt!

Here's a list of the top 64 selling acts of all time from the RIAA site with the millions of units they've sold:

BEATLES, THE 176
BROOKS, GARTH 128
PRESLEY, ELVIS 120
LED ZEPPELIN 111.5
EAGLES 100
JOEL, BILLY 79.5
PINK FLOYD 74.5
STREISAND, BARBRA 71.5
AC/DC 71
JOHN, ELTON 70
JACKSON, MICHAEL 69.5
STRAIT, GEORGE 68.5
AEROSMITH 66.5
ROLLING STONES, THE 66
SPRINGSTEEN, BRUCE 64
MADONNA 64
CAREY, MARIAH 63
METALLICA 60
VAN HALEN 56.5
HOUSTON, WHITNEY 55
U2 51.5
ROGERS, KENNY 51
DION, CELINE 50
DIAMOND, NEIL 48.5
FLEETWOOD MAC 48.5
TWAIN, SHANIA 48
KENNY G 48
JOURNEY 47
ALABAMA 46
GUNS 'N ROSES 43.5
JACKSON, ALAN 43
SANTANA 43
CLAPTON, ERIC 42.5
MC ENTIRE, REBA 41
SEGER, BOB AND THE SILVER BULLET BAND 41
PRINCE 39.5
CHICAGO 38.5
SIMON & GARFUNKEL 38.5
FOREIGNER 37.5
2 PAC 37.5
STEWART, ROD 37
BACKSTREET BOYS 37
DYLAN, BOB 37
MC GRAW, TIM 35.5
NELSON, WILLIE 35
DEF LEPPARD 35
BON JOVI 34.5
COLLINS, PHIL 33.5
TAYLOR, JAMES 33
KELLY, R. 33
DENVER, JOHN 32.5
QUEEN 32.5
DOORS, THE 32.5
SPEARS, BRITNEY 32
MATTHEWS, DAVE BAND 32
PEARL JAM 31.5
BOSTON 31
DIXIE CHICKS 30.5
RONSTADT, LINDA 30
PETTY, TOM 29
OSBOURNE, OZZY 28.75
PETTY, TOM & THE HEARTBREAKERS 28.5
MANNHEIM STEAMROLLER 28
LYNYRD SKYNYRD 28

have at it, poll makers

MC Reba Entire

(looking forward to the U2 vs Barbara Streisand throwdown)

OKAY GUYS I GOT THIS

dave matthews band: why are they so uncanonical and hated

looking at that list, it's the white women ilm really doesn't give a fuck about. i can think of discussion here about all those, but streisand? celine? reba mcentire? and yes i know madonna is white but you get me.

the new manheim steamroller mixtape - DJ black bill gates presents move or get rolled on vol. 1 - is pretty dope

That list is just post '58, right? Because I would think Bing Crosby would be somewhere up there. Isn't his version of 'White Christmas' still the best selling record of all time?

but that's probably an age thing. not a lot of over-40 american white women posting here! people talk about what they know, which is driven by what they grew up with.

i think we're only barely in control of what our tastes are, to be really real about it

xps lol

think that RIAA list is US sales only, could be missing a load of interesting stuff. the wiki one is better imo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists

i willed myself to like frank zappa

(looking forward to the U2 vs Barbara Streisand throwdown)

honestly I would vote Barb for a) collaborating with Steely Dan and b) this album

also the one where she's inexplicably dressed like Supergirl on the cover

i would call that a triumph of the will

xp

think that RIAA list is US sales only, could be missing a load of interesting stuff. the wiki one is better imo

if by "better" you mean "has less Mannheim Steamroller", then I agree

we'd be better off discussing mannheim steamroller than boring old stones vs. beatles i guess

Actually making these polls is too much like hard work for a Friday evening. Kudos, iatee.

That list is just post '58, right? Because I would think Bing Crosby would be somewhere up there. Isn't his version of 'White Christmas' still the best selling record of all time?

how were sales even tracked pre-'58...? also once you start getting into the pre-LP era sales become more and more meaningless - quantifying popularity becomes more difficult cuz you have to give creedence to radio listenership, etc. otherwise you end up excluding fantastically popular stuff like Bob Wills or whoever

That wiki list is tons more fun tho.

i would call that a triumph of the will

xp

― goole, Friday, July 23, 2010 4:47 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i find your lack of faith....disturbing

xxpost

Used to be a music sheet sales chart before the LP era, at least in the UK.

I'm wondering, have some of you never heard Mannheim Steamroller?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0pTBNkt9g4

So much terrible, amazing entertainment behind these guys

neverenoughlights.com

I used to have about four Steamroller albums on mp3. Result of misplaced curiousity but I wd find it very difficult to unironically endorse them.

is it sad that I am really enjoying this song

is it the "Look Around You" christmas special?

I have a Mannheim Steamroller Christmas ornament. It's a little wooden steamroller.

Was their ever an indie band called Camryn Manheim Steamroller? Should've been one.

iatee, for reference, can you state HOW the initial round of 64 artists was selected?

twas 32 - I considered 64 but it would have doubled the amount of threads necessary and I didn't know if it would be popular enough to justify starting 16 threads.

my criteria was predictive = I tried to guess what artists could theoretically get the most votes and included those over artists that would get slightly fewer votes - so I guess that could be phrased as 'I wanted to aim for the smallest overall margins I could get in a tournament that was going to include the beatles'. not that the margins were even particularly small! but that was the logic I was working with. I don't believe that including mariah carey and aphex twin over two things that I did include would have made the margins in this tournament smaller.

as I said in a different thread - 1. considering how well classic rock did and 2. the aforementioned 'smallest margins' idea - the people w/ the most to complain about are neil young fans. dude could have theoretically made the semifinals.

to get the 32, I asked for suggestions in another thread, looked at a lot of old vs. polls, trying to figure out what artists brought results in the high double digits. wouldn't have included hall and oates and the stooges if I were making it today. I guess not going w/ 64 is a bigger regret.

the last things cut on my bigger list: pavement, sonic youth, roxy music, daft punk, jay-z, aphex twin, joni mitchell, pixies, pet shop boys, neil young, REM

things that just slipped my mind, possibly would have found room for them: go-betweens, cocteau twins, scott walker

I have not actually heard pavement or the go-betweens

don't think the go-betweens are even widely known, let alone widely listened to. i hadn't heard of them until "oceans apart" got good reviews

:D @ mannheim steamroller

it's the music that geir hongro dreams

If there is ever another attempt at a March Madness bracket style ILM cannon poll, here's my suggestion for how it might be made "fairer":

Do a nominations thread where everyone gets to send in a ranked list of their top bands. I'm not sure how many would be a reasonable limit. 20? 50?

Based on the results of that, take the top 64 and do a proper seeding, the top 4 would be all ranked #1, the bottom 4 ranked #16, split them into 4 regions with #1 facing off against #16, #2 vs. #15, etc.

Of course the final four will still probably be The Beatles and Rolling Stones, so I guess you just can't win.

PLENTY of bands would have taken out the Rolling Stones earlier - they had a pathetically easy ride

Which bands?

the problem w/ seeding is that this isn't a basketball game. putting #1 seeds against #16 seeds just means the beatles have an even easier path to victory.

