Best British (non-electronic) Rhythm Sections since the '60s

Simon Reynolds writes that while British bands in the 1960s usually had strong rhythm sections because they came up playing dance music in clubs, these skills declined in later generations. Do you agree? Who would you name as the best British rhythm sections in recent decades?

Reynolds does praise these guys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6QnK0yql8s&feature=related

hard to square the madchester thing with a decline in attention to beats

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-NlYftA7-M

beats + grooves, i mean

maybe it was the last gasp though, i dunno. subsequently, most of the heavy lifting seems to have shifted to the machinery.

Said it before, but Haskins and David J make Bauhaus for me. Aswad and Steel Pulse et al obviously belong here but maybe Simey forgot they were British. Jah Wobble and various drummers probly fit too. Gang of Four I suppose but yaaaawn. Fleetwood and McVie ffs. Loads of Britishes Metal dudes or guys who did a lot of work in the States eg Aynsley Dunbar.

Rourke and Joyce def. up there too.

Jah Wobble and various drummers

x1000

wimbish & leblanc are americans, of course, but did a lot of their best work in the UK

Charles Hayward & Gareth Williams, when they chose to be

Pete & Bruce Thomas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXBGfkk11pY

David Steele & Everett Morton

Word.

Honourable mention for Lee Harris and Paul Webb of Talk Talk too, I'd say (plus Danny Thompson on occasions).

Danny Thompson bit of an old geezer tho? Just a bit.

Should have made it clear, I'm thinking specifically of his double bass work for Talk Talk, and within that very much his glorious work on "Happiness is Easy".

i guess most of you will be all 'lol Roni Size' but the live bassist & drummer in Reprazent were amazing together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XtHQwNbeJI

Pete & Bruce Thomas

― total ass retain (MaresNest), Wednesday, June 8, 2011 5:28 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Pretty sure Bruce Thomas learned how to play in the 60s, so I don't think he counts

same can be said for a lot of the '70s groups mentioned itt, seems like a pointless disqualification

We've got this far and no one's mentioned Frantz & Weymouth (Talking Heads/Tom Tom Club)? So many great rhythm sections in the post-punk era. After that, it gets a little difficult since electronic production started taking over slowly but surely. I remember as a sprog in the mid-90s asking my guitar teacher what the bass guitar was actually for, which is testament to how rudimentary it had become by then.

"Simon Reynolds writes that while British bands in the 1960s usually had strong rhythm sections because they came up playing dance music in clubs, these skills declined in later generations"

... kind of the point of the thread really? Point is guys like Yes, or whoever, and probably Bruce Thomas, learned their stuff by playing "In the Midnight Hour" or "Heatwave" or whatever, in clubs in the 60s

xp Frantz and Weymouth may be white and posh, but they're not from these isles :p

lol bagpipes (and I know that Reynolds really hated Big Country), but Tony Butler and Mark Brzezicki were both pretty incredible imo

Liked the original Scritti bass player, drummer not so good

Comsat Angels! Their drummer was outstanding!

Gotobed & Lewis

Absolutely, keeping it simple.

Amazingly well-drilled as well though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6eAOmz-Aag

^ talking of drilled

New Order/ Joy Division v boring, I know, but the Hook/ Morris rhythm section was pretty great. Wasn't the Roni Size bassist Adrian Utley from Portishead?

Can't believe I'm first to mention Peter Hook & Stephen Morris.

xp damn you

lol

xxxposts - forgot it said British, sorry

Derek Forbes & Brian McGee of Simple Minds
Barry Adamson & John Doyle of Magazine

Youth Martin / Paul Ferguson (Killing Joke)

Paul Ryder and Gary Whelan from the Happy Mondays.

