Rock and Roll by Led Zeppelin vs Rock and Roll by Velvet Underground

there probably is a VU song I like more than any given Zep song but right now I can't think of one

VU

The Velvets song has heart. But Football In The Groin has John Bonham.

Zep

If there was a jukebox in the world that had only the entire VU catalog plus "Boogie With Stu," I would play "Boogie With Stu" over and over and over. Therefore, Led Zeppelin.

VU

I'm not sure which one is better but I know which one rocks harder/sounds like an actual rock n roll song. in the original version of the VU song, the guitar is practically playing a bossa nova figure

Also, never forget Charles "Keep A Knockin'" Connor. http://www.legendarydrummer.tv/

In that one sound like an actual, specific, rock n roll song.

playing VU's track and it's not their fault at all and they came first but my first reaction is that it sounds like Belle & Sebastian

Oh, it's definitely their fault, Dan.

haha well I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt

This is going to turn into one of those thousand post take-no-prisoners threads, isn't it. Waiting for a voice of reason who can see both sides like Sund4r to arrive.

Phil D my man

zep

I can def see both sides. as would be expected Lou does something a good deal more interesting lyrically than Plant's sub-Mike Love schtick, positioning r-n-r as an anti-suburban, anti-consumerist, anti-herenormative cultural oasis

"When The Levee Breaks" vs. "Ocean"

VU song doesn't really start to "rock" until the drums shift into that Motown stomp rhythm and the distorted guitars take over

I'm not even much of a Zep fan, and this is Zep by far for me.

"When The Levee Breaks" vs. "Ocean"

You could actually do "Ocean" versus "The Ocean."

yep it's zep

woo it's the VU

don't be bitter, it's not gary glitter

it was all right

yep it's zep

^ title of failed Monkees-esque Led Zeppelin sitcom.

One's about looking forward. One's about looking backwards.

I'd vote VU over Zep but Zep wins this

VU over Zep in an artists poll, i mean

Both absolutely brilliant, little tired of LZ's at this particular point in my life. Prefer the VU's "Rock and Roll" as originally released, rather than the alternate version that came out years later (which may in fact be the true original); even more so when it comes to "Sweet Jane."

I think of Cadillac cars when I hear Zep's, so I'm going with the Velvets.

velvet goldmine

Sadly I can only picture Cadillacs when I listen to Zep's. Because I was like 12 when that ad came out. Although the version on "How the West..." is friggin tremendous. Alas, going with VU here

oh, ha, didn't see Alex's post. honestly think that ad was what made 12 year old me get sick of classic rock at last though

Don't know if those last posts have a double meaning, but it's VU who actually mention Cadillacs in their song.

like a rock, i was strong as i could be

I'd say the VU's "Rock and Roll" a better song but Led Zep's is a more of a classic recording with Bonzo' really laying out a bad ass drum lick to open the tune.

Other options -

ZZ Top vs. Rolling Stones "Brown Sugar"
Grand Funk Railroad vs. Black Sabbath "Paranoid"

Been a long time since/her life was changed by rock and roll

Don't know if those last posts have a double meaning, but it's VU who actually mention Cadillacs in their song.

― clemenza, Monday, September 16, 2013 5:27 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpD7f8gWgDg

lol @ cadillac talk

No, I got the reference to the Led Zeppelin Cadillac commercial--just was pointing out that the other "Rock and Roll" actually mentions Cadillacs.

VU...the Loaded version is quite possibly Lou's greatest vocal

otm. Good thing he didn't let Doug sing it.

feel like people who'd pick the velvets are lying to themselves

Although the version on "How the West..." is friggin tremendous.

If this was between live Velvets and live Zep, I'd give it to the Velvets hands-down, even though I voted for Zep in this poll. Except for Jones and Bonham (mostly), live Zeppelin was a winded, unfocused, fumbling mess.

