Defend the indefensible: Liberace

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Watched the HBO special the other day. It got me thinking how weird it is, considering that he was one of the highest paid entertainers in the world, that his memory has effectively vanished off the face of the earth.

Anyone willing to defend this emperor of extravagance?

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 02:23 (twelve years ago)

"Watched the HBO special the other day."


"his memory has effectively vanished off the face of the earth."

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 02:29 (twelve years ago)

I mean, he had similar levels of success to Elvis and Sinatra, but whereas their legacy has endured, PRIOR to this adaptation, he'd been pretty much forgotten, no? I mean, most people 30 and under have heard of Elvis and Sinatra, but you'd have had a hard time finding anyone knowing who Liberace was.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 02:32 (twelve years ago)

as a performer he seems pretty lovable to me. I can forgive him for a being a creep, if he was indeed one.

ttyih boi (crüt), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 02:32 (twelve years ago)

I probably only heard of Liberace in the first place because of Bloom County, but I feel like he's not totally forgotten, even if he's not as iconic as Elvis or Sinatra.

btw all this liberace talk has sharply affected how I pronounce "waterface" in my head

ttyih boi (crüt), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 02:35 (twelve years ago)

most people 30 and under have heard of Elvis and Sinatra

wrong btw

ty based gay dead computer god (zachlyon), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 02:51 (twelve years ago)

he had similar levels of success to Elvis and Sinatra

by what measure?

fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 02:55 (twelve years ago)

Yeah, so many questionable assumptions in that post.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 02:58 (twelve years ago)

Having said that, while I've been very familiar with his persona/image/reputation, I should admit that I've never actually listened to him. Along with Lawrence Welk and Dolly Parton, he's one of the few American musicians that my parents listened to because they had TV shows in the 70s and 80s.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:03 (twelve years ago)

Huh, going by a cursory scan of Wikipedia, he appeared on TV a lot in the 70s but didn't have a regular show then.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:06 (twelve years ago)

same here, i know what he looks like but i don't think i've ever heard any of his music.
i think that may be where a lot of <30s are with elvis too.....

m0stlyClean, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:11 (twelve years ago)

it's kind of interesting, bizarre even, that his wiki entry doesn't include a discography or a link to one.

on the other hand, he never appeared on the billboard singles chart.

fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:11 (twelve years ago)

I dunno, was he really known for his recordings?

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:15 (twelve years ago)

I mean, six gold records and a single that sold 300K copies is nowhere NEAR Sinatra's or Presley's level of success in terms of record sales.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:17 (twelve years ago)

(xp) apparently not! but it's hard to think of any other musician with six gold records -- i'm trusting wiki on that -- who doesn't merit even a cursory attempt at a discography in wikipedia.

fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:22 (twelve years ago)

six gold records and a single that sold 300k copies is also nowhere near ferrante & teicher's level of success.

fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:23 (twelve years ago)

a lot of his fans are dead. or ancient. it happens. people will always buy elvis and sinatra albums. there were lots of very famous entertainers that nobody listens to/watches/talks about anymore. THIS is who people should still be listening to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQHaglomIU0

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:45 (twelve years ago)

Well, even in Liberace's lifetime, it doesn't seem (if we are to trust Wikipedia!) that people were buying his albums in exceptional numbers. My impression was always that he was mostly known (and highly paid) for his flamboyant performance practice.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 03:57 (twelve years ago)

korla pandit otm

ttyih boi (crüt), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 04:02 (twelve years ago)

some discussion of Liberace-as-musician vs. Liberace as punchline to pop culture jokes on this thread Who is the most-famous least-popular musician of all time?

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 04:10 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo8kSoHhteA

THIZZ VAN LEER @_@ (lpz), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 04:25 (twelve years ago)

several xposts:

My comparison would be made not on record sales but on overall revenue made. Take for example this article (one of many I found), which talks about Liberace being the highest paid entertainer in the world.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10079170/Behind-the-Candelabra-the-true-story-of-Liberace.html

I don't think it'd be too far out to say that with that kind of revenue-drawing stardom, he was on a par with Elvis/Sinatra, even if it wasn't through the same medium (record sales).

Perhaps I was being too broad when I said that no-one in the world really remembered him any more. It might be the case in America that people still have heard of him, but in the UK, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone under 30 who had heard of him aside from the odd Austin Powers reference.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 11:03 (twelve years ago)

I probably only heard of Liberace in the first place because of Bloom County

This. I also pronounced his name wrong until someone corrected me very recently.

how's life, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 11:12 (twelve years ago)

Regular target of parody by Bugs Bunny = defensible.

http://i2.wp.com/insuremekevin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/bugs_bunny_modern_art_liberace_heffner.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcqmvGVH9c0

hashtag sizzler (Phil D.), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 11:44 (twelve years ago)

His music was crap, his audience of elderly women is a demographic no one cares about today, and his personal politics was so backwards (though that is pretty understandable, given the times) He is perhaps a tragic figure, but I can't imagine him ever playing a role in the culture today except as a punchline/cautionary tale.

Frederik B, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:05 (twelve years ago)

most people 30 and under

let's all genuflect.

I grew up knewing who he was, seeing him on TV, and certainly by age 12 had formed the opinion that he was a joke, but was partly in on it.

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:11 (twelve years ago)

totally defend him just for unknowingly making this a reality:

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/HNTqJfqUPfBbRirtAPcpeg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYwMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/video/video.abcnewsplus.com/4c986e7e5453c06b460817af8d18a0cf.cf.png

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:37 (twelve years ago)

but yeah it makes sense that he would still be a pop presence in the u.s. and not so much elsewhere.

i feel like i have known him my whole life pretty much. i'm 44 though. the 30 and under thing could very well be true. i mean i KNEW who bugs was parodying when i was a little kid. van cliburn, that might be even more of a drop. other than classical buffs, who remembers him? or even knows that he recently died? he was a huge pop culture thing once upon a time. and he made good records that sold a ton. for classical. cold war hero.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:42 (twelve years ago)

van had the first million-selling classical album in the late 50's. he was that huge.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:43 (twelve years ago)

also, could be a movie in the works:

"In 1998, Cliburn was named in a lawsuit by his domestic partner of seventeen years, mortician Thomas Zaremba. In the suit, Zaremba claimed entitlement to a portion of Cliburn's income and assets and went on to charge that he might have been exposed to HIV, claiming emotional distress."

The Master & The Mortician

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:46 (twelve years ago)

bobby fischer of tchaikovsky! but less, you know. of a chess player.

the white queen and her caustic judgments (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:50 (twelve years ago)

Am over 30 and I had no idea who Liberace was, it was lost on me when watching Bugs Bunny. In fact the first time I was aware Liberace was a person was cos of this movie coming out.

Just noise and screaming and no musical value at all. (Colonel Poo), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:54 (twelve years ago)

i knew who liberace was growing up but only because i looked up that line in austin powers. van cliburn's was the copy of tchai piano #1 that i had but apparently do not anymore.

the white queen and her caustic judgments (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 12:56 (twelve years ago)

van cliburn, that might be even more of a drop. other than classical buffs, who remembers him? or even knows that he recently died?

Van Cliburn was the commencement speaker at my wife's place of employment, the Cleveland Institute of Music, at their 2012 graduation ceremonies; and, of course, he died this winter.

In 2011, CIM's big event was an evening featuring talk and music from Marvin Hamlisch, who conducted the CIM student orchestra for the event. Hamlisch went on to die in the summer of 2012.

This year, they held a major fundraising event featuring Roberta Flack. I fear for her safety.

hashtag sizzler (Phil D.), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 13:01 (twelve years ago)

i am 35 and when i hear "liberace" i instantly think "candelabra" and "hairdo that kind of looks like dracula"

if you look at youtube comments, there are many people who appreciate liberace out there, and not just little old ladies

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 16:46 (twelve years ago)

I am over 30 and feel like I've always been aware of him in the same way I've always been aware of Lawrence Welk (similar audiences, but major difference is that Welk is STILL on TV)

Mr. Scarf Ace is Back (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 16:56 (twelve years ago)

ronald reagan, jr. attempts to explain liberace, 1986

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPcbJiWX3Ws

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:08 (twelve years ago)

FWIW, he did a strangely nice piano cover of "The Long and Winding Road", although not much else I've heard by him has particularly caught my ear.

