itt we talk about wether the video for "Bombay" by El Guincho is mysoginist or not

little bit of talk about this on the El Guincho thread a few months ago when it came out but not enough imo

tbh its my favorite music video in years but i think it might be fucked; lets chat

video is hella NSFW btw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CreEuaS8QY

The bits where the hands grab the legs is really unnerving. Awesome video clip, but yeah, kinda wrong.

it's kinda misogynist, somehow in an old-fashioned way? the ol' 'i love women and that's why 75% of them are topless and all of them are playin sexy and that's basically what they're here for' game.

it's also pretty beautiful!

good old fashioned misogyny: "ok love, smash some eggs on your face"

This video def deserves a thread.

i don't know much about misogyny but i know what i like.

What about the dude putting the vacuum in his underwear? Is that misogynist?

Also, I'd like to state one more time for the record that I think this is the best & sexiest & coolest music video every made.

Nudity is a definite thing this year for indie vids, cf. No Joy's "Hawaii" and Yuck's "Fur", lotsa others. Rip Van Wanko gives his blessing to this new trend.

Yuck -- "Rubber" soz

I'm undecided yet about how wrong it is, but it is an amazing video, thanks a lot for posting. Glad to know they still make good videos!

xpost: dont forget girls - lust for life http://vimeo.com/9183988

The girl with the plate on her head?

Nudity has been very trendy in indie-videos for the past 2-3 years.

I dunno this video is pretty silly and it looks like everyone involved is having a lot of fun. There are a couple WTF moments for sure (the choloroforming thing...) but I don't know...

Is 'girls doing silly shit while nude' inherently misogynistic or demeaning to them? My gut reaction is 'no'... but I'm a guy, I'm far more interested to know if the ladies in the audience think it crossed a line.

Okay it's "silly" but it's also beautifully shot and very well put together..

^pretty much where i'm @ w/ this

^xpost that too

girls to thread

i'd vote for sparklers girl in a poll, btw

yeah Lust For Life and also
Rammstein - Pussy
Flaming Lips - Watching the planets
Sigur Ros - Gobbledigook
TATU - Beliy Plaschik
That Matt & Kim video where they walk thru the city

theres plenty of full frontal these days, but "Bombay" is def the best of them all

Um, yeah, wow. I love El Guincho and think the video is really well put together, but... I dunno, the aesthetics are really appealing, and of course there's nothing inherently misogynist about nudity, but if you don't see the very regressive imagery then you must either be blind or trolling. Not gonna rag on anyone for liking it, though - many many things in this world have been simultaneously wonderful and politically dodgy.

^^^probably otm (i'm about to watch it when i can bear to pause kate bush) but this debate ain't over 'til tuomas and kate have posted imo

Every time I see it there's at least 5 images I didn't catch last time.

have you watched it ~on weed~?

My mistake, there's no full frontal in "Bombay" .. just lots of shirtless ladies.

this is basically the result of trying to channel Bunuel and Jodorowsky simultaneously but with more boobs

Bunuel was subtle and classy on a whole other level and Jodorowsky had more style - other than that, passable, albeit male-violent-psychosexual-fantasy oriented

about 1/4 of it was legitimately rad - usually, the bits without boobs or guns (panda execution exempt)

i'd vote for sparklers girl in a poll, btw

― http://tinyurl.com/jerrymacarena (gr8080), Monday, December 13, 2010 2:05 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark

Yes, either her or the panties-and-giant-knife girl.

xp Yeah, that poor bear.. I hope he's ok.

if there's a poll I sincerely hope every shot is an option, not just the 'smashables' u horny mofos

no poll plz

in the comments there are 3 Jodorowsky shout-outs and one Bunuel. once more Jagger taps the hivemind (also the nature of the imagery owes some pretty blatant debts - at least the guy's got taste)

Yeah, you can see the influences, but if you go down that route of comparison then it actually becomes less okay rather than more, as it just doesn't hold its own against those guys.

which is what I said :D

now everyone go watch Holy Mountain and The Phantom of Liberty with the volume down and the chillwave up

I'm a girl and I don't see why anyone would consider the video mysoginist. Is it the nudity? Or which part of the video are we talking about precisely?

