Anticipate Ghostface's "Apollo Kids"

This leaked, and it's terrific.

it better be fucking great to make up for its godawful cover, amirite?

http://www.xxlmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/ghostface-apollo-kids.jpg

I love the cover!

wish i could find that video around the time of more fish's first week where he's all "y'all some downloading motherfuckers"

I pay for every Ghostface album. this is the kinda guy that absolutely deserves financial support for what he does.

Man, I'd give him a foot rub if he asked for one.

Out on Tuesday!

what??? that soon, huh?

This title will be released on December 21, 2010.
Pre-order now!

~~~click~~~

hey i pass no judgment it woulda just been apropos is all

oh shit Troublemakers

naming this after not only my favourite ghostface song but my favourite song ever = high expectations

and I love the color scheme of the notebooks.

Tracklist:
01. Purified Thoughts Feat Gza and Killah Priest
02. Superstar Feat Busta Rhymes
03. Black Tequila Feat Cappadona and Trife
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
05. 2getha Baby
06. Starkology
07. In Tha Park Feat Black Thought
08. How You Like Me Baby
09. Handcuffin Them Hoes Feat Jim Jones
10. Street Bullies Feat Sheek Louch Wiggs and Sun God
11. Ghetto Feat Raekwon Cappadonna and Ugod
12. Troublemakers Feat Raekwon Method Man and Redman

purified thoughts is such a classically wu-tang song title :)

The brevity of the album is what I like most at this stage (only heard it once; will keep quiet since I tend to overrate his things).

i bet this suxx :D

04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game
04. Drama Feat Joell Ortiz and the Game

ghostface killah: making the boston phoenix seem "with it"

what's the 'superstar' beat? sample sounds real familiar

Haven't made it all the way through yet but so far I like it a lot. No R&B singers, no Autotune, no skits. Loads of guests, but nobody really shitting the bed.

what's the 'superstar' beat? sample sounds real familiar

dj sprinkles used the same sample on midtown 120 blues

theres an old rap track that samples it too, i was thinking it was organized konfusion but I cant place it right now, sounds like some blackbyrds or something.

it's roy ayers - he's a superstar

ghostface is so reliable <3

dj sprinkles used the same sample on midtown 120 blues

― groovemaaan, Saturday, December 18, 2010 7:48 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

thanks! that's where i'm recognizing it from. not sure if i've heard the original track its from even

ghostface is so reliable <3

― larry longballs money (Whiney G. Weingarten), Saturday, December 18, 2010 1:13 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark

This is just average, Weiney. Not inspired at all. Ghostface is still Ghostface, but he's just spinning wheels now. Definitely wants out of his Def Jam deal.

even uninspired Ghostface is like >>>>>> most everything else

Although word down the Bedford Ave. pipeline is hipsters are done with him and there's gonna be Ghost backlash this year

dude hes been treading water for albums now, he obv just throws this shit out & doesnt really care about it

even uninspired Ghostface is like >>>>>> most everything else

I'm not disagreeing with this, but Apollo Kids feels halfhearted, still.

not like ILX staples Lil B and Odd Future and Soulja Boy who clearly labor over every track YouTube

Because every rapper succeeds at making music in the same way...

ghostface isnt even worth arguing about in 2010

There's definitely something to be said for reliability. Digging this so far.

Seriously, Ghost rap's Mark E Smith in so many ways, fuck the haters

^^^^

yet to extract the rar but the analogy basically parses afaict

Love the bit on "Drama" about Raekwon watching Rachel Ray

also: loooove "Starkology" and its total 1985 vibe: the "Shout" sample, the Rick Rubin-LL scratches and vibe.

Yeah, that and "in The Park" is obv the sweet spot for me

used "vibe" twice haha. I'm drunk.

the first track sounds great

nae fuckin about w/ ghost

it was driving me crazy for a while, but i think it's the first song that shares some sampled UHH!s with the pete rock/kanye/jay thing the joy. just in case anyone else is butting their head against a wall trying to work out why so familiar

lol Ghost sampling Asha Bhosle!!!

he obv just throws this shit out & doesnt really care about it

I don't think this is true of the Wizard of Poetry one, that had a definitely consistent vibe/cohesion to it

i actually think wizard of poetry is one of his less cohesive albums. but i don't see this as a problem with ghost's work in general, at all. not sure how sticking devoutly to the same basic aesthetic, album after album after album, equals "not caring"...

Wizard of Poetry = all about women.

thought this was pretty clear/obvious...?

yeah, i wasn't thinking of the album's subject matter. wouldn't disagree with you there obviously. i meant more that the quality of the individual tracks was more hit-or-miss for me than most of ghost's albums, imo.

well the two before are big doe rehab and more fish so i wouldn't agree

"Stapleton Sex" "Stay" "Paragraphs of Love" "Guest House" "Let's Stop Playin'" <--great run on Wizard imo

on first listen this seems like more of a slapped-together affair in the vein of More Fish and Big Doe Rehab to me

rating this as just okay - best tracks (Ghetto, Troublemakers) are towards the end. kinda lacking in the storytelling dept, which is usually one of Ghost's strong points

Love the chop of this on Starkology:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k0T2UiRaps

At like 1:05

Purified Thoughts is amazing.

But Ghetto really isn't.

Amazon mp3 download only $5. Sold!

I actually really like this. It feels like the most consistent since Fishscale to me. I do miss the more narrative Ghost songs, but this is really fun. I love the production, so many great sample sources. The opening pair and the closing pair are the huge standouts (especially love the Roy Ayers sample on "Superstar"), but it does have some weak spots - lol @ that Jim Jones verse.

I bought my copy today to help the cause, but a dozen listens later and this is second-tier.

I think this is pretty kickarse

pfork review probably otm

yeah, i didn't read it, but 6.5-7.5 seems the right range for this

eh Pfork review runs pretty contrary to my evaluations of his last half dozen albums

do u think they're all great or something?

no they aren't ALL great. but Ghostdini is great. better than this album

like Big Doe Rehab is a totally slapped together, half-assed affair, I can't remember if anything at all on it is particularly worthwhile, but the latest Pfork review seems pretty muddled - I'm not sure what they want from Ghost. For him to not "try so hard" to crossover and go back to all RZA beats or something? I don't quite get it.

"Walk Around"? "Yolanda's House"?

btw I think this record is as good as BDR (i.e. in the B+-B range).

oh yeah Walk Around, that one's great. is Yolanda's House the one where the woman's kids throw the guy out the window? that song is crazy.

oh the Shakey Dog cut on BDR is good too.

in conclusion, even his worst stuff has awesome bright spots.

ah I was thinking of "Maxine"

In Pam's house there was money missing
She was too dumb, had her nose numb, sniffin blow in the kitchen
Her kids never ate, PCW involved with her
Kids that she never seen shipped through to Florida
Maxine dark skinned and bal' headed bitch mean
Pams right here together they're the coldest fiends
Ah! Shit! Guess who arrived at the door
it's Moony the supplier swung open the door
Bitch open the door, Maxine he go'n kill me
Chill I got a friend cop, girl you don't know it's beef
Three long kicks the hinges flew off
Kids sreamin' they happy faced slapped blue, Maxine head off
It's on in the crib, you wrong for what you did
"You gonna pay Pam, fuck that boo kissed your kids
Y'all get the fuck in the room, fuck you, you ain't are real Daddy
Next time you see my caddy don't fucking flag me
[R] This is where he fucks up at peep his movement
Maxine's in the kitchen crying grits is falling on the side
She had a cup of lye, somebody gots to die
Uh huh, y'all bitches fucked up, smoked out my packages
You had Mackie shit and Pappy shit?

Word to Aunt May I want mine, pulled out the nine
Get in the tub, he seen the hot iron pulled the plug out
He steamed Pam brought it back to Penny on Good Times
Back in the dollar bill he sniffed like six lines
He put his Gat down, why he do that?
Creeping through the crib is Maxine pot holdin' down with the grits
Pam sucking his dick, Maxine Al Greened him screaming slipped in piss
He ran into Ceas' room, grits down cryin' aight with his balls out
He stepped on Clarences' Biggie Smalls album
Mooney get that niggaz, Pam yelling rip that niggaz
Mooney went and got that dye out the kitchen
James jumped on Moon, poked him with a screw driver
Broke the TV Niggaz watching Knight Rider

This is Pam Jerkins mother house the same shit go on in her brother house

You know Mooney is only a buck o'five wet
he only had two hundred dollars worth of shit
And the kids tore his ass up, the Ceas had a huddle up
I felt sorry for'm, the funny shit when bowlegged Keke hopped on 'im
Jumped on him pigeon toed Moony poured dye on him
You should've seen his motherfuckin' face fryin', half dyin'
They stuck a fork through his nuts
the little girl was happy she beat the brotha up
Quick pick the window up Mooney over heard
Right before they threw him out the Nigga said Word!?!

