Blatantly racist songs that have managed to pass under the prejudice-radar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6lxuYme-8c
Always surprised this song didn't get too much flak for it's pretty scathing views of the Chinese. Yet still, it describes the slave-trade as an
aspect of Chinese society, alongside it's "polluted water"...
for any Chinese to attack the song would also imply a defense of the trade. I guess it's not so bad, but you'd never see stuff like this ever
hitting the radio-waves today.

Also, there's no YouTube video if it but on Disc 2 of Pavement's Wowee Zowee: Sordid Sentinal's Edition you can hear one of the group members
adding a chorus of "Suzuki! Yamazaki! Toyota! Mitsubishi!" in a faux-Japanese accent during the live version of Box Elder. Personally made me
lol but, once again, the live denoted that it was played on Aussie-radio and surely hearing any band today do the same would definitely flag
down the Japanese equivalent of the NAACP (whatever that may be).

RADAR! RADAR! With an A.

ladies and gentlemen, mr. kel_polaris

Moz has like twelve of these.

yeah the british music press really dropped the ball with that story

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxUz2VHJuhk

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=video&cd=1&ved=0CDMQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DiRdsI0FLPDY&ei=fu3lTIyPMYqIhQeM6_3nDA&usg=AFQjCNFnVlEaxni9eyYG1fjCje5P7PqYsg

People have pointed out how horrible "Brown Sugar" is like a million times, right? Because I've actually never seen it done, but it seems too blatant not to have attracted tons of ire. In any case it does seem to get a pass(though of course that's different from flying under the radar prejudice).

Er, "flying under the prejudice-radar," that is.

oh this guy is back?

KUNG FU FIGHTING
(Douglas)
Carl Douglas - 1974
Also recorded by: The Drifters; Bus Stop; La Muerte.

Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
For they fought with expert timing

They were funky China men from funky Chinatown
They were chopping them up and they were chopping them down
It's an ancient Chineese art and everybody knew their part
From a feint into a slip, and a-kicking from the hip

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
For they fought with expert timing

There was funky Billy Chin and little Sammy Chung
He said here comes the big boss, lets get it on
We took a bow and made a stand, started swinging with the hand
The sudden motion made me skip now we're into a brand knew trip

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they did it with expert timing

Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
Make sure you have expert timing

Oh-oh-oh-oh
Kung-fu fighting
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Had to be fast as lightning

Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Keep on....keep on....keep on
Oh-oh-oh-oh....Yeah, yeah
Oh-oh-oh-oh........FADE

They edited out the "chinaman" part from the version of this used in Kung Fu Panda, so it didn't pass under everybody's prejudice -radar.

not really seeing the racism in Kung Fu Fighting.. maybe someone can explain it to me

is it that he calls them "cats", which are subhuman animals?

then again any song that starts off with this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_riff - has some splainin to do i guess

one of my best friends - who is Korean - has that riff as her ringtone and it just slays me whenever her phone rings

GNR's 'one in a million'. axl never copped any flak for that, right? right?

Um, that Carl Dug song is just about describing the "kung fu" films anyway.

Don't understand why this didn't get more flak in the Rock Against Racism era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdsI0FLPDY

I think there was a 'sort-of' statute of limitations regarding a whole bunch of these, where if you 'fessed' up to being wrong, eventually it was put down to "the times were different" and the "scaredy" nature of the fear of 'immigration' was wrong.

Of course, when people like Eric Clap ends up saying exactly what he said before, over nothing stroger than orange juice, then's the time to mark down.

Never heard Black Messiah before so that definitely went under my radar. Not keen to hear it again either.

Tracer, I think that calling a Chinese person a "chinaman" is considered pretty racist.

That is f'ing hilarious about your friend's ringtone though.

the chinese verse in "work it"

I think there was a 'sort-of' statute of limitations regarding a whole bunch of these, where if you 'fessed' up to being wrong, eventually it was put down to "the times were different" and the "scaredy" nature of the fear of 'immigration' was wrong.

Has Ray Davies ever said anything about Black Messiah? Because I want to cut him some slack if I can.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060527054859/uncyclopedia/images/1/17/Siamese.jpg

Well, I was trying to find something re: Ray Davies, just got a lot of "Whoo, Ray was ahead of his time, Obama Obama" and so on. Internet sucks.

What the hell is Black Messiah really supposed to prove? I've never been able to work it out.

Paranoia I would have thought..

Rolling Stones-Some Girls. Though that might have caught some flak. In his new book, Richards stands by it, says that in his opinion, black chicks did really want to ....

I think there was a 'sort-of' statute of limitations regarding a whole bunch of these, where if you 'fessed' up to being wrong, eventually it was put down to "the times were different" and the "scaredy" nature of the fear of 'immigration' was wrong.

Still wonder what would have happened had the Beatles gone ahead with "No Pakistanis" instead of dialing it down to "Get Back." Probably not a rep-killer but maybe a tarnisher on the order of "Brown Sugar"...?

Above song makes me feel even smugger in my long-held belief that the Kinks mostly blow.

Hate and war - I hate all the English
Hate and war - they're just as bad as wops
Hate and war - I hate all the politeness
Hate and war - I hate all the cops

I wanna walk down any street
Looking like a creep
I don't care if I get beat up
By any Kebab Greek

sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much stuff like this that its kinda endless.

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/8c/31/6f82a2c008a0bf9e6ef24010.L.jpg

and they aren't even the worst offenders. that album actually does have some plight of the red man stuff on it. but if you made a comp of american pop songs about injuns it would be a 20 disc set.

had the Beatles gone ahead with "No Pakistanis"

This was always an improv song, where PMac related what Enoch said, not agreeing with him.

I always thought it more significant that later on, he's singing about the "Common wealth being MUCH too wealthy for me" at which point the man of the people Lennon suggests "much too COMMON" instead.

Oh, and I didn't realise that Kinks song was from 1978. Way after the stat.

(x-post) Good friend of mine went on a tirade once about "Please, Mr. Custer," and how it's always included on those "20 Goofy Greats"-type compilations, when the subject is anything but goofy.

(xx-post) My 2-year old is addicted to "The Aristocats" and yeah, those Siamese Cat characterizations are definitely from another era.

Rock & Roll N*gger

Okay, so now I know why Ray Davies got shot in New Orleans.

you could get away with cliche and pretty bonkers race/ethnicity novelty songs until at least the 70's. in america anyway. nobody even blinked.

um, quaint?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOdsOhqDfZ8

just disney alone...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ5ld-MlKcM

My step-mom had the HAIR soundtrack and about whipped the shit out of me and my step-brother when she heard us running around the house singing this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovkk7XpOfyo

I guess context is everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63CiRbiaoFo

People seem to (by and large) give Joy Division a pass on their horrible-if-you-think-about-it name.

Maybe not the lyrical context so much as the "Ugh-a-wuga" backing vocals, "Running Bear and Little White Dove."

Ha, I always think of wigs when I hear "Wig Wam Bam". Maybe because the song doesn't have that fake American Indian percussion and singing that some bubblegum songs have.

Rolling Stones-Some Girls. Though that might have caught some flak. In his new book, Richards stands by it, says that in his opinion, black chicks did really want to ....

― Randy Moss' dog's personal chef (Bill Magill), F

oh yeah that definitely caught some flak from feminists and civil rights group iirc. i think Jesse Jackson commented on it. and Garrett Morris did a bit on 'Weekend Update' after the the commotion.

Yeah, Jesse Jackson's really one to talk, dude's a total womanizer. Just like with anti-gay preachers, the moral issue a politician inveighs agains the most is what he's engaged in in his secret life.

1. I would hardly call Pavement being goofy "blatantly racist"
2. Next time you copy a post from your blog/another msg borad you should prolly delete the line breax or something?

(2. I think he just hit return at the end of the test box, not realising that the wrapround will
happen anyway. I just tried one there. Let's see what happens. I'll type a bit more so that two
lines are in. OK, this is two and a half lines)

The 1910 Fruitgum Company took a different "Indian Giver" right into the top 10 in 1969.

But "Please, Mr. Custer" really is just... un... believable. And it was a Billboard #1. It should be studied & analyzed to work out how something so creepy and unfunny struck a chord with the mass American public (well I guess we do have a long tradition of such phenomena, but still... ).

Womanizer aside, there's also the matter of that place called "Hymietown"
xxxposts

You could collar Siouxsie for Arabian Nights too. "At your primitive best". Borders on Islamphobia. But hey, great tune.
Vapours' Turning Japanese could sound also offensive if you don't know what the reference is!

Did anyone care when Chuck D started a band called Confrontation Camp?

is anyone going to pillory the Ramones' "Indian Giver"...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PzhPIU-RU4

The 1910 Fruitgum Company took a different "Indian Giver" right into the top 10 in 1969.

― Josefa, Friday, November 19, 2010 11:06 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

same song brah

also: it's a little dumb to call indian giver "racist" when i'm sure that phrase was pretty common back then

Vapours' Turning Japanese could sound also offensive if you don't know what the reference is!

apparently, the "well known" fact is untrue about this song.

also: it's a little dumb to call indian giver "racist" when i'm sure that phrase was pretty common back then

...

WIKI:

Indian giver is an English expression used in North America, used to describe a person who gives a gift (literal or figurative) and later wants it back, or something equivalent in return.

The term "Indian gift" was first noted in 1765 by Thomas Hutchinson,[1] and "Indian giver" was first cited in John Russell Bartlett's Dictionary of Americanisms (1860)[2] as "Indian giver. When an Indian gives any thing, he expects to receive an equivalent, or to have his gift returned."

The phrase can be offensive,[3][4] particularly to Native Americans.[5]

same song brah

lol so that's why it's so damn catchy

The Ramones' and 1910 Fruitgum "Indian Giver" are the same, the Annette one is different, just for the record.

i mean it IS a racist phrase but i think it's good that ppl don't use it anymore, but the reality is that it was more common back then and now it's not, so that's progress, but i dunno if i could really judge them for using it because i'm sure i wouldn't have known better myself if it were alive back then you know?

its still okay to say that someone welshed on a bet though, right? or that they gyped you? cuz who cares about the welsh or gypsies?

What would be a phrase now "we don't know any better" that will show up on a thread like this in 30 years?

xpost

probably best not to use the former in a Tredegar pub of a Saturday night.

Tho the pub's probably only open till 10 lol amirite?

cuz who cares about ... gypsies?

not the French, evidently

What would be a phrase now "we don't know any better" that will show up on a thread like this in 30 years?

"retarded" and "gay", probably

What would be a phrase now "we don't know any better" that will show up on a thread like this in 30 years?

hipster

"Walk Like an Egyptian" is pretty fuckin racist imo

"Can you believe there was once a band called 'Gay Dad'?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxAr66vtUoQ

whenever I watch old movies I marvel at how skinny Americans used to be

They were Britishes, we lived on tea and bread and margarine until 1965.

egyptians really do walk like that though!

x-post

I'm impressed that kelpolaris has discovered that early Siouxsie and the Banshees may have been racially insensitive tho.

http://images.newstatesman.com/articles/2008/1026/026_p22.2.jpg

just a little Nazi fetishism nothin to see here lol

[/i]What would be a phrase now "we don't know any better" that will show up on a thread like this in 30 years?

"retarded" and "gay", probably

― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Friday, November 19, 2010 11:34 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink[/i]

yep

What is the non-racist interpretation of Turning Japanese? (Given that it's about a guy in jail, wanking over his girlfriend's picture.)

scott: vids of irl Egyptians walking like an Egyptian or it didn't happen

The song was believed to euphemistically refer to the face a male makes during the act of masturbation.[1] In a VH1 True Spin special the band denied this. Songwriter David Fenton explained: "Turning Japanese is all the clichés about angst and youth and turning into something you didn't expect to."[2]

(x-post) If we're veering all the way back to old vaudeville routines, this is gonna be a loooooong thread...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oK031kvoFI&feature=related

Siouxsie (understandably) feels pretty sore about the Nazi high jinx that her and the rest of the punk hipsters used to get up to but at least she acknowledged this with songs like 'Metal Postcard' and 'Israel'.

XP: Noodle Vague - Goddamn! That's the most disingenuous thing I've ever read!

man we could bust out Chu Chin Chow and so much more but my sand dance vid was only to illustrate the offensive racism of "Walk Like an Egyptian".

"I Recall a Gypsy Woman" is pretty iffy too

um this is from 2005:

""The culture around then," Siouxsie explains, "it was Monty Python, Basil Fawlty, Freddie Starr, The Producers- 'Springtime For Hitler'." She kicks out her leg in a mock goosestep. "It was very much Salon Kitty. It was used as a glamour thing. And you know what?" she sighs." I have to be honest but I do like the Nazi uniform. I shouldn't say it but I think it's a very good-looking uniform."

You shouldn't say it for fear of upsetting the PC mob?

"Yeah. It's almost like you feel like saying,'Aw, come on. Nazis - they're brilliant.' Political correctness becomes imprisoning. It's very - what's the word? It's being very Nazi! It's ironic but this PC-ness is so fucking fascist. In America they're especially touchy about Nazis and it's so Nazi! You go to LA and it's so segregated. It's very Nazi and the irony is they don't get it. They don't realise how Nazi they are about taking offence to mentioning the word Nazi."

FYI Siouxsie, wearing a swastika armband is different from "mentioning the word nazi"

Omigod we've not even mentioned Bowie's "accent" on "China Girl". And it has the riff.

did bowie or iggy write that?

from same Siouxsie interview:

What about the accusation of anti-Semitism? Come on, there was that original lyric in "Love In A Void": "Too many Jews for my liking"...

"That was a Severin lyric."

You sang it.

"Yeah, I sang it, but I took it as it was meant, as 'skinflints'. Obviously a lot of people didn't get it that way, so it was changed."

xpost

Half and half from memory? But Iggy's version doesn't feature that horrible "Just you shut your mouth" bit iirc

Iggy's version is so much better

If you think that bit's bad you should see the live version of him doing that song live and doing slitty eyes and sticking his teeth out...

Bowie that is.

?? but his girlfriend is telling david to shut his mouth in that part, china girl otm

Michael Jackson used 'jew' as a verb meaning to cheat in a song but I can't remember which one.

and sticking his teeth out

Don't think he was doing this on purpose

Yeah, in the original it's 'Oh Jimmy, just you shut your mouth.' as in James Osterberg

Michael Jackson used 'jew' as a verb meaning to cheat in a song but I can't remember which one.

no he used the term "kike"

Noodle: you won't be saying that when you see it, it's unbelievable.

XP: No, I don't know the song you're talking about.

xxpost

"Jew me/Sue me" from "They Don't Care About Us"

Wow. I am so not gonna feel bad about illegally downloading some Siouxsie records. Brb.

