I'm sorry but Paul Simon is so overrated

Just happened to catch him on Saturday Night Live tonight and it reconfirms what I have believed ever since the late seventies. This man is so overrated it's pathetic!! It is so clear that the talent behind Simon and Garfunkel rests solely in his taller, silent partner.

Can someone please explain to me where the artistry is in One Trick Pony, Graceland or any of the other nonsense drivel that people salivate over, not to mention the deplorable My Bodyguard? Please!!!

i have sent ears to you via second day air

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/FullTextSearchControllerServlet

You're mean.

op, do you not even like 'Me & Julio' or '50 Ways'?

terrible troll thread

captainlorax dnftt

He was a mean individual.

http://www.wolfjawcapital.com/images/alamac_logo.gif

Is he really that highly rated though? He wrote a string of classic songs of course, but never reached the level of some of his contemporaries like Dylan or Leonard Cohen, and he seems to know it. Apart from that he seems like kind of a douchebag and hasn't done anything worthwhile since some time in the '70s.

I would argue that Paul Simon is probably more highly regarded by your average person than Leonard Cohen.

Wait, that reads off. Maybe more well known? I guess I just feel like Paul Simon is loads more popular that Cohen.

yeah, definitely. maybe I'm way off base but I do feel like there's this certain quality about Simon where he knows he never really reached the level he wanted to attain. does that make any sense?

I usually come in second to (to Dylan), and I don't like coming in second. ...One of my deficiencies is my voice sounds sincere. I've tried to sound ironic. I don't. I can't. Dylan, everything he sings has two meanings. He's telling you the truth and making fun of you at the same time. I sound sincere every time.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/may/12/paul-simon-bob-dylan

He wrote a string of classic songs of course, but never reached the level of some of his contemporaries like Dylan or Leonard Cohen, and he seems to know it. Apart from that he seems like kind of a douchebag and hasn't done anything worthwhile since some time in the '70s.

The American Donovan?

Simon is way more popular than Cohen, and suggesting that SImon hasn't done anything worthwhile since the '70s is LOLy. In fact, he did his best work after the '70s! Unless, of course, you really, truly don't like "Graceland" or "Rhythm of the Saints" or the new one, in which case, I'm sorry. But I'd put Paul Simon's best work (with G and solo) up against many of his era. Certainly he's no less a cultural signifier.

that first song he did on snl was dope iirc

i'll kill you

not you, j0rdan, the threadstarter

I really really truly do not like Graceland. Because it's shit. Can't say I've heard anything after that.

And I bought the damn album when it came out! listened to it as a child. it doesn't hold up

you don't hold up!

true

I really really truly do not like Graceland. Because it's shit. Can't say I've heard anything after that.

― lizard tails, a self-regenerating food source for survival (wk), Sunday, August 7, 2011 6:07 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

least fav new poster

that first song he did on snl was dope iirc

― J0rdan S., Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:59 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

here is a better paul simon thread
POLL paul simon - the rhythm of the saints

i'm often grateful of deej, maybe never more so than when he had me download 'rhythm of the saints' two summers ago

i have to say im p shocked that you started a paul simon poll but even moreso that deej likes paul simon!!!

paul simon vs cohen is interesting to me, i would never think to group them together really but simon is probably a better and more versatile songwriter but cohens a 'better' lyricist and performer. 'graceland' and 'songs of love and hate' are p much both all time for me tho

stupid challop but i guess this is the thread for it: much of simon's best work was done before he started recording under his own name

it is funny that someone made this thread tho because i have been listening to so much paul simon lately!

i guess thats not funny really

least fav new poster

nah, you probably already hated me when I started posting here in 2004

the funny thing though is that I think I was kind of defending Simon? in that I think he's not really THAT highly rated, and even seems to have some kind of inferiority complex about his legacy. Despite the fact that he's an obvious classic who wrote some monster songs that have become all-time standards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u2Xgbct7cw

didnt know this had an official vid

why deny the obvious sock?

― buzza, Tuesday, November 16, 2010

hahaha

wtf is this thread?

I don't care for solo Paul Simon either. Graceland was boring.

f a h8r, paul 4 lyfe

Is he really that highly rated though?

no idea what this means.

so many SBs to give out in this thread

also simon is a better lyricist than stupid ol leonard cohen--there are very few people who can write words to music (and perform them) better than paul simon can--also graceland is really amazing

its funny that you should mention writing words to music and graceland in the same breath because its my understanding that it was his first album using that method, before that it was always music to words, and das why graceland feels so free

and fwiw cohen owns, lets all be cool

If "consensus" matters, then the consensus about Simon's eponymous debut, Still Crazy..., and Graceland still holds. Matos said in a recent column that So Beautiful or So What was so far his favorite album of the year.

I like Cohen too! I don't have a problem with someone preferring Cohen to Simon; I just don't get this "highly rated" stuff. We're not talking about James Taylor or Al Stewart here.

great thread

This man is so overrated it's pathetic!!

generally speaking when someone drags "it's pathetic!!" or some variation thereof into their criticism it's because they are---or have the critical faculties of---a fourteen year old venting on facebook

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXGBgMBpsI

ITT: You can't say "___ sucks" anymore, it's a weird internet rule.

I will say, having seen both Cohen and Simon live in recent years, that Cohen may be the only great living singer/songwriter who may be less of a singer than Simon. Not that it matters, in either case. I'll happily accept Cohen's monotone rumble and Simon's limited but nimble sing-song.

maybe I'm way off base but I do feel like there's this certain quality about Simon where he knows he never really reached the level he wanted to attain

I remember reading in that David Browne book "Fire & Rain" that Simon didn't feel like he got his due as a songwriter and was always chasing the kind of respect that Dylan got. Also it pissed him off that people gave Garfunkel most of credit for BOTW even though Simon wrote it. And when he wanted to go solo Clive Davis basically told him that he wasn't well known enough to be a success on his own.

yeah PS does not seem very humble or earnest. not that it detracts from his music.

feel like simon never quite got the props of those other dudes cause hes not you know cool

legendarily one of the nastiest sob's as a person in music. that said, i like not love s&g, love the early solo records, and hate graceland with the passion of a billion white hot suns

really? Post some nasty SOB stories!

Has he done anything to top this?

there's always that Los Lobos story

I'm not sure I believe Los Lobos, or rather, I'm not sure they understood the danger of working with a singer-songwriter.

I assume every famous person is a bit of an SOB, but Simon doesn't seem any worse than most.

Certainly do not understand comparisons to Leonard Cohen who in my view is legend. I guess I am rather bewildered at how someone behind classics like Bridge Over Troubled Water could sink to the lows that he has over the years. I disagree that he seems to know he hasn't reached the level of his contemporaries. From what I can tell he seems to believe in his own pretension.

"believing in your own pretensions" is tautological, isn't it?

I hate BOTW tbh.

I've increasingly come to believe the Los Lobos story is bullshit at worst, a misunderstanding at best. Lot least because Simon made a concerted effort to actual credit many of his African collaborators on that album:

"The Boy in the Bubble" (Forere Motloheloa/Paul Simon) - 3:59
"I Know What I Know" (General MD Shirinda/Simon) - 3:13
"Gumboots" (Lulu Masilela/Jonhjon Mkhalali/Simon) - 2:44
"Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes" (Joseph Shabalala/Simon) - 5:45
"Homeless" (Shabalala/Simon) - 3:48

If he wasn't going to fuck the Africans, why would he fuck Los Lobos?

was last night the first time you've ever seen a gray-haired old music icon playing lesser new material on TV? xpost

Yes, probably tautological. Can someone please tell the Los Lobos story.

los lobos always sounded like a bunch of whiners and their music is sort of bad.

http://www.jambase.com/Articles/9391/LONE-WOLF-HANGIN%27-WITH-STEVE-BERLIN/0

Retroactively, he had to give songwriting credit to all the African guys he stole from that were working on it and everyone seemed to forget.

uh he gave them songwriting credit on the original album!

So we go back in the second day wondering why we're there. It was ridiculous. I think David starts playing "The Myth of the Fingerprints," or whatever he ended up calling it. That was one of our songs. That year, that was a song we started working on By Light of the Moon. So that was like an existing Lobos sketch of an idea that we had already started doing. I don't think there were any recordings of it, but we had messed around with it. We knew we were gonna do it. It was gonna turn into a song. Paul goes, "Hey, what's that?" We start playing what we have of it, and it is exactly what you hear on the record. So we're like, "Oh, ok. We'll share this song."

This may be true but I blame the band's naivete.

lol i dont really care if paul simon is an awful human being but the way lobos bro tells that story it makes no sense at all

I think David starts playing "The Myth of the Fingerprints," or whatever he ended up calling it. That was one of our songs.

aggrieved studio musicians are the art of pretend forgetfulness

I just find it difficult to believe that a band whose reputation was already as high as Los Lobos would walk into a Lenny Waronker-arranged studio collaboration with Paul fucking Simon and not understand the consequences.

if it's any consolation, Lobos bro, "The Myth of Fingerprints" is one of the album's weaker songs.

this is my fav part:

We go into the studio, and he had quite literally nothing. I mean, he had no ideas, no concepts, and said, "Well, let's just jam." We said, "We don't really do that." When we jam, we'll switch instruments. Dave will play drums, I'll play something. We don't really jam. Especially in that era. Louie will be the first to tell you this – he was made to play drums. They forced him to play drums. He's not really a drummer by trade. He's never practiced a moment in his life. Not once in his life did he sit down at the drums because of his love for drumming. The other three guys made him play drums in the early days, so he sort of became drummer by default. He hates playing the instrument, I think.

wahhhh they FORCED him to play drums!

if it's any consolation, Lobos bro, "The Myth of Fingerprints" is one of the album's weaker songs.

― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, August 7, 2011 10:08 AM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ehh it's obviously tossed off but the chorus lyrics slay me

I mean there's no doubt about it
It was the myth of pretend forgetfulness

we jammed, which was a horrible idea that produced a classic album, he stole our songs that sound nothing like los lobos but a lot like paul simon, gave credit to everyone else he worked with, made a dude play drums, we couldve sued him but still havent

I like the way he keeps saying "favor to the family"

also the little detail about paul simon mispronouncing 'zydeco' (even tho he gets it right... ON THE ALBUM)

cause lobos told him is why

lowblows

Fusion.
The intermingling of two musics.
I say it's the music of the future
And, hey, I oughta know.
Have you heard my latest album?
It's a masterpiece of fusion,
Just a masterpiece of fusion
If I do say so myself.
A true collaboration of the heaviest musicians on the planet.

That's Sakimoto playing the bamboo flute.
He's a monster.
And Big Joseph Nabuma on mbira.
Check it out.
And over on cabasa...who is that on cabasa?
Oh yeah, that's the guy who drove me in from the airport.
I forget his name, but he's a monster, too.
We're all just monsters of--

Fusion.
We're intermingling our musics
In a welter of ethnic confusion.
(Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe.
Anh anh.
Zimbabwe, zimbabwe.
Anh anh.
Savuca! Loodloodloodloodloodloodloodloo!)

