A Guy Called Gerald - Black Secret Technology vs. Goldie - Timeless

BST still sounds great. I bought it a second time, when it was remastered/reissued. Timeless actually sounds anything but (though the title track brings back good memories.)

I probably prefer BTS but a substantial amount of Timeless actually is timeless - esp. "Saint Angel", "Angel" and "Kemistry".

Timeless has a few nice tracks, but as a whole it represents some of the worst tendencies that took over jungle/d&b once it started become arty: overtly long noodling tracks, watered down coffee table/jazzy sounds signifying "deepness", etc. Though of course Goldie took all that's wrong with that album to the next level of shittiness with "Mother", but still, BST is better even with the crappy sound.

Give me Parallel Universe or The Self Evident Truth Of An Intuitive Mind over either of them, though.

LOL tuomas u so crazy

it took me 0.000001 seconds to vote for timeless

a substantial amount of Timeless actually is timeless

not to mention timeless!!

goldie's remix of universal love is better than the universal love on parallel universe, and it also has that problem a lot of 4hero material does where everything just starts to sound exactly the same, detroit synths, tinkling breaks, female vocalist going ahhhh ahhh ahhhh ahhhhh into the wormhole, etc.

it does have "paranormal in 4 form" and some other dope tracks but for whatever reason those tracks don't grab me the way the songs on timeless do. goldie came up with some serious earworm craziness - i've literally had "inner city life" stuck on my head since the instant i saw the thread title.

Yeah the beats themselves on Timeless are super super memorable, they're like hooks in a way that just wasn't the case on Parallel Universe (or, if I'm honest, BST).

LOL at thinking Self Evident Truth is useful for anything except soundtracking a mud bath.

It's been years since last listened to Timeless, but I don't remember the beats on it being better than on Parallel Universe... Anway, if you think PU hasn't got awesome drums, you need to relisten to it, some of the beat chopping on that album is still jaw-dropping. It's true that the tracks on PU are kinda samey, but at least they're not lame.

You may laugh, but IMO Self Evident Truth does some of the things Goldie attempted in Timeless (formal experiments, jazzy and ambient moods) with more interesting and less coffeetable-ish results.

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH

sorry, that duh was directed at the question and you oddball Timeless voters

So this is the tracklisting of the single-disc Timeless:

1 Timeless 21:02
1.1 Inner City Life
1.2 Pressure
1.3 Jah
2 Saint Angel 7:17
3 State Of Mind 7:06
4 Sea Of Tears 12:04
5 Angel 4:58
6 Sensual 8:13
7 Kemistry 6:50
8 You & Me 7:02

Now really, does anyone have any issues with any tracks apart from "State of Mind" and "Sea of Tears"?

So that's like, 75% greatness.

I still do prefer BST probably but this TS is in no way clear-cut.

it's not a question of Timeless being no good, it's a question of it not being Black Secret Technology

Now really, does anyone have any issues with any tracks apart from "State of Mind" and "Sea of Tears"?

Ok yeah, if you swap those two for 'This Is a Bad' and 'Jah the Seventh Seal' off the 2CD version then Timeless would win this - that said, I haven't listened to BST in a while.

Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking.

I need to listen to both again before offering firm opinions though.

I could see voting for the best hour of Timeless (not even sure "Inner City Life" would make that) but neither 1 or 2 CD versions that were actually released were as good as BST.

Haha yeah that seems right to me too.

BST isn't on Spotify but Timeless and man why the fuck don't I listen to this all the time

I mean, fucking Goldie

massive

this is impossible

BST by miles tho the CD versions never sounded half as good as the vinyl copy i had of the first issue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15VGyZ5mUvc

i mean FFS

that's def the best track on BST and it is as good as the best on timeless but i think there's a fair amount of undistinguished stuff on BST

there's a crystalline quality to the whole of BST that "Finley's Rainbow" exemplifies for me but i don't find anything undistinguished on it. maybe it's more of a piece than Timeless which you could read as my positive spin on "samey" if you want

Had BST on this morning for the bus ride to work, apart from it being a more consistent listen than Timeless (there aren't any outright clunkers) I think it wins out for its sense of space - the arranging (if that's the best word for it) has so much depth and detail, just really great sonics. The highlights of Timeless ('Kemistry' and the title suite) are more beautiful than anything on BST though, so there is that.