I mean for a start if David Bowie had defeated the hordes of challopian JD/NO voters, he'd have minced the Stones IMO - plenty of us voted Stones against JD/NO out of irritation that the latter group won their first round

well then it's your fault for voting out of pique

next time, try voting for the band you like more instead of "punishing" others for having a different opinion from you

as I said at the time, I didn't have strong opinions either way on that one and I actively like more RS songs

yes I am yet to discover the joys of New Order

anyway, plenty of bands elsewhere on this poll would have beaten the Stones, of that I am certain

I don't even like Bowie that much! Christ help me.

I blame CCR's loss to the Stones squarely on ignorant Britishers

I voted CCR for not being the Stones, don't look at me dude

lol no worries wasn't thinking of you in particular - just remembering various Britishes scratching their heads on the CCR threads, seems like their way more obscure over there

ignorant britishers: the hidden engine behind the CCR voting contingent

for what it's worth the vote I'm regretting most is TRS over JD/NO - because yeah they may have 1000's of lame copyists nowadays but loads of their stuff bangs pretty hard and I'm yet to give it a proper listen etc etc

the only single votes that mattered were can/beach boys and stevie wonder/fleetwood mac - other than that you can feel comforted that your vote didn't matter

long live democracy

here's some "joys of New Order" for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQfV-9tv6Ag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMZ3E6rWNd4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvztvq8BSS8&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y52UHWQRQ0&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx4OVI5cbgs&feature=related

gonna play those all at once and have a seizure, brb

I wish I could take back my Can vote and give it to the Beach Boys.

Three minutes into 'Sunrise' and I am regretting my vote even more. WHY do I shoot first and ask questions later

The Smiths and New Order...I'm going to end up really liking both of them, aren't I. FOR WHAT DID I ONCE FIGHT

The easiest way to get rid of the boring Beatles vs Rolling Stones canonical shite is to match them up against each other in the first damn round.

Looking at the splits in the first round, it could have been done a little fairer by putting up like against like a little earlier. That would have made for way more interesting decisions in the later stages of the voting.

agreed, but part of the problem is that all of the artists were thrown into a random number generator and assigned spots based on how they fell out

Looking at the splits in the first round, it could have been done a little fairer by putting up like against like a little earlier.

who is "like" Kate Bush...? Prince maybe?

WHY do I shoot first and ask questions later

― Anti-Suggest Ban Order (acoleuthic), Friday, July 23, 2010 1:49 PM (1 minute ago)

Do you really want an answer to this?

If the answer is "not from you," that's cool.

If there is ever another attempt at a March Madness bracket style ILM cannon poll, here's my suggestion for how it might be made "fairer"

These aren't bad suggestions, but imo to avoid rehashing the canon discussions, the hivemind accusations, and the whither ILM? soul-searching, it might be more interesting to just have more individualized brackets (maybe even have two different posters' brackets face off? that could get ugly tho). Lex didn't respond to the 5 or so requests to start his own poll, which is too bad, but someone else who wants nothing to do with the mojo canon could do one. It crossed my mind, after noticing the lack of geographical diversity, to start a world cup one.

I don't particularly care to have my rhetorical questions answered but if you want to stick the boot in on my still occasionally over-exuberant posting-style then be my guest xp

or... maybe just own up to the fact that a bracket poll is nearly meaningless and indicates nothing about the music in question

it really can't be made fairer, imo, the format is unfair.

The easiest way to get rid of the boring Beatles vs Rolling Stones canonical shite is to match them up against each other in the first damn round.

right except this poll was about boring canonical shite and I stated as much on the first thread. aiming to purposely knock things out that would otherwise be popular goes against the basic idea of this poll.

It crossed my mind, after noticing the lack of geographical diversity, to start a world cup one.

Great, another depressingly banal England performance followed by a humiliating early exit.

if it were really like a bracket march madness tourney, an individual performance on that given day is crucial. so you'd have to do a random selection of one of that artists' songs against the other, from their whole catalog.

that was gonna be more or less how the tiebreakers went actually

(w/ 5 songs rather than 1)

haha that would actually be awesome

like, Prince could come correct with "When Doves Cry" or "Kiss" one day, then kind of limp into the next round because even though he pulled "Jughead", U2 pulled "Get On YOur Boots"

xp
would definitely field Oasis for England

in other news 'Procession' is also quite good if not AS good as 'Sunrise' - am liking the synth drones more than anything else really

sorry England, you have drawn Kate Nash

(it's okay though, because the US has drawn The Jonas Brothers)

anyway the knockout tournament format exists now as a goofy alternative to srs polls and anyone is free to do whatever the hell they want with it. I think that song idea is actually pretty clever and would be more interesting than this poll, fwiw! this was basically an experiment.

(and Canada has drawn Fefe Dobson)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFHmBWVTwXg

^^^^ better than radiohead

'Truth' is getting pretty intense - loving the wall-of-sound build-and-bust aspects of New Order, even if there isn't much variety in the songwriting.

how has lj never really listened to new order?

The easiest way to get rid of the boring Beatles vs Rolling Stones canonical shite is to match them up against each other in the first damn round.

― Milk From The Milkman's Wife's Tits (Masonic Boom), Friday, July 23, 2010 6:53 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

looking at all these artists, it's pretty hard to say that it's more "boring" to like say the rolling stones than like prince or my bloody valentine or madonna....these are all pretty universally respected/huge artists among the kinda folx that post on music messageboards.

have danced my butt off to blue monday and generally been 'ew boring dance-rock blabber' when another one of their songs has hoved into my ken - 'Murder' is kinda groovy btw - I think my biggest problem with NO has always been the (lack of) songwriting and the unoriginal melodic choices, but this is missing the point I guess

didn't new order have the "white keys only" rule of making keyboard melodies?

looking at the voting numbers, it looks like the stones are punching way under their canonical weight anyway. it is ilm, after all...

haha yeah i mean only beating CAN by 21 votes

jd/no came relatively close to knocking them out.

In general the glossier New Order gets, the more elaborate their melodies become.

west region was pretty bizarre really, I thought bowie would cruise

eh that part of his life is long behind him

or sometimes they just go full-tilt "yes we're a dance group":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYwNLlTt3AQ&feature=related

see also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx3uZtQRs_U

didn't new order have the "white keys only" rule of making keyboard melodies?

you are thinking of Geir's "white artists only" rule of making keyboard melodies.

also you have to remember that Bernard Sumner can't really sing, so when he tries to get more "complex", it sometimes gets... dicey...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRqdOyMnnxM

'Morning Night And Day' has a much more modern production feel - I'd say that the other stuff, especially 'Sunrise' and 'Trust', is more dynamic, though - they have a natural, jammy dynamism to them, and an organic, pulsing sense of growth in the sound - this just sounds a bit like a modern dance-rock song, glitzy production-touches and all. Its saving grace is that it is very catchy, and has a SLIGHTLY more elaborate melody, yes. I think the other songs have more depth, though.

"Morning Night and Day" is only 5 years old

yeah I know - I heard the song 'Krafty' on MTV at school and was like 'lol this is the worst song ever', prejudicing me against all New Order ever

'Fine Time' is booming btw - the production even reminds me of The The a bit! Which coming from me is a MASSIVE compliment. Very urgent, very kinetic.

