Best Music Writing 2012

http://funboring.com/bestmusicwriting

anybody know where things are with this?

@musicwriting is the official twitter, can check the feed and see if there've been any updates there

thanks.

i looked and it looks like everything else BUT is being discussed

hmmmm. Anything new?

DA CAPO BEST MUSIC WRITING 2013

Did anyone talk to Daphne at EMP NY and ask her what's up?

you could always email http://www.feedbackpress.org/about-feedback-press/contact-us/

direct tweet didn't work, so may as well email

No response so far

Still nothing

wow bro

I give up. I thought my attempts to contact her were written politely.

I gave up a long time ago

Ann Power and M. Matos are listed on the Feedback board. I guess someone could ask them, if they know. Or anyone who gave $ to their kickstarter campaign.

i just emailed someone i know on the editorial board last week and she's as mystified as everyone else (apparently they got paid though)

x-post--Ann Powers I mean

I thought some folks here might know Daphne Carr from EMP conferences and such. But no one is saying anything.

I know her! she's great. so are ann and matos.

Not denying anyone's "greatness", we just want to know the status of this book. Maybe they'll tell you?

she hasn't posted on facebook in a long time. she seems really occupied with occupy. I dunno? when do these books usually come out?

fall of the following year (this should have been out in Oct/Nov 2012).

So, what happened here?

Did the series die?

It's a year later and Kickstarter backers haven't received any thing.

I wish someone would have asked Daphne at the New York EMP

as far as i know it's dead and gone but i don't know that from a direct source

there were two $500 backers and one $1000 backer, yikes

*Da Capo Best Music Writing 2007 Book*

I want to give the benefit of the doubt, but >1 year without updates is concerning.

Daphne is in danger of being reported as violating the Kickstarter policies...

I gave money to this, but I've never actually read up on their policies. I'm assuming its written in there somewhere that if the project isn't produced within a certain amount of time, they have to refund the donors?

Can Kickstarter refund the money if a project is unable to fulfill?

No. Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds as transactions are between backers and creators, and creators receive all funds (after fees) soon after their campaign ends. Creators have the ability to refund backers through Amazon Payments (for US projects) and Kickstarter (for UK projects).

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics#Acco

I'm assuming its written in there somewhere that if the project isn't produced within a certain amount of time, they have to refund the donors?

lol

Someone should get a comment from Kickstarter about this project. Kickstarter has a "report this project" link where one can file a complaint.

if you read that vice article though it seems that kickstarter has a written: "we got our cut lol it sucks to be you" clause that people agree to.

what could kickstarter even do about it, aside from banning her from doing additional projects on their site in the future

I guess.

Weird that no other NY music crit writers have seen her around. Or maybe they have and don't want to write about it

well whiney was rantily defending her on twitter last night so maybe they're even on-side with her pitiful behaviour here

btw contributors got an email last night saying the book was cancelled (duh) so obviously the vice story galvanised her into getting it together to type the couple of paragraphs that had been beyond her for a year

dunno whether people who actually shelled out cash got an email or what it said w/r/t where their money is

interviewed here for an occupy site:

http://attheheartofanoccupation.blogspot.com/2013/07/daphne-carr.html

i love michael gonzales (today on facebook. hopefully he won't mind):

"After having my work cited by the Best Music Writing series three years in a row, I finally made the final cut with my Complex.com piece "Why Heavy D Matters." Over the last year I've inquired about the book, but none of the judges seemed to know what happened to the project or the editor. Of course, this isn't a race issue, but I'm sure if my Black ass had disappeared with $17,000, a whole lot of somebodies would've come looking for me a long time ago. I'm just sayin'..."

Pretty reprehensible behaviour - the no-contact/drop-off-the-earth thing, not fucking up the Kickstarter plan.

but hey she's nice and smart! so it's ok!

lol whiney's argument is such pisspoor wagon-circling

the sooner content farming wipes out pathetically delusional fucktards like him the better

The problem with failing at your Kickstarter is that it should resolved privately, a message from Kickstarter saying "you didn't fulfill your obligations, return the money now thank you" instead of this stupid public tar-and-feathering

Kickstarter doesn't give a shit - they're a for-profit company that's busy making millions off a sagging creative economy.

What was the band that Yancey S. and his buds wanted to support that started the whole company anyway?

xp So is Factor, tho

Kickstarter doesn't pretend to be anything other than a conduit. Idk if you raise the money and fail to fulfil your obligations, you takes yr consequences

seeing some stuff on twitter indicating she's just sent a note to donors saying they'll be refunded?

Yeah I was just noticing that.

email sent to backers ten minutes ago

I'd like it if the consequences were a quiet "return the money pls" instead of Twitter rants, whispers of "drug problem?" (Deakin), fucking VICE magazine. Anyway

she intends to pay back all backers out of her own pocket

http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/mediawire/222036/daphne-carr-says-shell-repay-backers-of-fizzled-book/

This is a big disappointment :( :( :(

i forgot i backed this until i just got the apol email. the weird climate around this thing got a bit much, but i wonder if w/o the vice story or at least some sort of public pressure she'd have been able to overcome the mental block of having to admit failure. the frustration wasn't that it flopped (that's a disappointment, but eh -- the finances never looked right on this thing) but rather the lack of any communication. & if you don't communicate, people are going to make up stupid theories. that's just how they work.

retrospectively i'm disappointed because i signed up for a tote, which would have been nice. but i didn't even remember i signed up for a tote, so i can't be _that_ angry about it.

plus since i signed up for the tote i've gotten at least two free totes as promo schwag, and i have lots of bags honestly. it's just a bag.

This is only one of the Kickstarters that I've funded that hit its goal and never delivered. This is how Kickstarter works, and it's worked this way for four years. I'm sure Daphne is more upset and under more stress about this than I am about my $30.

