The world has gone musically mad

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While I accept that classics can get robbed by the advertising sorld to sell widjits, I can not get my head around the little known 'I Know' by The Fall advertising Cars

sonicred, Tuesday, 27 August 2002 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

What what what? Surely no-one's head is big enough to get around that. Which cars, BTW?

OleM (OleM), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

cars that fall fans would like to drive

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I believe Mark's "answer" merely reinforces my question: Which cars???

OleM (OleM), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Maseratis!

Nate Patrin, Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.daimi.au.dk/~jeppe/doc/images/lego_3.gif

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Thats more of Ween fans car. Fall fans drive those silly three-wheeled boxy ones you can only get in Europe.

Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

hence the use of the phrase "would like to", unless all words mean something different on custosworld

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

mark you say that as if it was not commonly known

jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

o dear I think I see a truly epic thread in the brewing

J0hn Darn1elle, Tuesday, 27 August 2002 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Nine Inch Nails plugging Vodafone.

Graham (graham), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Whattabout the Clash selling Jaguars? Thats some serious punk rock action! ( "They said that we was trash, but the name's Crass, not Clash, they can stuff their punk credentials cuz it's them that takes the cash" ) At least Iggy only sold sweaty sneakers, but prob cuz he's a cheetah and cheetahs hate jaguars.

Scott Seward, Tuesday, 27 August 2002 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

no offense to anybody, mabe ad-bashing isn't really the point of the thread but mark e could sell his mother to Hitler for all I care. I hope he buys a nice boat or something.

when will people get over the "I heard a SONG in an advertisment" shock shock horror horror routine?

As I see it,

a) 99.9% of the world will hear it and NOT KNOW it's a Fall song or who the Fall are, or maybe maaybe think 'hmmm...that's that band whatsisname used to like, the Farm, innit?'. It's a tree falling in the forest for just about everybody.

b) The clued-in kids who hear a Fall song in a car commercial now have to decide for themselves about What The Fall Means and then have to grapple with the fact that they live in a capitalist society where everything - even songs and bitter iconoclastic singers - has his price, and they will be wiser and more wary for it. (& hopefully set about raising their own prices now so they won't have to sell their songs or whatever they don't want to be selling when the dark days come.)

c.) the remainder of the world already know all about the Fall and are probably in self-backslap mode knowing they were right ALL ALONG about hell's proximity to a handbasket.

d.) the guy who bought the rights to the Fall song was probably a fan, thinking, 'poor ol' mark could probly use the cheese. Maybe he'll make a really good record if he's got 3 squares in im'

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

no offense to anybody, mabe ad-bashing isn't really the point of the thread but mark e could sell his mother to Hitler for all I care. I hope he buys a nice boat or something.

when will people get over the "I heard a SONG in an advertisment" shock shock horror horror routine?

As I see it,

a) 99.9% of the world will hear it and NOT KNOW it's a Fall song or who the Fall are, or maybe maaybe think 'hmmm...that's that band whatsisname used to like, the Farm, innit?'. It's a tree falling in the forest for just about everybody.

b) The clued-in kids who hear a Fall song in a car commercial now have to decide for themselves about What The Fall Means and then have to grapple with the fact that they live in a capitalist society where everything - even songs and bitter iconoclastic singers - has his price, and they will be wiser and more wary for it. (& hopefully set about raising their own prices now so they won't have to sell their songs or whatever they don't want to be selling when the dark days come.)

c.) the remainder of the world already know all about the Fall and are probably in self-backslap mode knowing they were right ALL ALONG about hell's proximity to a handbasket.

d.) the guy who bought the rights to the Fall song was probably a fan, thinking, 'poor ol' mark could probly use the cheese. Maybe he'll make a really good record if he's got 3 squares in im'

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

it sounds like lush is selling levis now too, or it could be chicklet? i couldn't place the song immediately.

keith, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 01:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i never thought of lush as reeking of artistic integrity, maybe i'm wrong

ron (ron), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 04:20 (twenty-two years ago)

The way I see it as an artist I think the odds are stacked up against you enough without forcing yourself to exist in obscurity stroke poverty ad infinitum. And therefor, though it pains me at times, to flog yer work to the advertising boys and girls for a few bucks to tide you over is alright with me. Granted, The Fall aren't exacty on the bread line but you know, it's not as if they made a real mint either. This one could run and run I suppose, and I'm not for one nanosecond condoning the kind of blanket sell-off of one's art as practiced by Moby for example...

As Fritz asks: "when will people get over the "I heard a SONG in an advertisment" shock shock horror horror routine?" Well, it took me a long time to get over it but when it comes to it, why not make money from your art - to believe that to do so in some way nullifies your credibility or integrity is naive and insensitive sentiment, nine times out ot ten posited by the critic rather than the creator.

Roger Fascist, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 06:56 (twenty-two years ago)

if i worked in advertising i would choose my favourite records to be on ads. i would like more people to hear them. i would like them to make some $ from what they had done too

i know people who are displeased by a record by a relatively unknown band they like being used on an advert. these people work good jobs (or are on a career ladder) that give them a comfortable living. they seem not to want the band they like perhaps also to have a more comfortable and secure existence. i cannot take these peoples criticisms seriously, because they have no problem with doing it themselves. perhaps if they lived in a tent on communal ground and didn't enjoy the comforts commerce can bring to some people then i might take them more seriously. but i doubt it. i find this sort of hypocrisy a little difficult to swallow

gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 07:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Gareth is OTM - people in adland are (alternative-conservative) music fans just like you!! That's got not much to do with the ethics of bands allowing their songs to be used in ads, or to do with what happens to songs when they are, but it explains why these songs - it's not some ad-monster conspiracy to stamp on integrity's frail flame!

Isn't it "Touch Sensitive"? Sarah and I saw the ad the other night and I thought, oh, there'll be trouble at t'ILM over this.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 07:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Every once in awhile, i have to put myself in the artists' shoes to remember... they don't listen to their own records. So the really obscure songs they have probably performed less than ten times and have listened to twice. They hardly care about some of their songs - as opposed to the fans who have memorized every breath-ah. So when someone says, "can we buy the rights to that song - we'll give you a bucket of cash." the answer is going to be, "What song? phwyah... whatever. Bucket of cash, you say? ...And I wrote it, did I?"

dave (Dave225), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 09:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, nevermind. I haven't seen the ad, but the original post said the song was "I Know" (which I don't know.)

But from the Fall website:
"Yes, that is Touch Sensitive on the Vauxhall Corsa TV advert."

.. my diatribe still stands though .. the artists care less about the songs than you do.

dave (Dave225), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 10:09 (twenty-two years ago)

if you think being in an ad spoils the song, then you think less of the song the the artist does

this entire panic is about the inability to grant to music the power you're claiming it has: basically it argues that the ad is the only art form with any force

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

In Portugal, a mobile phone company adopted a Mercury Rev song as THE theme for this massive tv/radio campaign that's been going on for ages.

This sort of behaviour should be celebrated. In fact, I think I'd happily embrace the theory that advertisers have a wider musical knowledge (and love for the thing)than, say, 89.6% of the radio DJ's, music journalists and record company employees.

jml, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

(apologies for the double post up there. my computer was acting a little nutty last night.)