Not liking 'Here To Stay' so much. I MUCH prefer NO when their sound is unplaceable, archaic, even slightly haunted - modern production removes all the mystery and reduces them to a beat with a boring melody I think

I haven't even gone into the Joy Division stuff, which is arguably even better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnWPGSQjFUc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK7YPVwM2Jo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaG5iFpWV48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0We9d5J3BLQ

I've heard Joy Division (albeit not nearly enough)! It's...OK from what I gather...I'll listen to those in a minute.

kind of alarmed by how much I enjoyed Mannheim Steamroller up there

too bad the pairs are not the other way round here so I could vote VU and Prince and not have to give a shit abt Beatles vs Stones

too bad the pairs are not the other way round here so I could vote VU and Prince and not have to give a shit abt Beatles vs Stones

+1

didn't new order have the "white keys only" rule of making keyboard melodies?

you are thinking of Geir's "white artists only" rule of making keyboard melodies.

― chuck entertainment cheese (crüt), Friday, July 23, 2010 7:21 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha no i'm serious i swear i read that in an interview that they would only use the white keys just cuz they felt like all the melodies that came from only white keys were super memorable...

I haven't even gone into the Joy Division stuff, which is arguably even better:

yeah Transmission is pretty classic, although not perfectly my kinda thing if you know what I mean - not very spry, more like a primal howl

Dead Souls is much, much more my thing - looser, more ragged, more damaged - obviously I need to give Closer a good listen

Listen to the live Joy Division stuff - completely different (and IMO, better) animal.

Again, SLC - clearly a 'classic' but doesn't engage me so much - even the New Order stuff was inspiring me a lot more than that.

Atmosphere is a fantastic song by any count; I knew that already.

the idea that aphex twin, madonna and MBV are a "more interesting" canon that prince, beatles, VU seems ridiculous to me. they're exactly the same thing. boring, familiar, wonderful artists that vast numbers of people seem to agree on. getting bent out of shape about how much one's peers seem to share in common with some imaginary mojo readership strawmen just seems sad. some people over here like these things, while other people over there like those things. so be it. no set of tastes is the enemy, and no vision is trying to erase all others.

worst thing about all of this = the snotty "we're the COOL kids" positioning relative to stuff that (ostensibly) less discerning people like. so boring and awful.

Y'know what argument needs re-starting on this thread?

Streisand vs. Mariah?

hey, i slept in

Barbra's on "Enough is Enough" = win

hey, i slept in

whatever, Mr. Oppressor. why do you hate women, anyway?

hey, i slept in

Equivalent of rolling up in Berlin in 1946 as a fresh-faced recruit and shooting the first German you saw imo

he was asking for it

he had a non-canonical look about him

Kraftwerk haters cannot contain their boiling hatred

getting bent out of shape about how much one's peers seem to share in common with

Isn't that sort of the point of these polls?

i dunno. i was getting pissed about VU beating stevie not due to VU's imaginary association with OPPRESSORZ, but cuz stevie is objectively better as measured by scientists

http://www.trad-jazz.co.uk/AcousticJass2008sm.jpg

ILXors refuting claims of being trad, earlier today

L-R: OK I'M NOT GONNA GO THERE

sousaphone players are disgusting savagees imho

March Time = stomping jackboots of the Man

hey contenderizer, Voodoo is indeed ace, thanks for the heads-up earlier.

i know, right? wasn't my heads up, though, cuz i was having the same epiphany in real time at the recommendation of noted canon-haterz lexx and (i think?) HI DERE. as communicated in some other, slightly less butthurt thread.

for the sake of credit where due, was actually the rev and a hoy hoy. more evidence that i remember nothing.

so I'll eat my hat...a lot of hats...if the stones win

but prince vs. vu is actually quite up in the air, I think

I'm taking it that someone else is already on August Madness: Worldwide Sales? If not, I'll do it.

I think noodle vague gave up on his attempt, so it's all yours

just saying it here and now - totally not my fault when the beatles win that too

I'll wait till this massacre is done before I begin, unless Noodle says otherwise.

xpost: Ditto

should be done around august 1st

I'm watching. My dilemma is that I have to cut four from the 100-million Wiki list to make it 64.

Hey M., I just used this list randomizer in the ILX Food Fight:

http://www.random.org/lists/

Very handy for creating the bracket.

Already created! (Scientifically, no less.) Thanks, though.

ha I used that one too!

(charts were excel)

Can I just say that it's massively bizarre to accuse a set of 32 recording artists of being a slavish reiteration of middle-aged white man classic rock when that set does not include ELVIS FREAKING PRESLEY?

I think it is bizarre to hold out David Bowie, My Bloody Valentine and Aphex Twin as alternatives to the white male rock canon. I guess I can give MBV points for being half female, but it wasn't mainly Kevin Shields calling most of the shots in the band anyway, wasn't it?

Hey Matos, got no problem if you want to run the World Sales run-off, what with me being a lazy man and all. I thought it was probly best left until this one had finished, yeah.

Can I just say that it's massively bizarre to accuse a set of 32 recording artists of being a slavish reiteration of middle-aged white man classic rock when that set does not include ELVIS FREAKING PRESLEY?

Really really not uncorking this genie again today but Elvis has never been comfortably part of the Rockist Canon, mainly cos of the whole "not writing his own songs" thing.

I think it is bizarre to hold out David Bowie, My Bloody Valentine and Aphex Twin as alternatives to the white male rock canon. I guess I can give MBV points for being half female, but it wasn't mainly Kevin Shields calling most of the shots in the band anyway, wasn't it?

I find it bizarre that someone can take the long-running debates of popism v rockism on ILX, take all the artists that Lex and I and others have named-dropped along the way and then cherry pick a selection of white males to dismiss our arguments.

But I suppose that's to be expected from someone who can look at a band that is 50% female and 50% male and decide that only one of the male ones "called most of the shots anyway."

The filtering that you clearly apply when you read, digest and respond to things just shows your bias so obviously that I don't even have to bother.

think that RIAA list is US sales only, could be missing a load of interesting stuff. the wiki one is better imo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists

I already did a poll based on the Wikipedia list of best-selling artists, and guess who won?

Who is the best artist/band to have sold over 200 million records?

fwiw i'm not going to do a poll but artists i would include in both my personal canon who i also think are ~important~ enough to be in any general alternative to the white male rock canon - which i'd argue would NOT be an "alternative" or "specialist" canon, but as central as any that involves velvet underground and the fucking smiths (i mean outside of indie kids who gives a shit about the smiths, seriously) - anyway this somewhat offhand:

nina simone
the supremes/diana ross
joni mitchell
billie holiday
mariah carey
janet jackson
michael jackson
björk
tori amos
tom waits
pj harvey
destiny's child/beyoncé
ricardo villalobos
britney spears
missy elliott
wiley
mary j. blige
erykah badu
jay-z
snoop dogg
grace jones

i'd vote for any of those over anyone in the original poll except perhaps madonna

so in response to this pathetic bit of sarcasm:

I'm sorry that our boring board is now implying that the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Velvet Underground, and Prince contributed more iconical music to the landscape than Britney Spears.

she's definitely contributed more, uh, "iconical" music than one of those acts, and better music than 3 of them.