This pretty tune was written by Hans Leo Hassler
In 1599.
I wrote some words and changed about three notes.
Now ASCAP says it's mine.
I love constructing albums
From objects that I find,

From all kinds of folk riffs
That are just sort of out there.
Nobody owns them. They're in public domain.
And the foreign musicians
Who play those folk riffs,
Well, they're just grist for my fevered brain.

Mama, don't take my copyright.
Gimme that folk riff copyright.
Mama, don't take my copyright from me.
There've been slurs and innuendoes.
There've been nasty little comments.
I don't bother to respond to them.
They roll right off my back.
I'm well aware that there's an element
You could call "exploitation"
In the way that I appropriate the cultures of these peoples
For my own commercial purposes.

But everyone who works for me gets
Credit.
And royalties
And Grammys
And a chance to ride to stardom on my coattails, lay lay lay.
But, hey, let's just remember who's the genius here,
Who is the Master of--

Fusion?
Fusion.
It's a matter of "Finders Keepers."
Cause there ain't no copyrights in
Fusion.
Fusion.
We're all just ripping off each other
In a jungle of ethical con-Fusion.
And having a hell of a lot of fun.
I'm having a hell of a lot of
Ballpark.
I'm thinking this song is in the
Ballpark... (fade)

That was ripped off from an idea I had but never wrote down.

I could never figure out what Los Lobos was doing on that album, anyway.

ILM is feeling like ILM circa 2004, lately.

frankly i just dont get people who dont like graceland.

xpost cool I love c.2004 ILM

maybe start a new board, "ILM Classic"

Re: Los Lobos: Tite Curet Alonso, a greater songwriter than Simon, with a much better reputation as a person, also complained about collaborating with Simon on the Capeman. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

maybe start a new board, "ILM Classic"

― swaguirre, the wrath of basedgod (bernard snowy), Sunday, August 7, 2011 11:15 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

can i play Alex in NYC if the original article isn't available?

x-post

Acutally, he didn't really say anything devastating about Simon, just said that Simon wasn't really looking for a collaborator when he enlisted Curet Alonso's help in doing research for the Capeman. I don't know if he ever said that Simon had suggested otherwise to begin with.

that thing he did with eno is the only simon album i have that i don't love (there's something about how the vocals are mixed so high)

what kills it for me is the production on his albums, hearts and bones and rhythm of the saints especially are so sick. the sound of the guitar on hearts and bones (he's also a really interesting and underrated guitar player i think). one thing i like about him is that his best work is his more mature work. like he got better. so many musicians blow their wad, but he obviously spent a lot of his time w/ art garfunkel kindof just focussed on songwriting (stuff like cecelia is more the exception and where you get an inkling of where he might be going with all of this) but his songwriting style is just so *crafted.* his lyrics have a short story quality about them, they're more about observed detail than strong images, although his descriptions are really original ("the Mississippi delta was shining like a national guitar"). i mean i could go on, he works well with collaborators, the south african musicians on graceland, the singer on spirit voices (and the way that works as the spirit voice of the song is so ghostly and beautiful) which is funny in light of people saying that he is really anxious about his reputation, i think his best work is just so comfortably masterful. he lets other people shine. i love the way he uses choirs and backup singers, the "oooohs" on hearts and bones just sound incredible. like he has this way of just lightly touching and orchestrating everything around him. he always seems quietly in control.

plax otm

also simon is a better lyricist than stupid ol leonard cohen

lol this is up on some Budweiser-is-better-than-Chateau-Latour stuff

(he's also a really interesting and underrated guitar player i think)

this however is otm. dude can really play. as a lyricist he's maybe the fifteenth best of his generation

as a lyricist he's maybe the fifteenth best of his generation

I love how that initially parses as a diss until you think, hey, 15th of a generation ain't bad!

that first song he did on snl was dope iirc

― J0rdan S., Sunday, August 7, 2011 12:59 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark

this!

Otherwise all I have to say is S&G is essential, I can't do without it.

I like Simon's lyrics, because he's such a big proponent of elliptical phrases that just fit or sound right even if they don't make a lot of sense, and he's man/rich enough to admit it, too.

I love how that initially parses as a diss until you think, hey, 15th of a generation ain't bad!

yeah this is true! he's really good! but he's really not very daring - "Richard Corey" is a great poem by an underrated poet, but it's sort of telling that Robinson's sort of you-can-parse-this-cleanly style is where he goes when Cohen & Dylan are reading say Baudelaire and Rimbaud

i strongly dislike paul simon

a song like gumboots where he doesn't mention new york and its all african musicians but i hear it and i'm on prince street in autumn, i don't think his parsability accounts for how evocative he can be.

always felt like he vacillated btw adult contempo island rock and over-poignant emotionality. neither work for me.

whaaaaaat

"island rock"

you are crazy

yeah this is true! he's really good! but he's really not very daring - "Richard Corey" is a great poem by an underrated poet, but it's sort of telling that Robinson's sort of you-can-parse-this-cleanly style is where he goes when Cohen & Dylan are reading say Baudelaire and Rimbaud

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, August 7, 2011 12:18 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

youre a snob

the mama pajama rolled out of bed and logged onto ILX to post

youre a snob

http://freesamplefreak.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/commercials-grey-poupon.jpg

do u have any french poets that i could smear on my leonard cohen sandwich

it's true i have been really into clarity in song lyrics lately. i like leonard cohen, too, though; it wouldn't really occur to me to pit him against simon.

i don't get cohen until he puts on a corny deep voice and starts singing things like STICK ANOTHER TURTLE ON THE FIRE / GUYS LIKE ME ARE MAD FOR TURTLE MEAT. that's obv better than paul simon but that aside they're about on par for me.

"no one listens to me, I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record..."

i like leonard cohen too i was just being mean

i value your services itt max

also surm y u braek hart

paul simon is the best and people who dont like him can go str8 to hell

exactly

been listening to hearts and bones, the album, a lot lately. the smartest people in the world are gathered in los angeles / to analyze our love affair and finally unscramble us.

the new album is really good, too.

max srsly tho I get that you love Paul Simon, kick ass, but it's not snobby to say that he's formally a lot more limited than Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, Randy Newman, Phil Ochs, Townes van Zandt, Neil Young, and others - those people all really stretch out a lot. Not always successfully! but Paul Simon is musically kind of...ignorant?

Simon doesn't really dislike the idea of musical theater, only what the musical theater has become. So as much as he may shake his head in dismay at the success of "Cats," he happily listens to the likes of George and Ira Gershwin, Jerome Kern, Oscar Hammerstein and Cole Porter.

"It's not rock and roll, but I liked it," he says, then laughs. "I didn't mean to parody the Stones, but that's exactly what it is. I liked it.

"But it ended up in a weird cul de sac -- probably because it was never energized by rock and roll," he says. As Simon sees it, the trouble with modern musical theater is that "it's all descended either from the musical theater from its heyday in the '40s and '50s, or it's the English variant that Andrew Lloyd Webber popularized. Those are the two mainstreams of what a Broadway musical is today."

Trouble is, there's nothing terribly special about the music these plays employ. "There are all of these different stories out there, but the music kind of all sounds the same," Simon says.

You're sort of doomed to complacency when you think that what the stage that gives us Sondheim needs is...you!!!

the smartest people in the world are gathered in los angeles / to analyze our love affair and finally unscramble us.

typed this in all caps, clicked "submit", your post appeared

i guess i should red some edwin arlington robinson

xp <3

I mean I will defend him against people who say he sucks, but he really is kind of a Lou Reed figure. "Hey guys guess what I just discovered last week and now I have a lot to say about it? African music!!!"

Graceland, which is the only record of his that I have burned into my brain deeply enough to play this game with, has some flat-out corny lyrics but imho they are generally salvaged by the delivery (best example that comes to mind = "hey señorita, that's astute / why don't we get together and call ourselves an institute?")

then again it also has its moments of absolutely undeniable brilliance e.g. "she said 'honey, take me dancing' but they ended up sleeping in a doorway"

"Next, I will discover Cuba and Brazil, you ungrateful fucks!!"

aerosmith OTM re:sondheim/theatre/complaceny

that was a dumb thing he said about musical theater and maybe it does reflect badly on his approach to music but the self-titled album is still one of my favorite things in the world.

not tryna to play cap'n save-a-dilettante here but didn't the whole apartheid/sanctions situation make it kind of... difficult... for western musicians to engage more deeply with their african peers?

also real-time LOLs at this:

It is so clear that the talent behind Simon and Garfunkel rests solely in his taller, silent partner.

tho I would love to read a passionate defense of Artie's artsitry

"Next, I will discover Cuba and Brazil, you ungrateful fucks!!"

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:55 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

... idg where you're getting this from

i think graceland is one of my least favourite just because of the big gated drums

fwiw simon captures such a unique vibe w/ his lyrics and songwriting that calling him 'limited' in comparison to neil young joni mitchell et al seems really shortsighted. limited in what sense? being himself?

lou reed vs paul simon might actually be competitive on ilm

haha i knew i would virulently disagree with plax EVENTUALLY in this thread

lol

Stealing song from Los Lobos: Dud
Dabblings in and pronouncements on Broadway: Dud
Downplaying Artie's G contribution: Dud
Not making use of surrealist lyrical tradition in rock drawn from reading a few French poets and borrowing/stealing lyrics from Robert Johnson and old weird America songs on the assumption that they had already been borrowed: Fine with me
Everything else: Classic

i mean i love it and along with rumours its the album that i inherited from my parents but hearts and bones or rhythm of the saints easily take it (h+b is patchy as hell though)

fwiw simon captures such a unique vibe w/ his lyrics and songwriting that calling him 'limited' in comparison to neil young joni mitchell et al seems really shortsighted. limited in what sense? being himself?

limited in the sense of being pretty content with the self he located early on. Joni Mitchell can't stand to sit still for longer than an album or two, ditto Neil Young. Change up the instrumentation on "Me & Julio" and it fits fine on "Graceland."

john dogg if u want me to dig up bob dylan and leonard cohen saying embarrassing things in their interviews i will but you gotta wait till i get off work

do you like the 70s albums, plax? also i want Lamp to come back and explain his challop: S&G is better than Simon solo, or, like, that jerry landis stuff?

keep a cool head and always carry a light bulb xp

lou reed vs paul simon might actually be competitive on ilm

― iatee, Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:00 PM (22 seconds ago)

teamed up

I mean I will defend him against people who say he sucks, but he really is kind of a Lou Reed figure. "Hey guys guess what I just discovered last week and now I have a lot to say about it? African music!!!"

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, August 7, 2011 12:54 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it may be unsavory but if this is what it takes to make a great album then so be it

limited in the sense of being pretty content with the self he located early on. Joni Mitchell can't stand to sit still for longer than an album or two, ditto Neil Young.