^^ especially Squirrel & G-man, the basslines on that record were outstanding

Steve Jansen & Mick Karn

have never been a big XTC fan but i give their rhythm section respect

whatshisname and whatshisname from Long Fin Killie

(bassist Colin Grieg and drummer David Turner; replacement drummer Kenny McEwan)

I was trying to think of sections from post rock-ish bands. Best I came up with were Stereolab and Broadcast (the latter when they played as a full band).

Pram

whoever the hell these guys were:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcblH3i4ggI

these guys started an entire genre pretty much based on their rhythm section:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7MJq3XqTWc

plus, Crass. Crass are top ten for me as far as drums+bass go.

plus, naplam death. the early years.

napalm

xp lol

Napalm Death guys are great too.

plus, pretty much every oi! band i love.

have never been a big XTC fan but i give their rhythm section respect

Moulding was a bass god, listen to "Mayor of Simpleton" and be amazed. Their original drummer was good but they never had the same kick after he left.

Call me crazy but I think the Police had one of the best? Sting handled the bass pretty well and Copeland is one of the GOAT drummers in a pop band. Listen to stuff like "Bring on the Night" for proof.

Kev and Rob from Stump
Tommy and Wolfie of The Stupids
Steve Garvey and John Maher of the Buzzcocks
William Potter and Steve Goodwin of Cud

Cud had the funkiest rhythm sections of all the Madchester-era bands.

I agree with the premise of this thread though whether it's for the reason that SR puts forward I can't say. I do recall as a frequent gig-goer in Scotland in the 80s that most of the UK bands were not great musicians but there was a turning point following a few high profile visits from Sonic Youth, Pussy Galore, Camper Van Beethoven and others. This would have been around 1988. I know Stephen Pastel has talked about this. It seemed like all the Glasgow music community were at those gigs and the musicianship turned around a lot after that. Not to mention that things loosened up a lot in general.

And I should mention that a lot of that change came in the form of better drumming and bass playing, which is the bedrock of rock music. Seems like in the early 80s guitar bands were experimenting with different rhythm ideas or conceptualizing around more idiocyncratic musical formats and forgot about rocking out.

punk rock destroyed the world. but what are you gonna do? someone had to do it.

in the 70's a band would get the chance to maybe put out one album in their career and the four members of that band would have, like, 50 years of combined music experience in 50 different bands. and now there is vampire weekend. shit happens.

Call me crazy but I think the Police had one of the best? Sting handled the bass pretty well and Copeland is one of the GOAT drummers in a pop band. Listen to stuff like "Bring on the Night" for proof.

― frogbs, Wednesday, June 8, 2011 11:30 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark

i thought about bringing up the Police but then Copeland's not British

Didn't Sting always have a problem with Copeland's drumming. Like he couldn't keep good time or kept speeding up?

i think they had a lot of arguments about tempos/arrangements but not because anyone wasn't a good musician or couldn't keep time

i mean that's an eternal "bassist tells the drummer to slow the fuck down" argument but that band in particular always gave each other a lot of shit

stewart copeland ruined curved air. okay, maybe he didn't, but i love curved air and the copeland era is kinda bad. but then again maybe its like andy sommers and the animals. last legs kinda thing.

My Bloody Valentine. Alright they were Oirish but London based.

The Stranglers, The Auteurs, Subway Sect, Swell Maps, The Raincoats, Clinic, Young Marble Giants ... you could carry this on into the hundreds and still only scratch the surface. Nonsense Simmo.

Colm from MBV is absolutely amazingly talented though a lot of their most popular stuff doesn't necessary showcase that. But this has been debated on ILM before and he takes some stick for his machinegun drum rolls. Each to his own I guess. I idolise the guy.

oh yeah, I forgot Copeland was American

I think in general Sting thought that Copeland played a bit too fast, there's a great part of his documentary where he's going nuts to start a song (think it was "Next to You"?) and Sting gives him this awesome death glare.

Moulding was a bass god, listen to "Mayor of Simpleton" and be amazed. Their original drummer was good but they never had the same kick after he left.