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Would people be happier if advertisers commissioned new music to be used exclusively in ads like Absolut Vodka does with visual artists? It was relatively common in the 60's (The Who's "Coke after Coke after Coke after CO-CA-CO-LA!" jingle is as punk & pop art as anything they ever did), and Gershwin did original jingles live on the radio years before that... I guess advertisers would lose some of the cultural cache of well-known songs (but if they're buying numbers by The Fall, then that's not always what they're after), but they could play up the "patron of the arts" angle and - one hopes - artists could do something self-mocking and subversive and get some free studio time.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 12:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I like gareth's post a lot. maybe the idea these people have is that it's ok for them because they're just 'doing a job', not 'making art'? unless they're doing something more obviously wrong like murdering babies or dumping toxic sludge, most people probably don't think the job they hold has much of a moral dimension. but once the job is any kind of ART the moral dimension seems to come into play almost automatically. (or, some kind of autonomy-of-art deal where a failure to be autonomous ends up being more or less a moral failure anyway).

Josh (Josh), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

mark s: "this entire panic is about the inability to grant to music the power you're claiming it has: basically it argues that the ad is the only art form with any force "

That nails it, thank you. Songs on adverts bother me around the edges, but really if the song is good, it's good. "Lust for Life" has been used for so much (it's now in cruise ads or something) but it doesn't bother me because it makes me dance. The ad and the song get put in the gladitorial ring! Iggy wins always! Some songs may be too fragile to survive the combat.

Although I would say that it would bother me if someone like Neil Young let a song be used because he's railed against such things in the past...just because I don't want artists I like to be hypocrites.

teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually another of the reasons i am VERY VERY circumspect and unpersuaded abt the "moralism of unspoiled art" is that i have worked in way too many arts-related orgs where basically all this great wodge of Bogus Anti-Commercial Politics is entirely used to get people (never the blessed artists themselves, generally young and bless-em still idealistic-naive semi-fans of said artists) to work all kinds of hours for NO extra money IN THE NAME OF THE CAUSE.

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"At least Iggy only sold sweaty sneakers"

And Carribean cruises. Shit, at least some punks can afford a beat-up mid '80s XJS.

Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Would people be happier if advertisers commissioned new music to be used exclusively in ads

Yes Fritz, I think that is what should happen.

Scary to be the only voice of dissent, but I've got problems with the general 'anything goes' attitude here. I'm picking up a sense of 'Music? Feh, just another tin of beans, to be used as anyone sees fit in any context, no-one really owns it other than the people who can sell the rights or afford to buy it, and anyone who gets upset by a sense of personal meaning or personal relevance or even it's representational efficiency being changed by encountering it in a different social context is just naive/sentimental, and it's time to GET WITH THE PROGRAM.'

I thought that part of why we're here is out of a LOVE of music that can be very 'naive' and 'sentimental' and time/place/use specific. There's more to 'ownership' than legal contracts and a big fat cheque book - that's part of what the whole business (ha) is built on the first place.
If you want music for an advert - get some made. The use of 'source' material seems a lot more questionable to me. It reminds me of that tiresome quality of certain film soundtracks to press the nostalgia-trigger of prospective viewers, in a way not unlike 'School Disco'. I also think it's really lazy and somehow maybe even degenerate to use music that was created to resonate with 'naive' youthful expressions of personal dissatisfaction, or vague socio-political resistance, as part of a bloody ad campaign. There are more than enough internal contradictions in the production/selling of widgets purporting to be about anti-widgetdom or non-widgety areas of life - this kind of practice is like plastering YOU SEE IT IS ALL JUST FOR SALE AND ISN'T THAT GREAT all over a more difficult and conflicted set of words.

Tom - maybe what you say is true, but from the outside even that might look different: an 'Oh I can really USE this now' idea, an implicit mature sniggering at their youthful foolishness, of 'HERE's yer revolution right here pal! Glad I wised up!'
I mean, do they really have the same relationship to the widget they're trying to sell as to the music they've chosen?

I don't think it's necessary to get engaged with caring about the financial wellbeing of the creators of a piece of music you like - you made the only deal you needed to with them when you bought it - IF you paid for it of course you bunch of anti-corporate bootleggers hahaha. In fact, depending on the function it has performed in your life and the cultural role it was purporting to play, this could be interpreted the other way round - 'you fucker many of us bought and paid for that song and now you've gone and spoilt it for us'.

mark s - I really hesitate to question, but I don't know about what you said: I don't know what kind of contextless 'power' a piece of music can have?
Can't this be just a matter of personal connectivity and conditioning?
Isn't there any music you love that carries some cultural/personal meaning to YOU that you feel would somehow be sullied by a more generic use - do you really appreciate everything you like in that kind of isolated or socially-abstracted or impervious-to-recontextualisation way - or is it that there's no context for it that could conceivably piss you off?

Ray M (rdmanston), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Being a reactionary abt this question, I try to avoid discussions of it now, but to mark s I must say: given your let's-look-at-the-facts tendencies (which I admire), how do you explain that so many people just sort of instinctively twitch when they hear a song they like in an advertisement? Do you say that their reaction is "wrong" or "misinformed"? It seems in most cases to be an instant, unmediated reaction.

J0hn Darn1elle, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think most people do instinctively twitch when they hear in ad in a song. Just people who are obsessive about music. They do this because music plays a strong role in their sense of identity. Hearing music outside of the context they have built around it violates that sense of identity. Hence they get upset.

Ben Williams, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"ad in a song" haha

Ben Williams, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, why doesn't seeing your favorite CD in a record store with a big sticker saying "$14.99" on it make you feel like it's a can of beans?

Ben Williams, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Trying to post from work=poorly proofed posts

" a song in an ad"

Jeezus

J0hn Darn1elle, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

...and poorly parsed replies: thought the error was mine not yours, never mind all this

yeargh

J0hn Darn1elle, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

John: I think that folks who so react have one of the two following motivations, neither of which require (or would survive) much analysis:

1. Hey, that was my song! They gave it to the TEEVEE! I WANT MY SPECIAL SOCIAL IDENTIFIER BACK!!

2. Hey, he said that song was about revolution, and now I'm supposed to identify it with tampons! THE ARTIST LIED TO ME!

My favorite example of these reactions being shot down quickly was the licensing of the minutemen's "Love Dance" and "Corona" to Volvo and MTV's Jackass respectively.

The fans: HEY! What happened to "Let the products sell themselves, fuck advertizing?"

Mike Watt: D. Boon's dad is dying and has no insurance. It's a way for D. to help his father even though D's dead.

Fans: *silence*

Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

This reminds me of a piece that John Densmore (drummer of the Doors) wrote in "The Nation" a few weeks back. Basically, he was patting himself on the back for steadfastly refusing to allow Doors' songs to be licensed for use in ads, even though companies had made $1million+ offers. He portrayed it as a matter of loyalty to the spirit of Morrison, who had made an early decision not to allow Doors' songs to be used in ads, as well as loyalty to the fans. Here's a link to it. Apparently, Manzarek has frequently argued in favor of licensing the songs, but Krieger and Densmore have been hold-outs. At one point, the article quotes Krieger: "When I heard from one fan that our songs saved him from committing suicide, I realized, that's it--we can't sell off these songs."

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

now if only Densmore would take a stand against Doors songs being used as inspiration by teen poets

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

(by teen poets I mean Ian Astbury.)

(why are my jokes always 15 years late?)

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

John, I too react pretty badly to BAD ads using songs I like, though it's less the association with "product" than outraged offence at the mise-en-scene, poor script, just bad conception all round: in other words, it's on a case by case basis, I guess. The "Venus in Furs" car-tyres ad of a few years back (dir.Tony Banks?) was just fkn tremendous, because song and vignette — loads of supercreepy people shot through some colour-filter, car drives through loads of ball-bearings — wound into one another in an interesting way. The trailer for Buffalo 66 completely transformed the way I heard Heart of the Sunrise: it enhanced it.

