Audiophile inquiry: time to upgrade my stereo system's amp...

For my fellow sound geeks: I play 90% vinyl at home, and I have a pretty nice turntable (the Pro-Ject X-Pression III) and some decently powerful and good-sounding bookshelf speakers from the now-defunct Acoustic Research. I've had the sneaking suspicion for a while, however, that my amp isn't doing the Pro-Ject justice; it's an Onkyo TX-8511, and it's pretty rock-solid and fine and all, but I want MORE. I'm trying to decide whether to get a far nicer integrated amplifier with a phono stage (so I can just plug the turntable directly into the amp and be good to go), or to get one without a phono stage and buy a separate nice phono stage. I've heard that the second scenario will ultimately yield better sound, but I've also heard that the differences are negligible until you start spending, like, REAL serious dough. I'm looking at and considering a few things at the moment: the NAD 326BEE + an external Pro-Ject phono stage (to match the turntable); the Marantz PM5004 integrated amp with phono stage; and the Music Hall a15.2 integrated amp with phono stage. I'm trying to keep it under, say, $700, and any advice or experience with any of these brands or with this sort of setup would be greatly appreciated...

i have a cambridge audio w/separate cambridge audio phono preamp, love it

I have the same set up, Cambridge x2, but they are both entry-level, I think pretty much bottom of the line, and I have a pretty expensive turntable now (Linn LP12) and my audiophile friend is always hassling me to upgrade my amp. I think I need to get a stylus first because the one I've got is showing its age now but in a few months maybe I think I might look at the amp as well. My friend swears by getting stuff 2nd hand off Ebay which tbh is how I got the Linn.

yeah i would imagine the 540a cambridge is a step up from the onkyo.

GET*SET*GO 6B4G amp. Get a decent used preamp on audiogon. I'm not kidding, a little effort and you will have sweet music.

I have the 340A and 540P

That NAD amp and separate phono section would work fine. I'm sure the NAD PP2 thing is fine (and it's cheap, though I've heard it's output is a little low), but if you can go a notch farther, to something like a Musical Fidelity, or Creek, or maybe even something like this Vincent (supposedly one of the best entry-level high-end deals right now), do it. You'll be living with it for a while.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Vincent-Audio-PHO-8-Phono-Preamp?sc=2&category=39533

And get a decent cable, but don't go nuts. an entry-level audioquest would be great. Audiogon.com is the high-end audio ebay. You can get good deals there. The NAD you're interested in just sold for $289.

And give it all time to break in. Nothing ever sounds "right" when you fire it up the first time.

Man, can't believe I wrote "it's." Wish I could blame auto-correct.....

I have a NAD phono into a Cambridge Audio Azur 640A, for a ten-year-old Project Debut. About 1% of my listening is vinyl, though (have a Rega Apollo CD player).

I've been eyeing the Rega Apollo but so much of their promo material reads like snake oil boosting.

It is very, very good, and I would thoroughly recommend.

Of the 3 choices you list, I'd go with the Music Hall. I'll need to give you a bit of back story to tell you why.

I have two set-ups:

My AUX set-up has just the basics and includes the same Onkyo receiver as you have. The drivers are bookshelves coming in the form of Wharfedale Diamonds. This system sounds fine for it's purposes, but nobody would ever consider it to be anywhere near audiophile quality.

My MAIN set-up has changed a lot over years, but has always been centered around an old Pioneer receiver. I used to run those same Wharfedales as drivers and I can tell you this: The sound of these same speakers driven from the old Pioneer is vastly superior to that when driven from the Onkyo. Power-wise, you can't trust the 100W power claim on that Onkyo as the 40W "true" rating of the Pioneer blows its doors off — especially on vinyl.

So yes, I heartily agree that your amp is limiting your system; and it's hard to beat nice, clean power. I'm no gear-head, but all three seem to be fine options. I don't doubt that a separate phono stage can offer superior fidelty, but if it were me, i'd place the emphasis on RAW POWER. The Marantz is rated at 35W and the NAD at 50W (plus, the need for phono stage). However, the Music Hall, while only having a 1-year warranty, is rated at a whopping 75W. 'Nuff said.

Side thoughts on bookshelf speakers Small speakers are "physics-ly" challenged in reproducing the lower frequencies. That is, the low freqs have wave amplitudes that are physically larger than the box in which they are trying to be created. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the small form factors and great detail that many of these small speakers can produce — but they simply cannot compare with their bonafide full-sized brethren.

I think you'll absolutely love any of the amp upgrades you list, but you might consider setting another budget aside for those speakers; for around the same money you've set for your amp, you can get one more "leapfrog" of sound from your system. And running those bigger speakers is another reason on going with the more highly-powered amp.