"Kick me/Kike me" from the same song

and yeah, Siouxsie has always ben kind of a monster, which was why I avoided that band for a good long time even though I think they are thoroughly amazing

As a pre-teen in good old 70s Britain we used "Jew" to refer to mean kids without having the slightest inkling of the racism behind it. A friend of mine was made forcibly aware of it when he wrote "Jew is a Jew" on one of his exercise books, Jew being his class's nickname for some poor kid. He tells me he was given a fairly lengthy punishment and explication of why that was not cool.

as far as racially-suspect koans go, that one has a very nice cadence to it

I wd like to apologise for growing up in the last golden age of innocent playground racism by the way.

Where's the link to the Siouxsie interview from 2005? I thought the party line was she was full of remorse about the too many jews thing and wrote metal postcard and Israel as a means of trying to make amends. I'd like to know if it turns out she's still some kind of fashion nazi.

I was just skitting lolpolaris btw, I've never thought of the punk swastika as anything but boneheaded offensive provocation rather than ideological statement. Pretty sure Oi! didn't site Siouxsie et al as key influences.

Anyone recall the controversy over the 'Beast Within' mix on Madonna's 12" of Justify My Love?
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/05/arts/madonna-refutes-rabbi-s-accusation-of-anti-semitism-in-a-song-lyric.html

Same with Joy Division. They pretty much ditched all the teenage provocation stuff as soon as they ran into some real racist skinheads.

There were kids in my class in school with home made racist tattoos. The idea kind of boggles the mind now.

Siouxsie interview Uncut magazine January 2005

Pretty sure Oi! didn't site Siouxsie et al as key influences.

I'm sure this is true and of course there are degrees of racism etc. but check that line about Jew being perfectly acceptable short-hand for "skinflint" - that is fucking stupid and anti-semitic.

it's the "I don't understand why stereotypes are dangerous and offensive so what's wrong if I use them" version of racism/anti-semitism

I agree that it's not defensible on any level but I guess there is some dividing line between idiocy and malice.

the problem with practically everyone making the possibly rational/salient point that people take offense too easily towards everything these days is that they then go on to use as examples things that any reasonable person would find offensive

xp: the thing is, that dividing line is meaningless when you're the one getting hurt

A dividing line that this thread has sand-danced backwards and forwards over.

there is some dividing line between idiocy and malice

one hand washes the other, amirite

Yeah, it's an unimportant distinction, I agree, but in the end isn't what's depressing about this more that a grown-up Siouxsie still tries to defend herself and wriggle away from the implications of what she did rather than just go "I'm sorry we were fucking idiots in 1977"?

i've always felt sort of bad about not spending more getting to know the early siouxie stuff. no longer feel so bad about it, so thank you, thread.

The bollocks in those lyrics - which really was a product of some horrible racial slurs encoded so deep in English slang in the 70s that they were used thoughtlessly, I think - isn't really the sum total of what the early Banshees was about, thank fuck.

The Scream is an amazing album but yeah

I think the only saving grace musically is that a lot of this bullshit isn't in their best songs, and the ones that have it are the ones I skip

but in the end isn't what's depressing about this more that a grown-up Siouxsie still tries to defend herself and wriggle away from the implications of what she did rather than just go "I'm sorry we were fucking idiots in 1977"?

oh totally - I could forgive a little Nazi aesthetic fetishism or provocateurism as youthful nonsense or whatever but to try and weasel out of it 30 years later makes me much less forgiving

I had no idea about that interview. That's very depressing. What a fucking bell end.

This book opened my eyes to a lot of stuff.

What was Mark E Smith's defence for that line in The Classical? I'm sure this has been discussed on here before.

He's never explained it. He's just said it's definitiely not racist. Given that a lot of his lyrics are snatches of overheard coversation and stuff like that and that there's no context in the group to make them racist, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. But, well, it's pretty unpleasant right?

i disagree with the impulse to disown the stupidity of one's youth. i feel like a lot of people get away with a lot by showing the appropriate contriteness.

well yes, they get away with growing up

shame on them

i feel like a lot of people get away with a lot by showing the appropriate contriteness.

sure - but showing contrition is preferable to not showing any imho

There's a Slits song about robbing stuff from a cornershop that leaves a lot to be desired.

well did they actually grow up or did they figure out how to take advantage of people's forgiveness?
i feel it would be more illuminating to hear what goes on in their heads rather than some defensive PR apology,
and a more genuine apology would include acknowledgement that they in many ways profited and continue
to profit from the same pattern of youthful idiocy that resulted in the offense.

I think you need to be specific with stuff like this. I don't think there needs to be a Warren Commission on David Bowie's accent in China Girl but there should be on, say Eric Clapton or Phil Anselmo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW7DFXq-cdg

I don't know, that's pretty bad

Yeah, like I said upthread, live this song has been consistently appalling. But if we don't draw a distinction between idiocy, casual racism and evangelical, politically motivated racism, then we're guilty of muddying waters that should, imo, remain crystal clear.

I just spent ages looking for the video where he does the "slitty eyes"; I can't find it but my mate has it somewhere. It's appalling, made somehow worse by the fact that I think it was at a show in Japan.

do I really need to repeat "that line doesn't matter when you are the one getting hurt"

Except for that part at 3:24, that's a pretty awesome version.

Slick Rick - Indian Girl

I found this painfully bad.

Why is it racist to do a Chinese accent? Nobody thinks it's racist to do a British accent...

dunno have the Chinese ever colonized Great Britain and forced drugs on their general populace, degraded them as subhuman, etc.

It's a bit exaggerated for comedic purposes.

Except for that part at 3:24, that's a pretty awesome version.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I've never been a huge fan of China Girl, and I don't know if they've autotuned everything or what, but the sound on that is pretty blazing. Bowie's Asian mimicry sounded like Cookie Kwan on The Simpsons.

I agree that it's a really great rendition of the song, although learning that it was written in the middle of the 70s explains A LOT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_V9-Rd6HPk

^ nm, apparently did not pass under the prejudice radar

lmao @ the wikipedia synopsis of the remixes:

Swizz Beatz: "Habibi"
Translation: "My Love (Masculine Form)"
What they rhymed the phrase with: "While she feedin' me linguine"

Not racist SONGS, but def some casual insensitivity in "Chinky eyes" lines like Mos Def in Ms. Fat Booty, Lil Wayne's "My eyes so low I look like I'm from Hong Kong", ad infititum

the Bowie accent in that live video is so out of place and stupid that i'm surprised no one told him to, uh, just croon the part

He's an actor. A cracked actor.

Sorry to derail: Bowie video description says "HQ Vid & Excel sound." Luddite that I am, I'm not sure what Excel sound means, but googling leads me mainly to Bowie videos. I'm watching him do "Stay" from that same 2002 Paris show and it's kicking my ass.

Carry on...

the Bowie accent in that live video is so out of place and stupid that i'm surprised no one told him to, uh, just croon the part

― mc souleye (brownie), Friday, November 19, 2010 7:55 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he did on the album, I seem to recall.

really? I don't remember the orignal song. the live version is so screechy and ridic

"do I really need to repeat "that line doesn't matter when you are the one getting hurt""

If you can't tell the difference between seeing David Bowie doing a daft but offensive accent 25 years ago on a you tube clip and a neo-Nazi group playing in your area, for example, then you're the one who needs to nice up his thinking.

What you're talking about is comparing various levels of intent, which would be totally fine if all forms of racism were equal in their effect.

No one on this thread has said that Bowie is cool for being casually racist, so why don't you take that stick out of your ass and read what's being said.

bowie doesn't do that silly chinese accent on the studio version, no. without the accent there's nothing really racist that i can spot, unless talking about inter-racial relationships is racist. besides isn't the "china girl" a metaphor for heroin?

I didn't know that 2002 was 25 years ago

wow, the future is a total dumbass

what I am objecting to is the bullshit rationalization of "oh he/she is just being ignorant and doesn't mean any harm" that is rampant on this thread and happens a lot on this board (and in life, really)

if you're completely unwilling to listen to someone who HAS been targeted directly and incidentally by racial bullshit and can point out that the line you are so desperate to preserve is some horseshit that the privileged always pull, fuck off

someone mentioned eric clapton...this is so much worse than anything in this thread:

Originally conceived as a one-off concert with a message against racism, Rock Against Racism was founded in 1976 by Red Saunders, Roger Huddle and others. According to Huddle, "it remained just an idea until August 1976" when Eric Clapton made a drunken declaration of support for former Conservative minister Enoch Powell (known for his anti-immigration Rivers of Blood speech) at a concert in Birmingham.[2] Clapton told the crowd that England had "become overcrowded" and that they should vote for Powell to stop Britain from becoming "a black colony." Clapton told the audience that Britain should "get the foreigners out, get the wogs out, get the coons out" and then repeatedly shouted the National Front slogan "Keep Britain White."[3][4]

dunno have the Chinese ever colonized Great Britain and forced drugs on their general populace, degraded them as subhuman, etc.

― you can sub out "bipartisan solutions" for "some of my dick" (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, November 19, 2010 2:21 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

So by this great reasoning it's racist to do an Irish accent.

seriously, you don't get the racism in bowie's old school stereotypical chinky accent? are you that tone def to history?

lol "def" too much rap for this guy

The difference is that Clapton is hated by ILM, so his racism is inexcusable. Siouxie Soux or whatever her name is is some sort of idol around here so her racism is just youthful irreverence. Makes sense.

xxpost

I was just pointing out that racism is about power relationships

that being the case I'm sure there are some circumstances where a Brit doing an Irish accent could be justifiably construed as racist, sure.

xp

Siouxie Soux or whatever her name is is some sort of idol around here so her racism is just youthful irreverence.

that's not how she's been responded to on this thread...? I think yr misreading people.

altho no in general for what it's worth I don't have a problem with contrition/apologies being reciprocated with forgiveness. (Siouxsie is hardly contrite either, as I pointed out by linking that interview from 05)

I always thought Siouxsie was jewish.

Im not jewish, but seeing someone wearing a swastika as a fashion statement like that dumbass is in the picture above makes me want to puke. As does gasbag Clapton's comments. But i think Soux is getting some sort of pass here, or at least she was until someone dug up that interview from '05 where she made an utter ass of herself.

that being the case I'm sure there are some circumstances where a Brit doing an Irish accent could be justifiably construed as racist, sure.

More usually, in the case of British actors, ballclenchingly embarrassing.

"oh he/she is just being ignorant and doesn't mean any harm" - this is not my position.

My position is that there has to be a recognition of different levels of racism in terms of severity - rather like murder is treated by the US legal system. This has nothing to do with intent. I agree that intent is not as important as some people make out. But that's not what I'm talking about.

You're not in a position to judge whether I'm 'privileged' or not. You're bringing a lot of personal baggage to this discussion, which you'd better explain if you want me to be able to factor it into a debate. What with me not being psychic and everything.

Not that i'm defending her wearing a swastika or anything

xps

I haven't defended any racism from her or Bowie on this thread.

I just happen to think that Eric Clapton is in an altogether different league.

Now that I have seriously considered the lyrics to "Wig Wam Bam" it does contain risque references to American Indians.

Hiya watha didn't bother to much
About Minnie ha ha and her tender touch.
Till she took him to the silver stream
There she whispered words
like he'd neva heard
and made him all shiver inside when she said

Wigwam bam gonna make you my man
Wam bam bam gonna catch you if i can
Wig wam bam wanna make you understand
Try a little touch,try a little too much
Just try a little wig wam bam

Brother bear never cared enough
Bout little white dove and her tender love
Till she took him to the silver stream
She told him all about
What he couldn't live with out
And made him all weak in side when she said

What does Clapton say about his rant now?

Hiawatha
Minehaha

are actual Native American names fyi

dude doran dude don't argue with that dude. he'll ban you forever. best to leave it alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiawatha

Wig Wam Bam is pretty tame imho - sure it's a none-too-subtle exploitation of Native American references, but it isn't overtly racist or packed with slurs or crude stereotypes really

found this by googling:

Like Enoch Powell, Clapton has never taken back his comments or compromised his position. As recently as December 2007 he appeared on the South Bank Show and told Melvyn Bragg that he wasn't a racist but still believed Powell's comments were relevant. Unlike Powell, however, Eric Clapton's career has enjoyed a resurgence - he was given a CBE in 2004, reunited with Cream in 2005 and will be headlining this year's Hard Rock Calling in Hyde Park. Like David Bowie, who once told an interviewer that Britain would benefit from a Fascist dictator, "Slowhand" Clapton has managed to emerge from the allegations of racism seemingly unharmed.

Read more: http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/people,756,how-clapton-sparked-an-anti-racist-revolution,20473#ixzz15lebXjoz

is a white guy in a native American headress automatically racist? I dunno

Hiawatha
Minehaha

are actual Native American names fyi

― you can sub out "bipartisan solutions" for "some of my dick" (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, November 19, 2010 3:49 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

and streets in minneapolis!

Clapton, amazingly, refuses to apologize and even hints that you only have to look around now to see that he was right.

This is the guy who permed his hair to look like Hendrix and made a million covering Hard Times by Ray Charles.

can we all just agree that Clapton should be shot

by the sheriff?

*rimshot*

No one is arguing that Eric Clapton = Siouxsie Sioux = David Bowie in terms of how much of an actual asshole they are (although you could likely make a case for Siouxsie being close to Clapton) (aside: lol why is this list Britcentric). What is being argued is that the degree of offense you are talking about is way more important to the people likely to do the offending than it is to the people likely to be offended.

re: my baggage: I grew up as the only black male in my peer group in a town that was about 50% well-meaning ignoramuses who would regularly do things like expressing amazement that at 5'7" I couldn't dunk a basketball, because well of course all black people can dunk a basketball, or think that it was okay for the track team to shout "Nigger!" at the opposing team while I was standing right next to them because of COURSE I was a special one and they didn't mean me when they used that word. Varying degrees of racial insensitivity fueled mostly by ignorance and they all fucking hurt. There's only so much of your adolescence you can spend as The Ambassador For Black People before you basically just start saying "you know what, fuck this and fuck you, I have a life to lead".

If I am going to apply that standard to the people I am forced by circumstance to associate with, I don't think it's a particular stretch to apply it to the people I choose to listen to. Rereading that Siouxsie article, which honestly I'd never finished because of eye strain, is seriously making me reconsider the place her various musical projects have in my library even though "Night Shift" is one of my favorite songs.

agree about the white on black text thing ugh why do people do that

it is kinda odd how UK-centric this thread has been - but race relations in the US are profoundly different

. have any american artists emerged from such racist debacles as unscathed.