On the count of three he landed on the first floor balcony
Blood brains splashed.. he was dead? and the cops never came
That's Stapleton

All, all, all in together now
We getting fresh getting right for the weather now
And if we fall in the game, yo that's never now
Come to my projects and we'll air you out

maxine is off bulletproof wallets

pfork review otm but the rating doesnt match the general lack of enthusiasm in the review -- would think 5.0-5.5 based on the words alone

yeah bit of a disconnect there

I do agree with most of it; Cohen's one of my favorite hip-hop critics.

i thought most of it was cocksure babble

like why would anyone not hear anything since supreme clientele and then be shocked by wizard? why is this presented like it actually happened? is the residue of the years in the interim really tush, back like that & back like that remix? and so on

wonder what deej thought of like every place in the world who reviewed this bfore his place of work did and he revived the thread lol

Well, those are his biases. Cohen doesn't like R&B, never has.

He doesn't throw his darts sideways anymore, but without sort of bullshit clutter, he's still an incredibly ostentatious lyricist, just one that's easier to parse.

UNLIKE U THEN ooo burn hi 5

yeh that's what's i was thinking tbh, like it's fine to not like wizard just say so, no need for bizarro universalist narrative

I kind of hate contemporary R&B too but Ghostdini's take on it appealed to me (which I elaborated on on the Ghostdini thread iirc)

anyway "all-r&b" is more press release than reality for wizard

i have no interest in hearing this record so im not gonna weigh in in his defense

why'dja bring it up then

i no longer harbor any fantasies of being a paid music editor anymore but in the event of some fluke, consider this an open invite for zvookster to write for me anytime

why'dja bring it up then

― zvookster, Monday, January 3, 2011 1:33 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

read the review, seemed 'relevant'

lol

thx for your important contribution deej

this album's probably the first time i've been genuinely disappointed by ghostface, though i bitched a little about big doe rehab at the time and have since repented

blasting this in my car made me appreciate it a little more, tbh

welcome to rap

lol

if this is the first time you've been "genuinely disappointed" by Ghostface, I have to wonder when you started listening, July 2010? I mean, that is almost part and parcel of following the guy

all rappers suck when they stop leading the fans and the fans start leading them

r.e.m. too

all rappers suck when they stop leading the fans and the fans start leading them

I have no idea what this means

did the fans lead him to make Ghostdini? or did they lead him to make this album? how is this 'leading' accomplished anyway

The fan replied, “My Ghostface, My precious child, I love you and I would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you.”

lol

following up his smallest album with a 180 named after his biggest album

is the new

30 is the new 20 oh wait wait wait watching this movie helped me remember some more illegal shit i did in my youth, please don't leave

rappers are pathetic

lol

just saying

ghostdini is Where He Was Going and fans are one-dimensional pieces of shit who pulled him back into hoe-handcuffing that's below him

you don't have to like ghostdini but it helps if most of its detractors admitted they only listen to one kind of rap

FYI Ironman is his biggest record

i want to know what is the only one kind of rap i listen to since i didn't like Ghostdeini

i like both kinds of music, hip and hop

also helps if they didn't act more grossed out by "absorb pussy juice like a sponge" than "we've got whores on all fours waiting to do all four of us"

i don't know you man, but i hope you wouldn't bash it for what it is if you know full well that "going r&b" albums aren't to your taste

I don't remember Ghostdini getting a lot of hate around here. Cohen obviously hated it.

i like both kinds of music, hip and hop

blasphemer

i don't recall ever "bashing" it, just didn't like it for the exact reaon you nailed - i don't listen to Ghost for his r&b side, i don't mind a track or two on a record, i just can't get down with a whole album of it (not to say deini didn't have some worthwhile tunes, just not my kind of thing; fwiw i'm not declaring Apollo Kids to be some "return to form" either, just a better record than the last couple

hating on a rapper for making an R&B album is like some sub-mid-90s "you can new jack swing on my nuts" throwback silliness (not saying yr doin this jon. maybe Cohen is to some extent)

like I didn't even know such genre purists still existed

can we all just agree the last three are all "pretty good" and be done with it

hating on a rapper for making an R&B album is like some sub-mid-90s "you can new jack swing on my nuts" throwback silliness (not saying yr doin this jon. maybe Cohen is to some extent)

i don't get how not liking one particular facet of Ghost's personality means i'm hating on him

did you read the part of my post where I specifically said I wasn't accusing you of doing that

hating on a rapper for making an R&B album is like some sub-mid-90s "you can new jack swing on my nuts" throwback silliness (not saying yr doin this jon. maybe Cohen is to some extent)

― assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, January 3, 2011 6:55 PM Bookmark

or maybe some late 00s "death of autotune" silliness

but Cohen gets TWO digs in at Ghostdini in his review, including this one: it's tempting to overrate it due a general relief that he didn't try to make Ghostdini again.

so I kinda think yeah maybe he is an annoying genre puritan. Someone more familiar with his writing/ouevre (Alfred?) can maybe shed some light

xp

Grand Puba made my favorite 00s autotune rap song btw lol

Wizard Of Poetry would have sounded 30x better if it wasn't mostly shitty keyboard presets, and was mostly Ghost over live instruments or classic "crying over old R&B loops" stylee

^hip-hop rockist

ghost's R&B songs are dope -- bp wallets & pretty toney did a great job w/ the new school / old school R&B thing

the problem is just that he kept reiterating those ideas over & over again starting w/ fishscale

he has four classic records & a bunch of diminishing returns records. pretty tony is the last great one

fuiud

pfft

pfft

what does 'back like that' do for you that wasnt already done on pretty toney

"back like that" is the only song I don't like on that album. Also since when do rappers you like have to be insanely different on every album?

'insanely different' sorta stacks the deck no

i do ask that artists try, you know, new ideas, on new albums, when their shtick starts to get tired

i actually like 'back like that' way more than the sops to real h-h heads like that corny pete rock track & rapping over donuts instrumentals

i mean, yes I know that Tame Impala fans might know who Dilla and Doom are, but you're overcompensating here

the 'ghostface does no wrong' thing is nonsense. a schtick is a schtick no matter how consistently deployed

oh for god's sake -- who has said THAT?

i think the album where he's doing breakneck rhymes over tinny-ass Stones Throw beats is def a departure from his schtick

Actually, I guess I agree with deej, in part. This is a pretty mediocre album, the successor to another mediocre album which nevertheless received intelligent, guarded praise and a pretty solid but inessential album from 2007. You can argue that he's in a "slump" or he's entered the Expert Craftsman stage of his career, I guess, but what he does isn't "schtick": even on More Fish and TBDR and Ghostdini it's smart and surprising. AK is the only one in which I see real treading water.

more fish is really underrated too. to me that's ghost in the nothing-new-but-nothing-bad mode that he's supposedly doing on apollo kids except leftover fishscale beats and stories are so much more focused and idiosyncratic (and hooky: "good") that at least the lows are goofs that sound like ghost being ghost. apollo kids sounds like tony yayo returned the favor.

rmde

damn was hoping that was still mod-repurposed

I think hating R&B is not super-conducive to "getting" Ghostface, but that's just me.

I agree.

Whiney is right that Back Like That is the worst song on Fishscale

Naw.

deej what is ghostface's "schtick" exactly?

Back Like That is awesome, wtf! It's fucking brutal

i do like back like that a lot btw

still sounds like it should have been on pretty toney tho

"jellyfish" f/ fishscale is something else...

[way more than the sops to real h-h heads like that corny pete rock track & rapping over donuts instrumentals

lmao u are getting seriously contorted in your politics of what is and isn't corny. pre-donuts jay dee was regularly hated on by heads for ruining tribe and pharcyde, having weak offbeat claps instead of snares, & being r&b... donuts is a beat tape which contains tracks he was doing for ghostface

Be Easy's the high point of the album for me. Don't give a fuck about Jay Dee and never have.

lmao u are getting seriously contorted in your politics of what is and isn't corny. pre-donuts jay dee was regularly hated on by heads for ruining tribe and pharcyde, having weak offbeat claps instead of snares, & being r&b... donuts is a beat tape which contains tracks he was doing for ghostface

― zvookster, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 10:42 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

the dilla cult is rivaled only by nas stands for corniness at this point
i like dilla but he doesnt blend w/ ghost well. they are not pb&j, more pb&chewing gum

nas *stans*

Both the Dilla joints on there are dope, whether he has a corny death cult or not.