And hey: she's going to send out the list of official selections, which has value by itself. That's all I was looking to get out of this.

i understand why some were quick to project, but i think the reason most critic-types (myself included) were being quiet about this is because someone they were friendly with did something that was fucked up, embarrassing, and also concerning. whiney aside, it's rare one responds to that by being really loud on twitter, either to defend or complain about what happened.

also while 17k was missing, most people only gave $20-25 bucks, so it's not like there was a lot of individual financial impetus to raise a stink.

“I have done the number crunching and given my current revenue streams it should take about three years of monthly payments to backers.”

This is honestly the only part that bugs me. I didn't contribute, but as someone who put together an anthology (that Daphne contributed to, btw), I feel like you don't get to spend that money (in my case, an advance from Da Capo) on food, rent, Netflix, weed, etc. You put it in its own bank account and use it for project-related expenses only. If this project never went anywhere, that money should have just been sitting there untouched, ready to be sent back to the donors.

I'm just bummed I won't be getting a batch of dirty limericks about dc Talk.

^ yes. (xpost)

People say this as if she's making a huge sacrifice: She intends to pay back all backers out of her own pocket

People gave her $20 and $30 and $500 and she put that money into her pocket. So it makes sense that she would pay them back out of it.

I do feel sad for her if she had already paid various other co-editors etc, and is now having to repay that as well.

So, the money. The $15k that I had hoped for was money I knew I needed to produce only the intellectual property for the title -- editorial stipends, administrative staff, and payment of reprint license. To my grave error this was not a realistic number -- the reality is that it would take another $10k to produce that property, and another $10k to produce and publish a book. I had intended to raise additional funds in pre-sales, but as the project stalled I thought it dishonest to move forward in any way with money.

I have no idea what percent of the money was paid out/pocketed, and I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be wagging fingers (esp if they lost money), but considering editors aren't complaining about not getting paid, it does suggest she didn't run off with the wad.

from these failed kickstarter stories it seems like smaller-scale stuff like this only works out if you basically make everyone work for free until you ship. if you allow any overhead expenses at all, they tend to eat up the cash before you can actually produce product.

The culture of vice magazine and tweeto-da-fé can get pretty gross but yknow what $17k is a lot of money that might have stayed disappeared without said culture

Then again why do I need to have an opinion on this man I'm turning into treezy

from these failed kickstarter stories it seems like smaller-scale stuff like this only works out if you basically make everyone work for free until you ship. if you allow any overhead expenses at all, they tend to eat up the cash before you can actually produce product.

also, thinking pre-sales will save you ignores the fact that kickstarter donations ARE basically pre-sales

Re her reference to "dishonesty", disappearing for a year and spending that money was somehow honest? I and others emailed her politely long before the Vice article came out and she ignored the messages.

She was occupied

oh for fuck's sake. the descending of the vultures here is and remains really gross and I am disappointed in basically everyone for doing it

who wins here: 20-year-olds who fancy themselves the crit game Julian Assange; other 20-year-olds who can afford another six-pack now. who loses here: basic assuming of good faith?

^^

Tbf per curmudgeon a simple response might have indicated good faith

This whole thing is a bummer tho I liked these

katherine otm obv

a silent year's grace isnt good faith enough, shame on all u kneejerk vultures

The culture of vice magazine and tweeto-da-fé can get pretty gross but yknow what $17k is a lot of money that might have stayed disappeared without said culture

this is basically the thing, isn't it?

I feel like you don't get to spend that money (in my case, an advance from Da Capo) on food, rent, Netflix, weed, etc. You put it in its own bank account and use it for project-related expenses only. If this project never went anywhere, that money should have just been sitting there untouched, ready to be sent back to the donors.

for all we know what she has already spent - which she's going to be paying back - was used on project-related expenses. I seriously doubt the money came in and she just kicked back and did no work on the project, engaged no-one else to work on it, did nothing towards the setting up of the publishing company that would have required money, etc etc etc.

also ppl come on $17k is not _a lot_ of money. not when u can step up your game and make $94k with bennies.

xp-to-self
like, it seems like she planned badly and then it made her full of terror and panic and she couldn't think about it and so on. But I doubt she realised how badly she'd planned until she was quite some way into producing the book, a process which will have eaten up a lot of the money.

"like, it seems like she planned badly and then it made her full of terror and panic and she couldn't think about it and so on. But I doubt she realised how badly she'd planned until she was quite some way into producing the book, a process which will have eaten up a lot of the money."

exactly, but what I'm seeing isn't this but "look at this writer who absconded/made off/took off and ran with $17,000!" (all paraphrased actual tweets) or, y'know, "I can just see her lying on a bed of cash in Zuccotti Park."

for all we know what she has already spent - which she's going to be paying back - was used on project-related expenses. I seriously doubt the money came in and she just kicked back and did no work on the project, engaged no-one else to work on it, did nothing towards the setting up of the publishing company that would have required money, etc etc etc.

That's why communication is good. If she had been open about her struggles, way more people would have her back. Lots of participants in this drama don't know Daphne well enough to presume good faith.

oh for fuck's sake. the descending of the vultures here is and remains really gross and I am disappointed in basically everyone for doing it

Speaking as someone who has never met Daphne but who tries really hard not to be a snarky internet vulture asshole, the reactionary fury of some of the people who have Daphne's back is completely bewildering.

some of these posts are a lock for best disingenuous point-missing of 2013 (plz donate to my kickstarter)

"a simple response" is never so simple tho. Daphne: ...it has taken additional time to write to you, but I hope you understand that this was due to a sort of panic about how to save the title." This is so familiar. The feeling that "it still could happen!" is always there and it's a major step to have to write to backers to say "we've run out of money and I don't know what to do" because it basically is an admission that you're on the hook for 17K

"Now that the circlejerk crit circle have co-signed her to be the nicest and most reliable person ever, her radio silence is nothing in retrospect!"

i'd bet that personal level of outrage towards daphne carr (including demanding one's own $20 back) correlates strongly with self-identification re personal fiscal responsibility

@ sean, speaking from personal experience, the people I know who've received a grant to "make a thing", and that thing is not made, and the money needs to be returned, that money was spent 100% on expenses and rentals and labour, not spent on Netflix. I guess it makes sense that punters would assume that you automatically get a lobster dinner upon receiving a grant but that has not at all been my experience.

the reactionary fury of some of the people who have Daphne's back is completely bewildering.