Never ever got into Timeless, I always heared Goldie as a producer as a bit flat. Guy Called Gerald has been a great producer for a quarter of a decade now.

Ending track on this album so good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TEbqS3Wmnzg

what are the clunkers on Timeless? i'm guessing most people think of the Not DnB tracks (because all the beat-heavy ones seem roughly equal in quality) as the weak links, which seems dubious.

State of Mind, Sea of Tears and You & I are the ones that never really did it for me.

Adrift isn't that great either.

Spring Heel Jack - There Are Strings deserves to get mentioned in the discussion of best DnB LPs of 95. I've played it more than either BST or Timeless.

As a stand alone cut, I could see how Sea of Tears would underwhelm, maybe sound too watered down in the context of its genre. But I do love how spacious the beatless sections are. And I think it fits well as a deep cut in the album.

<3 sea of tears and you & i, state of mind is just meh

Yeah I don't even really take issue with "Sea of Tears", but I see how it might put others off.

"You And Me" is straight fire beautiful though.

State of Mind, Sea of Tears and You & I are the ones that never really did it for me

You & Me, surely? My second favourite on there (after Kemistry).

You may laugh, but IMO Self Evident Truth does some of the things Goldie attempted in Timeless (formal experiments, jazzy and ambient moods) with more interesting and less coffeetable-ish results.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, September 5, 2012 9:46 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

To be fair to this album it goes in a lot harder than I ever remember when it's not actually playing. The ostentatious four minute ambient intro probably doesn't help.

playing "Life Unfolds His Misery" right now and this is an impossible question to answer

Gothian Slip there

surprised nobody's recorded a black metal track called "Life Unfolds His Misery" tho

some dude grunting "CHOKE ON IT" before the drop

it took me 0.000001 seconds to vote for timeless

― the late great

Seconded.

gave timeless a listen for the first time in a while this afternoon and now feel confident about voting for BST.

BST is gonna win on contrarian obscureness quotient and/or finley's rainbow being better than anything else imo

BST doesn't seem particularly obscure at this point though - its rep has grown a lot since / coinciding with the reissue a few years ago.

Like, both albums ended up on FACT's 100 albums of the 90s list, but BST chimes in with that entire sensibility (i.e. the one that considers all uk dance music as an idea to be reverse engineered from Digital Mystikz) better than Timeless does (though that disparity disappears if we're talking pre-Timeless Goldie or the first four years of Metalheadz) - and indeed BST was number 4 on the list...

It's the same dynamic that makes Groove Chronicles more feted today than MJ Cole.

its rep has grown a lot since / coinciding with the reissue a few years ago.

Did it's rep grow as a result of it not being in print, though? Timeless has been dollar bin fodder for ages; less mystique

Yes, I think that's right too. I think that mystique is like pressure that builds and is released at the time that the album then becomes readily accessible again - like a spring.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

mystique is like the perfect goldie tune title too. i've never really been able to get past the sludgy sound of BST. Jah the seventh seal is the best thing for me on either record. can't believe someone called goldie's production flat upthread, that track sounds like it's coming from another dimension.

"Jah The Seventh Seal" is great but I think I would always have to go with "Angel" or (possibly)
"Kemistry" as best - the incongruous mixture of light and dark that Goldie managed on those tunes seems like his greatest contribution IMO.

yeah what as it bjork said about jungle? "exploding with fierce joy" or something. describes a lot of timeless, imo

Seriously I always try to imagine what it would have been like to hear "Angel" in 1993, what a mindf**k it would have seemed.

ha, my love of jah the 7th is probably a by-product of Kodwo Eshun's description of it more than anything else. i really need to listen to the whole thing again. i remember my mad anticipation of the release though.

The only way I can really conceptualize this is that on the one hand Black Secret Technology might be the best album ever, on the other hand Saint Angel is the impossible groove.

Yeah "Saint Angel" is insane isn't it, jungle idealised?