to a dilla stan two great tastes automatically taste good together when one is j dilla

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mJmwQtPmusk/SfYZ1cjoTRI/AAAAAAAADwI/MRWQ9zahPKY/s400/strawman2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2009_04_01_archive.html&usg=__S-UBDdW5YCzc7FY_SuYDnLg7OPg=&h=320&w=250&sz=21&hl=en&start=28&zoom=1&tbnid=CY2dplaT0V0S5M:&tbnh=128&tbnw=106&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dstraw%2Bman%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D546%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C285&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=122&vpy=185&dur=25&hovh=254&hovw=198&tx=129&ty=158&ei=X1AjTe3IOY6lnQeFtYj8DQ&oei=TVAjTdylG8b_nAfHlaDUDQ&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:28&biw=1366&bih=546

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mJmwQtPmusk/SfYZ1cjoTRI/AAAAAAAADwI/MRWQ9zahPKY/s400/strawman2.jpg

I have never met a Nas stan

out here nobody gives a fuck about him

nas stans afaik only exist on the internet

rev dilla stans are everywhere cmon

there's dilla stans here iirc. Nas stans = not anymore

anyway deej I am genuinely curious how you would characterize Ghost's "schtick" cuz imho any accurate estimation would have to include like 4 or 5 fairly distinct approaches. like, yes, he may have a schtick but its a fairly versatile one.

I'm not denying the existence of Dilla stans, but you are arguing against them instead of the people itt.

the point is that "rhyming over donut instrumentals...as a sop to h-h heads" is rong

i'm a total dilla stan and whip u w/ a strap is the second best thing on fishscale

^^^

agree that both Dilla tracks - but especially Whip You With A Strap - are album highlights

and just two minutes long.

the point is that "rhyming over donut instrumentals...as a sop to h-h heads" is rong

― zvookster, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:16 AM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

by the time this dropped it really wasnt any more

youre thinking of like circa 2000

i mean what hip hop head hates on dilla in 2010, really

2006 it was already over

so yr issue isn't that it was a sop just that it was past it's sell-by date? I don't get it. make sense man

Those beats were always intended for Fishscale even before Donuts was released.

what?? no im responding to zvookster arguing that 'sops to hip hop heads' wouldnt include j dilla which by 2006 was not really true any more

when someone who might own a Wild Nothings album gets hip to a rapper, deej will be there to call it corny

j dilla changed my tshirt stans are corny to lots of people whiney

well he wasn't rhyming over donut instruments, he had jay dee making beats for him then he died and the whole death cult thing happened so it wasn't really a sop either. they were probably fairly cheap decent beats.

Yeah, he was trying to get some of that corny death cult money by getting beats from him when he was still alive. That's fucking logical.

i dont think they rank w/ dilla's best by any means. and i dont think they make sense as tracks that 'fit' ghost's style either

i didnt say anything about 'death cult' you herbs did

ghost totally has a raw, 80s streak, and dilla/doom beats are the tinny, tense, subway-listen heir to that style

i agree it's more true of 2000 but the real canonization was post-donuts whereas ghost was already working with him

deej u said "rapping over donuts instruments" so...

fishscale is just not that good an album imo. whats corny isnt 'who likes it' its that its not good but is praised like its a classic & the only reason i can see someone calling it a classic is bcuz 'classic' artists like pete rock & dilla, who get the kind of auteur's blind adoration hip hop heads are into, produce some mediocre tracks on it

i agree it's more true of 2000 but the real canonization was post-donuts whereas ghost was already working with him

deej u said "rapping over donuts instruments" so...

― zvookster, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:48 AM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

they are instrumentals
that were also on donuts

oh for fuck's sake, guys, let's not make this a sequel to the Diddy and Kanye in which the same three people fight over the same stupid shit.

lol deej

i didnt say anything about 'death cult' you herbs did

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 9:46 AM Bookmark

You used ever-so-slightly different language to describe the exact same phenomenon, yes.

I don't think Fishscale's as good as Pretty Toney fwiw. deej may be right about it's adoration having to do with it's producers (why'd you leave MF Doom off yr list deej?) but there is a weird kind of strawmanning going on implying that you know people don't actually LIKE the album, they are just fronting cuz the producers have "coolness" cred or something. which is never a good look deej. argue about the music, the details, the specifics on their own merits, it's more defensible.

rmde at deej

shakey otm

I mean it may very well be the case that Fishscale's sense of importance is augmented by the fact that Ghost worked with a bunch of producers - Doom, Dilla, Pete Rock - that tons of hip hop heads like to listen to. (as opposed to Anthony 'Acid' Caputo)

The best songs on Fishscale aren't the ones by name producers anyway.

seriously, deej, as much as you make fun of corny indie fuxxors your constant instistance that 'street rap' is the only worthy shit out there is worse than a vivalavinyl poster calling cornball on In The Red Records or something. You have that street-level, under-underground, losing-my-edge obsessions of metal dudes who wanna be kvlt, but just replace like Bone Awl records with Alley Boy

in short, Dilla is dope, stfu

I first owned Fishscale as a download, which I listened to for months without seeing credits. I just loved it because almost every track offered a beat or a rhyme I wasn't expecting. I hadn't heard TPTA though, and in hindsight it's probably better, but I don't know what Pete Rock and DOOM had to do with my love in the first place.

seriously, deej, as much as you make fun of corny indie fuxxors your constant instistance that 'street rap' is the only worthy shit out there is worse than a vivalavinyl poster calling cornball on In The Red Records or something. You have that street-level, under-underground, losing-my-edge obsessions of metal dudes who wanna be kvlt, but just replace like Bone Awl records with Alley Boy

― darwin deej (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:53 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont do this u idiot

you obviously pay zero attention to my writing or posts if u think thats what im about

it's really not that complicated. Ghostface made a record, Fishscale, with a bunch of well-known and well-loved producers. Everybody brought their A-game, and a lot of people liked the results (although not, incidentally, as many people as bought Supreme Clientele, and not as many as bought Ironman). There is really no mystery here. The implication that stans somehow adore the album simply because those producers names are on it and not because they actually enjoy the songs is just strawmanning bullshit.

xp

& i know more of dilla's catalog & have been listening to him longer than your bandwagon azz, xps to whiney

it's really not that complicated. Ghostface made a record, Fishscale, with a bunch of well-known and well-loved producers. Everybody brought their A-game, and a lot of people liked the results (although not, incidentally, as many people as bought Supreme Clientele, and not as many as bought Ironman). There is really no mystery here. The implication that stans somehow adore the album simply because those producers names are on it and not because they actually enjoy the songs is just strawmanning bullshit.

xp

― assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:57 AM (20 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

nah i just think stans are willing to put up w/ mediocre product from their favorite brand names

& i know more of dilla's catalog & have been listening to him longer than your bandwagon azz, xps to whiney

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:57 PM (39 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ORLY?

I hadn't heard TPTA though, and in hindsight it's probably better

wait wait alf didn't u tear me a new one when i was new here for saying stylus was mad herbish for rating fishscale over supreme clientele?

i mean, fishscale is so all-over-the-place sonically, the only thing uniting pete rock, doom & dilla is audience -- certainly there are few sonic similarities. it makes the record disjointed, and even tho there are some excellent tracks (like 'back like that' which again would make more sense on pretty toney) the sum is less than the individual parts.

the only thing uniting pete rock, doom & dilla is audience

rmde

wait wait alf didn't u tear me a new one when i was new here for saying stylus was mad herbish for rating fishscale over supreme clientele

I think I remember, sure. In my case I def listen to Fishscale more often.

ORLY?

― darwin deej (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:58 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well u certainly werent posting in steve spacek threads when i was iirc

i wasn't on ilx back in the days when you were still picking the ticks of ethan's ballsack

deej i wish i could be as 1337 as u have always been ;_;

i thought fishscale was just the best marketed of the 2000s ghost records? at least that why all the "herbs" i know like it.

anyway what were we talking abt

nah i just think stans are willing to put up w/ mediocre product from their favorite brand names

impugning someone's enthusiasm as not being genuine = nagl

will concede deej's point that Fishscale is disjointed, altho one man's disjointed is another's versatility (and weren't you complaining about Ghost's schtick being tired just a few posts ago? again, MAKE SENSE MAN)

you criticize him for being too predictable/boring but then you hold Fishscale's variety against him wtf

i wasn't on ilx back in the days when you were still picking the ticks of ethan's ballsack

― darwin deej (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:03 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what does ethan have to do w/ steve spacek

impugning someone's enthusiasm as not being genuine = nagl

― assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:05 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ppl do that on here all the time

the only thing uniting pete rock, doom & dilla is audience

rmde

― darwin deej (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:00 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hey, more evidence whiney has no clue what hes talking about

ppl do that on here all the time

if everyone else jumped off a cliff etc

again dude NAGL

at the very least it's just a poor tack to take because there's no way to prove/disprove it.