If its the nudity, which I suppose could seem like exploitation to other cultures you must remember Guincho and director Nicolas Mendez are both from Spain and seeing topless women around spanish coasts is much more common than you think and there's nothing morbid or extraordinary about it. Male and Female nudity is legal in Barcelona.

All of Nicolas Mendez work I've seen explores the same sort of themes, fixed about capturing the joys and difficulties of adolescence. So no, I don't think he's trying to channel any sort of male fantasy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nilbyx5k1QQ

u guys forgot about gucci mane - makin love to the money video

At least in Bombay the Jodorowsky influence is more subtle; which shots would these be? The only thing i can really think of is the aerial view of the people walking in that X formation.

The "Time to Pretend" video basically just recreated 2/3 Holy Mountain scenes, this is much more creative.

once more Jagger taps the hivemind

yeah, i dunno, it's not so much an unflattering comparison as it is an acknowledgment of obvious influence. doesn't take anything away from the video in my mind. anyway, i do like the clip, and while the imagery is questionable at times, the whole is too self-aware, nostalgically referential and playful to seem legitimately misogynist.

Oh wait, I just noticed that in the other video I posted there's a boy hitting a girl in her hands numerous times. I take it back, Nicolas Mendez is definitely mysoginistic.

while the imagery is questionable at times, the whole is too self-aware, nostalgically referential and playful to seem legitimately misogynist.

― phish in your sleazebag (contenderizer), Monday, December 13, 2010 1:49 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

isnt this just 'because i like it its not legitimately misogynist'

He also implies a lesbian relationship of two gorgeous women which is obviously a recurring male fantasy.

watched it again and it's pretty cool although some of it doesn't do enough with the sexualisation - boobs on their own or with sparklers aren't going to challenge anyone (although they might titillate)

and some of the imagery is made of stock surrealist tropes - arm coming from wall is oldest trick in the book iirc

bruneau like 3/4 of it directly reminds of of Holy Mountain - the shots don't have to be identical

Will say this again: if you don't see the very regressive imagery then you must either be blind or trolling. Still true.

if only there were more progressive imagery in this music video

Like, wizards and shit? That would be cool.

skeleton hand grabbing ankle from under the bed gives me the chills

Isn't the regressive imagery sort of the point of it?

awesome vid obv, but anyone who tries to argue its not basically objectifying women thru-out is crazy

basically every conversation ive had w/ someone abt this video has gone like this:

"have you seen that video?"
"yeah. soooo fucking good."
"yeah. and sooooo many boobs."
"soooooooooo many awesome boobs."
"great fucking video."

i put it on fb "i really like this video (not just because there are lots of tits in it btw)."

isnt this just 'because i like it its not legitimately misogynist

well, no. my point was that the whole clip occurs in quotation marks, paying reference not just to familiar surrealist tropes, but also to a kind of self-consciously "decadent" 70s cheeze - half-baked art nonsense that often justified its salacious misogyny with cheap surrealist gestures. the debt is obvious, as is the sense i get that we're supposed to see this as a pastiche of yesterday's naughty bits. the quotation marks complicate the artistic point of view so that it becomes difficult to say whether or not this video is truly misogynist. we might just as well say that it fondly observes sleazy sort of innocence.

wishing i could watch this, but don't want to get fired

^^^

half-baked art nonsense that often justified its salacious misogyny with cheap surrealist gestures

lol zabriskie point amirite (BIG debt to that here too i think)

well, no. my point was that the whole clip occurs in quotation marks, paying reference not just to familiar surrealist tropes, but also to a kind of self-consciously "decadent" 70s cheeze - half-baked art nonsense that often justified its salacious misogyny with cheap surrealist gestures. the debt is obvious, as is the sense i get that we're supposed to see this as a pastiche of yesterday's naughty bits. the quotation marks complicate the artistic point of view so that it becomes difficult to say whether or not this video is truly misogynist. we might just as well say that it fondly observes sleazy sort of innocence.

