Do bands OWE their audiences anything?

http://blog.thecurrent.org/2013/06/the-audacity-of-low-what-does-a-band-owe-us-when-we-pay-to-see-them-perform/

“We paid them to put on a show and they didn’t. They very do literally owe us,” wrote commenter Zetes Johnson.

No they dont arsehole! This sounds like a great gig and kudos for Low not playing things safe. Why are people like this so entitled that they think artists owe them anything?

anything that wakes up a Low audience is a good thing.

wait, i take that back. they are probably less annoying when they are asleep.

this performance doesn't even seem that outlandish to me

its outlandish if you went there expecting to hear the shorter boring Low songs.

"At least from a social perspective, we expect them to put effort into their performance..."

This is all I require, and to clarify in place of "effort", I'd say "creative energy" I guess? Merely acknowledge the audience paid money to come see you via your performance in some generous way and I'm happy. Not hearing a song I was hoping for is never something I hold against the band for example.

Haven't clicked link but no no no except yes they owe 1x performance but nothing else

when i saw musical youth live they did pass the dutchie TWICE. they knew what was up. true pros.

I guess whether audience members interpet the performers are saying "fuck you" through their approach is totally subjective.

My respect for Low increased fourfold, and having attended this event just for the fuck of it, was quite gleeful with the extent to which Current listeners (local generic indie station) were annoyed and irritated at having to encounter something outside of their comfort zones.

Like, their judgmental nature and sense of entitlement was on full display. Looks like Sparhawk mighta been alluding to an upcoming project too!

https://www.facebook.com/drone.not.drones?fref=ts

I generally consider it poor form to rebut strangers on the internet by criticising their grammar but I'll make an exception for "They very do literally owe us" and also hope that Zetes Johnson suffers an eternity of minor disappointments

Seven minutes into this set and I'm thinking Zetes Johnson is everything that is wrong with the world.

lowns

https://www.facebook.com/zetes.johnson

absolutely Not

Seven minutes into this set and I'm thinking Zetes Johnson is everything that is wrong with the world.

Or it could be this reviewer:

I could escape their assault in the Sky Box with a nosh and a cocktail until they left the stage, so no loss for me.

One of my friends and I went out afterwards and were trying to figure out what happened - it just doesn't make any sense. It's completely unprofessional and, if it was just a political statement, it was about the weakest, most stupid way to make one imaginable.
Yesterday at 1:37pm

Wow, ludicrous to think that an artist would use their high-profile appearance in front of THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN PERSON AND ALSO THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE LISTENING ON THE RADIO as a platform for a political statement. Couldn't they have stayed home and written a letter to their congressman?????

That said, stalking a dude's FB is kinda creepy.

i probably shouldn't have done that, god knows who will get ahold of it and start copying and pasting his status updates

lol

19 Minutes into this set and I hope Zetes loses the right to vote.

He should be invited to this thread, I feel I am owed that.

they played one of their songs!

i used to love low but i've only ever seen them once, a few years ago, well after i had stopped following their new releases. it was an outside show, and as it happens, they closed with 'waltz'. i was surprised at how well it seemed to hold the audience's attention, at the end of the set and lazing on the grass as they were.

also surprised, well not really but a tiny bit, that the band played the song pretty much as recorded. since i had never heard it live before i imagined that maybe they might switch things around a little. but it's a pretty well-constructed track, so i guess they just let it do its thing.

i.e.:

all of these people are cretins

The reaction to this has been pissing me off since yesterday, there is so much about this that just drives me crazy. Part relates this:

was quite gleeful with the extent to which Current listeners (local generic indie station) were annoyed and irritated at having to encounter something outside of their comfort zones.

― global tetrahedron, Monday, June 17, 2013 2:11 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

For those outside the greater Twin Cities area, the Current is beyond just a generic indie station, it is the commerical free, Minnesota Public Radio run generic indie station that is constantly praising its support of local music and caters to an audience who thinks their mild, mainstream, indie rock playlist is cutting edge.

Partly this bugging me cuz it's Low for crying out loud and frankly, this is a very Low thing to do and that people are surprised by it is just baffling. They've been a band for basically twenty yrs, they play in town all the time!

It seems clear (to me, who wasn't even there) that they did something different becuz they were facing a shortened set due to the weather. And they weren't the headliners, they were just one band out of 5.

Oh and hey, this was all taking place at a modern art muesuem, so like, shock there was some abstract art! They was onstage less then 100 yards from a damn Richard Serra sculpture!

I shouldn't let it all bother me or shock me but I really would have thought that in essentially their own backyard people would have been a little more open to Low playing a LONG VERSION of a song from one of their records.

http://dyingscene.com/wp-content/uploads/crass_fightwarnotwars.gif

"War is men's money, they pay with their bodies...."

Sorry, having an A flashback...

chr1s otm on all points

tho if i was there after a weather delay half drunk (god forbid) and in line for the pisser, i'd probably want to hear them bust out 'over the ocean' etc too

I think bands owe audiences something, but generally not what the audiences think they're owed.

frankly i stayed away from the Mountain Goats tour once i heard there was no black metal

I could escape their assault in the Sky Box with a nosh and a cocktail until they left the stage, so no loss for me.

a little piece of my Beano-reading childhood is defiled every time anyone uses "nosh" to mean blowjob, but I have to admit it improves this sentence immeasurably

Kianna Tichy • 11 minutes ago −
Yes low has a right to play whatever their hearts desire. But as a fanand Concert goer I have a right to be angry and disappointed! The drone that was played caused panic and confusion for me it was never ending and terrifying to feel as if time never moved. Music for me is uplifting and a spiritualawakening this felt as if I have been tossed to the lions. Low lost a fan and they should feel apologetic at least for the mayhem they caused.-hurt concert goer

lol

Different kind of spiritual awakening.

"I THOUGHT LOW WERE ALL ABOUT THE FLOWERS AND NICENESS."

what people complaining are wanting to say to Low is "this wasn't your show, this was a festival. festival sets tend to be packed with crowdpleaser songs and that's kind of the protocol." which is true. but I think it's awesome that Low said "we're going to do something cool" and people whining about it are like...are you guys fuckin' serious...you got to see something different, shut the fuck up. but a little of me sees their point, because festivals are boring and awful and uninteresting which is exactly what most people are specifically expecting when they buy their festival ticket.