I'm trying to think of any post-60s that even really got INTO one. an American making a speech similar to the one Clapton made would have been banned, picketed, boycotted, etc.

What about someone like Lemmy, who lives in an apartment filled to the ceiling with Nazi memorabilia?

Lemmy: "It was quite funny, because I brought (the journalist) around to my house, which looks like a shrine to Nazism. But it's just my collection. I mean, you can't put it all in the cupboard; it won't fit.

"I only collect the stuff. I didn't collect the ideas."

Ok, even taking this at his word, who wants to live in an apt full of Nazi stuff? I'd have nightmares.

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/reviewpics/lemmyhat.jpg

This is probably off topic since it's not about a particular song, but it seems at least a bit apropos . . . .

what about sub-radar anti-Arab racism in US music - been much recently?

one of the stooges dudes was into that memoribilia shit too, can't remember which one

Ron.

Lemmy is a funny case.

Clapton continued:

"I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism. It’s much heavier, man. Fucking wogs, man. Fucking Saudis taking over London. Bastard wogs. Britain is becoming overcrowded and Enoch will stop it and send them all back. The black wogs and coons and Arabs and fucking Jamaicans and fucking (indecipherable) don’t belong here, we don’t want them here. This is England, this is a white country, we don’t want any black wogs and coons living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome. England is for white people, man. We are a white country. I don’t want fucking wogs living next to me with their standards. This is Great Britain, a white country, what is happening to us, for fuck's sake? We need to vote for Enoch Powell, he’s a great man, speaking truth. Vote for Enoch, he’s our man, he’s on our side, he’ll look after us. I want all of you here to vote for Enoch, support him, he’s on our side. Enoch for Prime Minister! Throw the wogs out! Keep Britain white!"[70]

I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism.
I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism.
I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism.
I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism.
I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism.

is a white guy in a native American headress automatically racist? I dunno

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/images/2008/06/13/calvincoolidge.jpg

agree about the white on black text thing ugh why do people do that

Racist.

Funny that: Elvis Costello's Ray Charles remark fatally stalled his career in the US, while not really harming him much at home. Nor did anyone in the UK/Ireland ever think he was a racist - his explanation - that he was trying to wind up an annoying yank - was pretty much accepted.

Shoulda just gone with the ol' "tampon on the head" routine.

hang on what the actual fuck @ clapton

yeah LJ, he's much more than just the most boring ass soloist of all time

I think this song's subtly racist, the "Don't know the difference between Iraq and Iran" part, subtext being, "and I don't care/need/want to, because I love me some Jeebus."

"Where Were You (When The World Stopped Turning)"

Where were you when the world stopped turning that September day
Out in the yard with your wife and children
Working on some stage in LA
Did you stand there in shock at the site of
That black smoke rising against that blue sky
Did you shout out in anger
In fear for your neighbor
Or did you just sit down and cry

Did you weep for the children
Who lost their dear loved ones
And pray for the ones who don't know
Did you rejoice for the people who walked from the rubble
And sob for the ones left below

Did you burst out in pride
For the red white and blue
The heroes who died just doing what they do
Did you look up to heaven for some kind of answer
And look at yourself to what really matters

I'm just a singer of simple songs
I'm not a real political man
I watch CNN but I'm not sure I can tell you
The difference in Iraq and Iran
But I know Jesus and I talk to God
And I remember this from when I was young
Faith hope and love are some good things he gave us
And the greatest is love

Where were you when the world stopped turning that September day
Teaching a class full of innocent children
Driving down some cold interstate
Did you feel guilty cause you're a survivor
In a crowded room did you feel alone
Did you call up your mother and tell her you love her
Did you dust off that bible at home
Did you open your eyes and hope it never happened
Close your eyes and not go to sleep
Did you notice the sunset the first time in ages
Speak with some stranger on the street
Did you lay down at night and think of tomorrow
Go out and buy you a gun
Did you turn off that violent old movie you're watching
And turn on "I Love Lucy" reruns
Did you go to a church and hold hands with some stranger
Stand in line and give your own blood
Did you just stay home and cling tight to your family
Thank God you had somebody to love

I'm just a singer of simple songs
I'm not a real political man
I watch CNN but I'm not sure I can tell you
The difference in Iraq and Iran
But I know Jesus and I talk to God
And I remember this from when I was young
Faith hope and love are some good things he gave us
And the greatest is love

I'm just a singer of simple songs
I'm not a real political man
I watch CNN but I'm not sure I can tell you
The difference in Iraq and Iran
But I know Jesus and I talk to God
And I remember this from when I was young
Faith hope and love are some good things he gave us
And the greatest is love

The greatest is love
The greatest is love

Where were you when the world stopped turning that September day

already do not like his music and attitude but there is a single eagle crying tears in heaven 4 the remainder of time @ eric klansman

I remember some people having a mild kerfuffle over Tim McGraw's "Indian Outlaw" but that obviously hasn't hurt his career.

Then there's this post 9/11 jam:

Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue
(Angry American)
Sung by Toby Keith

American girls and American guys
Will always stand up and salute
Will always recognize
When we see Old Glory flying
There's a lot of men dead
So we can sleep in peace at night
When we lay down our head

My Daddy served in the army
Where he lost his right eye
But he flew a flag out in our yard
Till the day that he died
He wanted my Mother, my Brother,
My Sister and me
To grow up and live happy
In the land of the free

Now this nation that I love
Is falling under attack
A mighty sucker punch came flying in
From somewhere in the back
As soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man we lit up your world
Like the Fourth of July

Chorus:
Hey, Uncle Sam put your name
At the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And it's going to be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And it will feel like the whole wide world
Is raining down on you
Brought to you courtesy
Of the Red, White and Blue

Oh, justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed
With the U.S. of A.
Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way

Hey, Uncle Sam put your name
At the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And it's going to be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And it will feel like the whole wide world
Is raining down on you
Brought to you courtesy
Of the Red, White and Blue
Of the Red, White and Blue
Of my Red, White and Blue

I dont detect any racisms in that toby keith song

we covered Ian MacKaye's "Guilty of Being White" on some other thread, but he's hardly a figure on the level of Clapton. Maybe Siouxsie Sioux.

there's plenty of execrable sentiments in modern country, but I think by and large they're pretty careful to appear enlightened/not racist. the stigma against being publicly and outwardly racist is pretty intense (as it should be)

As recently as 1998, Virginia's state song was "Carry Me Back to Old Virginny"

Carry me back to old Virginny.
There's where the cotton and corn and taters grow.
There's where the birds warble sweet in the spring-time.
There's where this old darkey's heart am long'd to go.

There's where I labored so hard for old Massa,
Day after day in the field of yellow corn;
No place on earth do I love more sincerely
Than old Virginny, the state where I was born.

Carry me back to old Virginny.
There's where the cotton and the corn and taters grow;
There's where the birds warble sweet in the spring-time.
There's where this old darkey's heart am long'd to go.

Carry me back to old Virginny,
There let me live till I wither and decay.
Long by the old Dismal Swamp have I wandered,
There's where this old darkey's life will pass away.

Massa and Missis have long since gone before me,
Soon we will meet on that bright and golden shore.
There we'll be happy and free from all sorrow,
There's where we'll meet and we'll never part no more.

Carry me back to old Virginny.
There's where the cotton and the corn and taters grow;
There's where the birds warble sweet in the spring-time.
There's where this old darkey's heart am long'd to go.

Outkast in redskin drag is pretty recent, but did generate some response.
Here's one that always baffled me.
There's a Motley Crue video where, for no apparent reason and unconnected with the actual song, the guys barge into a Chinese restaurant, grab a handful of food, eat it and then grimace and spit it out on the floor.
It was on MTV all the time in the 80s. How did that pass? Why the fuck would they go out of their way, in the limited time available in that video, to share their distaste for Chinese food? Yeah, I know they're boneheads, but still.....

Toby Keith and Old Virginny certainly did not pass under the radar.

That Courtesy of the Red White and Blue song has no racist lyrics in it, as far as I can see. Please clarify

It's not really racist to dislike Chinese food.

Here's the video

i bet motley crue likes hotdogs, they seem like the type

that extended Clapton quote isn't even the full thing either. It starts with:

Do we have any foreigners in the audience tonight? If so, please put up your hands. Wogs I mean, I'm looking at you. Where are you? I'm sorry but some fucking wog...Arab grabbed my wife's bum, you know? Surely got to be said, yeah this is what all the fucking foreigners and wogs over here are like, just disgusting, that's just the truth, yeah. So where are you? Well wherever you all are, I think you should all just leave. Not just leave the hall, leave our country. You fucking (indecipherable). I don't want you here, in the room or in my country. Listen to me, man! I think we should vote for Enoch Powell. Enoch's our man. I think Enoch's right, I think we should send them all back. Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out. Get the wogs out. Get the coons out. Keep Britain white.

class act all the way.

"new kids on the block had a bunch of hits
chinese food makes me sick"

Good, someone else remembers that vid.
Of course it's not racist to dislike Chinese food.
Don't you get some implied revulsion towards Chinese people in that?
Maybe I'm way off.........

wow, something to hate about Eric Clapton more than his guitar playing!

I'm not a big fan of oriental food in general, though I do like some other kinds of asian cuisine. I have no grievance with Asian people at all, Chinese or anyone else.

Even in the context of that track, still doesn't seem racist.

Wow, that sounded oddly defensive.

bret michaels (was he in crue or poison?) has diabetes but maybe also MSG sensitive?

he dislikes Michael Schenker Group?

surprised there's people here who hadn't heard about this Clapton outburst before, it's pretty legendary...

would've expected ol Eric to blame it on the booze n blow honestly

!.) Nikki Sixx sees food, almost takes a sample, but drops it to go follow his band.

2.) Returns from confrontation, remembers to take a bite this time.

3.) Opponent takes pause as opportunity to whack Sixx across the back of the head.

4.) Nikki Sixx wins confrontation. Returns to food. Turns out, it was nasty the whole time!

PUNCHLINE.

i think there are definite grey areas as to whether imitating an accent is a consistently racist thing or not. for instance, are ween racist for adopting a fake mexican accent in 'buenas tardis amigo'?

No, that's cool.
I might be overreacting.
That one scene just always seemed unnecessary and pissed me off.

--Other messages have been posted since you last looked... Please review and if you want to change your message, do so before posting.--

Oh dang. I missed that whole storyline. Thanks PP.

re: ween - I dunno, maybe. it is a caricature of/homage to mexican murder ballads. otoh it is a great piece of storytelling.

yeah, it's definitely a great song.

DJP: Wow, what a time to lose internet connection for an hour. First of all sorry for the ass/stick comment but I genuinely think we had crossed wires there. I am in total agreement that intent is not a mitigating factor.

Lots of people in the UK thought there was something fishy about Elvis Costello's use of the N word in Oliver's Army and were proved right by his unforgivable outburst against Ray Charles. (This and Clapton were motivating factors in the formation of the UK's Rock Against Facism organisation.) He has since gone on to claim that he was only trying to cause offence. This is mealy mouthed cuntery of the highest order. A cunt is very much a cunt, no matter what his retrospective weasel words are.

And to the poster above... you're wrong. Costello has turned his back on the UK. The press here don't take him seriously like they do in his adoptive homeland, America.

bret michaels (was he in crue or poison?) has diabetes but maybe also MSG sensitive?

― Philip Nunez, Friday, November 19, 2010 4:46 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha A+ tuomasing philip

surprised there's people here who hadn't heard about this Clapton outburst before, it's pretty legendary...

would've expected ol Eric to blame it on the booze n blow honestly

― you can sub out "bipartisan solutions" for "some of my dick" (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, November 19, 2010 4:47 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

i had never heard of it at all! i just thought he was shitty dad rock!

surprised there's people here who hadn't heard about this Clapton outburst before, it's pretty legendary...

would've expected ol Eric to blame it on the booze n blow honestly

― you can sub out "bipartisan solutions" for "some of my dick" (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, November 19, 2010 4:47 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

i had never heard of it at all! i just thought he was shitty dad rock!

surprised there's people here who hadn't heard about this Clapton outburst before, it's pretty legendary...

would've expected ol Eric to blame it on the booze n blow honestly

― you can sub out "bipartisan solutions" for "some of my dick" (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, November 19, 2010 4:47 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

i had never heard of it at all! i just thought he was shitty dad rock!

what in the hell

basically, i think imitating people's accents is precarious at best. i think that it can be a sensitive thing irrespective of what kind of accent you're talking about. i'm an australian, who has several years experience living abroad, and i'm confronted with a lot of smarmy types taking a dig at my accent. as a one-off it can be funny, just like all the fosters, crocodile dundee cliches etc., but if it's a regular thing it can become grating/ borderline offensive.

Shakey: I'm trying to think of any post-60s that even really got INTO one. an American making a speech similar to the one Clapton made would have been banned, picketed, boycotted, etc

What about Phil Anselmo. I mean, he's a pretty big deal in American metal circles.

And to the poster above... you're wrong. Costello has turned his back on the UK. The press here don't take him seriously like they do in his adoptive homeland, America

True now. I meant then. It did him some damage, but he remained generally a respectable figure, and producing the debut Specials LP - fr'instance - would have been problematic if he was widely perceived as a racist.

And it was Rock Against Racism, not Fascism (or even Facism)- and it predated Oliver's Army.

I know who Phil Anselmo is and know he has a reputation as being a jerk, but I'm not sure what you're referring to specifically

xp

Lots of people in the UK thought there was something fishy about Elvis Costello's use of the N word in Oliver's Army and were proved right by his unforgivable outburst against Ray Charles. (This and Clapton were motivating factors in the formation of the UK's Rock Against Facism organisation.) He has since gone on to claim that he was only trying to cause offence. This is mealy mouthed cuntery of the highest order. A cunt is very much a cunt, no matter what his retrospective weasel words are.

also not to be ~that guy~ but there's at least some irony in tip toeing around "the N word" and then dropping "the C word" like yr job. i mean obv there's a US/UK divide here, just sayin

ANYWAY

And Costello actually played at an RAR open air show at Brockwell Park in '78.

xp

In which case I'm getting my anti-fascist organisations mixed up, as he was an instigating factor in one of them. (AFL?)