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:03 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i love neil young like a brother but srlsy UH

for every embarrassing bob dylan interview quote you could come up with 10 'worth putting in a book' utterly classic quotes.e not sure you could say that about paul simon. (or anybody else really)

bob dylan and leonard cohen both give great interviews, it's true. don't really think of leonard cohen as someone who's constantly switching things up, not that it matters, great lyrics are great lyrics.

... idg where you're getting this from

it's just a lol

I mean it is true that it's a little weird when a guy who never showed any interest whatsoever in these musics just suddenly wakes up one day and says "whaddaya know, African music!" and, having had towering success with that...loses all interest in pursuing the genre further - like "I did African music, now I'll conquer the islands" - those musics are titanic, rich, endlessly complex, to "do an album" in that style is a little colonial you know? it's not like it's any crime to explore and participate in the musics of other cultures but when it looks like your interest was limited to some dilettante cultural-buffetism...idk man. Like again I think the dude is good but I would think that if you loved that music you'd explore Ghana, Nigeria, the sub-Sahara instead of going "well I did some South African stuff...now, on to Brazil!!"

you know what i look for in music, great interview skills

lol

So you are saying he should go the Ry Cooder route, John?

I mean obv everybody says dumb shit in interviews but in this case it's kind of evidence that Paul Simon's awareness of the music he's working with is profoundly limited. "What Broadway needs is rock and roll!" --srsly you guys are into that grandpaism? cool get yrs but it's kind of a v. lame look.

Joni Mitchell fwiw is way worse in interviews but I haven't see her say shit that is musically just igno-extreme like that

lol john as a child of the 80s i knew you eventually wouldnt be able to resist calling graceland 'a lil colonial'

aero everyone thinks what he said about musical theater was dumb

xp I'm saying a guy who "dabbles in world music" deserves some routine "srsly dude fuck off"s along with the propers he deserves for being a great songwriter

haha yes what i like about paul simon is his grandpaism

are we even talking about lyrics anymore or just stuff that annoys john about paul simon

whaaaaaat

"island rock"

you are crazy

― max, Sunday, 7 August 2011 16:38 (34 minutes ago)

yeah, cuz this is such a stretch

lol john as a child of the 80s i knew you eventually wouldnt be able to resist calling graceland 'a lil colonial'

jhosh I'm givin you a promotion

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/126/f17b062bea0e266e246cd2bec7c16596/m.jpg

it is, surm, i mean unless the island youre talking about is manhattan

are we even talking about lyrics anymore or just stuff that annoys john about paul simon

I think what's going on is I said a couple things & ppl who love paul simon are really eager to pretend that Simon's specifically musical opinions & practices have nothing to do with his music?

"Paul Simon wrote a musical, and in doing interviews about this musical revealed that he was profoundly ignorant about musicals...this obviously has nothing to do with his music"

i don't know i also like this point:

Not making use of surrealist lyrical tradition in rock drawn from reading a few French poets and borrowing/stealing lyrics from Robert Johnson and old weird America songs on the assumption that they had already been borrowed: Fine with me

heres what i remember

me: paul simon rules leonard cohen drools
you: leonard cohen loves french poets
me: whatever
you: paul simon doesnt know anything about broadway
everyone: yep
you: paul simon is a colonialist
everyone: okay...?

paul simon may not have a musicologists understanding of the various musics of the world, he may not even have a plain txt message board posters cultural understanding, but he pretty clearly gets something abt making music which is why listening to the deeply sensitive soundz of graceland renders all the reductionist cries of cultural imperialism hegemony! silly

admittedly I never heard You're the One which was evidently Paul's penetrating look at "North African" music

i mean its a beautiful piece of music, who cares if he had to enslave los lobos to get there!

the deep sensitivity is the key

yeah I mean max it's a thread for talking about whether paul simon is overrated I think if discussing paul simon's songwriting thoughts & practices is a bummer to you you are on the wrong thread

i am probably going to fumble this observation but i'm not sure there's a way that paul simon could have made an African music album that was not colonial in the sense you mean, aero? i take your point that he could have gone further and you're right, he made use of african music to do a thing he was already doing, but that's what musicians do, right? i'm not saying there are no ethical stakes. i don't know, i love graceland so much, i am totally implicated in its colonialism.

me: paul simon rules leonard cohen drools

this thread title is stupid but i mean lets not go crazy here

i went a little crazy there i admit it

i feel like its p much an insult to the musicians he worked w/on graceland to call it colonialist, i mean who are they in this story

i am not really interested in doing anything but defending paul simon from the charge that he is not as good a lyricist as [insert yr favorite grizzled baudelaire fan here]

Lamp do you like the jerry landis stuff better than simon solo or s&g better? if the latter, u crazy, if the former i need to listen to these jerry landis songs

i feel like its p much an insult to the musicians he worked w/on graceland to call it colonialist, i mean who are they in this story

― ice cr?m, Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:22 PM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark

yeah like you can always a priori call an encounter between the first and third world colonial but it erases a lot of nuances

i don't think there's ever any indication in graceland that he's like *exploring* african music, i think he does keep it at arms length in this way, the same thing you're complaining about is a big strength i think for me. like he's not interested in african music AS african music or like taking this almost anthropological route with it, i think he's just thinking about how these are cool musicians to work with, let's see how we can get some milage out of this. i think for somebody that started out with like straight acoustic guitar and voice songwriting, he has spent a lot of recording time like *loosening* up the structures of his songs, from his first solo album on you get the sense of him moving in different directions (the lush jazziness and disco flourishes on h+b, the jam band vibe on one trick pony) that open out the rigid structures of his songs (his s/t is so good because he does this more successfully inside the songs themselves than ever again, peace like a river is the best example of what i mean but i don't know if i'm explaining this in any intelligible way at all) so like i get the feeling that he heard that careening highlife guitar sound and was like, "yeah that'll work, let's do an album like that" and so his interest in the music just works AS an interest in the music and not as something ethical and geographical and sociological but just like really formal and so it does seem pretty fair to me that he just dumped it after one (though listen to the guitar sound on father and daughter if you think he really DID just ditch that sound altogether) (i realise that there are major problems with this notion that hell i'm probably the ilxor most likely to jump on if somebody else started spouting them but in this case i'm willing to let him off the hook because rhythm of the saints is a damn good album and by john's prescription he shouldn't have made it)

ok lots of xps that more concisely say that than that block of bad grammar

peace like a river! i am obsessed with that song!

i am probably going to fumble this observation but i'm not sure there's a way that paul simon could have made an African music album that was not colonial in the sense you mean, aero? i take your point that he could have gone further and you're right, he made use of african music to do a thing he was already doing, but that's what musicians do, right? i'm not saying there are no ethical stakes. i don't know, i love graceland so much, i am totally implicated in its colonialism.

No, look, this is the question, and it's a hard q imo (and one that people've done plenty of handwringing about no doubt). There's going to be an element of cultural tourism no matter what, but most musicians & some (correct imo) listeners will say "look, music's a global conversation, what am I supposed to do, genuflect in front of a map or play benefits before I participate in that conversation, fuck you," but at the same time Simon's engagement with these musics seems profoundly superficial to me? I get that for max & many others "the only thing that matters is whether the tunes are good" -- and they are, you have to be an idiot to deny it -- but this is sort of symptomatic of a broader superficiality in his whole view, cf. "musical theatre! it's narrow, because I know nothing about it!"

Something So Right is my Simon jam

xpost

jhosh I'm givin you a promotion

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:15 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol ty, ty

whoa hold on i am specifically not commenting on the colonialism or lack thereof of graceland lets not put words in my mouth

someone near the very start of the thread said that simon was less artisticly successful than cohen and dylan and i was surprised both by the comparison (i would never have really thought to lump cohen and simon 2gether) and by the statement (although i figure thats the sort of thing thats deeply dependent on where ur cummin from so)

but i kinda liked the comparison as a 'thought exercise' once it had been made cuz they do sorta parallel well and my fave albums by both are really different in tone and spirit but ill stick by my early assessments. also i mean i love both of those dudes records a lot they are the best!!!

john has now successfully hijacked this conversation away from a discussion of the lyrical merits of paul simon vs. leonard cohen because he knew he was going to lose

totally, leonard cohen + paul simon 4eva!

having said that I will always sigh deeply in appreciation at "And I could say Oo oo oo/As if everybody knows/What I'm talking about/As if everybody would know/Exactly what I was talking about"

i dont really know any leonard cohen

so i dont mind us not talking about leonard cohen

john has now successfully hijacked this conversation away from a discussion of the lyrical merits of paul simon vs. leonard cohen because he knew he was going to lose

can you point me at this imaginary earlier lyrical merits vs. discussion & the posts made abt? I mean literally everybody knows Simon's good & Cohen's great lyrics-wise, that's not even a discussion afaik

Lamp are you going to answer my question or what btw

stupid challop but i guess this is the thread for it: much of simon's best work was done before he started recording under his own name

― Lamp, Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:24 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark

i just want everyone to agree that i won the fight and then you can go back to yr colonialism 102 seminar

u don't fuck with early leonard cohen

i am not stipulating that anyone is a better lyricist than anyone else. except, i guess bob dylan is better than everyone, but whatever.

i just want everyone to agree that i won the fight and then you can go back to yr colonialism 102 seminar

I lol'd

Lamp do you like the jerry landis stuff better than simon solo or s&g better? if the latter, u crazy, if the former i need to listen to these jerry landis songs

i love the jerry landis stuff the best! i mean i know its not actually the best the way 'graceland' is but stuff like play me a sad song or lisa or lone teen ranger are some of my favorite paul simon ~songs~ maybe because theyre really limited in range and form, like these amazing static pop songs that still manage to be sorta weird and emotional idk

but this is why i wanted 2 do a longform paul simon poll - he has such a varied and distinct catalog & i think itd be rad to kinda see peoples take on that

i am going to lose my mind when the paul simon poll rolls around in 2012

wk was like "leonard cohen is better" and i was like "paul simon is as good a lyricist as leonard cohen" and then everyone felt like they had to defend leonard cohen, as though leonard cohen is someone who needs defending, leonard cohen winner of croatia's "porin" award, leonard cohen companion of the order of canada

yea rad like barf bags on airplanes xxp

okay listening to this jerry landis song on youtube and lolling at how in character it is for lamp to like this

paul simon may not have a musicologists understanding of the various musics of the world, he may not even have a plain txt message board posters cultural understanding, but he pretty clearly gets something abt making music which is why listening to the deeply sensitive soundz of graceland renders all the reductionist cries of cultural imperialism hegemony! silly

― ice cr?m, Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:18 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

crammy is otmmy

prince of asturias award more like piss on ass urea award

is this the lil fella in that chevy chase song?

its super crazy that paul simon has been recording music since the 1950s

haha all things considered he looks great

tbh as much as i <3 simon and a lot of his lyrics i kinda think that he's plowing a different furrow than dylan or cohen? not in subject matter or w/e but i've always considered him more of a ~sounds~ guy than those two? vague, i know, but i value the whole sonic experience of, say, hearts&bones more than visions of johanna or w/e. or: listening to graceland on tinny headphones would degrade the experience more severely than it would highway 61 revisited. imo

He a very short-lived musical called The Cave Man, I think. I loved the sndtrk to that and was super excited to get tickets only to arrive at the theater and find it had closed down. So bummed.

i know some nerd (AERO) is gonna come along talk about guitar tone or dylan's weird voice and what it all means, but i think the point stands

I mean if you really wanna go in on this, that's cool, the idea that I'm not a guy who'll talk about lyrics all day is a little lol, but Simon sort of specializes in formulaic exercises - I'm a huge defender of formulaic exercises, I think what sucks about 90-odd percent of lyrics is that people haven't learned the formulae. How to use a refrain ("Still Crazy") instead of a chorus, how to leave a loose end hanging as a way of enriching the lyric, how and when to peek out from behind the craft to make sure the reader sees & feels the human being who's speaking/singing (Graceland is his high-water mark for this, but he'd been working toward that sort of formal/personal meld his whole career, or at least since he went solo - "Kodachrome" hits it pretty nicely, "Me & Julio" too.

