T/S: Beyonce's "4" vs. Gaga's "Born This Way"

Gaga better singles, Beyonce better album http://i.imgur.com/zi7hd.gif

b, duh

g is confused on this one, tho she has some home runs

4 on the other hand - there is no lack of clarity there

Seems like G's least confused album yet, but that's coo.

i've listened to 4 five times as much at the very least

to me a lot of the songs on born this way sound like she didn't know exactly why she was recording them, or why she had them produced the way she did

just don't get that clear sense of belief in the material

like i can see the cutting room floor.

on 4 i get a tremendous amount of conviction.

Both albums have their flaws, but only "Hair" bugs me nearly as much as "Best Thing I Never Had," "I Was Here" and most of "Countdown."

Plus, I like dance music.

nothing on beyonce touches "Born This Way," "Judas" or even "We Belong To the Night" or whatever that song is called—but beyonce is way more consistent all the way through http://i.imgur.com/zi7hd.gif

"we belong to the night"?

oh "marry the night" lol - anyway you guys are both crazy, "hair" is the best song on that gaga but "schoolin life" beats anything on either album

I will never like "Hair." It's terrible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUaPYCQV9yE

the much harder poll would be beyonce's 4 vs lloyd's king of hearts

GA GA RA MA MA

Born This Way > 4
4 bonus tracks > Born This Way bonus tracks

still havent cracked the lloyd yet. cant wait http://i.imgur.com/zi7hd.gif

born this way = an artist trying way too hard & doing way too much, misunderstanding why she was good in the first place, and mostly failing in the process
4 = an artist comfortable w/ her life & her art, making the least adventurous yet best album of her career

'born this way' makes me regret being even for one second one of those ppl early in gaga's career that was like "it would be cool if her music was adventurous/weird as she wants her persona to be!"

^ there is some truth in this, but it's not the total creative faceplant you suggest

whoa sarge you think "4" touches "b'day"?

yeah & those are sorta way underlying problems anyway -- her #1 fuck up w/ this album was ditching redone for "frenando garibay" & "dj white shadow"

i like b'day of course but i like 4 better

yeah & those are sorta way underlying problems anyway -- her #1 fuck up w/ this album was ditching redone for "frenando garibay" & "dj white shadow"

― gucci mande (J0rdan S.), Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:32 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

& this is allowing for the fact that garibay did "dance in the dark", one of her best songs ever -- but it's still one of her simplest songs

also i would've liked her to continue working w/ more r&b-leaning producers after she turned out classics w/ darkchild & teddy riley

Hopefully I can say this without veering into Geir-like territory, but as much as I do like 4, it devolves into slow, syrupy r&b too often whereas Born This Way maintains a hard and persistent 4/4 stomp the whole way through and I'm always going to like that more. Conceptually and lyrically, 4 may actually be superior. Musically, Born This Way pushes all my buttons.

the r&b thing is taste bias on my part tho, i understand that's not where her appeal lies to most ppl in this country, let alone the whole world

also i'm being a bit fatalistic cuz i had huge expectations for 'born this way' coming on the heels of 'the fame monster' which is kind of a masterpiece imo -- for beyonce, following the shit club sandwich that was sasha fierce discs 1 & 2 + "girls run the world", i had super low expectations, so that plays into it too

^ this is where i'm at, except that i don't know what "concceptually and lyrically, 4 may actually be superior" is supposed to mean. i just know that born this way effectively pushes certain buttons.

xpost

see that constant 4/4 stomp throughout the whole album is something i kinda can't stand -- it's why i pass by dance clubs that cater to ppl my age & go "who the fuck could be in there for more than 15 minutes?"

it's like being beat over the head with a textbook

i don't know what "concceptually and lyrically, 4 may actually be superior" is supposed to mean

It means large swaths of Born This Way are conceptually and lyrically horrible, and 4 may be better in that regard (dunno...I haven't listened to it enough yet to figure that out).

lotta people i tried the gaga album out on objected to to constant stomp and maximal sharp/loud production. certainly makes it an album only suited to certain moments, but i'm okay w that. haven't spent anywhere near as much time w 4, though, so i may come around.

i'm on board w gaga conceptually & lyrically, though the title track and judas still annoy me on that level.