I think yr argt on an earlier thread, that some other fan's (mis)use can detract from the specific way you want to hear the song, is perfectly fair in the short term: but the problem's no worse than eg being in an eatery on romantic assignation and them playing Carcass all night, or someone giving away the ending of a film you haven't seen yet: it's about control of context and atmosphere, and sometimes that's a pain having to strategise to avoid yr fun being spoiled for an evening, or a month, or whatever. But the ad will run a few weeks then vanish, and then you'll have the song back forever: if it *really* fails to re-establish itself then it has to be a weakness of the song. [haha insert boilerplate ilm-cliche mockery of n.drake, j.morrison, j.strummer etc etc]

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Association with product can actually be a useful de-idealisation strategy: if the song survives being doused in heinz beans, then yr attraction to it is concrete (in other words, related to you and the song) rather than merely sentimental (related to the context in which you first heard it).

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm actually getting a kick out of Target using the Suicide Commandos' "Complicated Fun" (albeit a cover, I think) for its TV spots. Maybe it'll get Make A Record a wider reissue or something.

Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

but hey mark isn't the context in whch you first heard it concrete, related to you and the song, etc?

Josh (Josh), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Random things:

Nick Cave always says something about how he gets letters from fans saying how one of his songs was played at a friend's/brother's/whoever's funeral etc, and that he therefore can't taint the thing by selling a song to an ad. Which sums up the dilemna, really. It's not so much that allowing this kind of use spoils the music for the MAKER of it, but rather it's about what it means to the people who loved the song before it was everywhere. And that's another question. Does artistic purity have to include respect for fans, or is that irrelevant? Isn't it useful sometimes to deliberately piss the fans off?

I liked how Chumbawumba (and I don't normally go about liking them) took the cash for an ad recently and immediately gave it to some group who were involved in campaigning AGAINST the corporation in question. I like it because it highlights the way in which some principles may be self-defeating. If you turn down an ad, then some other band with equally funky music won't, and the ad will still get made. If you do take the money, then at least you're in control of where it goes. This 'the ad will still get made' principle also applies to bands with no political point to make. I can well understand, even if it bugs me, when a band not selling an outrageous amount of records accepts an offer to receive £50,000 or whatever for no work.

It is annoying when bands try to be cool by not selling their music to ads in the UK / US , but rake it in in Japan etc where they think it doesn't matter.

Eyeball Kicks, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Apparently John Zorn has done tons of ads in Europe! For what, Spikey Throat Shredders???

"Get a Move On" by Mr Scruff was a song I'd never heard until it appeared on a Volvo ad a couple of years ago - now it's one of my fave songs ever.

I had no concrete relationship with "Everyday People" but I liked the song and it made me imagine this whole world of celebratory soul music that I hadn't twigged to yet. It didn't survive the Toyota ads, which were NOT grate -- roughly k-zillion interchangeable car ad templates -- it was the sheer force of repetition. Repetition can do things that no mystical vibey connection could.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

The ad and the song get put in the gladitorial ring!

I get what this is saying, but not all ads are that way. Mark mentioned the Venus In Furs, but don't tell me the surfing horses damaged Phat Planet for you - I am perfectly happy that the song reminds me of the gorgeous ad, as well as sounding fantastic in its own right. There doesn't have to be an opposition at all. I've not come across the Fall or Clash ads, and they are both bands I love, but I'll be surprised if they trouble me at all. Rubbish adverts won't damage the songs for me, but I've noticed before that I seem to have less in the way of contextual, sentimental attachments to songs than most people.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

If people are so turned off by music in advertising, then a logical conclusion is that advertising in general is bad.. advertising is manipulative and commercial, etc... And if (the collective) you have a problem with it, why are you watching it? You want your cake & eat it too. You can't take the high ground about music in advertising being evil if you voluntarily subject yourself to it. i.e. Listen to more music and be content in your own world - because that song that's just been compromised is only the "soundtrack to your life" if you make it that. It could just as well be "Do You Believe in Magic" if you let it (or if you were older.) And I'm sure someone somewhere is still lamenting that his theme song ("Magic") became a shill.

dave (Dave225), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

As in the following?

Do you believe in magic
And burgers that talk
Chicken McNuggets that can go for a walk...

Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the current ad campaign for Clark's shoes is fantastic. So far I've seen two versions which use, respectively, Plastic Bertrand and OMD. Really brilliant interplay of visuals and music. Neither song was any kind of favourite of mine but they were definitely enhanced by this new context. I suppose it helps if you like the product though. I think I hate all ads for mobile phones, cars and any kind of financial service/institution. Ads for those things can't seem to avoid being nauseating.

David (David), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Clarkes-wise, I've *still* only seen the little girl, not the little boy: I was crying with laughter the first time, while trying to describe it to a friend on the phone.

Josh I meant to go back into that bracket and put a "only" in, but I forgot.

I hated those surfing horses, but that was the stupid voiceover, I liked the music lots, the voiceover didn't spoil it because it was too good to be spoiled.

Is there a UK vs US break-down here at all? Everyone knows the best ads in the UK are the ones where afterwards you can;t work out what was being sold, you just had a brilliant time watching. I always liked Clarkes shoes anyway cz in the shop when I was little they had a sliding measuring device made of metal and it felt nice on your foot. In Machynlleth there used at be an x-ray machine in the shoeshop! You could see the bones of yr feet!!

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

the horses were shit, the music was shit, guiness is shit, black and white is shit, but it all pales into insignificance next that twatty voiceover

gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I always liked Clarkes shoes anyway cz in the shop when I was little they had a sliding measuring device made of metal and it felt nice on your foot.

Yeah I loved putting my foot on those too. They have an updated computerised version now. Same idea but 'hi-tech sensors' work out how big the foot is.

David (David), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Ray - I don't think there's a mature sniggering at youthful foolishness *at all* - I don't think there's any irony involved mostly, it's more "if this is to be a cool ad, it needs cool sounds". Actually what's happening with ads - and what's bad about ads - is just a magnification of what happens with a lot of elitist music fans: they assume that people WON'T recognise the cool sounds and will think that an average late-period Fall track is mysterious and exciting - there's the same kind of didactic impulse at work as when '1200CD' people tell '12CD' people what they *should* be listening to. (Or to put it another way, nobody gets upset when an S Club song gets used in an ad, despite the fact that the S Club song was bought and loved by many more people than the Fall song and so presumably many more people will have their personal context ripped away!)

That all said, I was careful in my post to suggest that ad people being music fans doesn't excuse what they do to music, any more than rock writers being music fans excuses what THEY do to music. I am often a bit freaked out when an ad uses a song I like but it's more to do with the possibility of overplay and the context-changing, and as Mark S says it comes right in a couple of months (or a couple of years) or it's a weak song. It's worse I think for people who hear the song *first* in an ad context - I've never, after 10 years, been able to hear "Should I Stay Or Should I Go" outside the jeans ad I first heard it in, but then I hated it when I first heard it in the ad - maybe if I'd liked it I'd have built up my own context...

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I was kind of amused about "Touch Sensitive"'s inclusion in this campaign considering Mark E Smith's past (agreeable) comments about the car being simply an extension of the penis. However it wasn't half as funny as hearing The Fall's "Victoria" as the theme tune to Channel 4's Victoria Beckham documentary a couple of years ago.

tacit, Thursday, 29 August 2002 11:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Or to put it another way, nobody gets upset when an S Club song gets used in an ad, despite the fact that the S Club song was bought and loved by many more people than the Fall song and so presumably many more people will have their personal context ripped away!)