True enough. I've never owned any record by either Britney or VU, but I definitely know several Britney songs through their stature in pop culture, and this isn't the case with VU at all! In fact, I can't remember ever consciously listening to a VU song.

I'm stunned by you liking Tom Waits. When did this happen? xp

i'm disappointed this likely won't be a stones vs prince final because i really want an excuse to post "mick jagger can fold up his penis and go home."

lol

Tuomas, part of the appeal of VU is listening to them UNconsciously. It goes down easier that way.

Or don't even listen to them. Hold a cd up to your ear and suck out the experience through osmosis.

I'm stunned by you liking Tom Waits. When did this happen? xp

since 2001

i actually like VU but you have to be a moron to argue that britney spears has made less iconic music than them

too bad the pairs are not the other way round here so I could vote VU and Prince and not have to give a shit abt Beatles vs Stones

story of all these polls imo

Boring canonical Supremes/Diana Ross v Madonna showdown... oh wait, that'd actually be really really nailfiles at dawn to the death. Next poll, then (assuming that Madonna wins the Aphex v Madonna showdown, which I assume she will unless Karen goes and squawks about it to watmm)

xxp Depends on the audience. But that's really the case with all music, no? VU and Brit Brit are probably at about the same level of importance in my own personal canon, which is definitely in the bottom 50%. Even then, VU seems more important.

I mean, the way this "poll tournament" has been set up, it's pre-programmed to result in boring results, not matter what artists you put in at the start. Why pose it in such a ridiculous adversarial way? It's not even mathematically correct - I mean, WTF are the Rolling Stones doing in the finals? Artists in the first round who garnered more votes than the Stones:

Kate Bush
Beatles
Public Enemy
Velvet Underground
Kraftwerk
Prince

That's a slightly more interesting - not to mention much more representative of ILM in general - poll right there. But if you insist on treating music like a boring football tournament then you go on getting boring and mediocre results.

Boring canonical Supremes/Diana Ross v Madonna showdown... oh wait, that'd actually be really really nailfiles at dawn to the death

the real nailfiles at dawn to the death fights taking place in 1000 other places on the internet probably as we speak are the endless madonna vs mariah vs janet ones

Ha ha, Diana sharpened her nailfiles on HER OWN BANDMATES so she could take Madonna, Mariah and Janet in a spangled heartbeat!

xxp Depends on the audience. But that's really the case with all music, no? VU and Brit Brit are probably at about the same level of importance in my own personal canon, which is definitely in the bottom 50%. Even then, VU seems more important.

Yeah, but in my opinion calling music "iconical" means that everyone is aware of it, not just the sort of niche listeners who are actively looking for this type of music. In that sense Britney is iconical, VU not so.

actually supremes/diana vs destiny's child/beyoncé would be super-interesting, talking of sharpening nailfiles on one's own bandmates!

actually supremes/diana vs destiny's child/beyoncé would be super-interesting, talking of sharpening nailfiles on one's own bandmates!

Yeah, I did actually think that, as I hit submit. Especially given the whole Dreamgirls performance... he heh. Next poll, and the winner goes on to fight the winner of Aphex/Madonna!

Anyway, who cares, I just got the Mrs Jynx record in the post so enough of this noise... ::skips off::

VU was a niche band in the '60s. They cannot be classified that way now. And I bet that on 6 out of 7 days of the week, more copies of VU albums sell in retail situations than any Britney Spears album that's not a best of compilation (until she releases something brand new, that is).

That's not definition of "iconic" though, that just means that they're "cult artists". Cult artists tend to have a long tail of sales, but that doesn't automatically make their music iconic.

Again, if you stop random people on the street and ask them to sing (or even name) a Britney song and a VU song, I'd say the ratio of those who know Britney to those who know VU would be more than 100:1.

I hate the word iconic. I know it had a meaning once, but now it's just a nonsense word. I get what you mean about the likelihood of more people on planet earth being familiar with "Baby...One More Time" than "Sister Ray," but they're both incredibly iconic tracks depending on the discussion.

more copies of VU albums sell in retail situations than any Britney Spears album that's not a best of compilation

It's hardly representative, but on last.fm charts, Brit comes in at 93, while VU comes in at 184. I mean, VU means more to me, but the notion that they're less iconic (as in a less pervasive and influential cultural presence) than Britney Spears seems pretty self-evident to me. I guess you could try to start an argument about VU being more influential and having a bigger impact on those who listen to them, but those kinds of argument get pretty condescending and elitist pretty fast.

The only way to answer these questions is with more polls. & then we should poll the polls too.

Of course, the Kooks come ahead of both VU and Britney Spears on that last.fm chart, so never mind.

I guess you could try to start an argument about VU being more influential and having a bigger impact on those who listen to them, but those kinds of argument get pretty condescending and elitist pretty fast.

That's what I was trying to avoid, tbh. My point was that Brit's Q rating may be really high the world over, but that's tied to her extra-musical life as much as it is her charting singles. Not saying her fans are dopes or anything. She's made a few great singles. But to a certain sector of music listeners, VU occupy some kind of band-on-the-hill status that's unimpeachable...and furthermore, people who don't even treat them that way at least know the name and what the first Warhol-designed album cover looks like.

But people who don't care about Britney's music also know her name and what she looks like, and that she kissed Madonna and shaved her hair, etc etc... That's pretty much the definition of an "icon".

Again, I think a situation where a relatively small group of people find an artist's position "unimpeachable" makes them a "cult favourite", not an "icon".

That's the definition of celebrity. xp

But a significant part of Vu's appeal to me comes from some degree of fascination with Lou Reed's Beat sociopath persona, and I hardly think I'm alone in that. I mean, I didn't love the VU parts of Please Kill Me for the profound insights into the creative process. Similarly, fascination with Britney's trailer park princess routine can't really be separated from what gives one pleasure in the music.

"Icon" to me comes with the connotation of not having done anything embarrassing.

If that'd be true, there would be very few icons in the world of popular music.

As there should be. There are lots of celebrities, but few icons.

So would you, for example, say that Michael Jackson was a celebrity but not an icon?

^^^ poll

Also, iconic status seems to me kind of like a looking-back-on-one's-career status. You can look back and say Marvin Gaye or Diana Ross are icons, but assigning that title to Britney Spears seems quite premature. Famous celebrity? Yes. Worldwide recognition? Sure. Icon? She'll have to earn that.

I think a lot of people on this thread are conflating "iconical" and "canonical" because hey they're both churchy sounding terms. Because Tuomas has a better command of the denotative meaning of these words without the connotations, he is presenting a clearer picture.

VU may be more canonic but Britney is way more iconic.

Why are you trying to take all the nuance out of this, Tuomas? Michael Jackson embarrassed himself a bit, musically and non-musically, but to deny he's some kind of icon would be ridiculous. Was he an icon when Thriller came out? No. He was pretty damn famous, though. Was he an icon 25 years AFTER Thriller came out? He certainly was.

Britney Spears is already an icon - she practically popped out of the box as one. The fact that people will describe a naughty schoolgirl outfit as "Britney" rather than "Lolita" these days shows that she has made her way into the public collective imagery in a way that is certainly "Iconic".

...& that was now 10 years ago so you can't say "she hasn't earned it yet baby" or whatevs.

