TS: The Fall v Cheap Trick

Starting [a href=Let an EXCELSIOR be an EXCELSIOR, and let sleeping LOLS lie}here[/a], lots of discussion about the relative merits of the two bands.

For me it's The Fall, but am uncommon in the UK for liking Cheap Trick a lot too.

surely albini putting the fall and cheap trick on at the same time counts as irl trolling

― goole, Monday, 2 April 2012 15:25 (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The Fall

Cheap Trick did some great things. They also did "The Flame" and that cover of "Don't Be Cruel". So...the Fall.

CHEAP TRICK

I don't think I've ever heard Cheap Trick beyond whatever their famous song was <-------- LOL Britishes

I've never seen either of them live though, and I imagine that at this moment in time, Cheap Trick is a better live band

sensing a US/ UK divide forming...

fuck The Fall

Cheap Trick, why bcs Oh Candy Hot Love Auf Wiedershen On Top of the World Surrender Dream Police If You Want My Love I Want You To Want Me Southern Girls ELO Kiddies

LOL Britishes

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, April 2, 2012 9:28 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

Hot Love Daddy Should Have Stayed In High School Downed Taxman Mr. Thief So Good To See You

it's cheap trick and also i'm constantly shocked whenever all the unabashed fall love on ilx gets a free pass. what a boring fucking band.

Entire novels could be written with The Fall titles!

xp I don't agree they get a free pass- c.f. contents of this thread.

a free pass for what?

for being so yawn-inducing

lol whatever Mordy, MES has been trolling rock nerds since before you were born

I was at the festival in question, no particular attraction to either band, saw The Fall. Afterwards my best friend was in ecstasies. "You could tell which songs they were playing! I've only been to two Fall gigs where you could tell which songs they were playing!"

One of the great things about growing up in Chicagoland was hearing "So Good To See You" and "Surrender" on the radio hourly (pre-Budokan).

There aren't any Fall songs I like as much as the best Cheap Trick songs, but I don't think there's a cumulative album's-worth of Cheap Trick songs that I'm crazy about. The same can't be said for the Fall.

P.S. You forgot "I Know What I Want", VG!

I doubt either band would make it into my top 200, though.

I sang "Surrender" at live band karaoke once, so I might throw Cheap Trick a bone for the moment of glory they bequeathed upon me.

I'm v glad you didnt make this into a poll

What is the Fall's signature piece of gear?

http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/rick_nielsen-5-neck.jpg

what a boring fucking band.

― Mordy, Monday, April 2, 2012 10:32 AM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes

Cheap Trick has at least an album's worth of songs I like. The Fall has one song. Going with Cheap Trick.

xp I was just thinking "what this thread really needs is a poll".

Which is the song you like EZ?

I bought one Fall album, illegally downloaded another and a boxset, and skimmed through parts of a fourth on youtube. Nothing even came close to grabbing me.

I know it's a cliche, but they're the kind of band you either "get" or don't, not like Cheap Trick at all in that respect perhaps.

Cheap Trick for sure. The Fall is good, but let's face it: you're on a desert island with one disc, it's gonna be a compilation of Cheap Trick, not the Fall.

i like Cheap Trick, but The Fall in a walk. haters can STEP RIGHT OFF.

I 'get" The Fall. Just don't think it's anything particularly special.

then you don't "get" The Fall.

I "get" Cheap Trick, if IWYtWM and Surrender are anything to go by, and ditto.

No, I don't "enjoy" The Fall. I "get" what people find appealing but I find it appalling.

lol Neil I thought that at first too re: poll, but fifteen posts in, I decided I'd be too angry if the Fall lost (purely subjective reaction btw)

also:

Cheap Trick for sure. The Fall is good, but let's face it: you're on a desert island with one disc, it's gonna be a compilation of Cheap Trick, not the Fall.

― Poliopolice, Monday, April 2, 2012 3:56 PM (5 minutes ago)

^this is way fucking offtm

Is the Fall considered good music to drive around to? What do you do to the Fall?

Neil - the one song I like, maybe even love, is "Cruiser's Creek". I've heard a few of the weird 90s stuff I think I could get into if I took the time, but the canonical 70s and 80s recordings leave me cold.

drink beers

xp

Really? What kind of beers? I don't buy that for one second.

90s stuff = 90s songs. No idea why I typed stuff.

Fuck Cheap Trick, I'll take the Fall. (ps I am more or less American)

i always imagine ppl listening to the fall while flipping through their high school yearbooks and trying to sniff up their tears from all the nostalgia and that message from your high school ex about how you'll always be together even tho they moved abroad the next year. nb idk if any of this is true, or if they even have yearbooks in UK

are we talking about the same Fall?

?????????

I had a Fall album in HS; I dug it a bit, but I was def not ready for any part of the Fall until I was like 22. 23....

I'll always imagine people listening to the fall in shabby grey trenchcoats over sweatervests, trying to separate loose tobacco from loose amphetamines out of their pockets.

xxxp you're thinking of The Cure.

xpost. If I'm on a desert island with one disc, it'd probably be any of several Fall albums vs. any Cheap Trick compilation. American, fwiw. I'd like to hear what Fall haters think of "Free Range" instead of the 80's stuff for a change.