It's hard for me to even describe, but the way the beat sort of runs on, stutters and keeps falling down does my head in.

uh-uh--uh!

exactly!

i think this specific trick was very influential on ill blu, for one, I always think of it as the faltering gallop.

although it's less streamlined than that on "saint angel"

it WAS a complete mindfuck tim

my brain didn't even process jungle as music when i first heard it in 93, it just sounded like someone had strung neon firecrackers all throughout a two bad mice track and was detonating them every ten seconds

Regardless of the ambition (double album, extra long tracks, self-delcaring mainstream-bustin' genre flagbearer) I felt the sound design on Timeless was a benchmark for years and still its saving grace, altho no more than FSOL at the same time. It's only the thematic ideas being often so overbearing in new-agey-ness (dolphins maaan) that hamper it (again see FSOL and also BT's 'Ima' which was like a deep house equivalent to this in a few ways), plus this general reaction people often have against prog-like epics compared to something seen as edgier (Timeless is simultaneously aiming at innovation but also a jazz-based musical obedience probably down to the influence and encouragement of 4Hero) and more instant. Possibly some prefer BST because it sounds more 'bedroomy' and more raw yet more 'secretive' - less personal (Gerald, unlike celeb-in-waiting Goldie, not wanting to tell you all about himself, heart on sleeve).

and also BT's 'Ima' which was like a deep house equivalent to this in a few ways

This is so true! Although in my memory (I no longer have my copy) 'Ima' was more proggy than deep? Maybe deep-prog.

ha, my love of jah the 7th is probably a by-product of Kodwo Eshun's description of it more than anything else. i really need to listen to the whole thing again. i remember my mad anticipation of the release though.

― jed_, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 01:36 (12 hours ago) Bookmark

Dillinja's Jah the Seventh Seal is a magnified detail from the Timeless
canvas, a slowed-down blow-up of one hyperdimension. Breaks become chains as time turns to metal. Rhythm phaseshifts from needlepoint to
industrial in a war between machine lifeforms on the metallic plateaux.

Two drumbreaks are processed until they rattle like chrome snaketails,
panning in opposite ways around your head. When they meet they
swallow each other and reverse backwards. Simultaneously, machinic
groans and wrenching metallic sighs heave and drift across the
overlapping orbits of both breaks.

These arhythmic noises compel a kind of bodily seizure, an agonizing
muscular crisis, as if the motor coordination needed for walking, let
alone dancing, has just crashed from too much sensation. The seething
metal fatigue of Jah the Seventh Seal induces outbreaks of literally
headwreckin' synapse-warping. Your head becomes this giant muscle,
this mindless, agonized organ that doesn't know where to put itself.

(d/led pdf & ocr, don't worry i'm not insane)

This is so true! Although in my memory (I no longer have my copy) 'Ima' was more proggy than deep? Maybe deep-prog.

I would have definitely tagged it as prog, I mean " Deep Skies"

Lol at that Kodwo Eshun description... I tried to read More Brilliant Than the Sun at least two times, but each time I just couldn't go on after the first 50 pages or so. It felt like he had some interesting ideas, but they were buried to deep within his post-futurist techno poetry.

congrats at least on not saying THR RHYTHMATRIX kodwo

does he go on to talk about "the paranormal in four form" or is that a different chapter?

post-futurist techno poetry good, intersting ideas bad

Timeless just edges it over BST for me, but re: the discussion upthread you can count me in as one of the weirdos that prefers Parallel Universe to both.

weirdo

i feel like BST and parallel universe are more "subtle" in the mike skinner sense of the word (ie "boring")

whereas goldie's grabs you by the neck and says DRUM AND BASS MOTHERFUKER, HOUR LONG SYMPHONIC SUITE TO FOLLOW!!!!!!!!!

BST feels to me that it has aged in a different way from Timeless; like BST has bits where I think "I can see how this appealed so much to me" while Timeless has parts that still just grab and appeal in the same way, even though they don't have that same impact of the strange they did then.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I should've kept this poll open longer. Or perhaps it's that I regret having voted with my gut, not having actually listened to Timeless in years. I listened to Timeless so much in the mid-90s, that I kind of exhausted all the sense of wonder it had for me. I came to BST very slowly, a track here, a track there, over the course of many years. Eventually, I consumed it whole and gushed at how raw and enigmatic it seems.