Tend to be underwhelmed by tunes with "Rock 'n Roll" in the title, feel like they end up succumbing to the truism of trying too hard to live up to their name and failing, making me want to listen to some actual 50s stuff from the official Rock and Roll Era like, um, Little Richard. Lou Reed finesses this by being deliberately underwhelming in the first part, since he is just telling the story of how her life was saved by rock and roll but she hasn't actually been saved until the latter part of the song. /its_quine_time

Forgot to mention Lou's rule that anyone who played a blues lick would be fined and him saying "Everyone's going crazy over all the old blues people but they're forgetting about all those groups, like The Spaniels, people like that. Records like "Smoke From Your Cigarette," and "I Need A Sunday Kind of Love," "The Wind" by The Jesters, "Later For You, Baby" by The Solitaires. All those really ferocious records that no one seems to listen to anymore are underneath everything we're playing. No one really knows that."

"Despite all the amputations / You know you could just go out / And dance to a rock 'n' roll station"

The Velvets espouse Rock's ability to bestow dancing prowess upon the limbless.

FACT

(Thought "The Wind" was by The Diablos, one of Jonathan Richman's favorite groups besides The Velvets, but I guess this is the cover version. Source had it as *The Chesters*)

I've always wanted to know what exactly a five-year-old expected to be happenin' anyway. Like was she reading "Ondine's Big Book of Fun for Kindergarteners" and dreaming of the big city?

ositioning r-n-r as an ... anti-herenormative cultural oasis

How does the VU song do this?

This is one of the most basic songs Zep ever did but the performance and recording/production really make it work for me.

Like it fine, but prefer the more dirgelike or dronelike stuff to the rocking and riffing stuff.

Both of these are great songs by great bands, and they are great in entirely different ways. My vote came down to, which one has Ian Stewart?

Zep.

VU

This is probably the only time I'll bote Zep over VU

here's a lunkhead rock version of the VU song for yr consideration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mag6jxiHXXk

Both of these are great songs by great bands, and they are great in entirely different ways. My vote came down to, which one has Ian Stewart?

Voting VU, it's my favourite thing on Loaded. The Led Zep song has an amazing drum intro but the rest of it is just 'good'.

I like Zep, an amusing little band, but VU wins this easily

VU, too

my first reaction is that it sounds like Belle & Sebastian

If it did I might actually like B+S more than I do... which is not at all

.. not at awawawwwwwllll....

Every time she sips on the tiger milk, you know there's nothing going down at all, not just a tiny bit

she started dancin' to that Lazy line painter.. you know her life was saved by Monica Queen!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzzBAMb3zVM

Anyone ever hear that amazing rocksteady revival group formed by ex-members of Led Zep and VU? The Bonzo Doug Lou Ska Band, check 'em out.

hahaha

hahaha lock it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R98NOTorTVQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFkHgj1j8U8

positioning r-n-r as an ... anti-herenormative cultural oasis

How does the VU song do this?How does the VU song do this?

Lou is Jane

er Jenny

On the gender switching tip: Heart's cover of Zep's "Rock and Roll" vs the Runaways' cover of the Velvets' "Rock and Roll"

xpost. If Lou is Jenny, what New York station was playing Rock'n'Roll in 1947?

Then there's this:

"'Rock & Roll,'" he admitted in the liner notes to the VU box set Peel Slowly and See, "is about me. If I hadn't heard rock & roll on the radio, I would have had no idea there was life on this planet."

Zep. As an ex-Lou-worshipper my relationship to the VU canon is complicated but even back in the day this wasn't my favorite Velvets tune and besides...John Bonham is like the voice of God on this track

beenalongtimebeenalongtimebeenalongtiiiiiiimebeenalonglonelylonelylonelylonelylonelytime

To me, this poll is about about Jane's Addiction's cover of Rock and Roll vs. 4 Non Blondes (with Dave Navarro)'s cover of Misty Mountain Hop.

