Frank Ocean - Channel Orange (2012)

So yeah, let us anticipate. This guy is good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyCglfjMOa0

I have been a skeptic but that's really good.

yeah this is good... the second half of this is a better terius slow jam than terius himself has put out in a while

self-produced i assume?

john mayer plays the solo on this, btw

sure

lol xp

The horn accents on this are nice.

Am I a big fan because I am so stoked for this record or a "hater" because I fear there's no way he can top Nostalgia, Ultra?

Oh man, if he tops it...

fuck this is goooooood

this is actually okay!

i refuse to contribute to any press/discussion about this guy until and unless people listen to us about dawn richard though

not entirely sure yet whether this deserves a chuckle or nonplussed respect

the dwele / el-p meeting of minds i don't recall asking for

or dwel-p as i shall like to call it

lol

also like a tiny bit of vampire weekend/paul simon x gosling's drive along the transverse axis of poeticised mundanity sort of thing going on

haha what a funny song

¯\_(ツ)_; ¯

^ is it super annoying or cute that this is the genre tag on the mp3

it's pretty much the crucial core question with nu-r&b really

dude sang probably my single least favorite lyric of the past year so i'm sticking to my status as a non-believer who don't believe in anything

best part is the stevie impersonation at 3:35 appr

¯\_(ツ)_; ¯

^ is it super annoying or cute that this is the genre tag on the mp3

anyone who replies "cute" should just go and kill themselves tbh

relistening, the beat is great but the more i pay attention to the lyrics the more side-eye i give to it. HELLO EMPTY SIGNIFIERS OF ARTY ARTINESS. and he's still not a compelling vocal presence.

It's okay but it faffs around a bit.

which signifiers did you mean specifically lex?

I like it, don't love it. At least not yet.

i like this song

which lyric, some dude?

the one i was paraphrasing about "a non-believer who don't believe in anything"

I switched back and forth between which half I liked better. Now it's clearly the second half.

oh duh, sorry, end of a long day...

I feel about this the same way I feel about Stevie's "Superwoman." It's all about the change and the aftermath. In both cases, I tolerate the beginning to get to the switch. Plus, I guess I like self-pity.

Honestly, the thing that bugs me the most: that he says "air guitar" when there's an actual guitar playing.

I feel about this the same way I feel about Stevie's "Superwoman.

would have preferred if this sounded like Karyn White's "Superwoman."

i agree with lex that he is "still not a compelling vocal presence"

some dude made me want to start a "terrible lyrics that work within the song's context" but it would just end up being dominated by New Order and Beyonce

"still not a compelling vocal presence"

he's a gentle coaxer

Still keep hearing it as "boobies in my damn chain."

Me too! I like it like that tho.

haha yes

umm so twitter is saying he comes out as bi on this?

huge respect if so.

well damn

and Miguel hasn't :(

i'm not sure if it's just based on track he's written from a woman's perspective or something like that

either way lotta unfollowing going on right now :(

yeah: http://www.karencivil.com/2012/07/02/frank-ocean-opens-up-about-bisexuality-on-channel-orange-album/?utm_source=wordtwit&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wordtwit

He may yet reveal his orientation but this isn't enough

http://api.ning.com/files/eThHUhW7xHATXcamvm5WOklYxclgc7qQVtEXHkj-ljMurnPCYF3tipYhHmoBbxOSwULbca7pzVhQ1KhoOc1CqA__/coc.png

i'm not sure what to make of the fact that frank played the album for journalists in both NY & LA and no one caught onto any hint of bisexuality

because playbacks are awful affairs where you don't get to listen properly?

i only go to them if i don't have to write about the album immediately

i'm not sure what to make of the fact that frank played the album for journalists in both NY & LA and no one caught onto any hint of bisexuality

― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 3 July 2012 00:30 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

yyyeah i didnt want to come out and say max from 1xtra might not be the sharpest tool in the box but...

yeah i'm not believing this until there's a better source

that said, WS frank ocean he's totally my type

just sayin

lol @ twitter beef with Chris Brown btw

if true, would that mean he has dicks in his damn chain as well as boobies?

I think boobies in his damn chain signify "topic for further research."

http://i.imgur.com/fn04r.png

How's this for a source? Direct from the man's tumblr.

Better source: his tumblr - http://frankocean.tumblr.com/post/26473798723

But more important than him coming out, which is definitely a big deal, don't get me wrong? How gorgeous a piece of writing that is. This isn't some pro forma confirmation, and it's not some sort of a 'after much thought, i have decided it's important to provide a good example for the kids' or whatever a la anderson cooper or quinto or whoever. no whiff of PR about this.

it's a stunning description not just of the fact of his sexuality but the process of discovery, and a really gracious, sincere thank you to his first love.

Anyway. Mad props. Was already curious to hear what the album would be, more curious now.

Yeah, it can't be understated how beautifully he conveyed this.

Text, for those who can't easily read images right now:

"what i’m about to post is for anyone who cares to read. it was intended to fill the thank you’s section in my album credits, but with all the rumors going round.. i figured it’d be good to clarify..

Whoever you are, wherever you are, I’m beginning to think we’re a lot alike. Human beings spinning on blackness. All wanting to be seen, touched, heard, paid attention to. My loved ones are everything to me here. In the last year or 3 I’ve screamed at my creator. Screamed at clouds in the sky. For some explanation. Mercy maybe. For peace of mind to rain like manna somehow. 4 summers ago, I met somebody. I was 19 years old. He was too. We spent that summer, and the summer after, together. Everyday almost. And on the days we were together, time would glide. Most of the day I’d see him, and his smile. I’d hear his conversation and his silence … until it was time to sleep. Sleep I would often share with him. By the time I realized I was in love, it was malignant. It was hopeless. There was no escaping, no negotiation with the feeling. No choice. It was my first love, it changed my life. Back then, my mind would wander to the women I had been with, the ones I cared for and thought I was in love with. I reminisced about the sentimental songs I enjoyed when I was a teenager … the ones I played when I experienced a girlfriend fo rthe first time. I realized they were written in a language I did not yet speak. I realized too much, too quickly. Imagine being thrown from a plane. I wasn’t in a plane though. I was in a Nissan Maxima, the same car I packed up with bags and drove to Los Angeles in. I sat there and told my friend how I felt. I wept as the words left my mouth. I grieved for them, knowing I could never take them back for myself. He patted my back. He said kind things. He did his best. But he wouldn’t admit the same. He had to go back inside soon. It was late and his girlfriend was waiting for him upstairs. He wouldn’t tell me the truth about his feelings for me for another 3 years. I felt like I’d only imagined reciprocity for years. Now imagine being thrown from a cliff. No, I wasn’t on a cliff. I was still in my car telling myself it was gonna be fine and to take deep breaths. I took the breaths and carried on. I kept up a peculiar friendship with him because I couldn’t imagine keeping up my life without him. I struggled to master myself and my emotions. I wasn’t always successful.

The dance went on … I kept the rhythm for several summers after. It’s winter now. I’m typing this on a plane back to Los Angeles from New Orleans. I flew home for another marred Christmas. I have a windowseat. It’s December 27, 2011. By now I’ve written two albums, this being the second. I wrote to keep myself busy and sane. I wanted to create worlds that were rosier than mine. I tried to channel overwhelming emotions. I’m surprised at how far all of it has taken me. Before writing this I’d told some people my story. I’m sure these people kept me alive; kept me save … sincerely, these are the folks I wanna thank from the floor of my heart. Everyone of you knows who you are … great humans, probably angels. I don’t know what happens now, and that’s alrite. I don’t have any secrets I need kept anymore. There’s probably some small shit still, but you know what I mean. I was never alone, as much as I felt like it … as much as I still do sometimes. I never was. I don’t think I ever could be. Thanks. To my first love. I’m grateful for you. Grateful that even though it wasn’t what I hoped for and even though it was never enough, it was. Some things never are … and we were. I won’t forget you. I won’t forget the summer. I’ll remember who I was when I met you. I’ll remember who you were and how we’ve both changed and stayed the same. I’ve never had more respect for life and living than I have right now. Maybe it takes a near death experience to feel alive. Thanks. To my mother, you raised me strong. I know I’m only braved because you were first … so thank you. All of you. For everything good. I feel like a free man. If I listen closely … I can hear the sky falling too.

-Frank"

xp understated overstated

Like.... this sentence alone: " By the time I realized I was in love, it was malignant. It was hopeless. There was no escaping, no negotiation with the feeling. No choice. It was my first love, it changed my life" destroys me, and the way he manages to convey in the gaps between the sentences the human cost of closets and shame.

I wrote this on twitter already, but it's 2012. From now on, if we can dispense with the PR managed coming outs and either have a simple not-a-big-deal "I'm queer" or - if people want to - an actual sense of who people are as people, that would be great.

Because "I'm gay" or "I'm bi" or whatever tells you very very little about who a person is, but this tells you a hell of a lot.

I cannot wait until I try to talk about this at work tomorrow only to have nobody at work know who I'm talking about.

that is amazing

Is it distasteful to rank something as the best coming out ever?

total side note - i thought pyramids was the lead single and hadn't heard thinkin bout you which is stunnnnnning.

Ugh, half the comments on his fb page are gross. I expect it will only get worse over the next couple days.

(Also, people are cooking up theories that the "he/him" is maybe a car or music or his inner self.)

raw as hell

yeah, well.

you know what? half of the comments are gross and a quarter of them are "i'll support him anyway" but a quarter of them are genuinely supportive and proud and moved and those are coming from all manner of different sorts of people.

and Angel Haze (queer female rapper A++ awesome) went to town on bigoted douchebags on her twitter in defence of him and Earl Sweatshirt tweeted "proud of Frank" so i'm just soaking in the good vibes of positivity and ignoring the assholes.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6mk5iBZdP1qav783o1_1280.png

damn i didn't know angel haze was queer

i have no mind to care about bigots

she's bi, I think?

a few of the tracks that were more obviously about picking up girls didn't end up on King, which is the 'official' mixtape that cherrypicks the best from Altered Ego and No Greater Love but 'Make It Raee'n' is a fairly explicit voracious account of stealing dudes' girlfriends and getting them off repeatedly. Her 'Bitches on My Dick' freestyle is also awesome and I know Rev is a fan.

Those are both on 'Altered Ego'.

Make It Raeen opens with: "This is for them girrrrrls that / like them other girrrrrls back'

But yeah, her raps tend towards the intellectual, spiritual and viscerally emotional more often than the sexual, and her aggressive side is more battle raps than sex raps, so it's not like it's been central.

In the middle of her absolutely emotionally devastating remix of Jamie Foxx's Fall For Your Type, though she does amusingly say "I'll be the gun / You be my holster" but I usually don't have time to pick up on the double entendre because i'm too busy pretending not to cry.