Please report back as details develop.

i couldn't resist buying a pristine 40 year old pioneer system a couple weeks ago. been playing it in the store. got it for a steal. the speakers make me weep.

http://vintageelectronics.betamaxcollectors.com/images/pioneerstereoreceivermodelsx-9000_1.jpg

http://vintageelectronics.betamaxcollectors.com/images/pioneerstereoreceivermodelsx-9000_3.jpg

http://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/speaker/cs-a88.JPG

http://www.iavscanada.com/1002%20Inventorypics/1002-3606/Innovative%20Audio%20Pioneer%20PL-50_f_l.jpg

even comes with the schematics and original replacement parts! sorry, this doesn't have anything to do with buying a new amplifier. just some home audio love. i'm gonna take it home when we move into our new place.

can't say i've had much use for the patented reverb setting on this model though.

http://vintageelectronics.betamaxcollectors.com/images/pioneerstereoreceivermodelsx-9000_8.jpg

That is a fine set of gear! Make sure you get the caps replaced if they're original.

Marantz PM5004 is available used for $358 at Onecall via Amazon right now. That's a good-ass value. If you want power, I'd recommend these:

Emotiva USP-1 Stereo Preamplifier, $449
Emotiva UPA-2 Two Channel (125x2) Power Amplifier, $299 (awesome clearance deal)

Happy shopping.

If you have time/patience, look for Rotel or Rega used.

Scott, the home audio love is more than welcome; what a lovely old setup... And thank you guys very much for the recommendations thus far. Suspecterrain, do you think it was sheerly the higher power rating of your Pioneer that made it outperform the Onkyo, or do you think the amp itself was simply superior aside from the wattage? I only ask because I feel like I've read things on various forums and in various reviews that the power supply to the speakers isn't vastly important unless they're literally mismatched in their ratings (which wouldn't be the case with any of the amps I'm considering) or unless you're demanding a ton from your speakers (which, given I have neighbors, I don't).

Also, my thinking now is that I can spend my budget on a very nice integrated amp with a phono stage, and if I want to upgrade to a separate phono stage at some point I can certainly do that even with an amp that already has one... Am I right?

Fastnbulbous, those Emotiva products sound really interesting...

i couldn't resist buying a pristine 40 year old pioneer system a couple weeks ago. been playing it in the store. got it for a steal. the speakers make me weep.

Sounded great in your store last week! Curious what the "vivid" setting does. And there's a setting for a wireless mic? Weird.

no, YOU sounded great in my store last week. and later i think my brother scratched the top of one of the speakers with his shenanigans. but that's the price you pay for bunnybrains love. plus, he brought me cool records that i bought off of him.

are you coming to the jandek show at flywheel? i think maria pre-ordered tickets for us. its on my birthday. i might have to bring a cot or a chaise lounge though. those flywheel chairs can get rough after a while and ol' jandek can go for days.

Thanks, man. I wish I could go to Jandek, but from what I understand, it's pretty much sold out. Also, maximum occupancy can sometimes be an issue at Flywheel. Get there early!

Yeah, both Emotiva and Outlaw are great places to get audiophile quality gear at factory direct prices. Emotiva's amps in particular are always well reviewed, often recommended by Audioholics site among others. I have the XPA-5 for my HT setup and am very happy with it.

This is why I'm glad I started this thread... It's like everything else; there's so much there beyond the big brands.

Is there any relatively affordable sub woofer anyone could recommend? (to be paired with my epos els bookshelves)

I bumped a thread the other week to ask sound system questions and didn't get a reply, so I'm going to cheekily hope that diving into an active thread and reposting serves me better:

I'm moving and can't be bothered lugging my pretty bad and pretty broken midi hi-fi system with me, so I guess now is the time to put together a new stereo system. I have a Pro-Ject Debut III turntable and, um, whatever pre-amp I got with that, but besides that I'm starting fresh and clueless - what do I need and how do I get it for pref under £200? (Not really looking for anything but the basics, but basics of reasonable quality would be good.) Would a DVD player suffice as a CD component?

(If there's a thread specific to this kind of beginners question then do plz direct me towards it. And while I'm sure there's stuff covering this on the internet somewhere, I trust ILX more.)

(And I guess one condition would be that it'd be nice if the speakers sound good at a fairly low volume, so I can avoid making my flatmates hate me right away.)

do you think it was sheerly the higher power rating of your Pioneer that made it outperform the Onkyo, or do you think the amp itself was simply superior aside from the wattage?

Yeah, i dunno. But if the "honest" power of my Pioneer is 40W then what is the actual wattage of the 100W-rated Onkyo? Is it 20W, is it less? Would you consider driving 100W-rated speakers (which is likely what your AR are) from a 20W amp a mis-match?

I've been told by Wharfedale that the units of theirs that i blew-out were likely the result of my "under-powered amp" (i.e. both the Onkyo and the Pioneer). I don't know if i necessarily take that notion as gospel, but i do agree with the concept.

Also, how long do you expect to have this new amp; 5-10 years? 20 years? Will you one day need the extra power?

Side note: When i do my next upgrade, i will seriously be considering a pair of Behringer A500s.