4 Non Blondes (with Dave Navarro)'s cover of Misty Mountain Hop

I've always liked you but now that you've made me aware of this we have beef

well aware of aero's hate for Loaded but don't think I've ever seen him stan for Zep before

voice of god otm ooooohyeah ooooeyeah

well aware of aero's hate for Loaded but don't think I've ever seen him stan for Zep before

I consider Led Zeppelin one of the best bands of all time - if I did a best rock bands top 20, the Velvets'd be on there too, but they probably wouldn't make my 10 whereas Zeppelin's top 10 easy and probably top 5. as I say some of this is that for me the Velvets are nostalgia - the only one that really sounds at all fresh to me any more is White Light, the rest of it is like "remember how this used to blow your mind when you were a kid?" whereas Zeppelin is like - the longer I like music the more I like Led Zeppelin

that's just for me, no shots, I'm glad other people still dig the Velvets and all. except Loaded obviously who could listen to that pile of crap

and besides...John Bonham is like the voice of God on this track

the only one that really sounds at all fresh to me any more is White Light, the rest of it is like "remember how this used to blow your mind when you were a kid?" whereas Zeppelin is like - the longer I like music the more I like Led Zeppelin

otm & otm!!!

If this was between live Velvets and live Zep, I'd give it to the Velvets hands-down, even though I voted for Zep in this poll. Except for Jones and Bonham (mostly), live Zeppelin was a winded, unfocused, fumbling mess.

― punt cased (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, September 16, 2013 9:02 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is largely otm but I like the live version because the song doesn't have much room to meander, forcing them to tackle the song in a relatively straightforward fashion, and thus their power as instrumentalists shines through. the extended outro is pretty hilarious and overdone, though.

i'm talking about the part here from about 3:15 on. they just had to force some unnecessary chaff into it, SOMEWHERE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM6ppOUlxRY

The VU song is cool, ok, cos it's the VU, and it's Lou Reed being cool and all. But it's really a pretty lame song for something titled "Rock and Roll". Led Zep blows it away.

"It's been a long time since I rock and rolled" = too much time in the Welsh countryside doing Tolkien jams around the campfire? Although I do appreciate the band's nod to roots rock and roll, this is kind of a throwaway track that cast in a different light and recorded with different instrumentation is probably more fitting on the Honeydrippers EP. Also Plant rhymes "love" with "love" in the 2nd verse (3rd verse on live versions).

"Her life was saved by rock and roll" = particularly as one of the last songs the band would record with Lou as their leader, this lyric carries a bit more weight than some dude being nostalgic about the last time he did The Stroll. Live 1969 vinyl version is the absolute best take, with the crazy trebly freakout outro. The solo on the Loaded version always felt way too tame compared to the wall of free/noise they were doing live.

Love both bands but this is the VU.

Here it feels like Led Zep is more into showing rather than telling. VU, as cool and life-saving as the story is, is just telling a story. The Zep song is living the story.

this is largely otm but I like the live version because the song doesn't have much room to meander, forcing them to tackle the song in a relatively straightforward fashion, and thus their power as instrumentalists shines through. the extended outro is pretty hilarious and overdone, though.

― global tetrahedron, Tuesday, September 17, 2013 1:25 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this does work pretty well, and it's my second...no, third...favorite live Zeppelin track (first is "Train Kept A-Rollin'," second is "Dazed & Confused" from whatever TV show did the close-up of Page's bow on his Tele). My only quibble is with Page's soloing, which live was hit-or-miss at best. But he's such a great rhythm player; for live work, they should've had Eddie Hazel as a second guitarist just to do all the solos.

must ... not ... repost ... recent photo of Page and Lou

I had to go with VU here. Anything off Zeppelin IV is like a 3 am car alarm to my ears at this point.

Change that. Anything by Zeppelin not on III or the first four songs on Presence is like a 3 am car alarm to my ears

I'll give Carouselambra a waiver on that.

Bill I thought I knew you

lol aero Bill's hatred of Zep is legendary

or did you miss that whole Zep vs Sabbath thread

But what does he think of Paul Simon?

not as good as Garfunkel

stole from african/brazilian musicians the same way zep stole from bluesmen/that dazed-and-confused guy

Probably would have been fair for me to sit this one out. i do truly like the VU song though.

No real take on Simon or Garfunkel. I love Yes' version of "America" but i havent even heard the original.

stole from african/brazilian musicians the same way zep stole from bluesmen/that dazed-and-confused guy

― mookieproof, Tuesday, September 17, 2013 2:16 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Lol, I'm mellower now. Im not going near this.

can't forgive Zep for ripping off Matthew McConaughey

*bongo solo*

oh that's right I totally forgot about Bill and Zeppelin! fair enough

"Her life was saved by rock and roll" = particularly as one of the last songs the band would record with Lou as their leader, this lyric carries a bit more weight than some dude being nostalgic about the last time he did The Stroll.