― phish in your sleazebag (contenderizer), Monday, December 13, 2010 2:07 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hmm, smells like bullshit

If immature idiots only think the video is good (or nsfw for the matter) because of the boobs then they're the ones being mysoginistic, not the director.

deej yr argumentative style is thoroughly objectionable and I have 0 issue with those who take arms against it

and yeah, it's also clearly supposed to be sexy. that part of the POV isn't at all in doubt. the fact that it's making ironic but seemingly cheerful contemporary erotica out of images that recall the misogyny of yesteryear is dubious, but hardly objectionable to my mind. but then again, i like boobs, so...

ok,

i dont see how scare quotes & art school references makes this any less about objectifying women. or references to surrealism. that makes it good, maybe, or interesting, but doesnt make tits not be tits

deej I think both you and contenderizer are both kinda right about this. I would rather it had fewer boobs too.

-1 'both'

I would rather it had fewer boobs too.

^^missing the point, broseph

I can't watch it again now because I'm at work but I watched most of it this morning and was obv looking for the misogyny after reading the thread title. The one point that gave me pause was the "skeleton hand grabbing ankle from under the bed" grady referenced although that might be because it's just sort of generally creepy. That said, I very much agree in theory with Emily's points throughout but I don't personally find it troublesome or hard to watch or anything.

also not that you WANT fewer boobs, just that fewer boobs would excuse some of its kitschy exploitative excesses - amazonian woman imagery is especially egregious imo

some of the boobs are tastefully-handled

sort of misogynist, entirely awesome

i'm fundamentally okay with imagery that intends to be erotic and which consists of pleasant-looking naked people of any gender. i think the argument that such imagery is negatively "objectifying" does communicate a core truth, especially given pervasive social inequalities, but has been wildly overstated and far too liberally applied over the last few decades. it's not the fact that the video takes such obvious pleasure in tits that makes it misogynist, to my mind - it's the fact that it conflates this relatively cheerful sort of sexual exploitation with eroticized threats of violence against women.

yeah, being knowing about something doesn't stop you from being sexist, racist, whatever. cf. Vice Magazine ironic racism.

lmao @ 'i would rather it had fewer boobs'. st. peter counts each set as two btw

ironic sleaze or w/e cf vice mag kinda stuff is still sleaze, at some point stuff that comments on how things revel in sleaze themselves start to revel in it, if they were ever actually commenting on it in the first place. i look forward to seeing this video. ^__^

Well then the real argument would be why do the American and British people consider boobs to be such an unusual and unnatural thing that needs to be exploited when the Spanish don't. Censorship in your countries is fucking your mind up more than you think it is.

btw when the soccer ends I will watch this again and rate every boob-scene for tastefulness. u have abt 100 minutes to 51 me

yeah, being knowing about something doesn't stop you from being sexist, racist, whatever. cf. Vice Magazine ironic racism.

― À la recherche du temps Pardew (jim in glasgow), Monday, December 13, 2010 12:18 PM (16 seconds ago) Bookmark

agree completely, but the irony does make this sort of thing hard to parse, especially when it comes to whether and/or how one should object to it

we might just as well say that it fondly observes sleazy sort of innocence

while knowledgably participating in it too, tho.

Well then the real argument would be why do the American and British people consider boobs to be such an unusual and unnatural thing that needs to be exploited when the Spanish don't. Censorship in your countries is fucking your mind up more than you think it is.

um gtfo! I have 0 problem with nudity and 1000000x problems with the puritanical nature of my nation's media - this is not about censorship, though, it's about tasteful artistic decisions and male-fantasy fulfilment

Yeah, I think people are reading a little too much into this esp since the ladies on the thread seem to have the least trouble with it. Just saying. I'll view it again from home later but imo there are videos that are much more objectionable but just with less nudity shown on tv all the time. I think the boobs thing is throwing you guys off a bit.