I guess my gripe is that "icon/iconic" is a term too loosely ascribed to someone who's merely a famous celebrity, especially in this particular argument. I CAN say she hasn't earned it, because she hasn't. Maybe if we switch "icon" for "idol" here it would make more sense. If Britney's still as famous in a couple decades as she is now, you can call her an icon w/o objection from me. But David Cassidy was crazy famous 35 years ago and now he's a pleasant memory.

can't see the point in arguing that britney is somehow a less valid pop icon than dylan or whoeverthefuck. but nor can i see any great service that's provided by putting her up as an idea. she's a pop star, like so many others, and not intrinsically better or worse than any of her peers. i find her dull, but that's just me. if you like her, that's great. and if you don't, that's great, too. in neither case are you making a more politically or aesthetically valid choice than the dreaded "mojo readership".

...as an ideal.

xpost. Thanks for posting an alternative canon, Lex. Still only nine artists pre-1990 though. I think when you're constructing a canon prior to that point it's very hard to ignore a lot of the artists in this contest. One big problem is that the canon favours album artists/auteurs (which is why soul is usually only represented by Marvin and Stevie) and lots of my favourite music, from the 60s especially, is more about singles and backroom songwriters. To correct that imbalance that you'd have to include Holland-Dozier-Holland, Goffin-King, Norman Whitfield, Gamble/Huff, etc, then later people like Timbaland. Then there's the question of scenes: some artists are canonical for the scene they represent more than for their own back catalogue in isolation. If Britney were included she would signify modern teen-pop in general, just as Biggie signified 90s hip hop, whereas Dylan is just Dylan.

But in this case it comes down to what iatee said. A 64-artist line-up would have avoided a lot of these arguments but involved a crazy number of voting threads.

In short: the problems with the canon are about favouring a kind of back catalogue that is dominated by white men rather than favouring white men per se.

A 64-artist line-up would have avoided a lot of these arguments but involved a crazy number of voting threads.

― Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Saturday, July 24, 2010 4:10 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

plus, unless the brackets were deliberately stacked to eliminate certain artists/genres and favor others, i think you'd end up with something quite like these results. it's testament to the centrality of certain artists/ideas/approaches in the culture shared by die-hard, late 20th century, internet-enabled pop fans & critics. i'm not that these artists should be central, just that they are. the fight to unseat them and to install an alternate canon is a noble one, i suppose, but good luck selling your version to the sorts of people who post & vote on ILM.

it's testament to the centrality of certain artists/ideas/approaches in the culture shared by die-hard, late 20th century, internet-enabled pop fans & critics

it is literally incredible how much straight white men always consider themselves central - are you seriously suggesting this particular canon is shared by, say, the millions of teenage girls worldwide in the 90s who grew up on a diet of mariah, mary j et al?

Still only nine artists pre-1990 though

it's basically the artists from my personal canon which i consider ~important~ enough that there should be general interest in them too, of course it's going to be slanted towards the years in which i was sentient. but equally the original poll is totally tilted AWAY from the 90s, esp when you consider that 1960-90 = 30 years, 1990-2010 = 20 years. no reason for post-1990 stuff to be overlooked at all now.

If Britney were included she would signify modern teen-pop in general, just as Biggie signified 90s hip hop

these ideas are sort of weird to me. britney's closest contemporary in terms of background, age, era etc is probably xtina, but there's no way that either signifies the other. and i'm sure 2pac would be pleased to see biggie signifying him lol

I gotta agree with Lex here: even on the age of Internet people tend to exist mostly in their own little focus group bubbles, which creates the illusion that their canon is the canon.

Lex, surely you see that I'm talking in the context of this contest rather than literally claiming that BIG = Tupac, and surely you can see that teenage girls who grew up on a diet of R&B don't tend to think in terms of a critical canon or have much interest in reshaping it. To critique the canon properly you need to make an effort to understand why it is how it is instead of offering the same kneejerk responses. I'm trying to engage with why it's flawed - you're just going blah blah blah, straight white men.

I think the problem is what the people with the most power to shape the Official Canon (i.e. mainstream music writers) come from a rather limited pool of music enthusiasts whose taste veers towards White Male Rock type of stuff. You probably won't get very high in the music writing hierarchy if you champion Britney or Mariah, therefore you never get to shape the Canon.

You probably won't get very high in the music writing hierarchy if you champion Britney or Mariah, therefore you never get to shape the Canon.

Surely, that's somewhat less true than it was. I guess the power of Pitchfork distorts things a bit, but I don't think Ann Powers, for example, has suffered for writing eloquently and sympathetically about Rihanna. It's not quite like the 70s, when seemingly only Vince Aletti was paying consistent attention to non-rock pop and writing intelligently about it(although that perception may itself be a distortion caused by which music critics get canonized and anthologized).

surely you can see that teenage girls who grew up on a diet of R&B don't tend to think in terms of a critical canon or have much interest in reshaping it.

well, i think they do - maybe they don't have any interest in ossifying it as a canon or getting it in rock magazines, but there's as much interest in comparing artists to each other, ranking them on their success, quality, influence &c &c, the exact same judgments that go into any canon-forming exercise. i mean this is why there's an r&b hierarchy in the first place, why mariah and mary j are held in higher esteem than the numerous one-or-two-hit-wonders of the time who are just fondly remembered, like kelly price or brownstone or shanice or jade or sunshine anderson...

but tuomas is right about why that canon doesn't get to be seen as the Official Canon. or rather - people whose tastes veer towards White Male Rock stuff tend to have the arrogance to presume that their specialist canon is The Official Canon - you'll never see it presented as "the rock canon" or "the indie canon", but as The Canon, objectively decided and unarguable.

Surely, that's somewhat less true than it was

it def is! but isk, maybe it's my imagination but there's definitely been a bit of regression in that regard over the past couple of years, or at least more vocal resistance to it.

Lex & Tuomas absolutely OTM.

Dorian, it's pretty damn obvious to us WHY The Canon is the way it is. I mean, we are repeatedly told "it's just the way it is, like the sky is blue" when it's obvious that The Canon is full of straight white men doing rock because it's CREATED by straight white men who like rock, and no one else gets to have a voice. Because the Canon is fenced off - and then women are told they're not interested in creating it based on their exclusion from it. Self reinforcing on every level.

I mean, we're looking at a thread where some idiot is trying to tell me that the Velvet Underground are more "iconic" than Britney Spears (and trust me, I am the biggest DDB in the world, I own more VU than Britney, but I'm never going to agree with that statement) because *he* LIKES the VU and doesn't like Britney. The way that the straight white male, because he has brainwashed himself and the world into thinking that he is the centre of the universe (and all culture reflects that back to him) - that he can redefine the word Icon at will to mean "stuff I like" rather than something much closer to the actual meaning which is much more like "stuff YOUR MUM would recognise."

Hence they make this lesser category of "celebrity" to dismiss the latter while still privileging the former so that they don't have to taint their straight white male world. They can write off non-SWM into some sneered at populist category they don't have to take seriously.

cannot believe the terrible trio are still at it

jesus christ

Good argument.

xpost to Tuomas - To put it that way downplays (1) history - things take time to bed in so a canon in any artform is going to be dominated by older works, and will evolve over time, and (2), the primacy of album over single (like cinema over TV, novel over short story), which privileges certain genres. Those, I think, are more interesting questions to ask.