Oops, try this link

RE: Power. The glory of any NAD amp has always been its transient dynamic ability, which is to say a real-world capacity for dealing with peaks. It's the difference between getting strong on a Universal or getting strong with free weights—anyone can bulk up their biceps, it's the tendons and ligaments that really matter.... Go with a 50 watt NAD every time over a 100 watt pioneer, or even a 75 watt Music Hall. The second difficulty, though, in that comparison above, is that there's no look at the outputs of the respective phono sections, or even of the cartridges involved.

Or, to force another metaphor, it's the difference between a Trans Am and a low end BMW. The written specs might favor the Camaro, but which one do you want to throw into a mountain corner at 60 mph? The line about the Music Hall's only having a one-year warranty is telling, no?

And, I don't have time to look this up right now, but I wouldn't be shocked if the NAD had the ability to act as a pre-amp for a more powerful amp (or to bridge, using its own amp plus a matching amp) should the budget allow down the line.

For the record, I've never had an NAD amp (though a radio station I worked at did). I do have a Rotel pre-amp and amp (they favor detail, whereas the NADs are more robust), though, truth be told, I listen to them less and less and usually just go through my computer interface and studio monitors. But Rotel's gotten pricier since then, I think. NAD amps are a great value.

hah, switched muscle cars mid analogy. do they even still make either?

I've always recommended that anyone buying vintage off eBay, takes it to a upscale HiFi store and gets them to take a look.
They'll charge you about £$20, but everything I know has needed a MOT to get it perfect. If it's small they sometimes do it for free.

So I bought these cheap Sony SS-B1000 speakers because they're cheap. I can't afford better. But this person on Amazon says that you absolutely should not connect them to an amp that puts out less than 40 watts per channel or you will ruin them. Truth or Bullshit?

Read all about it:
http://www.amazon.com/review/RIXJCQPOKHGW1/ref=cm_cr_dp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000OG88KY&nodeID=172282&tag=&linkCode=

I don't know anything about these particular speakers, however, if they are power-hungry, using an underpowered amp will mean that the amp will be clipping once you hit a certain volume, and that will produce distorted waveforms, which could damage your speakers.

So, it depends on how loud you want to listen to music. But, if these speakers are only ¢40, I would suggest that the reviewer is talking out of his arse.

If you don't want to shred 'em, i'd wouldn't go ape shit with your volume knob.

I'm a Rega convert. All my gear is by them. Recently bought their DAC which, no it's burned in, is taking my system to new levels of audio bliss.

The Mira amp has a built in phono stage. Worth looking into.

I adore my Rega Apollo. Last CD player I'll ever buy, barring a lottery win (which would be very unexpected as we don't play it). May do a final amplifier upgrade at some stage in a couple of years.

Okay, thanks Chewie and ST. My amp is a Sansui 210. It only puts out 10 watts per channel. Definitely not for loud music.

The Apollo would be extra nice if it was made with a front-loading tray instead of that wonky top hatch.

Not sure which audiophile thread to revive but...

Finally thinking about getting rid. Needs must, etc.

Any Londoners here have any experience selling gear through shops? I feel a bit more comfortable about going to a hi-fi dealer with a list of gear (that hopefully he/she would be familiar with, though I do own some fairly obscure stuff) and getting ballpark quotes rather than just bunging it all on Gumtree or eBay. I know I'd likely be offered less by the dealer but at least it would all go.

(I wouldn't be completely without music; I would probably put together a very basic secondhand system for £300 or something).

Depends what you value more, convenience in getting rid of your gear quickly or a good price. On my experience dealers will offer 40-50% of what they'll sell it for. You can often get surprisingly good prices on ebay, especially if it's a little unusual. It is a bit more hassle and the ebay/paypal fees will take about 20% off your selling price. Third alternative is to sell it on a hifi forum such as avforums or hifiwigwam, that way you can avoid the sellers fees on ebay, downside is you may not get as good a price or sell all your gear.

Enormous sadface.

It's either this or the house, Nick! Well, not quite...

There are seven items to sell, plus a bunch of cables and interconnects (keeping two or three things). It's all 10-15 years old. I thought a dealer might be the easiest way to get rid of everything but, as you say, probably not the most lucrative.

Good luck with it.

I also have a Rega Apollo. It is pucker, and has been working swell for years.

Does Audiogon operate over in the UK? I've bought things that way, but only in the US.

Phase one of the downgrade was this weekend; took advantage of the inevitable disruption of accommodating a new (free) TV by disconnecting the Audiolabs and the Copland and then running the Sony DVD player and the telly through my 1980s Cyrus amp. It sounds...OK. Especially at low volumes. Vinyl actually sounds lovely, but I better not get used to that - it's still the Gyro/RB300/MC25FL/NVA source and that's going.

Think I'm going to keep the Heybrook speakers and some of the cabling (simply because it's too much hassle to swap it all out). Not quite sure how the final system is going to shape up; there are four inputs on the Cyrus, so probably:

Turntable (2nd-hand Rega/Project/etc w/MM cart) > PHONO
Sony TV (so DVB/VCR/DVD/USB/Wii/HDMI-input) > TUNER
Sony DVD (for CD playback when the telly is off) > DISC
Something suitably C21st (Brennan? iPod? Squeezebox? Advice welcomed!) > TAPE

Nakamichi tape deck and Sony MD deck will go into "storage". The rest will be sold. Phase 2 is next weekend, when I properly dismantle everything and take photos for eBay.