― sean gramophone, Friday, 23 August 2013 17:47 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

ya this is it

I'd say it has more to do with self-identification re one's fight vs. flight response

let's just say we're all projecting our bullshit on a fucked up situation

mostly

also, I... don't think this is the "circlejerk crit circle"? the lines are being drawn in weird places compared to what I've seen. honestly, and at the risk of burning bridges: the crowd of people who write for VICE is much more of a circlejerk crit circle.

i didn't donate to this but had i contributed i would've been fine just assuming that shit got fucked up and not getting my money back, but the opposite response is totally understandable/justified

da croupier otm

@ sean, speaking from personal experience, the people I know who've received a grant to "make a thing", and that thing is not made, and the money needs to be returned, that money was spent 100% on expenses and rentals and labour, not spent on Netflix. I guess it makes sense that punters would assume that you automatically get a lobster dinner upon receiving a grant but that has not at all been my experience.

for the record, def not my experience! so many artists and creative types are bad at money management, and chronically broke, which makes them shitty at managing sudden windfalls.

in this case, by "shitty at managing", i mean "wasteful and prone to rewarding themselves for years of ramen with several lobster dinners".

I can just about imagine doing this and then hiding under some coats for a year so I can sympathise, but eventually I would have to face the music, and the least difficult part of that music would be twenty people on a message board saying "this could have been handled better". Sorry about your mate but chill

Xps

I also can't be the only person for whom this Kickstarter con story was fresh-in-mind.

"chronically broke"

because the default state of someone in the publishing industry in 2013 is something else?

^^^

also maybe they were "development grants" :)

xp
What are you talking about? That's what I mean by "bewildering fury". Katherine: I wasn't criticizing anyone. I was just noting this reality.

I guess that's the thing: "con story." To me, "con" says that someone is deliberately out to screw people over. (The legal definition of fraud certainly says so.) And to me, that's a hell of an accusation to make of anyone without ironclad proof. It's not about cronyism, it's not about cliquishness, it's about maybe starting from the assumption that people weren't scammers (or lazy ne'er-do-welling spend-it-all-on-weed types).

I don't think anyone is disputing that this is a shitty situation that could have been handled better, but I also don't think the "reactionary rage" is where people say it is. I'm not furious at all; that's what baffles me, is how people read fury into this side (I hate the term "side" in this context but whatever) of the discussion.

there's just no point to this "fight the real enemy" shit. Sympathetic narrative or not, someone took 15k and wouldn't tell anyone - even the people who were working on the project - where it went. We only found out AFTER people got mean, which sucks, but makes it a weird time to start calling out the meanies. Daphne's said what she's going to do to fix the issue, no one appears to have a problem with it, so this "well i'd still like to vent (even though i'm not personally aggrieved)" vs "well you know who's WORSE?" debate is just hot air. but hey what's a discussion between critics without that.

I'm just glad my long-delayed Kickstarted book didn't have a year in the title. Of course, I raised less money. Also, I didn't give other cranky writers hope of being awarded with prestige for their writing upon completion of my project, which seems like the comically obvious subtext of this particular outcry.

@ sean, speaking from personal experience, the people I know who've received a grant to "make a thing", and that thing is not made, and the money needs to be returned, that money was spent 100% on expenses and rentals and labour, not spent on Netflix. I guess it makes sense that punters would assume that you automatically get a lobster dinner upon receiving a grant but that has not at all been my experience.

― ship who you wanna ship (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, August 23, 2013 12:52 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

in the less creative more "government grants for something something energy something something security" research world, i'm told that some people are fond of expensing as much in the way of meals and travel as they can.

Katherine, a simple response to any of the folks who politely inquired over the last year long before the Vice article might have indicated good faith, but she never did

Well that and the money xxp

Anyway, if Katherine defended Carr the whole time instead of Whiney, I'd be less offended, what with all the "you're just upset you lost $30 get a real job" bullshit.

I mean, "offended" is the wrong word but w/e

I get that. I really do. But, like, I have emails I've been meaning to send for about three years now if not more, and my not having sent them probably makes me look like the worst person, but if I send them *now* it'll just be humiliating and crushing and impossible to even think about. I suspect lots of people do. (Or maybe I just tell myself that.) I'm not saying it was the right decision -- no one is, anywhere -- and obviously $17,000 from however many people is much higher stakes, but it's a decision I have more than a little empathy for.

xp: no, but it really is silly in a few select cases how outraged people are getting over the cost of a Seamless meaL

I hate that people are automatically jumping to the conclusion that she spent the money on self instead of, say, having any understanding of how things are made, and approaching a failure on that end with anything less than a compassionate attitude. I did not donate to the Kickstarter but I would happily donate $ to Daphne to help cover for her losses

More at the Poynter link from Daphne, who was interviewed by Andrew Beaujon.

And FWIW

http://no-trivia.tumblr.com/post/59112390393/we-dont-want-our-money-back-google-form-telling

http://drew-york.tumblr.com/post/59112578875/we-dont-want-our-money-back-google-form-telling

If you’re not a total shitlord, submit your name, and let Carr off the hook.

i totally understand telling daphne you don't want your money back when she contacts you but this is some misguidedly pious shit

in any case, i'm not looking forward to the false equivalency salon piece contrasting this and amanda palmer

If we're going to tar the sources of things said that may or may not be true, I don't really give any fucks about what the person who slagged Ebert like, half an hour after his death was announced, thinks is the "decent" thing to do in this situation.