Are the VU lyrics meant to be something other than cute and funny? I mean, we're not actually supposed to believe that a five-year-old was saved from an existential crisis, right?

Anyway, I might fail as a voice of reason here. I love the Zep song, almost despite myself, and was never a fan of the VU song even at the height of my fandom. (I probably lean towards aero's take on the two bands' relative merits. Using the viola as a rock instrument was really cool though.) Plant's performance is electrifying regardless of the lyrics.

Cool interplay of guitar tones on the Zep recording too.

I mean, we're not actually supposed to believe that a five-year-old was saved from an existential crisis, right?

I didn't realize Jim DeRogatis was back on ILM.

(I probably lean towards aero's take on the two bands' relative merits.

Actually, first two VU albums vs first two Zep albums would be an interesting challenge for me. VU might win that one.

xpost I'm not really sure what you mean but I think it's a dis so :(.

Like, I do think the VU lyrics are cute and funny! I'd probably give this to them if this were just about lyrics. Just the way people were talking about the VU lyrics and their life-saving weight made me wonder how people read them.

TS: electric viola vs. violin-bow-on-Telecaster

both songs are relatively catchy but lightweight "hooray for music!" numbers, i just give it to Zep for pummel. If I'd give it to VU over Zep career-wise, it's mostly for the relative tightness of VUs discography. VU I-IV vs LZ I-IV would be tougher.

while nostalgia for mind-blowings past undoubtedly plays a big part in my VU appreciation today, aero underrates the banana album on the "fresh" factor, though - step back from the legacy/hype/etc and it's such a perverse creation, not just the breadth of influences but how they're rolled out, track to track.

xpost I'm not really sure what you mean but I think it's a dis so :(.

Sorry, meant as an affectionate jape. On the DeRogatis thread there was discussion of his literal interpretation of lyrics.

But in all honesty, I normally wouldn't believe that a five-year-old was saved from an existential crisis, but I do in that song.

both groups are Hall Of Fame for amalgamating sounds no one was asking them to amalgamate, but Zep's bulldozer quality makes it hard not to go with them when it comes to the yee-ha stuff

Think it's some kind of David Copperfield thing, in which the perspective of the child and the grownup they became are intermingled.
(Xp)

Both great songs - this is tough. I agree the Zep track is kind of a throwaway, but it really shows how they could elevate seemingly pedestrian material. The drums are nice, but I think the real standout is Plant's vocal performance. What a set of pipes! I do love the way it seems to speed up midway through too.

Nonetheless, I think my heart is with the VU song. No, it doesn't exactly rock, but it does a kind of caffeinated boogie. It's hard to precisely define why it's great - it has a certain consistency of form and content that makes the Zep seem trite.

I don't know, I kind of feel like it's a little bit taking the piss in VU's case. There's not really a hook or anything other than "It was alright", which is repeated in a kind of vapid and detached way by the backing vocals. It's also kind of funny because there is this 5-year-old going "Nothing's happening at all!" and you are like, wtf, you are 5 years old, you haven't even gone to school yet. Maybe you can start complaining once you start dressing yourself.

The whole thing just feels to me put-upon and maybe not entirely mocking 'the saving power of rock n roll' but at least sort of seeing it as a bit ridiculous.

but had it really been that long since the book of love?

listening to the vu one now i was kinda underrating the sweetness of it - been listening to a lot of old '60s top 40 lately, which makes it easier to appreciate what it was like for 'rock & roll' to be a 'new york station' novelty. But once you've had your nice childhood nostalgia moment, it hangs around a bit longer than actual 'rock & roll' used to (it's almost five minutes!) and you have to deal with Lou's attempts to sell FINE FINEs and OOHHH BABYs. Which obviously Plant was better.

Are the VU lyrics meant to be something other than cute and funny? I mean, we're not actually supposed to believe that a five-year-old was saved from an existential crisis, right?