I think the boobs thing is throwing you guys off a bit.

story of our lives.

Well then the real argument would be why do the American and British people consider boobs to be such an unusual and unnatural thing that needs to be exploited when the Spanish don't. Censorship in your countries is fucking your mind up more than you think it is.

― Moka, Monday, December 13, 2010 12:19 PM (43 seconds ago) Bookmark

that's not exactly it, moka. i think US/UK and european attitudes toward this kind of thing are fundamentally different, but that could be a product of things other than "censorship." i mean, whether or not you consider this sort of imagery sexist, it's obvious that the video is straight-up boobspoitation. again, i'm personally okay with that.

male-fantasy fulfilment

― schlomo replay (acoleuthic), Monday, December 13, 2010 12:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with "male-fantasy fulfillment" though, is there?

wishing i could watch this, but don't want to get fired

― get off my lawn (rockapads), Monday, December 13, 2010 3:08 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

OTM

Perhaps they should make an American version of the video for people that think there are too many boobs. Let's slip in some shots of people getting killed instead.

there is a long-running strain of contenderizer-thought that goes, if i enjoy it, there is nothing to critique, because otherwise i would not enjoy it. i reject this

many times that which is objectionable is beautifully wrapped, or beautifully unwrapped

depends. when it's sam peckinpah, it's art. when it's this, it's porn. i think it's a case of what is being mediated - and for a video to present itself as a cool surrealist adventure but also as joyful boobsploitation/gunsploitation, it is hedging its bets a little

now, some of the boobs (golden-painted girl) and guns (panda scene) are well-handled, and there's even a frisson of humour in the bit where the machine-gun girls hijack el guincho in the jungle, but some of them, notably the 'amazon' scenes and sparkler scenes, are lewd in a manner that undercuts any surrealist subtlety. although perhaps they're making some comment about sexualisation idk it's a cool movie w/e

have forwarded it to my gf who is spanish and likes jodorowsky. she will probably fucking adore it.

This thread has taken a video about the glory of boobies kind of unfun to watch.

there is a long-running strain of contenderizer-thought that goes, if i enjoy it, there is nothing to critique, because otherwise i would not enjoy it. i reject this

― lotta diamonds ... but prolly more display names (deej), Monday, December 13, 2010 12:30 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

there is a long-running strain of deej-thought that goes, if i sneeringly disparage some reductive cartoon version of the other person's argument, i win the internet

there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with "male-fantasy fulfillment" though, is there?

― phish in your sleazebag (contenderizer), Monday, December 13, 2010 10:24 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

OTM

not all male fantasy fulfillment is inherently misogynistic

also i wasnt really rferring to the nudity/boobs when i started this

its shit like girl smashing eggs on her face, 2 girls hair braided together, etc

also i wasnt exclusivley really rferring to the nudity/boobs when i started this

but some of them, notably the 'amazon' scenes and sparkler scenes, are lewd in a manner that undercuts any surrealist subtlety. although perhaps they're making some comment about sexualisation idk it's a cool movie w/e

― schlomo replay (acoleuthic), Monday, December 13, 2010 12:32 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

i'd argue that there's nothing wrong with lewdness or even outright pornography in and of themselves

okok i don't actually have a problem with this video, just saying it's got a bit of crassness among the art and the hotness, everyone otm, wd rather discuss its surrealist lineage like braided 2gether hair and eggsmashing yes gr8080 is right

I'm sorta with contenderizer here too and think I have been during a similar discussions prior to this.

smashing eggs just sounds really weird, don't remember the hair thing - obv need to watch again

I don't think surrealism is necessarily the point of this video, tho I'm not really sure what i'd say the point is. Gorgeous cinematography meets art rock titillation? The girl w the sparklers is a good point, i thought was just a really good image that i havent seen in any other video before. This video kinda makes me think of "Loser" or those early Beck videos, a montage of cool images.

x-post "during similar discussions" no a

i'd argue that there's nothing wrong with lewdness or even outright pornography in and of themselves

i agree! but it's a bit much in context. like ffs girl mounting bike revealing thong. ANYWAY

i love that we're all in agreement that its a wonderful video, everyone except louis "i hate boobs" j4gger

hey louis - why do you have boobs so much? jeez.