"judas" is the best joint on there along w/ the "americano" -> "schisse" stretch

Born This Way maintains a hard and persistent 4/4 stomp the whole way through

This is a fault.

not really

thats why yr the groovemaaan http://i.imgur.com/zi7hd.gif

i would like the album better if it had some groove to it!

"Judas" and "Highway Unicorn" are the only two tracks on the standard version of Born This Way that I routinely skip, but I've gotten to the point of not actively hating them when I hear them.

This is a fault.

Not if you were weaned on Judas Priest and AC/DC.

afaik, i've never heard judas priest

judas priest is an amazing band! you should check them out! http://i.imgur.com/zi7hd.gif

I rarely listen to them these days, but I imprinted on that sound very early. So much so, that things like reggae or dubstep or even r&b with a swing to it are occasionally fun diversions for me now but end up making me anxious if I'm exposed to them for too long.

Weird, I know.

I mean, I don't recoil in horror at those things. Just that my body actively starts craving a BOOM...BOOM...BOOM...BOOM and none of those things ever deliver.

lots of great bands make albums where all the songs sound the same
http://www.amiright.com/album-covers/images/album-The-Ramones-Ramones.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/zi7hd.gif

Dave Cool isn't wrong.

or the beatles, where they all sound english

Ramones: 29:04

Born this Way: 61:12

And to be clear, I like pretty much all of the songs on BTW in isolation! It's just too much of one thing, one thing which I'm not hugely predisposed to, at once.

Monster was the perfect length for a Lady Gaga album imo.

Ramones: 29:04

Born this Way: 61:12

yeah, like the ramones/leave home twofer!

good times...

Monster was the perfect length for a Lady Gaga album imo.

I'm inclined to agree, and actually was going to make a compact version of Born This Way for my iPod, but I could only trim it to 11 tracks in the end (plus I made it 12 by adding "Fashion of His Love").

Good discussion.

Both are consolidation albums: I doubt we'll hear either woman's strengths and weaknesses in such fetching settings. I'm at the point of preferring 4 to B'Day too, but only by a half grade (A- to B+). That BTW takes more risks than 4 isn't a plus, but from an artist whose last albums never convinced me she had the discipline to write anything other than compelling bridges or choruses.

I can't decide because I'm still under 4's spell but haven't played BTW in a month.

voted for gaga. BTW is much closer to my ideal gaga album than 4 is to my ideal beyonce album.

I mean "but from an artist whose last albums never convinced me she had the discipline to write anything other than compelling bridges or choruses that's impressive."

to my ears "Run the World (Girls)" is as pneumatic as "Hair" is to Eric.

some songs work better than others on BTW but nothing sticks out as lousy for me the way "Run The World" and "Party" do

Seems like G's least confused album yet, but that's coo.

― ephendophile (Eric H.), Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:32 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark

fully agree

Thing is, I like both these albums a bunch. So it hurts my heart to see the gays I sorta know and sorta love so deeply unified on behalf of the one (or the 4, rather).

like it's just not as simple as varying sounds and songs automatically inferring confusion and failure; gaga has a v singular theme running through the whole album that's equally as strong as bey's, just obviously not as focused due to its very nature

to me a lot of the songs on born this way sound like she didn't know exactly why she was recording them, or why she had them produced the way she did

i disagree, BTW feels too thought out and conscious of what it wanted to be - even though it's not a total failure in this regard, consequently its best moments are when you can forget about all the extraneous stuff gaga's trying to ladle on to it.

4 actually feels more like a creative milestone in beyoncé's career the more i listen to it - like an album where she's finally figured some v real shit out. that "i reconciled both sides of myself so i don't need my sasha fierce alter ego" line sounded corny when i first read it but i think there's a bit of truth to it.

what would be an interesting pop-in-2011 poll: beyoncé 4 vs katy b on a mission

(pj harvey's up there with them in my fav albums from this year but it's a different thing really)

what would be an interesting pop-in-2011 poll: beyoncé 4 vs katy b on a mission

Not really what I was going for with this poll, tho.

katy would put up more of a fight than lloyd personal-preference wise but i'm not sure i quite see the talking point?

i disagree, BTW feels too thought out and conscious of what it wanted to be - even though it's not a total failure in this regard, consequently its best moments are when you can forget about all the extraneous stuff gaga's trying to ladle on to it.