Anyway, I could really use $50 right now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

for what it's worth (I guess now we're disclaimering?)

- I don't remember what I donated, probably $15?

- I filled out that form because my first thought when I read the kickstarter update was "can I use this email address to tell you to keep my donation because if I can spend $15 on a cab I can spend $15 on reducing someone's crushing monumental guilt a tiny bit," and I appreciated that someone had streamlined the process. I don't agree with shaming people into what they should do with their money in most cases, which is why I didn't reblog the thing.

- I've met Daphne a few times at EMP or wherever and she always seemed friendly and professional -- which means something, but not the grand conspiracy some of the peanut gallery seems to think it is.

@katherine

It appears that almost half of this project's contributions came from those who donated 50 or less, coming from 85% of the total backers of this project. What may be the equivalent of a Seamless meal or six-pack to you is still money. People's attitudes towards money, spending, and their motivations for donating are really complex, and dismissing their contributions seems disingenuous. Without their goodwill, trust, and financial support, the project would have never succeeded on Kickstarter in the first place.

I get that. I really do. And I've tried to make it clear I'm not talking about A) people who genuinely need the money or B) people who have significant personal/financial stakes in the process. But, like, I dunno, I just find it tacky if a person is tweeting about their expensive vacations or nights out, and then suddenly $10 is a travesty.

Those are all completely different spending scenario's where a person's expectations, feelings, etc all vary greatly.

Whiney's stance on this is fucking unconscionable. I don't give a shit if Daphne saves 10 people from a burning building every day, she ran off with people's money and spent it on her own shit. Until and unless Whiney just sends me money for work I haven't done and keeps his mouth shut when I spend it and don't make a deadline he can zip it. "I don't like the people who got fleeced" is the last refuge of dudes who literally deserve to have their shit stolen from them imo

Shit Lord is not the best A$AP Mob release, but still probably my favorite since Cum Lord

she ran off with people's money and spent it on her own shit.

this has been disputed itt most people have agreed she spend it on the book but underbudgeted

does "her own shit" include the project she tried to put out that failed? I ask primarily to head off what I think will be an unnecessary argument (or to help accelerate it if I'm wrong in guessing what you meant, lol)

this has been disputed itt most people have agreed she spend it on the book but underbudgeted

on a daily staff of editors? on offices in which they could edit? this is stuff that could be made clear super-easily, but it isn't. if she had people on payroll was she paying them for...design? here are book costs:

1. printing
2. promotion
3. postage/shipping
4. editing
5. layout
6. advertising

1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 don't enter into it when the book's unpublished. If she dropped 17k on editors without a plan for publishing the book then where people's empathy comes from is beyond me, this is some bullshit, as is the vague apology.

7. logistics on the scale of making 1-6 viable, getting people like questlove involved, administrative stuff

Like almost everything else in 2013, I'm way past the point of being upset at the original incident, and way more pissed at the response to what happened, that I was unreasonable to demand a response to what happened, and that I was a vulture. Fuck that.

getting people like questlove involved

like there's actual publishers making shitty fucking wages and doing right by their authors around the damn world. fuck sympathy for somebody who takes in a pretty decent sum of money, burns through it and doesn't show a balance sheet, and then plans to pay it back over a period of years. obligatory disclosure, I have personal experience of people who take in a bunch of money that belongs to me and spend it elsewhere and I'd love to be paying bills w/that money but guess what it's gone. fuck deadbeats. this ought to be an uncontroversial stance imo, people who defend deadbeats are...like...what the fuck is wrong with people who defend deadbeats, "they meant well" is like that's cool cough up the money and we'll call it even

xp "getting people like questlove involved" is a pretty vague expense. stipend? just sending him money? "administrative stuff"? I run a business with 6 people on the payroll. nobody ever gets stiffed, it's time-consuming and annoying but it's not actually hard. you just have to have "nobody involved with this enterprise is going to get fucked out their money" at the top of your to-do list.

And if she was spending the money appropriately on the project she still should have notified folks within the past year what was going on. Only now does she say in the Poynter.com thing:

“I think it’s fair to say I was irresponsible in my contact with the donors,” she said.

you know what I mean, hiring people with the connections to actually get a press a viable enough presence and following, hiring interns (I don't know whether they were paid, maybe the guy who turned around and talked to Vice can say so), paying for all the hours this took. administrative expenses, in other words. now, I don't know how the money was spent obviously, I have basically nothing to do with this entire enterprise, but historically manpower costs are the ones that eat through your budget more than you expect.

assuming 1-6 are the only things it takes to get a book actually published in a very insider-y publishing field is some bootstrapping rhetoric that I don't agree with at all.

like, when she said it'd take $15K for "editorial stipends, administrative staff, and payment of reprint license" (in her Kickstarter update) I believe her, because it seems reasonable. this isn't amanda palmer deciding $100 filigreed album covers or whatever are more important than paying the band.

Now that there's an actual resolution to this thing with a side accepting responsibility, it's good to see people can still whip themselves into a frenzy shadowboxing over it

^

having not donated on this i have no stake one way or the other but when the rhetoric is you're either a "total shitlord" or a "pathetically delusional fucktard", something has gone drastically wrong soderberg with the conversation
― YOU FOOLS PAY OVER $2.50 for a comic book (forksclovetofu), Friday, August 23, 2013 2:44 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

like there's actual publishers making shitty fucking wages and doing right by their authors around the damn world. fuck sympathy for somebody who takes in a pretty decent sum of money, burns through it and doesn't show a balance sheet, and then plans to pay it back over a period of years. obligatory disclosure, I have personal experience of people who take in a bunch of money that belongs to me and spend it elsewhere and I'd love to be paying bills w/that money but guess what it's gone. fuck deadbeats. this ought to be an uncontroversial stance imo, people who defend deadbeats are...like...what the fuck is wrong with people who defend deadbeats, "they meant well" is like that's cool cough up the money and we'll call it even

xp "getting people like questlove involved" is a pretty vague expense. stipend? just sending him money? "administrative stuff"? I run a business with 6 people on the payroll. nobody ever gets stiffed, it's time-consuming and annoying but it's not actually hard. you just have to have "nobody involved with this enterprise is going to get fucked out their money" at the top of your to-do list.