GBX - I don't know what you're talking about.

the clapton stuff is astounding. amazed that i've never heard about this, though i've never given a shit about clapton, so maybe no surprise. but why hasn't this dogged him ever since? why don't people rub his face in this everywhere he goes? asshole's won grammys, for fuck's sake, been inducted into the rock 'n' roll hall of fame. boycott clapton.

shakey, ansemlmo is a racist piece of shit, flirts w/white power shit and made some really terrible rants during concerts, i think there's a thread on it.

yeah, anselmo's racism did kind of get swept under the rug from what i can tell. i mean, he's opened up about his heroin addiction along with his sketchy relationship with pantera members in recent interviews - why did all his pro-white rallying go unquestioned?

gbx means that "cunt" is wildy misogynist when used as generic denigratory slang

there is probably an actual way to spell "wildly"

There's more Anselmo shit here: racist dude in pantera

GBX: I've never used the word against a woman in my life.

um, that's like saying it's okay to use the n-word to describe white people you don't like

Did the Anthrax guys ever get serious shit about "Speak English or Die"?

xp: My redneck neighbor does that!

GBX: Ok, for the sake of pan-Atlantic relationships I'm going to stop using the, ah, c-word on here from now on.

I just wanted my position on Costello to be clear.

Contenderizer: is it fuck!

cunt has a pretty different connotation in the UK - or, at least, not as explicitly mysognystic as it is in other places. altho there's a whole other thread on THIS too iirc

also, young ignorant american here, but i always thought that costello's use of the word "nigger" in oliver's army was pretty intentionally sarcastic and used in a way that expanded on the way that yoko meant it ("nigger" standing in for "discriminated underclass"). not saying it was a smart, or wise, or inoffensive choice, just that i'd be hard pressed to read any "racism" into the lyrics---more of a face-palmy move

obv i could be totally totally wrong here

guys you're not seriously equating the c word with the n word

yeah, anselmo's racism did kind of get swept under the rug from what i can tell. i mean, he's opened up about his heroin addiction along with his sketchy relationship with pantera members in recent interviews - why did all his pro-white rallying go unquestioned?

― charlie h, Friday, November 19, 2010 5:09 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this MAY have something to do with pantera's audience (not to disparage peeps on the board that like them, i fucks with vulgar display myself)

whoah hella xposts, but contenderizer basically got it

xp no, LJ, we're not (i'm not), just noting that in a thread about various ppl's maybe-maybe-not racisms it's ironic to deploy a word that is maybe-maybe-not wildly offensive to decent chunk of 50% of ppl in non-UK countries

clapton did indeed blame his outburst on booze iirc

Shakey: It has NO misogynist connotations in the UK as it's nearly always directed at men. No one calls women c--ts here. Unlike, on say, the Sopranos.

Well, not no one, but no one I know, if you see what I mean.

Do they call a woman's vagina a cunt?

why does everyone get all crazy when comparisons are made? to compare one thing to another is not to say that they are precisely equivalent. it's often hyperbole used to make a point.

i'd be willing to argue that generic terms of denigration based on female gender or non-straight sexual orientation (bitch, pussy, cut, fag, etc.) are, in their way, just as bad as any racial slur, but this probably isn't the thread for it...

I've heard many women call men & women "cunts" here.

clapton did indeed blame his outburst on booze iirc

them what's his excuse now lol (see recent comments posted upthread)

yeah let's not xp

I'd never read the Clapton outburst until now, I knew he'd repped for Enoch Powell, but wow what a piece of work. I guess BB King must have been given a pass as he had the blues.

so ... how bout that Cocorosie?

clapton did indeed blame his outburst on booze iirc

― tylerw, Friday, November 19, 2010 5:14 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

fourloko strikes again :(

The C-word is used here almost exclusively against men. Half the time as a term of affection north of the M62...

I've apologized for any unitended distress caused by my uncouth language and said it won't happen again. Can we move on?

bun them clapton

gonna quietly note that some of the more hard-ass feminists I know use 'cunt' at everyone, male or female, and they'd see it as patronising if you refused to use it at a woman

but that involves divorcing the word from its anatomical sense entirely and using it purely phonetically as an expletive, which not everyone can do - so yeah I agree there has to be some sensitivity, when not in private company

OK NUFF LETS MOVE ON YES

I guess BB King must have been given a pass as he had the blues.

― State Attorney Foxhart Cubycheck (Billy Dods), Friday, November 19, 2010 5:17 PM (32 seconds ago) Bookmark

well as DJP alluded upthread, all kinds of racists idiots still blithely, thoughtless arrange ppl into "bad ones" and "oh no these guys are actually all right, they're not like the rest"

90% of the time against tories..

xps

anyway louis ck to thread

haha it is pretty patronizing not to call a woman a cunt imo

i think blaming a racist outburst on booze is an extremely convenient and piss-weak excuse. so you're an alcoholic racist douche instead of simply a racist douche? well then, all is forgiven.

Man, I can't win ;-)

Sorry. LOL, I meant.

dude LOL means cunt in america...poor form

Aiiieeeeee.

i have zero problem with the word cunt.

Anyway, 'Dreadlock Holiday' by 10cc

EXCELSIOR, it'll pass you by, in the wink of a young girl's LOL

we're gonna have to change a lot of thread titles :-/

basically, i think imitating people's accents is precarious at best. i think that it can be a sensitive thing irrespective of what kind of accent you're talking about. i'm an australian, who has several years experience living abroad, and i'm confronted with a lot of smarmy types taking a dig at my accent. as a one-off it can be funny, just like all the fosters, crocodile dundee cliches etc., but if it's a regular thing it can become grating/ borderline offensive.

― charlie h, Friday, November 19, 2010 6:03 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark

croikey! ahehehehe

hahah never had that one before.

ROFLCO

In which case I'm getting my anti-fascist organisations mixed up, as he was an instigating factor in one of them. (AFL?)

Otherwise the ANL? (Anti-Nazi League)

The ANL was much more broadly based campaign against the NF and the BNP and the like - not particularly concerned with music, more with taking on 'the fash' as they used to say, on the streets.

ROFLMCO, I should have said.

Context: Duran Duran '911 Is A Joke'

haha what?

I find the idea that some white British millionaire who owns several yachts complaining that the emergency services spend too long getting to his house in an emergency because he lives in a poor, black neighbourhood offensive and I'm not even black.

i don't even know whats happening anymore

He probably didn't *intend* to be offensive but like it's been said upthread, that's not really at issue.

are you talking about public enemy? what is going on?

natives getting restless imo

Have you never heard the Duran cover?!

It's like the low point of all western culture.

for a minute there I thought we were discussing how long it took the ambulance to arrive at Clapton's mansion when his son died

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k_BgzSDQNk

what the shit. haha i didn't know about that.

public enemy should have covered "the chauffeur" as payback

oh fuck me gently with a chainsaw heather, this is worse than it sounds on paper!

je refuse

"public enemy should have covered "the chauffeur" as payback"

That could be pretty awesome thinking about it...

yeah, really

as for this song, :(

just wait til you hear the entire album

Yeah, it makes Beck sound like Gil Scott Heron right?

lol such a terrible Beck impersonation

haha xp

just wait til you hear the entire album

fwiw I have - my wife bought it when it came out cuz of the White Lines cover

I like to think of Duran practising 'Sound Of Da Police' before Nick Rhodes goes, "You know chaps, I fear we may have gone too far..."

They sound like contemporary christian rap. Or Fun Lovin' Criminals.

Is it normal for people to start threads and then never say anything in them? Why do I keep seeing this happen?

blame steorn

That duran duran covers album is bafflingly bad.

I can remember reading many times over the years, in the NME etc, criticism of Elvis Costello for that shitty diss on ray charles. guy wrote some decent tunes, and had a good band, but he always struck me as an asshole, and it always kind of put me off him.

Pashmina, off-topic, but there was this huge sign at a store near my office this week that read "FREE PASHMINA if you buy something something", and I was like damn, I didn't even know they got the dude. Fight the power.

fwiw kelpolaris did go on to say RADAR! RADAR! With an A.

WaSN'T THERE SOME DUMB G&R SONG THAT THEY GOT AWAY W BECAUSE(oops caps off) waxl was all like "i was playing a character" and ppl were like "oh that's just axl" or wtfe, I can't even remember it was so long ago. It didn't seem to harm g&r's career anyway.

I hope you bought something something then kkvgz! I was in Prudhoe, Northumberland, UK a few months ago, and a 4x4 drove past me and on the spare wheel cover, no shit, was the word "sarahel", it freaked me out a bit, I can tell you.

g&r's entire post-appetite career consists of harms to g&r's career

that duran duran cover sounds v strongly like primal scream

Okay, definitely not clicking on it now.

Was well up for it before you said that.

Yeah, the only reason that they may have "got away" with the racism on "One in a Million" is that it sold significantly less than their other albums.

i dunno, it had "patience" on it, every kid i knew owned it...

G N' R Lies, also known as Lies, is the second album by the band Guns N' Roses, released in 1988. According to the RIAA, the EP has sold over five million copies only in the United States.[1]

And appetite has sold 18 million.

But yeah, you're right. It's not like it was exactly an indie release.

Didn't exactly fly under the radar either.

clapton did indeed blame his outburst on booze iirc

― tylerw, Friday, November 19, 2010 5:14 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wikipedia enlightening as usual:

'In his 2007 autobiography, Clapton wrote "when I listened to music, I was disinterested in where the players came from or what colour their skin was. Interesting, then, that 10 years later, I would be labelled a racist.."'

yes eric, very interesting you'd be labelled a racist after giving a 'throw the wogs out' speech.

'In a December 2007 interview with Melvin Bragg on The South Bank Show, Clapton reiterated his support for Enoch Powell and again denied that Powell's views were "racist".'

I remember occasionally hearing old people, usually from a generation who are mostly dead, agreeing w/Powell's "rivers of blood" speech, and denying that it was racist. IIRC the reason given was that Powell was supposed to be worried that non-white ppl in the UK were in danger of having violent acts perpetrated against them by "native" ie white ppl in the UK. Pretty dumm I guess, though Powell was v clever at twisty rhetoric, one of the reasons he was so dangerous in his day. Clapton is depressing, taking your musical inspiration from black musicians, then espousing racist politics, even taking into account the "you're all right, al those others are bad" thing mentioned upthread, is just nonsensical. I guess the guy is just a moron. I guess I'll stick my head up and say that I thought cream were awesome, and that John Mayall album with clapton reading the beano comic on the cover is pretty great too, but at the risk of appearing stereotypically "politically correct" I never listen to them, because of Claptons idiotic beliefs.

Didn't exactly fly under the radar either.

true enough I guess, but then neither did Elvis Costello's or or Eric Clapton's.

racist, "pro-white" politics, I meant to say.

Maybe I missed it somewhere up in that, but "Walk On the Wild Side" to thread?

Is it normal for people to start threads and then never say anything in them? Why do I keep seeing this happen?

― I will always think of you, while (quite) fondly, myself (Evan), Friday, 19 November 2010 23:54 (Yesterday) Permalink

There's a shocking possibility that I have nothing else to contribute.

About Costello's remarks in Columbus: It is obvious to me that his (drunken) motive was to say something as offensive as possible to irritate and wind up the Americans. (Franklin Bruno's 33 1/3 Armed Forces book is excellent on the issue, as well as Clapton's ugliness.) Just look at the record, i.e., everything else he has ever expressed, recorded, valued, and celebrated. This is a guy who reveres Ray Charles, for Christ's sake. Along with a hundred other black American geniuses. And "white nigger" in "Oliver's Army" is of the Newman/Lennon ironic variety, not a fucking slur. Costello is the guy who wrote the brilliant anti-NF song "Night Rally", remember? Everyone's got to give this stupid charge a rest.

his "racism" may well have been overstated, but it stands as a strikingly stupid and offensive thing to have said. he fully deserves whatever he gets for it.

xpost

Ok, actually, I do (sort of)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-SfiiSoGc0
The lyrics to this are totally, totally harmless but fast-forward a little bit and in the visuals is what I take to have biggest semblance to a Chinaman... paired with the clearly oriental beat, I'd think a little of this was intentional... at least on the stage-dev's department.

Doesn't entirely bother me all too much though, aside that from it kinda spooks me how much it reminds me how much the whole thing looks like it'd go perfect in Orwell's 1984 universe, like a free concert for the proles before a declaration of war against Eastasia was signed.

the day i bought silent shout, i played it while driving to pittsburgh with some friends (i'd already listened to it a couple times by myself). everybody was digging the hell out of the first couple tracks, but when we got to "the captain", vibes got weird. i hadn't previously considered the idea, but suddenly knew what was coming. a good friend, who is chinese, was bummed by the childlike, cod "oriental" vocal affections. i tried to defend the song/band, saying that wasn't really the intent, but suspected that she was right. haven't since been able to listen to that song in quite the same way, though i still love the record, the band, fever ray, etc.

hardly blatant or even racist, but weird, you know?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNGexMkG82Y

I don't think the gong and the da-na-na-na na-na chimes were in the original TV soundtrack.

Speaking of the Axl Rose "I was just playing a character" defense, what about Randy Newman? I'm sure some people would find songs like "Sail Away," "Rednecks," "Half a Man" and "Christmas in Capetown" indefensible, even in light of his body of work where prejudice has always been a major theme. You can make an argument for his narrators speaking the way real people speak (the Mark Twain defense?), and how it's part of the sad satire of his lyrics, but for some, the use of racist language or narrators trumps the writer's intent.

(I remember an interview with Newman where he was asked about the intent of the song "Mr. Sheep," in which the narrator bullies a businessman on the street--Newman had to insist that the lyric wasn't taking an easy shot at a sheep-like office drone, but was instead meant to show what a jerk the narrator was. Looking at the lyric on the page, you'd be forgiven for not making that interpretation--it comes out more in the vocal performance. Remember that even the obviously satirical "Short People" caused a bit of a controversy among a humorless few.)

Even in this thread, you can see a fuzzy line that people will or won't cross depending on the situation. For instance, is it always racist to imitate a foreign accent? In Charlie H's example, where's the line when the fake Australian accents cross from smarmy to stupid, boring, tin-eared or racist? You'd have to examine each person's intent (though realistically, after hearing it for the twentieth time, I'd want them all to fuck off too).

regardless of intent, i always figured (as a not-short person) that the popularity of "short people" had to be crushingly brutal if you DID happen to be a short person. empathy not exactly newman's strong suit.

Well, RNewman's done it so often, "Roll with the punches" etc, people gonna know it's a 'part'. Whereas nobody really thinks Axl isn't who he says he is on records.

Also, as a father of a 'ginger' girl child, I never thought it appropriate to even watch that MIA video. Amber finds all that "ginger" prejudice amusing, she's a pretty girl and it works for her, so hey.

Still, from the little I've seen of MIA's vid, I think the 'joke'/'message' is a step too far.

What would be a phrase now "we don't know any better" that will show up on a thread like this in 30 years?

A lot of terms used to describe women and gay people in rap lyrics.

Many xposts - Doran, you've got your dates muddled. RAR and the ANL both pre-dated Costello's Ray Charles comment - Costello played for RAR and produced the Specials (he even produced Free Nelson Mandela ffs) and was not considered a racist in the UK - it was the US where his comments derailed his career. You may not like him but facts matter.