Andy Partridge claims to have written (and played, I think) that and many other bass lines that folks praise Moulding for. I don't know if that's true or if it's Partridge's usual bullshit.

Terry Chambers was great, and the only drummer after him who really made them swing was Prairie Prince.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bc-ZC1EF18

Field Music have really tight bass and drums

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K06H-Zfwq0w&feature=related

xxp I have no idea if that's true, but whoever played it, it's incredible

XP - Curious to know where Parridge might have made those kinda claims, I've never read anything like that before.

Oh fuckit, *Partridge*

this thread turned into "list every band you like no matter how terrible their rhythm section was" so slowly i hardly noticed

Yeah XTC/Dukes of Stratosphere, Spacemen 3, various Fall lineups, JAMC, Teenage Fanclub, Shriekback, Magazine, Gorky's Zygotic Mynci, The Monochrome Set and Shack. The list goes on and is laden with people who can play fucking great music that isn't some sympton of generational decline because they wouldn't cut it with a Northern Soul audience or they haven't cut their teeth hacking out crap R+B covers in Batley's Frontiers.

I know SR isn't asking for this. But what does he want, a load of Paul Weller cunts?

Tony Butler and Mark Brzezicki.

I do recall as a frequent gig-goer in Scotland in the 80s that most of the UK bands were not great musicians but there was a turning point following a few high profile visits from Sonic Youth, Pussy Galore, Camper Van Beethoven and others. This would have been around 1988.

I think the turning point was Dinosaur Jr's gig, can't remember even where it was but it certainly blew a few minds in the indie mafia, one minute Norman Blake was in the Boy Hairdressers next he's all long hair + guitar solos. I think it was the realization (relief?) that you didn't have to sound like the Pastels + that you could have Marshall stacks + guitar solos + instrumental chops. Seemed like these American bands grew up listening to Grand Funk Railroad, Foghat, Cactus whatever instead of Jonathan Richman or the Velvet Underground, who'd've thought it?!?!?!

20 or so members of the Fall

o_O at JAMC mention, sorry.

Surprised I'm the first to mention Greenwood/Selway. I don't know about the best but I do rather enjoy Graeme Murray's drumming on Youthmovies' Good Nature. Hammond's parts are often straightforward and don't always stand out but they connect well with Murray's and work well in the context imo.

Crass and Bauhaus were good calls.

Actually, I may not have given Hammond enough credit there...

I didn't know Tony Levin is American!

this thread turned into "list every band you like no matter how terrible their rhythm section was" so slowly i hardly noticed

Such as?

i love the Auteurs and i like the JAMC when they're not boring but Best Rhythm Sections? Jaysus

if it ain't swinging somehow it's a shit rhythm section imo

Are you saying wee Bobbie is not as good a drummer as John Bonham?

he's not as good a drummer as John Redwood tbh

leader of popular beat combo John Redwood & the Vulcans

if it ain't swinging somehow it's a shit rhythm section imo

Really? I think there are some really good rhythm sections that don't swing, e.g. Lee/Peart or Selway/Greenwood. Anderson/King of the Bad Plus are a good example even in jazz!

^ Lewis/Gotobed

i dunno i'd argue Lee & Peart swing also the Bad Plus guys. anything Rock and Roll or Jazz derived has some relationship with swing I think. Don't rate Selway & Greenwood that high in their pre-electronic work but

love Wire but great rhythm section? i don't get that much. the guitars do a lot of the heavy lifting early on and then later on they're kinda swingier anyway

Hook/Morris too. Probably most good postpunk groups actually.
2xpost

Hm, maybe you're defining "swing" differently than I am, NV...

(Also, am I actually giving Selway credit for some programmed things ... ? e.g. "Myxamatosis" is live, right? Saw them on that tour and even some of the electronic stuff was arranged for live performance iirc.)

love Wire but great rhythm section?