― lex pretend, Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:52 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark

putting aside the fact that self-consciousness is always rather a relative term when it comes to gaga, is something like 'teeth' really as innocent in this regard as all that? like for me an overrarching narrative would redeem its otherwise for-the-sake-of-it grossness, give it a place and reason to exist.

(similar argument to what i was saying with janelle monae actually.)

i think there's enough of a narrative on the fame monster for "teeth" to make sense? it's just less of a specific, (heavy-handed) thing than on BTW - more of a post-twilight horror movie aesthetic running through but never detracting from each of its songs (which don't sound artifically corralled into it, cuz it's a matter of imagery rather than plot)

the katy thing was just my personal preference

born this way = an artist trying way too hard & doing way too much, misunderstanding why she was good in the first place, and mostly failing in the process
4 = an artist comfortable w/ her life & her art, making the least adventurous yet best album of her career

― gucci mande (J0rdan S.), Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:22 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark

basically you've never been more right about anything

4 is Beyonce's Bedtime Stories.

YES

Born This Way = an artist both taking advantage of and calling out to her constituency, and staying mostly on point even if that core audience probably resents her talking on their behalf
4 = an artist realizing her mirror is her best friend and muse

bedtime stories! that comparison seems intuitively interesting even though bedtime stories kind of goes in a melancholy direction from a similar starting point?

xp yes btw calls out to its constituency ... without much inspiration in terms of composition or direction

Although I don't consider BS Madonna's best album, it was released after her peak as a singer and writer, and her vocal confidence is such that she can finally sing conventional R&B.

"I Miss You" shares a sonic bloodline with Madonna tracks like "Love Tried To Welcome Me" and "Forbidden Love."

i think there's enough of a narrative on the fame monster for "teeth" to make sense? it's just less of a specific, (heavy-handed) thing than on BTW - more of a post-twilight horror movie aesthetic running through but never detracting from each of its songs (which don't sound artifically corralled into it, cuz it's a matter of imagery rather than plot)

― lex pretend, Thursday, 14 July 2011 17:10 (23 minutes ago) Bookmark

idk see i might argue on btw it's like you have all these heavily specific localised vignettes that in terms of the album work together as this big imagistic meta rollercoaster? like i wouldnt say it was teasingly subtle or anything but it's nothing like as leaden and inept as being made out

sigh i suppose i should probably listen to it again now

oh i don't think BTW is a huge failure - it's just that every so often it goes totally overboard with hammering the point home (title track, "bad kids" etc) and that infects the surroundings somewhat. like taken on their own songs like "electric chapel", "scheiße", "bloody mary" are pretty great.

(actually why BTW ultimately left me cold is that the big overblown ~emotional~ tracks - "highway unicorn" and "you and i" - never battered me into submission like i expected them to, i kind of can't deal with them)

oh i don't think BTW is a huge failure - it's just that every so often it goes totally overboard with hammering the point home (title track, "bad kids" etc) and that infects the surroundings somewhat. like taken on their own songs like "electric chapel", "scheiße", "bloody mary" are pretty great.

summaries like this don't hold, cuz (at least here on ILM) there's no consensus abt the best songs. i hate judas and americano, jordan seems to love them. lex sees bad kids as emblematic of the album's failures while alfred loves it. it's not an album with obvious hits and misses. instead it's a weird grab bag of odd appeals, each song with good and bad points, each more likely to speak to some fans than others.

There doesn't have to be a consensus on the best songs for that criticism to be valid; different people can have different tolerances for different parts of the album and they all can still have exactly the type of reaction described to the album as a whole.

I hate "Hair," but recognize that it must be one of the album's highlights if it's just barely behind "Edge of Glory" in the overall consensus here.