OH FFS

HATE NOT HAVE

stoked we're over 100 posts w/o kate or Tuomas weighing in yet

can we get Whiney in here?

ljinadress.jpg

i do think the artsy framing lets ppl get away w/ stuff that they wouldnt forgive say rap artists with videos in strip clubs even tho its appealing to the same instincts

but i like those vids too so

itt l0u1s jagg3r on the morality of boobs

i love boobs. i don't love lingering ogles of boobs, the camera not as tease but as enforcer, the boobfinder general

also focusing on a thong-clad snatch mounting a bike = really, too much

but most of this video, when the surrealism isn't hackneyed or overly indebted, is quite rad

I'm not disagreeing that the video could be boobs-ploitative, it does feature a lot of unnecesarry boobs, hell for all I care all the boobs in the video could be removed and it wouldn't affect the mood but that's sort of missing the point. It's not like the director went around with the sole intention of filming boobies, you guys are kind of levelling down the video to nothing more than a Wild On segment.

Is the egg-smashing and hair braiding a problem? There's 'violence' against men in there too, have you noticed? Is the vaccum thing an androgynistic symbol? Is the director implying a female psychosexual fantasy of castrating men?

some great lj itt

like ffs girl mounting bike revealing thong.

love that part. has a quiet dignity, imo.

^Ultimate WTF moment in this.

if nothing else this thread will result in some great display names

the vacuum thing is cool. ominous, ambiguous imagery regarding someone apparently choosing of their free will to subject themselves to bizarre treatment is a surrealist trope I fuck w/

countdown to boobfinder general...

cock as microphone
cock as microphone
cock as microphone

underrated surrealist tropes I have fucked w/

she's not shy with it; rams the raw throat right into the mic.

I really love the editing/pacing of this video, mostly near the beginning. Also the way he switches from one shot to the next back and forth rapidly. Girl blowing bubbles that spill onto her leg/guy running in slo-mo with shotgun and jumping into a pool, both images climaxing at the same time.

if nothing else this thread will result in some great display names

― omar little, Monday, December 13, 2010 10:44 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

dibs on "the boobfinder general"

I actually wrote about this today, so I've been keeping out of the thread. I thought it was neat that someone else saw Jodorowsky in this.

I mean, basically it's arty and exploitative but not especially misogynist in my eyes. There's def a lot of beefcake in there too.

Like, its def striving to be "art" instead of "trangression" which is why it really rises miles above lol indie dipshits like "OMG HES SINGING INTO A DICK" "Girls" "Album" or whatever that is

like if you removed all the nudity it would still be a great video—which to me says less "this nudity is unnecessary" and more "this video is clearly much more than nudity, so I will trust it to use it where it sees fit"

OTM

i like that there's all these really conventional-looking shots of him and his band playing, that somehow makes it feel a lot more like something from the vague hazy era it suggests

every time I'm like "damn, I want to explore the cosmos" I watch this video.

I subtract points from videos without some form of music performance... And even better, the shots of the band playing are fucking cool!

s1ocki OTM, except it's like "damn, i want to explore the boob of sultry climes"

So I think everyone agrees.. nicest boobs in any video ever.

I also love that I have no idea what he's singing about.

still need kate, tuomas, and j0hn D

I also love that I have no idea what he's singing about.