Actually, Tyler's response might win the whole thing: https://twitter.com/fucktyler/status/220409501487079424

"My Big Brother Finally Fucking Did That. Proud Of That N***** Cause I Know That Shit Is Difficult Or Whatever. Anyway. Im A Toilet."

"Im A Toilet" = classic

Anyway, Frank's statement is an incredible thing. Wow.

and Tyler a quarter of an hour later:

"AY BITCHES, IMA START SINGING SO LIKE, ALL OF FRANKS BITCHES CAN YOU COME OVER HERE AND LIKE HOLLA AT YA BOY"

lol

Tyler is a dick, but he's not always unfunny.

Wow, yeah, that is an incredible piece of writing. Generally, I hate when coming out is described as "brave" but I think it's an apt description here. Not looking forward to the backlash from certain people (I've already seen a lot of annoying comments on twitter on fbook), but yeah... amazing. Shout out to Frank Ocean, for real.

I'm just now hearing "Thinkin Bout You" tonight for the first time, and it's like an atom bomb paired with his letter.

(also, the video is v good)

Lots of people looking for the story to mean something else, it seems - like he's talking about himself, his music, his car, God.

But Tyler and Earl's reactions seem to confirm he's talking about his sexuality, don't they?

But Tyler and Earl's reactions seem to confirm he's talking about his sexuality, don't they?

I'd say so.

Um. Yes.

As does the fact that he published it early to respond to rumours that had been going around for a few days, and the fact that if he fell in love with his music or God or his car, it is highly unlikely that any of those things would have a girlfriend and thus be unable to reciprocate his love.

Alright man, I agree. I'm not questioning what he's saying myself. Just taking it all in, thinking out loud, etc.

yeah, fair. sorry! wasn't peeved at you.

trying to wrap my mind around how people on the internet read that and think "this is a dude passionately declaring his love for his car."

sigh.

Easy. People now find themselves in the awkward position of having previously praised someone they're now afraid of.

man. i have such a hard time wrapping my head around that. even for the three years of undergrad i spent closeted, when i was on some level terrified of out gay dudes, i was still friends with a bunch of them.

the weirdest for me have been the comments saying "i still respect the guy and like his music but won't be able to relate to the songs as much now that i know they're written about dudes"

which... half of them are totally neutral songs? idgi.

I'm not saying homophobia (either latent or aggressive) is okay, but I know where it comes from. Be it religion-inspired or the macho culture that permeates middle and lower class (and, hell, upper class) male youth, an extra jolt of assured heterosexuality is earned every time a joke or slam is made against anything different.

Lots of people grow out of religion and everybody grows out of youth, but a lot of that stuff hangs around for some and keeps getting passed on.

Sure. I didn't mean whence homophobia? I meant like - how radically altered can someone's experience of a song they previously loved be? If they've given a song their own meaning and invested their feelings and experiences into it, the intent of Ocean in writing it is meaningless.

If I had to identify with the singer of songs I love to take something out of them, I wouldn't have that many favourite songs, given the lack of gay dudes. There are tons of love songs that click with me where I just mentally gender flip either the performer or the audience or where i mediate the sentiments of the song through me or whatever and I don't think it's a way of listening specific to queers. Like, surely straight guys like love songs by women sometimes and don't just view themselves as the intended recipient?

I can't really engage in that whole discussion because of how little I pay attention to lyrics in general, and even less in the realm of love songs (which typically only mean anything to me when I'm either falling for or getting over a girl). But yeah, I guess for some people it's a very big deal.

I imagine for these people it's like watching all six seasons of LOST only to find out they'd died and were going to heaven, and then they look back on all six seasons and get all FUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOU.

nothing really to add here, just that the thunking literalism of people saying I CAN'T RELATE is dismaying, & the guy's thank you notes are really moving. so psyched for this record.

It reminds me of youtube comments I once read about Smalltown Boy written by people who grew up loving the song and only now found out what it's about, thus proceeding to actually blame Jimmy Somerville for ruining one of their favourite songs.

Like, how fucking insecure are you that you not only have to dissociate yourself from it but also that person, as if they're somehow outside their own lives and work and at fault for ruining it by infecting it with their sexuality.

nothing really to add here, just that the thunking literalism of people saying I CAN'T RELATE is dismaying, & the guy's thank you notes are really moving.

^^

i don't have a lot invested in Ocean as an artist or w/e but that post was gorgeously written

(and i find it pretty upsetting to think that people don't believe in universals of human emotion, bcz i am a massive hippy)

what a terrifically moving piece of writing. jesus.

where are the people saying they can't relate? checked his facebook page and the comments were 90% positive.

Speech Debelle ‏@speechdebelle
Frank Ocean didn't "come out", he just let us in. Letting people in is what a true artist does. He is honest and brave.

trying to repress the hey i'll quote a stupid thing i read on the internet urge itt, because that there are people missing the point probably doesn't need to trample into this otherwise nice moment. but i was flicking through the thread on the kanyetothe forum, & it's split between "who cares", which is obviously fine, & "i hope he doesn't write a song about a guy".
xp

yeah just trying to ascertain whether that kind of response is significantly large or just, like, mouth breathers on twitter and that kanye forum

yeah i think so. there isn't like a dismayed sasha frere jones thinkpiece about the liner notes or anything. probably encouraging if facebook is relatively normal though.

" By the time I realized I was in love, it was malignant. It was hopeless. There was no escaping, no negotiation with the feeling. No choice. It was my first love, it changed my life"

lots of know how liberating and horrifying that first love was

how many hours has this news been out there for there to even be 'thinkpieces'

just kidding around

right ok

They'll be along in a minute.

true

is this the most high profile coming out (of some sort) in the history of rap/r&b?

hmmm probably

assuming he has a profile

i couldn't think of anything else. obviously, it's not a long list.

for a dude to come out -- even as bi, if that's what it is -- w/in a year of guesting on a kanye/jay-z album is pretty remarkable

before this, the most notable gay hip-hop/r&b artist was............ latifah? and she's not even out. missy? her either.

i couldn't even name a male, but maybe someone's slipping my mind

Jermaine Stewart?

luther is the biggest who "everyone knew" but thats obv not the same

for a second there i thought you meant campbell and i was all "wait, what?"

deep cover

meshell ndegéocello? i don't know whether she was out from the start, i assume so

For a second there I thought you meant Tevin Campbell

and why not

OMG is Missy gay?? :-D

The idea of all of her sex raps being abt women makes me super giddy

Is there anyone officially out besides Syd?

Oh and if we're still counting Nina Sky as R&B as opposed to pop, one of them is married to a woman, but that only happened post-fame.

I can't think of any successful out female rappers. Latifah's still not really out. Danced around it with those comments at her Pride concert, but denied it after the fact. (Didn't deny being gay. Just said that she wasn't coming out. Kind of masterful non-denial denial)

wasn't that Vandross' approach too?

Latifah spent about six minutes singing "heal me, Jesus heal me" over and over again in Joyful Noise. She ain't never coming out.

Hilariously enough a lot of the reaction I've seen on twitter today is basically "Good for him! When are Ne-Yo and Miguel coming out?" and I can't decide whether those comments are supposed to be vaguely homophobic or if it's just generally accepted wisdom that both of them are in the closet.

xp I am sorta stunned that you would even know that

Speech Debelle ‏@speechdebelle
Frank Ocean didn't "come out", he just let us in. Letting people in is what a true artist does. He is honest and brave.

― gonna send him to outer space, to hug another face (NickB), Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:23 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ya good on him, well done

latifahs not really in the rap game anymore

Hilariously enough a lot of the reaction I've seen on twitter today is basically "Good for him! When are Ne-Yo and Miguel coming out?" and I can't decide whether those comments are supposed to be vaguely homophobic or if it's just generally accepted wisdom that both of them are in the closet

no word about Kanye?

Brenton Duvall‏@BrentonRules

I'm definitely takin the day off from twitter to avoid the frank ocean comments and the People acting like they've always loved odd future

the Twitter feed is hilarious

Looooool so that song about intercourse in the garden that I would sing along to was potentially about a guy? Oh Frank Ocean you troll!

please tell me he actually sings the words "intercourse in the garden"

The idea of all of her sex raps being abt women makes me super giddy

missy's had enough lyrics not just specifically about men but male genitalia that her coming out as a lesbian (as opposed to bi) would actually be kinda "wha?" Not in an "OH MY GOD I CAN NEVER LISTEN TO YOUR SONG ABOUT LICKING THE MAGIC STICK AGAIN" way but in a "why did you bother singing about licking magic sticks then" way.

yeah i don't know where the missy speculation ever really came from other than that she doesn't look super-feminine

Maybe the elephant sample in "Work It" refers to a clit/strap-on/bosom?

wish people would remember that bisexuality exists

have you missed what this discussion on the Frank Ocean thread is actually about

he meant re: missy, i think.

there is an element of suspicion due to non-femininity in the missy rumors but idk i always got the sense that the rumors were some industry "secrets" finally seeping out into the public -- that may be totally false tho

also did she ever have a relationship with a man that was known to the public? that's a genuine question btw, i can't think of any but i may be forgetting something obvious

http://www.ballerstatus.com/2011/03/18/keri-hilson-missy-elliott-rebuke-lesbian-relationship-rumor/#.T_RY1lJ-iCQ

the keri/missy rumor was a fantasy keri had after timbaland told her she'd never be the black swan

ha i love how they handled that (xpost)

lol croup

A little off topic now, but wow, that was a beautiful statement. I'm glad he wrote about his personal experience. A friend of mine confessed his love for me when I was 18 and was his coming out moment, but I just sorta blew it off... reading this makes me wonder if this was something like how he felt. I never really got it, I guess.

xp Ha ha

ok this one was *almost* official i guess

http://lezgetreal.com/2010/06/pictures-of-missy-elliot-and-her-girlfriend/

that's saraya, her GF from a couple years back

Statement from Russell Simmons:
http://www.thestoolpigeon.co.uk/features/news-russell-simmons-statement-frank-ocean-sexual-orientation.html

smh @ russell simmons releasing a statement

btw...BASEDGOD WAS RIGHT

well whatever it means i do think it's interesting to hear from his label boss who has also been lisping, smashing/marrying models, and working in hip hop for 2-3 decades (xpost)

given that Nicki is maybe more famous than Missy at this point and has had way more sexual lyrics explicitly about women and addressed bisexuality in interviews w/ gay publications etc. i'm still not sure why Missy dominates these kinds of conversations so much other than that one has a tomboy vibe and one doesn't.

Man, you know Russell Simmons. He'd release a statement if Frank Ocean had found a dollar bill on the street.