There doesn't have to be a consensus on the best songs for that criticism to be valid

yeah, okay, that's fair. and i think the title track goes overboard myself, to the slight detriment of the album as a whole. and as there does seem to be some consensus about the failure of that song and about the album's relentless all-caps overstatement, especially when it comes to the production, i'd cosign lex's criticism to a certain extent.

but one of the things that i think ultimately saves the album is that it seems so intentionally designed as a love letter to a motley fan base. i have the sense that this should be a weakness, a sign of overthinking, self-doubt or pandering ― and it does pander, does it ever, but not in a way that bothers me. BTW's unapologetic directness as a freak magnet and freak flag is what makes it work, gives its bluster some emotional depth (and in the case of the title track, what trips it up). would note that lex's favorite songs tend to soft pedal that emo/weirdo outreach, so i'm not sure that his criticism, valid as it may be, takes much away from what the album does well.

Incidentally, do we actually buy the idea of the "motley fan base"?

I have seen no evidence IRL that Gaga fans are more ugly to look upon or marginally positioned within society than fans of any pop star.

most of gaga's album did not interest me. 4 is a very good album with some great tracks on it.

the actual constituency doesn't matter, was talking more about how gaga conceives/defines them

like, the genius of gaga (and tao lin, who i'm reading due to the intensity of loathing focused on him in another thread) lies in recognizing that a great many more-or-less normal people get something out of imagining that they're sadder, weirder and more fucked up than those around them. teens and young people especially.

come on, that's like the most dog-eared bit of genius ever

^^^^^^

At any rate I'm just not sure that it's true. I know Gaga's target fanbase and mostly they like to imagine that they're fabulous.

otoh i don't think they represent an exclusionary fabulousness though?

come on, that's like the most dog-eared bit of genius ever

well it is, of course, but it's also endlessly renewable.

again, talking about gaga's conception of her fanbase, as reflected in recent interviews and the content of this album. seems split between the fabulous and the damned.

just the usual hi-lo thing isnt it? where the only real freak is the hideously boring average earning normal middle class 9-5 guy.

okay, yeah

the only case i see for the genius of gaga is not in innovation so much as her sheer force of synthesis. that's where btw and all her best stuff impresses me.

still think 'judas' is an ill blu homage btw

In some ways I think ke$ha could run the little monsters line more convincingly, though she's much the lesser artist obv.

Gaga's appeal to me is less about her relatability than its opposite. The impenetrable edifices of her songs. Where "born this way" the song falls down for me is that in by trying too openly to forge a connection with the audience gaga knocks over her own pedestal.

most of gagaB's album did not interest me. 4BTW is an album with some good tracks on it.

still think 'judas' is an ill blu homage btw

EW

Are you expressing an opinion or just mentally inserting their sonic signature?

i was referring to gaga's own exclamation of "EW" halfway through "judas" which i assume is where rtc is (rightly) getting that impression from!

I missed that in the song, all I remember is the DAAH-DA-AH-AH-GAR-GAR etc etc

the "ew" cracks me up -- "Judas" has totally grown on me, works better in album context

i still think Beyonce spends a sizable portion of every album strutting around in bad idea jeans and just happens to have the assets, so to speak, to make them still look pretty good most of the time, and 4 is no exception.

that sounds like a great topic sentence for a positive review

well it would be, i do like the album. i just prefer BTW and think Gaga owns her bad ideas better.

when i think about BTW, i imagine gaga juggling, doing a big song and dance, with a look of confused mania on her face

sonically i feel like it only sinks into the moment about half the time. which is a fair amount, i will admit.

4 only has 1 song on it i don't like.

<3 bad idea jeans

surm just cos you (and jordan) don't like mess doesnt mean that wasnt the mess gaga intended to make? if you wanna judge it solely on those terms then fine (i like more songs on the beyonce too) but otherwise don't construct this big false confusion narrative to make personal bias look like impartial insight

like i think we've all listened to enough mainstream pop and r&b records to know what actual dumb grasping panic looks like

Gaga's intentions don't matter; and as listeners (and critics) we can construct whatever narrative we please, no?