Kianna is really making me wish I'd been at this

If they caused that kind of reaction seems to me their art was pretty successful, cuz oh hey sometimes art bums you out and that's cool too

I think Low should apologize to their fans, set up a free concert date to those disappointed, quietly lock the doors so nobody can leave (fire codes, whatever), play two notes briefly, go "It needs something more," invite their friend one M. Gira on stage with his band, then play a few songs.

their next gig should be them covering "Call Me Maybe" for 45 minutes

Do people really use "nosh" to mean blowjob?

was this at the walker?

Yes

Wonder if it's gonna be all the hits this weekend at Solid Sound Festival? That'll piss them New Englanders off.

Dear Zetes Johnson: The very first Rock The Garden featured Stereolab, Sonic Youth and this "rock noise conglomerate." Kthxbye.

Music: Sunship Sextet, 6:15 pm
Three overlapping visually and aurally eclectic sections will flow and flux between ambient, hard improv, and sound sculpture from this experimental rock-noise conglomerate featuring underground players from London, Chicago, and Minneapolis. The Sextet is John Vance, turntables, electric guitar; Emil Hagstrom, amplified acoustic guitar, flute; Matt Bacon, electric guitar, synthesizer; Weasel Walter, saxophone, percussion; Misty Martinez, shortwave radio, vocals; and Phil Todd, tapes, sampler.

I'd like to see people at No Fun Fest pissed at a band for playing straightforward songs.

i saw low open up for swans years ago and they could not kill our swans buzz no matter how hard they tried to put us to sleep. it was a hard battle, but we prevailed.

Jason Lescaleet played the Gap Band when I saw him but it was mixed in with explosion sounds.

King Buzzo said in their early days they'd loop an Anton Lavey speech that ended with him saying "HAIL SATAN!" for 15 minutrs, come out and play one song and go home.

Zetes, gtfo. Five bucks says he didn't even know the song was a Low song. POSEEEEERRRRRR

I'm starting to get this funny feeling that you think they're boring? xxpost

I thought being boring was part of the point of Low

It's key.

I love that Scott's point is that Low are boring, while the disgruntled folks online are arguing that it was some sort of nihilist noise assault.

its outlandish if you went there expecting to hear the shorter boring Low songs.

But this track is already 14 minutes on the album, right?

Anyway, I think that bands owe their audiences certain things: a performance of at least a reasonable length, some basic standard of punctuality within reason (a 1h delay is not so bad; a 6h delay might justify at least a partial refund), a minimum standard of sound quality.

People like to bitch about stuff they didn't like, right? Is anyone genuinely expecting money back from this? I didn't read the complaints that closely.

million xposts

I love that Scott's point is that Low are boring, while the disgruntled folks online are arguing that it was some sort of nihilist noise assault.

these two things aren't mutually exclusive

a lot of times i don't mind if a band on a bill turns out to be quiet and dull. you can talk to people!

audiences are pussies imo

otm

man the walker is just the best place

FANS FEEL LOW AFTER CHURCHY NOISE DISPLAY!

that would be my headline. i get that pretty/boring is their thing. they are kinda like going to church. you have to pay for the prettiness by being uncomfortable in some uncomfortable club. or church! they like to play in churches, right? *They Still Play In Churches, Don't They* is my new indie movie about a marathon Low set and a Unitarian minister's shocking crisis of faith. starring Kirsten Dunst as the indie rock collective's ticket-taker and Zach Galifinakis as the minister.

robert plant covered low. twice! they're not boring imo. favorite low song: 'in metal'

it's a little ditty about wishing you could keep your child small forever

where is MY headline about the Jazz Butcher Conspiracy not playing "Groovin' in the Bus Lane" in Williamsburg on Saturday night?

they don't "owe" anyone anything, but my wife doesn't go to Yo Ta Tengo concerts anymore.

I saw Low open for Radiohead in 2003 - this drone thing doesn't sound any more boring or annoying than they were that night.

Maybe he was waiting for the one that's all like "hey hey hey, it's like being stoned."

"C'mon" at least was anything but boring to me.

They can do 22 minutes of droney stuff if they want to..

However, they have to come back to do "Just like Christmas " for an encore, that's mandatory if they want to keep their fee..

I've decided that I live in a world where 'Just Like Christmas' is the only Low song that doesn't suck and nothing will shake me from this belief (for as long as I refuse to listen to other Low songs), so I'm sure these people are quite right to be angry.

I think I live there too

C or D - People who spend the immediate post-concert minutes lamenting the songs the band didn't play to their friends

I'd like to see people at No Fun Fest pissed at a band for playing straightforward songs.
--Evan

I dunno, people seemed to like Religious Knives the year they played

Xpost classic when the band in question actually did play that song(s)

Someone was yelling at Sick of it All to play a specific song last month and the frontman was like "that was fuckin' two songs ago! the fuck, were you in the fuckin bathroom?"

i was sad when the chameleons didn't play swamp thing when i saw them years ago :(

When I saw Rush last month (awesome show btw), this kid, probably 18, was lamenting that they didn't play "The Trees", or all of these other long-since retired 70s tunes that they haven't played in years.

Wanted to take out his phone and punch up setlist.fm if he is that concerned about the setlist prior to a show, but I was in too good of a mood to bother.

I would've been too. xp

They did "La Villa Strangiato", the 2112 intro, and "Working Man" when I saw them on the Vapour Trails tour!

yeah, they did about 9 minutes of "2112" as well, but that was it from the 70s. But he was whining about other songs that they haven't played in some time. Kinda felt like if his enjoyment at the concert was THAT tied to what they played, he coulda done some research first.

(though I do see the argument that knowing a setlist going in is a buzzkill, but them's the breaks when you only like a portion of a band's catalog).

Ha, I just looked up a setlist from the current tour. I can definitely see how it would have been disappointing to that kid!

heh, yeah, it was very 80s themed.

Speaking on a similar topic, I went to a Suicidal Tendencies show a month or so back and Mike made very clearly made it known that he was sick, but they weren't going to cancel the show. There were lots of spoken word bits and banter between songs ('cos that's what Mike Muir does, and it's kinda awesome), and this girl behind me kept...yelling..."PLAY A SONG!". And then followed it with "We didn't pay $20 to listen to you talk". As if $20 is a fortune (esp by today's concert standards).