I'd put a squeezebox touch in the TAPE input, as it has a spotify app and other extra stuff, and you can connect a local HD or a network drive.

It needs the squeezebox server, but if thats an issue, I've been interested by a Rasberry PI running XBMC as a cheap and low power/ high quality streamer.

Are the communities on hifi forums more difficult to satisfy? One thing I like about ebay is that customers are more likely to be an average consumer not an audiophile...if the thing is clean and works they are usually happy. I'm that way as a consumer - if it has all the buttons and works, I am happy!

My gorgeous speakers blew at an outdoor party a year ago. I have this gorgeous equipment (some used on ebay)...and thrift store speakers.

Oh, I listed it all, btw...

The Chord Co Chameleon 2 interconnect (5.0m pair) that used to run from pre-amp to power amps in the old Greenwich flat has already gone, Buy It Now price. Kind of surprising. Lots of interest on everything else, the usual daft questions ("can I make you an offer? will you ship to Hong Kong?") and only the monoblocs have currently reached their reserve. Everything ends Monday evening.

Apologies for the awful sales-type copy!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251105611429?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1361
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251105621082?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1361
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251105626898?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1361
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251105634342?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1361
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251105638467?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1361
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251105655784?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1361
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251105662083?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1361

coveting all that gear, michael, wish i could grab the amps. it goes without saying that the photo quality of all items is a+++. good luck with the sales.

got a breakdown of the £300 replacement you're thinking about picking up? ~interested~

£300 replacement? Did I say that somewhere?

Right now, we've got a Sony DVD player running through a late-'80s Cyrus Two, driving the Heybrooks (the only eBay-listed item still hooked up). The plan is to build a shelf for some smaller monitors, something like Q-Acoustics 2020i (which are around £150). And add an iPod or Squeezebox to the system. Oh, and we've managed to get a Rega Planar 2/RB250/Bias 2 for nothing, so that's vinyl sorted out (still need to fine-tune that...)

My feeling is that everything will go for just beyond its reserve, with the exception of the Gyro (hopefully far more) and the Heybrooks (poss won't sell). I can't see us putting the Heybrooks on this projected shelf in the new arrangement without it falling out of the wall.

So, I ended up going with a higher-end Marantz integrated (w/ phono stage) than I was initially considering: the PM-8004, which has twice the power as the 5004 in the initial running. It sounds stunning to my ears, a gigantic leap beyond the old Onkyo to a degree I honeslty didn't foresee. It's got a "source direct" mode which bypasses the EQ and which makes my vinyl sound incredible. I don't think I'll ever get over how amazing it is to hear little details for the first time in songs you think you know well. I got the thing yesterday afternoon, and after I set it up my girlfriend and I just sat around for like eight hours playing song after song and just marvelling. I considered so many different options, but in the end I had a really good gut feeling about this amp.

Yay. It's great, isn't it? Just thinking..."Oh, I need to hear this now..."

My downgraded system, as described above, sounds pretty nice. Put the Sony MD deck back in there too, to offer a few more digital in/out options. Got the Q-Acoustics 2020i speakers up on their wall brackets last night. Everything is in or on a long 1960s sideboard with a much smaller footprint than the gigantic Ikea unit which use to house all the gear.

Played Clark, Matmos, The Fall, Stan Getz, John Surman, Stereolab, Grooverider... vinyl and CD. If I could just get to the root of the problem with the vinyl source (one channel breaks up occasionally - doesn't appear to be stylus-related, more like the captive tonearm lead), it would all be fine.

Yikes... Are you handy with them, or will you need to send/take it somewhere to get checked out? And yeah, that feeling of "oh man, what's THIS going to sound like now?" is so great. I'm excited to take another leap up with the speakers I'm planning to get soon... Then hopefully I'll be set for years and years.

looking for a decent setup for £500-1000 (max) inc bookshelf speakers, amp, CD & vinyl

possible?

richer sounds cd/amp/speakers package and a pro-ject debut?

Entirely possible, cozen.

Just picking stuff randomly off Superfi's website that appeals to my aesthetics/prejudices...

Marantz CD5004
Marantz PM5004
Pro-Ject Genie III
Q-Acoustics 2020i or Kef C1 or Dali Zensor 1

Total, about £710-750. Add cables. NAD, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkyo, Teac... they're all pretty decent.

My CD player is a Marantz CD5001SE and it's pretty decent for a cheap model.

ha ha, RS has exactly those 3 things as a package for £419:

http://www.richersounds.com/package/system-savers/hifi-separate-systems/pah01316

and the genie mk3 for < £215

Ah, that's the smaller, cheaper Q-Acoustic bookshelf model. Still a good price though.

it's really a shame that most people listen to music on such shitty equipment now given that i don't think there's ever been a time where you could get to a very good level of audiophile gear for such reasonable prices as you can today

I'm hoping that moving house will be like getting a new component.

siiiiick, thanks

genie is kinda ugly though; might plump for the entry level rega instead

What's that these days - the RP1? Nice. Looks like my Planar 2, more or less. Which has the Bias 2 cart, which is in the RP1 "performance pack".