that commix steve spacek track in rev's pretentious r&b thread is real nice. (i should have posted jose james - code to that thread)

and i dont think they make sense as tracks that 'fit' ghost's style either

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, 4 January 2011 17:46 (1 hour ago) Bookmark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U23NbfDMBaI

is part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDFIFfsqWIs

and part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esVEocL5uWg

and totally fits imo.

also dilla, doom and pete rock totally rock a similar style, wtf deej. pete rock was an obvious influence on that dilla *sloppy* and open style, which doom took to the extreme (listen to something like 'tick, tick' or 'a dead mouse'). not exactly a surprise that madlib has worked with 2/3 - well afaik he hasn't worked w/ pete rock

obvi theyre not totally unrelated im just saying that whats corny about it is the same as what was corny about every major label rap record in 2005 having a salih williams track w/ paul wall, a jazze pha track, a soul-sampling track, a neptunes track etc .... its like the indie version of production credits by comittee

i don't think the record is disjointed at all though Rock/Dilla/Doom all sort of have a "recorded to cassette tape" vibe to their tracks on this; and the other stuff (save Back Like That) is tense, short loops. The whole record has kind of a "listening to a noir Marley Marl on shitty walkmen speakers" vibe that i love (no chillbro)

I mean disjointed in the sense that the beats are pretty varied - the sound of the album varies pretty widely from track to track. although the same could be said of Supreme Clientele.

Ghostdini and Pretty Toney are the two that really have front-to-back consistent production styles.

and like if Ghost WAS jumping on the doom/dilla bandwagon, he was the only real major label guy doing it at the time, so it's not really like "OHG WE GOTTA GET DRIZZY ON THIS" shit bbbbangladeshhh

Ghostdini and Pretty Toney are the two that really have front-to-back consistent production styles.

well and Ironman obviously

and like if Ghost WAS jumping on the doom/dilla bandwagon, he was the only real major label guy doing it at the time, so it's not really like "OHG WE GOTTA GET DRIZZY ON THIS" shit bbbbangladeshhh

― darwin deej (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 1:33 PM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he barely counts as being on a major any more. hes in the def jam tax break category and has been since this record

i don't think the record is disjointed at all though Rock/Dilla/Doom all sort of have a "recorded to cassette tape" vibe to their tracks on this; and the other stuff (save Back Like That) is tense, short loops. The whole record has kind of a "listening to a noir Marley Marl on shitty walkmen speakers" vibe that i love (no chillbro)

― darwin deej (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 1:31 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

so do tons & tons of rap records though. theres nothing special about the presentation here.

the special part is that its fucking ghostface who is an awesome rapper

SC, pre-sample clearance BP Wallets and Pretty Toney all have really unique thematic vibes to them. fishscale by comparison feels like half pretty toney b sides and half 'respectable' production from 'respected' beatmakers. its like tailor-made for passion of the weiss year-end lists. ironman is also fairly choppy & all-over-the-place thematically, but it benefits from having some of the best rap songs ever made & featuring wu at their hungriest

the special part is that its fucking ghostface who is an awesome rapper

― darwin deej (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 1:42 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

exactly, its a sub-par gfk album

its like tailor-made for passion of the weiss year-end lists.

here you go again with this.

i think the thematic elements on Fishscale are "coke" and "emotions"—both of which are played out beautifully by tense, nailbiting productions

SC, pre-sample clearance BP Wallets and Pretty Toney all have really unique thematic vibes to them.

I honestly don't see how SC is somehow more coherent/consistent in its themes than Fishscale. like, be specific, cuz I have no idea where you draw that conclusion from.

sell it on ebayyy!

tense, nailbiting

lol, i love it when deej pulls together two completely out of context phrases to prove a "point"

also what is the theme of BP Wallets? that record is all over the place! (I haven't heard the pre-sample clearance version and have no idea how to even find it, that's the kind of thing that disappears quick)

u can pick up the uncleared tracks, that's the way to go

its like tailor-made for passion of the weiss year-end lists.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mJmwQtPmusk/SfYZ1cjoTRI/AAAAAAAADwI/MRWQ9zahPKY/s400/strawman2.jpg

how is riding true school production vibes not a description of the 'strawman' that is a specific site w/ specific tastes

u can pick up the uncleared tracks, that's the way to go

well the Sun and the Watch both appeared on Put It On the Line... are there others?

yeah there are a few more, flowers is one

its true-school vibes on a decidedly new-school record

i had the Bulletproof Wallets promo CD and threw it away before i realized there was a difference #FML

the "no no no" one was for bpw iirc? idk u will find out on google

also what is the theme of BP Wallets? that record is all over the place! (I haven't heard the pre-sample clearance version and have no idea how to even find it, that's the kind of thing that disappears quick)

― assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 2:01 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

its not so much an individual 'theme' but the variation w/in feels like it has a purpose besides riding off the producer's reps, like ghost had an idea of the kind of record he wanted to make & chose beats based on some kind of investement in the record's artistic success

i think he wanted to make a raw record about selling coke and got a bunch of people that make gross, unwieldy, trebly beats

how is riding true school production vibes not a description of the 'strawman' that is a specific site w/ specific tastes

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:04 PM Bookmark

A straw man argument is still a fallacy whether the straw man actually exists or not.

i think the idea that fishscale is a better record is as absurd as thinking 'on to the next one' is the best song of 2009 but i guess this is where we part ways

A straw man argument is still a fallacy whether the straw man actually exists or not.

― tears of a self-clowning oven (The Reverend), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 2:09 PM (59 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what is the 'fallacy' here

how do we not do this in every other genre we talk about -- i.e. 'fact music' 'swag cru' 'teenpop cru' etc

BPWs producers are all Wu-affiliates (RZA and assorted disciples) with maybe one or two exceptions, iirc?

deej I really cannot follow yr aesthetic criteria, they seem completely arbitrary

xp

xxp That you are misrepresenting other people itt's arguments as being those of a third party and then arguing against the third party arguments as if those are those of the people itt.

how so

xxp That you are misrepresenting other people itt's arguments as being those of a third party and then arguing against the third party arguments as if those are those of the people itt.

― tears of a self-clowning oven (The Reverend), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 2:12 PM (56 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im explaining why the record got acclaim, not claiming to know why whiney has the bad taste to prefer it to bpw

you're not explaining anything, you're just impugning the motives of some fictional critical-audience aggregate

shakey im not sure what hard about this. bp wallets seems to have a driving purpose or force, ghost has a lot of different ideas on it & tries things other rappers werent. fishscale sounds like half cuts that should have been on the more thematically consistent pretty toney, and a bunch of lazy concessions to his niche/cult real head fanbase. as soon as he stopped engaging w/ rap outside that he became a preaching-to-the-choir type rapper imo & a lot less interesting. he was also, quite clearly i think, less invested in creating great music

you're not explaining anything, you're just impugning the motives of some fictional critical-audience aggregate

― assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 2:15 PM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im describing the damn albums, repeatedly.

you're not explaining anything, you're just impugning the motives of some fictional critical-audience aggregate

― assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:15 PM Bookmark

Exactly.

you're not explaining anything, you're just impugning the motives of some fictional critical-audience aggregate

― assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:15 PM Bookmark

i am doing the later part but i absolutely am explaining why the album doesnt live up to that consensus. try reading?

*latter

srry for being cranky. im leaving this thread now

Where were you when...

as soon as he stopped engaging w/ rap outside that he became a preaching-to-the-choir type rapper imo & a lot less interesting

Ghostdini was preaching-to-the-choir? wtf

lazy concessions to his niche/cult real head fanbase

I don't get what's lazy about Be Easy or Whip You With a Strap. He'd never been on a Pete Rock beat before afaik. I guess the beats were old by the time they came out? is that what makes him lazy? They're good beats! tailor made for him!)

Re BP

its not so much an individual 'theme' but the variation w/in feels like it has a purpose besides riding off the producer's reps

Is that how you listen to hip-hop -- to see how tracks "ride off" a producer's rep?

no i was saying fishscale

...is about that

does it matter?