She eventually shut up when they played "I Saw Your Mommy", but good lord was it harshing my buzz. The show got cut about 3 songs short due to his illness, and I'm sure she bitched all the way out, but good lord, do fans feel that entitled that every second that the band stands on stage must be filled with music?

I love seeing bands live. I hate dealing with the other people that are there that aren't in the band.

If I was in a band, I would hate my audience very passionately and I would want to punish them at every opportunity.

you should join the smashing pumpkins!

Deep roffles

fucking lololololol. hope this is a troll but i doubt it

Bloodie stools • an hour ago
If someone has to tell you it is brilliant it surely is not.The word art is used to justify the most the most disgusting attacks on our Midwestern morals(Mapplethorpe). We are preached to that the Emperor has such beautiful cloths but some are able to see he is naked.

I've decided that I live in a world where 'Just Like Christmas' is the only Low song that doesn't suck

get the ingo star cruiser cover version and you can excise low from your life completely.

this is the first time in my life i've been interested in Low

^

This thread title also makes me wish I could see Foo Fighters play a 30-minute noise set.

They're far too professional!

I love Low but I do think playing a half-hour drone set to a festival crowd is kind of a dick move.

i remember when wilco headlined penn state's annual outdoor festival circa YHF and jeff tweedy made some comment about how he's happy to be challenging the audience and it was like, dude, there's relative few people here compared to Jimmy Eat World last year, most are your target audience and they're just a little bored.

i mean did anything happen at the low show beyond some vague bumming? Sure there are ridiculous blog commenters but it's kind of more newsworthy when there aren't.

I love Dylan but I do think playing a half-hour electric set to a folk festival crowd is kind of a dick move.

i love the wiggles but playing a half-hour set of throbbing gristle covers is kind of a dick move

Similarly, the effect of this Low stunt will reverberate across the musical landscape and change it forever.

xpost Low playing a drone is unlikely to be as seismically important to rock music as Dylan going electric. I know it's a brave call, but I'm willing to make it.

You might be on to something but that wasn't really my point. Just seems like people have been getting their nuts in a tangle about this sort of thing since the dawn of time and if you applied their give-me-what-i-paid-for logic consistently to every performance, music would be a lot worse for it.

i could never truly love an artist who wasn't capable of pulling off the odd dick move

and fans are cattle so

It's a festival not a headlining set so nobody paid just to see Low. Bunch of entitled whiners.

I'm not applying any kind of give-me-what-I-paid-for logic, I just think it was a bad idea for a show in a way that Dylan at Newport was not.

xxp

It's such a load of bullshit. When did music fans become such a bunch of braying ninnies? Or has this always been going on? Dylan goes electric I know, I know... But it feels like I read more and more reports of people moaning about the Knife shows and wanting their money back, or people walking out of Black Keys shows because the guitarist turned away from the audience or whatever... Maybe it's always happened but Twitter makes them more vocal about it.

Why? It sounded great!
xp

Because Low aren't really a drone band (studio version of "Do You Know How To Waltz" notwithstanding), they're a songs band, and their shows ought to reflect that.

Maybe it's always happened but Twitter makes them more vocal about it.

Also twitter/comment boxes allows reporters to manufacture "quotes" more easily

I think they should be able to decide what kind of band they want to be, regardless of audience expectations.

today writers don't have to actually stop that grumbly guy after a disappointing show to find out if he regrets paying for that night's entertainment.

WmC otm. Shows ought to reflect whatever the artists want them to reflect. I can understand annoyance at expectations not being met (to a degree), but THEY OWE ME seems based on a fundamental (or willful) misunderstanding of the relationship between artist and audience, particularly where live performance in concerned.

i could never truly love an artist who wasn't capable of pulling off the odd dick move

― The drone that was played caused panic and confusion (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:48 AM (26 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Jim Morrisson, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Jane's Addiction, the drummer from Phish...

it would be cute if we could go back to old twitter transcripts from the 70s and see people being really open-minded and generous about an iggy pop gig

Alan Sparhawk to audience: "You pricks can throw everything in the world, and your girlfriend will still love me"

audience to Alan Sparhawk, more likely

(Alan Sparhawk threw his guitar at an audience one time!)

(should have bought another guitar then!)

think I actually missed out "you goddam jealous cocksuckers" from that quote above

Because Low aren't really a drone band (studio version of "Do You Know How To Waltz" notwithstanding), they're a songs band, and their shows ought to reflect that.

― my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 16:12 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

If I were a moderately successful 'alternative' musician who's been plugging away at his music for over 20 years, releasing albums and playing shows around the world, I'd reserve the right to inflict ear-splitting levels of harsh white noise at any little gobshite who felt entitled enough to tell me what I should/should not be playing.

They were on Kranky.

I was p annoyed when Sonic Youth played that 1hr free jazz freakout at ATP c. 2000, but that's cos I was drunk and wanted to hear Teenage Riot. But then not liking a set is different to objecting to them giving something different a try.

If I were a moderately successful 'alternative' musician who's been plugging away at his music for over 20 years, releasing albums and playing shows around the world, I'd reserve the right to inflict ear-splitting levels of harsh white noise at any little gobshite who felt entitled enough to tell me what I should/should not be playing.

OTM, and if I were an insect-music playing free improviser, I'd reserve the right to play "How High the Moon" totally straight if I wanted. Any audience member who comes in with really fixed expectations is just looking to get the equivalent of a handjob and deserves to get his/her pins knocked out from under.

drone not moans

In this specific case, my sympathies are more with the fans. Not least because Alan Sparhawk's political point at the end was likely delivered to half a dozen people, rendering it a little pointless.

Of course musicians are entitled to do what they want, and sometimes something great will result. But, equally, anyone in the audience is entitled to express their own opinion about it without being called a whiney, entitled dickhead by people who weren't at the gig. One musician who doesn't massively love playing live told me the other week that you can be an artist in the studio, the minute you play a show you have to be an entertainer. And I think there's something to that.

Also, with the Stooges – much as I love them, I wonder how many of us who never saw them live first time round would genuinely have enjoyed watching a sloppy mess with the singer offering the crowd out. It sounds like it would be great, but I bet it wasn't a whole lot of fun if you were actually watching.