Anyway, two bands aren't comparable. I don't think there is a comparison for Fall. Off the top of my head, maybe Robyn Hitchcock has a similar career arc (starts in '76, mid-career mainstream flirtation, and current constant possibility of a comeback hanging over our heads) but even that's stretching things.

I remember years ago, Guitar for the Practicing Musician used to do a column wherein guitarists would give little capsule reviews of like half a dozen classic tracks played for them by one of the mag's writers. I can't remember who it was, but in reference to Yes's "Roundabout" he said, "Nobody's ever lost their virginity to this song. Everyone remembers losing their virginity to, like, 'You Shook Me All Night Long.'"

Cheap Trick : "You Shook Me All Night Long" :: The Fall : "Roundabout"

First off, "I Want You to Want Me" is the worst Cheap Trick song ever. It's worse than the 80s crap they did. That doesn't belong on the compilation.

Except for the couple famous songs of each that I know I'm not sure I could pick out a Cure song from a Fall song

Vincent Gallo lost his virginity to Roundabout

mordy you have no idea what you are talking about in this thread

i've heard the fall many times, unfortunately. they just bore me to death.

I've always thought that "In Between Days" and "And This Day" were almost indistinguishable...

hear what Fall haters think of "Free Range" instead of the 80's stuff for a change.

Would be an okay Curve song without the mumbley man.

anyway, that's enough hating for me. i always hate when ppl come on an artist thread just to bitch about how much they dislike the artist. i just get particularly annoyed by the fall (and also new order) since they seem so universally beloved on ilx (maybe no universally, but widely) and like many beloved things on ilx i have checked them out a number of times, and unlike many beloved things on ilx i have never been able to get what ppl like in the music.

I'll always imagine people listening to the fall in shabby grey trenchcoats over sweatervests, trying to separate loose tobacco from loose amphetamines out of their pockets.

I'll always imagine gentrified liberal arts majors wearing tattered army surplus gear, chain smoking handrolled cigarettes, and conspicuously carrying around leatherbound copies of works by 19th century philosophers, moaning about class systems and how we need to implement long-discredited political philosophies

xp : Mordy, this isn't an artist-specific thread. There's an inherent opposition here. It's cool.

poliopolice - yes! far truer than mine.

yeah right on Mordy. I can't really explain what I hear in 'em, those early 80s albums came at just the right time I guess

yeah I'm cool with people hating on either or both bands.

The Fall can definitely be a marker for holier-than-thou Student Grant types, but their appeal goes a bit beyond that I think. And whatever you think of the music, Mark E Smith is an interesting character, though perhaps more so for Britishers than people from other nations?

No, we like him too.

The Fall are a decent band with two or three great albums but they don't move me/mean anything to me like Cheap Trick's best stuff does.

xp glad to hear it!

huh, i thought the cheap trick thing was ironic. what do you know.

What is the Fall's signature piece of gear?

MES's grotty tonsils

A set of bongos.

lol

I am NOT cool with anyone hating Cheap Trick fyi

(unless it's sucky Flame period & beyond, or Rick's terrible clothing choices)

can I just

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG26Sy0MNo4

I do think that to the average Briton Cheap Trick probably sounds like the Status Quo with more spunk or something, whereas in the US they were first-wave new-wave, grouped together with Blondie and The Cars, y'know: almost punk!

do not google Status Quo + more spunk, for the love of god

But weirder. Heavier. xp

'come on come on' on first listen does not sound particularly weird or heavy.

The great thing about Cheap Trick is how weird and perverse their lyrics are, and how those have been packaged with catchy hooks in a way where suddenly there's an arena of people singing along to a song about a pedophile, or how some dude's dad has VD

Everything about 70's Cheap Trick is just perfect to me. And I don't think they got CRAZY heavy til Dream Police iirc.

And honestly, there's no finer pop/rock drumming than Bun E Carlos. So much...'bounce'? Is that an acceptable drumming descriptor? I never know how to talk about drums except YAY THEY SOUND AMAZING.

maybe I'm making that up about Cheap Trick getting heavy with Dream Police. I guess I don't think of them as that heavy really at all. so forget what I just said :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj0bqypdJI8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrZHXYowMAU&feature=relmfu

The fact that Oh Candy is about suicide and makes me sing at the top of my lungs when I'm driving in my car I think is the perfect description of why Cheap Trick RULES

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL1SgiK2fbU&ob=av2e

i've heard the fall many times, unfortunately. they just bore me to death.

― Mordy, Monday, April 2, 2012 11:14 AM (39 minutes ago)

tbh I used to feel this way too

took me about 5 or 6 years of checking in before I finally got the fall

cheap trick obv instantly likeable but I will never obsessively listen to any cheap trick album the way I have certain fall records

the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference (#cliché bombs)

I am indifferent to Cheap Trick

THIS, forever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W0ZDVu1ORk

And honestly, there's no finer pop/rock drumming than Bun E Carlos. So much...'bounce'? Is that an acceptable drumming descriptor? I never know how to talk about drums except YAY THEY SOUND AMAZING.