so Def Jam frees him from his shitty deal with Epic and allows him to get with some relatively hot producers (something I can only assume Epic didn't want to front for) and deej thinks the results don't amount to much more than just a naked marketing approach.

is how I'm reading it

we're supposed to appreciate hip-hop records by the degree to which a rapper does or does not ride off a producer's rep.

I mean, if a producer's rep mattered a whit to me I would never have downloaded the Diddy record.

thats why u are a dumb dumb

diddy always has amazing producers

I'm so out of it I have no idea one would even go about accurately assessing a producer's rep. outside of ILM that is lol

I thought general consensus was that Diddy was a decent-to-great producer but a garbage performer

(xps obv)

& i certainly never implied this:

"we're supposed to appreciate hip-hop records by the degree to which a rapper does or does not ride off a producer's rep.

― Gus Van Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 3:36 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink"

but thanks for making me waste the time to debunk it

I thought general consensus was that Diddy was a decent-to-great producer but a garbage performer

(xps obv)

― Indolence Mission (DJP), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 3:38 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he doesnt really produce -- hes got a great eye for talent and what rtc once called 'curatorial flair'

As long as you keep retreating from perfectly legible sentences you've written, I'll keep accepting the thanks.

he doesnt really produce -- hes got a great eye for talent and what rtc once called 'curatorial flair'

I knew that, I was talking in (misleading, inaccurate) shorthand really that bolstered the point you'd already made

please copy and past the sentence where i claimed that "we're supposed to appreciate hip-hop records by the degree to which a rapper does or does not ride off a producer's rep." -- thats an intentional misunderstanding of my point which was applicable only to a specific album

I knew that, I was talking in (misleading, inaccurate) shorthand really that bolstered the point you'd already made

― Indolence Mission (DJP), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 3:41 PM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yah i know was just helpful clarification

like, my point about producer's reputations was a) fishscale is overrated because b) the producers are big names, which let c) ghostface phone in a bunch of tracks rather than working to find beats that fit what he was trying to achieve

of course this may or may not be true but this is how i perceive the relative strength of bpw with the relative overratedness of fishscale

I disagree, but that comment at least makes more sense.

slightly misleading inaccurate shorthand is what gets me into these messes typically

c) ghostface phone in a bunch of tracks rather than working to find beats that fit what he was trying to achieve

and as many people have pointed out, it really isn't clear why you think these beats DON'T fit with what he was trying to achieve, as they are not radical departures from other stuff he'd done, the Dilla tracks were custom-made for Ghost, etc.

like really you don't think the Whip You With a Strap beat complements Ghost's narrative + retro-soul + hyper-emotional routine? really?

you think that track is some shitty storytelling, or the beat is half-assed? why?

like really you don't think the Whip You With a Strap beat complements Ghost's narrative + retro-soul + hyper-emotional routine? really?

― assorted curses (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 3:50 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

whip me with a strap was the moment where this teetered from 'heavy shit' to 'kinda goofy & self aware' to me

your mileage may vary etc

child abuse is not "heavy shit" but "kinda goofy" rather, gotcha.

the heaviest shit is often self-aware fyi

surprised you didn't bust out "corny" there tbh

its not really about child abuse iirc. but that wouldnt be the issue regardless, it seems very self aware & 'ghostface performs ghostface' imo

i mean, its def not about the *heaviness* of child abuse. its a lil nostalgic & charming rather than being like an indictment of whoopings

I read the lyrics to this because I didn't know it and yeah, this is not at all about child abuse as far as I can tell, unless you think all corporeal punishment is child abuse.

honestly the thing the track reminds me the most of is the sequence with Samuel Jackson in Menace II Society

having said that, I don't think it's particularly goofy; it is very reminiscent of conversations I've had with friends about our experiences growing up in black households and how "time out" in its stereotypical extreme doesn't make practical sense to us (much like spankings/whippings don't makes sense in their stereotypical extreme)

Its brevity contributes to its ambiguity.

yeah i think a lot of ppl would bracket whipping a child with a strap after they wet the bed welts on the legs still leaking yo with child abuse

what was the thinking again deej, "i'll work with jay dee, he'll die and become a hot name, so i can phone it in on those tracks" that is some tao of wu right there

yeah i think a lot of ppl would bracket whipping a child with a strap after they wet the bed welts on the legs still leaking yo with child abuse

I think conflating two separate lines in the verse into one thought that sounds worse than what is actually said in the song contributes to said bracketing

Well, sure, but I tend to stay away from psychiatric taxonomy (e.g. leaving a note for someone you like makes you A Stalker). "Luka" isn't "about" child abuse: it concerns itself with how a reasonably intelligent neighbor handles her sense of powerlessness.

As for "Whip You," it's one of my favorite tracks on the album, but it's in the wrong place in the sequence; when I got More Fish I thought it belonged there. The song felt like an outtake. It doesn't really build off the other songs on Fishscale, despite being a relative of Ironman's "All That I Got Is You."

xpost to zvookster,

yeah that's so i just threw that together just from memory but i mean there i'm talking abt the issue rather than what the song's attitude is to it necessarily xpost to djp

what was the thinking again deej, "i'll work with jay dee, he'll die and become a hot name, so i can phone it in on those tracks" that is some tao of wu right there

― zvookster, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 4:09 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he was already a brand name for ppl who also loved pete rock & doom but we've gone over this

fwiw its the synergy of beat & rapper that strikes me as kinda goofy & jokey & idk a little like a one note joke. i am glad its short. its not a bad song or anything. but its part & parcel of whats wrong w/ the album as a whole, a feeling of nothing rlly being at stake

he was on the level of a bunch of undie dudes, in no way hot enough to phone it in. ffs deej.

I thought it was pretty clear that what was at stake was dude was on a new label working with a bunch of outside producers for the first time

i'm sure ghost was dying to use his deal with legendary label Def Jam so he could finally get with ughh.com aspies and whitey Pitchfucks

he was on the level of a bunch of undie dudes, in no way hot enough to phone it in. ffs deej.

― zvookster, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 4:51 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im getting really bored explaining myself when u twist what im saying into something its not so im gonna stop now

i'm sure ghost was dying to use his deal with legendary label Def Jam so he could finally get with ughh.com aspies and whitey Pitchfucks

― darwin deej (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 4:56 PM (18 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im sure that when he failed to get any hits he figured he might as well nurture the rap nerd rock the bells tour base yeah

His highest-charting hit is on that album tho.

maybe but Fishscale didn't even go gold

like, my point about producer's reputations was a) fishscale is overrated because b) the producers are big names, which let c) ghostface phone in a bunch of tracks

like unless u weren't talking abt jay dee here i wasn't twisting ur words so like gtfo

happy to rebut any other charges of twisting your words itt

jay dee was a huge name to critics by 2006, esp considering donuts dropped right after this

that album was met w/ hype & attention, not exactly a slow-burning classic. ppl already were acclaiming him before he passed

His highest-charting hit is on that album tho.

― tears of a self-clowning oven (The Reverend), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 5:16 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

'tush' bombed, after that pt he seemed to clock out of trying to have hits or pushing his own like album vision on the world

its cool that 'back like that' charted high, ne-yo contribution?

It was a single when In My Own Words hit #1, right?

I was talking about "Back Like That", not "Tush". It just seems weird to say he stopped trying to have hits on the album where he had his biggest hit.

omg deej

jay dee was a huge name to critics by 2006, esp considering donuts dropped right after this

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011

omfg

and ghost was phoning it in because?

it's illuminating to know that u'd actually accuse me of twisting your words rather than just simply be wrong. i must remember this thread next time u lecture lex about critical honesty

yeesh my point was they dropped around the same time -- getting the exact order they dropped in wrong doesnt really contradict anything i said

are u this much of an annoying nitpicker irl too?

theres a difference between posting on ilx & published writing u disingenuous weirdo

dilla was a critically acclaimed producer by the time he was working w/ ghost. period

your whole argument is bullshit deej, it's only nitpicking because u don't stop and say oh yeah that's bullshit, jay dee couldn't even get records released around this time

i mean as soon as u said "rapping over donut instrumentals" and got called on it that shld have been it

there's nothing wrong with being wrong, deej, it shouldn't make u sad and confused and lashing out

uhhh im talking about his respect from 'real head' type true school ppl who were repping for pete rock & mf doom. by 2006 there was a 10000% chance they were also fucking with dilla. you are wrong, you are from ireland, stfu

lmao

'j dilla couldnt get records released around this time' -- ???? did stones throw not put out donuts 'around this time'??

Still mad at him for fucking up Tribe tbh.