I bet it was

song and dance numbers and matching suits or get the fuck off the stage

anyone in the audience is entitled to express their own opinion about it without being called a whiney, entitled dickhead by people who weren't at the gig.

I totally disagree with this! Nobody's ever had the right not to be called a whiney entitled dickhead.

gigs are shit, fans are shit, anything to break the monotony imo

xposts Right - it's one thing to say 'Damn, they weren't so hot' or 'They didn't even play Shady Lane' or 'They could have smiled and danced around a bit'. If the band turns up late or treats their audience with contempt or charges a lot of money for a very short set, it's totally understandable. But walking out / demanding a refund / bitching on social media about how said band has 'lost a fan' just because they dared to do something different is just despicable bullshit and whoever does it shouldn't be allowed to call themselves a fan of the band, let alone a fan of music.

people are perfectly entitled to go "waaah waaaah waaaaah i'm a boring philistine" on social media if they want to

Yeah, there's a difference between "Ugh, they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that every sucked" and "I AM OWED."

... if I were an insect-music playing free improviser, I'd reserve the right to play "How High the Moon" totally straight if I wanted. Any audience member who comes in with really fixed expectations is just looking to get the equivalent of a handjob and deserves to get his/her pins knocked out from under.

OTM WilliamMC. It helps if the musician pulls off the unexpected in totally kick-ass fashion, but I for one really love when I get to see another side of a band/musician/performer than the one I already know. It can of course be disappointing to learn more about a band/musician, but sometimes it is just the best shit in the world to be surprised by a capable musician. I mean shit, this is what makes live music one of the best things in the world.

I join all condemnation of the complainer's grammar, btw. And I don't have a horse in the Low v Their Fans race.

the audience definitely has the right to call Alan Sparhawk a whiney entitled dickhead

Whatever happened to expressing your displeasure by flinging a glass bottle full of piss at the stage?

this is minnesota, we have no such yobbery

I think bands should be allowed to play whatever they want and audiences should be allowed to hate whatever dull pretentious shit they have to put up with

I think the Low performance was cool though.

he should have let his guitar feed back on the monitor and just read from the book of mormon for half an hour. booyah!

PUPPET SHOW
LOW

should've told them to put the band above the puppet show

drone not moans

wibble not quibble

I'm totally on the audience's side on this one. Alan Sparhawk is not Keiji Haino. Play "Shame" or bill it as something else. The most "punk" thing about Low was its discipline, its inertness. I don't think this is about audience entitlement as it is about frustration with a band going bad

If Low wants to be "subversive" and "punk" then they should recognize that an @FU_LOW account is mission accomplished

The only things bands owe audiences are:

1) a minimum of 4 guitar picks and 2 drum sticks

2) the exclamation that the audience in question has been the best/loudest one on the tour, thus far

All else is a bonus.

"I thought this was going be to Cracker's 'Low'."

sorry da croupier, I hate to be the guy who's all like, "I joked that joke already" but

Maybe he was waiting for the one that's all like "hey hey hey, it's like being stoned."

― how's life, Monday, June 17, 2013 5:25 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sheesh, they played a well-known and well-loved song (it is a SONG, not just a drone) from their early days, not a no-name noise experiment, and it was a damn-fine version of the song. This is silly.

I would apologize for making the second Cracker joke on this thread but I like having outed someone as being proud of their Cracker joke.

Being surprised at Low playing this is like being surprised at hearing the BeeGees not play disco. It's a sign of dumbassedness.

I love how we're acting like there was booing and a riot instead of cranky post show yelping

???

I would be very surprised if the BeeGees did a concert and didn't play any disco

(post SNF obv)

Lol low played at 430 before bob mould, silver sun pickups and metric. An opening band annoyed people, film at eleven.

wow that is some rockin' rock festival.

i don't know what metric is though. maybe they brought the rock.

da croupier basically OTM but I want to note: I've only ever bought one recording by Low. It was a vinyl release and I remember it consisting of two long drone-y tracks. Going over their discography on Wikipedia, I can't see what it was. In either case, it's not really unprecedented for Low to play things like this, is it? I mean, it was MORE unprecedented for Dylan to play with an electric band in 1965, let alone at Newport, I would think?

do they ever use Low in any of the CSI shows or the like? their songs are pretty creepy. be good for serial killer episodes.

i don't know what metric is though. maybe they brought the rock.

^^^ hilarious

i love the wiggles but playing a half-hour set of throbbing gristle covers is kind of a dick move

saw Murray play a Go-Betweens cover with Norman Blake and Joe Pernice round the corner from my house earlier this year tbh. he's the most musically adventurous Wiggle.

A band can fill the set with whatever they like, but they have to open with 'Nutbush City Limits' to get a total free pass.

"hearing the BeeGees play a non-disco song" is a better way to say what I meant.

I think what you meant to say was "hearing the Bee Gee play a non-disco song"

OTM re that Yo La Tengo comment above. I saw them at the Blue Note in Columbia a couple of years ago on that spinning-wheel tour. We got Sounds of Science Part II. My patience would've been tested had I been standing for the whole set, but I really enjoyed it from my balcony seat. I imagine I'd have had a similar reaction to Low had they busted out a 30-minute song at a festival. I'd admire their chutzpah but start to nod off around the 20-minute mark.

xp ya that's what I thought you might've meant but that's not the same thing at all. Unless BeeGees are being all Radiohead-y about "Stayin' Alive" and playing it only when it feels ~right~. Not the same.

I don't know what Yo La Tengo do or don't do with their shows but when they want to rock out they play as Condo Fucks, no

I guess I just think of Low as "Sigur Ros lite" and if Sigur Ros stopped playing Sveng-Y-Englar there'd be carpools of really upset people

I guess I just think of Low as "Sigur Ros lite"

oh no way

Yo La Tengo did a ten-minute or so noise interlude in the middle of "Little Honda" last time I saw them, which was part of a set that had extremely quiet and short songs interspersed. There were also other rocking parts, so the answer is no. When they feel like playing as the Condo Fucks they play as the Condo Fucks, they rock out whenever they feel like rocking out (which is not as much as in the past perhaps, but definitely happens in Yo La Tengo shows).

goole I don't mean there are any musical similarities, I mean that "some of their fanbase is really into Low but not really into music otherwise". Which is true! for at least three Low fans I know. The lite referred to, like, smaller budgets

Condo Fucks is more about covers rather than just wanting to rock as I understand it.

