The lost late eighties college rock interzone

Yeah, a mouthful, but prompted by this:

--

CVB is more of a sleeper because 1986-1988 is just more of a lost time than 1979.

― timellison, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:05 AM (42 minutes ago)

that's very easy to argue against but has bit of a feel of truth to it

― some dude, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:18 AM (30 minutes ago)

do you mean for college rock, tim?

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:25 AM (22 minutes ago)

Yeah, definitely. Camper was really of their time and fit in with everything from late-'80s R.E.M. to the weird records that were coming out on SST and other indie labels at the time. College rock changed A LOT in the early '90s and the whole tenor of that time was lost. I don't see that it's come back at all.

― timellison, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:29 AM (18 minutes ago)

Every once in a while I see a band come along that revises/revitalizes that 86-88 hinterland of sound (usually in the more psych areas of college rock like Dream Syndicate and what have you), but it's largely ignored while latin freestyle and heavily-produced pop and dancefloor electro from that era have been explored at length in recent years.

― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:34 AM (13 minutes ago)

I think you're right about that interzone.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:38 AM (9 minutes ago)

--

My quick thoughts here, allowing for some dude's partial caveat, are twofold:

1) The obvious one: the pre-eminence of college radio stations as a place where certain things could be heard -- there and nowhere else -- has been demolished (the Net, most obviously, but also TV/commercial/movie licensing). Those bands that are more catchy, for lack of a better term, that might work in this field have alternate ways to exposure if not necessarily success, however that is measured these days anyway, therefore there's less of a hothouse space for that kind of revival to thrive in a self-identified sphere.

2) The harder-to-spell out one: why no new elaborations on the sound even as a revival aspect, per Johnny Fever's take? Perhaps because that sound probably -- probably -- was something that grew specifically out of that hothouse space. "What's theoretically catchy but is still not commercial? What record labels would be interested in these potential hybrids? Not the majors so it's indie, but who's going to play us?" So it's a slumgullion of a sound and while hybridizations always occur without any regard for what people want/expect/demand, it's like there's no overriding perceived *need* for it anymore, it's just an option, not the option. But this is just hazarding a guess.

Bands now that kinda/sorta make me think of what's being discussed here might include Dengue Fever and the War on Drugs, maybe, but I don't automatically associate them with any kind of extrapolation from that time. Other contexts, reference points and mental expectations appear to exist.

Yer thoughts?

probably some crossover here: College Rock Goes Pop
kinda feel like the last real estate record made me think late 80s college rock.

something else to keep in mind: Billboard didn't create the Modern Rock chart until September 1988, so there are probably some songs from the years leading up to that that would have some kind of lasting Billboard documentation of their popularity that don't the way comparable songs afterward did

kinda mangled the syntax of that sentence but you get my drift

Good point! Chris Molanphy to thread as well, then!

Jangle bands just aren't cool anymore. One reason may be that REM stuck around too long and became staggeringly uncool. I remember giving my indie rock loving teenage cousin a copy of Murmur and she looked at me like I was handing her a booger.

Is Animal Collective the Camper Van Beethoven of the 21st century?

ho boy let's walk that one back before it gets anywhere

The Outfield's "Your Love" sounds like the kind of song that would've been massive on a "modern rock" chart had it existed in '86

yeah but it was also massive on the existing rock chart and the pop charts. it was just a big song period.

Before Modern Rock charts, they had a lot of "Dance" charts where stuff like New Order and The Smiths would show up.

There was a counter-cultural vibe to late-'80s indie that got lost at some point in the early '90s, I think. It was really widespread and had a sort of seriousness to it.

these guys remind me of...something. they even named themselves after their favorite year (not really). but yeah you wouldn't hear them on college radio, you'd hear them on gossip girl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JA1zZbvbZQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydYHaLx4pWs

Hmm does Eleventh Dream Day fit this?

IMHO this is the quintessential 80s video: Rhythm Corps: Common Ground.

The song aged well, but the video, not so much

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Dt75MVtqw&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL824FAE1B8735B90B

Wait, that's not it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Dt75MVtqw

Even though they ended up being part of the alt rock boom, toad the wet sprocket and gin blossoms felt more a part if the interzone than the post nirvana world

I'm thinking stuff like That Petrol Emotion and Screaming Blue Messiahs woulda worked too

xp yeah, both of those bands were more like an outgrowth of REM's out of time/automatic multiplatinum era, kinda?
the new ylt bio covers a lot of this territory.

This interzone sounds like it culminated in Hootie and the Blowfish. They even covered a song by The Reivers, which was quite cool of them.

For what it's worth, the Vivian Girls covered a song by Green On Red.

Toad started in '86 and their debut was out in '89.

1987-1988 was a weird time cuz all my fave bands were putting out albums i didn't like and i would get desperate and buy,like, a gut bank or caterwaul album and get even sadder. just had to listen to kurious oranj over and over again. (was not a fan of blue bell knoll or technique at the time. i came around years later) i actually went and saw a that petrol emotion/spirit of the beehive show! *shudder*

spirit of eden was another saving grace. just played that 400 times in a row when i wanted 80's majik. otherwise, i just listened to rap and metal and old stuff.

ha one of the first CDs i ever won off the radio was that petrol emotion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHl4LZWhklA

what about hunters and collectors? i liked them a lot too. they were all indignant about water and whatnot. i liked that in 8th gr.

pardon the plug but since i just wrote something today that touches on some of this stuff i may as well link it: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/06/alternative_rock_pop_crossover.php

I remember thinking that one James song that was a hit sounded more late 80s even at the time

i remember liking this song a lot hahahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7SxeHvNFek&feature=relmfu

Jangle bands just aren't cool anymore

I think it's come back around, tylerw otm that Real Estate are working this sound right now

GUT FEEEEEELAAAANG

i'm not sure this is what you guys are talking about though
it's way more irritating

For me the center of discourse of this interzone was OPtion Magazine.

but there is a reason why latin freestyle and dance pop from back then is still being written about. it ruled! dee-lite single alone kinda blew away almost any alt rock/college rock of the time that i can think of. and that's just them. there was loads more where that came from. if i named my fave singles of 1989 or 1990 i doubt any goth hairdos or jinglejangle rockers would make my list. unless john cougar counts.

http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/2008-01-24/guadalcanal_diary_Q_flipVflop_thumb.jpg

Fibonaccis...CVB...Men & Volts...Great Plains...Crippled Pilgrims...Thin White Rope...

...The Romans...Proof Of Utah...

not to mention rap singles. oof, fuck a janglerocker. there was soooooo much bad post-newwave/modern rock major label stuff at that time. soooooooooo much. just horrible horrible stuff.

xpost yeah a lot of this stuff isn't being "revived" because it didn't age well. *smh at teenage me liking the Connells*

or on the other hand it seems hard to take a weirdo band like CVB or the Meat Puppets and digest that as an influence in 2012

Yeah Jon, and Forced Exposure (a magazine that ended in the early '90s) too.

all that horrible post simple minds crap. blah. 4000 bands that sounded like late simple minds and the alarm!

so much advertising money spent on stuff like the grapes of wrath and the christians and texas. it was a bleak time.

My interest wasn't really about why it's not being revived but why the tenor of that time in indie rock, the counter-cultural aspect and the seriousness of it, was lost and has remained lost.

it's good to hear confirmation of that -- for a long time i thought i just couldn't find anything i liked very much, and to hear that it was actually all pretty crappy is gratifying, somehow

For me the center of discourse of this interzone was OPtion Magazine.

― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:38 AM (3 minutes ago)

otm. read that thing like the bible. or, well, the reviews anyway...

x-post to Skot--But aren't you getting off topic slightly--you're talking about when the college rock bands signed with the majors and released less interesting stuff (and/or the major label bands slightly influenced by the college rock ones) but not the college rock stuff itself

is there really that much of a distinction to be made?

Expose >>> Hoodoo Gurus

is there really that much of a distinction to be made?

― some dude, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:47 AM (12 seconds ago)

Sure. Helios Creed and Live Skull were not about to get signed to a major label in 1987.

the counter-cultural aspect and the seriousness of it, was lost and has remained lost.

Irony wasn't invented until 1991

This isn't the first time this era's been called an interzone. Here's Tim F on The Lion and The Cobra.

live skull and helios were a hell of a lot more boring by 1987 though.

My interest wasn't really about why it's not being revived but why the tenor of that time in indie rock, the counter-cultural aspect and the seriousness of it, was lost and has remained lost.

― timellison, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:45 PM

You don't think some bands discussed on the Punk not indie thread or even Pitchfork 8.5 and up score rock bands think they're part of some sort of scene or something? Even with the internet and Spotify and smartphones and tv commercials

i mean if you take chrome into account.

Come to think of it, a lot of these labels perished with the music itself (DB, Enigma, Restless, C/Z, and so on).

i did love come. they were post-grunge though. some people got back on their horses post-grunge. didn't love thalia in live skull though.