iirc he dropped a fuckin beat on busta's aftermath album in 2006

yeah they did, but he was producing for frank n dank & oh no and moka only and your boy steve spacek and many projects didn't see the light of day, the idea that ghost could phone it in because of jay dee being a big name pre-donuts is foolish, but of course that's nitpicking and disingenuous!

also good to know u don't feel a need to be honest on ilm

i never said he was a 'big name' in terms of being BANKABLE u dork -- i said big name for indie producers and lumped him in w/ pete rock and doom who were in the same position (actually, doom several tiers below dilla -- he certainly wasnt getting aftermath placements)

also good to know u don't feel a need to be honest on ilm

― zvookster, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 7:30 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont feel the need to fact check which is different -- esp when it didnt actually change my point in any meaningful way

if you find out doom had a beat on an obie trice record i forgot about, does that mean my entire point will be invalid

pre-donuts dilla and post-donuts dilla are basically the same?

dilla was a 'big name' for the true school 'rock the bells' set -- yeah it got worse after his death but he had respect & was a bankable name relative to, like, pete rock, at that time

when did i say dilla's rep was the same? do you need me to c+p every post where ive addressed this?

uhhh im talking about his respect from 'real head' type true school ppl who were repping for pete rock & mf doom. by 2006 there was a 10000% chance they were also fucking with dilla. you are wrong, you are from ireland, stfu

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 7:21 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

uhhh im talking about his respect from 'real head' type true school ppl who were repping for pete rock & mf doom. by 2006 there was a 10000% chance they were also fucking with dilla. you are wrong, you are from ireland, stfu

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 7:21 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

uhhh im talking about his respect from 'real head' type true school ppl who were repping for pete rock & mf doom. by 2006 there was a 10000% chance they were also fucking with dilla. you are wrong, you are from ireland, stfu

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 7:21 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Seriously, point me at one artist in 2005 who was actually capitalizing off this bankable producer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Dilla_discography#Production_credits

i dont feel the need to fact check which is different -- esp when it didnt actually change my point in any meaningful way

sops to real h-h heads like that corny pete rock track & rapping over donuts instrumentals

...and it's wwiii

i actually like 'back like that' way more than the sops to real h-h heads like that corny pete rock track & rapping over donuts instrumentals

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Monday, January 3, 2011 8:06 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this the original statement we're arguing about. i never said dilla was producing for platinum rappers -- i said it was a sop to real heads who like pete rock & dilla. are you really telling me that dilla was some anonymous unknown at this point?? he'd had a hand in critically acclaimed records from d'angelo common and the roots. he was a name producer, a member of the acclaimed soulquarians, and for a group of real-head rap fans, he was adored. yeah it got even crazier after his death, but he was already pretty firmly a canon producers up w/ mf doom and considered an heir to pete rock. his inclusion on fishscale, along w/ production from doom & pete rock, was a sop to critics & real heads who respected all three of those names. anyone claiming otherwise is probably from ireland or was busy worrying about hipsters at the time

tell me, is 'whip me with a strap' a donuts instrumental, or no? see, i look on donuts, and its there, in the tracklist, as an instrumental. this is, in fact, factually correct

"his inclusion on fishscale, along w/ production from doom & pete rock, was a sop to critics & real heads who respected all three of those names."

Fuck Iceland this statement seems like it was written by someone from Mars.

"Forget actually trying this time I'll just want to get the Rock The Bells crowd and the backpacker folks to love me so I'll get that Dilla cat and the Metal Face guy and I'll be golden. Coasting all the way to indie bank."

i dont think he saw it as 'coasting to the indie bank' i think he saw it the same way the entire wu has seen it since they fell out of popular eye in the late 90s .... rock the bells is the tour they can perform & still make something off of. why is this so farfetched to you?

fwiw i argued as much AT THE TIME it was released, that dilla obv had enough of a profile at this point where it was obvious he at least had some audience. he was not an unknown producer to most ppl following rap

I don't even know that you can keep your arguments straight. Basically you seem to be simultaneously arguing that Fishscale was some sort of pander to classic Wu-Rock The Bells crowd or maybe it was a pander to the critic crowd who were soon to love Dilla's or maybe it was a pander to the fairly small crowd of backpacker dudes who gave a shit about Dilla/Doom/Rock productions. Either way none of these seem like very good attempts at pandering to me, but I am guessing my pander meter probably isn't quite as sharp as your's is.

i mean at the time (in 2006) I do remember thinkin it was neat that ghost was putting some of my fave indie darlins on his big major label record (much like Jay-Z did with 9th Wonder on the Black Album). But it was still kind of new/novel thing to do at thT time before like "OH WOW KID CUDI SMOKES A BLIZZY BLUNT WITH BEST COAST" and Wu Meets The Witchhouse Culture and shit. It certainly didn't feel like pandering and felt more like a familiar major label guy who I'd followed for four albums playing a little outside of his comfort zone and paying off

If anything, getting Ne-Yo on your track was pandering

I don't even know that you can keep your arguments straight. Basically you seem to be simultaneously arguing that Fishscale was some sort of pander to classic Wu-Rock The Bells crowd or maybe it was a pander to the critic crowd who were soon to love Dilla's or maybe it was a pander to the fairly small crowd of backpacker dudes who gave a shit about Dilla/Doom/Rock productions. Either way none of these seem like very good attempts at pandering to me, but I am guessing my pander meter probably isn't quite as sharp as your's is.

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 8:38 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

is parsing this crowds like arguing indie vs hipster

i mean at the time (in 2006) I do remember thinkin it was neat that ghost was putting some of my fave indie darlins on his big major label record (much like Jay-Z did with 9th Wonder on the Black Album). But it was still kind of new/novel thing to do at thT time before like "OH WOW KID CUDI SMOKES A BLIZZY BLUNT WITH BEST COAST" and Wu Meets The Witchhouse Culture and shit. It certainly didn't feel like pandering and felt more like a familiar major label guy who I'd followed for four albums playing a little outside of his comfort zone and paying off

― endlamoosing (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 8:44 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

it felt like pandering to me, & i said so at the time so ...

pretty toney sounded like a major label record or something to you?? he was always following his own muse. when he starts getting REAL RAP producers on his records is when his records started being predictable & bland, not the other way around

It's amazing that you were able to predict five years ago that five years later you would be making the same argument.

your posts are shitty & i dont care for you at all.

for example, i never said anything about predicting, i said it seemed like pandering to me then, and still does

Sort of amazed you haven't search out the post where you said it.

\oO i have no idea if i expressed it in so many words here at the time. if u find me expressing an opinion about it at all, it will be in line with that though for sure

deej are u still saying that what u meant by ghostface rapping over donut instrumentals as a sop to h-h heads is that he was associating himself with pre-donuts jay dee as a sop to h-h heads and they are not different things

and to suggest otherwise is to be disingenuous, a weirdo, a nitpicker, and repeatedly irish

xp Great!

whiney and deej are both right. I like fishscale, and liked it in 06 in part bc (like whiney) was pleased to see ghost working slightly outside his lane with "indie" producers who I dug like j dilla. in turn, i had gotten into dilla a few years prior as he developed a rep as a "producer's producer"/critical fav. so basically yes, ghost was on some level pandering by putting dilla on his album -- and as part of the crowd being pandered to, I appreciated it!

deej are u still saying that what u meant by ghostface rapping over donut instrumentals as a sop to h-h heads is that he was associating himself with pre-donuts jay dee as a sop to h-h heads and they are not different things

and to suggest otherwise is to be disingenuous, a weirdo, a nitpicker, and repeatedly irish

― zvookster, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 9:17 PM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark

no, i said that using dilla at all was a sop to hip hop heads, and that using donuts instrumentals is in fact what he did

it doesn't really make sense that ghostface would phone it in based on such a name, u see, but it does if u were talking abt post-donuts

ghostface isnt even worth arguing about in 2010

― *plop*ism rules (deej), Saturday, December 18, 2010 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Good thing it is 2011 now!

lolz

~sigh~

donuts was greeted with enthusiasm on its release because dilla was, by '06, a celebrated producer.

his stature did of course increase afterwards

one month later, fishscale dropped, using beats that dilla had released already

but at the time, using dilla, doom & pete rock beats was targeting a specific audience of rap nerd that included critics/okayplayers/true schoolers/rock the bells dudes & the places where they all overlap

ghostface isnt even worth arguing about in 2010

― *plop*ism rules (deej), Saturday, December 18, 2010 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 9:22 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you guys are experts at pulling things out of context -- was that quote not about NEW ghostface records

not that this is worth arguing about either -- just feel like pointing out how dishonest u guys are when arguing

are u sighing because u are tired from back-pedaling?