Wait, Nicki Minaj doesn't have a tomboy vibe?

she definitely doesn't have a tomboy wardrobe

wait, frank ocean found a dollar on the street?

happy 4th of july to frank ocean!

frank's mom https://twitter.com/katonya/status/220389543835205633

her tweet at @FrankOceanFans makes me wonder if there's a faction of people out there calling themselves TEAM FREEZY

http://allhiphop.com/2012/07/04/singer-frank-ocean-reveals-his-first-love-was-a-man/

i agree w/ the publicity stunt thesis

i don't think doing something with publicity in mind precludes honest, heartfelt or well-expressed sentiments. isn't the thing he posted in the liner notes, anyway?

yes plz lets all give credence to a post on allhiphop.com and a co-sign by "cock chirea"

looking forward to even more in-depth headscratching over the sexual politics of Odd Future

of course, this is awes btw way to go Frank

lol illseed still exists, i used to read his bullshit like 10 years ago before there were rap blogs

this is great

and just to go back to the car thesis, how, even metaphorically, would a car not be able to tell you it loved you and then go upstairs to its girlfriend?

ask sissymanwhore (NSFW)

lol

is this the most famous coming out of a young famous person ever? i know that old/er celeb types have done it but.. nothing springs to mind like this.
Will Young in the UK i guess..

Latifah spent about six minutes singing "heal me, Jesus heal me" over and over again in Joyful Noise. She ain't never coming out.

― old people are made of poop (Eric H.), Wednesday, 4 July 2012 15:12 (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xp I am sorta stunned that you would even know that

― Natalie Portmanteau (Stevie D(eux)), Wednesday, 4 July 2012 15:13 (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ha, stevie otm. i am super curious about this movie, i think it would be a litmus test of my man i'd watch dolly parton in anything! attitude

is this the most famous coming out of a young famous person ever? i know that old/er celeb types have done it but.. nothing springs to mind like this.
Will Young in the UK i guess..

― piscesx, Wednesday, July 4, 2012 1:22 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

lol what

there have been a TON outside of rap/r&b

really? young folk? i guess so; not many in the uk i can think of. i mean famous or gonna-be-stars or celeb types.

i guess it depends what your definition of 'young' is, but Lance Bass and Adam Lambert came to mind and were both 27 (and way way more famous) when they came out

i was going to say elijah wood but apparently i imagined it

haha

adam was "i'll let my gay-as-all-fuck aesthetic speak for itself" from the get-go, and lance bass was in forced semi-retirement when he came out, so while "most famous" is a stretch, "nothing springs to mind like this" still rings true.

idk. zack quinto and homie from glee came out and are much more famous than frank ocean.

I mean neither of those guys wrote a blog post but they're in the same category

who's the homie from glee

chris colfer

Chris Colfer?

doh, xp

quinto i think of more in the anderson cooper "i politely ignored the talk about my sexuality to focus on my work until i realized i was a celebrity out in every way except for public acknowledgment" dept, if people were buzzing about frank ocean on that level i had no idea

and colfer is pretty obviously in the adam lambert one

frank ocean is not famous, hell get more burn off this than everything else hes done to date

he's bon iver famous

dont know that iver heard of him

i'm pretty sure colfer was already out before he was famous too, i assumed "homie from glee" had to be referring to someone else

i guess this is kind of close to amber heard coming out, someone whose career is in an almost vertical rise potentially alienating a fanbase, and i don't really want to play "whose coming out is the most brave" or anything, just acknowledge that the path ocean's taking is pretty atypical and brave even with these precedents.

frank's situation is certainly unique in that there were never any rumors about his sexuality and he's probably the most notable contemporary black male musician to come out (to whatever extent he did) but as far as piscesx's question of if he's the most famous young person to ever come out, the answer is no.

colfer & quinto were both suspected to be gay but they both "came out" publicly long before it got to clay aiken/anderson cooper levels of "c'mon dude"

lol also this dude apparently http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/paul-iacono-gay-coming-out-interview-_n_1414737.html#s411847&title=Chris_Colfer_2009

yeah, was going to say some of you are overestimating how visible Frank Ocean is in the whole scheme of things

if i'm fakin' then i'm clay aiken

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/04/a-musician-and-a-critic-make-some-points-about-love/?ref=arts

I think maybe it matters more inside the hip hop/R&B world, where everyone knows who Frank Ocean is, than it does to the wider public, but that's fine - that's where its impact could be most significant.

yeah, was going to say some of you are overestimating how visible Frank Ocean is in the whole scheme of things

yeah that's why I made that profile crack a while ago. He gained an extra five figures in sales for his next albums though.

i think there should be some sub-category of famousness/visibility that considers how topical or hot or w/e the guy is, though; it's that he's ascendant, like is affiliated with a couple of waves of newish music and featuring on other people's really big records. like i'm sure his record is on every broadsheet newspaper's inclusive list of hip 2012 records. he might not be that famous but it's an extra dimension to be sorta zeitgeisty at the same time. idk what point i'm specifically directing this at, it just seemed semi-relevant.

i think the publicity stunt thing is crazy, also. if we take it a step further than who-has-this-happened-with-before, i don't think there's a significant enough track record of coming out really improving somebody's job prospects for this to be like a sensible gamble.

reminds me a bit of Bowie in the early seventies, just as he was establishing a major profile. He Got It Out of the Way and watched as it helped his notoriety for a few years.

I'm speaking only of career moves though. Pretty obvious now -- then too if you looked close enough -- that Bowie did it for the most cyincal of reasons. Ocean looks like it's been chewing away at him, by contrast.

I think maybe it matters more inside the hip hop/R&B world, where everyone knows who Frank Ocean is, than it does to the wider public, but that's fine - that's where its impact could be most significant.

― Get wolves (DL), Wednesday, July 4, 2012 10:55 AM Bookmark

otm

Except for (sorta kinda) Bowie, has there ever been an example of someone selling more records by coming out? It seems to me that he risks losing more listeners than he gains with this, despite the comforts of glowing NYT and NPR coverage. I'm sure more journalists want to write about him now but do more people actually want to buy his album? (Which is apparently incredible BTW)

i don't think there's a significant enough track record of coming out really improving somebody's job prospects

Some people blame the fall of Ellen's 90s sitcom on her coming out. That's probably partially true, but it actually coincided with her show getting less funny.

hope frank doesn't start singing worse

Does that make Michael Stipe the alt-rock Ellen?

lol probably

or the alt-rock Elton

As far as r&b singers, does Johnny Mathis count? Probably not, but he came out in 82, received death threats then went back in for a couple more decades. Then you have someone like Rahsaan Patterson who was never really closeted to begin with.

i think the publicity stunt thing is crazy, also. if we take it a step further than who-has-this-happened-with-before, i don't think there's a significant enough track record of coming out really improving somebody's job prospects for this to be like a sensible gamble.

― blossom smulch (schlump), Wednesday, July 4, 2012 1:58 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ya from a career standpoint i wouldntve advised this, from a being a human perspective its great tho

lol I just learned right now that Johnny Mathis is out. Of course, this probably says more about how little I pay attention to Johnny Mathis than it does anything else.

pretty sure Beyonce will still request songs -- as long as the album goes multiplatinum, that is.

Maybe Youtube comments are an augury of what to expect...

FUCK THIS FAG....Why tha fuck would i listen to another nigga sing about another nigga...THE HELL WIT FAGS AND SUPPORTERS
chakrasmash 3 minutes ago

it's all been said, but frank's statement is beautiful and everyone should listen to altered ego (at least once)

On Saturday morning I sat at the dining room table in Frank Ocean’s Los Angeles home and, for about three hours, spoke with him about love.

It’s the type of thing that, if you’ve spent time with his music, songs he writes for others and songs he sings himself, you can’t help but do.

lol "once you've heard his music, it's impossible to not end up in his house talking to him"

Thank you for that illuminating c&p, Spectrum

i'd sorta forgot Bowie did it oddly enough. where did he do it? in a big-time interview? i mean.. he was married and all i'm guessing at the time too.

Maybe Youtube comments are an augury of what to expect...

this is even generally speaking the stupidest statement i've ever read

Well hurrr, that was the point.

Bowie declared himself gay in an interview with Melody Maker in 72

xp Actually, Stipe is an interesting example because he didn't become known as "gay rock star Michael Stipe". His sexuality wasn't even mentioned in some of the REM obits. I guess alt-rock is used to gay musicians and by the time he came out his mainstream star had dipped.

why is this turning into a TV Tropes entry for gay musicians

Because piscesx asked a question. Forgive me for not knowing what TV Tropes is.

lucky you

good for him.

Gonna be another to chime in that the liner notes are beautiful. Hope all goes well for him, he seems like a good dude and could turn into a v good songwriter.

he already is

that russel simmons statement is really dope imo

i've been feeling so happy about this all day

Yes, of course
I remember, how could I forget?
How you feel?
And though you were my first time
A new feel
It won't ever get old, not in my soul
Not in my spirit, keep it alive
We'll go down this road
'Til it turns from color to black and white

this is great

times profile: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/arts/music/frank-oceans-channel-orange.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all

this story is currently the most read article on bbc news

really? young folk? i guess so; not many in the uk i can think of. i mean famous or gonna-be-stars or celeb types.

There is of course a 19 year old lesbian in the current top 5 of the uk - courtney rumbould of stooshe. She's no Frank Ocean but this has passed without much comment or fanfare. I don't think we're that fussed over here.

Courtney Rumbould of StooShe is fucking awesome, tho. Just as a total side note.

But also, the UK doesn't have quite the same weird relationship with fundamentalist religion and homosexuality as America. In the UK, the Conservative Party is in favour of same-sex marriage. In America, the Republicans are, for the most part, at the beck and call of the religious right and cure-the-gays proponents.

stooshe are unpardonable beasts from the depths of hell

has jessie j weighed in, i wonder?

Courtney Rumbould of StooShe is fucking awesome, tho.

?!?!

i feel confused that a non-britisher has cause to even think about stooshe let alone think...this about them. i thought they were a joke when i first heard them. still kind of do.

i like em

Yeah, me too

they're probably quite nice people but good god do they ever make a grotesque racket

a baleful enough example of the brit desire for self-deprecating-to-the-point-of-total-devaluation "light entertainment" to turn one positively lexish

This is kinda bizarre but amazing in a way:

http://www.stooshe.com/agony-aunt.htm

On topic, I never thought I'd find myself thinking "Speech Debelle OTM", and I've already noticed a lot of people on my Facebook/Twitter who are taking notice of Ocean because of this, purely because they have strong interests/beliefs in LGBT issues.