Sorry that link doesn't work. It's in the poll for The Lion and the Cobra.

enigma put out so much shitty stuff too. even the non-major labels were the pits by 87.

My interest wasn't really about why it's not being revived but why the tenor of that time in indie rock, the counter-cultural aspect and the seriousness of it, was lost and has remained lost.

― timellison, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:45 AM (58 seconds ago)

honestly, i think the countercultural seriousness of that era was channeled into the mainstream by the likes of sonic youth and nirvana, and eventually came to something of a bad end. independence became an alternative, a style, and it quickly came to seem meaningless, its meaningless hypocrisy all the more galling for the countercultural pretenses it wore so proudly. 90s indie hung onto certain "college rock" musical approaches, developed them into something populist, but for the most part ditched the embarrassing politics along the way, and here we are.

Weird thing is I grew up in a small farm town, do I never really *heard* a lot of this stuff, but I read about it in odd rolling stone reviews or spin or option, or - especially - request magazine which you got free at musicland but was surprisingly good I thought

Really loved Thalia in Live Skull. Saw 'em twice and the guitars were incredible, plus they had a really powerful drummer.

Hmm does Eleventh Dream Day fit this?

If they do, then I'd also include Green, who kicked around the Chicago indie scene around the same time.

Like to this day I've never heard guadalcanal diary

Like to this day I've never heard guadalcanal diary

2x4 is nice. Check it out.

enigma put out so much shitty stuff too. even the non-major labels were the pits by 87.

― scott seward, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:53 AM (28 seconds ago)

strongly disagree w this. i could easily list 20 or 30 good-to-great records that came out of the college/indie hinterlands for every every year from 84 through 92.

honestly, i think the countercultural seriousness of that era was channeled into the mainstream by the likes of sonic youth and nirvana, and eventually came to something of a bad end. independence became an alternative, a style, and it quickly came to seem meaningless, its meaningless hypocrisy all the more galling for the countercultural pretenses it wore so proudly. 90s indie hung onto certain "college rock" musical approaches, developed them into something populist, but for the most part ditched the embarrassing politics along the way, and here we are.

I'm not just talking counter-cultural politics, though. I mean, I would agree with you there. But I'm talking more about counter-cultural aesthetics and lifestyle - like genuine bohemianism. That's what I miss.

but for the most part ditched the embarrassing politics along the way, and here we are.

Dude, songs about Central America will never get old.

would kill to have pdfs of every issue of OPtion...

end of the 80's the cool american labels were touch & go and amrep and sub pop and they were basically all preparing the world for grunge.

I'm not just talking counter-cultural politics, though. I mean, I would agree with you there. But I'm talking more about counter-cultural aesthetics and lifestyle - like genuine bohemianism. That's what I miss.

― timellison, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:56 PM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There are totally kids that still do that, like old victorian houses in bad neighborhoods with a couch on the porch and bands practicing in the basement...that never stopped, at least in minneapolis

"strongly disagree w this. i could easily list 20 or 30 good-to-great records that came out of the college/indie hinterlands for every every year from 84 through 92."

i didn't say there was NO good music coming out, but 1979 to 1984 there was something amazing coming out every five minutes. naming twenty good indie rock records for any given year isn't that hard. but it got harder as time went on!

2x4 is nice. Check it out.

walking in the shadow of the big man, too

caterwaul album

A friend reminded me about them just the other day, hadn't thought about them in 20 years. I really liked Pin & Web and they were great live.

Scott otm in that late 80s college rock was indeed a weird time for those of us who had been listening to the "new music" for a decade. It was kind of the tail end of the 'lets get in a van and tour rock clubs' era, or it was for me, and I think the attention shifted to whatever the major labels were signing and MTV was playing, much of which just wasn't good.

if you don't care about genre so much then it doesn't really matter. younger tim ellison should have been buying bohemian jungle brothers records. or one of the four zillion amazing bohemian house music singles that came out between 1987 and 1990.

There are totally kids that still do that, like old victorian houses in bad neighborhoods with a couch on the porch and bands practicing in the basement...that never stopped, at least in minneapolis

Yeah, I don't think it ever stopped either, but the late '80s were a time where college radio rock was a real vanguard for this that had a bit of a zeitgeist to it.

Ah, I was just a kid that liked rock music and I was busy enough!

"But I'm talking more about counter-cultural aesthetics and lifestyle - like genuine bohemianism. That's what I miss."

dude, come hang with us here in western mass. the best farm shares, weed, and basement noise scene on the east coast.

caterwaul album

A friend reminded me about them just the other day, hadn't thought about them in 20 years. I really liked Pin & Web and they were great live.

yeah I was a fan of that band, but that record in particular.

Dude, songs about Central America will never get old.

― kornrulez6969, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:57 AM (4 minutes ago)

yeah, i meant the implicit cultural politics more than the protest songs. you know, "corporate rock still sucks" as an ethos, the naive but reassuring idea that by living a haphazard postcollegiate life and listening to weird music one might strike a blow against empire (or at least prepare to). m@tt's right that that kind of thing never really went away, but it did start to defend its isolation a bit more carefully in the wake of "alternative nation". noize, drones, etc.

i dunno still want to smash the empire, that hasn't died at all

i do, that is

the difference between firehose and the minutemen illustrates how college rock got earnest and dull in the late 80s

i knew people would say nice things about caterwaul. i just knew it.

sad but true xp

if you don't care about genre so much then it doesn't really matter. younger tim ellison should have been buying bohemian jungle brothers records. or one of the four zillion amazing bohemian house music singles that came out between 1987 and 1990.

― scott seward, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:04 PM (3 minutes ago)

i loved straight out the jungle and done by the forces of nature, but you've gotta leave something to catch up on later.

didn't a fair number of college rock bands turn toward hard rock or roots rock as the decade wore on? some convincingly like the meat puppets some not like the dream syndicate

I'm listening to Real Estate right now and it doesn't remind me of college radio 1986-1989 at all. I guess I can see it, in a Pandora "this song is in a minor key, features both electric and acoustic instruments, and is played at medium tempo" kind of way, but you'd never mistake it for something of that vintage. It's too sprightly.

Yeah, there was a lot to catch up on as it was! Like, I really remember buying No New York and Pere Ubu's Terminal Tower comp during these years and Can and the double album Swell Maps comp and it all kind of fit in with what was going on at the time.

^ bought all those albums between 85 and 92

Also, somebody mentioned the Connells upthread and indeed they stand as a very good exemplar of the kind of record that died unnoticed. Except I still stand by my decision to listen to 80s Connells records a lot. Their sound did survive into the early 1990s in the form of the Judybats' superb debut album, and for all I know, it's still hanging on in the college towns of the upper South. I sort of hope so!

And Palace of Swords Reversed!

it just helps if you are an omnivore. people always say that rock was so sad and tired in the early 60's and the beatles made everything right again (just like nirvana made everything right again), but if you were a soul or jazz fan in the early 60's the beatles didn't make anything better for you. you already had it pretty good. so new wave and post punk and college rock started getting tiresome in the late 80's or started losing steam but really there was so much amazing stuff happening it didn't really matter (to me). though like i said i did go looking for some undie guitar fixes (and got burned) but i found a few. then again i had death and grind in my life so i was kinda good every which way. who needs to fret about lesser jesus & mary chain records when there is a new carcass record out?

this was a dull time for a middle school kid (female, no siblings) who relied on the radio, magazines, the library, and occasionally mtv for new information
speaking of omnivorism, i had a lot more fun when i listened to old music during those years (was super into 50s rock) and preferred retro leaning stuff (b52s, etc) because the present was such a bummer (and also that's what the library had)

At least in Miami we had non stop freestyle from 1986 through 1990: Company B, Nayobe, Stevie B, Sweet Sensation pummeling you all day.

(was super into 50s rock)

^^^ totally this for me. Late 80s was when I stopped listening to The Replacements and started listening to Smiley Lewis.

Retromania!

Actually with that in mind where do the Chickasaw Mudd Puppies and the Spanic Boys fit in?

How you know this interzone existed in no uncertain terms? Drivin' N Cryin' actually achieved popularity—something akin to standing thigh deep in the shallow end.

sounds like a Minutemen song

Also if Tim is talking earnestness/seriousness, hard to ignore Michelle Shocked, the Indigo Girls, etc.

I was surprised a few weeks ago to find that Michelle Shocked is still at it. Good for her.

hey jack white made a lot of money ripping the 80's retromania of gun club and flat duo jets.

and 10,000 Maniacs!

hey i heard that michelle shocked is still alive. good one, michelle!

Ha! He actually talks about that in his interview with Marc Maron a couple weeks ago (shamelessly acknowledges doing so, but respects them a lot). xps

to be fair, pixies ripped the retromania of gun club before jack white. so there was already an 80's rip of an 80's retromania act.

I think I was first talking about seriousness because of the discussion of Camper Van Beethoven as whimsical on the other thread. Just wanted to point out their seriousness from the beginning (i.e., not just on the Virgin albums) - musical seriousness and, to some extent, topical as well.