Hell no do bands owe their audience anything. For one thing probably more than half of every audience for a band ever is not even really there for the band, the band is just there as a totem example of the audience's coolness, or a reason to be in a loud and dark room where beer is sold and drugs are done in the bathroom. Or the real show is the Rebel Youth Culture Mating Ritual, or pre-gaming for whatever house parties are going on that night. The band is just wallpaper. Even if people are standing in front of the band and paying attention to them it is hard to tell whether they enjoyed the show or not because nobody effing claps for musicians.

And as for people that pay good money to go to a festival and then whine about an unconventional set that gets written up in blogs or something: the band is giving you more lasting value than simply the concert. It is giving you content for your blog, or tweet, web forum or social network posting. Or maybe it got written up on Pitch4k and you can say "I was there!" and now you are part of something bigger than that one show, you have experienced some noteworthy event, something that possibly could go viral.

Really it boils down to your attitude as an audience member. I've seen bands end their shows with 15-minute noise thing where the musicians aren't really playing anything and there is a tape loop going and everyone walks off the stage. It's up to you to decide if this is brilliant punk rock or simply a band that did want to practice anymore and decided to take the easy way out. The choice is yours!

probably more than half of every audience for a band ever is not even really there for the band

Especially when they're an opening act on a festival lineup.

Yeah I feel the opposite of you Adam.

I recall the hoo-ha when the Jesus and Mary Chain first came out and they used to play 20-minute sets. Not that I ever saw them, but if I had done I think I would have felt a bit short-changed. I mean, Harold Pinter and Samuel Beckett used to write 20-minute plays but no theatre ever had the chutzpah to stage one of them and nothing else in an evening, they would bulk them out with other stuff

Yes, but they would have other bands on the bill too.

The one I was at, had Pink Industry and Sonic Youth on the bill also. I did not feel short-changed.

@ Adam The show you're describing sounds like my weekend and probably yours, but doesn't account for 90% of music consumption, which involves contracts, strict set times and curfews, etc. To say "the band owes the audience" is legally incorrect; the band owes the producers. The producers owe the audience. Both the concert that is listed on the ticket and clean bathrooms and non-poisonous drinks and fire exits.

And as for people that pay good money to go to a festival and then whine about an unconventional set that gets written up in blogs or something: the band is giving you more lasting value than simply the concert. It is giving you content for your blog, or tweet, web forum or social network posting. Or maybe it got written up on Pitch4k and you can say "I was there!" and now you are part of something bigger than that one show, you have experienced some noteworthy event, something that possibly could go viral.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:32 AM (1 minute ago)

TBH I would definitely not give a shit about this trade-off if I was originally hoping to hear songs I knew. Would not be a comfort for me.

"hearing the BeeGees play a non-disco song" is a better way to say what I meant.

Bee Gees played their non-disco material all the time fyi

I guess I just think of Low as "Sigur Ros lite"

I'm hardly a raging Low stan, but I'm considering penning a stiff letter to your embassy about this outrageous slur.

lol

Don't kid yourself! I been to Sigur Ros shows and Low shows and they both have the same excited couples with clip-on sunglasses and folding chairs

and tbf I like both bands a lot

"some of their fanbase is really into Low but not really into music otherwise"

this is tough for me to get my head around for, like, geographical reasons

one gap commercial can really throw your career into another orbit huh

The idea that the Met would advertise Parsifal and then instead play Terry Riley and say "drone, not drones" doesn't make me think anyone would be jumping up all ahem haven't you heard of punk rock

the same excited couples with clip-on sunglasses and folding chairs

or alan and mimi as fans know them

i saw the JAMC do a cpl of their twenty minute sets (one of which ended in a riot) and it was EXCITING and memorable - would've felt more shortchanged if they'd done a note perfect trudge through their songbook

xxp: I would rebut this statement (apples vs oranges) but I am too busy dying at your display name

i saw sigur ros in philly after their big baby album came out and they were pretty trippy! unique anyway. can't remember if i was stoned. i enjoyed it though. that show got taped for an HBO special so its probably online. it was cool when the dude was bowing the guitar cuz with the light show he looked like a scary spider.

xxxp loollllll NickB

DJP otm re apples/oranges. A predetermined/advertised program of music vs an unprogrammed popular music event, not really comparable.

Yah Ward me too. I saw Sonic Youth play "Burning Spear" for the last time ever and then do a 20-minute version of some NYC Ghosts thing. I saw Umi No Yeah take off all their clothes and serve the audience ramen. None of these bands are Low, you know? I got that Alan Sparhawk solo guitar drone record and I wouldn't pay to see him do it live.

This is what's so frustrating for me, listening through to Low's last five records. Don't they realize how awesome they were? The whole "there is nothing happening in this song except these four words" vibe? Now it's just whatever. Good for them, though, "Long Division" is a great record, hope at least they're having fun.

fwiw I've always been cool on Sigur Ros and post-rock in general but their live show two summers ago converted me utterly, it was awesome

And even in a preprogrammed event, audiences need to roll with changes on the fly. I once saw a brass quintet that was making a name for itself with Zappa and Beefheart arrangements. The program was handed out pre-show -- a classical section, a break, then the FZ/CB stuff. But one of the classical pieces was dropped and another added, and a new arrangement of a King Crimson piece was added to part 2. xp to self

yeah that simile wasn't meant to be a real simile

But people are making blanket "musicians don't owe their audience anything" statements and to that I say oh yes they do I have it right here in this contract

I think there's a difference between "musicians owe their audience a show" and "musicians owe their audience these specific songs from their catalog, played in this order and in this specific manner"

the same excited couples with clip-on sunglasses and folding chairs

or alan and mimi as fans know them

― dschinghis kraan (NickB), Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:57 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i really hate to lean on some localist cred here (since i have little), but i think you guys need to try to read this band a little more... closely to who/what they are? idk

the idea that this kind of radically odd mormon couple from duluth (not from either of the twin cities, importantly!), whose slow act has been a going concern for their whole adult lives afaik, can be stand in for everyfan casual condo professionals is really off

xps well it looks like you're deeper into them than it seemed, ha

and i have to say, *I* know dick-all about sigur ros, i kind of wrote them off as mid-period radiohead copyists

yeah I'll just fall back on this then

I think bands owe audiences something, but generally not what the audiences think they're owed.