I never thought I'd find myself thinking "Speech Debelle OTM"

^ this

lol "once you've heard his music, it's impossible to not end up in his house talking to him"

dying @ this

hahaha ya

the first thing that happens after you listen to frank ocean is your phone rings. a voice will say: you have 1 week.

http://www.vladtv.com/images/g_blog_image/110499.jpg

some of the well-meaning responses to this are pretty smh

it's weird that there seems to be a general sense that this is some sort of brilliant marketing thing which seems deeply counterintuitive for someone as on the rise as ocean

i think it'll be good for him in the long run. a year ago there might have been more 'at risk' when "Novacane" was climbing the charts, but after that kinda stalled and none of his other songs hit remotely as big, Def Jam gave him a release date and let him drop a 10-minute single so it seems they decided he's not really a radio artist, and if there's not some attempt at crossover appeal something like this can only intensify his cult/critical following.

Good discussion in this Ta-Nehisi Coates post.

Just heard "Thinking Bout You" on the radio last night.

some dude otm - this doesn't hurt Frank because he's not Trey Songz.

nostalgia ultra was probably my favorite album of the year. happy for him.

Frank's twitter timeline is really depressing right now

https://twitter.com/#!/Frank_Ocean_

that's not frank's twitter

https://twitter.com/#!/frank_ocean

"parody account"

it's weird that there seems to be a general sense that this is some sort of brilliant marketing thing which seems deeply counterintuitive for someone as on the rise as ocean

i don't know that it's "brilliant" but making it a point to (sort of?) come out and associate yourself with the feelgood LET LOVE RINNGG blah blah homo camp is inherently going to be a marketing tactic as well no matter how earnest at this point.

the feelgood LET LOVE RINNGG blah blah homo camp

wtf

yeah i don't agree w/ any of that

maybe now that he's being more honest and transparent with the public he might consider performing under his birth name, "frank ocean" really is just the corniest stage name imo

i think that's an incredibly cynical read of the situation. i also don't think that theory is supported by what actually happened.

al, i think he legally changed his name to "frank ocean"

so it's not marketing, it didn't get his name out there, people aren't talking about him more than before?

al, i think he legally changed his name to "frank ocean"

― J0rdan S., Thursday, July 5, 2012 4:26 PM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark

well that makes it even sadder. i said 'birth name' anyway though.

what's the endpoint of that argument? he really should have stayed closeted, you know, true to the music, no gimmicks...

xp well i like the name frank ocean fwiw.

so it's not marketing, it didn't get his name out there, people aren't talking about him more than before?

― fauxmarc, Thursday, July 5, 2012 4:26 PM (10 seconds ago) Bookmark

alright, so what isn't marketing?

if my name was "lonny breaux" i would probably search for a stage name, too

why? i mean besides that people might struggle to pronounce the last name.

people being all eye-rolly fake-industry types talking about this as a brilliant marketing move, could, conceivably, be half-right on some level, but are still being assholes

oceans are pretty gangster imo

c'mon s1ocki we wouldn't even KNOW you're canadian if you weren't blatantly using it to further your career

frank giant squids down there

it's not an argument on my end, not saying he shouldn't have done it, he can do whatever he wants - i'm just stating an aspect of what happened that people are apparently opposed to believing, which is fine.

what isn't marketing? water gun fights by the pool, baking a cheesecake, there are a lot of options, but i'm not sure what good the answers to that are for.

gonna change my last name to maple

the headband is definitely not marketing, he was born with that thing.

so sick and tired of the Canadian agenda

like, I don't mind that Seth Rogan is Canadian but does he have to keep stuffing it under my toque

i'm just stating an aspect of what happened that people are apparently opposed to believing, which is fine.

this is pretty distorted. i don't think anyone is denying that his revelation may result in more of his albums being sold, but your initial post insinuated that it his decision to "come out" was (partly?) driven by marketing. and yeah, i don't believe that.

pierre maple

it will help him market an album that includes love songs that refer to its subject by a male pronoun. but, y'know, art before commerce.

as someone who never had go through something like hiding one's sexual identity and then come out about it, i'm certainly not going to monday morning quarterback how or why someone else's decision was made.

franc mer

it's not an argument on my end, not saying he shouldn't have done it, he can do whatever he wants - i'm just stating an aspect of what happened that people are apparently opposed to believing, which is fine.

huh?

i think you guys are willfully misreading the tone of the phrase "the feelgood LET LOVE RINNGG blah blah homo camp"

I invite FOXmarc to visit the gay thread anytime to watch how jolly this Lenny Kravitz homo camp can be in action.

i think you guys are willfully misreading the tone of the phrase "the feelgood LET LOVE RINNGG blah blah homo camp"

― some dude, Thursday, July 5, 2012 4:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

in what way?

also the phrase "marketing tactic"

now you're REALLY misreading my sarcastic tone, but not willfully (xpost)

A cicerone shouldn't overstep his (putatively) potable ambit, I guess. That's what I take from the indignant diorama Frank's orientation-teratism has metastatized from his extended mishpocha, from Speech to Lil B the now-debased. Prejudice sucks. Sure, all moral panics are eventually fungible, and uxorious gazumping has a dollar value when cathected out to the masses. Shit sells. But if there's one thing I learned as a glossolalic music critic back when Pitchfork was still a chimerical cryptopolis (before the pre-ordained ourobotic death spiral towards the idiolectic, go figure) it's that it's always better to play out your dangerous moves as a duodectet if you want to avoid the gravemen of the mythosphere. And that applies whether identity politics bibelots are set firmly aside or brought along for the ride, comprende? Fuck that shit, Frank. Deep in the pyramid they're playing your song.

thank you based luriqua

(putatively) potable

Frank Ocean is a great name, it's like he's the son of Billy Ocean.

I think Grampsy has an acute case of thesaurus poisoning

dafuq

i'll take putative potables for $200

lol

he should change it to frankly oceanic

And please, tone down the "jive talk", would you? I swear, ever since Hipster Runoff started up you young 'uns have been making less sense than a cat in a daisy suit. Try to use only words that appear in Webster's Dictionary and Farmer's Almanac.

― Grampsy, Wednesday, July 4, 2012 4:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

lol am0n

great post grampsy

lol "FOXmarc"

p sure the objectionably cynical part of that post was "making it a point to (sort of?) come out and associate yourself" rather than whatever the second bit was meant to be

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a0/Foghorn_Leghorn.png/175px-Foghorn_Leghorn.png

"In a daisy suit, that is."

yeah, the blossom of cynicism that popped up right after my post was exactly what i was talking about
it's just odd to me that there's a wave of people who can only process this kinda statement as "well CLEARLY this is about sales for his new album and brand positioning" as opposed to presuming that the lion's share of dude's message was that he doesn't feel a need to hide his personal tastes

a bit from column a and column b, omitting the word "clearly"

i guess I'm not buying it? I think he's gonna have to deal with being "the gay r&b singer" for the next ten years now; don't see how that's really going to help his career in the long or the short run... especially when dude has made such a big deal about not wanting to be pigeonholed

well he didn't want to be pigeonholed as R&B.

What I can tell you, forks? People are complicated. I don't see why ambition and spiritual ease couldn't both have motivated him.

I had deleted a post because some dude said pretty much the exact same thing in fewer words but the marketing angle here seems to be much more "this story is germane to some of the subject matter on this album" and is tied directly to the desire to be more forthcoming about who he is attracted to; releasing it early is tied to the idea of taking control of a growing narrative but seems to me to be a secondary concern.

i suppose both played some part, but given the genuine courage something like this would've taken I would prefer to err on the side of being more naive than more jaded

I don't think the jaded viewpoint requires any less courage! The blowback is going to be the blowback regardless.

I didn't come out at 24 over tumblr to potentially millions of people after writing songs for Beyonce, so I can only speculate.

so play out the jaded perspective: he's coming out at least partially to help provide a narrative for his album and to carve out a specific market niche?

I really hope no one does anything "to help provide a narrative."

and now I'm going to happy hour to advance the narrative that I like to drink after work. Ta!

"taking a growing control of a growing narrative" re your own sexuality is part and parcel of being a non-straight person. i don't think it was a secondary concern. i think it is the concern.

you don't need a 'reason' to tell the truth. it was strategic (in a justifiable, self-preserving way) for him to not be forthcoming with this information earlier in his career. but there doesn't need to be an explanation or agenda to him sharing facts about himself with the public.

xpost

he wrote a series of songs from a particular perspective, wrote liner notes to provide context behind that perspective, then released them early to take control of a growing external narrative that wasn't specifically what was being presented with the album

this cynical read of his actions doesn't make people slinging slurs at him or proclaiming that they can't bring themselves to listen to his music now any less damaging or hurtful

xp: J0rd, what I meant by that is that the liner notes were not created so they could be released on Tumblr before the album was released.

jordan otm imo

grampsy - straight fire beautiful post

then released them early to take control of a growing external narrative that wasn't specifically what was being presented with the album

i think "what was being presented with the album" is actually "what was being presented as his life" & for that reason i have trouble reading anything cynical into the way in which he decided to wrangle the "narrative"

i do think it's cool that he tried to unveil this at the exact same time as his music that addresses it, and pretty much would've if some of the handful of people that heard the album a couple weeks ahead of everyone else hadn't ran to their blogs to speculate

Can I just clarify that I'm not actually arguing that he did this for wholesale cynical reasons, just that I don't think the attributing this to cynical reasons makes it any less understandable or brave an act?

People bring up marketing like it's the epitome of disingenuousness even in cases where it's about shining a spotlight on the what "the big takeaway" should be; in this case, I think the big takeaway is that Frank Ocean is a candid motherfucker doing something that no one else in his genre is really doing on the stage where he is operating, and that's very laudable regardless of "the motivation" that got him there.

i wouldn't argue any of that
i just don't think that whatever elements of marketing that are part of this are smart marketing of the positives here; they dropped the news via a tumblr on a holiday

I'll never forgive my mother for sending me to "feelgood LET LOVE RINNGG blah blah homo camp"

well the "blah blah" part stuck, at least

blah blah stuck how does that even?

as someone who never had go through something like hiding one's sexual identity and then come out about it, i'm certainly not going to monday morning quarterback how or why someone else's decision was made.

i'm privvy to this One Big Coming Out Train of Thought but not permitted to divulge the collective's singular viewpoint to outsiders.

your initial post insinuated that it his decision to "come out" was (partly?) driven by marketing

i don't think he was driven by it but if you're going to include something obviously "controversial"/"buzzworthy"/w/e in the liner notes (or release early over social media) that's going to draw people it's still marketing without having to be a big bad thing people need to defend against.

"taking a growing control of a growing narrative" re your own sexuality is part and parcel of being a non-straight person. i don't think it was a secondary concern. i think it is the concern.

i would love to think this was the motivation

xpost <3

more surprising than frank ocean being bi is that anyone still has liners

this is why it's so exhausting just being in the same universe as marketing

essay was gorge, explained why i like his lyrics (because he is a good writer) (this is not always why i like lyrics)

Frank Ocean is a great name, it's like he's the son of Billy Ocean.