I also recall Burial referring to it as a major influence around the time he was making Untrue (I think). The inspiration seems pretty clear, and adds a poignant layer to the legacy of BST.

Timeless has come to be so heavily associated with going to raves and driving up the coast, and doing all kinds of things in the 90s, that it's harder for me to listen to with fresh ears. And as nashwan touched on, Goldie's future celeb status also placed too many concrete associations in my brain when I listen to it.

I initially expected results like this, but after hearing so many spirited defenses of Timeless, expected this to be much closer - and wasn't actually sure which would come out on top.

Damn, thought I'd have the chance to sneak in and throw a vote Timeless' way, took way longer than I thought to dig up my ropey CD of BST. FWIW I think Timeless has regained a lot of mystique (or at least I've seen a lot more referencing of it late, inc. an installation playing "Mother" heh) - the whole new age-yness seems to vibe in w/a lot of art school kids/internet art/etc in the uh Lamp zone atm, lot of ~pristine~/dolphins/etc aesthetics going around.

welp

now this is happening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdF5_6pYTbE

Listened to Timeless on the way to/from class last night. Still a mindfuck.

Cliche but It really needs to be listened to loud.

that's because it's mastered by dilinja and optical!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpMY6B1vzow

actually the optical thing is a lie

it was rob playford, not optical

though i feel like optical did some sick engineering work before he made his name for himself

the pre-dolphin song breakdown at 2:50 in universal love is the very definition of aquatic jungle

what engineering work did optical do pre "To Shape The Future"?

i'm talking out of my ass, probably

i think he did some ed rush and grooverider stuff

and dom & roland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L94u1h0Rnx8

groove called that track "more devastating than the borg"

optical two years before that track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrAqd98hnbw

the way the drums go crazay from 1:00 to 2:00 in the boymerang remix is just so fucking next level

and the bassline at 2:20 is just ... fucking sick

youtubes don't load for me at work - what's the d&r track more devastating than the borg?

For what it's worth, this thread has convinced me I should give Timeless another try. At the time I was so underwhelmed by all its new age cheesiness, especially compared to earlier, awesome Metalheads singles, that I haven't actually listened to it since the 1990s. I think these days I have a much higher tolerance for cheesiness than I had back then.

yeah i don't feel like either record loses at the expense of the other, mostly this thread has just made me wanna dig up more of the 90s stuff i've forgotten, also d'n'b 4ever

FWIW I think Timeless has regained a lot of mystique (or at least I've seen a lot more referencing of it late, inc. an installation playing "Mother" heh) - the whole new age-yness seems to vibe in w/a lot of art school kids/internet art/etc in the uh Lamp zone atm, lot of ~pristine~/dolphins/etc aesthetics going around.

― etc, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:14 (7 hours ago) Bookmark

idk if i'd have put it quite on the nose as this (not that you're wrong either mind) but i def agree timeless feels alive and like it still has a relevance compared to bst and indeed p much any of its dnb time capsule contemporaries

obv that is not a value judgement (although i like new things so for me it is)

also i am the sort of reprobate that will try and air guitar to 'sea of tears' so ymmv

Tim - boymerang's "still" VIP (optical / Dom & Roland mix!!)

single disc of Timeless is practically worthless

At the time I was so underwhelmed by all its new age cheesiness

it doesn't really have that much of this tho does it? Sea Of Tears may be the only main offender but it still has one of the greatest loop-based openings ever. most of the albums darts between intense brutality and jazzy noodling, not whales n' crystals.

Well, by "cheesiness" I was also referring to the jazzy noodling.

"sea of tears" is the shit

RIP diane charlemagne :-(

^^^^^^

But also here was a bit of offhand OTMness from me several years back (bolded):

Like, both albums ended up on FACT's 100 albums of the 90s list, but BST chimes in with that entire sensibility (i.e. the one that considers all uk dance music as an idea to be reverse engineered from Digital Mystikz) better than Timeless does

timeless still >> bst

bst sounds like it was recorded through a cardboard tube

there's like three different mixes of BST, though, right?

or "masterings", whatever

i have two of them, the CDs from 95 and 96. the two of them sound objectively bad. i see they were remastered again in 2008 and 2012. how do the new ones sound? better, i hope.