Too bad Bun doesn't tour with them anymore. No Bun = no fun.

plus I'm pretty sure Robin Zander sang every song to me. Little bit of trivia.

I would take the Fall's Peel Sessions box over the Cheap Trick box.
I would take In Color … And in Black and White over any Fall LP.
I would take Cheap Trick over the Fall live.

But if forced to take sides I'd go with the Fall.

Is the Fall considered good music to drive around to?

Hell yeah!

"In need of white light!! No Bulbs In This Dump!!"

my best friend when i was abt 14 liked cheap trick, im not sure ive ever heard them discussed

i have issues w/ the fall and fall-partisanship but still the fall, obv

remember when Bun E. Carlos was in that "supergroup" with James Iha & one of the Hanson brothers & that dude from Fountains of Wayne?

Tinted Windows!

I actually kinda liked the album.

it was pretty nicely put-together pop, for what it was.

that's it! I never actually heard them, I just thought it was a hilariously absurd lineup.

I kinda dug this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OV5YbM3k8

it had some surprisingly good moments. Check the song, "Kind of a Girl."

This one's pretty cute too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCnIsJjIM4A

Pulling in Bun E for this gig was pretty genius. He's pretty much perfect for this style.

Best for Cheap Trick, but you know what I mean.

Ha, I grew up just thinking of Cheap Trick as AOR/classic hard rock (and thoroughly enjoyed them on the radio in that context!), more power pop than Foreigner, sure, but not radically different. I only learned much later that people also related them to punk/new wave. Their radio hits are as great as anyone's, all-time essential, but to be honest, I actually find their albums a bit unsatisfying and even grating to listen to in their entirety. Something like "Come On Come On" feels half-written for me, especially considering how well-crafted "Surrender" or "I Want You to Want Me" are.

about 20xpost

Ha, I grew up just thinking of Cheap Trick as AOR/classic hard rock (and thoroughly enjoyed them on the radio in that context!), more power pop than Foreigner, sure

(The difference is more apparent now, to be clear. Just reflecting on how I initially thought of them, probably especially coloured by the fact that the first things I heard were "The Flame" and "Ghost Town".)

Anyway, I never got into the Fall at all.

I like both these bands a lot.

I certainly prefer the Fall, but Cheap Trick are nothing to sneeze at , that run of records up through "Dream Police" is fantastic and there is probably great stuff throughout the 80s/90s, I've seen them live twice and both times were awesome.

But still, going with the Fall on this one.

xxpost I really want to like those earlier CT records more than I do - I definitely feel there's a small bracket of songs that are memorable and brilliant radio hits - Surrender, IWYTWM, Southern Girls (far and away the best song on IC) - and a lot of the album tracks aren't exactly filler and are 'catchy' in their own way but not nearly as well written or as memorable.

should probably add that, as they're both on the same album, both IWYTWM and Southern Girls are far and away the best things on there

Southern Girls has such a snappy beat, I get addicted to it

everybody seems pretty set in their opinion here, but it's really fucking hard for me to decide. i love both bands. cheap trick are sweet and easy while the fall are hard to get in every sense of the word. i feel that cheap trick return my love quite willingly and that the fall do so only only in the most spiteful and miserly fashion, but that doesn't make me love either of them any less.

talk upthread about a cheap trick DID compilation beating a comparable fall compilation easy. i don't know, but i'm not sure that's a fair competition anyway. cheap trick have these massive, MASSIVE singles that can't be denied, euphoria-inducing singalong monsters. "surrender", "elo kiddies", "want you to want me", "southern girls", "auf weidersehn", etc. otoh, they've only got four studio albums that i really give a shit about, and little more than maybe a double-album's worth of all-time songs spread throughout their whole career. plus i know that shit like the back of my hand.

the fall don't have cheap trick's hooks, melodies or voices. but that doesn't mean they don't have songs. and their discography is VAST, so vast that it's endlessly renewable, there's always stuff to find, or find again, or finally appreciate. that's why the DID competition slights their virtues. there are probably a hundred fall songs i love in some way or another, and at least a good double album's worth of all-time classics. but like i said, they aren't easy. though i'd stack "no bulbs" or "totally wired" against any of cheap trick's songs, they don't provide a comparable sugar rush. the appeal is more astringent and bitter. the appeal is in the energy & rhythm, the slashing noise and mark smiths clever lyrics.

i dunno, i wind up choosing cheap trick because they are so easy to love and so eager to love me back. but i feel like i'm denying the sharper of two children in favor of the one with the prettier hair.

they both have like 2 good songs

get tae fuck with you

xxpost I really want to like those earlier CT records more than I do - I definitely feel there's a small bracket of songs that are memorable and brilliant radio hits - Surrender, IWYTWM, Southern Girls (far and away the best song on IC) - and a lot of the album tracks aren't exactly filler and are 'catchy' in their own way but not nearly as well written or as memorable.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. There's maybe an EP's-worth of Cheap Trick songs which are all-time amazing best great great greatest songs ever. But the rest is kinda disposable.