― combination hair (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 23 August 2013 15:38 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

whenever anyone gives a loan or invests in something there's a chance they'll never see that money again, that's why we have insurance and why kickstarter has (optional) contracts. not every failed endeavour can be chalked up to someone being a deadbeat, sometimes things just fuck up. whether that's the case here specifically i don't know. i think given the lack of information (which is of course a problem itself, maybe THE problem but that doesn't seem to be what you're going for) the difference between yours and katherine's position is just whether or not your speculation lead you to empathy or indignation

otm

the point is still no one who asks for their money back is an asshole. period.

especially because she volunteered to give it back

retrospectively the plan was obv too ambitious. the #1 rule of doing things on an indie budget is do them at an indie scale, don't try to launch a full on venture

(i mean holy what there were _interns_? this is the problem -- like if you got kickstarted to do a book, just do the book. anything else will lead to untenable overhead)

holding ppl accountable is churlish

might it have been easier to just do this as a digital only thing? kindle, ibooks, pdf

xps oh sorry u did mention balance sheet my bad

holding accountable vs. suggesting they have run off to brazil and are leading a lavish life on $17k.

a cool $17k.

stacking that just-under-the-poverty-line-for-a-three-person-household scrilla

who is doing the latter itt

the $17k con artist. that's some next level spanish prisoner ish right there.

brb, writing a pitch to mamet

can we just agree that there were terrible reactions all the way around because people en masse are terrible creatures and move on to something else

he wrote back and said a $17k con is too spectacular, nobody would believe it :-(

assuming 1-6 are the only things it takes to get a book actually published in a very insider-y publishing field is some bootstrapping rhetoric that I don't agree with at all.

no it isn't, actually. I have one book published and another in line and those are your basic book expenses as far as I know. the ones you need before the book goes to press are whatever you pay your writers and design people. vague "well, she had to hire people" shit is like...what does anybody mean here by "hire"? were they getting hourly wages? honorariums?

whenever anyone gives a loan or invests in something there's a chance they'll never see that money again, that's why we have insurance and why kickstarter has (optional) contracts. not every failed endeavour can be chalked up to someone being a deadbeat, sometimes things just fuck up. whether that's the case here specifically i don't know. i think given the lack of information (which is of course a problem itself, maybe THE problem but that doesn't seem to be what you're going for) the difference between yours and katherine's position is just whether or not your speculation lead you to empathy or indignation

in fairness, flopson's mostly right here - I'm sure if I knew dc I'd be empathetic because I'm sure she's a passionate, right-on person who fucked up. so are a lot of people who fleece people, though - "this person's cool, I know she meant well" is kind of a nonstarter imo. this one dude who owes me massive scratch is an A+ stand-up dude who I'd trust with my life. I foolishly trusted him with my business, and I'm never going to see my money. so, on personal terms, I get indignant when it takes muckraking articles to get any kind of response from this person and then people are mad at the muckraking articles. short of the muckraking articles and social media response it seems clear dc was just never going to contact anybody. whether that's out of shame over failure or disingenuousness doesn't really matter. I'm sure she meant well, and now she should take out a 17k loan on whatever terms she can get one on and pay everybody back their money. if she has to eat interest on that those are the breaks imo.

as to "sometimes people just fuck up" vs. "people are deadbeats," the distinction is pretty meaningless to the people whose money disappears into unidentified expenses imo!

i think there's some middle ground between being the indie rock writer female version of michael caine in dirty rotten scoundrels and being a naive pollyanna who dreamed dreams that were just too big for this dang little town

i've worked for arts non-profits for over a decade, and things like this are so similar to "worst practices" in the non-profit arts community. When a non-profit does things like this, it is illegal. But kickstarter's model basically places the individual project starter in a similar role - in terms of what your obligations are, donor relations, etc.

also s.clover you are really looking down your nose at 17K did you get a gig where ott works or something?

he was saying it's a too modest amount to risk a legit con job

right, but I'm assuming your press actually existed and had previously built up reputation/clout/a Rolodex/ability to get big gets, or the process involved doing that work. and it is work. otherwise you might as well put up a CafePress and hope people stumble across it. (to use a music analogy, it's the difference between some random Bandcamp page, some random Bandcamp page where the band has a lot of IRL friends who can give them beer money, and some random Bandcamp page with a well-paid, connected publicist to make it go viral.)

the idea of me being a pollyanna is very amusing fwiw

I semi-assumed that this thing had a publisher already, which is probably a bad assumption

the entire problem was it didn't have a publisher already -- the kickstarter was to start an entire new publishing house for Best Music Writing and other stuff

haha okay $17K sounds like far too little money in that case

exactly!

should have gone the dalkey archive route

the entire problem was it didn't have a publisher already -- the kickstarter was to start an entire new publishing house for Best Music Writing and other stuff

so you/she pays the printer herself. Not sure why "publishing house" necessitated $17k

People who have no professional experience managing money are being given lots of money. It's a fundamental flaw with the crowdfunding model. I don't doubt that stuff like this is happening with lots of Kickstarter projects, it's just that some are more public than others.

People who have no professional experience managing money are being given lots of money. It's a fundamental flaw with the crowdfunding model

In a nutshell, yes.

Yeah this is what puts me off ever giving money to a ks project, unfortunately: it seems as though the likelihood of my money being wasted is quite high. Knowing that I'd then be subject to "if you've ever eaten at a restaurant you have no right to care about losing £30" fingerwagging should I have the temerity to complain makes me even less likely to go for these.