On the subject of Clapton, I spent a long time trying to find an authoritative source for the YouTube reconstruction quoted in the Wikipedia page, and those words are not in the sources it cites, eg J Street's book. He definitely did praise Enoch Powell and complain about Britain being overrun by immigrants, so the gist is true, but I wonder if the language has been embellished in the retelling.

Re: Randy Newman (and Oliver's Army), this recent thread deals with lyrics which use the N-word in a satirical context or, at worst, a crassly insensitive one - I don't think these examples belong on a thread about "blatantly racist" songs.

White musicians and "artistic" use of the N-word: A Discussion and Social History

And re: Enoch, I've never known what to make of this lyric in John Cale's Graham Greene:

"According to the latest score
Mr. Enoch Powell is falling star
So in future please bear in mind
Don't see clear don't see far"

^^^^

Mr. Enoch Powell is appalling, sir ?

That's what I always heard...

DL: Fair enough about RAR but my main point about no one considering Costello a racist in the UK is just plain wrong. I do, my mates do, I refuse to accept that we're the only ones. (And a quick google, makes me right.)

I should have remembered about RAR as I remember reading in an article that it was set up in direct response to Clapton.

Also this doesn't mean that much: Costello played for RAR and produced the Specials (he even produced Free Nelson Mandela ffs)

Clapton clearly has genuine heartfelt love for black musicians and black music but he is also clearly and definably racist scum.

Have you ever met Jerry Dammers? He's as militantly anti-racist as they come, and spiky in the extreme. If he considered Costello racist there's no way he'd have worked with him. I'm not talking about you and your friends (or me and mine) but his fellow musicians and the general public. It's about looking at the broader picture - nothing else he has ever done suggests any racism, whereas Clapton continued to push his support for Powell for decades afterwards. Context is vital.

Ok, fair point. And yes, I have met him.

My picture of Costello was one of someone who had been inadvertently racist in the past by presuming too much kinship with black people that allowed him to talk like this until he came spectacularly unstuck. You can see modern equivalents of this... Westwood interviewing Kris/KRS1 perhaps?

There are loads of example of this in music journalism itself. There are some Lester Bangs pieces that painfully illustrate this (with full self awareness).

Reading back issues of Melody Maker and NME from the 60s and 70s can be very bracing indeed.

Westwood interviewing Kris/KRS1 .. w'hap?

i know it was addressed way up thread, but didn't the Kinks also play Sun City back in the apartheid era? and catch some flak for it?!? that and "black messiah" are splotches on their reputation, unfortunately.

also, i'm not gonna go surfing through this thread to see if anyone called out Morrissey for his more questionable lyrics/songs ("bengali in platforms" being the most obvious offender here).

xpost Ha, yes, bracing indeed. I came across a 1975 NME review of the Equals headlined "Support Your Local Spades".

My take on Costello at that moment is that he was just a prick who would use racist language that he didn't even believe in order to wind people up, so I'm not saying he emerges covered in glory, just that he was more arsehole than racist imo.

anyway, "flying under the radar" implies kinda furtive as opposed to pretty blatant racist lyrics. so the kinks' "apeman" (with ray davies's silly pseudo-Caribbean accent) or the smiths' "panic" would be more under-the-radar (if indeed either song IS really racist) than either "black messiah" or "bengali in platforms" (where the bigotry is pretty much out in the open).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiu11ovUeDM

For the record, I've got a lot of time for Westwood but... this was bound to happen sooner or later and you can't blame KRSOne really can you?

That pseudo- Caribbean accent was a staple in Brit-rock for a while: Ob-La-Di, Dreadlock Holiday....there's a particularly horrendous example on a Blodwyn Pig album I have somewhere, but since they were fairly under the radar anyway....What was more invidious was the way white British rock bands saw reggae as 'novelty music', to be used in the same way as the 'music hall' colourings that were also a staple. And of course, they were always (wrongly0 confident that they could play it.

Re: the Equals headline above - if you read CSM 'From the Hip' collection, the stunning ease with which racial epithets sprung from the hipster lip then is astounding. Bangs was the same, of course, but recanted honestly and completely.

"Dreadlock Holiday" is pretty fuckin racist. Meant to add it last night.

If it hasn't been mentioned yet....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqITI8ZwR-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH2P_pVze6s

There's a reprehensible Python track on one of the Secret Policeman's Ball live albums. They, of course, claimed it was ironic, or something, but you only have to hear the audience response to know they were playing to the gallery.

Yeah, but so much of that "cutting edge" footlights/Python/Goodies etc was very "lol gayz" which embarrases them all in retrospect.

elvis also called james brown the n-word according to wiki...also bonnie bramlett rules fuk u elvis...

i really don't buy the "i was trying to offend these hippies" thing either....using powerful words that have really caused pain to ppl that have been oppressed it was you can't imagine as a "tool" in an argument or to be edgy is just as insincere assholish and racist as anything...

wrt to axl: i dunno, i think axl lives pretty close to the bone, i don't think he was playing a role at all..i think he was going back to being a fucked up angry kid from shithole midwest and feeling like an alien in L.A. and scared and lashing out....i think those were his ugly feelings and i don't think he can hide behind a "character" thing...did he try to hide behind that bullshit?

though...in some ways i almost think the elvis costello/patti smith/randy newman shit is worse is some way, there's a sense of smug entitlement to it "listen guys we all know i'm super smart and important so i can't be racist, dig?"....i dunno i might not be expresing it right tho

Costello's standing in the U.S. was bruised for a time when in March 1979, during a drunken argument with Stephen Stills and Bonnie Bramlett in a Columbus, Ohio Holiday Inn bar, the singer referred to James Brown as a "jive-ass nigger", then upped the ante by pronouncing Ray Charles a "blind, ignorant, nigger".[12][13] Costello apologised at a New York City press conference a few days later, claiming that he had been drunk and had been attempting to be obnoxious in order to bring the conversation to a swift conclusion, not anticipating that Bramlett would bring his comments to the press. According to Costello, "it became necessary for me to outrage these people with about the most obnoxious and offensive remarks that I could muster." In his liner notes for the expanded version of Get Happy!!, Costello writes that some time after the incident he had declined an offer to meet Charles out of guilt and embarrassment, though Charles himself had forgiven Costello saying "Drunken talk isn't meant to be printed in the paper." Costello worked extensively in Britain's Rock Against Racism campaign both before and after the incident. The incident inspired his Get Happy!! song "Riot Act."[14]

wish i could find the video for genesis' "illegal alien"

Clapton clearly has genuine heartfelt love for black musicians and black music but he is also clearly and definably racist scum.

Clapton's hatred seems to be directed more towards Asians than towards Africans. Not that it makes it any better.
But has he confirmed his views from back then, ever distanced himself from them? Or ignored them? (the latter is bad enough in itself)

That pseudo- Caribbean accent was a staple in Brit-rock for a while: Ob-La-Di, Dreadlock Holiday....

There was a popular Northern Norwegian 80s band called Banana Airlines who sort of specialized in "rapping" in some sort of broken Norwegian, sounding like the kind of Norwegian immigrants tend to speak when they haven't learned to pronounce the language fluently. To make matters worse, their lyrics were crowded with references to the Sami minority who have lived in Northern Norway for ages, portraying them as drunken, lazy etc.

the day i bought silent shout, i played it while driving to pittsburgh with some friends (i'd already listened to it a couple times by myself). everybody was digging the hell out of the first couple tracks, but when we got to "the captain", vibes got weird. i hadn't previously considered the idea, but suddenly knew what was coming. a good friend, who is chinese, was bummed by the childlike, cod "oriental" vocal affections. i tried to defend the song/band, saying that wasn't really the intent, but suspected that she was right. haven't since been able to listen to that song in quite the same way, though i still love the record, the band, fever ray, etc.

I never even thought that first listening, I thought it was her just trying to sound a little creepier than usual whilst employing her Svedish accent. Call me a fool but I always find a minority in a group of whites tend to find racial insensitivity where there is none.

As mentioned above, Franklin Bruno's 33-1/3 book on "Armed Forces" does a great job of digging under the dirt of the whole Costello incident, and points out quite rightly that it was just as patronizing/wrong/whatever for Bonnie Bramlett, a white woman, to go running to the press as if she were the aggrieved party; and that she was no more or less entitled to claim kinship with black music and musicians than Costello is. As white people, they're both tourists in blues and soul music.

Hmm, then what does that make us (mostly) white folks who keep bringing it up 30 years later?

I mean, if I was in a bar with Ted Leo or Miley Cyrus and they started saying crazy racist shit, even just to get a rise, I'd probably go public with it too.

Can't believe Randy Newman's been lumped in with this lot. Does anybody anywhere really think "Sail Away" is heartfelt sincere rather than a character study? Kevin Bacon playing a paedo != Kevin Bacon is a paedo.

What about if Jeffrey Jones is playing one?

i know it was addressed way up thread, but didn't the Kinks also play Sun City back in the apartheid era? and catch some flak for it?!? that and "black messiah" are splotches on their reputation, unfortunately.

Robert Christgau claimed this to be the case, but the only documentation I've seen is in Christgau's 80's book: "Ray Davies--not the other Kinks--remains on the entertainers register of the U.N. Centre Against Apartheid. He's such a contrary chappy that he probably likes it there." A friend met Dave Davies at a book signing some years ago, and Dave strenuously denied that the Kinks ever played Sun City. The only explanation anyone was able to come up with was that there was supposedly an "R. Davies" (or, I've also heard, a "Ron Davies") on the UN register. To get off the register, musicians had to make a public apology and vow never to play Sun City again (something the O'Jays did and which Linda Ronstadt refused to do -- she went back more than once). I haven't seen anything to indicate that the other Kinks made any such apologies that Ray refused to go along with. No mention of the Kinks is made in the Artists United Against Apartheid Sun City book, which calls out many other artists (Julio Iglesias, Queen, Sinatra, Tina Turner, Ray Charles).

^^^^
There's Ray Davies and his Button Down Brass, charity shop staples....? could he/ they be the offending artist?

...Franklin Bruno's 33-1/3 book on "Armed Forces" does a great job of digging under the dirt of the whole Costello incident, and points out quite rightly that it was just as patronizing/wrong/whatever for Bonnie Bramlett, a white woman, to go running to the press as if she were the aggrieved party...

hogwash. ridiculous to blame the messenger. costello said something foul, and one of the people he said it to told the press, which she had every right to do. people should be called out when they say things like this, and if publicly, then publicly.

I wouldn't say the Cellos' "Rang Tang Ding Dong (I Am the Japanese Sandman)" (my favorite song from the '50s) is racist, but it definitely opens with a mortifying stereotype of its day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKHWUzsvrG8

I'd like to play it over my school's P.A. one morning, but wouldn't dare.

A compilation filled with such stuff:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Pf8Sto3fvMg/SiEfuMcQYTI/AAAAAAAACYY/wQ-0PShQPtI/s400/My+Chinese+Girl+-+(Front).jpg

Warren Smith's "Ubangi Stomp," the Cadets' (and New York Dolls') "Stranded in the Jungle"...you could probably spend an hour or two listing stuff from the '50s, if you really knew the terrain.

Is that the same "Ubangi Stomp" that the Stray Cats did on their first (?) album? Presumably.

They did "Storm the Embassy" too! Can't remember exactly how racist that is.

I'm sure the Stray Cats song would be the same. Just remembered the Cramps' "Jungle Hop" and "The Natives Are Restless," and I bet they had others, too, either covers or their own. But as I'm sure has been pointed out upthread, infantile insensitivity and racism are not, to me, one and the same.

I'm second-guessing my own distinction...Probably Rush Limbaugh fans make the same defense for him that I'm making for the Cellos. It's impossible to read minds, so you sort of go with your instincts as to what's behind the words and funny voices.

america in the 50s was racist as hell (still is), but i think it's mostly naivete that's behind songs like "rang tang ding dong" and "jungle hop".

I don't think relegating entire cultures to high-pitched-voice caricatures and accents and stereotypes can really be grouped in the comfortable "naivete" box

though...in some ways i almost think the elvis costello/patti smith/randy newman shit is worse is some way, there's a sense of smug entitlement to it "listen guys we all know i'm super smart and important so i can't be racist, dig?"....i dunno i might not be expresing it right tho

But in this situation, I don't think it's racism that's bothering you, it's the smug entitlement you're reading into it. And I don't really agree with that--I don't have a problem with white liberal artists dealing with race issues. My objections would be more likely to come up if I disagreed with their message (or I just thought it was bad art). Anyway, if artists can't push at boundries and sometimes come up wrong, who can?

And I'm usually willing to accept the "those were different times" argument. There was a time in the '70s, as the white world began to understand and address our ingrained racism, where the "N" word hadn't yet become The "N" Word of today. Following the lead of black writers, musicians, comedians, etc., in trying to reclaim and defuse the word "nigger," people like Randy Newman, Patti Smith and George Carlin took advantage of that cusp when definitions, restrictions and attitudes were changing. Sure, the same lyrics written now would be received with much more criticism, but in the context of the time period, as racial thought was going through a major evolution, I think these white artists were justified in trying to find new ways of dealing with the subject. In the years to follow the word didn't get defused, but that doesn't invalidate the work that came beforehand.

Can't believe Randy Newman's been lumped in with this lot. Does anybody anywhere really think "Sail Away" is heartfelt sincere rather than a character study?

But remember, there was a minor furor over "Short People." There's always somebody to find offense when you get into touchy topics. I brought up Newman not to claim racism but as an example of how context matters.

i guess that brings up the issue -- that you can kinda view the "stereotypical Chinese/East Asian melody" through - of whether it is "ok" to sample/cover/allude to that earlier naive sensibility (e.g. Jungle Hop) in contemporary times when we "know better"?

I don't think relegating entire cultures to high-pitched-voice caricatures and accents and stereotypes can really be grouped in the comfortable "naivete" box

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:12 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

i think that all cultures tend to view other cultures as "strange" when they first encounter them, that this exoticizing tendency is "natural" (if you will) and exists in every human culture, to some degree or another. it is only recently that we've come to understand that this kind of thing can be problematic, so yes, i do describe historical examples of this sort of thing as naive and even innocent -- to the extent that they aren't explicitly denigratory/xenophobic, or tied directly to oppression (like "mammy" and "sambo" type caricatures of african americans in the US).

i think that all cultures tend to view other cultures as "strange" when they first encounter them, that this exoticizing tendency is "natural" (if you will) and exists in every human culture, to some degree or another.