Musical seriousness was kind of key, I think. Like all those groups and artists that were on the SST No Age compilation.

Henry Kaiser and Fred Frith and Steve Fisk and Universal Congress Of fitting in with the scene.

i'm not sure i buy the basic premise of this thread, but i will note that this period is also when a lot of classic amerindie bands made their first shitty records: replacements, husker du, meat puppets, x, etc etc. and though it's easy to make fun of rem in the '90s and beyond, it's also worth remembering that a lot of murmur fans had already given up on them byt he late 80s and accused them, too, of selling out and/or sucking.

every band mentioned in this thread is like the anti-Adam Ant: Serious But Not Desperate

You know, Live Skull's Positraction is a desperate record. Maybe one of the most.

TS: Lone Justice or Cruzados or Drivin' & Cryin' or Green On Red or Del Fuegos or Jason & The Scorchers or Long Ryders or Bodeans?

i will note that this period is also when a lot of classic amerindie bands made their first shitty records

Talking Heads arguably fit here.

xpost
randy travis made better records than everybody in that thread title

You know, Live Skull's Positraction is a desperate record. Maybe one of the most.

no doubt but i wouldn't categorize their junkie scumfuck blare - or any sonic youth derived band - as college rock

xpost
so did george strait. and clint black. and ricky van shelton. and...

yeah i'm not trying to be snobby w/randy travis but these threads remind me of losing interest in the college rock/indie scene in the mid 80s, turning toward R&B rap and country. the "new traditionalist" moment in nashville made country radio very listenable for a few years, even in new york city.

george strait ruled. don't forget keith whitley, reba mcentire and rosanne cash. these were also the years i bought old conway twitty albums for $1

don't forget keith whitley, reba mcentire and rosanne cash

God for a horrible second I thought you said "Roseanne Barr" and I was all 'um.'

Anyway retrocountrymania!

haha ned remember her rendition of the national anthem

i'm not sure i buy the basic premise of this thread, but i will note that this period is also when a lot of classic amerindie bands made their first shitty records: replacements, husker du, meat puppets, x, etc etc. and though it's easy to make fun of rem in the '90s and beyond, it's also worth remembering that a lot of murmur fans had already given up on them byt he late 80s and accused them, too, of selling out and/or sucking.

― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:44 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I gave up on REM by 87, New Order by 87, Replacements by 87, Meat Puppets by 89, Buttholes by 90. Some of these I have since changed my mind about, of course. Seems like there was a while when young me did nothing but by new records by my favorites and hate them.

haha ned remember her rendition of the national anthem

All too readily.

I guess maybe this period was when college rock started to commercialize but before it became a brand ("alternative") and a recognizable radio format, so bands had to sneak onto mainstream rock or pop radio, each in their own way. Also some of the early scruffy pioneers were starting to become more professional, which wasn't always a bad thing (e.g. REM). Also the Smiths broke up.

oh man i've been getting into 80's rodney crowell records i had no idea! so wonderful. and way better than anyone in that twangrock tread title.

i like this cover too where he looks like eddie van halen mixed with rosanne cash.

http://www.countryuniverse.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Rodney-Crowell-ST.jpg

i had one of his early 80's albums in the store for like two years and i finally played it and found out how wonderful it was and as soon as i do someone says hey this is great is this for sale? and i said NO! i was THAT record store guy. in my store for two bucks for two years. you had your chance.

"ain't living long like this" !!

rodney crowell was great until he got too singer/songwriter-y in the early 90s

going back to college rock, crowded house was where i got off the bus. i liked that petrol emotion. for a minute. until i got paid for the review (j/k)

i've only skimmed this thread with half an eye, but maybe a good example of the arty bohemian independence that tim was talking about persisting into the 90s is thinking fellers who had their jangly moments but mixed it all up with post-ubu dada weirdness and a little light noise music

I'm gonna be lazy and just repost something from the rolling punk thread here:

being as old as mr contenderizer I agree w/ his take on indie starting out as a broad umbrella term. in the 80s it just meant bands on independent labels getting college radio airplay, which could be anything from black flag to yo la tengo. the distinction was mainly economic/distribution related, similar to the way any weird bands used to get thrown in a bin called "imports" at the record store no matter where they were from.

if I think about the evolution of the term, the roots go back to late 70s punk bands flirting with major labels - after the labels figured out they didn't know how to sell it and the punk scene discovered it could thrive without big capital requirements, they moved down separate paths. punk got extreme and unmarketable as hardcore emerged. then hardcore bands discovered pot and started getting weird (black flag, dinosaur, husker du, butthole surfers). what I dismissively called "jangle rock" was getting big as well (REM and their progeny - tho in truth I do like a lot of that stuff), a wing of the underground more influenced by the velvets 3rd album and 60s folk rock than the stooges and no wave.

by the mid 80s major labels started coopting the scene. I know that's a loaded term but eh, sympathies are sympathies. husker du signing to warners in 85 was the big turning point, once they went over the wall many followed. this excerpt from wikipedia sums up the cycle for the next 25+ years:

Flip Your Wig became the first album released on an independent record label to top the CMJ album chart, and at year's end, both New Day Rising and Flip Your Wig ranked in the top ten of the Village Voice annual Pazz & Jop critics' poll.

During the recordings sessions for Flip Your Wig major label Warner Bros. Records approached Hüsker Dü and offered the group a recording contract. The band felt it had hit a sales ceiling that it could break through only with the help of a major label. The promise of retaining complete creative control over its music convinced the band to sign with the label.[13] Mould also cites the distribution problems with SST as a reason for the move, mentioning that there would sometimes be no records to sign when the band would show up for promotional events.[14] Hüsker Dü was not expected to sell a large amount of records. Rather, Warner Bros. valued the group for its grassroots fanbase and its "hip" status, and by keeping the overhead low the label anticipated the band would turn a profit.

things got strange in the post-nirvana 90s as major labels snapped up anybody with indie cred, and this was when indie became a code word in certain circles for "biding your time until a major signs you". bands with no hopes of getting signed in the 80s (the wall keeping the rabble out was huge + insurmountable) were suddenly commercially viable. a lot of indie labels were now major label fronts, the same way huge beer companies started putting out pseudomicrobrews. I guess I could've saved a lot of typing and just posted this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwzxH1c3yk0

then the alternative/grunge wave crashed and the scene limped back to its basements and warehouses, and that's when things started getting interesting again to me. indie nowadays is a loaded term with a patina of aspirational baggage. from an 80s perspective pissed jeans and bon iver and sic alps are all indie bands. but if I was headed out to a pissed jeans show and a casual music fan asked me where I was going, I'd be doing a disservice by replying "going to see some indie band". cause they'd probably expect deer tick or arcade fire. you know, that jangle rock stuff. now beat it kid, grandpa's leg is asleep.

― diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Thursday, March 15, 2012 1:21 PM (3 months ago)

george strait ruled. don't forget keith whitley, reba mcentire and rosanne cash. these were also the years i bought old conway twitty albums for $1

Dwight Yoakam!

Boylan Heights by The Connels is a great album.

there are still bands around who are "bohemian" in bent, to use tim's word, like deer tick. they would've been college radio darlings in the late 80s, and they just curated a music fest in PVD that included bands like doomsday student, so they at least appreciate + support stuff that's deeper underground than they are.

but I'm not even sure what we're talking about when green on red, live skull, helios creed, and camper van beethoven get mentioned as examples of a "zone". I mean, they had records next to each other on a college radio shelf in the 80s I guess.

imo there was a period from '78 - '86 where weird postpunk and indie rock flourished, that wave slowly grew and crested and broke. as scott points out, by '87-'88 there were just confused wet ppl left on a beach sifting through broken pieces of things and waiting for the major label lifeboats to save them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_1D-h1aFWg

I'm not even sure what we're talking about when green on red, live skull, helios creed, and camper van beethoven get mentioned as examples of a "zone".

Read fanzines a lot in those days and could totally see someone reviewing records by all of the above in the same issue.

ew -- that Jeffries thing sounds like Iggy Pop meets Bill Callahan

this is kind of silly, and i apologize for all elisions and dubious inclusions, but the list below tries to map out what i think of as the terrain in question: specifically american college-rock-into-proto-indie-into-alternative as defined by some of its most "important" or at least well-known bands and artists. musically, it runs the gamut from audience friendly jangle pop to hairy post-hardcore noise rock and describes the progress of a culture more than any specific sound or approach. i arbitrarily set the start date at 1982 - though it doesn't really kick in until 1984 (not coincidentally, the year i started college) - and let it run up through 1994, by which point alternative rock and indie were starting to seem like separate animals.