Controversial opinion: on average, I might actually prefer the KISS stuff that came out around the time of Cheap Trick's earlier albums (although the best KISS obvs can't touch the best CT). One exception: KISS Alive is slightly lower than Budokan in my esteem.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. There's maybe an EP's-worth of Cheap Trick songs which are all-time amazing best great great greatest songs ever. But the rest is kinda disposable.

disagree strongly. i think cheap trick have a solid album's worth of all-time amazing best great songs ... and a whole bunch of also rans that range from near great to disposable. all recorded/released within a six-year period ('76 - '82).

Controversial opinion: on average, I might actually prefer the KISS stuff that came out around the time of Cheap Trick's earlier albums (although the best KISS obvs can't touch the best CT). One exception: KISS Alive is slightly lower than Budokan in my esteem.

completely on board w this, especially if we stretch it to include kiss' early years. their five-year run from '73 - '77 easily holds its own with cheap trick's golden years. and i dunno, hard for me to choose between alive and budokan (esp if i cheat and throw in alive II).

I guess if The Fall did not exist, I still wouldn't choose Cheap Trick.

If we can agree on nothing else in this thread, I think we can at least all get on board with the awesome badassery of driving around while listening to Live at Budokan and KISS Alive and Totale's Turns.

no, driving sucks as bad as these bands suck and kiss sucks even more

you just had to bring driving into it, didn't you deric

you know who sucks more, iatee?

kiss

your mom

^^^ I like the way she thinks

(Driving does suck, btw. I was postulating a hypothetical wherein a) I didn't hate driving and b) I had a musclecar.)

Who the fuck listens to the Fall when driving muscle cars?

"The "rule of three" is a principle in writing that suggests that things that come in threes are inherently funnier, more satisfying, or more effective than other numbers of things." -Wikipedia

I was postulating a hypothetical wherein a) I didn't hate driving and b) I had a musclecar.)

the musclecar runs on cow farts and fairy kisses, btw, and produces small quantities of delicious banana pudding as its only effluvium.

What's the best KISS album to start with? Destroyer?

I guess if The Fall did not exist, I still wouldn't choose Cheap Trick.

Ha, if you reverse the band names, this is how I feel.

xpost Ha, that's the only kind of muscle car I could imagine someone listening to the Fall in.

Start with KISS Alive. That was one of the two albums I wasn't facetiously referring to as 'badass'.

of the studio albums, i'd say start w the self-titled debut. not recorded anywhere near as well as destroyer, but it's their best album song for song. destroyer a close second.

deric's right that you can't really go wrong with kiss alive (and alive II).

euler, it seems we share a certain maternal mischeviousness

facetiously referring to as 'badass'

Ha, cool, I wasn't sure. Real people seem to like the Fall!

So musclecars synthesize cow farts into banana pudding? Am I hearing this right?

xpost

I do like the Fall! I just can't think of any Fall material that I would label 'muscle car-worthy badassery'. And I guess that concludes the unpacking and deflating of my half-formed joke.

http://www.two--four.net/Closet/AtlanticCity_1.JPG

The Fall, of course. Jesus Christ wtf is wrong with you people, Cheap Trick only has 4 good albums and The Fall have twenty.

^ making me feel better about going w cheap trick

well what did you expect from me, look at my DN.

approximately 12 NAGLs

Who the fuck listens to the Fall when driving muscle cars?

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, April 2, 2012 3:35 PM (3 hours ago)

Anybody with This Nation's Saving Grace and a muscle car.

i have a huge soft spot for 80s cheap trick because those were the albums my dad had; he'd play lap of luxury and the greatest hits album and i loved it all. later on, when my younger sister was born, my parents had a little ceremony with me where they said "your new baby sister wants to thank you for being so kind and welcoming to her, so she's gotten you a gift!" the gift was cheap trick's busted. i was super-impressed at the time, but in retrospect i should've chastised her for not dipping into the back catalog.

Anybody with This Nation's Saving Grace and a muscle car.

The British don't drive muscle cars.:P

Actually, xhuxk's writing about This Nation's Saving Grace is definitely classic. Maybe I should give it another listen some time.

(Playing Kiss now. So this is the one with "Strutter", which is promising.)

So this is the one with "Strutter", which is promising.

YES! the main reason i recommended it, one of my all-time favorite songs

Even in a sewing-machine car, TNSG is a great driving album. Especially "I Am Damo Suzuki."

different people drive differently

am sort of charmed by the attempted defense of the fall as muscle car rock

the fall are for muttering while driving a ratty couch across an unheated room

What's the best KISS album to start with? Destroyer?

xxxpost: Dressed to kill! i don't love it to pieces but there are great tunes and in a way it has a protopunk kinda vibe there somewhere. Destroyer is good but much more bombastic/produced and also not as solid songways.

the fall is my thread answer but there is no basis of comparison

The Fall, if only for still being an excellent, relevant group.