Granted I've only heard 4 twice so far, but I've listened to Gaga about 50 times and don't see B ever coming close to that.

surm just cos you (and jordan) don't like mess doesnt mean that wasnt the mess gaga intended to make? if you wanna judge it solely on those terms then fine (i like more songs on the beyonce too) but otherwise don't construct this big false confusion narrative to make personal bias look like impartial insight

― r|t|c, Monday, July 18, 2011 8:51 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

like i think we've all listened to enough mainstream pop and r&b records to know what actual dumb grasping panic looks like

― r|t|c, Monday, July 18, 2011 8:54 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

in other words, your rebuttal to my argument is that it is just my opinion? yes, that is true. most opinions are personally biased. that's like, what an opinion is. while some opinions are based more on facts than others, this is ilx, not the fucking new york times, and i can pretty much constrcut whatever narrative i want under the generally accepted assumption that on ilx, people dish out different views of varying objectivity.

like, i've been pretty good at using "i think" and "i feel" statements as opposed to "this music is confused and it sucks" statements. if you're annoyed by what i think, that's your problem.

i mean i'm sure gaga designed born this way so that it's messy and doesn't completely cohere but that doesn't mean you have to agree with the vision or execution?

meanwhile i think born this way is fun yet exhausting, but the exhausting part is kind of fun?

but i've got lingering unconscious affections for "albums" so 4 really appeals to me on that level; it's really well paced.

she didn't know exactly why she was recording them, or why she had them produced the way she did

just don't get that clear sense of belief in the material

like i can see the cutting room floor

an artist trying way too hard & doing way too much, misunderstanding why she was good in the first place, and mostly failing in the process

http://i.imgur.com/pzrW2.gif

uh, yea -- pretty sure you left off an "i get the feeling..." before that "she didn't know exactly why...: statement. those are all presented fairly and subjectively.

my saying "when i think about BTW, i imagine gaga juggling, doing a big song and dance, with a look of confused mania on her face" is pretty much the antithesis of trying to make an opinion look like impartial insight.

and i'm not sure how you can say that u "think we've all listened to enough mainstream pop and r&b records to know what actual dumb grasping panic looks like" at the same time that you are pretty much telling me that i don't know what dumb grasping looks like. "dumb grasping" is not an objective crit by nature.

i mean i'm sure gaga designed born this way so that it's messy and doesn't completely cohere but that doesn't mean you have to agree with the vision or execution?

― preschoolin' life (BradNelson), Monday, 18 July 2011 21:22 (1 minute ago) Bookmark

absolutely! but surm's acting like she was randomly throwing shit against the wall

yeah, on some of the tracks, i think she is. what's your point? you disagree? great. point made. with a lot of extra hoopla.

for reference, here is my actual statement "to me a lot of the songs on born this way sound like she didn't know exactly why she was recording them, or why she had them produced the way she did"

oh and here is an example of a rational way to respond in disagreement, without being antagonistic, courtesy of lex:

"i disagree, BTW feels too thought out and conscious of what it wanted to be - even though it's not a total failure in this regard, consequently its best moments are when you can forget about all the extraneous stuff gaga's trying to ladle on to it."

I assume most artists DO throw shit on the wall and have no idea whether we'll like it -- it doesn't detract from the quality of the shit.

This isn't at ALL how I envisioned this thread would go.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/97pbwj.gif

we can get along, both sides are winners surely. i'd vote for both if i could.

http://images.emusic.com/img/artist/115/291/11529149.jpeg

I would absolutely love it if, at some point, 4 emerges after some three dozen listens as Beyonce's quiet, unforced masterpiece on the order of, say, Fulfillingness First Finale. Hasn't done that yet, for me, but I'm open to the possibility. Those fast tracks will always be a big problem, tho.

i think what r t c was trying to say is that i am projecting, which i will grant is valid; i do not know gaga's intentions. what i can say is that a good portion of the album goes one step too far for me (i.e. the turning point in 'hair' when u realize exactly the kind of broadway-punk-musical mania she's going for). if she had pulled back on some of it in terms of composition and production, the songs might be able to move more.

not to mention my first reaction to btw, the album and the song, which is that a lot of sounds borrowed.

lol "trying to say"... seems like projecting your difficulites is bit of a habit

no qualms whatsoever with the rest of your post mind

i guess i walked right into that one, but i said "trying to say" because i do not think you were especially clear in your reaction to my observations, and i think you were slightly obnoxious. but whatever, maybe slightly obnoxious is just part of your posting style. in any event, trying to understand what people are trying to say is what conversation is, even if it could be dubbed as projecting.

OTT second-person album engenders crazily first-person response, huh.

pretty much. i hope we can be friends again by christmastime rtc, i always kind of liked you.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Thanks, bud.