1982:
The Dream Syndicate - The Days of Wine and Roses
The Gun Club - Miami
Mission of Burma - Vs.
X - Under the Big Black Sun

1983:
R.E.M. - Murmur
The Replacements - Hootenanny
X - More Fun In the New World

1984:
Black Flag - My War
Black Flag - Slip It In
Butthole Surfers - Psychic... Powerless... Another Man's Sac
The Dream Syndicate - Medicine Show
The Gun Club - The Las Vegas Story
Husker Du - Zen Arcade
Meat Puppets - Meat Puppets II
Minutemen - Double Nickels on the Dime
R.E.M. - Reckoning
Scratch Acid - s/t
The Replacements - Let It Be

1985:
Black Flag - Loose Nut
Camper Van Beethoven - Telephone Free Landslide Victory
Dinosaur - s/t
Husker Du - New Day Rising
Husker Du - Flip Your Wig
Meat Puppets - Up on the Sun
Minutemen - 3-Way Tie (for Last)
Mission of Burma - The Horrible Truth About Burma
R.E.M. - Fables of the Reconstruction
The Replacements - Tim
Sonic Youth - Bad Moon Rising
X - Ain't Love Grand

1986:
Big Black - The Hammer Party
Big Black - Atomizer
Butthole Surfers - Rembrandt Pussyhorse
Camper Van Beethoven - II & III
Camper Van Beethoven - s/t
The Flaming Lips - Hear It Is
Husker Du - Candy Apple Grey
Meat Puppets - Out My Way
R.E.M. - Lifes Rich Pageant
Scratch Acid - Just Keep Eating
Sonic Youth - EVOL

1987:
Big Black - Songs About Fucking
Butthole Surfers - Locust Abortion Technician
Dinosaur Jr - You're Living All Over Me
The Flaming Lips - Oh My Gawd!!!
The Gun Club - Mother Juno
Husker Du - Warehouse: Songs and Stories
The Lemonheads - Hate Your Friends
Meat Puppets - Huevos
Meat Puppets - Mirage
Pussy Galore - Right Now!
R.E.M. - Document
The Replacements - Pleased to Meet Me
Sonic Youth - Sister
X - See How We Are
Yo La Tengo - New Wave Hot Dogs

1988:
Butthole Surfers - Hairway to Steven
Camper Van Beethoven - Our Beloved Revolutionary Sweetheart
Dinosaur Jr - Bug
The Lemonheads - Creator
Pixies - Surfer Rosa
Rapeman - Two Nuns and a Pack Mule
R.E.M. - Green
Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation

1989:
Camper Van Beethoven - Key Lime Pie
The Flaming Lips - Telepathic Surgery
The Lemonheads - Lick
Meat Puppets - Monsters
Mudhoney - Mudhoney
Nirvana - Bleach
Pixies - Doolittle
Pussy Galore - Dial M for Motherfucker
Sebadoh - The Freed Man
Shudder to Think - Curses, Spells, Voodoo, Mooses
Slint - Tweez
Yo La Tengo - President Yo La Tengo

1990:
Babes In Toyland - Spanking Machine
The Flaming Lips - In a Priest Driven Ambulance
Fugazi - Repeater
The Jesus Lizard - Head
The Lemonheads - Lovey
Pixies - Bossanova
Pussy Galore - Historia De La Música Rock LP
Sebadoh - Weed Forestin'
Shudder to Think - Ten Spot
Sonic Youth - Goo
Yo La Tengo - Fakebook

1991:
Babes In Toyland - To Mother
Dinosaur Jr - Green Mind
Drive Like Jehu - Drive Like Jehu
Fugazi - Steady Diet of Nothing
Hole - Pretty on the Inside
The Jesus Lizard - Goat
Meat Puppets - Forbidden Places
Melvins - Bullhead
Mudhoney - Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge
Nirvana - Nevermind
R.E.M. - Out of Time
Sebadoh - Sebadoh III
Shudder to Think - Funeral at the Movies
Slint - Spiderland
Smashing Pumpkins - Gish
Pixies - Trompe le Monde

1992:
Babes In Toyland - Fontanelle
The Flaming Lips - Hit to Death in the Future Head
Guided By Voices - Propeller
The Jesus Lizard - Liar
Jon Spencer Blues Explosion - self-titled/Crypt Style
The Lemonheads - It's a Shame About Ray
Melvins - Lysol
Mudhoney - Piece of Cake
Pavement - Slanted and Enchanted
Sebadoh - Smash Your Head on the Punk Rock
Shudder to Think - Get your Goat
Sonic Youth - Dirty
Yo La Tengo - May I Sing With Me

1993:
Bikini Kill - Pussy Whipped
Built to Spill - Ultimate Alternative Wavers
Butthole Surfers - Independent Worm Saloon
Dinosaur Jr - Where You Been
The Flaming Lips - Transmissions from the Satellite Heart
Fugazi - In on the Kill Taker
Guided By Voices - Vampire on Titus
Jon Spencer Blues Explosion - Extra Width
The Lemonheads - Come On Feel the Lemonheads
Liz Phair - Exile in Guyville
Melvins - Houdini
Nirvana - In Utero
R.E.M. - Automatic for the People
Sebadoh - Bubble and Scrape
Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream
Yo La Tengo - Painful

1994:
Beck - Mellow Gold
Built to Spill - There's Nothing Wrong with Love
Drive Like Jehu - Yank Crime
Guided By Voices - Bee Thousand
The Jesus Lizard - Down
Hole - Live Through This
Jon Spencer Blues Explosion - Orange
Liz Phair - Whip-Smart
Meat Puppets - Too High to Die
Melvins - Stoner Witch
Pavement - Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain
Shellac - At Action Park
Shudder to Think - Pony Express Record

I'm not even sure what we're talking about when green on red, live skull, helios creed, and camper van beethoven get mentioned as examples of a "zone".

Read fanzines a lot in those days and could totally see someone reviewing records by all of the above in the same issue.

― timellison, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:19 PM (6 minutes ago)

pitchfork could cover deer tick, lightning bolt, blues control, and the shins in the same week, I'm not sure that's proof they're related somehow, or that the 80s were particularly evocative of anything. imo it was just a lot harder for indie bands to break into the mainstream in the mid 80s, so creative ppl just festered in their own backwaters until somebody decided they were a "scene".

there's a career path now for indie bands on the jangly/dreampop/rootsy end of the spectrum, and a lot more avenues for them to connect with a broad audience. a band like warpaint prolly would've been a rolling stone footnote in the 80s, like salem 66 - nowadays they can rack up 2 million views on youtube.

1989:
Camper Van Beethoven - Key Lime Pie
The Flaming Lips - Telepathic Surgery
The Lemonheads - Lick
Meat Puppets - Monsters
Mudhoney - Mudhoney
Nirvana - Bleach
Pixies - Doolittle
Pussy Galore - Dial M for Motherfucker
Sebadoh - The Freed Man
Shudder to Think - Curses, Spells, Voodoo, Mooses
Slint - Tweez
Yo La Tengo - President Yo La Tengo

1990:
Babes In Toyland - Spanking Machine
The Flaming Lips - In a Priest Driven Ambulance
Fugazi - Repeater
The Jesus Lizard - Head
The Lemonheads - Lovey
Pixies - Bossanova
Pussy Galore - Historia De La Música Rock LP
Sebadoh - Weed Forestin'
Shudder to Think - Ten Spot
Sonic Youth - Goo
Yo La Tengo - Fakebook

The before/after of when I checked out, p much. (Except for Priest Driven Ambulance)

1990 was painful. By the end of 91 I had heard Laughing Stock and Soul Discharge and didn't miss the interzone at all.

pitchfork could cover deer tick, lightning bolt, blues control, and the shins in the same week

Yeah, but it wouldn't be the same writer!

Anyway, you could do a 'degrees of separation' thing to connect all of those bands. Green on Red started as more of a psychedelic band - add roots and Camper Van Beethoven is clearly in the same ballpark. Psychedelia links them up Helios Creed. Roots doesn't, but once I saw him play as the guitarist in Nik Turner's touring version of Hawkwind and he was wearing a Sun Records t-shirt...

Jams Burke - The Day The Indieverse Changed

haven't dug through this whole thread so i apologize if this has already come up, but the popular art cinema of the late '80s is a bit of an interzone as well - all that pre-tarantino lynchy/cronenberg/burton surrealism feels kind of adrift in the same way for me

basically, i think we're saying that a dude in big pants, big glasses and big hair going to see Wild At Heart with Blue Sky Mining playing in the car has yet to be slotted into the pop culture narrative

WORST of the Best Picture Oscar Noms (Only The '80s Edition)

all that pre-tarantino lynchy/cronenberg/burton surrealism feels kind of adrift in the same way for me

Jarmusch part of this too imo.

i'm gonna put sleazy solo lloyd cole in the interzone too

I'd exempt Demme (too infatuated with received Hollywood forms + undated comedic textures) and Van Sant (his surrealism is rooted in realism).

loooove sleazy solo Lloyd Cole; when it comes to Quine raunch I prefer it on his records to Matthew Sweet's.

me too! "downtown" was also in that james spader movie, so bonus pts for sleazy lloyd

down south this interzone lasted a long time, & maybe it's still going, since most of the bands that broke in the early 90s weren't from down south. like the Connells were the 2nd biggest band at my high school in GA, behind REM of course but ahead of Metallica. & Drivin' & Cryin'! & I think that "locality" is still important down south. when I went to college in Texas everyone was into Tejano as pop, in addition to the jangle. grunge was just developing AC/DC's audience a bit, but it didn't replace it. anyway my jumbled (jangly?) thought is that this interzone is gonna be a bit geographically distinct, & what was the case in greater NYC wasn't necessarily the case in greater ATL. (duh?)

or in other words the Indigo Girls were huge 1989-1992 down there & Matthew Sweet was a pop champion in our own minds.