To Lex - There's no official canon inscribed in stone but when the same names come up again and again (and are NOT all rock or indie) a canon is formed. The closest to an official canon - The Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame - is generally considered a clueless joke and very different from what ILX might come up with. Being angry at the "canon", like it's this big monolith closely guarded by a sinister cabal of white guys, is daft.

And taking my cue from iatee, I'm off.

would you like to enlighten us w/your thoughts on the canon, iatee? not that i'm expecting much from someone so intellectually limited that the only way he can process ilm's love of taylor swift is to assume that everyone's pretending

I think the canon RULES

There's no official canon inscribed in stone but when the same names come up again and again (and are NOT all rock or indie) a canon is formed

well, different names will come up depending on who you ask! if you ask people who were teenage mariah fans in the 90s, it's probably guaranteed that the smiths wouldn't come up again and again => not canon to them

yes, and if they were voting in this poll it would have been more appropriate to include mariah and not the smiths

so bring em on over

xpost to Tuomas - To put it that way downplays (1) history - things take time to bed in so a canon in any artform is going to be dominated by older works, and will evolve over time, and (2), the primacy of album over single (like cinema over TV, novel over short story), which privileges certain genres. Those, I think, are more interesting questions to ask.

Sure, but there are several older acts/artists too who sold shitloads of records, yet never got accepted to the canon, because they weren't considered "serious" enough or whatever. And as for primacy of album over single, that just part of the White Male Rock mindstate: the shapers of the Canon favour the format favoured by the artists they like.

For example, disco never made it to the Canon because it was a single and dancefoor-oriented genre, spearheaded by women, gays and black people. Rap only started making its way to the canon after it became more album-oriented.

can't believe how tempted I am to imagebomb my own thread

And when you read canonical histories of 70s popular music, disco is often mentioned as sidenote, as a superficial, populist fad... Whereas those kind of histories tend to say punk was the most important thing that happened in the 70s, even though punk most likely was never as popular as disco was.

(x-post)

http://www.popmonkeys.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/canon-powershot-g10.jpg

http://www.inkcloners.com/images/articles/canon_logo.jpg

http://www.eastcoastphoto.com/images/bfinder/Powershot-S1-IS_1786.jpg

http://www.planetware.com/i/photo/kremlin-tsar-cannon-in-moscow-r243.jpg

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Nick-Cannon-dime01.jpg

http://www.jmu.edu/rotc/03-Activities/03-Cannon/Cannon2.JPG

http://www.civilwaracademy.com/images/Civil-War-Cannon.jpg

http://www.mattstackle.co.uk/images/products/CANNON%20BALL.JPG

Can someone please temp ban iatee if he's gonna image bomb? Not cool

it's my thread and I've decided to change the theme of the thread to "pictures of canons"

can someone please temp ban anyone who refuses to post pictures of canons?

http://images.contactmusic.com/videoimages/sbmg/nick-cannon-gigolo.jpg

http://www.indianarog.com/Cannon%201.jpg

http://www.nataliedee.com/012506/maracas.jpg

http://cannonsuperstore.com/reenactor/Bol%20KM28487.jpg%20cannon.jpg

Whereas those kind of histories tend to say punk was the most important thing that happened in the 70s, even though punk most likely was never as popular as disco was.

Doesn't making it an argument about popularity distort things slightly? I know that's partly what's being discussed here, yet no one here is complaining about the absence of the Eagles or Garth Brooks from the canon. There's a reason for that.

Also, why exactly is it shocking/disappointing/scary that a poll positing one possible ILM canon should result in impassioned bitching about the nature of canon formation?

If the poll shook out with Mariah Carey coming out as ILM's all time favorite, wouldn't there be/shouldn't there be be a lot of puling from those who had a problem with that? I mean, I would hope people would complain. I mean, I know I would want to.

it's not shocking/disappointing/scary, it's just tiresome and prevenets any other discussion from going on

prevents

like, if you want to discuss the canon and its implications, great, have fun. but that's not what this thread was created for, so go do it in another thread.

hey look, apparently ILM has had discussions about 'the canon' before! consider reviving one of these wonderful threads:

The Canon Threads
The Canon
What is "canon"?
Defining the canon by influence
The "Popist" canon?
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=17613
Hypothetical Questions for a Keeper of Canon Purity Test

lol @ iatee throwing his toys out of the pram

yeah these threads had NOTHING to do with the canon. nothing whatsoever!

and there was soooo much amazing discussion in here before people started to focus on the canon.

I know that's partly what's being discussed here, yet no one here is complaining about the absence of the Eagles or Garth Brooks from the canon. There's a reason for that

it'd be totally valid to complain about that, i'm just using stuff i like as examples. the exclusion of r&b and disco applies equally to country.

Sorry to interrupt your thread iatee (the poll idea is good fun btw) but if people really wish to see a non mojo type ILM canon poll then there is one tracks & album poll you can all vote in for another week and see the results in a few weeks. And no beatles or stones etc in sight! Come join us!

hahaha I don't think I've ever seen anyone straight-up do a commercial for their thread before, rock on

haha. its not so much that (honest), its just that the canon haters probably wont be seen dead on that thread either. I think people would rather a canon to their own tastes rather than no canon at all (which is unachievable now). Hard rock/metal gets shafted on general canons as much as any genre. It's just how it is, so they create their own canon! it's not any more or less important than a rolling stone/mojo canon.

I get pissed off when jazz & soul/funk gets left off these canons, so the best thing to do is to read about a jazz canon or create an ILM one. But all these ilm polls are just a bit of fun. Its not meant to be definitive. the EOY threads are never to my taste, but they're always fun, I learn about stuff I might not have heard of. But they're not to be taken too seriously.

since I guess Lex missed these the first time around.

when someone mocks and insults what people are doing as disappointing and boring, they often get mocks and insults in return. I know it sucks when your tastes aren't represented, but there's only so self-righteous you're gonna get away with being about the appreciation of "stuff you like."

Honestly, all polls do nothing more than reveal (or reaffirm, depending) what the interested portion of ILX likes and nothing more. If you find this genuinely disconcerting, you're probably better off arguing for the dismantling of the poll-making system in general than sneering about individual instances of people utilizing it.

OK yeah let's hear this amazing never before posited argument of Beatles v Stones that none of us have ever heard before that you were gonna bust out before I got here. Asked for it about 200 posts ago & still haven't got a response...

you really shouldn't be calling out people for rehashing the same old shit

The Canon

ILM bracketology haters, why not take your canon-hate there and quit shitting in the punchbowl here?

lol that me unnecessarily being a dick led to ILM debating the relative merits of VU vs. Britney Spears

What everyone is forgetting is that Lex's canon is exactly as obvious and therefore boring as the one he's railing against.

in what ways is it obvious

i could list the artists in my personal canon that only ever sold 5 copies or had one hit and then were forgotten by the rest of the world, but what would be the point of that?

I guess picking names everyone has heard praised to death that aren't all white men is your point more than "I have a breathtaking new canonical formation!" was, and I overlooked it.

I find it bizarre that someone can take the long-running debates of popism v rockism on ILX, take all the artists that Lex and I and others have named-dropped along the way and then cherry pick a selection of white males to dismiss our arguments.