― Home Despot (WilliamC), Monday, June 17, 2013 2:51 PM (2 days ago)

DJP otm

WilliamC I agree with you 100% but like on a "I saw The Zombies and they played two Argent songs and two solo Colin songs" sort of level

There's an obvious caveat to my statement in the context of opera/classical concerts but even there you experience substitutions/understudies from time to time; in fact I've participated in several large scale orchestral concerts where either the entire program was swapped out by the conductor (in the wake of 9/11, Seiji Ozawa substituted the Berlioz Requiem for "Scenes from Goethe's Faust" by Schumann for a concert at Carnegie Hall and dedicated the concert to the memory of the husband of one of the choir members, who was on one of the planes) or a key performer/draw had to be replaced (Ben Heppner had severe vocal issues in a 2004 BSO performance of Mahler 8 and was replaced with Vinson Cole).

yeah goole OTM...like i know ppl that know him and sparhawk is like.....a...really....different....dude

also i don't really see any parallels between their music & siger ros, like at all

the thing about Low is that they were always like super PUNK in a way, the whole quiet thing wasn't like shrinking violet wussy it was kind of actively antagonizing the grunge era audience...they've always been edgy as hell, i heard of them doing a crazier drone than this at a bar show a long time ago in duluth because people wouldn't be quiet so they played one chord for like a half hour

do they owe us some drone rock?
of course they feckin' do

the whole quiet thing wasn't like shrinking violet wussy it was kind of actively antagonizing the grunge era audience

I don't really get that. Was Sarah McLachlan also actively antagonizing the grunge-era audience?

they were playing in the early 90s indie/punk circuit and the audiences expectations were really different, not lilith fair, the shows would get kinda tense because low fans were famous for sitting and shushing ppl that came to rock and there was always tension going on...just saying low has always had a kind of low key "fuck you" vibe IMO, and always seemed edgy and i don't get why the current and the walker expected them to be all "HELLOOOO MINNEAPOLIS WHO WANTS TO HEAR 'MONKEY'??"

Oh, I get what you're saying there, yeah.

Yeah U.M.S., totally.

Saw them when they toured with Godspeed You Black Emperor right when GSYBE's first record came out, and the tension of that show was completely crazy. I had to leave the room a couple of times because the transition from the super-loud set from GSYBE to the ultra-minimal and quiet Low was so extreme, and the audience was so abuzz after GSYBE, that folks in the audience were noticeably bristling. They seemed offended that someone would try to play that quietly after the GSYBE bombast, and I got so tense cause of it that I had to go outside and smoke a couple of times. Low played that whole set completely stone-faced (and amazingly), it was really something else. Cannot imagine them as a good-times festival "hits" band despite having the tunes to do that at this point.

It's fairly funny that Zete's comment got picked up and run with, as it was buried within the original blog, and he got eviscerated by many of the other blog readers. It wasn't like he was the speaker of the house for the Low Butthurt Convention.

rollin' with the LBC

context also matters. like, I don't know Low, but I get the impression from most of you that this is not really that left field for them. Conversely, if I went to a Bad Religion show and they decided to play one 90 minute version of "21st Century Digital Boy", I'd be pretty pissed off, because it is the complete opposite of what they've offered at live concerts for years.

But even then I wouldn't feel like BR 'owed' me anything, I'd just cease going to their shows.

Summertime and the livin's easy
Bradley's on the microphone with Ras M.G.
All the people in the dance will agree
That we're well qualified to represent the Low Butthurt Convention

"Bee Gees played their non-disco material all the time fyi"

Yes. As Low get drony and noisy all the time. That was my, how you say, fucking point.

no one wants to know what you do while listening to Low

Check out irish times letters page today re neil young gig its fuckin hilarious and v on point for thread

this? http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/young-expectations-1.1433535

Sir, – On June 15th I attended a concert in the RDS by Neil Young and Crazy Horse. My wife and I decided to shell out the ticket price of €76 each (plus the unavoidable Ticketmaster add-on of €6 each approximately). We did this because one of the musical tastes we share is a love of Young’s well-crafted and moving country rock songs as exemplified by the albums After the Gold Rush, Harvest, Comes a Time and Harvest Moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT3jnu1yJO0

If Neil Young wants to see how performers ought to behave towards an audience, he could do worse than to sit in on the set played by one of his support acts, The Waterboys.

this is the most amazing sentence I've read today

oh haha shit i didnt know this thread was about the low thing. i think its pretty fucking awesome, and i think most of the bitching is coming from people who were expecting "death of a salesman" played 8 times in a row or assume tht everything from duluth sounds like trampled by turtles. who if you have not heard of them, keep it up.

If I was Neil Young I wd hire a flatbed truck and set my band up on it with the biggest amps the thing could take and i wd park up in Grosvenor Court, Clontarf every night for a month and play 4 hour noise improv sets

I love that the dude shelled out $100 or whatever to see Neil without apparently knowing who Crazy Horse was.

there's a great counterpoint to that Neil Young letter right below it in the link.

i saw it and thought of youse

If you want to see the source article that spawned those letters, it's here: http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/neil-young-and-crazy-horse-trot-off-with-a-whimper-1.1430607

But read through to the comments - they're awesome. Many hilarious anecdotes who people who apparently did not notice the "& Crazy Horse" on their ticket, and there's one poster who basically responded to like every one of those comments.

Oh, and the author of the article actually replies to a criticism by saying "My journalism is far from bad".

In contrast, what are some legit dick moves you've experienced at concerts you've been to that made you vow to never see that artist again?

I paid $40 for a Meek Mill/Tyga show (yeah go ahead, laugh). Meek comes out, performs one or two songs (which is him rapping over a cd, with vocals), then sits on the stage acting as hype man while the DJ plays about 5 MMG songs. Then he did one or two more songs and left.

rap shows are always terrible, for the most part

Smashing Pumpkins Lollapalooza '94 made me absolutely hate the band - took forever to come out (after having to sit through a screening of the chase scenes from Bullitt), sound was terrible, stopped/started songs several times, Corgan repeatedly hectored/lectured the audience, the whole thing was just so lame

Yelawolf was a rap show that didn't suck. GZA was good too, though too short. Best one I went to was Watch the Throne tour, but I mostly go to metal shows.