― EDB, Thursday, July 5, 2012 4:57 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

yeah to me it's pretty clear this dude saw ocean's eleven when he was 16 and thought it would be a good stage name. I mean we were all inventing band names for ourselves when we were 16.

thread took a depressing turn

this is why it's so exhausting just being in the same universe as marketing

― a hauntingly unemployed american (difficult listening hour), Thursday, July 5, 2012 6:42 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

real talk

i read this yesterday & it feels relevant: experimental philosophy. the weird thing about diagnosing the tumblr post as being some shrewd, calculating marketing move is that it's the kind of thing you usually do once someone's done something that turns out successfully, as evidence to their shrewdness; everyone said tablets couldn't work BUT HE INVENTED ONE. & everyone's doing so before the guy's "decision" has even been vindicated. the parody twitter feed above RTs so much just awful, hateful thought from probably pretty regular kids & members of his audience; he told a truth about himself & opened himself up to that. there's so little precedent for this - like most of this thread is people scrabbling around for a memorable out celebrity, of which jesus lord there are just none, huh - that to attribute any degree of shrewd commercial calculation to his thought process is crazy, assumes calculations can be made when there aren't any existing numbers to add up. like goole says:

what's the endpoint of that argument? he really should have stayed closeted, you know, true to the music, no gimmicks...

― goole, Thursday, 5 July 2012 21:28 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's a thing that he didn't invent but felt compelled for whatever reason to share. picking apart the potential upsides makes you one of those pedants who insist there are no selfless act. HE RAN INTO THE BUILDING TO SAVE THE BURNING CHILD BUT HE KNEW HE WOULD BE FONDLY THOUGHT OF AROUND THE TOWN. maybe he gets some upsides! maybe, but any kind of measured assessment of 'how is this gonna play commercially' would have made it a stupid thing to do - either for pigeonholing him creatively as the gay rnb star, per forks' post, or for adding an element to his image that alienates some fans in his field. everything you do when you have more than five people watching you is gonna elicit some positive and some negative responses; read the guy's post, it wasn't about them, it was about him.

haha feeling that post rt now xp

I would like to criticise Frank Ocean, but honesty compels me to admit that my own coming out was also a carefully stage-managed media event. In truth the timing was fairly cynical, in that I wanted it to coincide with starting to talk openly about being gay and being in gay relationships.

Plus as I had gotten to university I rather self-servingly concluded that on balance the improvements in my social life would outweigh the negative reactions.

So I better leave it to others with more clean hands to take up the crusade against this.

schlump otm

yeah to me it's pretty clear this dude saw ocean's eleven when he was 16 and thought it would be a good stage name. I mean we were all inventing band names for ourselves when we were 16.

― now all my posts got ship in it (dayo), Thursday, July 5, 2012 6:47 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

yeah and it's super funny because the Clooney remake dropped when he was like 14 so you know he was all trying to be slick referencing the o.g.

anyway the best parody stage name i could come up with was Marlon Kowalski

I guess straight people take for granted that coming out or admitting to a powerful attraction ISN'T marketeing or Creating a Narrative.

lol tim

I guess straight people take for granted that coming out or admitting to a powerful attraction ISN'T marketeing or Creating a Narrative.

i meant that schlump's right about the consequences being unknown (and unknowable) at this point. like, in doing this, frank ocean isn't following the accepted steps of a familiar career-advancement scheme.

i mean sure, self-presentation is a kind of marketing. we're always creating a narrative. that's as true of straight people as anyone else. but a lot of people (a lot of straight people, not to put too fine a point on it) will cynically dismiss frank's action here as "mere marketing", and i reject that.

^ yeah I would agree with this. i think being able to read his choice as marketing or self-definition is really interesting, speaks to something true about how we project our selves, but all the accusations of it as such have been loaded with the idea that it's a detached, sensible move, or a commercial strategy, which i don't buy. it's more that for someone to roll their eyes & say, oh huh this old gambit doesn't really seem to intersect with what the guy's options are, cf goole's post, & in terms of reacting with the guy's work, the catalyst for anything being said or needing made sense of. i really liked some of the small clarifications people were making in the ta-nehisi piece about the nuances of how he might or might not define himself, & all of those considerations react interestingly w/what frank wrote, & what he wrote on his new record, & what he wrote on his last. i just think wherever he's up to in terms of talking about himself and his past is more rooted in those things - referencing parts of his past, singing about lovers unconcerned with the genre expectations covering personal pronouns - than it is anything else. it's creating a narrative yeah, like everything is, but that's part of the guy's artistry rather than his marketing, to me.

lol I just learned right now that Johnny Mathis is out. Of course, this probably says more about how little I pay attention to Johnny Mathis than it does anything else.

― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, July 4, 2012 1:18 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Here's the thing about Mathis, though. When he "came out" in People magazine in '82, it was in the most measured terms: "Homosexuality is a lifestyle that I have grown accustomed to." He then forced the magazine to immediately issue a retraction -- I guess he thought his comments were off the record? If he is gay, he seems to be v. conflicted about it -- or, at least, conflicted about being out. He's never, for instance, had a long-term relationship of any sort that anyone knows about. (That said, he also apparently gave interviews to The Advocate in the '70s when few ostensibly straight celebrities were doing so, and he's donated money to gay causes.)

He said more recently that he forced them to retract it because he got death threats and freaked out about it. He went back on the record as being gay in 2006.

not to judge him because that's a terrible situation to be in, especially back then, but i wonder if any homophobe has ever been satisfied or placated by a retraction of a coming-out announcement.

Some of them are. I mean. The Christian right's whole deal is that you can change and marry opposite-sex partners etc. etc. etc.

The main goal is to keep everyone fully closeted and 'being straight' but the secondary goal is to at the very least keep all of us rowdy and sinful queers out of the public eye because WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

the children find this lifestyle v alluring

they are particularly vulnerable during the cootie years

Ebony article covers everything we've already covered here, but I guess the "thinkpieces" are starting to materialize: http://www.ebony.com/entertainment-culture/why-frank-oceans-coming-out-is-more-significant-than-anderson-coopers

He said more recently that he forced them to retract it because he got death threats and freaked out about it. He went back on the record as being gay in 2006.

Oh word? I had no idea.

Whenever I hear the whole "if the children see gay people being all gay and everything they will want to be gay themselves" argument, it only makes me wonder how fragile the person making the argument's own sexuality must be. Like, is your God-bestowed heterosexual attraction really that flimsy that the whole house of cards could be sent crumbling down cause of an episode of Glee or whatever?

“We probably haven’t seen a Black male artist do this since Sylvester,” Gipson added, referring to the iconic and late openly gay disco legend that died of AIDS-related complications in 1988.

xp

Whenever I hear the whole "if the children see gay people being all gay and everything they will want to be gay themselves" argument, it only makes me wonder how fragile the person making the argument's own sexuality must be. Like, is your God-bestowed heterosexual attraction really that flimsy that the whole house of cards could be sent crumbling down cause of an episode of Glee or whatever?

Usually, yes. Cf. http://gayhomophobe.com/

xp RuPaul?

out to begin with?

Sen. Roberto Arango on grindr. Claimed he was "documenting his weight loss."

http://www.mizozo.com/images/item_images/28000/27595_gallery.jpg

i felt i should document my weight loss on this Free Gay iPhone App

did Sen. Robert Arango release an R&B album I'm not aware of and that's why his name came up here? I'm just confused about this turn in the conversation

"Robert Arango" is a Frank Ocean nom de spume

i humbly request that we don't turn this thread into a compendium of now-out homophobes

Fair nuff. Sorry guys.

a cumpendium

anyway, it is sort of crazy that we can't come up with a comparable instance

when did "nom de spume" become a thing

questions better not asked

anyway, it is sort of crazy that we can't come up with a comparable instance

Tonex
Kele Okereke

kele is probably the most analogous example

Yeah, dude doesn't really have much of a foothold in the r&b/hip-hop scene, though.

i humbly request that we don't turn this thread into a compendium of now-out homophobes

is it okay to start a thread about Robert Arango's lost R&B album

Yeah, dude doesn't really have much of a foothold in the r&b/hip-hop scene, though.

― Johnny Fever, Friday, July 6, 2012 2:08 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

no, but other than that

I thought we were just talking about black male musicians in general. Ocean's story of his first love kind of reminded me of Bloc Party's "I Still Remember," in fact.

Yeah. Kele did do that dance album but he's always primarily been part of the indie scene and I don't know how large a profile he really has in North America - Britishers, etc.

well obv he had no profile in rap/r&b but there are still a lot of similarities there. not that it really matters.

Tonex
Kele Okereke

― Never translate Dutch (jaymc), Friday, July 6, 2012 11:06 AM (3 minutes ago)

thanks, jaymc.

do you some of you guys even notice that are going "okay but he's not REALLY black"

Tonex/B. Slade is a really interesting example I had forgotten about. Big gospel star who came out.

xp I don't think that's what's happening here? It's more about who Kele's audience is than who Kele is.

"i still remember" is such an amazing song

K. Sanneh's great profile of Tonex is locked away behind a paywall. :/

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/02/08/100208fa_fact_sanneh

kele -- or, at least bloc party -- was more famous in the UK when he came out than frank is in the US now (or at least prior to his coming out), and as far as i know the UK can be as intolerable of gays as the US can

I don't think that's what's happening here? It's more about who Kele's audience is than who Kele is.

In what way does that matter? It's not like super flamboyant drag queen Sylvester was alienating the disco audience with his act.

Bloc Party had a pretty decent US profile -- #12 and #18 debuts on the album chart. FO's album will debut higher but i dunno if by a huge amount.

xxpost

No denying this is true, but hasn't the UK had a longer history of out gay pop stars than the States? Like, i believe George Michael was still having hits over there when he was nothing but tabloid fodder over here.

also the implication that the world of indie rock was a safer place for a coming out than the rap/r&b world is possibly true, but there's probably a smaller gulf than people are implying, i think.

bloc party were a big band in the UK and popular amongst, you know, straight white males who think oasis & blur are the best bands of all time. not exactly the most welcoming of arms.

Sylvester's audience was different from Frank Ocean's, too. xxp

Tbh, I hadn't considered that the audience for indie in the UK is considerably more "laddish" than here.

man I forgot how good "I Still Remember" is.

Just about the only keeper from that second album imo.

I think, considering that the original comment was "first black male musician to come out since Sylvester", using the perceived hostility of the audience as a barometer for deciding whether someone "counts" or not should make you examine some of the assumptions you're making

tonex was honestly the first name i thought of but the pop gospel background makes for a different and much less heartening story. dude more or less had to switch genres and change his name. coming out was devastating to his career.

also the implication that the world of indie rock was a safer place for a coming out than the rap/r&b world is possibly true, but there's probably a smaller gulf than people are implying, i think.

bloc party were a big band in the UK and popular amongst, you know, straight white males who think oasis & blur are the best bands of all time. not exactly the most welcoming of arms.