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, September 17, 2013 12:47 PM (19 minutes ago)

Not sure if you're being intentionally dense, but Jenny is not 5 years old.

It's been a long time since "Oops I did it again"

I mean, she's recounting memories of when she was 5 years old... and that in retrospect, that moment in time saved her life.

Jenny said when she was just bout five years old
You know my parents are gonna be the death of us all
Two TV sets and two Cadillac cars -
Well you know it ain't gonna help me at all
Not just a little tiny bit
Then one fine mornin' she turns on a New York station
She doesn't believe what she hears at all
Ooh, She started dancin' to that fine fine music
You know her life is saved by rock 'n' roll,

So when was she saying "my parents are gonna be the death of us all etc"?

It's been a long time since "beautiful day"

Like, I always interpreted as being intentionally humorous in the idea that a five-year-old could have these thoughts, although she's probably recollecting her five-year-old crisis as an adult.

xpost

At least she didn't dance herself right out the womb.

Ooh, let me get back, let me get back, let me get back
To "Hemmorhage (In My Hands)"

I don't know, I kind of feel like it's a little bit taking the piss in VU's case. There's not really a hook or anything other than "It was alright", which is repeated in a kind of vapid and detached way by the backing vocals. It's also kind of funny because there is this 5-year-old going "Nothing's happening at all!" and you are like, wtf, you are 5 years old, you haven't even gone to school yet. Maybe you can start complaining once you start dressing yourself.

The whole thing just feels to me put-upon and maybe not entirely mocking 'the saving power of rock n roll' but at least sort of seeing it as a bit ridiculous.

I think this gets at why I don't really care for it that much. The Zep song is celebrating the simple pleasures of early rock and roll and actually sounds like a celebration, in a simple pleasurable sort of way (on one of their otherwise more ambitious and proggy albums up to that point). The VU song doesn't really rock enough to do that but also doesn't really take the piss out of it with Zappa-like wit either. The lyrics are cute but I don't find them that much more than that. It actually just feels a little half-assed to me.

lol @ 5yo literalists itt

Velvets...those car commercials ruined the Led Zeppelin song for me

Cadillacs...those gatorade commercials ruined rock and roll for me

sund4r it's not a ROCK song it's a "rock & roll" song from a guy in 1970 talking about childhood, do the math

the sequel to this poll should be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9-026ZCKR8

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p1TrF-pVwQ

It actually just feels a little half-assed to me.

Plant is a really talented singer, Reed would never make it through an American Idol elimination round (I can imagine Randy's inevitable though affectionate "a little pitchy, dog" comment) - but that's the whole point! Rock is no respecter of persons! We can all be saved!

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9uZvrsAoyE

GNRSlashLover votes for Zep though

Velvets...those car commercials ruined the Led Zeppelin song for me
but what about
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUYqNOFffMs

I would listen to a Lou Reed-assembled box set of doowop

saying the VU song doesn't "rock" enough to celebrate the 'rock & roll' jenny would be nostalgic for is insane

it is funny how both these songs (and many others of the era) pine for the long ago good times of... less than a decade ago

I can remember being five years old, and having dull 'children's music' as 'all there is'.

You didn't have much pop music on the radio in the UK in 1966, It did feel like the 'olden days' in a lot of ways.

da croupier otm.

another connecting point for these songs - both were recorded for atlantic

you have to deal with Lou's attempts to sell FINE FINEs and OOHHH BABYs. Which obviously Plant was better.
― da croupier, Tuesday, September 17, 2013 3:12 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

these 'attempts' are the best part of the song, geez

framptony guitar break is my fave part

Velvets...those car commercials ruined the Led Zeppelin song for me
― Iago Galdston, Tuesday, September 17, 2013 4:27 PM (36 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Cadillacs...those gatorade commercials ruined rock and roll for me
― Euler, Tuesday, September 17, 2013 4:29 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Okayyyy, then--how about "overexposed"? [eye roll]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0isUxJaA0G4

you really have a thing for this song

and eighties sax solos?

another good lou zeppelin connection
http://www.thesoundtracktoyourlife.co.uk/image.php?productid=5259