Yeah, Corgan seems like a dick. I get that he values the safety of his audience and that's great, but that he admonishes moshers at shows is kinda LOL.

though maybe it's because they were moshing to "Disarm" *shrug*

don't get me wrong I've seen a couple decent rap shows but they're the exception not the rule

ok i would really like to have seen that neil / waterboys / los lobos concert.

Both times I saw De La Soul, they were great

Trying to think of a terrible show I've seen and an failing. I've been in some terrible shows though (Shawn Colvin at the Boston Pops holiday concert... Yikes)

I get that he values the safety of his audience and that's great, but that he admonishes moshers at shows is kinda LOL

I'm not entirely opposed to his stance, especially considering that there have been two mosh pit deaths at Smashing Pumpkins shows.

iirc he wasn't rambling about not moshing he was complaining about feeling obligated to play "the hits" and other sundry rock star whining

I'm not opposed to Corgan trying to get his audience not to kill each other, due to those deaths, or stopping a show when things get out of hand. It's just that I've read some of his screeds posted from concerts and he chastises those who like moshing as evil people and thinks they should be ejected from the show, acting like they're miscreants. Moshing is fun when it's done right - no 'attempting' to hurt anyone, no involving people who don't want to be, picking everyone up. I have some neat bruises from moshing over the last month.

I get where he was coming from, but maybe is taking it out on everyone rather than those who are really to blame.

the only other terrible show I went to was Candlebox when I was 15, and they sucked because they were doing Hootie and the Blowfish, Blind Melon covers, and a cover of a cover (RHCP version of "Higher Ground"), all whilst ignoring half of the material on their (at the time) two albums.

Or maybe they just sucked because they were Candlebox.

xxxxpost:

I went to one of those Neil gigs and anyone who went for the laid-back country-rock Neil was in for a nasty surprise. 10 minute guitar feedback outros, reams of new stuff and a safe dylan cover, all with the stylings of the Horse and there were a lot of angry, unsuspecting boomers.

He should've had Sonic Youth open on this tour.

next tour he should get back at the fans at this venue by doing all Abba songs

Or by recreating the Trans set

He should have played Arc note for note

I personally would have no problem with any of these scenarios.

p sure I've posted this here once before but a friend of mine told me that Steel Pole Bathtub opened for Faith No MOre once by playing nothing but "Paranoid" over and over for 45 minutes. Not as a jam, but finishing the song, then restarting it over and over again.

That actually sounds p awesome though. and fuck it, they were openers!

I can't think of a godawful show I've seen, though when I saw the Pumpkins circa Melon Collie they played every hit except "Today," and then...second encore...ten minutes of poetry and noise! Their prerogative, but I dunno if "second encore" is where one should be challenging.

weirdest encore I saw was Meshuggah this year. saw them on the first show of their US tour, and the frontman Jens had the flu and his throat was killing him. He eventually told the audience he couldn't continue, but he'd let the band play without him, and they played one song with no vocals. was weird. then he apparently did an entire show that way a few days later. poor guy.

i saw the pumpkins on the mellon collie tour and they finished with a 30 min noise set then they all sang that lullabye song off the album

they finished with a 30 min noise set

o snap they previewed Machina songs?

Saw Smashing Pumpkins once at an outdoor festival in Chicago in the summer of 1990. A handful of people were milling around the stage while they played. The generator blew after about six songs, and you could hear the distant bray of Corgan chewing out the soundman. They got the generator back up, finished their set, and about 15 people gave them polite golf applause.

Then Green came on (with about 200 people rushing the stage) and embarrassed/erased the Pumpkins.

i have mixed feelings abt this whole thing but it did remind me that "dinosaur act" is one of the greatest songs i've ever heard

Moshing is fun when it's done right - no 'attempting' to hurt anyone, no involving people who don't want to be, picking everyone up.

I don't think it's the worst thing in the world, and I did it a few times as a teenager, but I've got no problem with any performer who doesn't want people physically slamming into each other while they perform. What if "people who don't want to be involved" would still like to have a chance to get close to the front but there is a mosh pit there? (And it seems pretty obvious that an activity based on people colliding with each other favours some people over others.) How can a performer be assured that everything in the mosh pit is in fact proceeding according to the conditions you give? Or that no one will get hurt even when there is no attempt to hurt anyone?

The performer can't, really, but even if there is no moshing at a show, that doesn't guarantee the safety of all of the fans in the crowd. Trampling due to crowding at the front of the stage happens at heavily attended festivals (I remember that one Pearl Jam show with Eddie Vedder crying and pleading as a fan was killed).

Most of the time, mosh pits happen in the middle. Typically, if you're in the very front, you're safe, but yes, I do agree I've seen times where people in the front have gotten nailed by careening assholes from behind, and yes, they're not wrong to be angry about that or at fault for standing up front.

But, I mostly go to metal shows (including Maryland Deathfest, where there was a dude in a giant chicken costume in the pit, and Immolation/Cannibal Corpse), and I will say those pits didn't get out of control. No fights, no dicks throwing elbows, no careening into people who are just innocently trying to watch the show, and all contained in one area. But I have been to shows where the behavior was bad, which I'm not cool with (a few in which the band had to chastise some of the fans). So I do 'get' why some people are annoyed by it, just saying that for most of us that do it, it's a fun activity that doesn't negatively impact other folks.

I think it's a culture thing, too, because at metal shows, the bands encourage moshing (while also encouraging taking care of each other) and often feel insulted if you DON'T mosh, but in other genres (ie Smashing Pumpkins), that's not the case. I dunno. Maybe I'm just butthurt that I indirectly got zinged by Billy Corgan.

Trampling due to crowding at the front of the stage happens at heavily attended festivals (I remember that one Pearl Jam show with Eddie Vedder crying and pleading as a fan was killed).

It was nine fans. They stopped their show early, cancelled the rest of their tour, and almost split up.