― J0rdan S., Friday, 6 July 2012 18:24 (16 minutes ago) Permalink

I really don't think we're that fussed in the UK. I can not think of any equivalent of the repulsive "I'm not going to listen to his music anymore" reaction. Also UK indie rock is very much conditioned to ambiguous sexuality - re: Morrissey, Chris Martin's confessions he thought he was gay, etc. Also Kele sort of came out in 2007 before officially came out in 2010, which made the whole thing sort of a non-story.

is the tonex/b.slade stuff any good? anyone know? plan to check it out, but just curious...

what amazes me is that no one on ilx has come out as gay or bi or even black i mean what are the chances

I really don't think we're that fussed in the UK. I can not think of any equivalent of the repulsive "I'm not going to listen to his music anymore" reaction. Also UK indie rock is very much conditioned to ambiguous sexuality - re: Morrissey, Chris Martin's confessions he thought he was gay, etc. Also Kele sort of came out in 2007 before officially came out in 2010, which made the whole thing sort of a non-story.

― danzig, Friday, July 6, 2012 2:49 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

fair enough. but for whatever it's worth, i was talking about his coming out in 07 (i remember it being fairly explicit) & something like "i still remember"

also as it pertains to the repulsive "I'm not going to listen to his music anymore" reaction i don't think that reaction has been very prevalent and it's only been illuminated (imo) because of the culture on the internet (aided by the visibility fo twitter) of people actively seeking out random people saying terrible/dumb shit so that they can point and say "hey, look at the terrible/dumb thing this random person said"

i'm sure if twitter was around in 07 when kele first came out there would've been similar reactions available at your fingertips if you so pleased

didn't even know that kele had an official coming out in 2010, actually.

I think, considering that the original comment was "first black male musician to come out since Sylvester", using the perceived hostility of the audience as a barometer for deciding whether someone "counts" or not should make you examine some of the assumptions you're making

― I see you, Pineapple Teef (DJP), Friday, July 6, 2012 2:35 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it wasn't a perceived hostility thing, i promise! i was more questioning whether or not it was the most 'analogous example' as j0rdan put it.

my indie comment was meant to imply that Frank Ocean has a bigger profile than Bloc Party/Kele and thus this is a bigger deal than that was. which - like rev i forgot that 'indie' in the UK is actually more laddish than bloc party's audience was in north america, and i suppose i also overestimated frank's popularity/underestimated bloc party's in north america? (also: kele came out well into his career, so he was also approaching it from a potentially more stable situation. not to diminish anything, just i don't know how 'analogous' it is to someone coming out right at the beginning of his career two weeks before an album release.)

the UK vs US thing was intended to be a comment about perceived hostility, and maybe i'm wrong about that and i underestimate homophobia in the UK, but while I'm sure there are plenty of homophobic dicks and gaybashing etc. i still think that the UK, *culturally* doesn't seem to have the same intensity of feelings about queerness. i'd say the same thing about canada.

neither country is a perfect gay haven, but i just can't imagine media getting worked up about a musician's sexuality in canada, and i've always kind of subconsciously extended that to the UK.

and i know being defensive is totally NAGL, but i really didn't intend to comment on the audience for hip hop specifically, and if i seemed to imply that indie is more inherently friendly to queer folk, i'm sorry, because that's some racist bullshit.

i don't really think frank is in a totally diff stage of his career than kele, fwiw. both have come out essentially in the run-up to their second albums.

didn't even know that kele had an official coming out in 2010, actually.

yeah, exposed his bum to butt magazine and all

also, david mcalmont, people.

and, yeah, for all of the highlighting of people saying dumb homophobic shit, i think the real story here is just how generally POSITIVE the reaction has been from most quarters.

a lot of it is still tied up on labelling and binary notions of sexuality and crypto-racist concern trolling about his potential album sales and conspiracy theories about it being good PR, but i can't think of a single public figure in the music industry who hasn't reacted supportively and if anyone that big reacted negatively they've kept it to themselves.

it would be nice if a lot of the reactions weren't that weird sexuality-blind/color-blind "it doesn't matter if he sleeps with men or women or sheep as long as he makes music you like' because it DOES matter for him and for people who look up to him and are empowered by him etc. but generally it's more good than gross, from where i'm sitting.

and yeah, that butt magazine thing was kind of lol.

"first black male musician to come out since Sylvester"

I didn't even realize the tangent about Kele was connected to this (obviously false) assertion.

britishes dont count

anyway, maybe this adds some subtext to "lovecrimes"

but probably not

are bi people part of the illuminati y/n

Love everyone talking about the size of FO's profile when this now 400+ post thread had only about 20 responses pre-announcement.

tbf, Frank Ocean has been covered in a lot of other threads. This one was particularly about the new album/material and only two tracks had been heard at that point.

album wasn't out yet! isn't out yet! pyramids is lovely tho

Fair enough. (fwiw, second half of "Pyramids" is easily one of the top songs of the year for me so far.)

i think that becomes a valid argument if this is all anyone wants to talk about once the album leaks is OMG h3 1s so g4YYYYYY11111!111

I now realise where I've heard "Thinkin Bout You" before. Somebody here posted Bridget Kelly's "Thinking About Forever." Ace song.

butt magazine

just realized i'd also heard "thinkin bout you" somewhere before, also that i can really not stand his falsetto

so has Tevin Campbell made any statement since his arrest?

He just posted this: http://frankocean.tumblr.com/post/26646279205

I'm listening to it now, so I don't know what track it is yet.

"sweet life"

okay, it's "Sweet Life"

Frank must have been following the thread. "Imma give them another song to talk about."

Not sure about the mango peaches HDTV bits but that chorus with the horns is killer.

just realized i'd also heard "thinkin bout you" somewhere before, also that i can really not stand his falsetto

― some dude, Friday, July 6, 2012 3:43 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark

i think the little creak in his falsetto when he sings that chorus is really kinda sweet

"sweet life" being co-produced by pharrell makes sense & i'm not sure i mean that in a 100% complimentary fashion

"sweet life"

― i'm a housewife, an artist, and a snow leopard (

I thought this said "Sweet Wife" lol

street wife?

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcpXI9wykkozlOVAjKSDW9kZRYzRtN51-qeZOgg7n3MJhMbRhUkr15pVbJ

I love that outro guitar and electric piano.

the rest is innocuous

sounds like old nerd

it's a bit more fleshed out sonically than old NERD imo but yeah

i think the little creak in his falsetto when he sings that chorus is really kinda sweet

― J0rdan S., Friday, July 6, 2012 4:26 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark

he's not terrible or anything but all the awestruck "that voice" stuck from the frank o-philes always seems absurd to me when i actually hear him sing

no i'm totally with you on that. i thought that was a really weird aspect of the spin profile. if i was gonna sell someone on frank ocean, his singing voice would not be high on my list.

Strangely enough, the live videos from tour on the youtubes seem a lot better re: the falsetto than that studio recording. Not sure why!

fully fleshed old NERD is about right. i like it better than that sounds tho

nabisco wrote abt this yesterday and still no otms, ilx losing its edge

cuz it was ok?

I need a break from thinking about Ocean now that the latest leaked track is meh.

yeah that is a good piece nymag otm. one thing it made me think was that the context for frank ocean's post is p singular in itself - the batsign being that he's addressing songs to guys, which i don't really have a pop-music-frame-of-reference for, rather than continuing on singing generically but speaking extratextually to his life, rather than the contents of his art. cf NA:

It’s certainly not what we’re used to, which is watching people far more well-known than Ocean sitting down with a press organ to negotiate the public terms of their identity: how they’ll consent to be defined, which parts of their sexuality are public and which are private, and where lines can be drawn between their personal lives and their work. Ocean’s a writer of songs, though, and many of those songs have to do with love and sex, which means things here can travel in the opposite direction.

that he wrote the songs and then could either have supplemented the content that drew people's attention or just not is p important in thinking about it all.

silk-voiced

nabisco notm

Only now catching up on all of this. He'll be played in the inevitable biopic by Anderson Cooper oh wait.

Mentions of Kele and David McAlmont -- on the rather more indie front there's Luke Sutherland...

http://oi49.tinypic.com/9pv0ig.jpg

loooooool

Congrats Freddy

Freddie's big secret = finally completing the special stages in Sonic the Hedgehog.

all this thread's assessments of frank ocean's fame OTM

secret so much they call him freddy ocean

ha

The overlooked Donnie came out a few years ago -- was it around the time ('07?) of Rahsaan Patterson's "confirmation"?

silk-voiced

nabisco notm

― I'm HOOSin' out, 36 o's, so I'm drivin' round with that steena (some dude), Saturday, July 7, 2012 11:12 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

One man's silk is another man's melted-on-a-sun-baked-blacktop nougat.

and one of those men writes about R&B in a way that i enjoy reading

'thinking about you' is a great shit karaoke jam

much along the same lines of my equally pseudo-beloved 'lotus flower bomb'

ships have u perhaps lately been considering an extended rumination on the pervasive influence of n.e.r.d that dares not be acknowledged

or [falsetto] do you not think so far.... ahead

britishes dont count

^^^ Probably true. British indie dudes definitely don't, because 'British indie musician comes out' hasn't been newsworthy for decades.

ships have u perhaps lately been considering an extended rumination on the pervasive influence of n.e.r.d that dares not be acknowledged

or [falsetto] do you not think so far.... ahead

― r|t|c, Monday, July 9, 2012 11:04 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

haha the only reason i didn't want to talk about it in this thread is because i remember acknowledging pharrell's influence in a vaguely positive way in the miguel thread but also used it in the odd future thread as a stick to beat cedric, the entertainer's taste with

oh right yeah i forgot tyler was a massive star trak stan (trakkie?), even better

there's no way you can ever nail your flag to the mast either way tho, mixed results are surely the inherent nature of the kidult beast. the lovelorn sk8r teen into stroppy sociopath realness imbalance

i remember acknowledging pharrell's influence in a vaguely positive way in the miguel thread

Oooh, which track(s)? I never came around to "Sure Thing," but maybe I should check out his other stuff...

i think "Girls Like You" (which i love) was the main song we pinned a NERD vibe to but i think it's all over the Art Dealer Chic stuff

Cool -- suffice to say, invocations of Pharrell are not a negative thing for me.

call him post-Pharrell though.

http://potholesinmyblog.com/how-not-to-respond-to-frank-oceans-sexuality/

Do not refer to Frank as gay or bisexual.