Yes, I have paid $30 for a restaurant meal. This would be like if you paid a restaurant $30 and didn't get any food.

chef seemed like a nice guy tho

(why do I keep responding to this)

The fundamental difference is whether you see giving to a Kickstarter as a donation/cosign or a monetary transaction. I see it as the former. Most people, Kickstarter included, see it as the latter.

but it's nice to see people making fun of any position that isn't the hard-line, that's cool, you keep on doing that

katherine, that is one of the pitfalls of kickstarter. People who have projects who think of it as strangers on the internet giving them money solely because they are a worthwhile person and mean well are deluding themselves. Unless the project is specifically framed as "give me money, I am a worthwhile person with good intentions." But, kickstarter's structure is framed like a monetary transaction. It requires you to give rewards to backers.

Looking at the kickstarter page, all the rewards are objects with a monetary value!

hence the "Kickstarter included" part -- even though a great deal of their branding frames it as the former. some donors respond to that.

the donations were solicited to produce a thing, and for their contributions they would get things. There isn't any charitable intent in the pitch.

I totally get and empathise with all the points re: fucking up, panic and shame. I have probably been there.

I have never been there with 17k of other people's money (and yes, a promise of something exciting for people's careers) though! Sure, I don't reply to many emails and feel guilty but I'd sure hope that my obligation to those people would outweigh my own feelings before a YEAR was up. Before the vice outrage machine would get started. I don't cosign the vice model but if that piece hadn't run then...what?

I don't want to do the "burn the witch" outrage thing - as I say I get why these things happen. I just don't get the reverse outrage of people defending her. What she did sucks. The crux of the matter isn't even the money, it's the total lack of communication and the fact that only bringing out the nastiest guns galvanised that into happening.

The crux of the matter isn't even the money, it's the total lack of communication

Definitely. That's another one of the "worst practices" I referred to upthread.

the donations were solicited to produce a thing, and for their contributions they would get things. There isn't any charitable intent in the pitch.

― not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, August 23, 2013 5:17 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i donated for a tote bag. that's like a pbs thing.

PBS and other non-profits, when they are soliciting donations and offering things in return, have to specify the value of the thing(s) you are getting, and whether your donation is entirely a donation (i.e. tax-deductible).

Yes, I have paid $30 for a restaurant meal. This would be like if you paid a restaurant $30 and didn't get any food.

― not some dude poking a Line 6 pedal with his dick (sarahell), Friday, August 23, 2013 4:54 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You know how much money you could save if you cooked your food at home though?

*promises self not to make a subway joke, can't speak for the whole room*

You know how much money you could save if you cooked your food at home though?

― i'm walter white btw (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, August 23, 2013 5:31 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

$94k and bennies?

thanks Whiney for following through on autographing my copy of Hipster Puppies

So, to follow the analogy, the people who are annoyed that the book isn't happening should have written their own?

everyday I write the book

well, this is as good a time as any. so for the past 2 years now I have been working on a book compiling what I consider to be classic threads and posts from ILX. It is finally finished, and is being published by lulu.com. You can order copies directly from the site, or email me and I can send you one.

hey guys I just wrote the best music writing of 2012

suck it, internet

Thing is, she probably blew a large portion of the dough. Doesn't make her a bad person. It would be hard to be disciplined. That's why I've got too much credit card debt. If you're sitting with that money, coming up a little short or car needs repair, I'm sure it's hard not to say oh I'll just borrow out of the book fund & pay it back later... It all happens so gradually, doesn't mean anyone didn't have good intentions or is a grifter

It was so much simpler back in the day where you would just borrow money from your mom or put everything on a credit card. Very few ppl are gonna be sympathetic to the credit card company if you don't pay it back.

This is how the money was supposed to be spent:

This Kickstarter campaign will raise money to pay for the production of our 2012 book, including payments for reprint rights from writers, a small editorial board stipend, graphic design services, and administrative services for licensing and project management. It's hard to believe but this much alone is around $20k!

Anything above this amount will cover printing costs, administrative and start up costs.

i don't think its hard to believe at all. 20 thousand sounds cheap for a job like that. and getting it to stores and all the rest of it...yeesh.

Someone should send this thread to Da Capo and let them know how much of a fuss the BMW series has raised in an insular corner of the internet.

It's hard to believe but this much alone is around $20k!

I agree!

xp - but the initial budget wasn't including printing costs and putting it in stores.

It sounds like the original budget of $15k was just to produce what would result in a digital copy.

Apologies for the length. This whole debate is quite interesting. Especially input from folks that didn't put any money in...

You can certainly categorize perception based on what terms people use: "donor" vs. "backer". It reflect perception about the obligations. Kickstarter itself uses the term "backer", but Daphne used the term "donor" in the Poynter article.

Also interesting but mostly unknown is that there was a second fundraising event that pulled in another $4500. (I do note that WePay calls them donors and there is no mention of "rewards"). https://www.wepay.com/donations/181744 Are the WePay donors getting refunds too? Can't tell. Maybe they are just SOL.

So, the real total $ amount here between Kickstarter and WePay is $21,912. That is inarguably a good chunk of change.

Ultimately, we can't forget some key facts:
1. To my knowledge, NONE of rewards were delivered - not the totebags or the t-shirts and not even the rewards where a professional writer line-edits your stuff or the life-coaching or whatever. Those rewards weren't blocked by the creation of the book, so it's revealing if they weren't delivered either. It looks like a failure to deliver anything.
2. There was only 1 update sent to backers within 30 days after the funding and then radio silence for 18 months. Not acceptable.
3. Numerous folks (myself included) tried to contact for information and were ignored. You could clearly see on the Kickstarter site that Daphne was logging in and backing other peoples projects but was ignoring your emails. Again, not acceptable.
4. There has been zero transparency as to where the money went. So, yeah, people will speculate...
5. It shouldn't have taken the Vice article to get some action. Not acceptable.

In the absence of any transparency, I'm baffled by the folks saying "keep the money". I backed in the $100+ range. I want to know where my money went. (I'm not taking a stance yea/nay on my refund until she actually contacts me personally.)