Watching videos of him on youtube is weirdly compelling for some reason. He had a real stage presence, although the reaction of his audience to his, er, gags is a large helping of "ick". It feels very weird to me.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:11 (twelve years ago)

yeah, it's kind of difficult to recreate the taste culture that made him such a big star

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:15 (twelve years ago)

i mean imaginatively create, not literally recreate (but i guess both are true)

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:15 (twelve years ago)

same w/ emerson lake & palmer

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:18 (twelve years ago)

Liberace is known to UK lawyers due to the "mother love" quote he won his libel case over being commonly read out for yuks by delict/tort professors.

calumerio, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:20 (twelve years ago)

liberace was kind of a joke reference point for my classical music loving parents. I think of him as an unfunny and outlandish analogue to Victor Borge -- a bygone breed of "entertainer" that mixed quasi-highbrow music with mass appeal. Actually not necessarily bygone -- we have stuff like Andrea Bocelli and the Three/Four tenors singing broadway and pop hits. TBC though, I like Victor Borge and don't think much of Liberace. Strikes me as the kind of thing people who don't really care much about music listen to when they want to be "classy."

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:20 (twelve years ago)

Like it's hard for me to believe there were many Liberace fans who had a large and diverse record collection.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:22 (twelve years ago)

same w/ russ colombo

i think people need to remember that when liberace first hit and hit big, that most people did not have a notion of a "camp" sensibility--that manner of appreciation was very far from mainstream.

but he seemed to "transition" into a kind of camp object w/ grace.

but yeah there are people out there who like the "four chinese girls" or whatever that act is, not very far from the sort of unimaginably tasteless pop/classical hybrid that liberace represented for many years.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:23 (twelve years ago)

xpost

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:23 (twelve years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Girls_Band

they add "world music" stylings to the pop-classical mix, though in fairness so did liberace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVMXEnL8liM

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:24 (twelve years ago)

I guess his fame makes sense within the context of early television. Like if you have a variety show and you want some guy to play nostalgic old tunes on the piano for 2 minutes you're going to want a showy guy with a giant smile and big movements that are easily visible on peoples tiny black and white TV screens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3H-Fx9qYMk

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:25 (twelve years ago)

similar to a paul schaeffer role really. somebody to fill a few minutes of airtime with functional music while coming across as a recognizable TV personality.

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:27 (twelve years ago)

nah, liberace had an "act" early on, the video clip you posted clearly alludes to it!

and this doesn't explain his popularity extending well beyond TV to being a major vegas act for decades.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:29 (twelve years ago)

and then when people are in vegas they're going to go see that guy whose name they recognize from the TV. whether that's liberace or john tesh.
xp

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:29 (twelve years ago)

i do think that he needs to be understood in the context of "lite classical" which is such a major genre of midcentury popular music that few people pay any mind to nowadays, or at least not ILX-type folks

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:30 (twelve years ago)

see also Andre Kostelanetz, Mantovani....

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:31 (twelve years ago)

similar to a paul schaeffer role really.

now imagining Paul Schaeffer getting his gay protege plastic surgery to look like him
xp

Mr. Scarf Ace is Back (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:31 (twelve years ago)

i think people need to remember that when liberace first hit and hit big, that most people did not have a notion of a "camp" sensibility--that manner of appreciation was very far from mainstream.

This is an interesting point. I was recently watching some 70s elvis clips and it suddenly struck me as so bizarre that this was the sort of thing that conservative, greying ladies were going to see live, this guy with a ridiculous tight polyester suit open nearly all the way down the torso, poofed out hair, gold chains, etc., with this hokey, outlandish, cornball-to-the-max stage schtick

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:31 (twelve years ago)

nah, liberace had an "act" early on, the video clip you posted clearly alludes to it!

well yeah that's what I mean. and that act got him booked on tons of TV appearances because he was inoffensive, professional, showy, and entertaining. it was about showbiz, not really music.

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:32 (twelve years ago)

Paul Shaffer was gushing all over "Lee" (ahem) when Liberace was on Letterman.

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:32 (twelve years ago)

The man himself said "I don't give concerts, I put on a show."

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:32 (twelve years ago)

gotta admit the cutaway piano scenery in that clip is pretty lol/awesome

Mr. Scarf Ace is Back (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:33 (twelve years ago)

yeah. I was disappointed they didn't do it as he played though.

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:36 (twelve years ago)

wk otm about it being showbiz, not really music. That clip shows very distinctly that his piano style was less about subtlety and more, "look ma, no hands!" v. exaggerated and full of flair. not necessarily a bad thing, but it's v. showbiz.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:37 (twelve years ago)

kind of depressing to think that 50 years from now people might look back on stuff like american idol and try to figure out how it fit into the musical culture of our era rather than seeing it as part of the world of game shows and reality TV.

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:40 (twelve years ago)

I was recently watching some 70s elvis clips and it suddenly struck me as so bizarre that this was the sort of thing that conservative, greying ladies were going to see live, this guy with a ridiculous tight polyester suit open nearly all the way down the torso, poofed out hair, gold chains, etc., with this hokey, outlandish, cornball-to-the-max stage schtick

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, June 5, 2013 12:31 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

See also: Tom Jones and Englebert Humperdinck. Xgau's take at the time.

Mr. Mojo Readin' (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:45 (twelve years ago)

this is a monumentally stupid thread

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:46 (twelve years ago)

good point. I often think of X Factor and American Idol and Britain's Got Talent as being part of the general pop landscape; e.g. Rihanna, Katy Perry, Gaga, Bieber, etc...but they're not exactly the same thing, are they? There's a distinct difference in that while pop music is generally commercial, the music begets the celebrity in the case of Gaga, Rihanna, etc, but opposite when it comes to Idol and co, where it's just the "participation" by the audience and a contest with no real thought to the winner beyond the first single/album.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:46 (twelve years ago)

xpost to wk

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:47 (twelve years ago)

yeah those shows blur the lines by having music industry people involved but the role they play and the way they generate stars is very different from the actual record business.

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:53 (twelve years ago)

this is a monumentally stupid thread

― sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, June 5, 2013 12:46 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

care to explain why?

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:56 (twelve years ago)

Jeez, everyone who is talking about how it's "not really MUSIC" or "it's just showbiz" or whatever needs to get their head out their ass. He was an amazing virtuoso on the piano. That is the actual source of his fame and popularity. Of course the showmanship and lifestyle eventually eclipsed that and he's been a joke/cliche for for decades because most people can't appreciate how amazing he really was as a musician. It was a thing back in the day to have virtuoso performers doing a populist repetoire - people like Liberace, Jo Ann Castle or other performers from the Lawrence Welk show and similar. It's not fashionable anymore but people appreciated it and that's why they became stars.

everything, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 18:23 (twelve years ago)

My comparison would be made not on record sales but on overall revenue made. Take for example this article (one of many I found), which talks about Liberace being the highest paid entertainer in the world.

no doubt dude made gobs of money, but i seriously doubt that claim would stand up to any kind of scrutiny. it's just a bit of liberace/las vegas myth-making that people like to repeat because why not?

fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 18:29 (twelve years ago)

in odd coincidence, William Friedkin weighs in:

Young people are only vaguely aware of Liberace. People under 40 may not be aware of him at all, but when Liberace died, most of his fans were older women, people like my mother, my aunt, and I’m telling you, they were not thinking about Liberace as gay or straight. They were thinking about him as a flamboyant showman, and there were a handful of others at the time.

Mr. Scarf Ace is Back (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 18:30 (twelve years ago)

my acquaintance with him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcqmvGVH9c0

A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 18:31 (twelve years ago)

Liberace came from an era that was less publicly judgmental of "acceptably flamboyant" showmen. Maybe it was do to the fact that homosexuality was absent from the mainstream dialog (even though homophobia was possibly as deeply entrenched as McCarthyism), along with the observation that his more sequined personage do not arrive until well after he was an established act (i believe i recall that back in the day he convinced Elvis to adopt the sparkles, spangles and kerchiefs as part of his stage performances).

I suppose that this, in turn, informed the 70's glam displayed by guys like NY Dolls, Bowie, Reed, etc. Seems like taking the previous generations super stars and turning their collective visage on their collective heads is yet another example of history repeating itself.