Don't think any of those things are givens of "human nature" tbh

This also leads to the common argument about power and powerlessness, and whether or not it was even possible for the Cellos (a black doo-wop group) to be racist in 1957--an argument I have neither the inclination nor stamina to pursue.

xp - Noodle, can you give a historical example of that not being the case?

xpost

I don't think relegating entire cultures to high-pitched-voice caricatures and accents and stereotypes can really be grouped in the comfortable "naivete" box

But you can take that argument too far. While I don't see any argument that could ever justify slavery, I don't think you can fairly say something like "How could those people in 1600 be so unenlightened as to think slavery was OK?" Societies evolve, and there was a time when people wouldn't have been able to conceive of questioning the rightness or wrongness of slavery.

So I can't bring myself to get all upset over the very existence of Al Jolson in blackface or Charlie Chan movies with white actors in the lead. You can (and should) discuss and judge those attitudes in hindsight, but they make the original work invalid.

Don't think any of those things are givens of "human nature" tbh

well, "human nature" is all but impossible to define, therefore difficult (perhaps even pointless) to discuss. that's why i was begging for indulgence in bringing it up in the first place. that said, i do think the tendency to exoticize and even to mock "the other" is so common in human history as to be all but omnipresent. every culture seems to parody the accents, manners and behaviors of those that seem different, and it's only recently that we've come to see anything troubling in this.

yeah I'm not gonna get into it with you I just think "rang tang ding dong" is racist crap no matter how you spin it is all

Societies evolve, and there was a time when people wouldn't have been able to conceive of questioning the rightness or wrongness of slavery.

really? so why didn't the English, the French, or the Germans keep slaves? everybody in the whole damn world knew slavery was bullshit.

Noodle, can you give a historical example of that not being the case?

I can't, offhand, but my problem is that I don't think contenderizer can produce sufficient examples of it always being the case either. In general terms, weren't a lot of indigenous peoples that got fucked over by European colonialism rather too trusting and friendly towards their new friends?

A limited quantity of English kept slaves in the UK I think. Certainly a lot of guys in the colonies with slaves were essentially English anyway.

yeah I'm in over my head on this subject so should stfu but "there was a time when people wouldn't have been able to conceive of questioning the rightness or wrongness of slavery" is historically untrue I think - opposition to slavery goes back a long way iirc & cutting people historical slack is ok as far as it goes but the idea that Americans in the 60s can be given a pass for crap like "rang tang ding dong" is a little much for me

Well yeah obviously the anti-slavery movement in the UK was running thru most of the 18th century and I seem to recall that there was much debate about whether slavery could be legal in the UK, with most of the authorities saying "no"? But even a guy like Wilberforce was anti-slavery for slightly abstract God-bothering reasons more than that he actually wanted some black guys to come and live next door to his cute house on High Street, Hull.

not to digress, but weren't Haiti, Martinique and Guadaloupe (French colonies all) also slave colonies?!?

In general terms, weren't a lot of indigenous peoples that got fucked over by European colonialism rather too trusting and friendly towards their new friends?

― a ticker tape of "must not fuck up" (Noodle Vague), Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:40 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

sure, but that doesn't suggest they didn't make jokes, among themselves, about the clothes, habits and speech of their new friends, at least at first. there's no record, so no way to say for sure, but i suspect they did, at least on occasion.

slavery is a very different issue, where "otherness" is not just mocked, but dehumanized. suppose you could say that it's a sliding scale, but the difference of degree is so profound to make it, in effect, a difference in kind.

I just always wanna suspect those grand totalizing statements I suppose and consider it entirely possible that some societies or cultures are more racist than others.

^ yeah, with you on that. if someone else had made the statement i did, i'd have raised the same objection as you. otoh, i don't see much evidence that any human culture lacks the tendency to exoticize/mock perceived others. i mean, it's a strong tendency in most human beings, regardless of culture, in ways that go well beyond race. we cartoon & mock class, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, styles of dress, appearance, wealth, level of education, religion, etc. it's a product, i think of they way in which we understand the world: via simplification & objectification. we see things, for the most part, not as utterly unique instances, but as members of this or that category of things, and we make a lot of assumptions on a categorical level. this is efficient, but also reductive.

pattern-making

I just think "rang tang ding dong" is racist crap

If you want to call it racist, fine; don't agree, but it's a fair charge. If by crap you mean it's value as a record, that I will argue--it's an amazing song. I love lots of art that's not exactly morally uplifting.

sarahel otm. a neat encapsulation of what i was struggling to get across.

costello said something foul, and one of the people he said it to told the press, which she had every right to do. people should be called out when they say things like this, and if publicly, then publicly.

But what did it Bramlett running to a friend at Rolling Stone accomplish for anyone involved? Did it have any affect on Costello's music, which had not and never has shown any strain of racism in it? Did Bramlett get anything out of it except appearing publicly as a champion of black music?

I can tell you two people for whom it accomplished exactly, precisely nothing: Ray Charles and James Brown, both of whom were dragged into a (probably painful) public fight that, had Bramlett not opened her mouth, they'd probably never have heard of it.

Did anybody mention Rolf Harris's "Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport" yet? Pretty sure it's the only Top 10 pop single in the U.S. ever to mention indigenous Australian slaves, much less put them in the same light (given the other verses surrounding them) as wallabies, kangaroos, cockatoos, koalas, and playtypi owned by the singer. Or at least that's what I assume that's what this verse is doing:

Let me abos go loose, Lew
Let me abos go loose
They're of no further use, Lew
So let me abos go loose
Altogether now!

May be less unique in the Aussie Top 10 from back then; I'm not sure.

Also, Pat Boone's "Speedy Gonzales," if nobody's named it. (This thread is hard to search, thanks to all the youtube clips.)

ANd I don't want to come off as Cap'n Save A Racist here, because I'm not, but in a thread about racist SONGS, I can't think of a single one of Costello's songs that qualify, and I don't think the Bramlett incident, however it was handled, is indicative of some virulous strain of racism in the man.

He uses the phrase "white nigger" in "Oliver's Army," right? (Not that that's necessarily racist; I'm just saying. To his credit, he definitely did a couple anti-National Front numbers back in his new wave days.)

ppl aren't bringing up newman because of short ppl or sail away.
and i get this is a "character" song but there's something kind of creepy about it IMO, like it's a good way to take so much glee in getting to drop the n-word but get you hide behind the "i am only acting" tihng..i dunno

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Rednecks Lyrics
Artist: Randy Newman (Buy Randy Newman CDs)
Album: Good Old Boys

Send "Rednecks" Ringtone to your Cell

Last night I saw Lester Maddox on a TV show
With some smart ass New York Jew
And the Jew laughed at Lester Maddox
And the audience laughed at Lester Maddox too
Well he may be a fool but he's our fool
If they think they're better than him they're wrong
So I went to the park and I took some paper along
And that's where I made this song

We talk real funny down here
We drink too much and we laugh too loud
We're too dumb to make it in no Northern town
And we're keepin' the niggers down

We got no-necked oilmen from Texas
And good ol' boys from Tennessee
And colleges men from LSU
Went in dumb. Come out dumb too
Hustlin' 'round Atlanta in their alligator shoes
Gettin' drunk every weekend at the barbecues
And they're keepin' the niggers down

CHORUS
We're rednecks, rednecks
And we don't know our ass from a hole in the ground
We're rednecks, we're rednecks
And we're keeping the niggers down

Now your northern nigger's a Negro
You see he's got his dignity
Down here we're too ignorant to realize
That the North has set the nigger free

Yes he's free to be put in a cage
In Harlem in New York City
And he's free to be put in a cage on the South-Side of Chicago
And the West-Side
And he's free to be put in a cage in Hough in Cleveland
And he's free to be put in a cage in East St. Louis
And he's free to be put in a cage in Fillmore in San Francisco
And he's free to be put in a cage in Roxbury in Boston
They're gatherin' 'em up from miles around
Keepin' the niggers down

CHORUS

OT, but I've always loved the first verse of that song, because it's such an eternal political truth - 'he may be a fool but he's OUR fool' is how half the Dail (Irish Parliament) gets elected; to our cost, obv.

Carry on.

i've made the same argument about rednecks - that the song may be well intentioned, but newman nonetheless seems to relish the transgressive thrill of the "forbidden" language in a way that troubles me. don't think this makes it racist, merely complex and unpleasant.

...and I don't think the Bramlett incident, however it was handled, is indicative of some virulous strain of racism in the man.

― Tub Girl Time Machine (Phil D.), Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:13 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

agree entirely. but i dislike the suggestion that bramlett was wrong to repeat the story. should the officers who arrested mel gibson have kept mum about his outburst? their report didn't really accomplish anything for anyone involved, either...

You know, as a Southerner, I'm kinda offended by that song.

At least Neil Young sang "Southern Man" in his own voice.

I read it as Newman at least partly parodying attitudes toward southerners but multiple layers of irony is a v. dangerous game to play.

The other day a classmate of mine insisted that Ian Curtis was an anti-semite. Aside from obvious nazi references (Joy Division & Warsaw) I could not piece together how this could possibly contain any ounce of truth. Google didn't help either, all I found was "Iggy Pop rulz...Bush is a nazi...Bernard Sumner has great hair". Any help?

yeah, i've never heard the song but just reading the lyrics would suggest that he's definitely parodying northern attitudes towards southerners. i mean ffs just look at the last verse

xp - Bernard Sumner really does have great hair imo

The other day a classmate of mine insisted that Ian Curtis was an anti-semite. Aside from obvious nazi references (Joy Division & Warsaw) I could not piece together how this could possibly contain any ounce of truth. Google didn't help either, all I found was "Iggy Pop rulz...Bush is a nazi...Bernard Sumner has great hair". Any help?

IIRC the early demo of "new dawn fades" contains the lyric "different colors, different shades/over each, mistakes were made/lol I am totally a nazi" but what exactly Curtis meant by this is unclear

I've never gotten how calling themselves Joy Division was really an endorsement of Hitler either tbf.

xpost lol

Maybe in the same way that "We Are All Prostitutes" is the Pop Group's way of bigging up the pimp lifestyle.

Sorry guys. Burning my Toy Story soundtracks as we speak.

I've never gotten how calling themselves Joy Division was really an endorsement of Hitler either tbf.

again history has kind of smoothed over the sordid truth here - rejected title for Unknown Pleasures was We Hereby Formally Endorse Hitler, LMAO & several Italian pressings of the first run actually bear this title on the spine

i ranted about randy newman for way too long on that n-word ian mackaye cocorosie whatever thread that went on for days. i won't do it here too. kinda hate the randy. LOVE will sasso though.

re randy newman: in spite of my reservations, i feel obliged to say that "rednecks" is brilliant, brave and mostly OTM. that last verse especially. newman's artistic persona can be extremely cruel, and he seems to take a swaggering delight in the license his own 70s hipster bravery grants his. those qualities bother me, but i have to give credit where it's due. amazing song.

dead groove on that joy division pressing has *WOULD SLAM EVA B. CLAPTON IS GOD* etched on it.

x-post

For 2 seconds there I thought Eva B. Clapton was Eric's wife.

Warsaw was actually an acronym for We Are Really Semite Abhorring Whee!

Yeah, the Rolf Harris thing is pretty much indefensible. Which is why he doesn't try. He expressed regret and has consistently ommitted that verse of "Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport" since a couple of years after its release.

hee hee W.A.R.S.A.W!

according to most sources Still is a shortened compromise on Curtis's final request i.e. that the next album be called Still Firm In Our Support for a National Socialist Britain

waiting for the day when these little-known facts begin to crop up in well-researched wikipedia articles

you have so much more to live for

SORRY FOR XPOST.
To save face, a worthy contribution to the "slightly racist American novelty musical canon"...SAM THE SHAM AND THE PHARAOHS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHF558u6Q_8
A Mexican American barely passing for an Egyptian man, maybe a bit more racist than "Walk Like an Egyptian"

...an Egyptian, or some other anachronistic "Middle Eastern" stereotype

there's a hella long thread somewhere on "Rednecks" with a really good post about how the final chorus is changed by the last verse; earlier in the song, you, the non-redneck listener, can laugh at the chorus and the people singing it, but by the end, when everyone is implicated, it's a mocking "everybody sing along now" chorus.

always been kind of shocked that so many people take newman's 'rednecks' so literally. it's definitely an attack on northern bigotry (and condescension toward the south), i think.

What's great about this song is the way it doesn't just say "the North is as racist as the South," but performs this, enacts it. The chorus is real catchy, see. So at least conceptually, at least in your head, it's hard not to sing along. And when you sing along, you adopt the persona of an ignorant Southerner, just like you know Randy Newman's doing. You're playing a role, just like he is. You're in on the joke.

But then after the last verse, the chorus come back, but this time the "we" means something entirely different. We're all fucking rednecks, every one of us, and that "we" isn't a persona any more, it's really us, and the joke's on you for singing along, asshole. And still you sing along.

― Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Tuesday, February 10, 2004 6:56 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark

...an Egyptian, or some other anachronistic "Middle Eastern" stereotype

― coolsundays, Saturday, November 20, 2010 5:15 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

hah, that reminds me, im pretty sure one of the songs from disney's Aladdin received complaints from Arab anti-discriminatory groups... guess thats not really under the radar tho

im pretty sure one of the songs from disney's Aladdin received complaints from Arab anti-discriminatory groups

Yeah, IIRC it was the first song in the movie...had a lyric about chopping hands off or something.

xxxxxxxpost

really? so why didn't the English, the French, or the Germans keep slaves? everybody in the whole damn world knew slavery was bullshit.

Even as I was clicking "Submit Post," my brain was yelling at me "Don't bring up slavery! Don't bring up slavery!" I was looking for an example where a society was so unevolved that they weren't capable of conceiving of an argument against [insert obvious injustice here]. How about "It's like criticizing a caveman for not going vegan"? (Lame.)

(In my attempted defense, I did mention the year 1600 in my slavery example because I'm pretty sure countries like England were still involved in the slave trade at that time, even though they may not have been much of a slave-owning country themselves.)

He uses the phrase "white nigger" in "Oliver's Army," right?
...which is an Irish slur.

Of the song's meaning, Costello himself has stated: "I made my first trip to Belfast in 1978 and saw mere boys walking around in battle dress with automatic weapons. They were no longer just on the evening news. These snapshot experiences exploded into visions of mercenaries and imperial armies around the world. The song was based on the premise 'they always get a working class boy to do the killing'. I don't know who said that; maybe it was me, but it seems to be true nonetheless. I pretty much had the song sketched out on the plane back to London."

i can't believe chuck has the nerve to post on this thread. i happen to know that he is a fan of Cannibal & The Headhunters.

England banned slavery only 20 years before the US did iirc.