But in all these aspects he is decidedly Cohen's junior, forever a lesser light. Cohen's formal mastery is total ("The Story of Isaac"); but his ability to flesh out that formal mastery with personal & topical moments is also with peer ("The Story of Isaac"); his gift for imagery stands with the titans like Basho or Wallace Stevens ("The Story of Isaac"). He gives you all these looks in one song, is the point, and he does it over and over again.

As a melodicist there is no contest, Paul Simon can melodically kill Leonard Cohen every day before breakfast. But lyrically Paul Simon is, as he evidences with "Richard Cory," given to a fatal lack of depth - "I wish that I could be Richard Cory"? Really? Robinson needed that? That's what you took from that poem? Really? And again, this kinda points up Simon's attitude toward the stuff he engages: he thinks what great texts/musics are missing is the sterling insight of Paul Simon. Which is a little offputting, even when the melodic and lyrical gifts on display are as incontestibly good as his are.

with peer

without peer

damn scriveners

i do want you to talk about lyrics all day tbh

lol no you don't I am a fuckin blowhard.

see i can get with that aero (i'll cop to not being well-versed in cohen), it's just that it's simon's talent as a melodicist/"arranger" that, for me, pushes him into a distinctly different musical category---i'm not gonna dither between dylan and simon when i'm reaching for something to listen to, they're not hitting the same switches

xp no horseshoe otm

sorry bro

and i know that this is kinda pat and not v nuanced but it kills me and if i am in a car or my apartment it calls for maudlin singalongs

And tell me why
Why won't you love me
For who I am
Where I am
He said:
'Cause that's not the way the world is baby
This is how I love you, baby
This is how I love you, baby

i do think the s&g lyrics lack depth; they also irritate me a lot of the time. but he matured! this seems unfair:

he thinks what great texts/musics are missing is the sterling insight of Paul Simon

He a very short-lived musical called The Cave Man, I think. I loved the sndtrk to that and was super excited to get tickets only to arrive at the theater and find it had closed down. So bummed.

― ladies love draculas like children love stray dogs (ENBB), Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:46 PM Bookmark

close! it was The Capeman

haha i was about to say, lol the cave man

tbh as much as i <3 simon and a lot of his lyrics i kinda think that he's plowing a different furrow than dylan or cohen? not in subject matter or w/e but i've always considered him more of a ~sounds~ guy than those two?

I agree with this. The very specific sound of various Simon songs is one of the biggest draws for me in his music. I'd say he's more pop, but a 70s model of it.

As a melodicist there is no contest, Paul Simon can melodically kill Leonard Cohen every day before breakfast.

yeah this was basically the comparison i was tryna make (sorry max) cuz like '50 ways to leave your lover' is a total jam, catchy and funny and fun to listen to in a way cohen could never manage but when hes listing off the different ways so many of them are kinda nonsensical or awkward in order to fit the rhyme scheme ('get a new plan, stan'?) that it doesnt distract from the song but its still p corny

areo otm re simon and cohens relative lyrical merits, and thats a p insightful and interesting post altogether, my only complaint is maybe its not really that easy to tease simons lyrics from his melody and delivery, like they play vv well together in a way that cohens growling over plunking guitar steez doesnt, i mean i know i could just read the lyrics on a piece of paper or w/e but that i have no interest in doing so says something

paul simon is totally corny, i will admit, but i am, too, so

I remember the Capeman got some really harsh reviews. He went through three directors, and basically the response was that he seemed very naive about how Broadway shows worked....

his score was praised though (I remember hearing and liking "Bernadette")

xxxpost

richard cory is p early in simon's career & seems odd to hold against him
ps as a kid i liked that song for its traditional-ness i guess but i was raised on burl ives so

yeah this was basically the comparison i was tryna make (sorry max) cuz like '50 ways to leave your lover' is a total jam, catchy and funny and fun to listen to in a way cohen could never manage but when hes listing off the different ways so many of them are kinda nonsensical or awkward in order to fit the rhyme scheme ('get a new plan, stan'?) that it doesnt distract from the song but its still p corny

― Lamp, Sunday, August 7, 2011 5:58 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this feels almost too obviously corny to be 'corny' to me
if that makes sense

I had a longer post but I should own up that I relate more strongly to Cohen in part because melody is difficult for me, if it wasn't for mrs. aero being pretty ruthless about saying "melodically you're being boring there" I would get a lot more writing done & lots of it would sound exactly the same - whereas Simon specializes in breezy wasn't-this-always-just-sitting-right-there? melodies, enviably effortless feel

richard cory is p early in simon's career & seems odd to hold against him

this is what i meant when i said i didn't like simon & garfunkel lyrics. i guess it's true that he's obsessed with himself and his experiences but it doesn't hurt the later songwriting afaic.

Stealing song from Los Lobos: Dud

We only have dumb inarticulate Lobos guy's word for it!

I wish we wouldn't spend as much time discussing Simon's lyrics as we do about what interesting chordal patterns this guy picks on his guitar.

richard cory is p early in simon's career & seems odd to hold against him

fair point, though "I am a rock" is from the same phase

i am too dumb about that stuff :(

xp

I wish we wouldn't spend as much time discussing Simon's lyrics as we do about what interesting chordal patterns this guy picks on his guitar.

oh hush you, either say yourself what those chordal patterns are or cease yr whinin

I tend to pretend the S&G stuff doesn't exist to be honest.

yes he had flashes of brilliance during the garfunkel era but a lot of stuff was just embarrassing. and then paul simon is just so !!!

yes he had flashes of brilliance during the garfunkel era but a lot of stuff was just embarrassing. and then paul simon is just so !!!

makes you wonder who he ripped off amirite lol

JUST A JOKE EVERYBODY BE CALM.

okay listening to this jerry landis song on youtube and lolling at how in character it is for lamp to like this

ok lol @ this too btw iirc

haha i'll kill you >:[

xp

Capeman - that was it!!

Man I was so pissed that night.

i was raised on burl ives so

don't hate on burl btw, burl ives is real

i think spirit voices is a really good example of a lot of things i think about simon. like how musically its this shuffly samba but obviously he never sings like he's singing samba, he's just as happy here to preserve the exotic otherness of that style. so yeah at first it seems like this really horrible example of that imperialism 102 but then the singer singing portugese appears and he's like bathed in this metallic reverb and its a fucking apparition, and you realise that it works as this encapsulation of like mystical tourism or something. like its really beautiful and i love how the song *stages* the event instead of describing it ("all of these spirit voices rule the night") but it also seems to work as a sly wink to the listener about whats really going on when he plays with these other musics. idk i might be reading to much into it. but it does seem to integrate how fantastic simon is at integrating his songwriting with his sonic formalism.

oh im not at all -- just thinking that richard cory's straightforward storytelling style prob appealed to me at the time for that reason xp

One and one-half wandering jews
Free to wander wherever they choose
Are travelling together
In the sangre de cristo
The blood of christ mountains
Of new mexico
On the last leg of the journey
They started a long time ago
The arc of a love affair
Rainbows in the high desert air

otm

my favourite line in that song is "the bride was contagious/ she burned like a bride"

she burned like a bride

it's sad...

even Carrie Fisher must have soul

fwiw aretha tore brooklyn apart with a paul simon song the other night...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIjeUIeSKgg

I love when Aretha sits down at the piano.

If I were Rick Rubin I'd beg Aretha to record a piano and vocal album.

Can someone please explain to me where the artistry is in One Trick Pony

I have to say, from the original post, Simon at his power-in-the-formula best is on display in "Late in the Evening" - who the fuck else could pull of "smoke myself a J" there? not Leonard Cohen, to be fair!

pull off

can't even fuckin type for shit any more, it sucks

whereas Simon specializes in breezy wasn't-this-always-just-sitting-right-there? melodies, enviably effortless feel

this is kinda what i was driving at i guess

how do i shot artistry

This was Simon's response to that Los Lobos interview:

This Los Lobos thing has come up before, so I wanted to talk to you direct. They said all this stuff to Songtalk magazine in the States, and I’ve replied to it all in an interview that hasn’t run yet, but its all there. There was a bad atmosphere at those sessions (with Los Lobos on Graceland) from the start; I don’t know what it is with them. The whole deal for them working on Graceland was all worked out beforehand between Los Lobos and Lenny Warnoker (Managing Director at Warners USA) and there were no complaints at the time. It was made clear from the outset that we didn’t have a song. There was no song. It was being written from scratch. I was – and still am – a fan of the band. What I really love is the accordion sound. So we started jamming in the rehearsal room and nothing was really coming together, and so I said do you have any ideas we can work on. What I wanted for the Graceland track was like a generic Los Lobos dikka-de-dikka guitar sound. And so we came up with something around a riff. They never once said that this guitar line is one of ours and we don’t want you to have it. So we worked on recording this track for about three days, which is a long time to work on one track. I had to teach David Hildegger how to sing this song! And then David Hildegger came up to me and said “we’re not happy with this track. We wanna do a ballad”. But I couldn’t have that. At that time it was the last track of the whole album – eventually we did one more – and I just said at this stage I don’t care whether the album comes out without Los Lobos on it. I was getting really tired of it – I don’t want to get into a public slanging match over this, but this thing keeps coming up.