Hang the DJ: Modern Rock 1986 (Rhino)
1. Panic - The Smiths
2. Bizarre Love Triangle - New Order
3. Cities in Dust - Siouxsie & The Banshees
4. Pretty In Pink - The Psychedelic Furs
5. If You Leave - Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark
6. Don't Get Me Wrong - The Pretenders
7. Peter Gunn - The Art Of Noise
8. Strength - The Alarm
9. Walk Like An Egyptian - Bangles
10. A Question Of Time - Depeche Mode
11. Weird Science - Oingo Boingo
12. Missionary Man - Eurythmics
13. Desire (Come And Get It) - Gene Loves Jezebel
14. Digging Your Scene - The Blow Monkeys
15. Venus - Bananaramas
16. What You Need - INXS
17. Pleasure And Pain - Divinyls
18. Cattle Prod - Guadalcanal Diary

Hang the DJ: Modern Rock 1987 (Rhino)
1. It's The End Of The World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine) - R.E.M.
2. World Shut Your Mouth - Julian Cope
3. Hazy Shade Of Winter - Bangles
4. April Skies - The Jesus & Mary Chain
5. Ask - The Smiths
6. Peace Train - 10,000 Maniacs
7. No New Tale To Tell - Love And Rockets
8. True Faith - New Order
9. Birthday - The Sugarcubes
10. Heartbreak Beat - Psychedelic Furs
11. Fight Like A Brave - The Red Hot Chili Peppers
12. 4th Of July - x
13. Still In Hollywood - Concrete Blonde
14. Litany (Life Goes On) - Guadalcanal Diary
15. What's My Scene - Hoodoo Gurus
16. Seattle - Public Image Limited
17. I Heard A Rumour - Bananarama
18. Understanding Jane - The Icicle Works

Hang the DJ: Modern Rock 1988 (Rhino)
1. Under the Milky Way - The Church
2. Crash - The Primitives
3. Waiting For The Great Leap Forwards - Billy Bragg
4. Mountain Song - Jane's Addiction
5. Orange Crush - R.E.M.
6. Tell That Girl To Shut Up - Transvision Vamp
7. Only A Memory - The Smithereens
8. Chains Of Love - Erasure
9. Need You Tonight - INXS
10. Peek-A-Boo - Siouxsie & The Banshees
11. Balloon Man - Robyn Hitchcock And The Egyptians
12. All That Money Wants - The Psychedelic Furs
13. Stigmata - Ministry
14. Sweet Jane - Cowboy Junkies
15. All Night Long - Peter Murphy
16. Tower of Strength (Single Version) - The Mission U.K.
17. Victoria - The Fall
18. Apron Strings - Everything But The Girl

we definitely have this "'80s indie rock became grunge and KILLED hair metal" narrative and this "hey, new wave!" nostalgia market, so everybody that's kind of not grunge and not new wave has been made irrelevant, except for when some ilxor wants to note that the arcade fire sounds like the waterboys

i.e. me

the day michael azzerad said IRS artists are disqualified from Our Band Could Be Your Life is the day the college rock died

if REM had split in 1996 there may have been a book or two to argue otherwise

(xpost to me)
those three "hang the dj" comps pretty much represent the birth of commercial alternative radio, no? and the aesthetic is way more british/australian/european than they are amerindie or anything else american. "120 minutes" was also born in those three years, for whatever that's worth.

the fact that matt pinfield is synonymous with 120 minutes these days and not dave kendall says a lot

i left a lot of stuff off that list up there (mercifully, perhaps), but feel remiss in not mentioning jonathan richman, flipper, the feelies, the violent femmes, beat happening, jawbox, polvo and a few others.

it occurred to me while compiling it that my list would wind up being overwhelmingly male-dominated, and of course it did, absurdly so. it includes a few bands with prominent female members - for instance X, sonic youth, pixies and yo la tengo - but not many. i perhaps should have made room for the likes of 10,000 maniacs, the cowboy junkies and michelle shocked, but that wouldn't have tipped the balance much, and they were arguably fellow travelers for only a very short while. female-fronted bands and solo artists only seem to assume a central place in the "independent rock" narrative in the 90s, often by forwarding their exclusion (bikini kill, liz phair). it's a self-selected list, of course, but the interzone really did seem to be a boy's club for a while there...

also, this really is white music. the groundwork for the list i posted runs from the velvet underground and the stooges in the 60s to bands like television, the talking heads and the B-5s's in the 70s, along with traditional punk and hardcore. few of the major "interzone" bands show any strong influence from R&B, soul, funk and/or jazz, not even by way of forebears like the talking heads. dance music was mostly off-limits, except as a mocking gesture.

what are Big Audio Dynamite not "college rock interzone"?

ah nevermind, didn't see you limited your scope to a large degree

always wanted to write something positing that Psychedelic Furs epitomized the divide that second-tier bands faced between what they sought (growing mass audience, top billing on a John Hughes soundtrack, money for expensive hair gel) and what they got (cult audience disgusted by big hair and top billing on a John Hughes soundtrack).

it occurred to me while compiling it that my list would wind up being overwhelmingly male-dominated, and of course it did, absurdly so. it includes a few bands with prominent female members - for instance X, sonic youth, pixies and yo la tengo - but not many. i perhaps should have made room for the likes of 10,000 maniacs, the cowboy junkies and michelle shocked,

where are Sinead and Suzanne Vega?

tbf i don't think contenderizer's list is really what this thread started out about at all. It's the gauche crossover shit, not Flipper.

like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS4ALgm6Rsc

any band that is connected to nirvana is not lost in the interzone

There was a counter-cultural vibe to late-'80s indie that got lost at some point in the early '90s, I think. It was really widespread and had a sort of seriousness to it.

― timellison, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:20 AM (5 hours ago)

to return to this, i think "punk rock" helps explain this. almost all the bands in the list i posted earlier got their start in and grew out of more traditional punk and hardcore. even the ones that didn't were steeped in punk culture. camper van beethoven covered black flag and sonic youth just like sonic youth covered the ramones and crime. i'd argue that an identification with explicitly punk music, culture and values is the glue held the interzone together. when american indie and alternative rock shed this connective tissue, becoming things in themselves rather than direct outgrowths of and responses to punk, they lost the the essence of their countercultural stance.

someone does not want to remember the hoodoo gurus

can we just list every band that got college airplay in the 80s and call it a day

any band that is connected to nirvana is not lost in the interzone

― da croupier, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:43 PM

yeah, i agree. i'm just trying to map the interzone (or an interzone) as a product and part of american culture. in that, i'm particularly focused on "college rock", what became "indie rock" and a specifically american sort of postpunk.

that's swell, but you can still find all that shit in SPIN best-of lists, which defeats the whole purpose of pondering what's "lost"

the interzone is everything michael azzerad left OUT

okay, i figured the interzone was the landscape in general, and the lost were what you might turn up under this or that rock. either way...

but you're not discussing the "landscape in general," you're trying to limit it to white american indie rockers everyone still thinks is cool

not at all! i'm trying to reconstitute a culture as it seemed to view itself then, in the moment, not as remembered from here.

i mean, obviously the "lost late 80s college rock interzone" is going to mean different things to different people...

no you're trying to limit it to white american indie rockers that everyone still thinks are cool

1986:
Big Black - The Hammer Party
Big Black - Atomizer
Butthole Surfers - Rembrandt Pussyhorse
Camper Van Beethoven - II & III
Camper Van Beethoven - s/t
The Flaming Lips - Hear It Is
Husker Du - Candy Apple Grey
Meat Puppets - Out My Way
R.E.M. - Lifes Rich Pageant
Scratch Acid - Just Keep Eating
Sonic Youth - EVOL

Nick Marsh (vocals and guitar) and James Mitchell (drums) formed the band and soon recruited Rocco (originally from Wasted Youth, guitar and vocals), and Glen Bishop (bass), taking their name from an American cult movie. They signed to Polydor Records in 1983, and soon thereafter, bassist Glen Bishop left to join Under Two Flags, and was replaced by Kevin Mills (formerly of Specimen).

The label dropped them a year later after their eponymous first album failed to find any commercial success.

In 1985, the band signed to Hybrid Records and released a mini LP, Blue Sisters Swing, which was produced with Craig Leon. The cover image of two nuns kissing resulted in the album being banned in the United States and Europe.[2] Flesh for Lulu then joined Statik records, who released Big Fun City later that year.