Thanks, Tom. That's what I was trying to say....

dave (Dave225), Thursday, 29 August 2002 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmmmmmm.
Maybe I need a booklet like:
'Dude, Who Moved My Song? - Learning how to accept the necessity of context change in today's market-driven world'.

No - I agree there are some good & thought-provoking points being articulated above. Too busy at work just now to respond though - and it takes me ages to figure out the words anyway. I might try later.

But I think I was (still am to a degree) very much an 'obsessive' in the way that Ben Williams has described, at least about a certain type/period of music. I thought/hoped there might be more of us around.

(Tom - point taken. Maybe I've been adversely affected by once knowing some TV types, directors/producers/researchers, who seemed to have this horrible 'Oh I can USE that' mentality running all the time in their head. Cultural Hyenas.)

Ray M (rdmanston), Thursday, 29 August 2002 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark you are so right about the slidey foot measuring machine, it felt great! Have you seen the little boy advert yet? You are right it is the best advert on telly rar rar and I dance like the little gurl sometimes.

Sarah (starry), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with Mark. If you can only like a song because of context, because of a particular association, then the maker of the song should feel no guilt in invading your sentimentality with a horde of chicken nuggests. And I'd prebably rather eat a chicken nugget than have your sentimentality, for what that's worth. Artist would be doing me a solid, no doubt.

I always try to break any associations I have with music, to see it afresh and try out a new association for a while. That's how you keep your focus on THE MUSIC, and not nostalgia. This is why even old folk who used to be alternative so often don't see value in new stuff: they forgot to keep it real.

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Depends on the song. Depends on the ad. Depends on the group. Depends on the general familiarity of the song.

Take The Clash fer instance: they based their entire image around being hardcore revolutionaires who despise consumer society (that they're a part of it doesn't matter here, since it's the image we're talking about, not reality) - of course their fans are gonna get angry when their music is used in a car ad!

(To say nothing about how spectacularly inept the ad itself was- "THIS CAR WILL MAKE YOU FEEL BRITISH!!" Does *anyone* in the USA really crave that?)

Compare that with the Nick Drake commercial for Golf- Nick's image was/is all about a semi-mystical connection to nature and the will to be diferent than others. The ppl who made the Golf commercial seemed to be aware of that and made their product accordingly. In this case I'd say there's no reason for anyone to feel shocked/disgusted/betrayed by the commercial, since it respected the artist's image (regardless of how silly/stupid/hateful you personaly think that artist's image is.)

I didn't mind it when they used "Should I Stay Or Should I Go?" for jeans either, because there's nothing in that song that implies some sort of rebellion or at least discontent against consumer society; but when Strummer calls for "the underworld" to purchase cars, I feel I have the right to be pissed off.

There's also the overplay factor- Vodafone uses "Bohemian Like You" by The Dandy Warhols to advertise for cell phones in Europe, and though the ads provide at least a decent facismile of what ppl would generally consider the group to be "about", it still pisses me off 'cos I had ALREADY played the hell out of that tune, and now I've heard it so many times that I am truly sick of it forever. But I suspect that's another thread...

Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 11 September 2002 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Many respondents here seem to have reduced 'meaning' to simply some kind of 'Darling-They're-Playing-Our-Tune' process of 'association' ref. a bunch of Pavlovian dogs - if that's all there is to it then we are indeed in trouble and deserve to be reconditioned. But is that really the only alternative way of viewing this issue?
There is no need to 'only' like a song because of its context in order to dislike a particular context for a song.

Congratulations on your nuggetism, but I'd quite like to know what you actually DO when you keep your focus on 'THE MUSIC' - do you blot out all interpretive processes of representation in some way, such that you just hear some kind of abstract sound-blob that literally means 'nothing in particular' to you?

I'd also like to know what 'keep it real' means - it sounds as though your definition would include cheerful and almost enthusiastic acceptance of one of your favourite songs being used to promote anything at all.

Ray M (rdmanston), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Surely if you are the sort of person who objects to songs being used in ads it is because you in some way dislike advertising - so why not avoid it anyway. Which is fine I certainly don't like it and when i watch TV I keep the remote handy and mute it for ads and put the CD player on and then read a bit of the paper - sure, sometimes I miss bits of the show I was watching but I at least reclaima bit of my psychic space and don't associate Nick Drake or whoever with whatever shit someone was trying to sell me.

tigerclawskank, Wednesday, 11 September 2002 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

tigerclawskank: In my case, it's because as mark s noted, some commercials are actually quite entertaining and funny enough to make you forget about the actual product in the first place. That, and I never can find the remote.

Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 11 September 2002 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Surely if you are the sort of person who objects to songs being used in ads it is because you in some way dislike advertising

Someone said this earlier - but I don't think that has to follow. This isn't about disliking advertising, it's about acknowledging that something more important than petulance or 'sentimentality' can be involved if people do react adversely to certain songs being used in its service. I suppose ultimately it's about what music does/can/is supposed to MEAN to us, about how we use or are used by it, about whether all modes of perception/consumption are equally valuable, about what the nature of our appreciation actually IS.

SOMEBODY - HELP - IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE ?

I at least reclaim a bit of my psychic space and don't associate Nick Drake or whoever with whatever shit someone was trying to sell me.
Well tigger, according to many on this thread, this implies you don't really like ND atall....strange isn't it?

Ray M (rdmanston), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I suppose if the commercial were for some product you really wish your favorite artist hated as much as you do: then that would be a more valid reason to dislike the situation than someone's getting nothing more out of a song than a window into their golden age. But you know it's no use getting your undies in a knot over the percieved faults in taste of your idols: where would I be if I let it get to me that Avril Lavigne tops Travis Morrison's list of the current best songs of all time? Just be tough about it, people. I object to all this simpering, as it is simpering, and even more to the indignation: you don't have a right to an artist just because a song means something to you.

Sure by 'THE MUSIC' I mean the notes. I really try to keep things limited to the notes. I enjoy the other stuff (lyrics, album art, associated experiences, whatever -- though really notes are where it's at) but I keep an eye out for the other stuff becoming more important to me than the notes. And do please offer some other reasons for disliking new contexts enough to call the world musically mad.

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno if anyone has brought this up before (should read up, but I'm on the clock) (and maybe it's a bit pedestrian). All args here center on the listener, my songs, my reception of image, this thing that I love, or on the culture, on "hip capital," on ad people being cooler than radio people, what does it mean for us all...

But, good Christ, what about the bands? It's a difficult and risky life being a musician, even with some moderate success penury is only a blink away, and every other link in the chain of production is designed to take the fruits of your work from you. God forbid you get sick (esp in the US). Who among you would turn down a raise where you work?

People in my circle of friends sneered, rightly enough, at the suburban-looking teenagers who called out "Gap ad!" at a Low show last winter, but all I could think was the Gap paid for Al and Mimi's kid's immunizations or something.

Of course, the stones taking 12 mil from Microsoft for "Start Me Up" is...no that doesn't really bother me either.

g.cannon (gcannon), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Instead of arguing on the basis that there might be.

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Right. So people, try to conterbalance your devastation that your marriage to a song has been violated, with the thought that a band you should care for is being rewarded and recognised.