Something like Cory Doctorow's book financials would go a long way here: http://craphound.com/walh/2010/10/monthly-financials

I agree that Daphne has stated that she will refund backer money. She also stated that she would deliver all those things from the Kickstarter campaign. Maybe the refunds will be promised but also never be delivered.

The jury is still out until the refunds start flowing and are actually all completed.

And honestly, 3 years is an amazingly long time to wait for a refund (the rate looks like <$500 in refunds per month). Add in the time since the project was funded that means it could possibly be 4.5 years total before I would see my money returned. And without interest, I might add. It's like making a 5-year interest-free loan...

Daphne can go a long way to repairing her credibility by actually delivering the refunds and delivering regular updates on that process through official Kickstarter updates. Saying that further communication should be done through non-Kickstarter channels is disappointing.

I'll believe in the refunds when I see it happen. Hate to be a skeptic, but 18 months of radio silence and ignoring emails doesn't build confidence.

I would love to see the BMW book series continue. Maybe it needs a real publisher backing it. (Wonder if they talked to McSweeney's?) But I'll think twice before throwing more money at Daphne/Feedback Press without better transparency and accountability.

"It sounds like the original budget of $15k was just to produce what would result in a digital copy."

ah, okay. that sounds more reasonable.

"But I'll think twice before throwing more money at Daphne/Feedback Press without better transparency and accountability."

i can't imagine that she would try this again. or at least ask for money from the public if she does it again.

Wow @ all of this, I just re found this thread

lol your endless quest for answers finally comes to a close

I was thinking that, yeah

I wonder if the initial Kickstarter was arbitrarily set low to increase the chance of making the goal.

just thought i'd post a little update: i sent the google doc with all the names of the people wishing to opt-out of the kickstarter refund to the feedback press email. haven't had any response thus far, but i don't think i'm going to get one frankly. i imagine the inbox is inundated with people wanting their money back or answers as to why feedback press never delivered. the list is in her hands now anyway, hopefully it makes the process at least a bit easier.

shitlords never worry

(Now That's) The Shitlords

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFIhxBAQh68

It's October now and no sign of the promised list of writing that was supposed to arrive in the first week of September

I intend to publish the list of the Best Music Writing as selected by the book's incredible, world-class professional editorial board. This in and of itself is a great
achievement and I hope you will take the time to enjoy the pieces mentioned on the list. This will arrive to you via email in the first week of September, after the dust has cleared from this announcement. I hope to separate the good work of those editors from my failure with the publishing house.

I guess you could try emailing her at wemakefeedback at gmail dot com

Not that she's been quick to respond to anyone in the past

poor thing, still being victimized by people that gave her a bunch of money for free

u are all the best music writers in my book http://i44.tinypic.com/20kdg8o.png

have a blessed day

I emailed her and she has not responded. I guess she'll publish the list after Vice does a follow-up

An email response!:

Thanks for you email. I have not, as of yet. I will shortly.

All best,
Daphne

I wonder how she defines "shortly"? Can publishing the list of the Best Music Writing as selected by the book's incredible, world-class professional editorial board be that hard.

I don't have a personal stake in this, but jeez...

well guess we better polish our pitchforks

as someone who has on occasion pursued projects that never reach completion i'm pretty cool with daphne taking her time on this or even not following through at all

Gotta say that I don't care for the list as much as I get my $50 back but Brad, of those projects, how many of those were crowdfunded and had you be accountable to more than just, say, an editor?

I don't have a personal stake in this

direct tweet didn't work, so may as well email

― curmudgeon, Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:57 AM (6 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

No response so far

― curmudgeon, Friday, April 26, 2013 8:00 AM (6 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Still nothing

― curmudgeon, Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:47 AM (6 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

none were crowdfunded but i've been accountable to more ppl than an editor! at this point the $50 i contributed practically doesn't even exist in mind anymore. it was probably put toward good use in this project that didn't pan out. whatever

reviving this thread in honor of Rorschach's bday I see

at this point the $50 i contributed practically doesn't even exist in mind anymore. it was probably put toward good use in this project that didn't pan out. whatever

can you send me $50 please, I have this really good project in mind that may or may not pan out and if it doesn't I won't be giving you the $50 back. whatever

sure, sounds like the literal nature of investment

i mean, accountability is important, but as much as we're inconvenienced daphne's probably doubly, triply so, bc she invested time and money in this project that probably amounted to more than spending $50 on a website

ppl who keep bumping this thread are pathological vultures ime

in retrospect, an e-book might have calmed some people down. it is the 21st century after all. certainly wouldn't have cost $$$$ to do.

matos alone could have slapped that thing together in a week. dude is a madman.

plus, nerds totally would have bought it for 10 bucks on amazon or whatever. they love their kindles and tablets and shit.

sure, sounds like the literal nature of investment

^tbf crowd-funding isn't the same as investing because you will not share in any eventual profits (if there were profits which obv i very much doubt in this case)

ppl who keep bumping this thread are pathological vultures ime

thread got revived because some folks were wondering if she could even get it together to send an email list of articles that would've appeared in this thing. I doubt anyone expects to get a cent back from this boondoggle by this point. but, it would be nice to see what the articles were, so if there was something you didn't know, you could check it out? Wasn't that the whole point of this venture: to highlight good writing?

If Daphne couldn't handle the admittedly hard job of putting the book together on the budget she had, she should have said so much sooner and returned people's money. Calling her on that and on her failure to simply post or email the list of highlighted articles after saying she would do so, does not make one a vulture.

curmudgeon, just link to the piece you wrote and stop

at least Amanda Palmer came through on her kickstarter promises

whiney otm

If Daphne couldn't handle the admittedly hard job of putting the book together on the budget she had, she should have said so much sooner and returned people's money. Calling her on that and on her failure to simply post or email the list of highlighted articles after saying she would do so, does not make one a vulture.