The following year, the band signed to Beggars Banquet Records, and their song "I Go Crazy" was featured in Some Kind of Wonderful and saw some airplay on American college rock radio stations. This allowed Flesh for Lulu to sustain a successful tour of the US.

In 1989, "Decline and Fall" followed and became a top 15 hit on the new Modern Rock Tracks chart. The next year, "Time and Space" written by newest member Del Strangefish[3] became their biggest US hit, hitting the top 10 of the Modern Rock chart, but the song failed to chart on any other US chart. The band were dropped again, and dissolved soon afterwards.

The song "Postcards from Paradise" was covered by Paul Westerberg as a secret bonus track on his 2002 album "Stereo". Unfortunately, the 'secretness' of the cover meant zero royalties for Flesh, and as the original publishers remain unwilling to provide any accounting to the band, the real extent of their dues in this instance remain unknown. The Goo Goo Dolls also covered the same song, which will be part of a "deluxe edition" release of their 2010 album Something for the Rest of Us available on the band's website.

i mean compare and contrast that list with the hang the dj comp and this: http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres86.php

i have no memory of flesh for lulu's biggest american hit time and space. but i do think its funny that paul westerberg and goo goo dolls covered the same flesh for lulu song!

no you're trying to limit it to white american indie rockers that everyone still thinks are cool

honestly, i imagine that few people these days think that all those bands are particularly cool. those that do were probably indie rockers in the 80s and/or 90s. the artists i mentioned are those that i remember reading about in option, the village voice, spin, forced exposure and smaller publications back in the day - the bands, at least, that seemed to cross over from one pond to the next. they're the bands that seemed to be treated as "prominent" or "important" by the tastemakers and scene arbiters i was aware of, and i tried hard to read and hear everything. plus they sold well. collectively, i think they do a pretty good job of describing the context in which less well-known artists operated.

also, most everything i've said here has been an attempt to answer timellison's question about the era's lost counterculturalism, so that's steered me away from college rock playlists and toward american postpunk as a culture.

for younger people i knew in philly in the late 80's the stuff to listen to that was current was industrial stuff (skinny puppy, nine inch nails, ministry and wax trax stuff was really big in philly) or grunge and amrep type bands that would play at the kyber pass. people loved when nirvana came to town before they hit it big. people loved tad and other sub pop stuff. mudhoney. this was all 89 and 90. and the hipster older record store people i knew were into their own local bands and the siltbreeze stuff and the whole grifters/thinking fellers/gbv thing as well as noisier like-minded byron coley-approved stuff and, you know, old krautrock and all the same hipster stuff that people like now.

yeah, i left off industrial music in toto, which was dumb of me. also should have mentioned the red hot chili peppers and jane's addiction, as they had so much to do with what happened in the 90s.

people probably still listen to EVOL. i don't get the idea that people listen to the butthole surfers much at all anymore. and they were cooler than cool back then. same with husker du. there is no way husker du mean the same thing to people who first hear them now. i have no idea what they would sound like to a kid today. especially that terrible album.

no you're trying to limit it to white american indie rockers that everyone still thinks are cool

1986:
Big Black - The Hammer Party
Big Black - Atomizer
Butthole Surfers - Rembrandt Pussyhorse
Camper Van Beethoven - II & III
Camper Van Beethoven - s/t
The Flaming Lips - Hear It Is
Husker Du - Candy Apple Grey
Meat Puppets - Out My Way
R.E.M. - Lifes Rich Pageant
Scratch Acid - Just Keep Eating
Sonic Youth - EVOL

― da croupier, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:05 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

honestly, i imagine that few people these days think that all those bands are particularly cool.

― contenderizer, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:17 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

facepalm.jpg

http://obsoletegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wtf-cat.jpg

hey guys remember dumptruck

I saw tad at the revival in philly, too young to get into the khyber. sat outside so many cool shows at the khyber cause I was underage. cop shoot cop snuck me into their show there once. and when I interviewed live skull at the arch st empire they offered to hide me in the dressing room until the show started but I didn't want to get them in trouble.

Contenderizer, why are you trying to needlessly complicate a thread concept that it took everyone else 2 seconds to understand?

Dumptruck was one of the bands I thought of when we first started talking about this earlier.

I was there, in the interzone

hey guys remember the bolshoi

the fact that matt pinfield is synonymous with 120 minutes these days and not dave kendall says a lot

― da croupier, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:33 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^show me a motherfucker in this world that loved swervedriver more than dave kendall

his favorite was naked raygun iirc

Dumptruck was great! But, yeah, they were the band my college radio staff were chanting when talking about bands they wanted to get for spring concert '86.

"I saw tad at the revival in philly"

i saw tad open for gwar there!

you guys really had your finger on the pulse

xp

I was at that show! I have a funny story

Contenderizer, why are you trying to needlessly complicate a thread concept that it took everyone else 2 seconds to understand?

― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:40 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

solitary posts that

bands like buffalo tom were the boring link between REM and wilco.

i know i know someone here LOVES buffalo tom and saw them open up for sister double happiness when they were 12. its okay. they were still boring.

They were super boring, you are otm.

i feel like rolling stone magazine won the war in some ways. they always wanted the blander roots rockers to carry the rock torch and they wanted the goths and freaks and weirdo europeans to go away.

good time to be a hongro though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIU7qSr72a4

there is a reason why so many indie rockers started listening to australian and new zealand bands in the late 80's. they had finally gotten rock there - it takes a long time to travel that far - and their bands were innocent and untainted. nobody had ever needed salvation from kiwis or oz people before!

where do shitty bands like the pursuit of happiness fit in here?

but Midnight Oil's beds were burning

i heartily endorse the resurgence of this sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C596bVFiL1o

tried to find a countdown of cmj's most-played albums of 1986, all i found was wikipedia claiming peter gabriel topped it

but not this sound presumablly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUVWT8tVKyw

plus, you know, you could totally do the flesh for lulu/john hughes thing in a GOOD way too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq2QlGVVvXo&feature=related

i mean basically a little new order/information society/ultravox in a blender and you are good to go. it ain't rocket science.

no ice house! only uh the first album. i think i liked that one.

bronski beat and joe jackson also made the top 20 of 1986, sayeth some wiki scribe

I can buy Joe Jackson as CMJ scion in 1986

I love these kinds of bands: Dumptruck, Love Tractor, Guadalcanal Diary, Slovenly, Angst, etc. etc. . . .

I found a copy of this album on vinyl recently and was really excited about it.

Every era has its second tier or "also ran" bands that are definitely worthwhile if you like that sound.

i'm totally willing to thank grunge for saving us from this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNAELH8WuXI

aw, i like dramarama, but they really made it hard for themselves aesthetically and sartorially

if you watch this its like the band had taken a time machine from 1992 all the way back to 1988! its uncanny! they were true pioneers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0K4L-6znJU&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL1189AFCDB7162981

wait that video just changed. you have to see tosd the wet sprocket 80's style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0K4L-6znJU

basically, i think we're saying that a dude in big pants, big glasses and big hair going to see Wild At Heart with Blue Sky Mining playing in the car has yet to be slotted into the pop culture narrative

i'm pretty sure this was me, let me check my photo album

i keep picturing the singer from harvey danger.

Hang the DJ: Modern Rock 1987 (Rhino)
1. It's The End Of The World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine) - R.E.M.
2. World Shut Your Mouth - Julian Cope
3. Hazy Shade Of Winter - Bangles
4. April Skies - The Jesus & Mary Chain
5. Ask - The Smiths
6. Peace Train - 10,000 Maniacs
7. No New Tale To Tell - Love And Rockets
8. True Faith - New Order
9. Birthday - The Sugarcubes
10. Heartbreak Beat - Psychedelic Furs
11. Fight Like A Brave - The Red Hot Chili Peppers
12. 4th Of July - x
13. Still In Hollywood - Concrete Blonde
14. Litany (Life Goes On) - Guadalcanal Diary
15. What's My Scene - Hoodoo Gurus
16. Seattle - Public Image Limited
17. I Heard A Rumour - Bananarama
18. Understanding Jane - The Icicle Works

It's authentically kind of freaking me out how much this coincides with my actual 1987, down to the presence of songs I think of as weirdo obscuros that no one except me in my school liked but that I was obsessed with ("What's My Scene," "World Shut Your Mouth")

lol @ Bananarama's S-A-W triumph is "modern rock"

pee stain by the maniacs definitely worst thing on there. but only cuz i have no idea what the chili peppers and icicle works songs sound like.

a beautiful sight
we're happy tonight
walkin' in an indie interzone

One thing from this period of college rock that hasn't been mentioned is the groups that had a fun/comedy angle that were pretty popular in that period.

Mojo Nixon & Skid Roper
Dead Milkmen
They Might Be Giants (although they kept on truckin' along and made some $$$ doing tunes for TV etc.)

camper van beethoven

Never heard of 'em.