In all seriousness, when I drove across the country in like '88 I think, one of the moments I remember best was after the hell of driving through the middle of the US, descending into California at dusk, feeling the temperature drop, seeing civilization return, and blasting "LA" by the Fall on my purchased-just-for-the-trip loud-ass stereo system. The car was a gold Gran Torino from some time in the 70's and seated 8 comfortably...

"Kiss" is a damn-near perfect album to me. Strutter, Deuce, Cold Gin, Black Diamond...so much meaty riffy goodness. You can chew on that for days.

yes I know I'm supposed to use italics but I can't be bothered

^ knows whatov she speaks

The last time I heard Cheap Trick on the radio I stayed in the car to listen to the rest of the song after I arrived home.

I can't remember the last time I heard The Fall on the radio.

xxpost

I just figured you were shorthanding the full title, So-Called "Kiss" (Pssh...Whatever).

whatever, haircare

:)

I listened to Cheap Trick all the way home tonight, singing at the top of my lungs. My car must fucking hate my guts by now.

Weirdly only one of these bands has their music in a car commercial and that's the fall

Both of these bands are great and have like zero to do with each other

I love that's it's morphed, sort of, into a The Fall + Cheap Trick + Kiss appreciation thread.

The fall works pretty good as car music here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVnsmADFCIg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I don't know enough about the Fall to appreciate them fully, I'll admit. But I think I just kind of love them by virtue of that MES quote about Mumford and Sons

Southern girrrrrls-ah
They've got nothing to loooose-ah

Kiss are like the dead kennedys in that those bands have like 8 good songs

xpost

WITH HANDCLAPS

seriously, Cheap Trick are like the most perfect band to me in those moments

Mark E. Smith impersonations make the world a better place-ah.

the fall more like the fail amirite

I don't think any other band mentioned itt can beat the ferocity of the Budokan version of "ELO Kiddies".

cheap trick more like walmart fallapart fraudulent wetfart, amirite

^ this. Also, Tom Petersson has more strings on his bass than most bands have on all their guitars combined. More bass strings = more rock.

NO, NOT THAT. The "^this" was referring to ELO Kiddies.

it might be a passing fancy I'm really kinda feeling the Cold Gin riff at the moment (also cymbals!!!)....I don't know if Cheap Trick has that beat.

TOO LATE
xp

Then there's this, wherein Rick Nielsen proves he is the missing link between Masayuki Takayanagi and Jimmy Page:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwRkK7mNWEA

M@tt: common thread = Steve Albini is a rabid fan of both

xpost Tarfumes: omg yes I love that!!!

i like to imagine the opening credits of that 70s show with "the n.w.r.a." playing in the background instead

i cant answer this question

xp Yeah, isn't it great? I sent that to a friend who's a big Dylan and Cheap Trick fan; he'd never heard it, and freaked the fuck out.

It's not the same version on Sex/America/box set is it?

Nope, the version on the box is from a '76 club show in LA; the video is from an arena date where (I think) they're opening for Kiss, ironically enough.

I didn't think it was the same, sometimes when I'm in a crazy mood I wish there was an album just of like, 5 live versions of that song.

That would rule. If there's two released versions, I'll bet there's another 5 versions in their vault.

That's what I'm thinking!

Now. Does anyone have Robin Zander's number?

From what I understand, Bun is the archivist in the band. I guess that's how he justifies not going on the road with them.

well that just makes me like him even more. even if he doesn't tour.

I got to see him at a casino gig with them a few years back, that was good enough for me.

Are people trying to argue driving to The Fall is inferior? If you like music in a rock idiom and you like driving, any fucking thing is going to sound fun/kick ass/accompany well your driving. It's like arguing whether a Fall shirt or a Cheap Trick shirt goes better with your jeans. Your jeans go good with all your rock shirts, your driving goes good with all your rock albums.

xp I was (insanely) lucky enough to see them on the Heaven Tonight show at Metro in Chicago in 1998, from which Music For Hangovers was culled. Bun joined openers Local H for "He's a Whore" and totally schooled their drummer (who was good, but no Bun).

lol Local H

Repetition is a p great song to drive around to for what its worth

EVRY SONG is great to drive to if you like it.

Right

Wikipedia tells me "Totally Wired" was the Fall's 4th single. The Fall peaked with their 4th single. Cheap Trick made reasonably solid albums for the better part of a decade and occasionally still wrote a really good song after that decade. The choice is clear.

esp if you are into the self-conscious performative display of MAN I AM DRIVING TO THIS SONG
I was once did midnight deliveries of donuts for a year to over 200 gas stations every night, I have a lot to say on this subject
50,000 Fall Fans Can't Be Wrong kept me awake with abrasive vigor
Live at Budokan kept me awake with the stupid way he announces each song and sings like he's teaching a deaf kindergarten class + the poppy guitars

You made 200 donut deliveries per night? MAD RESPECT.

I concluded Mr. Bungle's first was the best for midnight driving

This was the thought of a sleep-deprived pot fiend who was into self-soncsiouc driving displays

i get the sense that non-fall ppl think the band is pretentious arty brit-shit but the fall have never struck me as remotely like that, they're as noisy and off-the-wall and deranged as rock'n'roll is supposed to be. i've got lots of love for cheap trick but ain't no way.