While not from his "glam" era, i do particularly like this Liberace track -- i found a vintage 7" of this track in the mid-90s and instantly knew i'd include it in my first child's "baby mix-tape" (which, incidentally, took an another 10 years to come to fruition).

At the end of the day, i don't necessarily find showmanship as important as material; i guess one could always find prime examples of that in Victor Borge or Reggie Watts (et.al).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob6Y6D9BuM4

bodacious ignoramus, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:17 (twelve years ago)

Jeez, everyone who is talking about how it's "not really MUSIC" or "it's just showbiz" or whatever needs to get their head out their ass. He was an amazing virtuoso on the piano. That is the actual source of his fame and popularity. Of course the showmanship and lifestyle eventually eclipsed that and he's been a joke/cliche for for decades because most people can't appreciate how amazing he really was as a musician. It was a thing back in the day to have virtuoso performers doing a populist repetoire - people like Liberace, Jo Ann Castle or other performers from the Lawrence Welk show and similar. It's not fashionable anymore but people appreciated it and that's why they became stars.

He was good but from the clips I've seen his timing and feel were pretty awful and I can't imagine describing him as a "virtuoso" by my understanding of the term.

Nobody said it's not really music. But it doesn't make sense to try to understand him from the point of view of the pop music industry. It's pointless to compare his record sales to somebody like Elvis. He was famous because of TV and vegas not because of radio or record sales. He was about as much of an "amazing virtuoso" as Susan Boyle.

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:18 (twelve years ago)

maybe now we'll get cable films about Dagmar and Tiny Tim

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:25 (twelve years ago)

wk, what populist solo pianists from that period do you rate?

The Cement Mixer clip is a typical routine he would do where he took a song that was established in the public's mind as simplistic or novelty and add a huge amount of gravitas or virtuosity to it (Chopsticks was a major part of his act too). I mean, Slim Gaillard who wrote that song was also an amazing pianist - probably better than Liberace by modern standards, but the public at the time would still have considered his version of the song to be a throwaway novelty. So Liberace gets to show off, people hear a song they know and the whole thing is very jolly. People liked that.

everything, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:27 (twelve years ago)

The Cement Mixer routine is basically a precursor to http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=77&threadid=82861

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:31 (twelve years ago)

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?action=showall&boardid=77&threadid=82861

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:32 (twelve years ago)

To me, saying that he's no more a virtuso than Susan Boyle is like saying Angus Young is no better than Susan Boyle. It's showing a total lack of understanding and context for what you're hearing or seeing.

everything, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:33 (twelve years ago)

I don't know why that stopped working -- it used to auto-replace with the thread title

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:33 (twelve years ago)

To me, saying that he's no more a virtuso than Susan Boyle is like saying Angus Young is no better than Susan Boyle. It's showing a total lack of understanding and context for what you're hearing or seeing.

― everything, Wednesday, June 5, 2013 3:33 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a weird analogy that I don't quite understand. Liberace was a gifted pianist, but there were scores of people way better than him at every genre he played, so acting like "it's about the MUSIC MAN, he was a VIRTUOSO!" with fucking Liberace seems like ridiculous challops.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:34 (twelve years ago)

Not many people could do what Liberace could do actually. He is amazingly fast and technically brilliant. At least in the 50s. Later on he became a bit sloppy.

Angus Young is considered to be a master of rock guitar soloing. And he is damn amazing. Or is he just a showman, after all, his technique isn't THAT great. Lots of people are technically better than him. Like Liberace it's a combination of practise, showmanship and repetoire.

everything, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:38 (twelve years ago)

Angus Young is considered to be a master of rock guitar soloing.

no he isn't

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:44 (twelve years ago)

Yes he is.

everything, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:44 (twelve years ago)

Anyway I don't get your point. Does anyone listen to Liberace records for the music? He's known for being an entertainer, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that except that on top of not being very interesting musically, his performance was pretty corny and uninteresting as anything other than camp. So it's cool that he was a good piano technician and all, but those are a dime a dozen.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:48 (twelve years ago)

I don't know anyone that rates Young's solos as particularly revelatory, AC/DC is usually acclaimed for other aspects of their ouevre ime

xp

Mr. Scarf Ace is Back (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:49 (twelve years ago)

w/ Hurting on this

that Liberace didn't bother with radio/records + Morbz quote above about his being a showman is indicative of the music itself not really being the focus/central part of his appeal

Mr. Scarf Ace is Back (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:50 (twelve years ago)

he's about as great a pianist as Chico Marx

Mr. Scarf Ace is Back (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:51 (twelve years ago)

And Chico Marx is way more entertaining

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:54 (twelve years ago)

no, I mean Liberace is actually a considerably better pianist than Chico Marx to be real

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:55 (twelve years ago)

wk, what populist solo pianists from that period do you rate?

I don't know much about classical piano beyond Glenn Gould, but Bud Powell, Art Tatum, Thelonious Monk, and Duke Ellington are a few great pianists of the era off the top of my head.

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 19:58 (twelve years ago)

what is a "populist solo pianist"

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:02 (twelve years ago)

oh I missed the "populist" part there. who cares

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:04 (twelve years ago)

Liberace was a crappy piano-player technically. In no way was he a 'virtuoso'. He would constantly dumb it down to make it easier to play (and understand). A comparison to someone like Paul Potts makes perfect sense. Lee was an amazing performer/showman, and that is definitely something, but he was a third-tier musician.

Frederik B, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:05 (twelve years ago)

I mean Glenn Gould and Vladimir Horowitz were probably household names to an extent. They weren't liberace-level popular, but they weren't obscure.

This sort of reminds me of arguments I've had over Wes Montgomery's late records where he went soft pop, it's not that I begrudge the man for wanting to earn a living, I just think they're really boring records.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:06 (twelve years ago)

To me, saying that he's no more a virtuso than Susan Boyle is like saying Angus Young is no better than Susan Boyle. It's showing a total lack of understanding and context for what you're hearing or seeing.

Angus Young is only famous because he was in a great band that wrote a bunch of classic hit songs and he had a funny gimmicky look and performance style. If he was just sitting on a stool showboating on solo guitar nobody would give a shit. I don't think that's a very controversial claim right? Susan Boyle is famous because of her whole backstory and the context of the TV show that she was on, not purely for her vocal chops. Likewise, Liberace was a great showman who was a great pianist for the context he was working in (entertaining a bunch of drunk old people in vegas) but he wasn't even remotely good by the standards that most of us here judge most of the music we talk about. Does anybody seriously rate him as a pianist whose records would actually want to listen to? Would you go see him live if he were behind a curtain and didn't speak at all?

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:09 (twelve years ago)

he was "good" inasmuch as he could handle challenging material at high tempos, but he was also sloppy with often awkward timing and one of the worst interpreters I've ever heard

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:11 (twelve years ago)

he's kind of a butcher of classical pieces

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:11 (twelve years ago)

Would you go see him live if he were behind a curtain and didn't speak at all?

LOL. I'm fascinated to know who you would go and see live under these conditions.

everything, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:15 (twelve years ago)

He was good on Batman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jPGBQ77ddU

I mean, I think he was good--it's been a while. A campy TV show somehow seemed to be a good fit for him.

clemenza, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:16 (twelve years ago)

x-post

Uhm, every classical musician ever?

Frederik B, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:17 (twelve years ago)

What I'm trying to say is that you have to properly contextualize him. Not compare him to Glenn Gould for fucks sake, or Susan Boyle or anyone, other than people like Jo Anne Castle, Big Tiny Little and others who did this kind of performance and appealled to a very specific (though huge) audience.

everything, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:17 (twelve years ago)

I like Angus Young solos just fine, and I don't give a shit about the visual histrionics that accompany them.

Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:19 (twelve years ago)

This sort of reminds me of arguments I've had over Wes Montgomery's late records where he went soft pop, it's not that I begrudge the man for wanting to earn a living, I just think they're really boring records.
-- Hurting 2

I don't follow the reference so much as Wes Mont paid his dues and is forgiven for his cowtowing (as does Roland Kirk, but, i digress). Liberace was exploiting his panache to the "enth" power, and while that's about as commercial as it gets, i have no knowledge of the artistic space that Gould occupied. To use your Wes Montgomery anchor-point, he cannot be on the same the same plne as a guy like George Benson who was coat-tailing right out of the gate. Please elaborate.

bodacious ignoramus, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:19 (twelve years ago)

he's kind of a butcher of classical pieces

Did he ever play with any sense of dynamics? He just seems to bash through things as fast as he can, rushing and dragging when he gets to the tough bits.

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:20 (twelve years ago)

this is a monumentally stupid thread

― sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, June 5, 2013 12:46 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

care to explain why?

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 18:56 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

same reason as other threads where ilxors gawk in baffled astonishment at popular culture being popular i think

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:20 (twelve years ago)

we aren't astonished, we're just trying to figure out the appeal of a guy who doesn't really appeal to many people these days

that's fair enough, and doesn't deserve your condescension. at least you came back here to (kind of) explain yourself.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:23 (twelve years ago)

did you guys miss the part where i mentioned that van cliburn sold over a million records in the late-50's? you could be a virtuoso and be wildly popular in the 50's. lots of classical people were household names. caruso sold a zillion retrospective records in the 50's. liberace was a dazzling dude who dazzled people who would later have children who were dazzled by barry manilow.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:24 (twelve years ago)

What I'm trying to say is that you have to properly contextualize him. Not compare him to Glenn Gould for fucks sake, or Susan Boyle or anyone, other than people like Jo Anne Castle, Big Tiny Little and others who did this kind of performance and appealled to a very specific (though huge) audience.

well sure ok. you're the one who called him a virtuoso. now you're saying he's just as good as the people who played on lawrence welk or other TV variety shows?

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:24 (twelve years ago)

i think the whole "indefensible" idea is maybe a throwback to older, worser ILX. tbf i didn't mean nothing of worth has been said on here - tho i find a certain kind of academic category mistake pretty irksome - more that the premise and initial approach was silly

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:25 (twelve years ago)

xpost

to scott:

van cliburn was an exception though b/c he made headlines not just for his virtuosity but because he was this cold-war icon of american superiority. that sort of thing still happens now--classical musician sells umpteen copies of record based on some fascinating/media-ready personal story--although not at the same level.

that said you're not wrong to point out that many classical musicians had higher profiles, because there was more appreciation of that music at the time.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:26 (twelve years ago)

also people played instruments more often so they probably had more investment in following great musicians.

my grandma is a good example. she was no virtuoso but a decent pianist who came from a poor family and taught lessons to local kids

her tastes were not very "elite"--she might have been resistant to liberace etc. but she certainly had the various best-selling records of brahms, mozart, tchaiskovsky, etc.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:28 (twelve years ago)

and she had some lite-classical stuff like boston pops. and like a lot of folks she also really liked show tunes.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:29 (twelve years ago)

and loved danny kaye. danny kaye is critical for jewish grandmas.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:30 (twelve years ago)

also we need to mention mario lanza as a huge pop-opera star

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:30 (twelve years ago)

i think the whole "indefensible" idea is maybe a throwback to older, worser ILX. tbf i didn't mean nothing of worth has been said on here - tho i find a certain kind of academic category mistake pretty irksome - more that the premise and initial approach was silly

Noodle, as the OP, I've stated elsewhere in this topic that I like some of Liberace's recordings and have no real grudge or dislike of the man as a performing artist. However, nowadays for the most part he has fallen to the lowly status of pop-culture punchline and this is why I used the template, "defend the indefensible" - as a way of exploring why this once well-liked performer has tended to be derided by future generations.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:31 (twelve years ago)

Perhaps it wasn't the best approach, but it wasn't intended as a slight on Liberace.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:32 (twelve years ago)

ach it was part hangover talk. still, i don't see much mysterious in his popularity or its decline, this happens to lots of huge popular figures and mostly, of course, we forget about them. so much culture is pretty time-bound.

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:39 (twelve years ago)

you secretly love Liberace it's ok noodle we know

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:40 (twelve years ago)

Lee was playing popular tunes for people who enjoyed the tunes, the glitz and the intimacy was the icing - a guy people wanted to invite into their homes - but because the music isn't his own there's no real reason for people to go back to him - the niche gets filled by new acts more in tune with their own times

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:41 (twelve years ago)

we're just trying to figure out the appeal of a guy who doesn't really appeal to many people these days

check back on Judd Apatow in 30 years

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:42 (twelve years ago)

VG yeah i think he was p.cool but i have a bone-on for the world pre Reagan/Thatcher

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:42 (twelve years ago)

check back on Judd Apatow in 30 years

― ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:42 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

why do I have a feeling this is already an entry on your google calendar

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:45 (twelve years ago)

xpost lol <3

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:45 (twelve years ago)

Man all this talk and no mention (I think) of his BIG BUDGET attempt to break into film as a leading man, Sincerely Yours?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9bm5c-22T4c/TcpvZU1G1bI/AAAAAAAAFpI/Qkic-0VK1ks/s1600/lee%2B2.jpg

Detailed breakdown at Jabootu.

Clip at TCM.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:49 (twelve years ago)

dave kehr reviewed that movie in the NYT this sunday!

feel like tom green is a guy who is already in the category of "why did anyone like this dude's schtick?"

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:51 (twelve years ago)

"humour" especially dates fast as fuck mostly

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:52 (twelve years ago)

he had his moments (green) but mostly yeah

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:52 (twelve years ago)

you guys don't even get Bob Hope or Jerry Lewis

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:53 (twelve years ago)

I thought Bob Hope was just some guy who went to airports a lot

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:55 (twelve years ago)

how do people not "get" Bob Hope his schtick is pretty basic (Jerry is a different story)

Mr. Scarf Ace is Back (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:56 (twelve years ago)

I have this childhood memory of trying to watch a bob hope special and "getting" a lot of the jokes but at the same time not getting why they were funny, but figuring that I probably had to be older to understand. This one stands out to me where he says "I was just in Hawaii. I ate so much mahi-mahi that I grew fins on my tushy-tushy."

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:58 (twelve years ago)

Many xposts: IIRC, the Liberace "Batman" eps were far and away the highest rated ones for the series.

Mr. Mojo Readin' (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:58 (twelve years ago)

you guys don't even get Bob Hope or Jerry Lewis

― ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, June 5, 2013 3:53 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

who are "you guys"???? i think jerry lewis is, among other things, one of the greatest sound effects ever!

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:58 (twelve years ago)

dean martin also remains hilarious, but then alcohol is timeless.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:59 (twelve years ago)

i mean we're way off track but c'mon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yzmr7WqAwE

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 20:59 (twelve years ago)

re: "Sincerely Yours": man, for such a showman, Liberace looks so stilted and unnatural on the big screen. It's disconcerting to the extreme.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:00 (twelve years ago)

who is "Dennis Perrin's tweets"?

A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:04 (twelve years ago)

stage skills and presence and screen skills and presence are two very different things

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:04 (twelve years ago)

Clip at TCM.

this clip seems to confirm what I've been saying. you can turn the volume down on liberace's piano as he plays and the audience doesn't even know the difference.

wk, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:08 (twelve years ago)

Bob Hope lives on in the fact that ten years ago we had him

thot police (fadanuf4erybody), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:09 (twelve years ago)

I grew up in the era when Liberace was seemingly ubiquitous: my parents had his records, he was on variety shows like "Dean Martin," guesting on "Batman," caracitured in "Bugs Bunny." Pushing 50 years later though, I feel he's similar to the dated references to Eddie Cantor or Jerry Colonna in old cartoons.