"Separate Lives" - Phil Collins & Marilyn Martin
"Prove Me Wrong" - David Pack
"Far Post" - Robert Plant
"People on a String" - Roberta Flack
"This Is Your Day" - Nile Rodgers & Sandy Stewart
"Snake Charmer" - John Hiatt
"The Other Side of the World" - Chaka Khan
"My Love Is Chemical" - Lou Reed
"Tapdance" - David Foster
"People Have Got to Move" - Jenny Burton

both lou and jimmy page have performed with metallica

this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tuAmC-uGS8

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgZ_HFJIGQw

saying the VU song doesn't "rock" enough to celebrate the 'rock & roll' jenny would be nostalgic for is insane

I guess I'm just not that moved by the music. It just doesn't convincingly suggest much basic pop joy to me, doesn't make me want to start dancing or humming. The Velvets' dry deadpan aesthetic worked really well for me on songs about inner-city drug deals or S&M, less so on something like this.

Yeah most Chuck Berry or even Buddy Holly tunes rock way more than this song called "Rock and Roll".

would you even hear a "dry deadpan aesthetic" on the song if it wasn't credited to the velvets?

i've always heard the VU song as basically sincere. i don't think lou's trying to make fun of the sentiment.

it's definitely tame compared to Zep (while I enjoy Loaded it's pretty blatantly an attempt at sell-out bubblegum from an exasperated singer-songwriter - who thankfully had some experience making the stuff at Pickwick - iirc lou doesn't even consider it a vu album since Tucker isn't on it) but suggesting it lacks "basic pop joy" just feels nuts

are you basing this on a years-old memory of hearing it and being nonplussed?

There's not really a hook or anything other than "It was alright", which is repeated in a kind of vapid and detached way by the backing vocals.

This is pretty close to how I hear it, yeah. I'll give you that it's less deadpan than "I'm Waiting for the Man". Maybe Lou Reed just always sounds dry and deadpan to me, even when he's trying to rock out?

Why do you think that the VU failed to become a huge pop success, da croupier?

xpost I'm listening to it right now and listened a couple other times today because of this thread.

Why do you think that the VU failed to become a huge pop success, da croupier?

dude i've heard the song on classic rock radio, which is pretty fucking impressive for a song that had zero promotion when it came out

Yeah most Chuck Berry or even Buddy Holly tunes rock way more than this song called "Rock and Roll".

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 17 September 2013 22:16 (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

What about that song called "Rock and Roll" by Status Quo then?

OK, if you hear the VU song as a monster pop earworm that honours the spirit of Buddy Holly (or even old doo-wop), we'll just have to agree to disagree about this.

xpost

I'm not a fan of Loaded -- the attempts at pop songs still sound undersketched to me -- but at a wedding Sunday it was an unexpected treat. It's impossible to dance to though, which dilutes a song about the healing power of rock

I don't know at what point the debate started here over the Velvet Underground's sincerity (or not) in their song, but I've always heard it as one of the two or three most beautiful, most worshipful, most heartfelt tributes to the redemptive powers of radio/rock & roll ever (sorry for all the cliches--too lazy to find better words). For me, "Roadrunner" is its only competition on that count.

it's as sincere as Lou gets (altho Coney Island Baby beats it imho)

it's not even about my taste. you're saying "well if this song is catchy pop, why wasn't it a big hit" about a song that wasn't released until after the singer had quit the band, was barely promoted but was covered a year later by Mitch Ryder, then released as a single by the Runaways, and now gets played as if it WAS a hit. and it's not because everyone likes droll detachment.

I don't think I've personally ever heard any VU on commercial radio (and am still a little sceptical that "Rock and Roll" gets played like it was a hit in any major radio market) but yeah, you probably got me about circumstances surrounding the song that could have kept it from being a hit.