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't see why caring obsessively about music need involve caring obsessively about how/why other people hear/use the music, Ray. And I don't see why a use of a song you like to sell a product you don't should be any more than a short-term slight. You're the one whose position implies that tigerclaw doesn't really like Nick Drake if he can shrug off its Volvo use, I think.

Something that stops me getting too unhappy is that the song already is a commodity i.e. I have bought it myself and have already had to go through the (so habitual now as to be subconscious) adjustment between commercial-transaction and role-in-my-life. All that happens when the song appears in a new commercial context is that I have to do that again.

You're also, Ray, characterising the life-context argument as 'sentimentality' etc etc - no not at all, we're saying it's hugely important and strong and worthwhile for music to play that kind of role, just that music isn't damaged much by what other people do - is that so hard to believe?

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 16:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Ray was just referring to my characterising of the life-context as sentimentality, sure. I bet he would never do himself.

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

do it himself

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry my arg *doesn't* centre on "me and my response", it centres on the question of the power of the song itself

Since Ray's argument seems to be (OK this is the cartoon version, a bit) that all adverts DO have power to affect how you hear but all songs don't (or at least, their power is catastrophically weaker), I can't work out what it is he's mourning.

phil masstransfer jumped on me last time for generalising this next point too far, but i think we sometimes hate the easy-target "marketing people" because they are actually responding in a *very similar way to us*, and we don't like that: viz they like this song they have heard, and assume other people like them will like it too, and they in fact act in a proprietorial way towards it, as if they own it and can do what they like with it

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I've read these many articulate and reasonable arguments about why it shouldn't bother us to hear a song we like used in an advertisement, but I can't get over this sense I have that there is still something tacky about it. It's hard to express, but I think it's bound up with some diffuse ideas about the purpose and value of artistic expression: that art should somehow be above the contradictions and imperfections of everyday commerce. I realize that purchasing an album is an act of commerce (as is selling it), but it's an act which has become ritualized to the point that we no longer think about it (as Tom pointed out). Implicit in that act is an acceptance of the idea that the artist deserves monetary compensation for their work - so why does it seem tacky when they augment that income by licensing the song for other uses? Perhaps, as Mark suggested, our feelings are not as high-minded as we'd like to they are. Perhaps it is we who are degrading and commodifying the song by thinking that we, the listener, have purchased exclusive rights to it, and feeling cheated when we discover that it isn't only "ours" any more. But I think there is more to it than that. There is a subliminal message that the music fan receives when an artist allows their song to be used in an advertisement. Perhaps the artist doesn't mean to say it, but the listener hears it anyway: "This song was just a jingle all along. You thought it meant something more than 'Buy! Buy! Buy!' - well, it didn't. The joke's on you. In today's world, everything has a price. So wise up." Of course, it may have been incredibly innocent for the listener to feel that way - but that innocence goes to the heart of why music can move us so much in the first place.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

(quite right, it doesn't, I read up further...)

Serious question: To whom does it all belong?

g.cannon (gcannon), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

"This song was just a jingle all along." Of course it was, but for what?

underneath our contempt for capital's use of culture, isn't there some uneasiness about pop music as a whole? Pieces of music, that, even if an ad strips them of any irony or depth, were successes because of their immediate pleasurability, their reach, their cogent mood? Is it any surprise that they are used this way?

I don't think it's at all childish to feel betrayed by seeing these things happen...but I don't see it going away, either.

g.cannon (gcannon), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

The stuff about wishing your fav artist hated product x - might be an issue for some, but not something I'd consider at all: 'idols' just don't figure.

'THE MUSIC' = 'the notes'. But that really doesn't get us much further, does it? Maybe the idea might be that within frameworks of cultural codes and physiological functions and natural soundscapes certain 'notes' might be generated with certain timbres then combined and chained into structures which have some kind of semi-representational meaning? I repeat - how do you listen? Is there no metaphor or representation for you in music, is it all just socio-economic context or perceptual-gridding of sounds into patterns? These are perfectly valid dimensions of listening, but they're not the only way to listen, and there's nothing more 'real' about them. (The 'other stuff' you describe as possibly enjoyable but ultimately irrelevant also includes lyrics - that may seem a strange dismissal to many: sometimes they are sort of what the song is about)

And do please offer some other reasons for disliking new contexts enough to call the world musically mad. Instead of arguing on the basis that there might be.

I didn't say the world was musically mad – I think the title is about the unexpectedness of the Fall song/ad combo, which has led to a more general discussion of 'appropriateness' of band material in adverts – this ‘appropriateness’ includes more than just aesthetic notions of ‘it sounds like the product looks’- some advertising works on subtler and broader levels than that anyway (‘lifestyle’ and ‘aspiration’ and all other kinds of stuff that Tom will know loads more about) and is I suspect probably using these same subtleties in the functions of pop/rock music when it purloins them - and for many of us music appreciation is embedded within a wider context of cultural and intellectual connections: the key point coming out on this thread is that most (all?) of these should somehow be jettisoned as ‘sentimental’ irrelevancies – I don’t necessarily agree with that. I’m struggling towards positing the notion that there also is a powerfully efficient and context-personalized strange form of understanding that music, like other artforms, can bring about in its listeners – a soundtrack not just for one’s lifestyle, or even one's life, but for a way of perceiving the world.
So the ‘reasons’ might be in that area.
(And I think we are allowed to imply ‘might be’s round here, and to ask for other input – it’s a discussion forum, not a debating society.)

Regarding all this ‘what about their livelihoods’ stuff: I really don't 'care for' the financial welfare of any band, or their family members, or their kids school fees etc. – that is, quite literally, their business. My end of the deal is to care about the music they make and sell, the musical/cultural intentions and ideas it is encapsulating, how well/badly it does that, and the functions/meanings it has for me as a punter buying it. These seem relevant to a discussion about the use of music in adverts.


Ray M (rdmanston), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Ppl - I just spent ages typing all that out only to discover your other responses had posted in the interim - I've just skimmed them now before posting mine anyway 'cos I need to leave work NOW - but I promise I will read/digest/respond later!
(Tom did you see how I sneakily resurrected this thread by getting you to link to it haha)

Ray M (rdmanston), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I like buying albums. I like thinking about buying albums. Nothing ritual about it: it's great. The only contradictions in commerce is your desire to avoid it and your need to eat every once in a while.

I'm sure that setting music to a commercial after you write it doesn't confuse the artist about what the song is about: so it shouldn't confuse your abliminal either. Would an artist be changing the meaning of an album if he played it a pool-party? Would that change the music? Not for me.

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark raised an interesting point about why it is that we always see the power imbalance as favoring the ad. For instance, no one thinks: "Wow, that ad was totally subverted by the inclusion of that song!" Instead, it's always: "Gee, that song was totally debased by being in that ad!" This suggests that we see the effect of the ad as dominating the effect of the song. This sheds an interesting light on the argument. On an even playing field, you'd think that the song would come out on top a fair amount of the time. But unfortunately, the deck is usually stacked in the ad's favor for a number of reasons: (1) the song is heavily edited in order to fit into a 30 second time slot, (2) it's understood that it was the ad-maker who decided to use the song and not the artist who decided to use the ad so agency resides with the ad-maker, (3) the context of where the ad is seen - during a TV commercial break - in which we are conditioned to view everything as an advertisement for something.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Too many big words in that response for me, Ray. I am serious.