I think they're perfect. Well drilled as NickB said upthread. Also awesome live.

i think swing is something to do with propelling the band forward and the opposite of that, i.e. being a lousy rhythm section, is that feeling of hopelessly hanging on underneath the singer/guitarist cos just traditionally you're expected to be there? also swinging has to have some rhythmic sensibility beyond 4 to the floor even if you're playing in a really tightly wound style

Karn and Jansen were incredible possibly my fave rhythm section ever...if they would of been American they would of gone on to play with all the big jazzers...

Like, I get that a swung beat is a totally flexible concept and isn't strictly a quarter-note-triplet + eighth-note-triplet shuffle or anything. (Some ILM discussion here: Swing beat ). I'm still not sure it applies to "Red Barchetta" though... By any definition, it still refers to some pattern where a beat is divided into unequal subdivisions as opposed to the straight eighths you'd find in the examples I gave, yeah?

xposts OK

J. Bradford Robinson in Grove Music Online might seem to come closer to your definition actually:

A quality attributed to jazz performance. Though basic to the perception and performance of jazz, swing has resisted concise definition or description. Most attempts at such refer to it as primarily a rhythmic phenomenon, resulting from the conflict between a fixed pulse and the wide variety of accent and rubato that a jazz performer plays against it. However, such a conflict alone does not necessarily produce swing, and a rhythm section may even play a simple fixed pulse with varied amounts or types of swing. Clearly other properties are also involved, of which one is probably the forward propulsion imparted to each note by a jazz player through manipulation of timbre, attack, vibrato, intonation or other means; this combines with the proper rhythmic placement of each note to produce swing in a great variety of ways.

yeah, i know i'm misusing "swing" in a technical sense but i feel like any truly great rhythm section has to be leading the band in some way and with some of the indier ends of the spectrum i just don't get that vibe. it's not even a criticism in particular, i don't say a band has to be rhythm lead, but i sometimes do feel these kinds of threads devolve into some people listing members of bands they like without giving much thought to how those members contribute. or not.

i feel like any truly great rhythm section has to be leading the band in some way

Disagree with this

tbh beyond a couple of Meat is Murder tracks i'm not convinced anybody could countenance Joyce/Rourke as a "Best" rhythm section

Hanley Hanley Burns

Depends on the music being played of course. If it fits then it's good. What was that indie band with the drummer who seemed to think was great 'cos he every drum and wouldn't shut up?

everyone seemed to think was great... not me obviously

well like i said not every band has to have a great rhythm section but don't try and tell me somebody's great just cos they shut up and don't get in the way

They can be!

great is a wobbly word really

True. Underplaying is a tricky too.

yeah, i know i'm misusing "swing" in a technical sense but i feel like any truly great rhythm section has to be leading the band in some way and with some of the indier ends of the spectrum i just don't get that vibe. it's not even a criticism in particular, i don't say a band has to be rhythm lead, but i sometimes do feel these kinds of threads devolve into some people listing members of bands they like without giving much thought to how those members contribute. or not.

Cool, wasn't sure. I think we're on the same page wrt the bigger issue anyway. Agree with you about Joyce/Rourke too, though they're certainly better candidates than the JAMC.

Budgie and Steve Severin!

I can't possibly just stand by and watch bobby gillespie get dissed on an ilm thread.

So I'll just jump in and add that he's a useless twunt who couldn't keep a beat if he padlocked himself to an 808

Pollitt & Budgie morelike

I will admit my contribution to this thread is guilty of listing bands without adding detailed analysis. I am an electrician by trade and dont really care my contribution to this board lacks music journo verbosity. I sound like a twat when I try it and dont have the time to elucidate about things that are beloved to me like that. My passion is equal to the nuttiest of obsessive ultras on here. I would just like to start another sentence with an 'I'. Oh yeah you are probably right about JAMC though.

Napalm Death guys are great too.

What about Carcass? Enjoying the drums on Heartwork today.