I dunno about it being on rock radio (which I never listen to) but it certainly was covered a shitload

clemenza otm (though I'd substitute the Who's "Long Live Rock" for "Roadrunner")

I used to hear it pretty regularly on "classic rock" stations, maybe once every few months, and always preceded by, "Uh-oh, here's a REEEALLLY deep cut from Lou Reed and his old band the Velvet Underground!"

sund4r, you also gotta remember that when lou became a big FM rocker in the '70s, "Sweet Jane" and "Rock & Roll" were two of the velvets songs he brought with him, so over time as the velvets accrued weight classic rock radio was fine with playing the originals.

i've heard the rock n roll animal versions of rock n roll and sweet jane a lot on classic rock radio, not so much the loaded versions.

i'm not saying it's up there with "stairway," but it's a dumb song to put the "if it was any good, people would have liked it" tack on

Fwiw, the playlist and "top hits" list of 95.5 KLOS, LA's classic rock station, seem pretty close to what I'm used to and don't reveal any VU songs today.

xpost

well that's that, i'm a liar

I mean, whatever, it's all good; there are lots of things that are popular that I'm not particularly moved by. I was just trying to say how I hear it, I guess. I'll give you this point:

it's a dumb song to put the "if it was any good, people would have liked it" tack on

Zeppelin's "Rock & Roll" was forever ruined for me by the anemic version that's on The Song Remains The Same. I kinda like VU's - it was one of the first songs I learned how to play on guitar. For me, anything that's self-referential "yay rock!" is a songwriting third rail - I hate them all... Zeppelin, VU (except for the droney guitar solo and whatever Sterling did), The Who, Huey Lewis (even worse because he starts naming off cities), The Kinks (more goddamn lists of cities), Spiritualized (I can't figure out if it's even about music).

Perhaps a new thread with songs about rock and roll as an annihilating force. Start with "Cities On Flame With Rock And Roll."

lol @ 5yo literalists itt

please present the case for how "when she was just five years old" works tho seriously - like, aside from "it's absurd to think that a five-year-old has these thoughts," does the lyric provide any indication what else he would mean? "Jenny said when she was just five years old," wink wink, obv not that's stupid -- it wouldn't be Lou's first dumb joke but it'd be one of the least coherent

I think it is a fairly dumb tongue-in-cheek joke, a reference to rock n roll's rep as being bubblegum pap for children and Lou defending it as such

here's a 5yo narrator who was REALLY hip, man, lol isn't that a riot

this is kind of the level of a lot of Lou's humor afaict

here's a 5yo narrator who was REALLY hip, man, lol isn't that a riot

That's basically how I was reading it, I think? What were the 'literalists' saying?

rock & blues have a long history of giving female song subjects ridiculously young ages, so let's give lou credit for making it about her rather than about fucking her

a year later, jenny was dating chuck berry

What were the 'literalists' saying?

I assume people were joking upthread when they were saying how no 5yo would really talk that way. Or that Lou (singing about himself) couldn't possibly have heard r'n'r in 1947 etc. thus the lolz, cuz THAT'S THE JOKE

I'm able to buy that but it's somehow dumber than the literalist reading

my whole life to date is basically just learning to unlike Lou Reed I think

should i warn joni, oedipus?

lol

help me I think I'm loling

rows and floes of angel hair and posts that get excelsior'd

his life was saved by rock and lol

Zeppelin is fine but did they ever do anything as good as the Lou Reed guest DJ spot on WPIX?

Lou at his most loveable

"I never said I was ept."

there is this 5-year-old going "Nothing's happening at all!" and you are like, wtf, you are 5 years old

Just to confuse matters, by the start of Side 2, Lou is now 7 going on 11 and his parents are recommneding a career in dance

For me, anything that's self-referential "yay rock!" is a songwriting third rail
Lol, otm

I don't know at what point the debate started here over the Velvet Underground's sincerity (or not) in their song, but I've always heard it as one of the two or three most beautiful, most worshipful, most heartfelt tributes to the redemptive powers of radio/rock & roll ever (sorry for all the cliches--too lazy to find better words). For me, "Roadrunner" is its only competition on that count.

Yes, nerds definitely write the best "yay rock!" rock songs

Lou has never deviated from the sentiments expressed in that song.

(He has deviated in other ways, lol etc obv)

"Jenny said when she was just five years old," wink wink, obv not that's stupid -- it wouldn't be Lou's first dumb joke but it'd be one of the least coherent

It's 1969, and she was born in the early Fifties, and now she's at The Factory telling Lou about the first time she heard rock and roll and discovered New York cool, back when she was a five-year-old boy.