The performer can't, really, but even if there is no moshing at a show, that doesn't guarantee the safety of all of the fans in the crowd.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that performers shouldn't be able to take a stand against ANY potentially unsafe activity.

It was nine fans. They stopped their show early, cancelled the rest of their tour, and almost split up.

― Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Thursday, June 20, 2013 6:46 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

O_O. I knew about the latter two, misremembered the total though!

Supposedly, Pete Townshend (having been in a similar situation) talked them out of disbanding.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that performers shouldn't be able to take a stand against ANY potentially unsafe activity.

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, June 20, 2013 6:54 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Right, which is why many bands will tell fans to knock it off if they try a Wall of Death (though many still encourage it).

I guess it's just a case where I don't like being compared to the bad apples. Most shows I go to, the mosh pit is very uninvasive and goes on without incident...and can enhance a show. The only recent show I've been to where that wasn't the case, was more because the venue was so poorly designed that it was wide but not very deep, which essentially meant that everybody was at risk of getting hit, regardless of where they were.

I'm not downplaying violence or saying bands shouldn't take a stand, but calling people that mosh "college lughead types" and suggesting they're ruining the show for everybody else is what made me butthurt, I guess. For some, it's true. For most of us, we're just having fun - I am still listening to the music, and I only do it in fits and starts (cuz lol I'm thin and getting old).

But I do hate people who go intentionally careening into those who want no part (which has happened to me often, and I swing back), or, like the asshole at the Convulse show, who actually physically punch people standing on the outside.

It was nine fans. They stopped their show early, cancelled the rest of their tour, and almost split up.

Yes, at the Roskilde festival. They're very safety conscious there now. I was there a few years after and the bit near the main stage was broken up into sections with barriers and security staff stationed in between. To get into the very front you had to go around the side and they would only let people in if it wasn't too full. Here's a pic

http://0.tqn.com/d/studenttravel/1/0/0/P/roskilde-festival.jpg

From the comments box here http://www.uproxx.com/music/2013/07/exceedingly-white-postal-service-fans-flummoxed-by-big-freedias-twerking/

PowerClashing

ACTUALLY, it is in the everyone’s best interest if the opening act is the same genre as the headliner. Being an opening act for a major band is a great way to get your name out there and get some exposure. If that exposure is to people who are exceedingly unlikely to be interested in your music, then it’s a waste.

There is also the fact that the people paid expecting one thing and were basically forced to sit through something completely different (btw, I hate this argument, but I can see it’s merit)

This just in! Postal Service fans are tunnel-visioned dopes. Film at 11.

Thought this revive would be about Phish's "Harpua" in Chicago.

when oh when will ppl learn the art of going to shows LATE? especially if you have a ticket! like, you don't have to see that band, you know. you can just take your time eating dinner or something instead.

"i went to see neil young and this NOISY rock band SONIC YOUTH opened up... "

Big Freedia was making asses shake long before twerking was a thing

wtf, no. "twerking" has been around since at least the early '90s!

can't believe Postal Service fans paid to see only one shitty canned-music act but instead got two shitty canned-music acts

that whole article is very "white people disparaging 'white people'"

I for one fully endorse musicians trolling their fans

I cant wait for the cure tour with unannounced special guest vocalist fred durst with dan in the front row

That doesn't seem even close to being an impossibility.

I was gonna say

but instead got two shitty canned-music acts

booo (unless that's some sort of tortured pun about butts)

like a chump, hey
like a chump, hey

am I in the front row for the entire tour? that sounds pretty sweet tbh, they could get whatherface from La Roux to front and I still wouldn't care

ok how about dude from Korn?

http://onephishtwophish.com/1387990

It's difficult to get past this guy's writing style, as well as all the fan jargon, but I got a chuckle or of it.

"
There’s no doubt in my mind that we are the most passionate fan base in the history of anything,"

What the fuck is that

omg i just came here to post that.

There’s no doubt in my mind that we are the most passionate fan base in the history of anything, but it’s both a blessing and a curse. [... ]You see, while we are the most passionate, we are also BY FAR the most opinionated fan base ever.

Someone should publish a concordance of that so us no Phish people can understand

i don't understand that phish blog i feel like an alien

we need Phishgenius.com

I understand that I want that Phish blogger to go to a Katy Perry concert

Here's morrisey's answer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7S73rjSalo

waste of a harpua lemme tell YOU PAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DPECmjB9df0w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PECmjB9df0w

Im glad I'm not the only one who didn't understand that Phish blog

my understanding is that phish fans have been complaining about the band not jamming enough at its recent shows. they played "garden party" by ricky nelson at a show, which was perceived as a response to these "haters." then they played some song called "ha ha ha." then they responded directly to the complainers by talking to one of them on stage at a show, though it was unclear to me from the blog post if this was a real complainer or a mock complainer.

i gleaned most of this by listening to the "analyze phish" podcast.

cheers!

oh that could all be totally wrong btw

I just hope HA HA HA is the flipper song

xps I sort of feel sorry for Phish. It's hard enough playing the same actual point-a-to-point-b songs with the same guys in your band for 30 years. I imagine harikiri would be preferable to "jamming" endlessly with them.

don't feel sorry for phish. they're rich.

Okay, I know nothing about Phish or "Harpua", but find this whole thing fascinatingly funny. The wiki description of the song makes Zappa's "Thing Fish" seem like high art by comparison.

i am totally obsessed with GAMEHENDGE now.

It's hard enough playing the same actual point-a-to-point-b songs with the same guys in your band for 30 years. I imagine harikiri would be preferable to "jamming" endlessly with them.

Why? This sounds like it could at least provide a little more variety than playing the exact same songs the exact same way for 30 years.

Garden Party.

We finally meet Chris and Julie, who Page says is “representing Poster Nutbag The Right Way.” If this isn’t clear to you at this point, I don’t know what you are thinking.

One fan then mentions the emergence of Al Gore (the Internet?), before the rapping begins, and ends when one fan says “I believe in women’s right to choose.”

my friend shared with me his theory that this references all the “aborted” jams

o_O

so....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lHFI3yS5vk

discussion of phish now also going on here: Phish C/D

What happens when there's two types of people who like a music/band and feel 'owed' different things from it?

from Philly...OF COURSE

so the whole thing was a set up and the 1st 2 guys werent really who they said they were?