“So we finished the recordings. And three months passed, and there was no mention of “joint writing”. The album came out and we heard nothing. Then six months passed and Graceland had become a hit and the first thing I heard about the problem was when my manager got a lawyer’s letter. I was shocked. They sent this thing to my manager, not me. If there was a problem they could have contacted me direct, they’ve got my home number, we talked a lot. If you ask me it was a lawyer’s idea. You know, “the records a hit, and there’s $100,000 in it”. They had nine months from the recordings to talk to me about all this, but I heard nothing. And its still not sorted out because they still keep bringing it up – I heard they’d done this interview for you. I don’t want to get into a public slanging match with them, because I really like their music.”

i always hate it when ppl have to bag on someone who is awesome do defend someone else who is awesome.

as said by others, never really occured to me to compare cohen and simon tbh

i mean simon's strength isnt in the words-qua-words, though he's obviously got a gift for them, its the performance; i mean if you put leonard cohens words written down next to paul simons words written down cohen probably comes across as the stronger poet. but the difference between a song like story of isaac and a song like graceland--to me--is that cohen is, like, singing a poem over some guitar--if i'm being charitable i can say that at least he's making an attempt to create an engagement between the content & sound of the lyrics and the action of the music--but in "graceland" all these things exist together, playing off one another, changing the force and meaning of each component. and yet it comes across as totally seamless, as though it's off the top of simon's head.

i actually think you sort of secretly acknowledge this when you talk about the things that simon is good at. i dont know, i guess i am not really doing a "whole career" thing here, though lets not forget that simon was in his 20s throughout the S&G years and cohen didnt move to NYC till he was in his 30s. also its like "hi leonard could you write about something besides god for, like, once. no, besides sex too."

Simon and Byrne would be the more obvious comparison

i think only insulting thing anyone said about leonard cohen on this thread is when i called him "boring old leonard cohen." which i didnt even mean!

you called him stupid

The way Simon and Los Lobos remember the events is close enough that I still side with Simon if forced to pick one.

i am just surprised that everyone took me so seriously. i guess this is the first ILM thread i have engaged with in a while. sorry guys, leonard cohen rules.

i didn't take you srsly, srsly

David Hildegger

max to me this is just fun is all! I was weirded out when you were like comin politics-thread style, the dialectic fire of music discussion is a blast to me, I want more ppl comin all PAUL SIMON OWNS style that is fun imo and is an opportunity to really explore my thoughts about both more. anyway what I was gonna say:

i actually think you sort of secretly acknowledge this when you talk about the things that simon is good at.

no secret at all! you said initially

also simon is a better lyricist than stupid ol leonard cohen

which you then amended w/ there are very few people who can write words to music (and perform them) better than paul simon can which is true, but Simon's stuff ventures into it-works-best-if-you-hear-it territory - which - I lean both ways tbh, sometimes I think that's where the real deal is, where it's only truly great if it only works in that one moment when the words are at play in the air...because that's the original nature of the art, heard-not-read, for people who listen not people who're reading...and then other times I'm like, no that's bullshit, truly great lyricists work on paper and in-vivo and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, you can rip it free from its context and it's still tuff as fuck. And while Simon seems to understand song formalism better, there's no question that metrically Cohen runs him ragged - Cohen's actual-poetry gift is just like whoa, his "numbers" in the old sense are just godlike

haha i wrote the bit about writing words to music to make it clear that by "lyricist" i meant something different than "word arranger"

yeah i think max yr right tho,

i see cohen as a poet first, whereas simon is master of american pop songwriting and fundamentally to me a MUSICIAN...cohen is essentially a non-musician who, by way of having such an incredibly amazing sense of aesthetics (and a simple, but really canny way with melody) was able to put himself in situations where his words and the musical setting came together to form something really special..and really singular IMO...

but i mean if you're talking like who is the most talented musically, there's no question...simon can write so much broader in terms of idiom and obv whether it was folk or orchestral pop or ersatz african or 70s FM rock or whatever it was, he knows how to mix with it and is good enough a musician and songwriter and performer to to it.

then other times I'm like, no that's bullshit, truly great lyricists work on paper and in-vivo and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, you can rip it free from its context and it's still tuff as fuck.

That's the thing: I have no interest in ripping lyrics free from their original context.

David Hildegger

that said, i think simon was at his best when he had a great collaborative partner like art garfunkel or chevy chase

.cohen is essentially a non-musician who, by way of having such an incredibly amazing sense of aesthetics (and a simple, but really canny way with melody) was able to put himself in situations where his words and the musical setting came together to form something really special.

btw this is how I regard Robert Forster and Bowie too.

btw i agree that "50 ways to leave yr lover" is really corny but if you ever wanted a version that just had that mellow-as-hell rainy-day opening and those sick steve gadd drums here it is:

http://soundcloud.com/aordisco/50-ways-to-leave-your-lover-pollyns-re-edit-remix-paul-simon

haha i wrote the bit about writing words to music to make it clear that by "lyricist" i meant something different than "word arranger"

well, but cohen's stuff are lyrics. because poetry is actually just song lyrics written down - which cohen really seems to get, this seems like a big part of what he's doing. it's not just poetry set to music; it takes flight in music; but it survives better on paper than simon's imo. a somewhat meaningless distinction - ghostface is a genius but I'm not about to sit down and read "nutmeg," it has to be heard to be grasped - and cohen also writes poetry; it's quite different from his lyrics. it's just that simon's tradition is this specifically American words-and-melody thing and cohen's is really more medieval-troubadour stuff.

(this btw is where we venture very deeply into my-own-personal-what-I-value stuff - I've always preferred stuff that can be presented either way & still slay, despite my antipathy toward printing lyrics on a sleeve)

i think asking that words be able to be received in two different contexts is kind of placing demands on the art that it doesnt deserve

tbf i dont think he's placing demands, just pointing out that cohen's stuff endures the contextual shift and simon's basically doesn't

bowie is probably a much better comparison than cohen not that i know much about cohen.

i like simon more than bowie though like a lot more

yeah i thought the bowie comparison was p apt

i think asking that words be able to be received in two different contexts is kind of placing demands on the art that it doesnt deserve

yeah I mean I vacillate deeply on this stuff. me on tuesday will tell me on sunday that sunday me was full of shit. aerosmith albums don't have lyric sheets even though it would probably help our cause a lot but I don't care, because I believe strongly that the place to experience the lyrics is in the song: that's where they live. but when we're talking about how good they are, then I feel like it's fair to start putting some heavy demands on them, testing them. "suzanne" is a mellow jam to hear and float along to, you don't have to go all deep w/it -- but look at it on paper -- damn -- still good -- you know? but as I say, I mean, I will be debating w/myself about this issue on the day they lower me into the ground and some asshole plays "me & julio" at the funeral & laffs because I am too dead to shake my fist

Paul Simon is so much a better lyricist than Bowie it's not even funny, even though I'd rather listen to Bowie any day of the week

what I omitted from my original Bowie post is that obviously so much else matters while listening to Bowie: presentation for one.

Bowie is best appreciated when young.

would 'good lyrics' even fit bowie's aesthetic?

no!

just imagining the memorial service, all solemn readings of 'dude looks like a lady'

good lyrics matter for Bowie insofar as they advance the game he's playing on that particular album

Don't know if it's mentioned upthread, but it's BS that Simon "just discovered" any sort of global music pre-Graceland. I mean, the very first song on his very first album was a reggae song recorded in Jamaica with Jimmy Cliff's band. That's pre-Catch a Fire, for sure, and about as early as non-Jamaican reggae gets. And plenty of his other records are peppered with various Latin and nu-Yorican rhythms. He found inspiration where he found it.

yep

i am just surprised that everyone took me so seriously. i guess this is the first ILM thread i have engaged with in a while. sorry guys, leonard cohen rules.

I was really hoping you were being serious!

Also, Simon is def. "exploring" African music on "Graceland." That he links zydeco back to African jive, let alone by way of Los Lobos' Mexico, or implicitly connects the Ladysmith a cappella stuff to the doo wop of his youth shows he's very aware of the ongoing African cultural diaspora and how far its music has reached. There's a quote from the Classic Albums series from guitarist Ray Phiri: "We were influenced by American music. American music was for us … it was like sharing information. So it was a two-way traffic. We used Paul as much as Paul used us.”

there was no mention of “joint writing”.

That's a helluva rationalization. "Hey, Los Lobos didn't tell me they wrote that music, so I just assumed I did!"

Also, that song has probably the worst drum sound of the 80s.

that said, i think simon was at his best when he had a great collaborative partner like art garfunkel or chevy chase

― om nom nom nnamdi asomugha (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, August 7, 2011 3:00 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol

Don't forget Steve Martin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_002KDRoKM

lmao that video is incredible

I love Paul Simon and can't imagine wanting to put him down.

It's petty that people squabbled over some old song that was OK.

The only thing that does put me off PS is that he sings quite a lot about god and religiosity. These are not my kind of thing.

But I suppose or imagine that believing in those things makes PS feel happier.

I love 2004.

i like steve martin's punchy hand gesture to accompany "proust"

do you like "the obvious child," pf?

obviously

that song is pretty jesusy!

The only thing that does put me off PS is that he sings quite a lot about god and religiosity. These are not my kind of thing.

i can guess which you'd prefer between paul simon and leonard cohen then

pinefox, do you like R&B or gospel?

i can guess which you'd prefer between paul simon and leonard cohen then

haha i was thinking!!!

do you guys think the speaker of "still crazy after all these years" killed his ex-girlfriend? i sort of do.

Horseshoe, I love 'the obvious child'.

I don't listen to Leonard Cohen. I've never owned any of his work.

I like R&B in a general way, as on the Paul Jones radio programme. I don't really know gospel except in the distant way that anyone does, and on RATTLE & HUM.

Horsehoe, I don't know 'still crazy' well enough to say.

I don't really know gospel except in the distant way that anyone does, and on RATTLE & HUM.

haha good answer

he says, "i fear i'll do some damage one fine day," but there are so many ellipses in that song, like

I met my old lover
On the street last night
She seemed so glad to see me
I just smiled
And we talked about some old times
And we drank ourselves some beers
Still crazy after all these years

and it's like, what happened between the beers and the crazy?

i love the god bothering stuff

hat happened between the beers and the crazy?

^^^^ good lyric

* what

i love the god bothering stuff

― ℗⎣▲✘ (ico), Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:34 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

yeah it's there from the beginning, that yearning for transcendental experience or whatever

angels in the architecture, spinning in infinity, sweet angels sing "hallelujah"

And I will lay my burden down
Rest my head upon that shore
And when I wear that starry crown
I won't be wanting anymore

starry is such a pretty word

I believe
I BELIEVE
in the Kingdom Come
IN THE KINGDOM COME
Then all the colours
ALLLL THE COLOURS
will bleed into one
BLEEEEED INTO O--O-OONE

You broke the bonds
BROKE THE BONDS
And you loosed the chains
LOOSED THE CHAINS
Carried the cross
CARRIED THE CROSS
of my shame
OF MY SHAME
you know I believe it.

I BELIEVE IT!

You know, I do

The god talk gets annoying on the new one.

ok Bono lyrics do not even belong on the same board as paul simon lyrics

like there should be a separate board for bono lyrics and the board should be called "i love sucking ass"

one time i read a bono quote where he said it was a pleasure to listen to michael jackson as long as you ignored the lyrics, and i was like, that's pretty rich coming from you, bono.