80s TMBG a downtown performance act, not a comedy act! Replace with King Missile.

Not that they were a straight comedy act, but TMG was definitely 'fun'.

Kimg Missle was fun for that matter too.

yeah they were part of that post-new wave strain of ramping up the levity or 'quirkiness' of things, not necessarily in a conceptual uniform-wearing way like Devo or the B-52s but definitely more overtly wacky and silly

Contenderizer, why are you trying to needlessly complicate a thread concept that it took everyone else 2 seconds to understand?

― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:40 PM (2 hours ago)

dunno how my posting indie thoughts so interferes with the parade of 120 minutes memories

OK I'll give you "fun."

Yeah, definitely. Camper was really of their time and fit in with everything from late-'80s R.E.M. to the weird records that were coming out on SST and other indie labels at the time. College rock changed A LOT in the early '90s and the whole tenor of that time was lost. I don't see that it's come back at all.

― timellison, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:29 AM (18 minutes ago)

like i said, i was responding to tim's observations rather than ned's redirect. and sure, that's OT, so all apologies.

i do think, though, that there have been a few bands & artists in recent years who've played a kind of interzone retro: the gun outfit, milk music, some of those "shitgaze" bands from a few years back.

yeah, i agree. i'm just trying to map the interzone (or an interzone) as a product and part of american culture. in that, i'm particularly focused on "college rock", what became "indie rock" and a specifically american sort of postpunk.

― contenderizer, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:52 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's swell, but you can still find all that shit in SPIN best-of lists, which defeats the whole purpose of pondering what's "lost"

― da croupier, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:55 PM (4 hours ago)

I think I originally used the term "lost" and I was talking about the loss of particular aesthetics through time and not whether some bands were forgotten.

I own two different A Way 12"s by the Bolshoi. Guaranteed floor filler anytime i played it when I dj'd in college. All the way through 93, never failed.

thank god for rap music

hey guys remember the volcano suns

has big dipper been mentioned yet?

has/have

House of Freaks! (rip Bryan Harvey)

this seems like a college rock ZONE

it's a shame college rock doesn't exist anymore, truly a lost era

That's either missing the point or it's a parody of nothing at all.

a little from column a, a little from column b

80s TMBG a downtown performance act, not a comedy act! Replace with King Missile.

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 28 June 2012 02:57 (6 hours ago) Permalink

Not that they were a straight comedy act, but TMG was definitely 'fun'.

Kimg Missle was fun for that matter too.

― earlnash, Thursday, 28 June 2012 03:06 (6 hours ago) Permalink

yeah they were part of that post-new wave strain of ramping up the levity or 'quirkiness' of things, not necessarily in a conceptual uniform-wearing way like Devo or the B-52s but definitely more overtly wacky and silly

― goonrise zingdom (some dude), Thursday, 28 June 2012 03:07 (6 hours ago) Permalink

yeah tmbg represented a turning point as far as the new york scene goes, from postpunk to college rock. compare their sensibility to sonic youth's.

another illustration of the postpunk VS college rock distinction - the "crazy rhythms" feelies VS the re-emerged feelies. it's all about the rhythms. or take a truly lost/under-appreciated band, love tractor. until about 1985 they played largely instrumental rock that was eccentric and completely original. as time wore on they added vocals and more conventional song structures and began to sound like a hundred other REM-inspired southern bands. one more example: the neats, a boston band who played vaguely 60s-ish rock with a little droney atmospere. by the late 80s they were doing bland - or blander - roots rock. the late 80s college rock interzone seems (to me) to be defined by this move toward conventionality/tradition. retromania!

by the late 80s most college or indie rockers sounded like FOLKIES whether or not they played acoustic guitars.

it's not just college rock that entered an interzone in the late eighties; I was thinking of Living Colour, who seem largely forgotten now, b/c their style of play seems very out of the times. but I wouldn't call Living Colour college rock.

Yeah, there was also that pre-grunge "intelligent hard rock" boomlet of bands that got played on some college stations as well as on rock radio. Definitely Living Colour, and also King's X, The Cult, Jane's Addiction, Danzig.

Faith No More too.

That stuff, along with RHCP and Primus, was so damn popular with the hip kids at my schools that when grunge hit it didn't feel like any real change.

yeah, "intelligent hard rock" is a pretty good label; & its interface with college rock was significant, though the scenes were different. like Rush was the patron god-band of the IHR crowd, & Rush was not an indie thing at the time.

if IHR emerged from the interzone it was through the more "intelligent" side of grunge, i.e. Sunny Day Real Estate; which points right to emo so I guess that empire never ended. but Living Colour was coming from a different place than SDRE, b/c not as self-obsessed. Faith No More is def a good touchstone for Living Colour though.

I don't see it as being that big a leap between Living Colour and someone like Soundgarden. What did get lost in, err, college rock metal though was the shredding.

i love those early instrumental love tractor records! and i only heard them three years ago or so. had no idea. i always assumed that they were bland jangle stuff. meanwhile those albums are like american durutti column records or something. i'm glad i heard them. so many bands took any edges off in their quest for beer money.

this is seriously one of my favorite songs of the 80's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibnPPT_sVD4

This was the point (well, maybe 1987 rather than 1986) at which it became an exception for me to find a current rock band (of any sort) I liked, something that's continued into the present. In the first half of the 80s, that was no problem for me.

I heard this song during the intermission of an all ages hardcore show (or something like that) at JC Dobbs (for the other Philadelphiaish posters). I liked it a lot at the time, but find it mostly meh now (particularly thanks to the vocals):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-YCriyEMo

They Might Be Giants (although they kept on truckin' along and made some $$$ doing tunes for TV etc.)

I often wonder how rich they are now because of Mickey Mouse Clubhouse.

ilxor yeti mike made me buy a game theory album via his old chemical imbalance zine and i did not care for it at all.

I kind of remember trying to like that jangly sound, but I could never really get into it, overall.

scott, I ended up buying the Game Theory album and I think I liked it for about a year, but on repeated listens it just sort of crumbled and there was less and less to like about it.

This is really more on the post-punk side of things, but I remember a friend buying this album mostly on the basis of the title, and all of us being disappointed by what it ended up sounding like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NubuRy4xRk

i know what you were listening to back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Dv4gTPbow

i promise i won't post ruin and scram videos.

I'm reminded of all the bands in Athens, GA: Inside Out that aren't REM, the B-52's or Pylon.

What about the Ocean Blue? Would they be considered part of this "scene"?

I happen to really like them.

The semi-affiliated band Riverside seems to fit as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-v4na9cpXg

My pal Aaron, with whom I've been in a band, who sold me a 1973 Rickenbacker bass for $500, and who generally has impeccable taste . . . his favorite bands are Game Theory and Loud Family, both of which I've given a chance, but man.

I hated Pink Slip Daddy.

The intro to "Erica's World" is easily the best part.

I hated Pink Slip Daddy.

I can see why.

Game Theory always seemed like a band I might like in, erm, theory, as I like fey voices and smartypants chord change pop, but I could never warm to them either. Their mention got me thinking about Hex, though (Donnette Thayer and Steve Kilbey.) Listening to a few cuts on youtube. I think I still own their records.

no mention of Let's Active? for shame

this thread's gonna make me dig out my old 'IRS' The Cutting Edge' videotape (complete w/ the classic Austin episode - Zeitgeist, Doctor's Mob, Glass Eye, the debut of Daniel Johnston).

You know, I tried to get into Let's Active, because Mitch Easter's name is on a bunch of records I like. I picked up Cypress and thought it was pleasant, but it kind of lost my interest after the fourth or fifth listen.

Can you recommend something else?

I Just Bought a Let's Active Record. Will I hate it?

i loved the first lets active ep and then the album. actually the first two or three albums are fine with me. i kinda hate what don dixon did to indie rock though! he is one of the culprits i think of later lamer sounding college rock. mitch i will always defend.

Can you recommend something else?