New Authentic Everybootsy Collins (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:20 (twelve years ago)

i've been listening to mickey katz all week. timeless genius. some people are hust genius. great comedy lives forever. eddie cantor too, genius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z66tF_UiQc

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:32 (twelve years ago)

almost all the "novelty" performers of that era could play their asses off! homer & jethro, spike jones band, etc, etc. they were fooling around but they were in no way fooling around.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:33 (twelve years ago)

i dunno if it's "great" comedy that lives forever. some stuff does stay funny for a long time, true, but i'm sure there's lots of stuff that's uproarious one day and then tumbleweed rolling by and a cricket chirping the next

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:34 (twelve years ago)

ok i guess i mean "not all great comedy lives forever"

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:34 (twelve years ago)

loooooool @ borscht riders in the sky

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:34 (twelve years ago)

instrumental prowess in general such a big part of novelty performer's appeal back then. going back to vaudeville and all that. the guy who could play the fiddle like a demon while bouncing on a pogo stick, etc.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:35 (twelve years ago)

Mickey Katz = Joel Grey's dad, y'know

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:35 (twelve years ago)

listening to old radio albums all week too. omg, judy canova and mel blanc had me on the floor.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:40 (twelve years ago)

he was in the batman tv show and sparks did a song about him

too busy s1ockin' on my 乒乓 (wins), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:56 (twelve years ago)

his name means "free all-you-can-eat pasta" in italian

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:57 (twelve years ago)

how many people listen to judy canova records? how many people know who she was? way more talented than liberace. time is a cruel thing or something.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 21:58 (twelve years ago)

was she in batman

too busy s1ockin' on my 乒乓 (wins), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:01 (twelve years ago)

deanna durbin another forgotten semi-lite-classical superstar. also very much of her time a la nelson eddy and jeanette macdonald.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:02 (twelve years ago)

instrumental prowess in general such a big part of novelty performer's appeal back then. going back to vaudeville and all that. the guy who could play the fiddle like a demon while bouncing on a pogo stick, etc

I still have no idea how some of the City Slickers were able to manage Spike Jones' songs.

Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:03 (twelve years ago)

she was america's #1 funster

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_thlFYTjJbmQ/SkEXKlnsuCI/AAAAAAAAMBM/XB89GLI6p8o/s400/JC23.jpeg

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:04 (twelve years ago)

Mickey Katz = Joel Grey's dad, y'know

I didn't know that!

Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:04 (twelve years ago)

i thought that poster said "bathory tub blues goods pie face"

leno dunham (get bent), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:08 (twelve years ago)

same w/ emerson lake & palmer

Don't get this at all. ELP still get plenty of classic rock airplay; Tonnes of people under 30 go mad for Dream Theatre/Symphony X/Trans-Siberian Orchestra.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:23 (twelve years ago)

There should be either a period or a lowercase "t" there.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:26 (twelve years ago)

i still listen to hudson & landry records at least a couple times a year. i never get tired of them. i'll remember them anyway as long as i'm alive. i didn't have a normal upbringing though. i was taught at a very young age that ernie kovacs was a genius ahead of his time. try telling that to the kids on the schoolyard in the 70's. they don't wanna know!

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:30 (twelve years ago)

Btw, I like 70s AC/DC a lot but I never really thought Angus Young was considered a master of rock guitar soloing in the way that Hendrix or Clapton or Beck etc are.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:33 (twelve years ago)

yeah I have literally never heard angus young described that way

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:36 (twelve years ago)

Never found Angus Young to be all that inspiring, but I love listening to Malcolm Young's rhythm guitar parts. Perfectly timed, great riffs, 100% solid all the way.

Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:41 (twelve years ago)

angus is totally inspiring! i dunno, he's pretty famous for his whole solo thing. the running around and all that. its half his thing.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:44 (twelve years ago)

i mean who would you rather hear solo angus or clapton? clapton, blah.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:46 (twelve years ago)

neither tbh

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:47 (twelve years ago)

well clapton played with the beatles so he must be better amirite

Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:47 (twelve years ago)

neither tbh

^^^^^ OTM

Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:48 (twelve years ago)

i always liked his solos. i like old ac/dc a lot. i mean they are all variations on a well-worn theme, but that's okay by me.

scott seward, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:51 (twelve years ago)

how could you not like angus young???

unfinest DN (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:58 (twelve years ago)

like the solo to "you shook me all nite long" is so perfectly composed, i can hear it in my head right now, way better than any clapton solo

unfinest DN (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 22:59 (twelve years ago)

^^ this. Angus' solos are perfectly formed, not a wasted milisecond.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 23:05 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCJ-qARb2M0

Awesome.

Mr. Snrub, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 23:08 (twelve years ago)

Rolling Stone ranked Angus Young as the #24 guitarist of all time so fair enough.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 23:28 (twelve years ago)

Man, I do not agree that "You Shook Me All Night Long" has a more memorable solo than "Sunshine of Your Love" or "White Room". I just listened to the former and can barely remember it while the latter two come to mind really easily even after not hearing the songs in years.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 23:32 (twelve years ago)

If I give my phone number I could sing you the "You Shook Me" solo over the phone note for note right now. I've heard the two Cream songs a trillion times and all I can say for sure is that the "Sunshine" solo starts with Clapton quoting "Blue Moon."

hashtag sizzler (Phil D.), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 23:35 (twelve years ago)

"Years" was pretty exaggerated tbf.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 23:41 (twelve years ago)

Anyway, I don't dislike Angus Young or anything. I just didn't think of him as someone who is generally considered a master of rock guitar soloing. There seems to be enough evidence that many people do. This board's Clapton hate is always kind of amazing to me, unless it's based more on his racist comments than his playing.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 23:51 (twelve years ago)

Back to Liberace.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 June 2013 23:51 (twelve years ago)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swwPkWzxW-M

you know those grandma's who love to shake their grandchildren's cheeks. it's no wonder they went wild over this dude. he's adorable.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:13 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swwPkWzxW-M

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:13 (twelve years ago)

for the man who has everything, LIBERACE FRIDGE MAGNETS. featuring a koala!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Liberace-Treat-Friend-fridge-magnet/dp/B002PILVPI/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1370478476&sr=8-5&keywords=the+best+of+liberace

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:28 (twelve years ago)

wait, that's a dog. the hazards of posting this late at night...

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:33 (twelve years ago)

you know whose sunshine of your love solo is really good? jimi hendrix's. even bobby mcferrin's vocal impression of a guitar solo during his version of sunshine of your love is preferable to clapton's. even ella fitzgerald's scat solo during sunshine of your love is better. pretty much everyone does that song better than clapton cuz clapton is death.

scott seward, Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:39 (twelve years ago)

sax solo during spanky wilson's version of sunshine of your love also better than clapton's guitar solo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7APrMrPTpc

scott seward, Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:41 (twelve years ago)

Funny that Marvin Hamlisch's death is mentioned itt, as he was going to be composing the score for Behind the Candelabra.

Also, I think this is only the 2nd, maybe 3rd time Big 'Tiny' Little has been mentioned on ilx. I know because I searched when my wife became obsessed with him on Spotify.

2 huxtables and a sousaphone (Jon Lewis), Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:47 (twelve years ago)

pretty much everyone did it better than cream to be honest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBwIeQ_Ibs0

scott seward, Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:47 (twelve years ago)

you know who were really popular in the 50's and sold tons of records and who are revered as legends and whose records i can't sell to save my life: ray charles and ella fitzgerald. i thought people kinda liked them? even for two bucks they are a hard sell.

scott seward, Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:49 (twelve years ago)

I found a copy of Charles' 1956 self-titled comp in a bookshop for £2. Just spent ages languishing there. Whoever's not buying them off you, they're mad.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:51 (twelve years ago)

sadly no weird al accordion versions to be found

ttyih boi (crüt), Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:52 (twelve years ago)

I hardly need to add that it was one of the best bargain purchases of my life to date.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:52 (twelve years ago)

rotary connection guitar solo on their sunshine of your love might be my fave sunshine of your love guitar solo when you get right down to it.

scott seward, Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:55 (twelve years ago)

ironically, one of the worst covers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eC3NRRRi9Q

scott seward, Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:57 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbTqDzyOlrk

liberace soloing on guitar to sunshine of your love.

warning: may contain eric clapton.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Thursday, 6 June 2013 00:59 (twelve years ago)

liberace jamming at 1:00

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Thursday, 6 June 2013 01:01 (twelve years ago)

this also blows clapton out of the water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDhl9lQjmW8

scott seward, Thursday, 6 June 2013 01:05 (twelve years ago)

Holy shit, you weren't joking.

xpost

EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 6 June 2013 01:05 (twelve years ago)

the video has made me absurdly happy.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Thursday, 6 June 2013 01:07 (twelve years ago)

scott, i would buy (almost) all your ray charles records

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Thursday, 6 June 2013 01:14 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57W66QngYAg

also sweet

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 6 June 2013 01:15 (twelve years ago)

the trini version is awesome. one of my favorite albums thanks to my heroes boyce & hart creating the whole thing for the trin.

scott seward, Thursday, 6 June 2013 01:27 (twelve years ago)

yeah i love that album, discovered it by chance

sleepish resistance (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 6 June 2013 01:29 (twelve years ago)

Mickey Katz = Joel Grey's dad, y'know

I didn't know that!