did ghost phone it in on pre-donuts jay dilla's name?

it's just a lol quote, deej, not like haha gotcha especially

stop calling me dishonest fuckface

what 'backpedaling'

quote something relevent to the argument i.e. not 'oops reversed the release dates' so i can see how my argument has changed at all, please

"was that quote not about NEW ghostface records"

Yeah repeating arguments you made five years ago is totally worth doing. My bad!

did ghost phone it in on pre-donuts jay dilla's name?

― zvookster, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 9:25 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what teh fuck are you even trying to say here

hey can we just stop discussing wu-tang and/or anyone that has ever been associated w/ wu-tang ever

Yeah repeating arguments you made five years ago is totally worth doing. My bad!

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 9:27 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

not that this is worth arguing about either -- just feel like pointing out how dishonest u guys are when arguing

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 9:24 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

u basically said ghostface was coasting off j dilla's post-donuts fame

u basically said ghostface was coasting off j dilla's post-donuts fame

― zvookster, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 9:28 PM (17 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i never said this buddy. quote it

that's what rapping over donut instrumentals as a sop to h-h heads means

also what phoning it in on the back of a big name producer means

also give examples of my dishonesty or stfu, or come back with some "you're irish" lines, see how u feel

im sure that rapping over donuts instrumentals does in fact add to the aura of 'respectability' around this record. but my only argument was that the 'sop to real head fans' was by using dilla at all ... i dont know why you thought i meant he was carpetbagging on donuts fame but i never even implied that in this entire thread

ok is deej d4v1d dr4k3 or d4v1d 4ll3n? never been clear on this, never get a straight answer. dr4ke i remember being ok but 4ll3n i could totally imagine five years later being deej and i've never gotten an answer which is bizarre cuz neither have a rep to protect or anything so why hide it? whoever it is, d4v1d dr4k3 or d4v1d 4ll3n, apparently they write for pitchfork which makes the above maybe a bit funnier but still a bit sad. either way if you're a pfork reviewer, trust me noone is gonna put two and two together, nobody actually reads a pfork review far enough to get to the byline. unless you're newswire nobody knows who you are. and if you're amy phillips it explains alot. also remind me again - what's wrong w/ pandering?

It's the first.

Why does deej's legal name always get brought up in these threads? It's kind of mean.

as far as i could tell the point of contention was around whether or not dilla was a known quantity before or after donuts, and you were saying that he was unknown & not a bankable name & i was saying he was perfectly well known to the audience he was appealing to & that beats over donuts instrumentals would be a big deal to them, as would pete rock collabs & doom collabs. i never meant that ghost knew that donuts would be a cult sensation, but he obv knew that dilla had a niche real head audience. i thought it was a cynical maneuver at the time & i think dilla has done better beats, and ghost has picked better beats.

cuz blount is a dick sometimes?

hes kinda wrong, some readers check the byline & track me down to send LOL emails

wau what a surprise five hours later we're still not even discussing the album the thread is named after

you guys are experts at pulling things out of context -- was that quote not about NEW ghostface records

hey what's this thread called guys?

lol xpost

its fine i think zvookster & i found where we were misunderstanding i guess??

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/62/l_e9b232a30c4042aaa8e0f5108023cbbc.jpg

for real what a waste of time

I wish you people would refer to the Fishscale thread; I wanted to save this one to discuss how boring Apollo Kids is.

again what's wrong w/ pandering? the level of assumption and lack of curiosity coming from a critic apparently is really unbecoming. i'm not even going to go into a pfork writer tossing out pandering to indie kids as a clear evil, i'm gonna just hope that's some heavy tongue in cheek shit otherwise that's right out of a vonnegut novel (as far as i know, i'm not into scifi really).

dude have u seen the readers poll on rap vs. my top rap albums of the year. there is zero overlap

its not like i *planned* on hating this record, i love 'pretty toney,' i thought these songs were lacking, then i described where i thought it seemed to fall short

i mean, 'be easy,' is that even in the top 40 pete rock beats?

i'll finally ask, what does "sop" mean?

standard operating procedure?

sold other penguins?

again what's wrong w/ pandering? are you capable of expressing a thought or making an argument instead of just staking out a stance? is yr criticism this lazy?

i'm trying to think of examples where pandering works.

Like all those Fatboy Slim albums pandered to rock kids and they were pretty rad, I guess.

also no, have not read readers poll or yr top albums list. noone has. even the psycho that had the blog where he obsessed over pfork reviews moved on. ppl read the number. you're not really giving me a reason to think the ppl are wrong to stop there.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1348/1474378048_227b7b73e2.jpg

explaining where it fell short is fine, but assuming a bunch of the artist's intentions as being purely exploitive is where it gets O_o

I wanted to save this one to discuss how boring Apollo Kids is.

― Gus Van Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 9:43 PM (41 minutes ago) Bookmark

would've been a rousing thread, surely

http://thebruceblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/redneck-2.jpg

its not like i *planned* on hating this record

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:10 PM

i bet this suxx :D

― *plop*ism rules (deej), Friday, December 17, 2010 1:43 PM

^ha

Like all those Fatboy Slim albums pandered to rock kids and they were pretty rad, I guess.

first one didn't pander to rock kids, was rad

second one did pander to rock kids, was rad

third and fourth pandered to rock kids, weren't rad

(Boutique 1 didn't pander to rock kids, was rad

Beach 1 didn't pander to rock kids, haven't heard it

Beach 2 did pander to rock kids, haven't heard it

Beach 3 didn't pander to rock kids, haven't heard it)

i really just meant the one record

but thanks, lil ilxor

gosh i leave ilx for like 8 hours and this thread turns into a mothafuckin monster

fuckin ridickalous

(i love it tho)

its not like i *planned* on hating this record

― ich bin ein ilxor (deej), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:10 PM

i bet this suxx :D

― *plop*ism rules (deej), Friday, December 17, 2010 1:43 PM

― old man yells at cloud computing (am0n), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 10:38 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this was about two difft records

also no, have not read readers poll or yr top albums list. noone has.

― balls, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 10:18 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

its a list i posted on ilx u dork. i dont front like some big deal writer so u can stop acting like yr taking me down a peg or something cuz its basically pathetic

actually, i didnt even post it, jordan did, but w/e

again what's wrong w/ pandering? are you capable of expressing a thought or making an argument instead of just staking out a stance? is yr criticism this lazy?

― balls, Tuesday, January 4, 2011 10:16 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

how do you guys keep pulling out words context-free like this & pretending you're making some grand point?

in this case, pandering was offputting to me because he was pandering to a boring crowd of real heads & the end results were underwhelming. if they'd been great, i would have said he wasnt pandering, but made some kind of back-to-basics record or w/e. but then, im arguing w/ a troll who said i 'made no arguments instead of just staking out a stance' which as far as i can tell is the most meaningless possible statement ever so

explaining where it fell short is fine, but assuming a bunch of the artist's intentions as being purely exploitive is where it gets O_o

― i have been otm (bnw), Tuesday, January 4, 2011 10:20 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im not assuming artist's intentions at all -- im explaining the feeling given to me by the record, the synergy just isnt there, the songs are often not there, and i dont get the feeling that it was done out of love but rather out of allegiance to certain aesthetic ideology. because i cant explain why else he would have picked those particular beats, in most cases

i dont *know* thats true of course but i dont think there's anything wrong w/ saying that a 'fuck it' vibe pervades the record & that this makes it a more disappointing one for me.

is that an 'argument' or a 'stance'? maybe supertroll balls can tell us!

and if you're amy phillips it explains alot.

Will someone please keep Chuck Eddy away from the jailbait?

so you're not capable of making an argument or developing a thought and when asked to try to get crazy defensive - good to know deej! what do you do for a living deej? plz tell me you're not serious about giving this 'criticism' a go. also not shocked that 'expressing a thought /= taking a stance' is the 'most meaningless possible statement' 'as far as you can tell', it's like explaining calculus to a dog. reaction /= thought. posturing /= criticism. and again what's wrong w/ pandering?