> genie is kinda ugly though

8(

i don't like that none of these things appear to come with a dust cover. without a dust cover how are you going to store stacks of cds and other crap on top of your turntable?

Rega RP1 has a great stacks of cds and other crap storage facility. It sounds good, to my ears at least. Have had a couple of niggles with it recently - the pitch was fluctuating very slightly at 33rpm for a bit, but that seems to have stopped (I left it alone for a month while I moved house), and now one of the channels seems to drop out occasionally, haven't yet figured if it's the cables or amp input. It's still under warranty so I'm not too concerned at the moment.

Yeah, having lived with a Gyro SE for 13 years, sans dust cover, it is nice to be back in the world of conventional turntables with lids.

What's happening with your RP1 sounds like what's happening occasionally with my Planar 2, er, "useless chamber". I'm concerned that it's actually the MM-stage in my Cyrus which is failing but maybe it really is the internal cabling of the tonearm. Haven't been able to quite pin it down. Listened to an hour of vinyl last night without a hitch though...

> the pitch was fluctuating very slightly at 33rpm for a bit

i found that where my turntable (nad 512(?), rubber belt drive) had been set at 45 for about a year the belt had stretched a touch and was a tad loose on the smaller 33 socket. was ok after a while though.

I had a pitch fluctuation problem with my Rotel RP-855, and the guy who repaired it said it was because I hadn't hit the 45/33 selector switch enough (I hadn't played any 45s in years). It became oxidized, which somehow led to pitch fluctuation.

Can anyone recommend good bookshelf speakers with decent bass. Working w/ a 2.1 receiver or I'd be getting a sub.

Get the best PSB (US or Canada) or B&W (UK) you can afford.

yeah seeing a lot of recommendations of the PSBs. might have to save up a bit. people also rave about energy's rc-10s but it looks like they're discontinued.

Checked out some B&Ws at a store recently, and holy crap were they stunning.

I've also read nothing but good things about Wharfedale Diamond 10.1.

Wharfedale Diamond

Yo Jonesy (and anyone else) we're needing to move the hi-fi in the new hours, which will require new speaker cable (about 12-14 metres of it); reassure me that super expensive stuff is just snake-oil, and bog-standard £2p/m Cambridge Audio or QED thin stuff will do me right, aye? i.e. that it's a £30 job and not a £60 job.

Rega Apollo CD player, Cambridge Audio Azur 640A amp, B&W 685 speakers. fwiw.

Yep, £2/metre will do you.

Found Van Damme Blue 1.5 half price online; could do the job for about £20.

New house not new hours. Duh.

That's the ticket!

Have bought 15m of Van Damme Blue 1.5 at 50% off; even with postage it was less than £23. Bonkers.

as everybody here knows perfectly well - good placement is worth all the snake-oil in the world. Bearing that in mind, I will probably soon be buying a house soon and I'm thinking of turning the attic into a dedicated listening room - does anyone have tips for accoustics "unconventional" spaces, eg in my case a pitched roof

Headphones.

Ba dum tsssh, I'm here all week, etc etc.

Time and placement have got to be the best things for odd spaces.

I was over the moon with a dedicated listening room (in the attic) when I moved two years ago - have barely spent a week there, in total. Good for nights with friends but I never go there on my own. Kept dragging LPs and CDs down the stairs to listen to in the living. Even my girlfriend says she misses the music-stuff. We're moving again in two months, everything's going back into the living room (no attic in the new place :)

Arcam A85 Amp, Arcam CD23 cd player, B&W CM1's >>>> very nice.

Would recommend both of the Arcam's if you can pick them up 2nd hand.

I was over the moon with a dedicated listening room (in the attic) when I moved two years ago - have barely spent a week there, in total. Good for nights with friends but I never go there on my own. Kept dragging LPs and CDs down the stairs to listen to in the living. Even my girlfriend says she misses the music-stuff. We're moving again in two months, everything's going back into the living room (no attic in the new place :)

― willem, lundi 25 mars 2013 13:18 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah I'm also worried that's how my plan will end up - BUT in my case I have to deal with a wife with a very low tolerance level for rock/electro music and who gets upset if the volume requires her to raise her voice. Also, I would still have a B&W Zeppelin for the living room

We're finally buying a Rega, but I'm about to set it up with two ancient, large Polk Audio speakers from the eighties I inherited from my dad and an Fisher receiver straight from the thrift store. I was warned that entry level hi-fi is an expensive hobby - I'm beginning to see why.

This thread has been helpful though. I guess I'm of the 'buy quality, buy once' persuasion, but I'm also of the 'champagne tastes on a beer budget' persuasion, too. Ideas?

I guess what I'm asking is, am I putting ketchup on a steak if I hook this turntable up to this amp and these speakers?