A Schmoe Is a Schmoe!

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 6 June 2013 02:03 (twelve years ago)

omg, liberace + cream! this thread has delivered

wk, Thursday, 6 June 2013 03:48 (twelve years ago)

@normmacdonald's tweets in the past few hours:

example:
I just saw the Liberace movie. He was not gay. He stated this publicly. Aids is not a gay disease. Liberace was not gay.

interesting thread of tweets, not sure where else to post this. Gist being: if he says he wasn't gay, then is it fair to him to make a movie portraying him as gay?

now is not the time for motorboating (dandydonweiner), Sunday, 9 June 2013 07:41 (twelve years ago)

The MacDonald tweets are schtick -- he's playing "wind them up and watch them go", no more, no less.

Three Word Username, Sunday, 9 June 2013 07:48 (twelve years ago)

thx for reminding me that he is not funny

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 9 June 2013 07:53 (twelve years ago)

you know who were really popular in the 50's and sold tons of records and who are revered as legends and whose records i can't sell to save my life: ray charles and ella fitzgerald. i thought people kinda liked them? even for two bucks they are a hard sell.

― scott seward, Wednesday, June 5, 2013 8:49 PM (4 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's weird; I thought their records (especially Charles' Atlantic and early ABC stuff) would be flying off the shelves.

The first time I tried to buy a Ray Charles record was in Tower in Chicago. Checked in Pop/Rock. Nope. Jazz? No. R&B/Soul? Nuh-uh. Country? Nah.

The Ray Charles section was in the Pop Vocal/Soundtracks room.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Sunday, 9 June 2013 14:22 (twelve years ago)

When I go to Barnes & Noble the Elvis CDs are filed in the "Oldies" section. Which, yeah, fine...but that's not where the Beatles CDs are.

誤訳侮辱, Sunday, 9 June 2013 16:05 (twelve years ago)

Even when I was a kid in the 80s, I only ever heard Elvis (and any other pre-Beatles rock and roll) on the oldies station. (That format is now largely defunct in any market I've lived in.)

EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 9 June 2013 21:08 (twelve years ago)

In fact, growing up, no one I knew who was seriously into rock music sought out Elvis records. For pre-Beatles stuff, people mostly went into blues and jazz or else classical.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 9 June 2013 21:12 (twelve years ago)

i had a major elvis phase when i was around 10. my classic rock phase started about a year later (and never really ended).

dunham checks in (get bent), Sunday, 9 June 2013 21:22 (twelve years ago)

elvis was oldies by 1960.

scott seward, Sunday, 9 June 2013 22:12 (twelve years ago)

?

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 10:11 (twelve years ago)

he spent the entire decade of the 60's making movies. not that he wasn't famous, but he didn't have the smash hits that he had pre-army (except for right after he got out of the army) and to teens of the 60's he was that 50's guy. 50's music - r&b, doo-wop, pop vocal, rockabilly, early rock - was INSTANT nostalgia. the first "oldies" comps started coming out at the dawn of the 60's. they actually called late 50's music "oldies music" by the early 60's! this is not true of the beatles. this is true of herman's hermits. beatles unfluence and relevance never really wavered from then to now. you can still rip off the beatles and not be considered retro.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 13:11 (twelve years ago)

they actually called late 50's music "oldies music" by the early 60's!

Do you have a reference for this? Not saying it's wrong; just interested in reading/seeing more about it.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 10 June 2013 13:25 (twelve years ago)

There's a split with the Beatles, right? Pre-1965 Beatles was also on the 'oldies' stations back when they still seemed to be around. I still don't think I hear early Beatles on rock radio.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 10 June 2013 13:27 (twelve years ago)

There's still a split. I only hear pre-'67 Beatles on the oldies station, and everything else on the "classic rock" station.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Monday, 10 June 2013 13:29 (twelve years ago)

The TAMI show, basically they had Chuck Berry and Gerry and the Pacemakers side-by-side, treating Chuck as the 'old guy' and the DC5 as the 'new', both doing "good-ol-rock-n'roll"

Mark G, Monday, 10 June 2013 13:30 (twelve years ago)

i can show you a zillion early 60's oldies comps like this one. with oldies in the title. this one is from 1962 and it features a sandy nelson song from 1960 on it:

http://www.discogs.com/Various-Oldies-But-Goodies-Vol-4/master/270498

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 13:30 (twelve years ago)

Awesome, thanks!

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 10 June 2013 13:31 (twelve years ago)

you've heard all the stories about how the brit bands like the stones and beatles went to the u.s. and were shocked by the lack of knowledge (or interest) in the u.s. of the 50's r&b/blues heroes that the brit bands worshipped and in a lot of cases the music those bands worshipped was only 5 years old. but 5 years could be a lifetime. loved reading in that tom petty interview book about how little tom was obsessed with elvis in the early 60's and nobody he knew listened to or cared about elvis. it might as well have been rudy vallee.

in the brit group case a lot of that had to do with white/black radio play, but there was also just a lack of curiosity in what a 60's american teen would have considered olde tyme music.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 14:16 (twelve years ago)

otoh Elvis had a hit just before the Dying Bloated period, "Burnin' Love" -- while he seemed somewhat passe as I entered my teens, certainly not more than The Doors, who became big again in the late '70s ("He's Hot He's Dead" etc).

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Monday, 10 June 2013 14:25 (twelve years ago)

doors revival ground zero was 1980. the end in apocalypse now (79), sugarman book (80), doors greatest hits (80), and then a deluge of 80's reissue/archival stuff.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 14:33 (twelve years ago)

and yeah RS cover was 81.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 14:34 (twelve years ago)

Their version of "Gloria" was all over the radio in, what, '83? Yeah, whenever that was.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Monday, 10 June 2013 14:47 (twelve years ago)

Did the Doors sell consistently throughout the '70s? It's hard for me to imagine hesher kids listening to zep and sabbath but not the doors, but maybe that's an '80s thing.

wk, Monday, 10 June 2013 16:55 (twelve years ago)

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that they were seen as an oldies/nostalgia act in the 70s in the same way that Elvis was.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 10 June 2013 17:03 (twelve years ago)

Like, I don't see why they wouldn't appeal to Deep Purple and BOC fans. (I don't know if those two bands cited the Doors as an influence but it seems likely.) Iggy Pop and Patti Smith were surely citing them as an influence before the late 70s.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 10 June 2013 17:05 (twelve years ago)

Hi, class of 1975 here! Except for my one hippie friend who liked them, and Airplane and Dead, my hard rocker friends at the time were pretty much into Zep, Sabs, Alice Cooper... Doors MAYBE if they owned "LA Woman," but when I was checking "Strange Days" and "Soft Parade" out of the library my friends weren't so into those.

New Authentic Everybootsy Collins (Dan Peterson), Monday, 10 June 2013 17:10 (twelve years ago)

Tbf, Dr Morbius said the Doors were "passe" not "oldies".

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 10 June 2013 17:13 (twelve years ago)

I guess the radio I heard most in the '70s was WABC for the current hits and the major FM stations for oldies/klassik rock; didn't get into the weird album and/or nu-wave stuff til '80. When I saw Apocalypse Now I think I'd heard "The End" before, just not as often as the singles.

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Monday, 10 June 2013 17:31 (twelve years ago)

Harry Harrison was my man in the 70's! on WABC. don't remember him playing the doors. but i was a kid. i used to wear my harry harrison button and supposedly if you were seen wearing one you got all kinds of prizes. they never saw me on my dead end road in connecticut though :(

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 17:36 (twelve years ago)

when my dad worked on the ed sullivan show he ate his lunch on the side of the stage and watched elvis and the band get ready for the really big show. i think it was the only time he ever willingly listened to elvis music. during the show he had to stop teenage girls from masturbating. but i've told that story a million times. he even looked pretty elvis-y back then:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/20836_10150216646850298_3741937_n.jpg

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 17:47 (twelve years ago)

during the show he had to stop teenage girls from masturbating.