Anyway the answer is The Fall; whoever said it was strangely hard to listn to a whole Cheap Trick album was OTM. Though my ears perk up like a piegon hearing garbage fall to the ground if I hear the opneing notes of a Cheap Strick song on classic rock radio.

i think it's tough listening to an album by either in its entirety but the fall are an all-time fave and i like a couple of cheap trick records but only really love/every-so-often play one of them so, yeah, the fall

The Fall

I really dig the Fall, but my midwestern/Chicagoland bias prevents me from picking them over Cheap Trick. Also, they just swung a fuck of a lot harder than the Fall.

True stories: My mom bought me a Bananas magazine with a Cheap Trick centerfold in it when I was a kid. I had no idea who they were, so I spent a good long while trying to figure out exactly what sort of trick was being depicted.

I mean, a cheap one, obviously.

irl lols @ this

It's like arguing whether a Fall shirt or a Cheap Trick shirt goes better with your jeans.

the fall shirt definitely goes better with your jeans. the fall shirt is a threadbare button-down. it goes better with weak tea and scabs.

my mom once asked me what i wanted to do for my birthday. i said i wanted to go see cheap trick. she freaked out cuz she thought it was a porno movie.

Cheap Trick has one album I really like but the Fall has like a million albums with that one song I really like on repeat.

duh, totally fucked my "joke" back there. was supposed to start out "the cheap trick shirt definitely goes better with your jeans."

i am sick. i have an excuse.

THERE'S NO AVOIDING IT. SURRENDER.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDUoIflmZWE

Cheap Trick has one album I really like but the Fall has like a million albums with that one song I really like on repeat.

― fffv, Monday, April 2, 2012 11:17 PM (7 minutes ago)

If there was a midwestern Ramones, it was Cheap Trick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iziv9znHFY&feature=relmfu

The Fall peaked with their 4th single.

cannot believe somebody with your musical acumen would even think this, let alone say it.

eh, i lolled

oh, you're just enjoying how much this thread riles me up. not even gonna bother w/Mordy's comments except to say "Britney Spears fan lol".

and man I fuckin love Cheap Trick and have every album up to the 10" and have seen them in concert, but The Fall are one of the best bands in the world for me and I have no patience for naysayers. if you don't get them, the problem is you, pure and simple.

Fall lovers:

Where do I start to appreciate the Fall, song wise or an album?. I know next to nothing except MES says awesome things about bands that I loathe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myEwKD8PJlw

that's from a non-LP single, for LP length work it's hard to beat This Nation's Saving Grace.

Fall actually peaked with their fourth studio album (or maybe their first) (Slates was an EP, doesn't count); Cheap Trick peaked with their third (or maybe first). Cheap Trick pretty easy to ignore after 1980; Fall pretty easy ignore after 1985. But both of put out albums in the past few years (The Latest, Your Future Our Clutter) that were better than I would've predicted. Wonder who I'd pick.

Where do I start to appreciate the Fall, song wise or an album?. I know next to nothing except MES says awesome things about bands that I loathe.

― Peppermint Patty Hearst (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, April 2, 2012 9:04 PM

i started w the early singles comps, and that worked for me. 77 - Early Years - 79 (aka early fall & early singles) and palace of swords reversed. the former was my first fall LP, and it's pretty great. better yet the 80s-era comp 458489 A sides and its B sides companion. they were pretty pop-inclined and wide-ranging at that point.

xp Uh, left out a "to" and a "them" in there somewhere. Anyway, my heart says Cheap Trick, but my head says the Fall. Or maybe the other way around.

kinda difficult to recommend an entry point for the fall, such a varied discog and no consensus greatest album. I learned to never sell a fall album because I'd always end up buying it again when it "clicked" at a later date.

slates is an early EP with a high hit rate. perverted by language is my fave but can be a challenging starting point. palace of swords reversed and 50,000 fall fans can't be wrong are decent comps.

Fall pretty easy ignore after 1985

For me, there's a second peak where they made some really warm, pretty records, especially The Frenz Experiment and the ones from the early '90s.

some fall songs i like:

totally wired
no bulbs
rowche rumble
my new house
slang king
pay your rates
psycho mafia
vixen
cruiser's creek
mr pharmacist (cover)
how i wrote 'elastic man'
the man whose head expanded
gut of the quantifier
draygo's guilt
hit the north

also "cab it up", love that song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wf98skHVoQ

I'm about halfway through TNSG. Fuck, this is one annoying band. "Vixen" is the one with the woman singer? I think I liked that 'best' so far. I don't dislike this in a "this is bad" way as much as an "I don't get this yet" way, which usually tends to inspire a perverse will to try harder. (Sometimes I try to imagine that it's a Sonic Youth record with, um, a British singer and vaguely surf-ish guitar riffs, which actually sounds good when I type it.) I really should probably use my time to practise or something instead though.

xp I like the first three comps that contenderizer named, but I like Hex Enduction Hour, Live At The Witch Trials, and Hip Priest And Kamerads (a sort of comp in its own right) more. Don't get the people who'd settle for a Cheap Trick comp at all, though.

covers r cheating, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxWhoOxqPGA

I think the vocals are what I like least?

recent fall tune i like a lot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBZDk-OIMnM

excellent for playing super fucking loud while driving around in an ostentatious manner and with windows unfurled

I think the vocals are what I like least?