But I suppose that's to be expected from someone who can look at a band that is 50% female and 50% male and decide that only one of the male ones "called most of the shots anyway."

The filtering that you clearly apply when you read, digest and respond to things just shows your bias so obviously that I don't even have to bother.

It looks like you may have written me off as a lost cause. I didn't mean to appear to be dismissing your argument because I think it's a valid one. Those white males that were being offered as alternatives to the traditional white male rock canon above just kind of jumped out at me as being "meet the new boss same as the old boss", but I don't disagree that I'm looking at this discussion with particular set of filters. FWIW, I agree with you that this final four with Beatles going up against the Stones is kind of boring, as much as I like both of those bands. When this whole thing first started, I was hoping naively for James Brown vs. Parliamet/Funkadelic showdown.

I perceive My Bloody Valentine as primarily Kevin Shields' band in the same way that I see Hole as Courtney Love's band or the Smashing Pumpkins as Billy Corgan's band. I'm not denying that the other members of MBV played crucial roles in the bands sound and development. From my limited vantage point, Shields really seemed to dominate the band especially from Loveless onwards.

But I suppose that's to be expected from someone who can look at a band that is 50% female and 50% male and decide that only one of the male ones "called most of the shots anyway."

I love the implication here that we know absolutely nothing about MBV except the gender make-up of the group, and that there aren't a million articles about Kevin Shields being the mad genius who kept the group from finishing another album after Loveless, therefore "calling the shots" by any stretch of the imagination.

Interview with Bilinda Butcher:
http://totallydublin.ie/music-interview.jsp?id_artist_interview=11

either way it is kind of a red herring to determine the relative worth of someone in a band by who "calls most of the shots"

According to that, Shields was a benevolent dictator. But a dictator nonetheless.

If someone wants to argue Belinda Butcher's contributions have been ignored by the white male hegemony I'm more than sympathetic, but considering shit like "It was always Kevin who wrote all the music. Kevin had such clear vision of what he wanted to do...Kevin always wanted to uphold the myth about us being a band. In interviews, he never said that he was the one making all the music. He would probably be pissed off if he knew that I’m saying this now! But time has flown since then. I think it was obvious that Kevin did everything" its beyond facetious to act as indignant about someone calling Kevin Shields the band's leader as you would if someone saw a pic of the pretenders and said "which fellow runs the show? the lady obviously plays bass."

esp if you're going to follow the "j'accuse, sexist!" re: MBV's gender make-up with "The filtering that you clearly apply when you read, digest and respond to things just shows your bias so obviously that I don't even have to bother."

Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, and I'll try to stop, but the self-righteous conflation of "I'm morally indignant about the hegemonic nature of canon-making" and "this canon is boring and should have bands I like on it" is totally insufferable.

the canon consists of fallout boy, hasil adkins, and prince. period. amen. there is nothing more to be said. you can all go home now.

http://images.uulyrics.com/cover/a/acdc/album-for-those-about-to-rock-we-salute-you.jpg

Sorry I missed the party, and I don't want to reignite shit, but can't believe y'all missed this. : )

it is literally incredible how much straight white men always consider themselves central - are you seriously suggesting this particular canon is shared by, say, the millions of teenage girls worldwide in the 90s who grew up on a diet of mariah, mary j et al?

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Saturday, July 24, 2010 4:40 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmarkno ya fuggin bulb, as i said with painful specificity, this "canon" is central to the sort of internet-enabled, pop-crit-fixated obsessives who post on ILM. has nothing to do with with millions of teenage girls worldwide who don't vote in these polls. i mean it's great that you've decided to stick up for that oppressed underclass and what you imagine you know about their values, but...

but the self-righteous conflation of "I'm morally indignant about the hegemonic nature of canon-making" and "this canon is boring and should have bands I like on it" is totally insufferable.

I don't think the points was that the Canon should include only "bands I like", rather than all sorts of bands/artists who would have a legitimate claim to the Canon if it wasn't shaped the tastes of White Male Rock fans. For example, I've never much cared for Mariah Carey, but I see no reason why she shouldn't be considered canonical in polls like these, and I'm genuinely interested in why artists like her are left out of the Canon.

I'm genuinely interested in why artists like her are left out of the Canon.

That's awesome! BTW there's a recently-revived thread that would be a perfect place to theorize on why that is:

The Canon

Nearly every artist Lex named is "shaped to the taste of White Male Rock fans," as Tuomas so quaintly and hilariously capitalizes it. As far as I can tell there are a handful of borderline cases: Villalobos and Wiley (plenty of rock critics don't like dance music), Mariah and Britney (plenty of rock critics dislike that kind of pop as a rule, though lord knows they've both made records critics loved), and Nina Simone (kind of the definition of a love-or-hate artist). Unless you really want us to believe that Pazz & Jop winners Joni Mitchell, Michael Jackson, PJ Harvey, Missy Elliott, and Jay-Z are somehow critically maligned.

but I see no reason why she shouldn't be considered canonical in polls like these, and I'm genuinely interested in why artists like her are left out of the Canon.

― Tuomas, Saturday, July 24, 2010 3:08 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

what do you mean, you see no reason? this is a popularity contest. the significance granted to certain artists is nothing but the expression of ILM voters' aggregate tastes and values. mariah carey didn't finish here cuz she wasn't included in the original poll, and if he had been, i'd bet money that she'd be eliminated early on. this isn't because she doesn't deserve a slot in some imaginary canon handed down from on high, but because she's not as popular around here as, say, the velvet underground. or even kate bush. and that's fine. tastes vary from group to group, and political objections aside, no one's obligated to like mariah carey.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

The sad thing is that we spent so much time arguing about the boringness of arguing about Beatles vs. Stones that we never talked very much about VU vs. Prince, which actually might have led to some interesting talk about how we think about the figure of "the genius" in pop, whether and when require it, who wants popular music to be art and why, etc. -- all of which figures profoundly in the way we think about these two great acts.

otm will join you for that discussion in 18 minutes when mad men is over

stones, prince, lol

re. Prince vs VU, here's a good comment from a few years ago:

I like to pretend "The Cross" is a lost Velvet Underground track from the day Lou found religion. In other words, it's a fucking awesome guitar song.
― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:48 AM (4 years ago) Bookmark

I was just rocked by the take on "The Cross" on The Work, Volume 2, & this kind of thought came to mind.

I like "The Cross", but I always thought the heavy rock guitar on it is ill-fitting. It's clearly a gospel song, so it would've worked better with a different sound, and a more gospel-like guitar.

there is nothing at all gospel about "The Cross"

lyrically it's gospel but otherwise Dan OTM

Wel, whatever it is, the ugly hard rock guitar feels wrong for such a delicate tune.

would you say that to prince's face?

such a strange thing to take issue with - second half is definitely not 'delicate' and a growly guitar makes much more sense than a synth or whatever else could be in its place.

alright new q:
velvet undergroundiest prince song?
princiest velvet underground song?

was thinking about that; prob. "Temptation Inside Your Heart"?

same one came to mind for me

reed/cale solo can be included too

such a strange thing to take issue with - second half is definitely not 'delicate' and a growly guitar makes much more sense than a synth or whatever else could be in its place.