...

Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 10 June 2013 17:49 (twelve years ago)

^^^ O_o

New Authentic Everybootsy Collins (Dan Peterson), Monday, 10 June 2013 17:53 (twelve years ago)

It's a tough job but...

Bees Against Racism (Tom D.), Monday, 10 June 2013 17:53 (twelve years ago)

he spent the entire decade of the 60's making movies. not that he wasn't famous, but he didn't have the smash hits that he had pre-army (except for right after he got out of the army) and to teens of the 60's he was that 50's guy. 50's music - r&b, doo-wop, pop vocal, rockabilly, early rock - was INSTANT nostalgia. the first "oldies" comps started coming out at the dawn of the 60's. they actually called late 50's music "oldies music" by the early 60's! this is not true of the beatles. this is true of herman's hermits. beatles unfluence and relevance never really wavered from then to now. you can still rip off the beatles and not be considered retro.

― scott seward, Monday, June 10, 2013 8:11 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think you can extended elvis's hit-single streak to 1962 or even 1963, although you're right that his glory days in terms of singles sales was 58-59.

still i think you are overstating the idea that elvis was a "nostalgia act."

the "oldies but goodies" albums were almost strictly vocal-group recordings and have to be understood in that context. they were instant nostalgia for (what we now call) "doo wop," not "'50s pop music" in general.

millions of teenagers (and younger folk) made his movies huge hits (M-G-M's only guaranteed high-grossing pictures, in fact) until 1965 or so. "viva las vegas" (1964) was a huge hit.

elvis was definitely a has-been by the latter half of the decade. hence the need for a "comeback" in 68/69. i think it's actually after that point that he can be described as something of a "nostalgia" act, though NEVER in its purest sense. he was constantly recording new (and sometimes quite hip) material and was making great records (singles, anyway) for much of the 1970s.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 20:34 (twelve years ago)

i contend that "oldies" in the early 60's was more of a grab bag of 50's styles. early rock, girl group, r&b, doo wop. look at the track-listing of the album i linked to above. pretty common for that mix to show up on those records. later it became more about the fabulous 50's nostalgia for doo wop and r&b vocal groups.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 20:38 (twelve years ago)

huh. interesting.

i still don't think elvis, with his massive success in motion pictures, could be construed as a nostalgia act in 1964, much less 1960. there were just too many young folk (not folk looking back fondly on their late-50s schooldays) who were huge, huge elvis stans.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 20:44 (twelve years ago)

he still had tons of fans but to a teen in the 60's he was an old dude. someone your mom or older sister liked or used to like. 1958 was a long way from 1962 or 1963 back then. and all the heartthrob wannabes saw diminishing returns as well. and they were way over by beatlemania time. fabian, bobby vee, bobby rydell, etc. old hat.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 20:55 (twelve years ago)

a teen in 1964 was not buying the viva las vegas soundtrack. let's put it that way.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 20:56 (twelve years ago)

my wife claims she was kicked out of a movie theater for dancing too much during "Viva Las Vegas" ... she was seven ... not a purchaser of Elvis records, though

Brad C., Monday, 10 June 2013 21:11 (twelve years ago)

xpost

scott i dunno i've talked to many folks who lived through that era as a teenager and they loved those elvis movies and wouldn't miss a one. he was legit huge.

maybe it depends on how hip of a teenager you were. but by definition not too many teenagers can be "hip."

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:12 (twelve years ago)

but to a teen in the 60's he was an old dude.

this makes more sense 1964 and later. 1960 not as much. i mean this is the era of--what?--gene pitney, ben e. king, girl groups, etc.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:13 (twelve years ago)

i.e. not yet The Sixties©

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:14 (twelve years ago)

I think there was more of a regional factor in Elvis fandom than there was in the case of the Beatles (or Liberace)

Brad C., Monday, 10 June 2013 21:16 (twelve years ago)

i mean this is the era of--what?

Phil Spector

Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:25 (twelve years ago)

might be true. the folks i'm referring to are mostly southern.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:25 (twelve years ago)

i mean this is the era of--what?

Phil Spector

― Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, June 10, 2013 4:25 PM (12 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think i covered that with references to gene pitney and girl groups ;-)

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:25 (twelve years ago)

during the show he had to stop teenage girls from masturbating.

I KNEW there was something that seemed watered down about Forrest Gump!

Not Simone Choule (Eric H.), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:27 (twelve years ago)

chubby checker and the whole cameo-parkway family, spector, brill building, and a lot of holdover stuff from the 50's. the new wave was surf and jan & dean and stuff. pop folk was big. kingston trio type stuff.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 21:36 (twelve years ago)

i like everything on here except for bobby vinton and the four seasons and steve lawrence and the singing nun:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hot_100_number-one_singles_of_1963_(U.S.)

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 21:38 (twelve years ago)

1962 list lamer but still lots of cool stuff. one elvis tune.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hot_100_number-one_singles_of_1962_(U.S.)

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 21:39 (twelve years ago)

and 1961 list could still be the 50's if it weren't for the new wave attack of the shirelles and marvelettes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hot_100_number-one_singles_of_1961_(U.S.)

but that's to be expected that close in time to a previous decade.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 21:42 (twelve years ago)

and by 64 its all over. bobby vinton and dean martin still holding on for dear life. its a radical shift. its impressive! even if you hate the beatles.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 21:43 (twelve years ago)

links don't work :(

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:44 (twelve years ago)

and by 64 its all over. bobby vinton and dean martin still holding on for dear life. its a radical shift. its impressive! even if you hate the beatles.

― scott seward, Monday, June 10, 2013 4:43 PM (16 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i agree, but that's why i pushed the date up to 1964 for when elvis may have seemed like a genuine has-been

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:44 (twelve years ago)

Here you go, am: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hot_100_number-one_singles_of_1961_%28U.S.%29

A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 10 June 2013 21:45 (twelve years ago)

best 1964 list is ireland. dickie rock and jim reeves OWN ireland in 1964.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_number-one_singles_of_1964_(Ireland)

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 21:45 (twelve years ago)

oops sorry. didn't mean to give bum links.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 21:46 (twelve years ago)

its not like elvis isn't impressive. anyone who can make 400 movies in a decade like he did in the 60's is impressive. he created a deathless monolith out of two years of over the top cultural zeitgeist freakout. but culturally he was closer to dean martin if you ask me. he definitely wasn't motown and he didn't have a cool beat group. he didn't even play live in the 60's. like, at all.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 22:05 (twelve years ago)

How was Elvis regarded by country music people after the mid-60s?

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 10 June 2013 22:06 (twelve years ago)

i agree he wasn't very hip but i don't agree that he wasn't still huge

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 22:07 (twelve years ago)

xpost

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 22:07 (twelve years ago)

he was huge like dean was huge. they were both visible pop culture presences. they made movies, they sold lots of records, etc. but if you ask someone to name 50 things that remind them of the 60's elvis and dean might not make the cut. they were somewhat out of time.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 22:12 (twelve years ago)

meanwhile i'm listening to a great album from 1960 right now. its a very 50's record.

http://www.parisjazzcorner.com/en/pochs_g/093870.jpg

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 22:13 (twelve years ago)

i actually got a george liberace record in at the store. speaking of liberace.

scott seward, Monday, 10 June 2013 22:14 (twelve years ago)

I'm thinking of all the boomer-era stuff that MTV and VH1 pushed onto Gen X viewers in the 80s and 90s, like showing the short-lived Beatles animated series on Saturday mornings, and pushing The Doors, and re-running the entire Monkees series … to my recollection they never did anything similar with Elvis, did they?

hashtag sizzler (Phil D.), Monday, 10 June 2013 22:44 (twelve years ago)

love that atlantic logo

xpost

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 22:45 (twelve years ago)

and by 64 its all over.

see "do you remember" by the beach boys in 1964.

sleepingsignal, Monday, 10 June 2013 23:06 (twelve years ago)

i started a whole thread on this, it was a good one IIRC

revisionist doo-wop

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 10 June 2013 23:13 (twelve years ago)

if you ask someone to name 50 things that remind them of the 60's elvis and dean might not make the cut

elvis wouldn't make the cut if you asked someone to name 500 things that remind them of the '60s. he very much existed in the '60s, of course, but there wasn't a shred of '60s about him. to wit, the president he chose to visit in the white house wasn't kennedy. it was nixon.

fact checking cuz, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 00:39 (twelve years ago)

cuz OTM.