I mainly just posted that last one to tempt DJP

Wtf you atheists and "god talk" as if mentions of god make someone jerry falwell

^^

i will take all of your silence as confirmation of my theory that "still crazy after all these years" is about a murderer.

No one but pinefox said that.

I wrote in my review a couple of months ago that Simon doesn't really illuminate some tired religious tropes. I wish he'd gone Al Green in his old age.

still crazy after all these years is abt how garfunkel reads so many books and murdering him

people caring about lyrics too much itt

what are the names of the songs in Paul Simon's album Graceland?

― anne alison, Monday, February 16, 2004

You gotta fill out a form first.

and stick it up your ass

still crazy after all these years is abt how garfunkel reads so many books and murdering him
--ice cr?m

I don't believe Alamac is actually sorry.

in answer to the thread title in particular, i generally don't feel like paul simon is overrated - it seems to me that people have a very mixed reception of him

i think what i love best about paul simon is his phrasing, how he works his voice, lyrics and guitar together so niftily and so beautifully, i adore the sweetness of it. every element is elevated.

and he enunciates like nobody's business.

otm he is tremendous at delivering complex lines

tbh i just think "graceland" is maybe the best song anyone's ever written

i love the way the steady beat of the bass and drums sound like car wheels on the highway and the way all the lyrics sound like the kind of things you say when you are being overfriendly to people you meet at gas stations at convenience stores

the sort of cheerfully mournful "she comes back to tell me shes gone" and the over-indignant "as if i didnt know that/as if i didnt know my own bed" and then that gorgeous pause that drifts off into the heartbreaking "as if id never noticed the way she brushed her hair from her forehead"

if someone said those things to me at a gas station i'd be a little overwhelmed

i'd be intrigued but alert.

haha i dont know have you ever taken a big trip after a life change? i ended up being very over-share-y with strangers, and all did was graduate from college, not divorce anyone

yes i have and i probably did that, but not as prettily as paul simon

i made myself a paul simon playlist and went for a walk listening to it btw ty this thread

i wonder if my neighbours mind that i've sung 'the mississippi delta was shining like a national guitar' quite loudly about forty times in the past hour.

i've noticed recently that every time i hear paul simon i think approvingly of horseshoe, so far she has commandeered paul simon and mark ruffalo.

aw! people who routinely post in paul simon threads are some of my favorite ilxors.

not you, Alamac

s/t solo debut is a stone-cold classic. I like Graceland OK, but nothing has ever come even moderately close to that first record imo.

when i was 13 i wanted to marry paul simon but i got snapped up before we ever had a chance to meet.

By Jerry Lee Lewis?

tsk.

too bad, estela, b/c i'd venture to guess he's been looking for a way out of the whole Edie Brickell thing for some time now.

is she a wrong'un.

nah, actually I heard she's a pretty nice lady.

Think a friend of Mrs. Redd's is a friend of hers but I never really heard too much about it.

you could give us a report about what it is that she is.

one of my college friends grew up in a house that was somehow adjacent to a summer home of theirs (LI I believe). Apparently they are totally folks that you wouldn't mind having as neighbors & who might even offer you the occasional porchside beverage from time to time!

As you as you didn't get overly familiar and chatty whilst drinking that beverage.

Something So Right is my Simon jam

xpost

― Neanderthal, Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:26 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark

yes this is a good one!

i just tried listening to graceland but was so embarrassed about it when my boyfriend walked in the room that i had to turn it off

alsurmac

paul simon: giving people something to be embarrassed about before radiohead

well, my friend was a kid at the time, so I think it was more of an occasional 'lets treat the neighborhood scamps to fresh pitcher of lemonade' than anything that could have led to the leering and fawning of the rabble.

several xps to James

lol at surm acting like Graceland = a real life version of Aldous Snow's "African Child"

haha i dont know have you ever taken a big trip after a life change? i ended up being very over-share-y with strangers, and all did was graduate from college, not divorce anyone

otm this is totally a thing

lol surm

i just tried listening to graceland but was so embarrassed about it when my boyfriend walked in the room that i had to turn it off

this is just terrible

this thread title is slowly driving me insane btw

it's really the m@rris$a m@rchant-y condescending "I'm sorry" that puts it over the top

haha i dont know have you ever taken a big trip after a life change? i ended up being very over-share-y with strangers, and all did was graduate from college, not divorce anyone

otm this is totally a thing
― g++ (gbx), Sunday, August 7, 2011 9:11 PM (4 minutes ago)

. . . with canadian trucker ladies

the thread title should be changed to hello sb my old friend.

hush

the thread title should be changed to hello sb my old friend.

― estela, Sunday, August 7, 2011 9:18 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

otm

max talking about having a 'life change' made me thought he was menopausal for a sec

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ApuDOB0eMd0/SQIdqPyREBI/AAAAAAAAAZo/E15mT-eb7Z8/s320/4653_elderly_menopause_woman_having_a_hot_flash.jpg

it's really the m@rris$a m@rchant-y condescending "I'm sorry" that puts it over the top

still think it sounds like the kinda challoping you'd hear from an idiot teenager with a hand on her hip holding forth next to her locker

or like my mom getting defensive about not liking rap music or w/e

i made myself a paul simon playlist and went for a walk listening to it btw ty this thread

― horseshoe, Sunday, August 7, 2011 8:34 PM (55 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

link?

spotify me

We're so sorry, Uncle Alamac

i just tried listening to graceland but was so embarrassed about it when my boyfriend walked in the room that i had to turn it off

― surm, Sunday, August 7, 2011 9:07 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i admit for a while graceland was considered a guilty pleasure to me, but ive liked this album since i was ten y/o so weve been through a lot together

that might also be why I'm kinda w/e about aeros colonialist misgivings---I was jamming this as a kid, what is a colonialism anyway n/m who cares

personally, I was much more concerned about the fact that Chevy Chase was in the video

which was awesome, naturally

silver lining

I was jamming this as a kid, what is a colonialism anyway n/m who cares

― g++ (gbx), Sunday, August 7, 2011 9:37 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha i actually vaguely recall said lefty protestations at the time of release, then later i stared posting to ilx

I don't like the idea that people who aren't adolescents make records. Adolescents make the best records. Except for Paul Simon. Except for Graceland. He's hit a new plateau there, but he's writing to his own age group. Graceland is something new. That song to his son is just as good as "Blue Suede Shoes": "Before you were born dude when life was great." That's just as good as "Blue Suede Shoes," and that is a new dimension.

Joe Strummer interviewed by Richard Cromelin for the Los Angeles Times on January 31, 1988[8]

hahah!

And when I wear that starry crown
I won't be wanting anymore

theres the part in 'slip slidin' away' where he sings of a man who wore his passion for his woman as a thorny crown that i really love! but i think that whole song is really great

lol @ joe strummer too btw

can i just list the songs on my playlist?

late in the evening
dazzling blue
you can call me al
peace like a river
old
something so right
the obvious child
hearts and bones
american tune
paranoia blues
slip slidin' away
that was your mother
my little town
congratulations
gone at last
so beautiful or so what
think too much (b)

nb: it is hard when listening to a song off the self-titled or graceland not to want to listen to the whole album.

joe strummer otm. paul simon songs about his kids are the best.

slip slidin' away is a perfect song

sometimes i sing st judy's comet to my little dog when he's sleepy.

aw!

trust you to like that.

haha i have been known to *get something in my eye* when that song comes on

i saw paul simon and edie brickell once, not sure if they were married yet but i remember thinking they are very well matched height-wise

i once saw paul simon rescue a special needs child who had fallen down a well--he brushed it off and said, "all in a day's work. does anybody here play the pan flute?"

paul simon invented ilx in "the dangling conversation"

oh man I'll praise Simon when he's good but I hate me some "Slip Slidin Away"

:(

think too much (b) can't believe you picked b over a. when i was seventeen, me and the girls from st. augustine, up in the mezzanine, thinkin bout god yeah

maybe i think too much

haha i'm sorry i love them both!

i think he was twelve going on thirteen, though. not seventeen.

the sort of cheerfully mournful "she comes back to tell me shes gone" and the over-indignant "as if i didnt know that/as if i didnt know my own bed" and then that gorgeous pause that drifts off into the heartbreaking "as if id never noticed the way she brushed her hair from her forehead"

― max, Monday, 8 August 2011 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
if someone said those things to me at a gas station i'd be a little overwhelmed

― horseshoe, Monday, 8 August 2011 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
i'd be intrigued but alert.

― estela, Monday, 8 August 2011

this was good

some good things in this ill-titled thread

I didn't know Horseshoe was a woman till a minute ago

Wow, this thread is still going strong. Guess I hit a nerve. Sorry if some were offended. We all have our preferences.

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Just full of apologies.

some ppl's preferences are appalling, though, is the thing

Alamac how you gon create a thread then scurry away while it explodes

oh man I'll praise Simon when he's good but I hate me some "Slip Slidin Away"

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, August 8, 2011 12:31 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark

whoa what

Not scurrying away, just working, sleeping, etc.

I didn't know Horseshoe was a woman till a minute ago

― the pinefox, Monday, August 8, 2011 9:24 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

whoa me too

thats some sixth sense shit huh

love slip slidin away

*nears destination*

Reminds me, gotta go over to that Jazz album poll and campaign for Destination... Out!

no offense john but people who hate slip slidin away are just not worth my time *shuts door on friendship*

I'll wear my passion for our lost love like a thorny crown, max

seriously if I wanted that kinda prematurely world-weary hip-you-to-my-wisdom shit I'd listen to Jewel

peace like a river gumboots hearts and bones spirit voices born at the right time father and daughter diamonds on the souls of her shoes papa hobo me and julio down by the schoolyard think too much late in the evening under african skies how the heart approaches what it yearns graceland run that body down

i just made it through about 20 seconds of slip sliding away. it sounds like a children's song.

lol surm if anyone else was posting this stuff i would be hating on them but i am srsly just loving you more

prematurely world-weary

He was 36 when the song came out -- what is the age when the cosmic egg-timer dings and it's ok to be world weary?

I'm 36 and ILM weary.

xxp phew ok good, i was a little worried

well there's nothing wrong with a children's song! "slip sliding"'s music is pleasant enough. the lyric is the kinda thing that if it weren't beloved Paul S everybody'd be "thanks dad for the preachy information, can't make it out to the house this weekend but I'll be sure to write" about

yeah i'm not a huge fan of slip sliding away either

He was 36 when the song came out -- what is the age when the cosmic egg-timer dings and it's ok to be world weary?

when you've retired from writing pop songs

for me hearts and bones is his number one best song, i also love born at the right time and peace like a river

It's not a favorite but it's on my short list of Good Songs Recorded for Compilations. Plus, I love that part after the chorus where he sticks in a couple of faster acoustic strums.

sometimes i listen to hearts and bones and i am amazed

c'mon aero, dude was about 23 or 24 when he wrote "Richard Cory," you know well that most lyricists hit their stride mid-30s.

also i love those strums

(xp)
Yes, the list of Not So Good Songs Recorded for Compilations is a lot longer.