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, April 2, 2012 9:29 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, if there's a sticking point, that's gonna be it

a few more random selections

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZToNDehlInA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nJXTQEZwdw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeAKhtPXxf8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwRIOsu8SrU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHAMOumuL7w

Thank you guys, I have lots to study now!!!

Can I just

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CWf1FwwePw

I think the vocals are what I like least?

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, April 2, 2012 9:29 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, if there's a sticking point, that's gonna be it

― preternatural concepts concerning variances in sound and texture (contenderizer), Tuesday, April 3, 2012 12:33 AM (25 seconds ago)

ha, this is like "my least favorite part of jimi hendrix is his guitar playing"

Yeah, considering "The Fall" is simply a revolving cast around MES, his vocals do basically equal Hendrix's guitar playing.

considering "The Fall" is simply a revolving cast around MES

Well, didn't use to be that way.

MES vocals = hendrix guitar playing is one of the funniest gifts ILM has ever provided. MES lyrics arguably = hendrix on guitar. MES vocals = hendrix with one finger and one string, playing an endless cover of "louie louie".

MES vocals = hendrix guitar playing is one of the funniest gifts ILM has ever provided.

OTM

I'm not sure TNSG would have been a good entry point for me. Wonderful and Frightening World was the great transformative record, but the period right after that was a little one-note. Not that it lasted for long - as I said, I think they started having more texture and subtlety with Frenz.

Cheap Trick have probably had 1 tour in the US that played for more people than every US Fall gig.

The Fall have tons and tons of records of similar quality, where Cheap Trick even when they were at their pinnacle, I think had some miss moments.

They are just too divergent a groups to really accurately compare, as what each is good at the other one is kind of shite.

"Carry Bag Man" sounds like something from TNSG, but man, Wolstencroft ramped up their energy.

anybody who'd recommend TNSG as an entry point for pop fans in general is completely insane

yeah def at least listen to 'dragnet' and 'live at the witch trials' before giving up on em.

'wonderful and frightening' was my entry point and i remember alternating between thinking 'god, this is amazing' and 'jesus, these songs are all about three minutes too long' for about six months. then i heard 'dragnet' and it all fell into place.

For me it was "Totale's Turns" but, mm, is that a good "in"?

Yeah, why not.

The Fall are a really good covers band, as mentioned upthread. Here are a few of my faves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvl3zPtwa6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VdcMXVO_g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSNTIuwgAKs

Warning: the last video features a rather alarming gallery of pictures of MES.

alarming possibly redundant there.

i have issues w/ the fall and fall-partisanship but still the fall, obv

― The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan)

Not really a discussion I can get into because The Fall are hardwired into me (to put it simply - 'I do love the bad things about them'), tho I also like Cheap Trick. But just wanted to otm this post, because even as a v hardcore fan, I tire very very quickly of most Fall chat/writing (exude dreadful superiority), and think MES has long jumped the shark as a media person, tho not as an artist, even if the recent stuff is patchy. Will avoid trying to convince anyone of their excellence, particularly thru the not very helpful idea that you have to 'get' them - although this 'clicking' did happen to me - but it's patronising to say to people who don't like them. Almost tempted to say Cheap Trick just to troll myself.

I don't think it's patronising to suggest that they're a band you either "get" or don't. I'm not suggesting I or anyone else has any special insight because I like The Fall, just that people I know (and also on this board) seem to like pretty much the whole (or significant proportions) of their body or work or just don't like any of it.

I'm about halfway through TNSG. Fuck, this is one annoying band. "Vixen" is the one with the woman singer? I think I liked that 'best' so far. I don't dislike this in a "this is bad" way as much as an "I don't get this yet" way, which usually tends to inspire a perverse will to try harder. (Sometimes I try to imagine that it's a Sonic Youth record with, um, a British singer and vaguely surf-ish guitar riffs, which actually sounds good when I type it.) I really should probably use my time to practise or something instead though.

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, April 3, 2012 12:26 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

My opinion on them after trying TNSG for the first time was that it sounded like the B-52s robbed of everything that made the B-52s charming and exciting to listen to.

you don't get the fall, the fall get you maaan

This is the thing about picking an "accessible" album, too often it's like trying to access the rough end of town via a nice clean freeway.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Leeds_Irish_Centre_-_York_Road_-_geograph.org.uk_-_564100.jpg

^ last place i saw the fall play, pretty hostile, from what i remember it was a great gig. saw them again at some festival last year and left after 2 songs. it was so bad. i'm not a fall fanatic, i can probably name about ten songs.

'spoilt victorian child' is the current favorite, heard it on new years eve dropped in between some disco dancing music. the breakdown and SURPRISE BREAK works so well on the dancefloor.