The Windbreakers. They were a jangle band from Mississippi of all places, and their songwriting was as good as anybody from that era. Their music holds up remarkably well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bi9eXl5aW8

i know what you were listening to back then. [pink slip daddy]

i wasn't a pink slip daddy fan, but i kind of liked "take me back to woodstock", their sup pop singles club entry. dumb but fun retro rock shit of the sort that would have found a happy home on sympathy for the record industry. it inspired me to buy the EP that "LSD" appeared on. 10" clear pink wax in a gatefold, with a double grooved B-side that played in reverse (from spindle to rim). every bell and whistle imaginable, but no fucking songs. boo.

juluka: lost in the interzone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpu6dYfZWpY

let's active

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvuetnVoxIs

i definitely think people like chris stamey and tommy keene could have gotten some better breaks and worked with people who really made them sound like a million bucks. instead of don dixon. just listen to that first matthew sweet album for a good idea of how to make someone uninteresting. although that might have been the record company too. i'm no expert. i guess scritti politti fans might have enjoyed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN0kbm_s1hc

man i love that original lets active lineup sooooooooo much. me and my friends were all about those first two records. we were big oh ok fans too.

love that video so much too cuz at the time it was like we had our own homegrown terry hall + 2/3 bananarama.

the nomads (as the "screaming diz busters")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HTUqZN1ER8

i love how australian "every word means no" sounds too. could totally be on my beloved starstruck soundtrack.

otm! i'd never thought of that. could be the (early) hoodoo gurus.

who aren't that great, btw. i'd long had fond memories of their interzone-lost mars needs guitars lp, so i picked up a career comp a while back. pretty dull, overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHvTrfpiTI

^ could be guadalcanal diary, wheels within wheels

I'll still totally rep for Stoneage Romeos, but yeah they really fell off for me after that.

thing is there are tons of aussie garage rockers who did it better. but early on i think the gurus were okay.

their song "what's my scene" is a pretty good template for what people wanted to sound like circa 1987-88. plus, it sounded remarkably similar to the saints album that came out the same year.

thing is there are tons of aussie garage rockers who did it better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q6IwMXJK0M

1985

and i really like some of the saints album! famously on TVT records. "just like fire would" and "what's my scene" were on college radio a ton.

aussies doing it better in 1986:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gir7bw1MwEY

post-birdman interzone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXW-n0OY1xY

hey guys remember the died pretty

This is really more on the post-punk side of things, but I remember a friend buying this album mostly on the basis of the title, and all of us being disappointed by what it ended up sounding like:

― _Rudipherous_, Thursday, June 28, 2012 12:12 PM (2 hours ago)

aw man I loved 9353 sooo much

9353 Appreciation Thread

an acquired taste to be sure tho

hey guys remember CHRISTMAS

inexplicably one of my favorite videos of all time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_xq8HsHDdA

hey guys remember the died pretty

no! i remember that their free dirt got a lot of positive press, but i never found a copy during the window of my active interest, and the follow-ups were always compared unfavorably to it, so they remained a mystery to me. just listened to a few tracks - not bad, similar to the gurus in the combination of jangle and garage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QesuVI-diqE

Never really got into that stripe of oz band, but I do have a huge soft spot for the Saints' Just Like Fire Would

Anyhow, it was the Rembrandts who ensured that jangly college rock could never again return.

hey guys remember CHRISTMAS

weird, i was talking about them on the CVB vs. Go4 thread yesterday. the christmas song i'd like to post, "everything you know is wrong", doesn't seem to be on youtube >:[

Never saw that Christmas video before - hilarious!

"I saw tad at the revival in philly"

i saw tad open for gwar there!

― scott seward, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:47 PM

so yeah, 1989, tad booked two shows that night in philly, early at the revival with gwar and late at the khyber. the revival was all ages so, being 18, I ended up there. pretty sure the serial killers opened (incidentally their former drummer replaced james lo in live skull). I remember standing in the audience next to slymenstra from gwar without her makeup on, she was absolutely stunning and I kept having to remind myself not to stare at her. I'm sorry if I creeped you out, slymenstra. during tad I jumped in the pit and promptly fell down.

a couple days later at maxwells in hoboken I ended up interviewing tad (and his openers, some band called nirvana), he told me that after their set at the revival he was tired and decided to blow off the khyber show. then the guy from the khyber showed up at the revival and was like "what the hell are you doing, I was gonna pay you $150!" so tad hightailed it over to the khyber, played 4 songs, and got his $150.

the next night I was the ritz in NYC for the laughing hyenas/mudhoney/sonic youth show. it sounds a lot more amazing than it was. I kinda felt like stuff had wrapped up in '86 and at that point everybody was running on fumes. or laying the groundwork for grunge with their intelligent hard rock, bleh.

Anyhow, it was the Rembrandts who ensured that jangly college rock could never again return.

It has not been jangly college rock's day, their week, their month, or even their year.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6cevqpKm81qzpiyuo1_400.jpg

ripped this from a billboard issue on google books. You may have to squint, but it's worth it.

Never saw that Christmas video before - hilarious!

yeah, me either! great song too. <3<3<3

wish in excelsior dayglo had been half as well produced as ultra prophets...

Pedantic aside: wasn't it just referred to as "Revival" and not "The Revival." I only ever heard it called Revival (or "Club Revival" in event announcements).

"incidentally their former drummer replaced james lo in live skull)"

rich hutchins! he was in ruin too. and little gentlemen. and of cabbages and kings for a bit too. my friend julie was friends with him. my friend julie played violin on little gentlemen's cover of ultravox's the wild, the beautiful, and the damned on one of their albums in the 80's. they were goth punks.

yeah, i always called it Revival. hang out with the dudes from executive slacks and stuff. still think that Ex Slacks should get more credit for their industrial rock. they did it before ministry or nine inch nails.

aw yeah executive slacks! somebody post "the bus" video.

ruin! I think I still have their album.

executive slacks, 1984. as time went on it got harder to distinguish them from other electro goth beat merchants but that debut LP where they sound like early wall of voodoo covering the first swans EP is some of my favorite shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AV7LcUM2RM

and yeah us rubes from jersey always called it "the revival"... even in print

sorry philly, hope you at least got to see some good NJ shows in the 80s at the city gardens and the maxwells

rich hutchins! he was in ruin too. and little gentlemen. and of cabbages and kings for a bit too. my friend julie was friends with him. my friend julie played violin on little gentlemen's cover of ultravox's the wild, the beautiful, and the damned on one of their albums in the 80's. they were goth punks.

― scott seward, Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:25 PM (48 minutes ago)

he was such a goddamned animal on the drums. james lo is in my top 5 alltime drummers, rich had big shoes to fill when he joined live skull, but he committed himself honorably. the albums don't do his drum sound justice, either. he mashed those things so hard you could see the whole kit shaking when he played.

ok, I'm going now

*switches off interzone light*

Yeah, that was some band. The big change is sound was the guitars - I think they used Rolands in the early days, but switched to Marshalls.

They Might Be Giants (although they kept on truckin' along and made some $$$ doing tunes for TV etc.)

I often wonder how rich they are now because of Mickey Mouse Clubhouse.

― I found him in a Bon Ton ad (Nicole), Thursday, June 28, 2012 12:08 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Malcolm In the Middle theme song to was also TMBG.

At the same time all this was going on you also had the Wax Trax records coming out too.

I'm tempted to poll the top ten of croup's screenshot

TMBG fans are a loyal lot

I'm tempted to poll the top ten of croup's screenshot

at least make it 20, get siouxsie and squeeze in there

30 gets you some random guy voting for dire straits

xpost on Christmas. One of the more annoying things is that there used to be some really nice live videos of the band up on youtube, and they vanished without a trace. Really, really wish I'd copied them at the time...

i have the third christmas album on matador at the store and i've never listened to it. found the first album on vinyl for a buck this year and i was happy. used to have the tape.

this thread is disappointingly devoid of free jazz vibraphone

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513AgmoH8VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

the flip of the "stupid kids" 12" had a cover of "ring my bell"

I'm tempted to poll the top ten of croup's screenshot

at least make it 20, get siouxsie and squeeze in there

Yeah, "The Globe" craps on everything else on that list from a majestic height

Relevant:

http://avc.lu/Og2H8j

And the comments are, well, comments.

Good article!

some of my favorites of these types of bands are on the 80s edition of "poptopia." i don't know their full catalogs very well, but these are mostly good songs...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fR_ULmpoM8I/Tt_4IbNirJI/AAAAAAAAUJk/g4MM-t6MtQk/s1600/Poptopia80s-Back.jpg

(excluding the romantics, utopia, the db's, marshall crenshaw and the bangles, i guess, because those were not really "college rock" bands.. i meant the bands besides those .. i dunno if the plimsouls count for this either but that one song is pretty amazing)

knew translator would be in there somewhere

Mo Better Booze Collapse

Haven't thought of Jason and the Scorchers in years. They played my Grad Night at Disneyland along with the Dazz Band, Krash, Matthew Wilder, Dwight Twilley and Sparks. Quite a lineup.

The mind reels at Sparks joining Dazz Band on stage for a version of "Let it Whip."

What a dream!

that really happened? Dazz Band, Krash, Matthew Wilder, Dwight Twilley and Sparks
?

Surprised that Blake Babies are nowhere to be found on this thread

Picked up a record collection the other day with a bunch of Interzone stuff in it: Fetchin Bones, ScreamingTribesmen, Concrete Blonde, Voice of the Beehive, Lava Hay, the deservedly maligned Hoodoo Gurus. Yeah, lots of that stuff hasn't aged well. It's been a fun nostalgia trip, though.

Deservedly maligned? Hoodoo Gurus are the only one of those bandsI still listen to regularly, and I owned/own many of them. I never get tired of Stoneage Romeos.

Yeah Hoodoo Gurus have aged way better than almost all of the bands from that time.

I think major label alternative from the period ends up being on odd grab bag that doesn't necessarily represent the whole scene very well.