Cannibal & The Headhunters

A Mexican-American band.

Slave trade was banned in 1807 but yeah slavery within the Empire was abolished in 1833. There had been no slave ownership within Britain itself for a long time before that tho.

"A Mexican-American band."

oh sure and that makes their name OKAY. just kidding. love that name.

"There had been no slave ownership within Britain itself for a long time before that tho."

unless you count India, MAN.

just kidding. i hate india.

:O

No I was saying it was v. hypocritical, it was a thing that was cool if you were out of sight in some corner of the Empire but not to be tolerated at "home".

just kidding again. mad love for those guys.

Not sure India was fully absorbed into the Empire by 1830-odd tho

and don't get me started on holland. those tall dutch bastards. had half the world in their death grip.

oh how the dutch LOVE to make fun of how big portions are in american chain restaurants! tell it to jakarta you stoned giants!

I think what it boils down to is that anyone who isn't me smells funny.

I'm on a computer where I can't figure out search, so I'm not sure if the Gun Club have been mentioned. They had some blatant stuff.

yeah but we like that guy so we don't care.

I'm with you; some of their worst was some of their best.

randy newman, on the other hand, should be stoned to death.

scott so much shit I agree with you on & then there's this, and it's like, I seriously do not trust anybody who doesn't get randy newman

keep yr hands where I can see 'em scott seward

yeah i know songwriter types love him to death. i dig it. but man every second you listen to a randy newman album is a second you aren't listening to a hoagy carmichael album. that's all i know.

Oh dear, where to wade in?

I do not think Lou Reed was racist when he used the phrase "coloured girls" in "Walk on the Wild Side." It was a commonly-used phrase in the early 1970s. (I remember it alternating with "negro" for a while before "black" became the most frequently used term. I live in Canada so we do not usually say "African American.") Said the NAACP's Carla Sims when Lindsay Lohan referred to Obama with that c-word: “The term ‘colored’ is not derogatory... They chose the word ‘colored’ because it was the most positive description commonly used at that time. It’s outdated and antiquated but not offensive.” I wouldn't argue if someone accused Lou of racism based on "I Wanna Be Black" (though I think he is poking fun at stereotypes), but I don't understand why Fernando Saunders would play for him for so long if Lou were racist.

As for Eric Clapton - I was kind of shocked reading this thread. I never would have imagined he had said something like that seeing as he owes his entire career to blues (and reggae) musicians. I remember seeing some TV special in the 80s where he had both Nathan East and Greg Phillinganes playing in his band with, like, Phil Collins or someone on drums, so yeah, complete shock. What an ass...drunk or not.

I was going to comment on Siouxsie and say it is not surprising she just doesn't mea culpa about "Love In A Void" and wearing a swastika because she's always been known to be a bit of a cold-hearted cunt, but apparently this would have been a poor choice of words. However, I do think there is a difference between being an insensitive, ignorant kid and being a member of the National Front. I mean, she did change the lyrics to "too many bigots" when it was recorded so that shows some progress, no?

As for swastikas, I used to occasionally doodle them on my books in school because I thought they were kind of a neat design without thinking about what they represented (and this comes from someone who can't watch Schindler's List because he thinks he would find it too upsetting). So can I criticize a bunch of snot-nosed punks for flirting with the same imagery? Should she apologize for something ignorant she did when she was 18? I dunno. Kids do stupid things. She's probably tired of talking about something stupid she did 30 years ago.

With regard to "Hong Kong Garden," I see it as empathetic toward Chinese girls and women sold into the slave trade. Is it the couplet "slanted eyes meet a new sunrise/a race of bodies small in size" which makes the song racist? While I'm not sure the choice of diction was wise, it does create a very nice internal rhyme (and the "new sunrise" these "take-away" women are facing is pretty horrific). I think most white people are ignorant and haven't heard the term "epicanthic fold" and don't know how else to phrase it. This is not to excuse the use of "slanted," but everyone seems so scared to discuss actual physical differences between races how is anyone supposed to know what it's called?

All this being said, I can completely understand why someone would choose not to listen to music made by anyone who uses terms which are offensive. I love "The Message" and "Rappers Delight," but I still cringe when they use "fag" or "fairy." I try to get past it because I don't think they knew any better, but it makes me enjoy the music a lot less. Truly racist and bigoted people make me wretch. Axl Rose can eat a big bowl of dicks. We're not all the same. People are different. This is good.

how many dicks are in a big bowl of dicks anyway? i would think like three, but it probably depends on the factors of it.

would you consider a bowl of cheerios with only three cheerios in it a "big bowl of cheerios"?

Yeah three is more like an appetizer maybe...

I'd say at least a good dozen.

isn't the whole thing with brit kids back then and nazi stuff all about being surrounded by ww2 memories and stories and all that history and baggage and dads and grandads wwho fought hitler? meaning england was in the thick of it and the kids of ww2 dads were understandably obsessed like roger waters and all that. and lemmy. and the imagery was decadent and alluring obviously, but there seeemed to be more of an innocent fascination with it there. kinda the opposite case with germany itself obviously where the kids had to shake that history off as best they could and invent kosmik spacecrafts made out of weed and top notch machinery to create a new ahistorical future world for themselves.

i don't think i even knew that everyone thinks or knows or has heard that siouxsie was/is a "cold-hearted cunt". but then i don't know much about her other than her punk days history and her music.

damn xp

Siouxsie was probly right about comedy Nazis being a thing in our popular culture, but she's being disingenuous about the swastika I think. It feels more like it's supposed to be badass or shocking, or at least two fingers up to your WWII remembering dad/grandad.

And I'm usually willing to accept the "those were different times" argument. There was a time in the '70s, as the white world began to understand and address our ingrained racism, where the "N" word hadn't yet become The "N" Word of today. Following the lead of black writers, musicians, comedians, etc., in trying to reclaim and defuse the word "nigger," people like Randy Newman, Patti Smith and George Carlin took advantage of that cusp when definitions, restrictions and attitudes were changing. Sure, the same lyrics written now would be received with much more criticism, but in the context of the time period, as racial thought was going through a major evolution, I think these white artists were justified in trying to find new ways of dealing with the subject. In the years to follow the word didn't get defused, but that doesn't invalidate the work that came beforehand.

This is how I break it down to an extent about Rock'n'Roll N-----. Difficult one because it's a pretty great song musically but watching her do it at Glastonbury in '99-ish was a bit uncomfortable.

Mind you according to Please Kill Me Patti referred to Allen Ginsberg as "that jew queer" so maybe I'm cutting her too much slack...

btw i suppose i should go on record as really loving "armed forces" and oliver's army in particular :-/

I always thought Oliver's Army was pretty clearly ironic, regardless of the Ray Charles incident. Whether it's acceptable to use that term is another thing, I feel the same about the Avengers' White N----- but in that context I don't think it's racist.

"It feels more like it's supposed to be badass or shocking, or at least two fingers up to your WWII remembering dad/grandad."

um, punk rock to thread? kinda the point the whole point and nothing but the point.

i don't think i even knew that everyone thinks or knows or has heard that siouxsie was/is a "cold-hearted cunt"

She has that icy cold you're-all-beneath-me persona like John Lydon.

And she still can't get over Robert Smith leaving the band - calling him fat and shit.

well, can't argue there

well yeah her stage/band persona. i didn't know she was a jerk in real life.

regardless of the Ray Charles incident
Wasn't Elvis Costello forgiven by Ray Charles?

Well, maybe Susan is actually a real sweetheart and I've just been confused by her stage persona. She often comes across as cuntish in interviews.

I neglected to tackle the Mark E. Smith line from "The Classical." I've never been quite sure of his intentions, but I've always presumed he was poking fun at groups with a "token" black musician. (He put down the chap who "condescends to black men" in "English Scheme" prior to this.) MES also often comes across as cuntish in interviews.

how about Europeans making fun of poor Americans? does that rate?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OgMVNQ5hG0

classic!

Perry Farrell's "Black Girlfriend" is pretentious & deliberately provocative, but is it legitimately racist or just ill-advised?

I think PF was baiting the squares, just so he could be like "hey man, why all the PC hang-ups when I'm just trying to express my looooooove for all the groovy black goddesses."

black girlfriend is just horrible cuz he's horrible. nothing really beyond that. and i even like jane's addiction.

Jane's Addiction from 1988-1991 = great. Everything Farrell has done before or since = utter garbage.

hah, that reminds me, im pretty sure one of the songs from disney's Aladdin received complaints from Arab anti-discriminatory groups... guess thats not really under the radar tho

― Onigaga (Princess TamTam), Saturday, November 20, 2010 5:33 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

One of the verses of the opening song "Arabian Nights" was altered following protests from the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC). The lyrics were changed in July 1993 from "Where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face/It's barbaric, but, hey, it's home," in the original release to "Where it's flat and immense and the heat is intense/It's barbaric, but, hey, it's home." The change first appeared on the 1993 video release.[63] The original lyric was intact on the initial CD soundtrack release, but the re-release uses the edited lyric. The rerecording has the original voice on all other lines and then a noticeably deeper voice says the edited line. Entertainment Weekly ranked Aladdin in a list of the most controversial films in history, due to this incident.[64] The ADC also complained about the portrayal of the lead characters Aladdin and Jasmine. They criticized the characters' Anglicized features and Anglo-American accents, in contrast to the other characters in the film, which are dark-skinned, have Arab accents and grotesque facial features, and appear villainous or greedy.[63]

Lou Reed doesn't offend me as much as white people trying to be "black" and getting it totally wrong, like bad white blues musicians, bad white rappers, bad dance music that thinks it is "funky" but isn't.

As for Eric Clapton - I was kind of shocked reading this thread. I never would have imagined he had said something like that seeing as he owes his entire career to blues (and reggae) musicians. I remember seeing some TV special in the 80s where he had both Nathan East and Greg Phillinganes playing in his band with, like, Phil Collins or someone on drums, so yeah, complete shock. What an ass...drunk or not.

As I pointed out, Eric Clapton doesn't seem to have a problem with Africans. Like a lot of other recent bigots, his problem is largely with Asians.

how about Europeans making fun of poor Americans? does that rate?!?

Rednecks are the worst bigots in the world, are a bunch of stupid republican-voting Christian fundamentalists, and deserve all the slack they can get.

http://kensten.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/digging-a-hole.jpg

lol how is he even gonna get out what a stupid redneck!

For someone who doesn't have a problem with Africans it's odd that Clapton would say "Stop Britain from becoming a black colony... Get the coons out." Ass.

"Swindler's Lust" by Public Enemy contains thinly veiled anti-semitic lines like "Laughin all the way to the bank; remember them own the banks"

If you wonder whether or not black people can be racist all you have to do is consider the racist/crackpot NOI.

in defense of rednecks Geir I think most of them would be able to correctly use the word "slack"

492 New Answers. Obsess much, ILM?

like to pass the time on ilx much because i find ilx to be entertaining and enjoyable much?

much props scott. much.

in the defense of geir he is scandinavian/a robot.

btw this thread is long and i just caught this one that went by unchecked:

Call me a fool but I always find a minority in a group of whites tend to find racial insensitivity where there is none.

― Good news, everyone! (kelpolaris), Saturday, November 20, 2010 10:55 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark

thats not a song

i know

I only read the first four words of kelpolaris' post, did I miss anything good?

lol

I do not think Lou Reed was racist when he used the phrase "coloured girls" in "Walk on the Wild Side." It was a commonly-used phrase in the early 1970s.

Whether or not the phrase was in common parlance, it may be a better question why he was using the phrase in the first place. Strongly suspect he was taking the piss and he's pretty well known for provocativeness anyhow, so really not going to argue the point too hard.

it's funny y'all talking coloured girls for lou reed when i wanna be black is just sitting there on the bench

racismwise that's like giving cadillac williams a bunch of touches instead of legarrote blount

dude was a beatnik jive talker. the kind of guy who would cop tea from spades. the beats were losers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaTHMO-XmV4

I don't remember anyone batting an eyelid about 'You Look Like A Jew' by Pussy Galore on Groovy Hate Fuck. More dumb ass punk rock shock tactics? Was anyone in PG Jewish (as they are in JSBX)?

julia

but it was still dumb ass. great song though!

not as good as cunt tease though.

Well I'll admit not really being familiar with "I Wanna Be Black", so (never got around to picking up Street Hassle). But yeah that's some pretty unforgivable stuff right there.

Street Hassle is bracing on all counts... and if anyone's role playing it's Reed on this album. I'll bet any money he's never had an argument with his drug dealer about his girlfriend dying round at his gaff in the middle of the night and what to do with the body either.

Street Hassle is such an amazingly good song.

Oh man, Pussy Galore's "White People" got totally overlooked as well. Deeply offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMxyIs8MkmU

Lou Reed's real insult to black people. (Well, black rappers at least.)

so doran your position seems to be whatever you say while playing a "role" is okay then?

i get the impression that pussy galore's "you look like a jew" is calling others out for their (perhaps imaginary) anti-semitism. "see the sick smoke rising from the dischord house and smell the furnace burning ... tim yohannon says, 'we cannot accept this ad, we cannot accept this ad, cuz you look like a jew!'" like the song seems to place the phrase in other's mouths. otoh, it's hard to make out most of the lyrics, and i don't know the story behind it. PG seemed to enjoy making enemies.

"white people" is just funny. "waxhead," off dial 'M' for motherfucker, seems more questionable: "i like negro music, all kinds of negro music, i like smelly cars, hey baseheads, suck dick!" heading off into something about "white primal primal" in the chorus. kickass song, and hard to call it racist cuz it's so deranged & incoherent, but it's clearly flirting with ... something. is it about someone in particular? and is that steve albini singing in the right channel? always wondered (feel that i at one time knew but have since forgotten).

it's truly a shame that steve albini is such a prick. i love early Big Black so much.

so doran your position seems to be whatever you say while playing a "role" is okay then?

If you've read everything I've posted on this thread, then there's no way you could come to this conclusion. I was just pointing out some stuff about that album in particular (from what I remember about it). I haven't said anywhere that it's ok or not ok, just pointing out that this album appears to be a series of vignettes.

I'll give it another listen tonight and report back about whether I think it's ok or not if you're really bothered (I suspect not). But my guess is that I'll probably think not... hence the use of the word bracing - meaning an unpleasant listen. I don't really remember too much about the song you're talking about rather the title track which - despite its sheer nihilism, misogyny and bleakness - is a beautiful song.

Y'know, it's hard to have a conversation on here sometimes, such is the overwhelming desire of some people to portray others in a negative light.