― curmudgeon, Saturday, November 9, 2013 3:05 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

does make one pathological tho

i have a strong feeling about how weird it is that people have strong feelings over whether others should feel aggrieved or not for losing money

that sounds a bit pathological of you, J0rdan

hmm

getting up the hopes of a bunch of critics with the prospect that it may now be THEIR turn to receive praise and then not following through is like a perfect recipe for internet furor

i would have been really really sad. i sent something to them. so, in retrospect, kinda glad they didn't need it. though they should have needed it. it was wonderful.

^tbf crowd-funding isn't the same as investing because you will not share in any eventual profits (if there were profits which obv i very much doubt in this case)

true. anyway sorry i got mad everyone!

Crowd funding is kinda weird, seems to work best with music because it's pretty much like doing a preorder and if you like a band's songs it's pretty easy to expect that they can record them decently if they raise a modest amount

Stuff like this or video games is still kind of crazy to me. Literally a million things can go wrong with a game, even people that have shipped product before, and half these kick starters are really green developers

yeah books and albums seem so much more simple to develop and produce than video games on every single level

the thing about kickstarter is that at the low contribution levels it doesn't really make sense for the producer(s) to have to make a whole bunch of things (stickers, shirts etc etc) aside from whatever the product is that's being sold

it's a good idea in theory and obv it works enough to not be a total disaster but in the wrong hands that model is a clear path to super delayed timelines and/or going underwater on the main project

i think it makes sense to offer something above and beyond the original product for a three or four figure donation (depending on what's being sold)

but like... if you're donating <50 or whatever for something, you should basically just be happy with getting whatever it is and throwing in some extra cash just to make sure the plan comes to fruition

While I understand caring more about the person behind this project than the project (lord knows I do), let alone the bucks you gave to both, I don't get mocking people who cared enough about that long-running project to voice their frustration on the internet when the person behind it (who worked on it for years) lets it die in such an ignominious, protracted and embarrassing way. Like, did you really care that little about the thing she spent years working on? Were you just pretending to like it? Is it so hard to grasp that not everyone who knew about it was a personal acquaintance of hers and therefore they might be less than sympathetic about multiple missed deadlines and extreme lengths of radio silence? Is dismissing those people as "folks who can't shut up about their $20" really the way to go here? This is a sad situation, and sneering at people openly let down by it only makes it sadder.

this isn't all at jordan, just a general disappointment with the "let's support daphne by not giving two fucks about the thing she worked on for years and mocking those who do" line of thinking

the idea that she hasn't apologized enough or experienced enough public embarrassment or promised recompensation enough yet is a little hard to get behind at this point.

sd, the last two revives are people voicing annoyance that a list promised to arrive in September is nowhere to be seen. No one is asking for another apology, more public embarrassment and more promises of recompensation. When people open a thread to say "this album sucks!" we don't say "omg, do you want blood you vulture!?"

really disingenuous interpretation of my position there but cool. basically one dude bumping this thread every once in a while to update us all on whether or not daphne emailed him back = gross and terrible behavior imo. anyway

the outrage was over-the-top to begin with -- if it looks like people are starting to poke the cooling embers with a stick to start a new fire over her mea culpa peace offering also being tardy and insufficient, i dunno, i think it's fair to tell those people to calm the fuck down.

i was speaking to the broader wagon-circle than any specific defense, but naturally that leads to "are you talking about me/are you talking about a strawman" complaints, which are fair, and i apologize. But as much as I like Daphne there's no denying this continues to be ugly and sad, and the kind of thing people would normally get raked over the coals for on ILX, and I don't like when the defense basically becomes "if you care about Best Music Writing you are sad, get over it."

not to mention the issues with "if you care about the money you gave you are sad, get over it"

is anyone saying that

if someone repeatedly calling out Daphne for her repeated false promises bothers folks so much they could not read or comment on the thread. But telling someone they should not be aggrieved is a worse look than their repeated posting on the status (or non-status) of her latest failure to deliver.

is anyone saying that

yes. scroll up, read twitter.

BMW is a nice idea and it was laudable for her to attempt to bring it back to life after the original company already declared it not a viable business. but at the end of the day it was just republishing things that have already been published with a bit of curatorial prestige for the benefit of the writers and readers alike. the nature of the project leads me to a "woulda been nice, ah well" conclusion quicker than if it was, say, something a bunch of people had already written a bunch of new stuff for that was now not going to ever be published or paid for.

Sorry I used repeated;y/repeated/repeated so much in that post. My thesaurus must be broken.

The glass-half-full side of me thinks that if we let this thread die, then maybe without so much pressure, she'll deliver a statement that's fully cognizant of what she's capable of delivering and maybe even that list and those refunds.

The glass-half-empty side thinks, looking back at all this, ehh, probably not.

quick question and honestly not looking to add fire to this: does anyone care enough about this project to want to take the baton and run with it?

Forks

WhineyForks E-Pub Limited

Maybe dude from Animal Collective has some free time

amanda palmer seems to have a grasp of this kickstarter thing

M@tt for thread MVP

silly question I know but has anyone seen the list of selections that she promised for last September?

aaaaaahahahahahha

In the meantime, another writer compiled this list for RBMA: http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/magazine/best-music-journalism-2013-jason-gross

I don't agree with more than a few of the picks, but if you really want an aggregated list of music writing from last year...

it is now 2014. is it even remotely possible anyone will care about the best music writing in 2012 anymore?

in 2022 the anniversary-driven internet content economy will probably be primed for it

Bear in mind that the 2012 edition actually collects writing from 2011.

Damn, I made Jason's list!

congrats

Thanks

I'd have liked to be singled out for something less experimental and more analytic/journalistic, but still, cool

I didn't believe it when she promised the list of selected writing would appear in first week of September - because I don't believe it ever will be delivered.

who the fuck cares

2012 was like a decade ago it doesn't matter.