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

all those things are probably true during the ad-break, o-nate, but they vanish when the ad-break ends: in ten years time, the ad will not even be a memory and nick drake will be his [insert adj of choice here] old self again... we don't remember many ads and the ones we do remember are "good" ones (tho not necessarily effective as ads)

ads can be subverted by songs, i think: and sometimes i think ads can rescue songs, by helping you hear them "clean" (the context they're in the ad - will wash away, but momentarily the long-ago social whatever you've let stick to them, like trying to fit in with the wrong crowd at college, i dunno, has its power broken)

haha there shd be a schmaltzy TV show called "Our Ad" in which couples reminisnce abt how they always replay the Stella Artois ad on video when it's their anniversary

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll admit I haven't read all the way through this, so forgive me if I rehash some stuff.

I think the D Boon/ Low cases are instructive, toward the point that the setup of recording contracts makes it nigh impossible for some artists to profit, much less prosper, from their music. Commercial $$ can make a huge difference.

The trade-off is obvious, because having your song turned into a jingle naturally cheapens it for many listeners. (Even for those who hear it in the commercial for the first time... I know folks who knew of the Shins but never heard them before, for whom "New Slang" will forever be "that McDonald's song.")

But if I had a child (or a habit) to feed, I know I'd take the money in a second.

And another point to consider in along the lines of "the commercial will be made anyway" -- even if they don't license your song, they can create a studio approximation that cops its vibe and clearly references it for those in the know. I'm thinking of an older Target ad that had a rip of the groove from Sebadoh's "Flame" and a Haggar slacks ad that ripped the love vibe from Soul Coughing's "Soft Serve." If either band turned down an offer to license the song first (and I have no knowledge whether this happened), they kind of got the short end of the stick.

Also, there are some delicious context-fucks (subversion by song, as mark s put it) that come out of this. Kind of like the old Onion article along the lines of "Bank Uses Song About Heroin to Advertise Low Interest Rates." (Sorry, can't find the link.)

For instance, there were KMart ads featuring kids running around having fun, families hugging, etc., to the unmistakable strains of the instrumental parts from Nico's version of "These Days." It also seemed kind of appropriate though, coming right after the company's bankruptcy.

wl, Wednesday, 11 September 2002 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't agree with Tom that a song is always-already a commodity. I don't buy much music, so many many songs I associate with certain rooms, people, times of day, without having bought it myself nor knowing if it were even bought in the first place at all. As I've said I believe that it's - with very few exceptions - repetition that drives these nuances of memory and association. Advertisers simply have the resources necessary to effect this repetition. If someone feels like balancing the scales go get the song somehow and play it a lot in a situation you like. But the chances are the scales don't really need to be balanced anyway - your ideological allegiance to the non-ad versh does a lot of work here - or you don't actually care that much, you just like sniping and grumping about the telly like an old man.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I got a good laugh out of Aphex Twin being used in that anti-drug advert.

At least to me, there is a whole lot of things that bug me more than a musician hocking a song for an advert, not that the practice isn't completely cheezebot at times.

earlnash, Wednesday, 11 September 2002 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

If the song means something to you -- ALL THE BETTER that it get ripped from your personal context back into the world of social mutilation. Not for the sake of the song, or your appreciation of the song even, but for you. If it doesn't go back into a social interface, but remains bound to an association, then you've lost any gain from the song which isn't in your static relationship but in its ability to aid your dynamic relationship to society.

Er... I think?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

"and don't forget, your relationship to society will be MORE DYNAMIC when you're wearing ADIDAS SHOES!!"

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Buying ADIDAS to hold them up at a ClassiXoR Run DMC concert seems a worthwhile investment.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Did they claim the shoes, did the shoes claim them, and was it the power of their music which overpowered ADIDAS or the powwer of the social phenom they represented?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

but how wd you feel if "i love my adidas" was appropriated for a NIKE ADVERT?

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

No worse than when it was already appropriated for an adidas advert.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

exactly!! um i forgot my point

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry - missed my cue. as always it irks me that the "they won't make any money otherwise" argument is taken as a given and dropped without further exploration.

I think the D Boon/ Low cases are instructive, toward the point that the setup of recording contracts makes it nigh impossible for some artists to profit, much less prosper, from their music.

i hate to bring "indie" into this but someone has to. Low's relatively meager earnings have more to do with the fact that they release records on an independent label than with the setup of their contract - i think kranky's royalty rates are normal by indie standards.

what makes this subject so touchy for a lot of people (myself included) is that when a Fall song appears in an ad accompanied by the obligatory "TWMAMO" arg it means that something many of us really truly want to believe in ISN'T WORKING - that all efforts to establish a viable parallel as-lizard-free-as-possible commercial universe are futile and/or hopelessly misguided. very very simply stated = "if the Fall can't make it none of us can". this tends to get lost in the usual simplistic/elitist/kneejerk hysteria but there are a few of us poor decrepit souls trying to understand and articulate a very specific frustration/disappointment that has nothing to do with crying "sellout" or lamenting the theft of a misty nicey-nice memory by ford motors.

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

i hate to bring "indie" into this but someone has to. Low's relatively meager earnings have more to do with the fact that they release records on an independent label than with the setup of their contract - i think kranky's royalty rates are normal by indie standards.

If such an offer was proffered to the badn, do you really think a major contract -- with its incrementally higher royalty rate but monumentally higher recoupables -- would earn them more money? You can tell from the phrasing of the question that I don't think so.

The only niche-oriented (I love Low, but they definitely fulfill/occupy a niche) "indie" band I can think of who made some decent hay out the major label fandango was probably Royal Trux. They ripped Virgin Rec's off wholesale (and created one of the worst album covers ever int the preocess) as far as I've heard.

Not that indie is panacea, duh, look at many folks' gripes with SST, amongst others.

But anyhow, you gotta feed the baby.

wl, Wednesday, 11 September 2002 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Ad agencies use songs you know because they want you to perk up and pay attention. Jingles do this too but the advertiser has to spend $ and time repeating the jingle before you know it, and associate it with the brand. The thinking goes that well, you already know this song so you're already perking up and paying attention. I think the strategy is tactically midguided though because my associations and thoughts when I hear a song that I know generally tend to drown out any info contained in the ad. It's a short-cut to the brain, but they wind up going the long way round.

I think I've pinpointed my hostility to the phenomenon - when I go see a movie and some great song is just slapped over a montage or something I have the EXACT SAME annoyance as the advert examples above. It seems cheap to use someone's finished piece of music as a support prop for imagery - in the heirarchy of the senses as we've set them up in cinema, theater, and television, audio sets the table and the image eats. And it runs into the same problem - if I go see a play and during the scene change they play "my heart belongs to Daddy" I'm yanked out of whatever fiction they're setting up and thinking about Amanda Margulies dancing around her apartment in a wig.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

when I go see a movie and some great song is just slapped over a montage or something I have the EXACT SAME annoyance as the advert examples above. It seems cheap to use someone's finished piece of music as a support prop for imagery

I was gonna say that sometimes songs licensed to TV and movies bother me as much as/more than when used in advertising. You have pinpointed part of the reason.

wl, Wednesday, 11 September 2002 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

which is fine of course - I'm in favor of the art of the wyank, but this seems like the only place it ever happens and a bit avant-garde for something like "Behind Enemy Lines" </grump>

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Michel Chion to thread!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

wl - i skipped a few steps there in a hurry to get to the point but i didn't mean to imply that a band like Low would be better off on a major - rather that the particulars of their contract were less significant than the fact of their being a "niche" band by design.