For anyone who digs The Fall before 1990 but has never checked out more, please sample the two 90s comps "A World Bewitched" and "A Past Gone Mad". Now we just need an overview of the 00s...

Love all the passion for The Fall itt. I offer a Newcastle Brown to each and every one of my brothers and sisters in MES...

I'd go fot the 50000 Fall Fans comp; it does a p good job of spanning their whole career. The first disc has most of the great early singles and a bunch of the standout classic album tracks. I question the TNSG inclusions at the end (Spoilt Victorian Child, Cruisers Creek) I probably wouldve went with Couldn't Get Ahead or L.A. or Barmy (<-those songs, along with Paintwork and Damo Suzuki were, and still are, my faves from that album)

The second disc is post-1985 and tbh I think they kind of bungle it badly (no Bonkers in Phoenix, no 4 1/2 Inch, no Dr Bucks Letter) but its still somewhat useful. Imo the Fall's artistic resuscitation starts in full in '97, with Levitate. You can kind of hear that: the last four songs on Disc 2 feel like an upswing, like its gathering momentum for something. That something was the 00s, which turned out to be a GREAT decade for the Fall...

Anyways, this would probably be a good beginner's track for anyone trying to get into the Fall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIljbEJidv4

I bought 458489 A sides and gave it a spin a couple of times a year for several years before The Fall finally clicked with me.

I like some tracks on TNSG but can't really dig it on the whole. I guess it's a bridge between their earlier and later periods but def not where I'd recommend somebody to start, too lol 80s.

xp That's a really good comp. My fave off that one is this, IMO another good place to start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzivmOQWkVQ

It took me ten years to really get into the fall, but I'm glad it finally clicked. The album that finally sucked me in was Perverted by Language.

<i>^ this. Also, Tom Petersson has more strings on his bass than most bands have on all their guitars combined. More bass strings = more rock.

― Dancing with Mr. T (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, April 2, 2012 9:03 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink</i>

you'll love 311!

Cheap Trick were very good tonight. Lots of stuff off the first, third, fourth, and fifth albums. Maybe nothing off of the second album?

Can The Fall say that?

man legit warm fuzzies upon rewatching the Blindness Mitsubishi commercial

Cheap Trick were very good tonight. Lots of stuff off the first, third, fourth, and fifth albums. Maybe nothing off of the second album?

Can The Fall say that?

The Fall would never do that many old songs in a gig. You go to a Fall gig and you're going to pretty much get whatever their new album is, with a few old songs maybe sprinkled in.
And the old songs are going to sound completely different from whatever the original recording sounded like.

Sounds disappointing imo

Maybe nothing off of the second album?

And so does this.

The Fall is a band that people talk about way too much for my liking, considering how boring I find MES's music/persona to be, generally. Still, I'd rather people talk endlessly about The Fall than I would something I actively hate. So carry on.

The Fall are talked about a lot cos for the people who really like them it is weird , perverse , uncontrollable kind of love - one based around wordplay, esoteric references, failure, destruction, ambivalence, fire and strangeness - around every corner is another corner and at every brick wall there is a trap door. If ever the topic of the band comes up those in thrall are just are unable to stop themselves burbling and gibbering with excitement. That's how I feel anyway - quite different to other bands where I am able to control myself far better. This (ILM) is maybe the only place where you feel there is another band of people who might feel the same way - they are completely off most peoples radars otherwise and if they are on the radar but unloved then they will be despised. Until they click they will seem completely dull, all songs sound the same etc...and the allure of The Fall and the passion with which they are spoken of will seem totally baffling and ultimately annoying as many have implied up thread.

This is part of the appeal also - the strange devotion of those in love verses the ticked off bafflement of the poor underwhelmed hoarde.

Anyhow: The Fall.

I guess that previous post was like a guy at a party giving you the same opinion you have heard a hundred times before. Struggling to articulate the appeal of The Fall to naysayers one of their other enduring qualities.

I like the Fall, I was just drunkenly saying "I Just Saw Cheap Trick And They Were Great"

set list

Hello There
He's a Whore
Elo Kiddies
Just Got Back
On Top of the World
Ain't That a Shame
The House is Rockin'
Heaven Tonight
If You Want My Love
Need Your Love
That 70s Song
Stop This Game
I Know What I Want
The Flame
I Want You to Want Me
Dream Police
California Man
Surrender
Gonna Raise Hell
Goodnight

I guess "Hello There" and "I Want You to Want Me" are from the second album but they played the Budokan version.

"He's a Whore" was a fan request. I was disappointed by no "Southern Girls" or "Oh Candy" but they did a more hard rock radio type concert, probably because that's Houston's history. They've been varying the set list each night this tour.

In conclusion, Robin Zander has held up better than Mark E. Smith vocally and physically.

Excellent post, Picker of Hinkle. I share your view of The Fall, there are times when nothing else will do and all is right with the world when listening to MES. I find worthy songson every release, 30 albums on.

Still not sure I'd want a pint with the man. For starters, I can barely understand him when he speaks in interviews!

no doubt in my mind that if I ever was in the same room as MES I'd be terrified of him

I thought so too, but he's actually very polite and courteous in person.