I'm afraid I have no idea. Suck it and see. If you like it, winner!

does it make sense to get speakers like these, which i understand are considered pretty good for the price, if all i'm going to drive them with is a laptop, iphone and airport express (i.e. no turntable, music no better than itune download quality): http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-Designed-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B008NCD2LG/

if they do make sense, any advice about what amp to drive them with? obviously don't want to spend significantly more than the cost of the speakers. would prefer one of those tiny ones for my tiny apartment.

audioengine a2 imo

or troll around musician forums for good nearfield powered monitors?

i think i've boiled it down to:

1) those pioneers + amp + apple tv (in airport express mode, i don't even have a tv, but an apple tv costs the same)
OR
2) http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-XW-SMA4-K-Speaker-featuring-Wireless/dp/B00903HKXI, which i would once in a blue moon use the aux-in port for

i'm guessing option 1 is going to sound better, cost a tiny bit more, be more cluttered

i've had reference monitors before and i don't think they're what i'm looking for. i want apartment-filling sound for silent shout sundays.

audioengine a5 imo

you might be able to pickup a nice used amp at one of a few places that would work well with those speakers.
I use an airport -> amp -> speakers for computer playback at home and it works well.
this setup will accommodate future expansion too. if you ever decide you want to add a turntable or any other input source, you're all set to go.

I mean, you might not really want to go down that path. I'm just saying.

too obvious to point out but if you get the apple tv you'll need an amp with an onboard DAC and optical input (which is actually a good thing imo)

might be good to take advantage of B&H's return policy, audition, see how you feel

except B&H is closing soon for succos, doh

that's not too obvious to point out because I had no idea that apple tv didn't have an analog out.
my advice isn't so good then.

never going to own records or a record player again. (except i have one copy of the easy rider soundtrack in one of those v nice new ikea frames designed for vinyl.)

ultra cheap component amp would do the job seems excessive in a tiny apartment. i mean i don't even know why i'm looking at bookshelf speakers tbh given the size of my bookshelf.

yeah I'd disregard my advice then. those speakers seem pretty small tho

Funny, this thread came up in a random Google search when I was researching integrated amps. Since I upgraded my headphone gear to a Meier Audio Daccord/Classic stack, I'm now connecting the DAC to my stereo. Previously I was connecting my Harman Kardon AVR 645 to my computer via USB. I moved that to the office when I upgraded my HT setup in the living room to a Marantz AV8003 (w/ Emotiva XPA5 amp). The H/K is buggy, it crashed weekly when I used it for AV and had to re-set all the settings/DSP. It worked fine for 2 channel music, but I'm not happy with how it sounds with my Rega R3s.

I thought it might be fun to get a vintage integrated amp, but it seems too many people have the same idea and the prices on stuff by Marantz, Sansui, etc. are way too inflated for 30-40 year-old gear. I also don't want to deal with maintenance and the risk of sudden failure. I could just run my Daccord DAC directly to an Emotiva UPA-200 amp. However I probably should reserve the option to use my CD player and tape deck for the times when I have computer issues. I could follow my own advice from 3 yrs ago and do the Emotiva combo with USP-1 (discontinued but refurbed for $700 total), but I'm leaning more toward a good deal on a sexier budget audiophile brand.

A NAD C355BEEE, 80w, $320 currently is the closest I've found to what I was looking to spend, though a Rega Mira 3 for $650 is tempting to match with my Rega speakers. It seems harder to find good deals on Roksan, Naim, Rotel and Arcam in the U.S. As noted upthread, Marantz PM-8004 and 8005 are good options, but while I like my the Marantz in my living room, I like the idea of having something different.

I can vouch for the NAD C355BEEE - which is a very solid all-rounder in my view.

I e got a C320BEE which I assume is an older version in my second system. It's very good.

I believe the C32x series is 50w rather than 80w. I'm guessing you're running some bookshelf speakers from it?

Aye, small bookshelf speakers. Q Acoustics.

I also had an option for a Rotel RA-1520 (60w) for $350 plus shipping, but went ahead and got the NAD. I drove to Bridgeport to pick it up today, and the guy restores vintage gear and showed me some cool stuff, including a gorgeous vintage Sansui from the 60s. I didn't realize how nice that stuff looked.

I had to keep volume very low as it's after 9 but the sound improvement over the Harman Kardon is instantly noticeable. NAD raised the list price from 600 for the 355 to 800 for the 356, supposedly because it uses technology from their flagship M series, but from what I read it's hard to tell much difference. So I think I got a great value.

I need a new receiver for my secondary system but it's the one that I use to digitize vinyl and cassettes (not often but still). Thinking of the Outlaw RR2150 (a bit pricey) or the Onkyo TX-8255 (much more affordable). Having said that, I've had an NAD HT receiver for a dozen years and the thing sounds great so I may look into NAD again.

i've heard onkyo has gone really downhill in the last decade, i don't know if they got bought out or what but fwik it's not supposed to be near the level of the 80s/90s receivers.