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Wednesday, 11 September 2002 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

(and by "some of us" i meant "okay just me")

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Thursday, 12 September 2002 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Señor Jones- Sorry I didn't get that from your previous post. Looks like we agree, more or less.

wl, Thursday, 12 September 2002 03:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I nearly booted my telly when I heard Royksopp's "Eple" on a Lynx deodorant ad. Fuck it annoys me - I know it shouldn't but *leave our stuff alone*! Please...

Charlie (Charlie), Thursday, 12 September 2002 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)

music videos to thread!

Ess Kay (esskay), Thursday, 12 September 2002 03:59 (twenty-two years ago)

with videos the image is totally ruled by the music so - fine with me, c'mon in videos, pull up a cushion AWWW

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 12 September 2002 06:14 (twenty-two years ago)

"...it means that something many of us really truly want to believe in ISN'T WORKING - that all efforts to establish a viable parallel as-lizard-free-as-possible commercial universe are futile and/or hopelessly misguided."

Well, maybe they are. In the end, I'm anti-utopian; the baby trumps the dream. We all live in the world, and in the market, it's all one. I really don't want to sound like a prick, but what kind of "alternative commerical universe" consists only of pop music? How about some lizard-free gas stations, to start with?

I brought up the Low situation to argue against the "sellout" cry, which I suppose hadn't actually been made. But in a larger sense, I don't think these things belong to us as fans, and it's these moral qualms about what a song should be used for that seem proprietary to my ears. That, and I think that falling in love with/to a song and hearing it used to pump an SUV are part of the same story, the glittery sweating ugly human comedy [/cliche]. As much as I admire the stubborn refusal that is at the heart of the utopian dream, and wish that it was right or even possible, I think it's a retreat.

Really, who got the shit end of the deal? Low made exactly what they wanted to make, that their audience wanted, the Gap paid them, and got what? To sell some pants? (weren't their sales in the fucking toilet at the time, btw?) How utopian is that?

g.cannon (gcannon), Thursday, 12 September 2002 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

(jesus I sound like a DNC new labourite third wayer, don't I. Gah.)

g.cannon (gcannon), Thursday, 12 September 2002 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

EXAMPLE THAT JUSTIFIES ALL POPSONGS USED IN ALL ADVERTS, EVER: Andy Bell was so dismayed by the flack he got from allowing The Sun to use one of Hurricane £1's songs, he broke up the band!!! Huzzah for Mr Murdoch!!!

(I think if I worked in advertising [and going by Creative Review, the label of choice is Warp] I wouldn't use music I liked in ads, because, well, I *would* feel a bit precious about sullying songs I loved (films, though, would be a different matter). I think I would follow the Scooter principle of using fucked up versions of terrible songs.)

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 12 September 2002 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

music videos to thread!

Anyone else remember when music videos were considered to be bad and horrible and a creation of the 12 foot lizards and all of that because they supposedly kept you from creating your own image of the song? My reaction always was, "I don't get images from the song anyways, so why not have ones that the artist creates?"

Oh, and about the x-ray machines in shoe stores: There was a Colorado store that used one of those things well into the Eighties. The machine was old (Forties vintage, IIRC), broken down, unshielded, and spewing ungodly amounts of radiation into the air. I wonder just how many employees died of cancer because of that thing.

Christine "Green Leafy Dragon" Indigo (cindigo), Thursday, 12 September 2002 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

in the 1890s there was a fashion for symphony orchestras to play behind a giant screen so that the audience could dream up their own images, instead having to gaze at the hideous brass section etc etc

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 12 September 2002 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha, this reminds me of an exchange on a Pitchfork thread between Tom and, er, someone else (sorry can't the locate thread)- paraphrasing something like:,

SE: 'But FischerSpooner are about so much more than just music, you really have to SEE them and their show to get the full effect.'
Tom: 'So why have they released an audio CD instead of a Video/DVD?'
SE: 'Because imagined pictures can be so much better than ones you're given!'

Me: Errrr....

Ray M (rdmanston), Thursday, 12 September 2002 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

(reminds me of) != (is similar to) btw

Ray M (rdmanston), Thursday, 12 September 2002 14:39 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone gaze upon my hideous brass section

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 12 September 2002 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I really don't want to sound like a prick, but what kind of "alternative commerical universe" consists only of pop music? How about some lizard-free gas stations, to start with?

well yes but we're talking about musicians and their actual sphere of control not imaginary CEOs. and I don't consider my admittedly quaint and problematic idealism in these matters utopian.

as for the notion of "retreat" (in the sense i think you mean), this begins way before the hypothetical ad-refusal - the moment a group or individual decides to identify as Indie in the first place. since that initial decision is more often than not at least partly ethical, many subsequent commercial decisions also become minor crises tackled in terms of degrees of compromise. but to see a refusal as a "retreat" at this point is a fabricated dilemma - it ignores the fact that the group in question is already engaged in an art/commerce equation at least as complex and sophisticated as the "mainstream" one if not more so. the baby only complicates the dream - if it trumped it, a band like Low would simply cease to exist.

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Thursday, 12 September 2002 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.venustechstudios.com/images/burp.gif

Lek Dukagjin, Thursday, 12 September 2002 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I should have been a little more clear (work!), and I think we're pretty much in agreement.

By "dream" I meant our dream of a band's anti-lizard virtue. When you say that "the group in question is already engaged in an art/commerce equation at least as complex and sophisticated as the "mainstream" one if not more so" you're absolutely right. Their baby trumps our dream.

And by "retreat" I meant a mental retreat of a fan holding up some kind of ideological scorecard (which you of course aren't doing) rather than trying to understand those decisions that put the song in the ad. I really didn't mean an artist's "retreat" from the golden teat or market inevitability or some such thing.

But, you're talking about a more generalized disgust, ie song-in-ad = signal that everything has gone wrong; not disapproval of a particular artist's decisions. And to that feeling, I don't have an answer. I guess I've never really believed in the possibility of another parallel world, myself.

g.cannon (gcannon), Thursday, 12 September 2002 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

wtf?

g.cannon (gcannon), Thursday, 12 September 2002 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry g.cannon - you're right - i misread that whole post. i'm not being very clear either. i'm going to back out of here very slowly now before Lek's drawing pounces into my cobwebbed attic of a mind and overturns all my ideological knick-knacks

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Thursday, 12 September 2002 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Tom I had a real doubletake at your post before I saw what you were getting at re ND & Volvo - it felt like looking at one of those Necker Cube illusions where the frontface/backface flips around.
But doesn't it go this way:
ILx Majority Opinion = If you really like song then ad doesn't matter
tigerskank = I will kill ad sound so I don't have to get ND spoiled
Me = ts that means ILx maj think you don't really like ND

Yr stuff about obsessiveness/other ppl is a VERY BIG THING - I'm almost scared to answer in case I get torn apart by the rest of you!

I don't understand this 'baby trumping dream' stuff above, but surely you don't have to believe that a 'lizard-free parallel world' actually exists in order to find music that implies or represents the imagined existence of one, or that implies non-lizard areas of life in this one? (What I meant by 'non-widgety' above) These are important imaginings. Artefacts can be an awkwardly commercial manifestation of art/idea - but to say that the art/idea is therefore always and inevitably reduced or compromised by that seems needlessly economics-obsessed and faux-logic cynical.

And could ppl aaarrghghg PLEASE try to get past only using Nice Memory Syndrome as way of interpreting the complaint - it's part of it but not all of it.
Unfortunately I'm stuck in that fog of whether the other stuff I'm struggling to clarify is really subtle and difficult, or whether it's just too incoherent to exist atall :( - NEED MORE INPUT!