He was 36 when the song came out -- what is the age when the cosmic egg-timer dings and it's ok to be world weary?

― L.P. Hovercraft (WmC), Monday, August 8, 2011 10:57 AM (1 minute ago)]

most of the S&G stuff, esp early, is way too coffeehouse earnest

sometimes i listen to hearts and bones and i am amazed

― ℗⎣▲✘ (ico), Monday, August 8, 2011 10:00 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

<3 u

c'mon aero, dude was about 23 or 24 when he wrote "Richard Cory," you know well that most lyricists hit their stride mid-30s.

― satan club sandwich (Dr Morbius), Monday, August 8, 2011 11:01 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is what im saying--leonard cohen didnt start singing till he was in his mid 30s

Suggest Ban Permalink

peace like a river gumboots hearts and bones spirit voices born at the right time father and daughter diamonds on the souls of her shoes papa hobo me and julio down by the schoolyard think too much late in the evening under african skies how the heart approaches what it yearns graceland run that body down

― ℗⎣▲✘ (ico), Monday, August 8, 2011 10:54 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark

^^

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lfZqH9J07J0/TNnH2cicGKI/AAAAAAAAATc/yGYgY9SRnsc/s1600/royal-tenenbaums-560.jpg
I'm talking about taking it out and chopping it up

sheesh, btwn some of the opinions expressed on this thread, the OUTRAGE over the john maus non-controversy, and someone saying that Caroline No's lyrics are misogynistic, and someone else saying that Don't Worry Baby is mostly about some guy and his car i have never been smdh so much reading ilm as i have in the past couple of days

when people are praising the lyrics to "That Was Your Mother" upthread (incl Joe Strummer, I guess)... are they agreeing with the sentiments expressed? Cuz narrator of that song seems like a total asshole to me.

I never identify songs with the singer but that's me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsQtndswJbc

I never identify songs with the singer but that's me.

yeah I don't either, Joe Strummer and other people referring to Paul's "songs about his kids" however....

The walrus was Paul Simon.

Simonon?

not to throw another log on the bonofire here but if simon wanted to be taken more seriously maybe he should've figured out a way to lean into a topic w/ some fury, that's what separates him from dylan/cohen/young etc imo

The intelligence and melodic flair with which he's approached said topics is quite enough – and furious enough.

and by fury I don't mean yelling into the microphone, sometimes a quiet song can be smoke signals from a fire in its belly

also I'm reacting to simon's own eval of his career as second-best to dylan

Alfred otm.

paul simon is fine for what he is, drum intro to 50 ways is all time and much better than a novelty song deserves

'how can you live in the North-East'?

I don't know 'slip sliding away'

PS does seem to relate a bit to Wes Anderson
that's relatively OK by me

500 new answers on paul simon! good god.

I love how refreshingly un-hammy and free of drama Paul Simon is.

i don't think "that was your mother" is directly autobiographical, no (don't think paul simon used to be a traveling salesman, for example) but i don't think the sentiment of the song is that jerky. it's a little tongue-in-cheek!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHRBLvSq3qE

50 ways is not a novelty song!!

get a new steez deej, I got 50 ways to troll yr thread

I love the scene in one trick pony where he opens for the b-52s, wish it was on youtube but you have to settle for lou reed as his producer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDRjsKcFC9g

Youre outta your head, ed

get a new steez, jeez

ok here it is, love simon's look @ 11:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lf7FQfE0mw

and yeah that's mare winningham

One Trick Pony is a great movie, so many priceless moments

how did i reveal i was a woman itt?

Lou Reed's New Yawk accent vs Paul Simon's.

'how can you live in the North-East'?

I don't know 'slip sliding away'

PS does seem to relate a bit to Wes Anderson
that's relatively OK by me
--the pinefox

i've noticed recently that every time i hear paul simon i think approvingly of horseshoe, so far she has commandeered paul simon and mark ruffalo.

― estela, Monday, August 8, 2011 12:36 AM (16 hours ago)

???

i paid particular attn to this post

haha okay

You said you didn't like crepey gas station chatups, horseshoe.

its true guys love those

such a giveaway

slip slidin' away does sound like a children's song. a lot of paul simon does.

xp ha

itt i reveal i am a child

I like crepes wherever I can get them

peace like a river gumboots hearts and bones spirit voices born at the right time father and daughter diamonds on the souls of her shoes papa hobo me and julio down by the schoolyard think too much late in the evening under african skies how the heart approaches what it yearns graceland run that body down

― ℗⎣▲✘ (ico), Monday, August 8, 2011 10:54 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

<3

papa hobo is a good one

Just trying to reverse engineer teh mind of the pinefox

I didn't think the gas station exchange proved anything about Horseshoe

I'm just going on someone calling him / her 'her'

maybe they were wrong and Horsehoe is not female at all.

Yes, I know that Royal Ts scene, it makes the point.

Did PS and Lou Reed really appear in a film together?

i am female, pinefox!

I like that idea, about engineering, thanks

I remember Horseshoe from an ILB thread about a very overrated book which he / she was very keen on -- he / she was quite friendly, respectful and positive about things

good schtick

[xp: change he / she to he]

haha you jerk i still love that book!

a film Simon wrote and starred in, pinefox

also features Rip Torn as Simon's manager, Tiny Tim in a suit made out of newspaper comic strips, the B-52s, and Steve Gadd

I mean, change he / she to she

I'm not surprised you still like that very disappointing book.

I have heard of that film and always heard it was a surprise flop or something -- but it's now sounding like vital viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyRunLCpoT4

drum intro to 50 ways is all time and much better than a novelty song deserves

well yeah that's Steve Gadd isn't it? that dude's a fucking monster

'He's been playing us an exciting new song'

this film looks classic !! one of the great pop films!?

can't believe steve gadd let paul simon colonialize him

it wasn't surprising that one trick pony was a flop - it's all inside baseball - but def required
viewing for an ILMer

(xp)
You're confusing him with Jim Gordon

Paul Simon is very ugly in this.

It's the principal source of his revenue

listening to still crazy for the first time as a result of this thread.

btw

omg yay tell me if you think he is a murderer in that song!

on the "jury of my peers" basis? never got that vibe

he says, "i fear i'll do some damage one fine day," but there are so many ellipses in that song, like

I met my old lover
On the street last night
She seemed so glad to see me
I just smiled
And we talked about some old times
And we drank ourselves some beers
Still crazy after all these years

and it's like, what happened between the beers and the crazy?

― horseshoe, Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

It's ironic, thinking that drinking a few beers is "crazy" behavior?

there's clearly something left out between drinking the beers and the refrain. that whole song is so menacing. in a quiet way.

yes I have always interpreted Still Crazy... to be about someone genuinely crazy/homicidal

Now I sit by my window
And I watch the cars
I fear I'll do some damage
One fine day
But I would not be convicted
By a jury of my peers
Still crazy after all these years

"sit by my window and I watch the cars/fear I'll do some damage one fine day" = sniper talk

totally

Again, you people are thinking of Jim Gordon

"he was a quiet sortof guy, kept to himself mostly"

i'm not the kind of man / who tends to socialize

so at best, he's a potential murderer

lol this chick on gone at last just comes out of nowhere!

but i think he killed his ex-girlfriend in the first verse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjtOa8d_BHU

i haven't made up my mind on paul simon and probably never will.

he's so good and a bunch of what he's written really moves me, but he's also (or even simultaneously) a perfect exemplar of things about that generation of people that drives me up a fucking wall

You guys are nuts, that song is the dream of a milquetoast who wishes he had the guts to really go off on the world but knows he never will.

i am just guessing at what those things are, but if i'm right i think they're inseparable from what's good about his songs.

like "the mississippi delta was shining like a national guitar" is just... awful

yes a "national guitar", like, the blues, i get it. also you can't see the 'delta' as a thing, can you? it's about as big as connecticut. and the "cradle of the civil war"? that's... south carolina. virginia maybe, in another sense. every other thing he says i feel like saying, "well, maybe, but..."

he has a way of writing things that have the form of being moving and insightful but aren't

i really enjoy his first solo album from 1965. it gives you a good idea of what life without Art might have been like.

oh okay. aero agrees with you >:[

xp

i dunno p sure you can see the delta as a thing

like from a plane

You guys are nuts, that song is the dream of a milquetoast who wishes he had the guts to really go off on the world but knows he never will.
--L.P. Hovercraft (WmC)

i buy that interp, too, it's just less fun

yeah but evan hes driving in that song, remember, he keeps harassing people at gas stations

fyi 2 50 ways/steve gadd fans:

btw i agree that "50 ways to leave yr lover" is really corny but if you ever wanted a version that just had that mellow-as-hell rainy-day opening and those sick steve gadd drums here it is:

http://soundcloud.com/aordisco/50-ways-to-leave-your-lover-pollyns-re-edit-remix-paul-simon

― max, Sunday, August 7, 2011 3:00 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

also you can't see the 'delta' as a thing, can you?

You can. I can, at least. I don't like the simile in that line, but don't have a problem with the subject.

and yeah delta/nat'l guitar = the blues is kinda facile but....nat'l guitars are shiny and so is water. if anything, i'd say he has a talent (if you want to call it that) for taking not-very-deep lyrics and sublimating them with melody

i mean i love cortez the killer but it is possibly the most embarrassing song every written if you take even a second to actually pay close attention to the words

and i agree with wmc---i actually do conceive of the delta as a thing as much as a region or w/e

i buy that interp, too, it's just less fun

― horseshoe, Monday, August 8, 2011 12:41 PM (1 minute ago)

I don't want the song to be fun, it's a total life-wasted tragedy! If you stripped out the lyrics and just listened to the music, would you think "I wonder how the lyrics of 'Palisades Park' would fit here..." It's a huge bummer!

okay i always thought national guitar was an abstract image and not an actual thing. this changes things.

I don't want the song to be fun, it's a total life-wasted tragedy! If you stripped out the lyrics and just listened to the music, would you think "I wonder how the lyrics of 'Palisades Park' would fit here..." It's a huge bummer!

― L.P. Hovercraft (WmC), Monday, August 8, 2011 1:45 PM (25 seconds ago) Bookmark

omg i didn't mean the song was fun i meant imagining what's happening in the ellipses is fun.

i love "red rubber ball"

that's a great edit too, max

like "the mississippi delta was shining like a national guitar" is just... awful

I have always loved this line, personally

ok, my bad --

shit, now I'm going to try to imagine "Palisades Park" with this melody...what have I done?

that's a great edit too, max

― 5ish finkel (goole), Monday, August 8, 2011 1:47 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah i like the song way more without goofy ol rhymin simon

Rock HyraxHardy still on the money re: "Still Crazy."

ok i've been googling for this for a bit and can't find anything -- does anyone remember this pbs special (series?) about two fortyish dudes who get in an old convertible and drive across america, maybe on rt 66?

okay i always thought national guitar was an abstract image and not an actual thing. this changes things.