OTM

yep.

call him post-Pharrell though.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, July 9, 2012 9:08 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://potholesinmyblog.com/how-not-to-respond-to-frank-oceans-sexuality/

Do not refer to Frank as gay or bisexual.

― frank o'sin (Eric H.), Monday, July 9, 2012 1:33 PM Bookmark

I kind of wish the order of these two posts were reversed.

A+

haw

ha!

I do feel bad for copy editors and designers trying to condense Ocean's ambiguites.

frank is on fallon tonight

i always suspected that about jimmy

al!

this is on itunes at midnight

flattered ship pulled off a dumb Alfred-style joek

Stream is up http://frankocean.tumblr.com/post/26885717440/channelorange

waiting to hear the whole thing before i make any comments but so far it's stunning stuff. on bad religion right now and really impressed.

horrible album art

oh, this shit really comes in itunes as channel ORANGE?

This is like a new album of Prince in his orime.

Um, no.

it may be like a new album of prince in his recently purchased vintage japanese textile http://orimetextiles.com/

Some great and some not-so-great stuff just like the first album, but imo the great stuff here is greater.

otm xp

Andre 3000's verse sounds like Frank called him up at 4 in the morning and said "go".

yeah, i really don't hear prince here as much as marvin and stevie

http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/Frank-Ocean:-Bad-Religion/1408858

The Prince part is the combination of emotional sincerity with audacious narratives.

Just woke up from a super intense dream about Frank Ocean asking me to provide a beat for his new record.

actually got pretty excited by the rapturous praise i'd heard about this but i'm halfway through and it's really not changing my mind about frank ocean. i find his voice really flat and affectless.

That Potholes list is both OTM and practically impossible to follow for any journalist writing about this.

when i click the potholes link nothing comes up? just a blank brown page with a couple of random album covers

obv this is moot now the album's out there but i felt a bit uncomfortable at how the talk about frank ocean's sexuality refused to die down, from every conceivable angle. expected and maybe even understandable, i was just thinking back to when i came out and how i felt the worst thing would be people making it into a massive deal when it wasn't - the idea of people constantly talking about it and analysing it (ie gossiping) was a bit of a nightmare. i really sympathise with him over that.

this album is just getting dull now though, "pyramids" really stood out as a highlight and i didn't even love it that much

I'm really enjoying it. it's so much jazzier than I expected, rhodesy and loose. there's something almost jarring about the songs oscillating between sung choruses and spoken portions, lists being reeled off, but it's pretty commanding. like almost a Gil Scott-Heron kinda thing?, the vocabulary of it, not that I think it sounds like a Gil record (actually Monks just started, this totally sounds like a Gil record!).

fallon performance is grrrreat.

obv this is moot now the album's out there but i felt a bit uncomfortable at how the talk about frank ocean's sexuality refused to die down

well...it's been six days

Haven't listened to it, but apparently there's a sample from La Jetee which, if so, <3 this man so much.

Hmm...so far I'm kinda with lex, though more positively inclined. Still I think a lot is being hugely read into this now as opposed to this leaping out on its own merits. "Sierra Leone" and "Super Rich Kids" are cool. Jody Rosen said something last night about how this is like seventies Marvin in terms of taking a basic groove and making a song out of it through force of performance and that's not inaccurate but it's also not as remarkable as it could be.

Except Marvin was one of the greatest singers ever and Ocean... isn't.

A key fucking distinction!

I'm with you two so far. The two leaked tracks had already made me wonder whether I overrated last year's release.

Honestly the more this goes on the more I'm locking into the background music instead of his singing. And it's not that the music is some out of nowhere amazing thing, but it's just nice to float along with, like the "Pilot Jones"/"Crack Rock" combination.

this album is just getting dull now though, "pyramids" really stood out as a highlight and i didn't even love it that much

And I gotta say, Lex VERY OTM with this point. It starts and all of a sudden there's a different energy that's been near absent otherwise.

"Thinkin Bout You" is great so far, dude's singing voice is basically like "imagine if Drake was tolerable"

except for his falsetto, which is has this weird driving fragility that makes it very interesting

lol is "Fertilizer" a joke

i def prefer his falsetto to his normal singing voice

i'm not sure the songs are that interesting

i've never seen an album so unanimously rhapsodised about and i'm just confused cuz it's not like i hate it, i just don't think it's interesting at all

http://www.thesinglesjukebox.com/?p=5699

but then this year is a new low in the amount of hyped music i fuck with tbh

On "Sierra Leone"... I am really digging this groove, it's like an aural cardigan

"Sweet Life"... so far the actual songs on here seem to be designed as throwback comfort food

Then it gets a running shove, past ludicrous and into sheer camp, when you realize it’s the same plot as Disney’s Aida.

aaaaaaaaaaaahhhahahahahahaha omg yes!

xp it would help if the voice was throwback comfort food as well - like that's pretty much what the last two r kelly albums have been but kellz' voice elevates them beyond it at their best, and at their most rote at least ups the comfort levels significantly

"Not Just Money" why are the interludes given names like they are important things you'll want to go back to and play in isolation ("ooh 'Not My Money' is my JAM, don't front!")

"Super Rich Kids" I would rather listen to "Benny and the Jets"

xp: that may be but honestly, fuck R Kelly

that ignorant-ass molesting asshole is getting zero percent of my time/money if I can help it

"Lost" is kinda nice, works as a good follow-on to "Pyramids"

that ignorant-ass molesting asshole is getting zero percent of my time/money if I can help it

― I see you, Pineapple Teef (DJP), Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:52 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

misplaced hyphen joke

ha

'Bad Religion' is great. Up there with 'Novacane','Songs For Women' 'Swim Good' from the first record.

that high huh

fuck R Kelly

you sure?

Yeah I get it Lex you don't rate him.

"Pilot Jones" I don't understand why everyone is leaping directly to Marvin/Stevie comparisons when Maxwell is sitting there forlornly looking at us from the 90s wondering why everyone has forgotten he existed

like, if there's anyone out there more obviously influenced by the nu-soul posse, let me know; I've been kind of out of touch with this shit

In fairness Maxwell's last album got a lot of ILM love and (I think) sold a load of records as well. Doubt he'll be too worried about a lack of hipster blog buzz.

maxwell's last album got a ton of love iirc? and i'm very hyped for the second part of the trilogy, if not a little IMPATIENT by now

but otm it didn't get nearly as much ubiquitous coverage as this

Yeah I've been thinking Maxwell the whole damn time as well. And where IS that second album...

idk if the frank ocean love is "just" hipsterblogbuzz, or at least it seems hipsterblogbuzz is a thing actually guiding the mainstream industry a lot more, so ocean is pretty much a bigger deal than maxwell at this point, sadly

Maxwell's 2009 was a big hit, esp on the R&B chart.

"Crack Rock" I dig the snares and ride cymbals on this beat

xp: I think you guys are completely misreading what I'm saying, which is that I think Frank has more in common with Maxwell/D'Angelo than Marvin/Stevie, and it's weird that everyone is leapfrogging over what seem to me to be really blatant influences for ones that are at least a layer removed (well not that weird seeing as everyone seems determined to make this The Classic Album Of 2012, but it would still be possible to do that without pretending that this album is "Let's Get It On Pt 2")

Ah okay that makes sense.

"Pyramids" okay I see why ppl are pointing to this as the standout (faster tempo, buzzy synths) but to me this is basically breaking a mood that I was enjoying, at least until that bass line comes in at which point I stop caring and start agreeing, this is great

Marvin and Stevie are the go-to references for R&B, for better or worse. It would help if Frank Beverly got his due.

I think Frank has more in common with Maxwell/D'Angelo

apart from one really really important thing ie the VOICE

new Maxwell album and single are apparently coming soon, but he just canceled a bunch of tourdates due to "vocal swelling and hemorrhaging," which is v worrying

lex i'm not really into this frank ocean stuff either but honestly whining over and over that people don't share your exact taste is a terrible look, please chill the fuck out

gee lex, do you have an opinion on how Frank Ocean sings, I'm not really getting a clear sense of where you stand on that

i've never seen an album so unanimously rhapsodised about

this album was released today...

lol is "Fertilizer" a joke

Part of why I made the Prince-in-his-prime comparison: Starfish + Coffee into Dorothy Parker aka is this guy for real.

"Lost" this is great, too; dude has a knack for settling into a groove that conveys ease regardless of the song's subject matter

also re: his singing, it's interesting to me that he's basically using this blank, somewhat fragile instrument that resonate a good third to a fifth below where his songs are set; obv as a dude with a lower voice I am going to be psyched that someone is out there putting out things I could reasonably sing but he's got a bunch of different colors in his timbre between his registers and it's actually pretty canny and smart of him to spread out parts across his vocal range the way he does, since trying to do vocal gymnastics all through his range would be super disjointed

"White (feat John Mayer)" despite this being a pretty instrumental, I feel honor bound to hate it because of John Mayer

"Monks" more hot snares/cymbals

"Bad Religion" okay I am going to overrate this song because the first few bars remind me of "Porpoise Song" but bear with me; this is the most instantly appealing song on the album in terms of how it sounds since "Thinkin Bout You", even if I'm not as convinced by his falsetto on it

at some point I should go back and actually listen to what he's saying, I guess?

"Pink Matter" ha okay this was not the song start focusing on the words, huh

I like the idea of the chanted exclamations in the background but I don't think I can recover from how stupid I thought the first two lines were to give this song a fair shake

dan: does the fact that he's 24 count for anything? like, his voice could/will improve right? i'm just thinking about what (bear with me) will oldham sounded like in his 20s (terrible) and what he sounds like now. also assume that frank o has not had extensive voice training.

that's not that young

ha yeah we're not talking about justin bieber's learning curve or something

There have been R&B singers, even critically acclaimed ones, with less than amazing voices and I don't see why that should stand in Frank Ocean's way if the songs stand up, the eyeroll was for the Marvin comparisons really.

anyone know anything about the James Ho that has a credit on nearly every song on this? brainwasher?

his discogs page indicates he's an industry dude but i've never heard the name

"Forrest Gump" I really want to hate this song but the beat is great; I learned my lesson from "Pink Matter" and am studiously ignoring what he's saying

does the fact that he's 24 count for anything? like, his voice could/will improve right? i'm just thinking about what (bear with me) will oldham sounded like in his 20s (terrible) and what he sounds like now. also assume that frank o has not had extensive voice training.

It's hard to say, really; certainly his voice will change as he gets older but what direction it will go is totally in the air. Also, he's unlikely to do a Madonna and get vocal training that completely changes the way he sounds, given that he's basically building his career off of the nasally rasp that is currently in vogue. If anything, I would expect is voice to open up some over the next few years with a little bit of the edge in the midrange coming off, possibly at the expense of some of the flexibility. He also may get better at the leaps into his passagio that sometimes makes him a little flat on interjected notes that leap up a third or fourth above where the bulk of the melody lies. I expect from the way he's singing and phrasing that he has had some amount of vocal training; whether it was formalized voice lessons or tips picked up singing with some type of group/choir, I don't know.