u trying to get under my skin by dissing pfork is blindfold archery dude. im taking a break from ilx (dont get too excited, generic balls trolling not at all a driving factor) -- im not sure why opinions like these that ive expressed before on ilx w/out turning into giant clusterfucks now get so long & contentious -- obv theres a bit of 'controversy!' to any challop about a critically acclaimed record, and my approach is more confrontational/troll-y than many others but i dont think my issues w this one are particularly out of line -- im not sure when ilx became so defensive of tru school producers but im of the opinion that on fishscale critical acclaim for a set of default 'respectable' values seems like the only real unifying force behind the record (aside from the half which sounds like pretty toney, making for an even more disjointed listen). i love dilla & have since 'like water for chocolate' but there's no 'doinit' on this record, imo. this also isnt some harangue against backpack /underground ish in general, or pete rock, or mf doom, all of whom i own/love albums by; ive been just as critical of lazy production lineups on major label records, like 'the carter iii' or that era where every major label record was akon feature / swishahouse feature / jazze pha production / neptunes production / t.i. feature

i would think that those of u who have talked w/ me about rap in the past would know better that im not a kneejerk backpack hater, that my issues w/ this are more about its unseemly assertion that we enjoy it simply cuz its a compilation of respected names behind the boards. saying that it seems like a lazy giving-up moment for ghostface isnt that i claim to actually know his motivations or process, its merely the impression the record gives me by being a sum-less-than-parts collection of so-so traxx.

anyway, just gonna take a ilx vaca for a few, hope u guys dont start stanning for open mike eagle or something while im gone

i think the main problem we're having w/ yer argument (and everyone correct me if i'm wrong) is that there's a level of cynicism that you're insisting we should have when a successful major label rapper starts working with undie cats. To you that pandering, to most of us in 2006 that seemed novel and interesting. Intentional or not, taking that stance has an aura of "Get on my level."

That being said, I don't think the swisha/jazze/nep producer soup analogy fits because I can name 100 records from 2004-2007 that sounded like that and only ONE major label record that was fucking with Doom/Dilla/Pete Rock all in one swoop. Even when Busta would throw a Dilla song an an album it felt like a one-off.

I mean, Ghost could have easily gone the Method Man route and released Tical 5 Million-Billion with shitty producers all day. It wasn't pandering, it was a gamble that paid off. I mean, I think that Rae and Masta Killa albums leaning a lil more tru school these days has to do with the fact that Fishscale made it work.

i dont see how it made i work -- it went styrofoam. and the end result for rae is the same as it was for ghost -- pfork fest and rock the bells performance slots. ghost was already a waning major label rapper at this point, so i dont see the 'gamble' -- it seems to me that the production lineups on 'SC' and pretty toney were 'braver' for not using established brand names at all. and obviously major labels werent messing with doom/dilla/pete rock, i was saying this was the indie equivalent -- get the biggest producers in indie hip hop on your record & that crowd will blindly rep for it. (not saying you are doing this, but this is why im cynical about it -- that plus just not liking the end product)

alright ive clarified enough, out for real now lol

c u in 20 min

ha

when most major label rappers are on the wane they usually 1) try to rack up as many guest spots and R&B hooks as possible 2) Get as many people who can make fake, cheap versions of what made them hot. I wouldn't say it's "brave" that the new Sheek Louch album has beats by nobodys like Darius "Phonix" Barnes.

I mean, it's RARE that waning major label dude turns into an alterna-rap weirdo. The list is like, what, Masta Ace?

I mean it all comes down to Ghost's motivations, which we don't know and will never know. I personally think that 80s-bred Ghost was feeling the tense/trebly/cassette-damaged sounds of Dilla/Doom/Rock at the time. You think he was rubbing his hands together with some weird conspiracy to get pocket money from Fat Beats klingons who were already fucking with him.

I also recommend that deej stop using abbreviations and write in full sentences, to avoid everyone asking for clarification.

laugh out loud

aaaaanyway re: Apollo Kids

Troublemakers is the best track on here. Ghetto, Purified Thoughts, Superstar are all pretty good. then there's a bunch of half-assed filler. everybody agrees abt Handcuffin Them Hoes.

the end

"Purified Thoughts" and "Starkology" are my picks. Cohen was right about Black Thought scorching Ghost on "n tha Park"

http://bigghostnahmean.blogspot.com/2011/02/ayo-charlet-duboc-how-you-doin-boo-boo.html

Ayo whattup baby baby! This Big Ghost aka the black Tony Orlando transmittin live to yalls from the island of Staten nahmean. Ayo thanks for the love namsayin. The god is crazy touched by the tribute ya showin a nigga nahmean. Word is bond. Ayo but to keep shit real the god aint really mean no disrespect to the delicate nigga Drake or nothin like that namsayin. But at the same times a nigga gon speak his mind n shit nahmean. Word. Aint no secret that the nigga soft as baby shit namsayin. The nigga be makin Usher look like Kimbo Slice or some shit. The god aint expose the nigga tenderness or nothin that wasnt already shit the public knew bout nahmean. Aint like the god blew the nigga spot up like that. Word. Wasnt like hood niggas was talkin like ayo the nigga Drake a wildcard nigga dont nobody disrespect that nigga or he gon slap the fuckin veins out ya head nahmean. Wasnt like niggas was livin in fear of the corny nigga. Nah nah nah nah muthafuckas knew the nigga was a Calgon nigga from the jump. Muthafuckas could see the nigga was a Charmin nigga nahmean. You put that nigga between two graham crackers n stick him next to a campfire n the nigga gon turn to a smore n shit nahmeans. You slap the nigga five n he gon moisturize ya palms nahmean. I seen pictures of the nigga in the pillow aisle at JC Penny namsayin. Word bond. The nigga breath probably smell like baby powder namsayin. Nigga prolly cry tears of honey n shit. Word. Aint like the god let the cats out they bags n shit. Niggas was well aware he a styrofoam nigga from day 1 namsayin. The nigga prolly rock mittens when he hold a cold drink namsayin. Yalls already know the niggas pedigree. Nigga prolly got the mirror wit the little light bulbs surroundin it in his bathroom. He a fragile nigga. The nigga tender. You squeeze the nigga n Chanel no. 5 gon come out the nigga nostrils namsayin. The nigga manufactured by Gund n shit. Ayo the god aint make none the shit up. Nahmean. Aint like the god gone out his way to convince muthafuckas that the nigga soft. Nah the nigga need to worry bout hisself n not worry bout what Deini sayin nahmean. Nigga go film Ice Age 4 n dont worry bout the god namsayin. Do YOU nigga. But at the same time the god aint mean no harm like that nahmean. The god wish the nigga the utmost success n shit. Word.
Aight peace.

hahahahaha

You put that nigga between two graham crackers n stick him next to a campfire n the nigga gon turn to a smore n shit nahmeans.

^^^Best part.

You slap the nigga five n he gon moisturize ya palms nahmean.

they did wiz too

Ayo whattup this Deini the Wally Champ namsayin aka Stapleton’s Finest. Ayo I aint really got no problems wit the nigga Wizz Kalifrah nahmeans. Matter fact I aint really know who the nigga was til bout 5 minutes ago n shit namsayin. But yo jus so i aint step on this nigga toes or nothin like that…cos the god sincerely wish the little nigga the utmost success n alla that but yo Imma hafta keep it really 100 wit yalls. This Roll Up shit kinda soft namsayin. By that a nigga mean you could probably rock a cryin baby to sleep wit this shit nahmeans. This some shit for the nurseries n shit namsayin. Ayo a nigga listen to this shit at the wrong time n he liable to start hangin one them posters wit the little babies dressed like animals n vegetables n shit on they walls. A nigga might go cop one them calendars wit the kittens dressed up like they firemen n hang that shit in the hallway namsayin. Ayo this shit be like the shit yall hear in Calgon commercials n shit. Shit sounds like it was produced by muthafuckin Yanni or some shit. Nigga soundin like he gon get muthafuckin Enya n Barbra Streisand to jump on the remix n shit. This like some shit they play in the room when bitches be givin birth n shit. What niggas supposed to do with this shit light candles n soak in a tub by they fuckin selves n shit? Nahmeans. Bitches gon think they can slap a nigga around if they hear a nigga knockin this shit voluntarily n shit. Word bond. A nigga gon grow titties listenin to this kinds a shit. Ayo muthafuckin Lubriderm called n wanna know if they can bottle ya soft ass song nigga. Muthafuckin Hostess wanna know if they can use ya soft ass song to fill Twinkies n shit. Fuck outta here wit this shit nigga. Ayo word bond Staten island niggas dont play this shit son nahmeans. Word. Ayo we punch the sidewalk when we happy nigga. Thats a good day nigga! Ayo we eat broken glass when we in a good mood nigga! Thats real talk. Niggas be shootin at each other when we be sayin hi to each other to keep niggas sharp. We test each others reflexes n keep niggas on they toes n shit nahmeans! Thats love nigga. Thats real family values muthafucka! Yall soft serve niggas dont know nothin bout that. This some shit for niggas to braid they other niggas hair to. Word.Aight peace.

poll

cool Sunday-morning-while-watching-Barefoot-Contessa thread.

Nahmean

Couple bum tracks aside i feel like this was ghost's last good solo album (i do like wu block tho)