Yeah I don't know about Onkyo. They may have similar problems that Harman Kardon has had in increasingly flawed consumer level products. Definitely recommended NAD if you can find a deal like mine! I considered the RR2150, but always miss their sales. Other good deals I've seen for less than the regular Outlaw price are Yamaha AS-700 for $593 on eBay, and on Audiogon, Rega Mira 3 $650, Marantz PM-8004 $600 and Rotel RA-1520 $350. If you want the option to power bigger speakers, Emotiva USP-1/UPA-200 125w combo is available for same price as the Outlaw.

Also, a good value if you want something new with warranty and all that would be the Yamaha A-S500. At 85w it has plenty of power, looks like a good unit for $450 list/$400 Amazon. Like Denon and NAD, Yamaha has invested in making some upper-end audiophile grade stuff (starting with the $8,000 A-S3000) which reviews seem to indicate some of the design advantages trickle down to the less expensive products. It may not be as hip as Marantz, but the quality isn't a new thing. 8 yrs ago I got a used HTR-5730 for $65 on eBay that was intended as just temporary, but it sounds so good I still use it in my bedroom with Wharfedale Evo 20s.

http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Yamaha-A-S500/
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/hifi-components/amps/

I bought a Yamaha receiver and tape deck in 1985 - and the receiver still works! Though now it's an amp because the tuner died years ago and one of the channels is failing, hence the need to replace it. Good to hear Yamaha is still worth looking into. (The tape deck also lost one channel a few years ago but I was able to scavenge a better model from my parents who almost never used it)

Oh but one of the selling points of the Outlaw was it has a phono input, I'd rather not have to buy a separate phono amp.

The S-500 has phono input (MM phono in = Yes), as do most of the pieces mentioned above. What's great about most Yamahas is the Pure Direct option, which allows for a shortest-path signal without any other DSPs/filters interfering. Makes me wonder why more companies don't have that.

But I could be wrong, as I no longer use turntables. Definitely double check specs of whatever you consider to make sure it includes the phono stage you want!

Any luck? I'm selling a bunch of stuff (bike, wheels, Harman/Kardon AVR, Wharfedale rear surrounds) just on Craigslist and man, people are such flakes. But still easier than dealing with packing that stuff for ebay.

I'm not moving on this for a while, still trying to cobble together a whole home listening setup without going for Sonos because I've already got so many of the pieces. Today I got a small bluetooth receiver for the living room, a small improvement that I may replicate elsewhere.

My challenge is that I start listening to an album on my phone in the car and want to continue as I move around my house. I have a line-in everywhere but it's kind of a pain, especially when I need my phone at the same time. Getting bluetooth receivers is a good start.

Yeah I have two Squeezebox receivers, works great. I just use optical out in order to use better DAC in Marantz in living room, and a headphone amp in bedroom. I can use iPhone as remote too. I don't think Logitech is supporting them anymore, so I thought Sonos were the main option, but yeah bluetooth.

is there any common wisdom on commonly found 'pretty dece' 70s/80s speakers/stereos that one might find on craigslist/goodwill/etc? i'm not terribly picky

i bet these would be really nice

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ele/d/mirage-m490-speakers-2-way/6597401741.html

also i have some i'll mssg u

sick

i suppose like late 80s/early 90s would be the peak era for pretty quality yet affordable audio stuff?

recently i’ve been getting static through my center channel and the left speaker, even with the volume all the way down. it’s not always there. but sometimes it is. a crackly, chaotic static. is this the dreaded “ground loop”?? it’s a french (two pin) power cable plugged into a fused UK adaptor and thence into a power strip. i’m wondering if i can ground it better somehow.. i suppose it’s possible there’s an issue with the speaker terminals on the amp (it’s very old) but i can’t figure why all of a sudden BOTH speaker terminals (centre and left) would get noisy

anyway is one of those things where despite myself i start wondering… maybe there is something to this like, shielded, conditioned power supply bullshit

I would disconnect everything and clean the plugs/terminals with a contact cleaner like Caig Pro Gold. Reconnect then evaluate.

I have some lovely Kef Concorde floor-standing speakers and have something similar in my right channel. I often get the sense that I haven't got a full sound from the speaker, so will twist the balance to check and sometimes the speaker will crackle and pop, sometimes shorting the amp altogether. I've rewired a couple of times and checked the connections. Maybe I should try the cleaning option.

will need more info about your set up tracer. is it intermittent? could be something in your signal chain is ungrounded and picking up interference (i.e. your phone's cell radio).

if your amp has a two pin power connector then it probably doesn't need additional grounding?

PBKR otm. Redo the ends of the cables maybe, and check it for any breaks along the way. Then contact cleaner if necessary. Would be willing to bet that power conditioning wouldn't fix it.

For a quick check, swap in the cable from another channel if that's feasable.