It only makes sense if you hate guitar, which raises all kinds of other questions like "why are you listening to Prince in the first place if you don't like guitar music?"

otm - 'rock star' is only one of his hats, but it's definitely one of them

reed/cale solo can be included too

Red Joystick, obvy

haha I bring up this album too much but 'wrong way up' has a lot of prince-type arrangements - more eno's work than cale's - but outside of the vocals 'been there done that' and 'one word' maybe

yeah red joystick is maybe the best actually

could see 'sign o the times' with an off-beat lou reed vocal

Could imagine VU doing a chugging version of 'New Position' and Prince doing 'Femme Fatale' in his falsetto.

maybe a slowed down droney 'anna stesia'

<q>could see 'sign o the times' with an off-beat lou reed vocal</q>

Yeah, but it would definitely be solo Lou Reed, not VU -- "Sign O The Times" basically Prince's "Dirty Boulevard."

Can easily see Prince doing a stripped-down "When You Were Mine"-style arrangement of "Satellite of Love."

Or VU doing a straight-ahead "Raspberry Beret," in a lighter moment, but maybe I just think that because I've already heard Hindu Love Gods' chugga-chugga take on that song.

Is Stonesiest Beatles song and Beatleiest Stones song worth talking about? ("Yer Blues" vs., uh, "2000 Light Years from Home" or "She's a Rainbow")

"I Wanna Be Your Man" clearly the beatlesiest stones song

How about the least handsome band:

http://musicisart.ws/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/beatles.jpg
http://ctheh.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/the_rolling_stones.jpg

well, yeah. I think of late-period Beatles when I think of them, though. xp

'hey bulldog' could be early stones

eh I can't see Mick doing that comedy barking tbh

yeah not so much the lyrics either

okay cross poll now - prince could pull off a better version of 'wild horses' than the stones

"The Cross" vs. "Ocean"

I could totally see Mick comedy barking.

Princiest Stones song... 'Emotional Rescue'?

stones were pretty awesome at disco

iatee, how the HELL did you not include ICP up in this bitch.

the canon is famously anti-juggalo.

ICP vs. Dave Matthews should've been the final.

Oh shit, did I let the cat out of the bag?

Who's doing the anti-canon poll?

fyi canon final poll started early

ICP was literally the last thing I took off, I had 33 candidates and I had to cut either them or The Beatles

oh man

that would have been hilarious

gonna guess that the beatles beat the stones by like 50 votes

see you in hell velvet underground

srsly if VU wins I Am going to start buying plane tickets for an ILX groinpunch tour

if I had to put money on it, I'd prolly put it on VU, I mean they hit 3 digits last round

but it wouldn't be a lot of money

partly because I don't have any

C'mon Beatles, Prince! Yeeeeeeaaaahhhhh!

holy shit 99-98

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

lol

ban everyone

So many bitter Prince fans.

almost 100 of them

but unfortunately for them, not 100 of them

holy shit 99-98

― iatee, Monday, July 26, 2010 6:00 PM (3 minutes ago)

:-O

how the hell did you do that

beatles got 51 more than stones

so much symbolism

WmC the result flashes up at midnight britisher time dead, but System takes a minute or two to be all HI DERE

oh ok, I thought we were all going to have to mob iatee for stock tips

wait is this a FUCKING TIE?!?

oh 99 to 98

many x-posts

wow

so

Beatles - 124 Stones - 73
VU - 99 Prince - 98

I guess Beatles is pretty much a forgone conclusion at this point.

Stones - 73

this boggles me more than almost anything else I've ever seen on an ILX poll

The Rolling Stones are a popular rock band.

I like 'em.

I dunno I can see the Velvets taking this

why does louis hate the stones so much?

Well, it was close in the race that counted. Well played Velvets fans. A piece of red velvet cake to toast your victory:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/binary/0ee6/heroin.jpg

Oops.

http://www.laaloosh.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/red-velvet-cake.jpg

brilliant

XDDDDDDDDDDD

most apt mispost ever.

please, please, please say that was accidental

looooool

with added chris morrissism as well, genius/.

Sorry LJ. It was a totally intentional dig. : )

You fucking people

Cosign.

After all the talk about how this was inevitably going to be boring, something really interesting happened; people who like the Stones better than the Beatles also like VU better than Prince, and vice versa! I would never have guessed this and I'm interested in what the potential explanation could be -- I guess there's a sort of division into

pop, varied textures, whimsy, performance: Beatles & Prince
grittiness, straight-ahead rock sound, an interest in authenticity: Rolling Stones and Velvet Underground

But I voted for Beatles and VU (and I take the Stones to be a distant fourth behind the big three) so I'm only guessing.

"beatles got 51 more than stones

so much symbolism"

lol

Cosign.

― Mexico, camp, horns, Zappa, Mr. Bungle (Matos W.K.), Monday, July 26, 2010 4:47 PM Suggest Ban Permalink
Bookmark

You voted for the Velvets over Stevie, you are no better.

Pretty sure I never voted for the velvets once so I am pure and tru of heart

kkvgz I love you forever for that.

I think I voted VU over Radiohead maybe? Not sure. I really could go either way on that depending on how I feel at the mo.

absolutely take VU over radiohead cmon

okay, looking back I did vote for VU on that one

if that was the first round then i am sure i never voted VU.

guys on top of hating them for fucking up stevie and then prince, i also really fucking hate the velvet underground.

That's probably fronting on my part. I've gotten more play out of Kid A than VU&N.

I don't hate the Velvet Underground, I just don't particularly like them, neither.

"Waiting for the Man" is a total jam tho.

I have never heard the music of the Velvet Underground.

i even out of some sorta obligation picked up that box set used for like almost no money and listened to all of it and wow it is just devoid of anything likeable for me. its makes me all geir listening to crunk i just get mad when i listen to it, idk.

before someone shows up and tells me that i need to listen to some bootleg that sterling morrison found hidden behind his couch when he moved and then i will get it just dont bother

jjjusten have you heard Sterling Morrison Couch Bootleg #5, that shit will turn your world around

xpost, shit

man it would almost be worth learning how to torrent just to upload a bunch of lawnmower deth as "VU RARE CELLULOID BOOT MUST HAVE #22"

that VU live at the gymnasium boot from a couple years back really is the shit tho (word to bimble)

lawnmower deth

jesus you people

late period poets carrying on the VU tradition imo xpost

the thinking persons anal cunt, if you will

Okay, that's it for me for this tournament, I have no interest in it after these results. It was fun while it lasted.

well that's a fine how do you do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx-nBxg7L_Y

lol this tournament is basically The Case Against Music Polls writ large & participated in by all the people who really dig polls

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Final round should be restricted Bungalow Bill vs Lonesome Cowboy Bill imo.

lol this tournament is basically The Case Against Music Polls writ large & participated in by all the people who really dig polls

― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:36 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:39 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

so, like, why are you guys reading (and posting on) this "music poll" thread again?

^^^just curious, y'understand

why are you posting on this board?

this is at least going to be funny when The Beatles win by over 100 votes

i voted for vu solely because of the prince partisans on this thread

I think I voted for VU in every single round. I guess I'm part of the problem, sorry guys.

Please post your address in this thread so I can plan my itinerary

99 stops on the groinpunch express

I imagine like 40 of them are in williamsburg, so that'll save you some $

fung wah bus, here I come!

just waiting for Dan and John to take away my mod powers