I haven't been able to find a copy of anyversion for a reasonable price.. Timeless sets such a high bar for terrific production though, imo, i can't really criticize BMT for not sounding so crisp and bright or whatever. I actually kind of like the "murkiness" of BST, it's like there's a light mist falling on everything. I might prefer 28 gun bad boy, dunno if that's a challop or not.

aw jeez @ everyone who doesn't care for "sea of tears" in this thread

i fucking LOVE "sea of tears"

I have hippie type feelings about Inner City Life related to Buddhism and and life/death and the cosmos and stuff

I've always found BMT impenetrable (and it sounds like shit). Timeless gets my vote.

I love taking sides threads like these that foster enthusiasm and good discussion and stuff.

Also, "Finley's rainbow" is so not the best song on BST, that's as abhorrent as saying "frontier psychiatrist" is the best avalanches song

Except Finley's Rainbow is awesome

It's just not the best

I have the BST mp3s from bleep.com that got released in '06 that I assume are basically the original CD versions and the '08 CD version. The '08 version has MUCH more bass, and it sounds cleaner overall. I had actually kind of forgotten how much different the bass is since I don't really listen to the older version anymore.

> RIP diane charlemagne :-(

what the...

The '08 version has MUCH more bass, and it sounds cleaner overall. I had actually kind of forgotten how much different the bass is since I don't really listen to the older version anymore.

I have the 1996 version of the album (the one with the colourful cover) and the 2008 remaster on CD, and I can't really hear much difference in the bass...? The bass is already super boomin' and deep in the 1990s release, it doesn't sound like Gerald did that much to it with the remaster. The main difference between the 1996 and the 2008 versions seem to be that the samples and high-end synth sounds are kinda crisper, but even with those the changes aren't dramatic or anything. Things like the "ooh, energy, I feel your energy" sample on "Energy" still sound muffled on the 2008 version. TBH, like someone said on the other BST thread, it sounds like Gerald mostly just upped the loudness level with the remaster. If you listen to the original side by side with the 2008 and raise the volume on the former so that it matches the higher loudness of the latter, the differences are pretty minor.

Hmm, reading that other thread, some people seem to be saying that the mixing/mastering on the 1996 version was already changed from the 1995 version... I've never understood that this was the case, I thought the 1996 version was simply reissue with some tweaking of the tracklist. Can anyone who owns both of these tell me if there's a difference in sound between them?

The 1995 version has this cover:

http://vinyl301.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/front1.jpeg

The 1996 version has a different cover, and it also replaces "Voodoo Rage" with "Hekkle & Koch" and "Touch Me":

http://buildanddestroy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/R-105517-1190750594.jpeg

The 2008 remastered version has the same cover and tracklist as the 1995 one.

Timeless just edges it over BST for me, but re: the discussion upthread you can count me in as one of the weirdos that prefers Parallel Universe to both.

― Grimes, Shoots & Leaves (Mr Andy M), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 20:09 (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

God, what the hell was I even on back then?

Non-italicised bit still stands though.

Every sleeve variation is awful. Even Master P had better album covers in the 90s. Parallel Universe and Jacobs Optikal Stairway LP are both strong contenders for best dnb statement albums from the mid90s.

also i am the sort of reprobate that will try and air guitar to 'sea of tears' so ymmv

― r|t|c, Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:30 AM (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

:D

Literally the very best thing you could do today is buy all the “Producer’s Cut Series” tracks on A Guy Called Gerald’s Bandcamp. Seems to be all 94-95 era tracks and i would say in aggregate is actually superior to BST (no “Nazinji-Zaka” or “Glok (Remix)” though).

OMG

Here's hoping he unleashes 28 gun bad boy + all those white labels/acetates

but damn thank you for the tip

28 Gun Bad Boy isn’t up there but is available for streaming on Apple Music? Odd.

Anyway I think a lot of these are in fact white label releases - e.g. I know “Kicking Da Jungle Beat” was one of the white label tracks he put out in 1994.