Elvis was definitely hugely influenced by Dean and maybe this is why he tends to be on the "oldies" side of the divide; although he was the missing link between the Sinatras/Martins and the Beatles when it came to mainstream musical entertainment.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 01:03 (twelve years ago)

if you ask someone to name 50 things that remind them of the 60's elvis and dean might not make the cut

elvis wouldn't make the cut if you asked someone to name 500 things that remind them of the '60s. he very much existed in the '60s, of course, but there wasn't a shred of '60s about him. to wit, the president he chose to visit in the white house wasn't kennedy. it was nixon.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, June 10, 2013 7:39 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that speaks more to our notions of The Sixties© than it does about, you know, people who were around then and going to elvis movies

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 01:07 (twelve years ago)

i mean, reagan doesn't fit into The Sixties© very easily either but you know there he was

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 01:07 (twelve years ago)

silent majority and all that

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 01:08 (twelve years ago)

or even silent minority

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 01:08 (twelve years ago)

was he a big name beyond California though?

although I suppose being governor of California means you're automatically a big name in US politics.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 01:09 (twelve years ago)

amateurist, i largely agree with you. obviously it makes a difference where you were, who you were, how far you lived from a coast, etc., but i think the bigger point is that there was a gigantic divide between the beatles and their fans and elvis and his fans. it was really two different worlds. and one of those worlds had a way bigger media impact than the other.

another thing about elvis in the '60s: his movies did ok, some did a lot better than ok, but his run of success even with those ended fairly early in the '60s. all of the beatles' movies, for whatever that was worth, out-grossed any elvis movies that were out at the same time. as did james bond. and a million westerns. and lots of other movie musicals. and all of those things, including julie andrews, for example, were more The Sixties© than elvis. by the time the beatles hit, elvis was waning even as a movie idol.

it's also telling that between the kennedy association and his '60s comeback, elvis had exactly one top ten pop hit. which suggests that, even to his fans between the coasts, he wasn't exactly a '60s version of justin bieber or even taylor swift.

and yes i realize that elvis' star looms slightly larger than bieber's or swift's star vis-a-vis the universe. i'm a fan.

fact checking cuz, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 01:33 (twelve years ago)

elvis bieber is strangely fun to say

wk, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 02:04 (twelve years ago)

(xp to myself) "the kennedy association" is apparently my subconscious' way of suggesting that oswald didn't act alone.

fact checking cuz, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 02:12 (twelve years ago)

its funny that elvis will really always be associated with the 50s and 70s. the skinny/fat divide. the 60s music/movies is all a blur to most people. so many movies!

scott seward, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 02:31 (twelve years ago)

urgh people I am only arguing that elvis continued to be massively popular in the EARLY 1960s, like through 64. scott said he was a "nostalgia" act by 1960, which is simply not true. i am agreeing with y'all and most other things.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 03:00 (twelve years ago)

This Elvis discussion reminds me of the bit in "The Outsiders" novel where Ponyboy talks about the differences between his friends and Cherry Valance. Something along the lines of "She liked the Beatles, and thought Elvis was old. We didn't care for the Beatles, but Elvis was still hot stuff."

Mr. Mojo Readin' (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 04:27 (twelve years ago)

Elvis had 21 songs in the Top 40 during his so-called down period of 1964-1968. They just weren't very resonant ones.

Sinatra had some of his biggest hits ever in 1966-1969. If Elvis was nostalgia, Sinatra was like the ghost of pre-nostalgia.

"The Sixties©" is the problematic concept. I think it's being too arbitrary not to consider Nixon, Reagan, and Elvis "of the '60s"...along with SSgt Barry Sadler, George Wallace, Debbie Reynolds, and so on.

Josefa, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 05:10 (twelve years ago)

or james garner!

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 05:18 (twelve years ago)

sinatra never went in and out of style like elvis did because sinatra WAS style. but also because sinatra probably managed his career a little better than elvis did.

for what it's worth though, sinatra's three most notable hits from that 66-69 period were "something stupid," which was a duet with his very-much-of-the-'60s daughter nancy; "my way," which wasn't that big a pop hit in its time (topping out at #27), and would you have any idea it was a 1969 single if you didn't look it up?; and "strangers in the night," about which i have no glib theory except that sinatra at age 50 was more of a man than elvis (monstrously popular but dead) or any of the beatles at age 50. i don't know why i'm arguing this. in my life i've loved them all.

The Sixties© is a very problematic concept indeed, as are most such concepts. so maybe it's the media's fault, but if you asked the average man or woman on any street in any city in the united states today to name 50 things about The Sixties©, and then tallied the results like an ILM artists poll, i'm still reasonably sure elvis would not show up anywhere in the results thread. but nixon most definitely would. sgt. barry sadler i imagine would get exactly as many votes as scott mckenzie. barry goldwater would get more votes than either of them. and dick van dyke would get more votes than all of them and james garner combined. no offense to james garner.

fact checking cuz, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 07:09 (twelve years ago)

"my way," which wasn't that big a pop hit in its time (topping out at #27)

Check how long it was in the chart for, though. In 1969, onwards..

Mark G, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 09:02 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgH286eOni4

screen scraper (m coleman), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 11:19 (twelve years ago)

Lee Marvin was very much of the '60s

ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 15:30 (twelve years ago)

same with george peppard!

scott seward, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 15:47 (twelve years ago)

i just named james garner b/c he's this straight-laced studio star who was huge in the mid-late 1960s despite not fitting into our notion of The Sixties. add rock hudson to that?

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 18:46 (twelve years ago)

well actually i guess rock was kind of out of favor by mid 1960s

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 18:47 (twelve years ago)

Haha, that looks a bit like recent Westerberg from the Replacements thread!

New Authentic Everybootsy Collins (Dan Peterson), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 19:33 (twelve years ago)

Sinatra TOTALLY went in and out of style. His initial appeal was to teenagers. But later when TV took over he didn't do well and was thought to be out of date. This is in the late forties/early fifties when he was approaching his 40s. He got dumped by Columbia/MCA and his career stalled for a few years until signing to Capitol in 1953.

everything, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 19:55 (twelve years ago)

three months pass...

I'm not familiar with the "pop classical" genre except through lounge / exotica albums I have. Is this really so terrible? The fifties and sixties saw the proliferation of HORRID easy listening albums - surely pop interpretations of REAL classics are preferable?

My grandparents adopted Wisconsin as their home and visited Vegas every year. My grandmother was a HUGE fan, otherwise she liked country music. You kind of have to "get" Wisconsin to appreciate Liberace. Wisconsin has loads of this Vegas stuff... they truly enjoy flamboyance, they're not backward.

Anyway I'm wondering if there is much to this genre from the VINYL era. I adore Ferrante and Teicher.

Categorical Cheap-Ass Attitude (I M Losted), Monday, 16 September 2013 01:45 (eleven years ago)

i don't think you need to "get" wisconsin, whatever that means, to appreciate liberace. unless you are using wisconsin as a stand-in for working-class america or something.

mantovani and boston pops also really relevant here.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 16 September 2013 02:20 (eleven years ago)

(--from wisconsin)

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, 16 September 2013 02:20 (eleven years ago)

Sinatra got dumped by Columbia/MCA and his career stalled for a few years until Don Corleone took care of shit.

Miss Arlington twirls for the Coal Heavers (Dr Morbius), Monday, 16 September 2013 02:38 (eleven years ago)

six years pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5meyAvvjhyU

brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Friday, 5 June 2020 18:05 (five years ago)

Nice work, Li. He'd probably have been good at that job irl. Customers would not want to skimp on the glitz in his presence.

Josefa, Friday, 5 June 2020 22:42 (five years ago)

The detour above about Elvis and Sinatra and the pop audience was really interesting to me, but I won't pursue it out of deference to Liberace.

clemenza, Friday, 5 June 2020 23:36 (five years ago)


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