― billstevejim, Monday, December 13, 2010 8:00 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark

didnt know till today that he's from the Canary Islands! just assumed he was south american or something

btw my gf thought this was A+++++ awesome so yeah nothing rly to be concerned about here

well shit son, I had no idea you and Laura Mulvey were dating.

we sbed j0hn

suggest boobies

wish I had not approached this video from an 'is this misogynist' frame. grady u make things hard 4 me :(

(because had I approached it from a 'look this is quite rad' frame I'd have probably said 'yeah this is rad, good surrealist influences, consistently affecting imagery, the occasional slightly problematic shot but not done as a means to oppress but a means to play with ideas about desire and objectification - and hey, naked humans are hot')

god i hate the word "problematic" in talking about shit like this

didnt know till today that he's from the Canary Islands! just assumed he was south american or something

― OFQM (gr8080), Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:39 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

cool. i have been there a couple of times. rad places

btw my gf thought this was A+++++ awesome so yeah nothing rly to be concerned about here

― schlomo replay (acoleuthic), Tuesday, December 14, 2010 2:42 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

lol

http://rubmint.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/e17f1_1d7b78a5-114c-4b46-b9cf-2740567d4eaa.jpg

Here's my Top 10 Music Videos of 2010 for Fuse

http://fuse.tv/music/columns/take-on-me/121610-1.html

El Guicho is on there!

best video, thx for the heads up gr8080

this was the first thing i thought of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLK5ZOjWaXE

i gave the og heads up thanking u!

via the official ilx link/thread revive to the world premiere of the video by ilx user caek

whiney thanks for that link-- some rad videos I hadn't seen before

"Bombay" should be #1 tho

sweet song, sweet video

video made me think of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C917QJH9GNM

has anyone said this video sucks

no but go ahead if you wanna be a lone chorus of RONG

video is racist

i think the video this director did for scissor sisters is more problematic...

i mean, i like the videos (esp the bombay one) on a certain level but im not willing to do any backwards rationalizations for them as not being sexist or whatever.

I mean when I watched it I got like 30 secs in and was like oh man I better turn the fuckin sound off, and then after going like "oh hey titties" for a few more seconds I was like "well its cool they shot it on film and everything but this shit is empty of any ideas but its probably something people on this forum/country would like" and then I watched some other youtube

tbh that's sorta how I felt about it. I don't think I ever made it through the whole thing.

This was the youtube I watched instead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14QEoEIvUuk

new Destroyer video for song "Kaputt"
http://vimeo.com/18442047 (SFW)

needs more babes and less whales imo

More grist for the mill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FsvMyQeC-Q&feature=player_embedded

Awesome video!

Awesome video!

― She Got the Shakes, Monday, May 9, 2011 4:43 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark

felt derivative of the el guincho one till about 1/3 of the way through or so, but I like it.

same director?

pretty obvious no?

bombay was directed by "nicolas mendez"

this one says it's directed by "canada"

I'm gonna declare authoritatively that this battles one was directed by the same guy who did el guincho

did nicolas mendez change his name to canada

ah ok:
http://www.partizan.com/partizan/musicvideos/?canada

nicolas mendez is canada

still felt sort of derivative

did you see the scissor sisters video linked above? this guy has one shtick. would have been better all around if he had just did the bombay video and then disappeared. he's the hype williams of indie music videos atm.

just watched the scissor sisters one and feel like it's actually evidence that he's NOT a one trick pony. for starters, it has more of a narrative and a def has it's own aesthetic whereas the battles one sort of feels like trying to duplicate the el guincho one.

that said i really like all three.

i liked that video

I like the Battles video just fine but it's no "Bombay." Not even close.. I've prolly watched that video like 30 times whereas I have no desire to watch the Battles video again anytime soon.

not misogynist enough :-(

watched it a few more times and noticed that the "random" shots I wrote off as derivative in the first minutes are all kind of connected and purposeful and not random at all. also love how the random objects shown from 1:00 - 1:16 all get combined to form ice-cream cone shapes from 1:16-1:34

also it might still be misogynist

Well obviously the reason i posted it is cos it was by the same dude

i like that ends with a dumb old dog

licking some bananas.

lol this is so derivative that i find it cute and a little charming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8W9NJqUu6s&NR=1

can't withstand the shit music but aye, as far as i can see. rip aff.