Chinaski, I recently fixed a confusing channel imbalance on an 80s amp by turning its "input sensitivity" knob all the way (up? down?) to 1.25V. This after I reterminated cables. swapped cables, etc. Just some knob I'd never dealt with anywhere. If there's nothing like this I'd just say google the amp and see if anyone on audiokarma or wherever has dealt with it.

on second read, regardless that sounds like the knob needs contact cleaner. Hopefully not a broken pot. Balance pot is known to break in my amp but there's solutions and replacements online. Worth a search.

could always bypass it with some solder if you normally keep it set dead center.

that's all i got :)

i swapped which connectors on my receiver the L and R speakers were connected to (R speaker now in L connector and L speaker now in R) and presto suddenly it was the R speaker with the static. so it’s not the cables, i think? which would be a relief as one of them is actually plastered into the wall to hide it. it’s the connector then i think, or something along the path of that connector.

it is intermittent.

connectors? like banana plugs? Anyway you seem to have ruled out the receiver and speakers which is great!

sorry i mean the things in the stereo that accept the bare ends of wire. some have plastic screws that screw down and hold the wires in, others are little plastic clips on springs. it’s a v old AV receiver but has worked well for a long time.

the speakers are all relatively new and have been treated well (unlike my old ones!) so i’m pretty confident it’s not them.

oh those are swappable on the receiver? Neat. You should be able to find replacements, or bypass? Or maybe solder if there's some visible break in the metal?

no they are not swappable. i meant that i tried each speaker’s cable in each of the speaker outputs in the receiver, to see if the static came out of a different speaker when i did. sorry i am not explaining this well.

Maffew - thanks for your responses! I'll get some contact cleaner and go from there. I know a local guy that could look at the amp should the contact cleaner not fix it. Cheers.

No problem.

Tracer, the issue moved so it can't be the speaker or receiver. Get out the wire strippers out and redo the shoddy end of the cable on the receiver end. You could also manage with a knife, just wear gloves...hehh

I enjoy the audio threads. I'm not skilled enough to contribute much to actual stereo forums. Love a bit of tinkering.

i was getting static and channel drops and thought it was my stylus or something about my turntable (an old Thorens), or something in my amp (an old Marantz), and after suffering for months fidding with the balance knob, blowing in contact cleaner in the knobs, playing with the azimuth, I found that one of the plugs from the turntable into the amp wasn't pushed in all the way. problem solved.

is it intermittent? could be something in your signal chain is ungrounded and picking up interference (i.e. your phone's cell radio).

I am getting an intermittent buzzing that sounds to me to be coming from cell phone/wifi/internet etc
I thought if I have everything plugged into the same surge protector that it would be properly grounded. I've also tried to separate power chords from signal chords as much as possible. I'd really like to move my modem and router away from my stereo, but that's not really possible right now.
Also, the noise really varies based on which amp I'm using. Don't hear at all on my vintage Marantz receiver or a cheap class D mini amp, but it's pretty annoying when I use a vintage Sansui integrated amp.

xp to further up in this discussion:

If you get a short static or clipping sound when turning the volume or other knob on the amp/receiver, this is usually a potentiometer issue and can usually be resolved by opening up the unit and carefully spraying contact cleaner into the rear of the knob housing, then quickly twisting the knob back and forth to spread the cleaner around.

Did you try changing the input source on the receiver to see if the static is still there? I developed an issue with noise in my setup, and I switched the CD to use the Aux input and the issue disappeared. So it was something about the CD signal path inside the receiver.

what’s weird about my situation is the static and crackles happen of their own accord, regardless of which input is selected, and even with the volume turned all the way down. it sounds very random and chaotic and continues for a good 20 mins and then there’ll be nothing for like, hours. i know nothing about this stuff but it seems like something is building up, like a static charge, and needs to find an outlet. always center and L, never R.

Could be some bad grounding? Got a long extension cable to hook the system to an outlet in another room, to see if that resolves it?

yeah that's a good idea. i will keep you all apprised of this fast-moving story lol

I once traced an intermittent crackle to a specific capacitor in a tape deck, I was in school at the time and my instructor was skeptical that was the issue, but when I unsoldered it and pulled it out it was clear that a little bug had gotten fried and left a coating of carbonized bug on the bottom, which was intermittently causing the capacitor to short out.

that being said, maffew12's idea is a good one, hopefully that does the trick

there is an actual grounding outlet in the back of the receiver (which i think is mainly for use in conjunction with an FM antenna) and the manual recommends connecting it “to a metal stake in soft soil”

i can't be any help with the British mysticism. good luck!

Tracer I actually have a pro tip for that

find a 3-prong grounded outlet in your house, take a 3-wire extension cord, cut out the negative and positive leads leaving the green ground wire, and connect to that outlet which now only connects to earth ground (there is actually a metal rod like that outside of your house or flat somewhere that everything eventually connects to, but you just need that 3rd outlet prong)

(this is where I find out that UK outlets don't have grounds, or some weird similar issue)

Yeah, I would double-check that advise for UK outlets, etc.

Tracer, I assume you don't have tubes, because they can make some pretty weird sounds when they start to go.

that's a good call as well

lol where is Pashmina when we need him

I do not have tubes, and this problem went away as mysteriously as it appeared.