Probably exaggerating above about these being better than BST but it is all great and sometimes spectular - I particularly like “Beat Dis” (probably 1993?).

i was rereading this thread last night and realized i've only ever known the single disc version of timeless. correcting this atm

I need to revisit both of these. I feel like I wasn't quite ready for them in my dumbass teens.

Timeless (always the double LP version for me) would get my vote quickly but am quite interested in which version of BST stands above (presumably the one on bandcamp?). Can confirm that my CD copy is very tinny and bass lacking.

I've probably listened to LTJ Bukem's Producer 01 the most, come to think of it.

I've never managed to crack Black Secret Technology despite having had it in my collection for years. Will give it another go.

btw i would like to make it clear that anyone who would dare diss "you & me" itt is dead to me

tuomas debunked this a few years ago i guess, but i have the 2008 version of bst and i have never thought "oh this lacks bass." it is still a really weird-sounding record though

(feature not flaw imo)

The only version of BST that sounds worse than the others is the second mid-90s CD version with the weird pink-ish cover. All the versions with the original purple-ish artwork are fine, though the arrangements have always sounded a bit quiet compared to most D&B even from that era, so a lot of people keep waiting/looking for a louder version that does not and will never exist.

"You and Me" is lovely.

I think there's really no filler on the single-disc version of Timeless. I would have once put "State of Mind" and "Sea of Tears" in that category, but i'm older and wiser now.

Thinking about the D&B rankings on that Fact 90s list again. Remove the surrounding noise and it's:

BTS > Icons' 'Emotions with Intellect' > Timeless > DJ Krust's 'Genetic Manipulation' EP > Photek's 'Modus Operandi' > T-Power's 'Self-Evident Truth of an Intuitive Mind' > Source Direct's 'Exorcise the Demons.

I mean this is Fact, so go figure, but I think this ranking says a lot about weird retrospective views of 90s D&B.

Like, that Icons album is fine, but just feels really surplus-to-requirements for me, and elevating it feels like a sop to a 'real heads know' notion of the genre that gets things entirely the wrong-way-about - like, yes, the album was unavailable for ages, but arguably that's more because no one particularly needed a pretty and intricate but personality-free mid-90s jungle album at a time when the music was already pivoting to head in another direction. It's actually very much the ambition and risk of 'bad taste' that infects albums like Timeless and New Forms that makes them so valuable in the context of a genre that was primarily dancefloor/singles/DJ-mix focused.

I've come around to liking 'You and Me' and the other tracks I dismissed back in 2012 (apart from 'Adrift'), would definitely vote for Timeless today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FR0thRsgMY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7w-grvkXtQ

The only version of BST that sounds worse than the others is the second mid-90s CD version with the weird pink-ish cover. All the versions with the original purple-ish artwork are fine, though the arrangements have always sounded a bit quiet compared to most D&B even from that era, so a lot of people keep waiting/looking for a louder version that does not and will never exist.

I dunno, as I mentioned upthread, to me the 2008 remaster sounds pretty much exactly like he added some loudness to earlier version.

Also, if you have both the 1995 version (purple cover) and the 1996 version (pinkish cover), does the latter one really sound different? I only own the pinkish 1996 disc and 2008 remastered disc, but I've always thought the pink 1996 version is simply a reissue of the 1995 version with a tweaked tracklist, not a remaster?

Manchester store takes a side.

https://boomkat.com/products/timeless-25-year-anniversary-edition

(last paragraph of the product description is what I refer to btw.)

These are the VIPs and mixes on the third disc.

Timeless (Instrumental)
Kemistry (VIP Mix)
Angel (Grooverider Re-edit)
State Of Mind (VIP Mix)
Still Life (VIP Mix)(The Latino Dego In Me)
Saint Darkie
Inner City Life (4 Hero's Part 2 'Leave the planet mix')
[re:jazz] - Inner City Life
Sensual

tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimelesssssssssssssssssss

Love this thread, found it while listening to BST when thibking about awesome 90s stuff other than er, Be Here Now and Urban Hymns.

My opinions in this thread from 2012 were quite wrong reading back! Timeless is fantastic.