― ℗⎣▲✘ (ico), Monday, August 8, 2011 1:45 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark

hahaha i thought this for the longest time and still sometimes choose to just go w/it

if I sang "The Paul Simon ILM thread is shining like national dog shit" would it still be an abtract image

no because you've posted a lot of pics on WDYLL threads so I can visualize you singing

He should have said "shining like a dobro"

it's too late, I totally ruined the joke

Still don't get hating on the words in "50 ways" that stuff is totally fun

Also really good drums on "oh marion"

deej otm

hop on the bus, gus you don't need to dicuss muuuuuuuuch

xp

people hate sounds i guess

May I just add a point of interest as the instigator of this thread?

Despite my repulsion with Paul Simon's solo career, "Still Crazy After All These Years" was the first album I ever owned. I was 12 and it was $9.99. I was lured to the purchase after wearing out my '45 of "Kodachrome." Little did I know what was to await me on that large piece of vinyl.

for reasons i cannot explain
we all will obtain
much hard one

this thread is the reason why i'm getting into paul simon

Hope you're proud of yourself, Alamac.

Neither proud nor disgusted. Just havin' a discussion, Hovercraft.

I briefly considered buying a copy of Greatest Hits Etc today and thought of this thread, I passed though - already have two good LPs (the S/T and Still Crazy). He just seems more like an album artist to me.

At the national ILX karaoke, I will perform "America"

The Mississippi Delta
was shining like a national ILX karaoke

"well, but cohen's stuff are lyrics. because poetry is actually just song lyrics written down - which cohen really seems to get, this seems like a big part of what he's doing. it's not just poetry set to music; it takes flight in music; but it survives better on paper than simon's imo"

?!?
Everybody knows the plague is coming, but everybody knows the best lyric ever penned is "Everything you think and everything you feel is alright alright alright alright alright" or something similar, something that doesn't read well on the page but is completely The Best when sung. The music is the end, not the crib sheets. Have you ever heard Shakespeare set to song? Or Auden? Or Yeats? It is THE WORST. Leonard Cohen's greatest contribution to this world-- and it is substantial-- is his book of collected "lyrics", which read so well and fall so flat once sung.

You like "Story Of Isaac"? So do I; but it is the rarest example of Cohen bending a lyric to a melody, something he's failed to do on, say, "Hey, that's no way..." "Susanne" "So Long Marianne" "The Future" "Tower of song" "Everybody Knows" "Bird on a wire" "Ain't no cure for love" "Don't go home with..." "Sisters of mercy" "Coming back to you" "Famous blue raincoat" and seriously the man is, to me, just a trumped up Robert Ashley, and I love him, and I love Robert Ashley, but you cannot talk criticize a magician/dope like Paul Simon because his lyrics don't stack up to Cohen's poetry.

If we're talking about music, and I think we are, I'd say without hesitation that there are 10+ Paul Simon songs that *murder* the best L. Cohen song in its bed, without a fight; my champion is "I know what I know", fwiw.

I usually come in second to (to Dylan), and I don't like coming in second. ...One of my deficiencies is my voice sounds sincere. I've tried to sound ironic. I don't. I can't. Dylan, everything he sings has two meanings. He's telling you the truth and making fun of you at the same time. I sound sincere every time.

I like Simon, but this a dickish comment and I kind of disagree with it. I think his voice is pretty detached.

True!

simon is deeply ironic

yeah, it's not Dylan's irony that he can't match, it's Dylan's venom/anger

should he try?

No

Simon listens to himself and hears James Taylor

paul simon performed where i work a couple of years ago. i remember he was ultra-sensitive about a times piece that had been written about him at the time.

simon is deeply ironic

not really? on h&b and esp in the talking to strangers bit of graceland that max ref'd it's the emotional range of his voice that's so affecting. he's pretty good at "acting" in a way that Dylan isn't imo. he can muster anger and venom sure, but he can't match Simon for tenderness (for lack of a better word)

he is way too tender for me

most often i am moved by something that does not try too hard to be particularly tender

really? He's tender occasionally.

no tenderness beneath surm's honesty

should he try?

nah

this thread has made me love paul simon even more than i previously did btw

such a fan

compare Springsteen slap at home in "Born to Run" vs "My Little Town" (leavin' nothin' but the dead and dyin')

plax otm

NOTHIN' BUT THE DEAD AND DYIN' BACK IN MY LITTLE TOWN

that song hits a little close to home these days

Similar degrees of authorial distance there, right? I don't think either Simon or Springsteen actually hated their hometown.

My Little Town OK haven't heard that in 35 years. Awesome song. What the hell happened to him?

Still making good music?

I read some Playboy interview with Simon from the 1970s where he was asked who he most admired of current songwriters, and (as Bob Dylan and Randy Newman do) took a long, uncomfortable pause trying to some up with someone, and finally he says that likes Bob Seger. Which made me realize that "Little too call, could've used a few pounds" is a total Paul Simon song-opener, height aside.

(Jesus, I'm full of typos today.)

I have to fuckin raise that question myself when people ask me & I'm fuckin aching to big-up underrated songwriters but interviewers just do not ask questions like that any more, like, period

"when people ask me" = "when ppl interview me" I meant

I once heard a radio interview, with Peter Mulvey I think it was, where the interviewee answered questions and played his songs, but he also picked a song he most would like to have written, and they played a recording of it (it was S&G's "America)--really liked that they did that.

Hey, here is that interview--from 1984, it turns out.

I have a song on this new album called Train in the Distance. It's very factual about my life. What I discovered in writing recently is that facts, stated without color, are just potential energy. you don't know where they're going to go until you give them a direction. The song starts, "She was beautiful as Southern skies / The night he met her. She was married to someone." That's about Peggy, my first wife. And it's all true. Then it goes, "He was doggedly determined that he would get her/ He was old, he was young." That's me. I was, you know, pretending I was sophisticated. I wasn't . "From time to time, he'd tip his heart / But each time she withdrew." True, all true. All those are just facts. Then I add what is, I think, the artist's job : "Everybody loves the sound of a train in the distance / Everybody thinks it's true." That's not fact anymore. That's comment. I told a story, and then I used the metaphor.

And then I thought, I don't think people are going to understand what I mean when I say, "Everybody loves the sound of a train in the distance / Everybody thinks it's true. " And I don't want to be enigmatic. So I added : "What is the point of this story? What information pertains? / The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains." And what was my writer's point of view. That's we've survived by believing our life is going to get better. And I happened to use the train metaphor because I was sitting in a friend's house near a railway station, and I heard a train. And I said, "Oooh, that's nice." There's something about the sound of a train that's very romantic and nostalgic and hopeful. Anyway, I guess my point is that facts can be turned into art if one is artful enough.

I have to fuckin raise that question myself when people ask me & I'm fuckin aching to big-up underrated songwriters but interviewers just do not ask questions like that any more, like, period

gotta co-sign this, interviews are so fucking boring these days

great interview btw

that uh, Playboy one linked above

wow, I had to go away for a few days and I'm surprised to see all of the discussion that the thrown-off Cohen comment caused. But I think I can better clarify what I was getting at.

I think of Simon as coming from a Brill Building background, then moving into an interest in the folk revival, and his legacy sits kind of oddly between those two worlds. Post-Dylan, he clearly had ambitions to become Dylan's equal and I was using Cohen as an example of somebody who managed to build a somewhat underground career as a "serious" folk singer-songwriter in the Dylan mold. But Simon wrote all of these big catchy pop hits and beautiful sentimental ballads that make it difficult to separate his work from the world of Brill Building pop standards.

So which of his contemporaries would you compare him to? Neil Diamond and Billy Joel? Commercially, that makes sense, but his work seems a little more sophisticated, so in that context he would seem underrated. Nillson, Newman, Fred Neil, Van Dyke Parks? They all have had a touch of the overlooked-genius cred that Simon doesn't get, so compared to them he's underrated in a sense as well. James Taylor, Jackson Browne type singer-songwriters? They're a later generation, plus Simon towers over them imo. I don't see how he could be overrated compared to them.

And yeah, I realize the OP was a dumb troll thread, but I think it would be tough to seriously argue that Simon is overrated. Personally I don't get the love for most of the solo stuff beyond the hits, but it doesn't really seem that wildly overrated. Some people with really bad taste inexplicably dig it (joeking Simonites. put down your pitchforks) but pitchfork only ranked Graceland the 85th best album of the '80s so, you know.

He seems like one of those artists who's rated just exactly where he belongs.

I assure you, I am not a troll ... .

Even non-trolls can start troll threads. Any thread called "I'm sorry but (___________) is so overrated" is a troll thread, imo.

So Alamac, which of his contemporaries working in a similar vein do you think are underrated compared to Simon?

i assure you, i am not a troll... i just happen to live under a bridge over troubled waters.

I'm a mere collection of hearts and bones.

lol, estela, A++

alamac is a man of honor, of that i am certain

Please define troll thread, Hovercraft.

hell no, I'm busy reading the rest of the internet

Well wheelie king, that is a difficult question, I would certainly say that Leonard Cohen deserves more kudos and accolades than he got. Jorma Kaukonen as well. But I would also say that James Taylor is VASTLY overrated...

Leonard Cohen deserves more kudos and accolades than he got

Since he began touring again in 2008, I would say Cohen has received more ecstatic reviews and plaudits than just about any other artist from his era.

Well, ban this, hindsight is 20/20. But was he revered at the time of his heyday? I think not.

in Europe he's always been revered

Well, ban this, hindsight is 20/20. But was he revered at the time of his heyday? I think not.

Even if this weren't true, who cares?

Cohen's never been commercially successful, but he's ALWAYS been revered

a catch-all: I don't, but someone asked.

i kinda remember cohen being a bit of a punchline for rock critics in the early 80s because his style of folk was very unfashionable and "dated" in that period but by the end of the decade he was back to being revered

you're right but that was largely because he reinvented himself with I'm Your Man, which was the most direct and commercial record he'd ever made

also everyone loved Pump Up The Volume

All that movie needed was a scene of shirtless Leonard spinning around in an office chair.

In fact, he did his best work after the '70s!

He did most of his best work in the 70s. His very best work was done in 1983 (and late 60s if you count "Bookends"). However, what he has done since 1986 is largely a good bit overrated.

Paul Simon >>>>>>>>>>>> Art Garfunkel though.

yo i just found this and all i can say is god damn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46bkXgxb66E

simons dork brio is otherworldly

haha yes

he changed "four in the morning, crapped out, yawning" to "tapped out," which is a bummer

His very best work was done in 1983 (and late 60s)

Thought you meant Cohen here, 'cause I'd say that's true too.

I'd say Cohen is Yeats and Simon is Eliot.

cohen is missy and simon is elliot

his early 70s longish hair w/ combover look was something to behold

cohen is e.t. and simon is eliot

late 70s i guess but

http://permanentplastichelmet.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/paul-simon.jpg

xp there it is

cohen is robert culp and simon is elliott (gould)