(men's voices often do go through a shift around the mid-20s; I know for me I suddenly got a good bit louder and more natural vibrato started manifesting in my vocal production)

Haven't had a chance to listen to the rest of the album yet -- had to be on desk a half hour back and it's been busy as hell since -- but "Bad Religion" does sound very lovely, and that's about where I left off. The album seems very backloaded rather than frontloaded.

I'm with you two so far. The two leaked tracks had already made me wonder whether I overrated last year's release.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:36 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Can you elaborate on this? I have absolutely no idea how leaked tracks for one album could make you question how you rated a different album...

i think this album is pretty tremendous.

ain't felt this way on a first listen since take care *winks*

I didn't like the singing, content, or structures of "Pyramids" or "Thinking About You," which made me return to the mixtape to see if I'd overrate it. It's a natural reaction for me. I still think it's a good record.

*overrated

anyone know anything about the James Ho that has a credit on nearly every song on this? brainwasher?

his discogs page indicates he's an industry dude but i've never heard the name

― J0rdan S., Tuesday, July 10, 2012 11:33 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Malay

Is this getting played on Hot 97 et al?

xxpost Fair enough. I spent so much time with it - perhaps you did too - that I can't imagine his new stuff altering my feelings about it, but, yeah ... fair enough.

ah, thanks. he did "green light" !!

xp to andy

Malay is an R&B/Pop/Rock/Hip-Hop producer and songwriter who is believed to be of Asian descent.[1]

oh wikipediapaws

Is this getting played on Hot 97 et al?

From the NYT:

Ebro Darden, the program director for Hot 97, a hip-hop station in New York, said that Mr. Ocean’s sexual orientation would not be a factor in the station’s calculations about broadcasting his songs. “Hot 97 has supported Frank Ocean since before his record label knew what to do with him, and we will continue to,” he said. “I hope people judge him based on his music, not personal preferences.”

that doesn't mean that his songs are getting played tho

local R&B station played "Novocane" quite a bit through last winter. Dunno the story nationwide.

my guess would be that hot 97 is probably playing some of frank's stuff tho i doubt it's in heavy rotation next to usher & trey songz. as far as radio stations go they were a pretty early supporter of odd future.

ain't felt this way on a first listen since take care *winks*

-_-

hot97 only playing the ambient wordless playstation segues

"Thinkin' Bout You" is #37 on Nielsen's Urban National Airplay chart.

too bad urban radio only plays 12 songs

Meantime from Rich Juzwiak

http://gawker.com/5924627/frank-ocean-is-wonderful-and-important-but-rb-has-been-gayish-for-a-while-now

boom

hmm i don't really listen to r&b at all but i really like this album. he's a really good singer with a great voice. the production on this seems way more inventive and creative than most r&b i hear.

^ my best attempt to give lex a heart attack

Frank strikes me as a better songwriter (although he isn't super-consistent yet in that category) than a singer, but I'm increasingly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on his vocal abilities. He seems to use that flat, affectless voice as a conscious choice because he can sing quite beautifully when he wants and one of his best tricks seems to be breaking out of the former into the latter mid-song. I've only listened to the album once but I'm pretty taken with it as it is. I think "Pyramids" and "Bad Religion" are remarkable songs, although I think I like his Fallon performance of BR more than the album version.

"Pyramids" is basically the best Terry song in a couple years.

I don't understand why everyone is leaping directly to Marvin/Stevie comparisons when Maxwell is sitting there forlornly looking at us from the 90s wondering why everyone has forgotten he existed

― I see you, Pineapple Teef (DJP), Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:57 AM Bookmark

tbf, Maxwell would be doing that anyways

Ha, my favorite song on this so far is prob "Sweet Life," i.e. the one Pharrell produced.

I like parts of "Pyramids," but I don't have a good handle on it as a singular entity yet.

maxwell seems like he has the least anxiety about being forgotten or neglected of anyone in R&B

"Sweet Life" is one I'm not quite sure about. Seems kind of ersatz-Stevie to me.

i tried to listen to "Pyramids" once on YouTube and when the page stopped loading 1/3rd through the song i was overcome with apathy about trying to hear the rest until i check out the album

"Sweet Life" is one I'm not quite sure about. Seems kind of ersatz-Stevie to me.

― chain the color of am0n (The Reverend), Tuesday, July 10, 2012 3:38 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah me too

xxp maybe, but this is the same sadsack Maxwell who wrote all that mid-2000s emo myspace poetry and morosely brushes his teeth in music videos

maxwell instagrammed a photo from his hospital bed today

perhaps Jason King's EMP presentation, just pre-comeback, where he read said myspace poetry while Max brushed his very sad teeth with his very sad toothbrush on a screen in the background has forever tainted my impression of the singer

the "forrest gump" lyrics

I wanna see your pom poms from the stands
Come on, come on

My fingertips, and my lips, they burn
From the cigarettes
Forrest Gump you run my mind boy
Running on my mind boy
Forrest Gump

I know you Forrest
I know you wouldn't hurt a beetle
But you're so buff, and so strong
I'm nervous Forrest

Forrest Gump
Now my fingertips, and my lips, they burn
From the cigarettes
Forrest Gump you run my mind boy
Running on my mind boy
Forrest Gump

I saw ya game, Forrest
I was screamin' run 44
But you kept runnin' past the end zone
Oh where'd you go Forrest

Forrest Gump
And my fingertips, and my lips, they burn
From the cigarettes
Forrest Gump you run my mind boy (yea)
Running on my mind boy
Forrest Gump

Forrest green
Forrest blues
I re-mem-ber you
If this is love, I know it's true
I won't For-get you (you)
(oh you you) it's for you Forrest
(oh you you) it's for you Forrest

Outro:
If this is love
I know it's true
I won't
For-get-you

Far worse things than ersatz Stevie.

he's in love with an imbecile boy!

Who isn't?

perhaps Jason King's EMP presentation, just pre-comeback, where he read said myspace poetry while Max brushed his very sad teeth with his very sad toothbrush on a screen in the background has forever tainted my impression of the singer

Hahah you're not alone.

I don't want to luxuriate in a romantic/existential crisis, I want to be able to brush my very sad teeth with my very sad toothbrush

wow those "forrest gump" lyrics are quite dreadful

judging lyrics on paper is always a fool's errand

not that those are his best lyrics or anything, pretty far from

the central comparison is the worst thing!

i like them

I saw ya game, Forrest
I was screamin' run 44
But you kept runnin' past the end zone
Oh where'd you go Forrest

this was the point in the song where I was like "better tune out now"

Listening to this song again will test my faith in Ocean cuz I hate FG with the heat of a thousand suns.

Listening now, his voice is fine really, I mean he's a better singer than eg Terius or someone. Not sure it's likely to stick with me or it's a record I'm going to want to go back to very much, but pleasant enough.

i saw the forrest gump film when i was about 12 and i remember having a real scales-falling-from-child's-eyes moment about what twee bullshit adults fooled themselves with

I pretty much agree with Matt, with the caveat that I'm at least likely to come back to this for about a week after which point I'll either be convinced or shrug and go back to playing VCMG

The production isn't interesting at all from what I can hear.

Listening now, his voice is fine really, I mean he's a better singer than eg Terius or someone.

aw idk man; i don't have any concerns about FO's voice, i think it's nice & like Rev says, really effectively discharged switching between modes. but Terius is a pretty slinky singer. like on the new single.

so anyway i liked the couple of tracks i heard last month but now the nutjob reviews are happening i'm going to not be able listen to this soz frank

ploughed through this thread and don't really have anything to add except I just saw his 'Bad Religion' performance on Fallon - gonna buy the album off itunes tonight just based on that.

you run my mind, boy / runnin on my mind, boy

^^^^^

i have mad thoughtz on this album but am kind of drunk and about to go back outside so i may or may not reveal my thoughtz in this thread at a later date

though, i just have to say, how fucking poignant it is to hear him say "boy" - like, after years of (dis)identifying with female r&b singers and sort of placing onself into the narratives created by (ostensibly) hetero male r&b singers it's so fucking refreshing to hear that fucking pronoun coming from a male singer's mouth in a love song, you have no idea

srsly

"you must be forrest gump because you've been running through my mind all day" is the worst pickup line ever though

seriously!

Sullybait.

This unrequited love
To me it's nothing but
A one-man cult
And cyanide in my styrofoam cup

This is a really good lyric I think - all of Bad Religion in fact.

"you must be forrest gump because you've been running through my mind all day" is the worst pickup line ever though

― straight up now tell me will I be a fucking lump forever? (some dude), Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:14 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't think he's necessarily using it as a pick up line -- i read it as frank talking to himself

obviously i was joking and the song isn't a pickup, but it seems to me like he's definitely addressing the object of his affection and not himself. in any event turning the outro of juvenile's "ha" into a love song is hilariously awful.

basically his bad ideas seem to be on the level w/ the-dream's but the far more serious and emotional underpinnings make them even more glaring imo

worse than turning Back That Azz Up into a love song?

"back that azz up" is a love song

"Back That Azz Up" already is a love song

xp dammit

I <3 a fuckin hood rat, that's a fact

ok ok, turning it into a Drake song then

"You must be Patch Adams because you've been clowning me all day"

Bad Religion ‏@badreligion
might as well follow the guys while you're visiting ‪#FF‬ @BrettGurewitz @DoctorGraffin @jay_bentley @brookswackerman @GregHetson @frank_ocean

"You must be Larry Crowne 'cause nobody's seen you."

You must be Uncle Ned because you slapped me across the room.

fabolous's "i'm paul blart, all i do is mall cop" line as love song

ahaha that fucking line

what was that one lil wayne/adam sandler line we were all arguing over that one time?

"I just do this shit for my Click like Adam Sandler/ I control hip-hop and I'ma keep it on my channel"

haha yes

someone stop me before i do R&B ballad versions of every lyric in the examples of rappers lovin will ferrell thread

wow 'end' is one of the best things on this. so pretty.

it's like this record's small ambient came to give love outro

can I just posit the idea that complaining about the lyrics of "Forrest Gump" when you have "Bad Religion" is some missing the forest for the trees-ass bullshit?

If he toured with Meshell Ndegeocello's band...

Of interest

http://www.hitsdailydouble.com/news/newsPage.cgi?news09045m01

The week’s big story is controversial Def Jam/IDJ avant-R&B crooner Frank Ocean, a member of the L.A.-based hip-hop collective Odd Future, who will open with a very impressive 110-125k as an iTunes exclusive for his major label bow, Channel Orange.