I wanna be black, have natural rhythm
Shoot twenty foot of jism too
And fuck up the jews

I wanna be black, I wanna be a panther
Have a girlfriend named samantha
And have a stable of foxy whores
Oh, oh, I wanna be black

I don’t wanna be a fucked up
Middle class college student anymore
I just wanna have a stable of
Foxy little whores
Yeah, yeah, I wanna be black
Oh, oh, I wanna be black
Yeah, yeah, I wanna be black

I wanna be black, wanna be like martin luther king
And get myself shot in the spring
And lead a whole generation, too
And fuck up the jews

I wanna be black, I wanna be like malcolm x
And cast a hex
Over president kennedy’s tomb
And have a big prick, too

Oh, I don’t wanna be a fucked up
Middle class college student no more
Yeah, I just wanna have a
Stable of foxy little whores

Yeah, yeah, I wanna be black
I wanna be black
I wanna be black
I wanna be black
I wanna be black
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I wanna be black
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I wanna be black
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I wanna be black
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
(yeah, yeah, I wanna be black, oh, oh)
(yeah, yeah, I wanna be black, oh, oh)
(yeah, yeah, I wanna be black, oh, oh)
(yeah, yeah, I wanna be black, oh, oh)

Some difficult "role playing" for Lou Reed here.

Now that I think of it, "I wanna be black" has the same structure and style of most Skrewdriver lyrics?

Skr3wdriver would've appreciated the idea of fucking up Jews

I can see someone thinking this song is offensive, the language taken on the surface is provocative and angry. You need to understand that in the sixties and seventies there was still a lot of bad behavior where some white people emulated caricatures of the black community, things like angry black power guy or black crime lord, like appropriating black people's culture as "cool". Clearly this song is satirizing that.

Quite. It's a bit tiresome having to point this out: "Oh, I don’t wanna be a fucked up Middle class college student no more" but nice trolling anyway.

And for the record, No, I don't think this is completely ok in terms of racism. But this is clearly role playing. CLEARLY.

"Now that I think of it, "I wanna be black" has the same structure and style of most Skrewdriver lyrics?"

This isn't the dumbest thing that's been said on this board but it's hardly a ringing indicator of an uncluttered thought process either.

"Now that I think about it" is a bare faced lie on its own.

That lou reed song in short: "Black man gotta lotta problems"

It's about thinking something other than yourself is "cool" whereas all of it is prejudice/steretyping, and false.

Isn't it? I've not heard it but I can read the lyrics...

Maybe the name of this thread should be change to "The thread where we construct a world where educated and liberal white middle class people are supposed to be much more racist than rednecks and other people with little education"

which one is you?

My Dad had literally no formal education given that he was an evacuee during the Second World War, to a farm in Wales. He then left school at 14 with no qualifications. All of my liberal/socialist politics (i.e. the firm basis or all my anti-racist beliefs) come directly from him given that he is an auto didact (mainly via public libraries, Radio 4 and the World Service).

Your 'working class/underclass = more likely to be racist' theory doesn't have much in the way of credibility, believability or nobility, given that it appears to be the product (ironically) of pure bigotry.

People with low education are definitely more likely to be racist. A true racist will express his racist views unhidden, feeling no need to hide them. Searching for hidden racist views in people not expressing obviously such views makes no sense.

Thus, this thread should be about obvious racist scum such as Toby Keith and his scum fans rather than about liberals like Lou Reed and Randy Newman.

No, this is wrong (quelle surprise)

A true racist etc, but will 'justify' his position via amazing turns of thought and 'intelligence' which can be used to justify any position

"Smart" ones might well be the kind to say "Well, this guy is all right, it's the others"

Seen it too often, mate.

Geir, I agree that educated people are taught that crude racism and stereotyping is "wrong". However there is also institutional racism where perfectly educated and affluent people do not give enough attention to racial diversity in their own community. For example, there was a time when many white rock musicians critics and fans made fun of black pop on the charts, calling it trivial and stupid, this isn't "n-word" racism or hate but it betrays a lack of understanding of or sympathy for the black community.

Damn, I wish those rednecks would stop blocking my promotion to junior partner in the firm!

Famous example, Robert Wyatt with Soft Machine touring colleges, students going up to him saying "Thank god we've got some real music, last time we had Geno Washington pssh, hah, etc" to which Robt says "Really? god he's great, I'd rather go and see HIM any day, than us!"

(might not have been Geno, it was someone similar..)

If only those rednecks would stop chosing white poets for the course syllabus!

I'm so sick of those redneck film directors always portraying African Americans as either drug addled pimps or stoic, family guy yes men!

obvious racist scum such as Toby Keith and his scum fans

dude Geir, you seriously know nothing about country music or its fans so you have no grounds to call them "scum."

In April 2009, he voiced support for Obama on Afghanistan and other decisions: "He hired one of my best friends who I think should run for president someday...Gen. James Jones as a national security adviser. He's sending troops into Afghanistan, help is on the way there. And I'm seeing some really good middle range stuff. I'm giving our commander in chief a chance before I start grabbing. So far, I'm cool with it."[19]

(though I will admit toby keith is a racist scumbag for that pro-lynching song)

xpost

People with low education are definitely more likely to be racist.

Total bollocks.

Now that I have seriously considered the lyrics to "Wig Wam Bam"

I know it was 3 days ago but...er...lol.

I think their Sweet FA is more offensive in retrospect. But Blatantly sexist songs which have... thread would be huge.

(though I will admit toby keith is a racist scumbag for that pro-lynching song)

xpost

― ＿|￣|_|￣|_|￣|_ = (4/π)Σsin((2k-1)2πft)/(2k-1); k = 1, 2,..., ∞ (crüt), Monday, November 22, 2010 6:48 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

the what

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1JOFhfoAD4

Surely we can find something that is racist without tripping off any of our own radar. Whatever you think of Lou Reed or the Stones, it didn't go unremarked upon. How about dance music with "ching chong china" rhythms.

For example, there was a time when many white rock musicians critics and fans made fun of black pop on the charts, calling it trivial and stupid

That was not because it was black, but maybe to some extent because it was working class. The working class tends to have less problems with blatantly commercially constructed music than the educated middle class does. To appreciate acts writing their own material and having artistic control over their own output is not a "white" value, it is more a middle class one.

Toby Keith writing about hanging as a historical punishment for crimes does not equate to racism. I'm not a fan of his but that's a stretch.

(And obviously the percentage of working class is higher among African Americans than among, particularly, Northern Europeans, which has mainly to do with social and economic status - i.e. white Northern Europeans can afford an education (or even get it funded by the authorities) to a much larger extent than African Americans can)

Thus, when black acts such as Sly Stone, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye in the late 60s (Sly) and early 70s (Wonder and Gaye) demanded artistic control, they would become more accepted by the white middle class. Not because they became "whiter", but because their musical values were closer to middle class values.

Commie.

Toby Keith writing about hanging as a historical punishment for crimes does not equate to racism. I'm not a fan of his but that's a stretch

^^^^

Describing Keith's over-produced truck commercial schmaltz as "country music" besmirches the dignified tradition established by Bill Monroe, Johnny Cash and Dolly Parton, while insulting the innovative artists propelling the genre into the future, from Neko Case to Son Volt to my good friend Dave Bryan (hear his music here).

Tracer, I think that calling a Chinese person a "chinaman" is considered pretty racist.

― the caroline notsaying memorial displayname (kkvgz), Friday, November 19, 2010 11:40 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark

it's not the preferred nomenclature

lol

Slight return:

In April 2009, he voiced support for Obama on Afghanistan and other decisions: "He hired one of my best friends who I think should run for president someday...Gen. James Jones as a national security adviser. He's sending troops into Afghanistan, help is on the way there. And I'm seeing some really good middle range stuff. I'm giving our commander in chief a chance before I start grabbing. So far, I'm cool with it."[19]

Thus, this thread should be about obvious racist scum such as Toby Keith and his scum fans rather than about liberals like Lou Reed and Randy Newman.

― You're Twistin' My Melody Man! (Geir Hongro), Monday, 22 November 2010 10:46 (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

and further back:

Maybe the name of this thread should be change to "The thread where we construct a world where educated and liberal white middle class people are supposed to be much more racist than rednecks and other people with little education"

― You're Twistin' My Melody Man! (Geir Hongro), Monday, 22 November 2010 10:14 (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Now, Toby Keith may or may not be racist and also may or maybe not a Redneck. But he does seem to be an intelligent person. So.

Toby Keith writing about hanging as a historical punishment for crimes does not equate to racism.

ok. Toby Keith co-writing a song that glorifies a tradition of lynching is still incredibly repulsive.

it's not the preferred nomenclature

― rip whiney g weingarten 03/11 never forget (history mayne), Monday, November 22, 2010 9:15 AM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

*coughs on morning joint*

Well a man come on 6 o'clock news
Said, "Somebody been shot, somebody's been abused
Somebody blew up a building, somebody stole a car
Somebody got away, somebody didn't get too far"
Yeah, they didn't get too far

Grand pappy told my pappy back in my day son
A man had to answer for the wicked that he'd done
Take all the rope in Texas find a tall oak tree
Round up all of them bad boys, hang them high in the street
For all the people to see

That justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys, you got to draw a hard line
When the gun smoke settles we'll sing a victory tune
And we'll all meet back at the local saloon
We'll raise up our glasses against Evil forces singing
Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses

We got too many gangsters doing dirty deeds
Too much corruption and crime in the streets
It's time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground
Send 'em all to their maker and he'll settle 'em down
You can bet He'll set 'em down

'Cause justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys, you got to draw a hard line
When the gun smoke settles we'll sing a victory tune
And we'll all meet back at the local saloon
And we'll raise up our glasses against Evil forces singing
Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses
Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses

He know justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys, you got to draw a hard line
When the gun smoke settles we'll sing a victory tune
And we'll all meet back at the local saloon
And we'll raise up our glasses against Evil forces
Singin' whiskey for my men, beer for my horses
Singing whiskey for my men, beer for my horses

I guess the lynching of people who overclaimed on their expenses isn't as widely documented as the other kinds.

Man, who would buy their horse a beer?

Buying the beer wasn't mentioned, I think they were toutin' for freebies.

People with low education are definitely more likely to be racist.

My experience at an Ivy League university completely contradicts this. It feels good to say but it's total self-pandering nonsense.

See I don't know the song or (being an englander) the singer, so I read this as what I would imagine a country singer to sound like (all honest-like) and it seemed pretty damning on the guy. Then I imagined it sung by Randy Newman and this whole twisted logic appears where he's not sincere and it's suddenly a smart clever piece of satire. So does Randy Newman covering this song stop it being 4real and push it into satire just because a satirist sings it? Ceci n'est pas une pipe indeed.

I mentioned this upthread but nobody picked up on it. I think it's worse than Keith's stringing up bad guys:

Tim McGraw - "Indian Outlaw"

I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

All my friends call me Bear Claw
The Village Cheaftin' is my paw-paw
He gets his orders from my maw-maw
She makes him walk the line

You can find me in my wigwam
I'll be beatin' on my tom-tom
Pull out the pipe and smoke you some
Hey and pass it around

'Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

I ain't lookin' for trouble
We can ride my pony double
Make your little heart bubble
Lord, Like a glass of wine

I remember the medicine man
He caught runnin' water in my hands
Drug me around by my headband
Said I wasn't her kind

Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

I can kill a deer or buffalo
With just my arrow and my hickory bow
From a hundred yards don't you know
I do it all the time

They all gather 'round my teepee
Late at night tryin' to catch a peek at me
In nothin' but my buffalo briefs
I got 'em standin' in line

Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

Cherokee people
Cherokee tribe
So proud to live
So proud to die

Still dont see the Toby Keith racism. Just cuz he's from the South, and he sings the kinds of songs people (especially those not from this country) associate with "rednecks" doesnt make him a racist. Elvis Costello calling James Brown and Ray Charles n*****ers does make him a racist, so he can go fuck himself. And the people blaming Bonnie Bramlett for publicizing that, nice way to kill the messenger.

Toby Keith is a whole bunch of things (including sometimes annoying) but I don't think you can make a credible case for him ever being a racist. (Jingoist, OTOH...)

Oh, brother. I take it all back: Bonnie Bramlett is a true 20th-century saint for informing the whole world that Elvis Costello once said "n****r." The world is a better place because of it, and after all it accomplished for the targets of Costello's ire, who could possibly argue?

uh

Still dont see the Toby Keith racism.

fwiw I conceded that he wasn't racist

always glad to have kept this one in storage instead of leaving it out at the curb with the xmas tree

http://img-s3-01.mytextgraphics.com/sparklee/2010/11/22/bf68446e77d31ee043bad979a1abc812.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9myFqvLRw1o

imp. q on that youtube

#
gutti88
2 months ago

is anyehere a hole video of him singing american ride at the nobel price??

hahaha

Oh, brother. I take it all back: Bonnie Bramlett is a true 20th-century saint for informing the whole world that Elvis Costello once said "n****r." The world is a better place because of it, and after all it accomplished for the targets of Costello's ire, who could possibly argue?

― Tub Girl Time Machine (Phil D.), Monday, November 22, 2010 10:19 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

agreed.

This is sort of opposite to the thread's focus, but two of the sillier accusations of racism I can think of would be the Smiths' "Panic" ("hang the DJ" = I hate dance music = therefore I hate black people) and all that stuff Stephin Merritt went through (I like this song from "Song of the South" = therefore I hate black people).

My experience at an Ivy League university completely contradicts this. It feels good to say but it's total self-pandering nonsense.

― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Monday, November 22, 2010 8:44 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

having grown up in the same semi-rural town as djp as well as having attended another ivy, i can say that in my experience this is otm. i def heard more coarsely expressed racism (jokes, out and out "racist" declarations) in high school, but that could just as easily be chalked up to youthful indiscretion as it could be to the fact that the ppl making the jokes weren't moneyed new englanders. what was expressed in my high school hallway v likely was expressed behind closed doors @ dartmouth, which is an assumption i'm happy to make based on some of the totally tone-deaf racist bullcrap i occasionally overheard (btu that wasn't, say, ugly jokes about lynching or w/e). funnily enough, someone i could reliably count on for well-meaning but totally-disconnected-from-reality generalizations about race and class in america was from my buddy sv4nte, who was swedish, titled in some way, and v wealthy.

methinks geir doth protest too much lol

Grand pappy told my pappy back in my day son
A man had to answer for the wicked that he'd done
Take all the rope in Texas find a tall oak tree
Round up all of them bad boys, hang them high in the street
For all the people to see

Toby Keith may (or may not)be a racist but I think his grand pappy may have been.

doesn't willie nelson also sing on that song

he co-wrote it

Willie Nelson: also racist

"home" by delaney and bonnie is an awesome album ppl should check it out

it's better than most elvis costello records

also "motel shot" is good too"