There are some other ILx regulars/Big Guns who I wish would contribute their take on this stuff: the pinefox, Ned & Tim Finney especially.

Ray M (rdmanston), Friday, 13 September 2002 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

'baby trumping dream'

Could any North-England ILx'ers please resist from using this unfortunate turn of phrase as a setup line.
Thankyou.

Ray M (rdmanston), Friday, 13 September 2002 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

you don't have to believe that a 'lizard-free parallel world' actually exists in order to find music that implies or represents the imagined existence of one, or that implies non-lizard areas of life in this one? (What I meant by 'non-widgety' above) These are important imaginings. Artefacts can be an awkwardly commercial manifestation of art/idea - but to say that the art/idea is therefore always and inevitably reduced or compromised by that seems needlessly economics-obsessed and faux-logic cynical.

Somewhere along the line we've forgotten that the point of 12-ft lizards is that they REALLY DON'T EXIST. And REALLY DON'T RUN THE WORLD.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 13 September 2002 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Ray M - don't mind my "baby trumps the dream" digression. if it's hard to follow it's because i misunderstood what g.cannon meant by it in the first place.

these "music in ads" threads can get very exhausting for the Anti camp - one always seems to wind up defending an ideology far more rigid or sentimentalist than one's own, or trying to distinguish one's position from that of the strawman "sellout!"-yellers who are NEVER actually present. i've been persuaded enough by past threads to admit that there IS something very reactionary in my own feelings on the subject, something which doesn't hold up under scrutiny. so on this one i've tried to restrict my arguments to what frustrates me from a struggling artist POV - namely the assumption that licensing music to an ad firm or film or whatever is practically inevitable for "minor talents" trying to make ends meet and that that in itself merits no further discussion. maybe it doesn't - this is all stuff i'm still trying to work out and this probably isn't the best place for it. anyway any mention i've made of compromise is made in this sense - not on the part of the artifact but of its creator(s) - apologies for any confusion there.

Sterling - the lizard bit was me too. "The Man" would have worked just as well. it was a shot at lucid naive which i guess failed.

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Friday, 13 September 2002 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I think focussing on the creators is more sensible. For my part I can imagine being disappointed in an ad maker's choice of music - if a product I like used music I didn't I would probably feel like questioning my association with it. I can imagine in fairly extreme circumstances being disappointed if an artist endorsed (via selling a song) something I didn't like - fairly extreme meaning if they endorsed e.g.the Tory Party, not a car. But I can't imagine being disappointed in a piece of music.

Tom (Groke), Friday, 13 September 2002 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i hate everyone creative already so that's not a problem

mark s (mark s), Friday, 13 September 2002 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

get back under yr shawlie old timer

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Friday, 13 September 2002 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha I think I am v.nearly the same age as mark s, Mr.J - I actually feel older though 'cos tons more of my brain-matter seems to have died (and where the hell do those neurons actually GO anyway I don't like the idea of old dead matter clogging up my head....obviously old dead notions and ideas and tastes are fine though haha)
I need to search out these 'previous threads' of which you speak - I only know of one other (Clash/Jaguar), which turned into a massive 3-way (Political Idealism vs Action)-fest between Informed Historians which then scared me away. Your comments on the 'but I'm not supporting THAT' experiences are a relief.

Sterling I thought 'Lizards' = 'Those Capitalist Bastards' generally, a lack of ILx history on my part.

Tom, yr examples are good and useful, but its.....it's not 'disappointment' with anybody involved in the process as such......it's.......it's......something else.....*sinks to knees and puts head in hands*

I maybe have to let this thread sink into obscurity until I can articulate better what the fuck it is I'm trying to say. A few years might do it. (Further neuronal ear-dribble notwithstanding).

Ray M (rdmanston), Friday, 13 September 2002 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree, Tom: after that flipping car commercial, I will never do the Dew again. But I think it is time we all tried to help Ray, we could be constructive therefore.

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Friday, 13 September 2002 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's turn this on its head:

I like hearing songs in advertising. I'm bemused at the attempt of advertisers to link their product with whatever sound-world is implied by "Lust for Life" or "What Do I Get" or "Little Drummer Boy." I like hearing songs get ruined. I like having to constatly rethink my recieved notions of art, capital, and rock music, every time it happens. I like the idea of artists getting scads of money for work they might've done years ago, good for them. I like imagining a world where the Fall is the score to every ad. I like the fact that potential Jaguar owners might be Clash fans (joke's on them both).

(I don't know how many of these I really believe, btw, but I'll go with them for now.)

g.cannon (gcannon), Friday, 13 September 2002 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

you know that car ad (can't remember which one) that had "Get up get up put the party in motion / blah blah blah let's start the commotion" "fire it up baby" etc? they've done several more with different songs - and the models inhabiting the cars know all the words to every song! and they're always driving through the same tunnel, with the same clothes, always heading to the same party, their car never depreciating in value or looks.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 13 September 2002 17:34 (twenty-two years ago)

the body in motion commercial was the best commercial ever, bar none. I wish I had thought to mention it.

Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Friday, 13 September 2002 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

haha Ray M the secret to my shawlie jab is that i'm really older than you and mark s COMBINED! AND MULTIPLIED x 7!!! (and like Tracer's car i nevah depreciate in looks or value)

it just occurred to me that a better example of the situation reversed than songs subverting ads (by accident) might be songs appropriating brands on purpose like V Taylor's Brand New Cadillac or better yet Snoop endorsing Tanqueray etc (gangstas perhaps not being the demographic they'd like to be affiliated with thogh i'm just guessing)

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Saturday, 14 September 2002 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

it just occurred to me that a better example of the situation reversed than songs subverting ads (by accident) might be songs appropriating brands on purpose like V Taylor's Brand New Cadillac or better yet Snoop endorsing Tanqueray etc (gangstas perhaps not being the demographic they'd like to be affiliated with thogh i'm just guessing)

Pass the Courvoisier!

Daniel_Rf, Saturday, 14 September 2002 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

three months pass...
Just came across this letter written by Tom Waits in response to the Densmore Nation article. I won't copy the whole thing here, but you'll get the idea from this excerpt:

"Artists who take money for ads poison and pervert their songs. It reduces them to the level of a jingle, a word that describes the sound of change in your pocket, which is what your songs become. Remember, when you sell your songs for commercials, you are selling your audience as well."

o. nate (onate), Monday, 13 January 2003 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

two months pass...
pete shelley in an s.u.v.


it's hard to even picture him behind the wheel
of some rugged sport utility vehi-kill

even sittin on a phonebook wearin platform shoes
it just clashes with his eyeliner and all that rouge

pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
what do you get for your rock 'n roll dreams
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
s-e-l-l-o-u-t

i hate to beat up on such a petite rock star
i mean so what if he sold out to some foriegn car
he's just a homo sapien like me & you
maybe it was the only way to get his due

pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
have you seen this travesty?
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
s-e-l-l-o-u-t

i hate to begrudge or judge you
but who nudged you into signing away your legacy
do i have to spell out sell out
as i shell out money i dont even have on me
for some brand new s.u.v.
and some used buzzcocks cd..........

ever fallen off the sofa like a lost remote
when whats comin cross the cable hits a sour note?
well thats kinda how it happened with my tv set
im there flickin through the channels and what do i get?

pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
gunnin down the road runnin over me
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
s-e-l-l-o-u-t
s-e-l-l-o-u-t
s-e-l-l-o-u-8-1-2

© 2002 tommy amoeba All Rights Reserved

Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

© 2002 tommy amoeba All Rights Reserved

haha

Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)


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