Not unlike Paul Simon's "Late in the Evening", with its verses about moments when music shaped him as an infant and a kid.

Yes, nerds definitely write the best "yay rock!" rock songs

Another example, The Ramones' "Do You Remember Rock And Roll Radio?"

Jimmy Page is a nerd!

He's basically a brony!

of course rock n' roll is sincere.

lou loves 50s rock n' roll. on that radio broadcast where he hijacks the station he's talking about all these old doo wop songs and stuff and bonding with the callers over "real rock n' roll".

Reminds me as a revelation I had as a kid in the late 70s when my brother explained that "Old Time Rock 'n' Roll" meant, like, Chuck Berry and not Steve Miller.

i literally can't believe people thought otherwise. probably like the only thing lou would never talk shit about is like jazz or leiber and stoller.

i think lou has a lot of really sincere songs. like songs for drella and junior dad and, i dunno, shitloads of them.

I don't know at what point the debate started here over the Velvet Underground's sincerity (or not) in their song, but I've always heard it as one of the two or three most beautiful, most worshipful, most heartfelt tributes to the redemptive powers of radio/rock & roll ever (sorry for all the cliches--too lazy to find better words). For me, "Roadrunner" is its only competition on that count.

Tend to agree with this

I also agree! The VU song I love in multiple incarnations - the alternate versions on Fully Loaded & Another View and the live version on 1969 have nifty jangly electric rhythm guitar instead of the acoustic rhythm guitar like the version on Loaded. I have always been a fan of Lou using "all right" to represent some sort of zen state (a recurring motif, cf. "What Goes On," "Beginning to See the Light," "I Can't Stand It," "Foggy Notion," "It's All Right [The Way That You Live]"). I like the dig at the suburban American 2-car/2-TV dream being "the death of us all" - substitute your own version (2 kids and an SUV? no thanks). I'm not sure why people want to take the whole thing literally, but I was a precocious fan of rock and roll as a toddler - it's not that far-fetched an idea - and growing up in a nowhere hick town, I always felt my life was saved by rock and roll. The song might not be the rockingist, but it still gives me a rush of excitement.

On the other hand, I am sick to death of LZ's RNR. I wouldn't make an effort to turn it off or skip it, but I would never choose to play it specifically. It's no "Four Sticks."

It's not that hard to believe that a child could enjoy rock and roll. It's harder to imagine that a kindergarten-age child could have this thought, though:

the suburban American 2-car/2-TV dream being "the death of us all"

and, as I say, although I'm not the biggest fan of the song, I always that was the point, to make that joke.

It's a reference to 'Nature Boy'

ric flair didn't debut until '72

about is like jazz or leiber and stoller.
Yup. Doesn't he do the voiceover/narration in the recent Doc Pomus movie?

I was trying to find that scene in The Jerk where he hears that easy listening jazz on the radio for the first time and it changes his life but it's not on youtube. Such a great scene!

love both, voted velvets. posting a mashup in 2013 is probably worth a flag post but always loved this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e48mSas773E

VU

first version of 'rock and roll' i heard, local college radio played this to death along w/ their 'sympathy' cover and obv 'jane says' from that same album.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0EBEYq0x7o

1000 votes for zep

Christina Aguilera was saved by "Rock and Roll"--that's probably as much as I'll ever like her.

Have to go with the VU which is one of those songs that always sneaks up on me.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Lol I spent five mins looking for the VU Scooby Doo ep only to remember it was in the other Velvets poll thread

I mean Led Zeppelin wrote song great songs and this is one of them but I absolutely must throw my hat into the VU's ring in this instance, also, how did no one page me to this. ;_;

also I never thought about this sounding like belle & sebastian since I heard this first but dip otm (though I love it)

also, how did no one page me to this. ;_;
Thought about it but couldn't find the exact right place to do so in this delicately argued thread. OK, let's start over: Finefinemusic to thread!

Thank you, present! :)

VU Scooby Doo ep? What?

velvets no question

oh for fuck's sake people, all this songwriting crit stuff. Lou probably knew that there were one-syllable numbers larger than 5. 9, for example. similar vowel sounds. would you all have bitched about 9? he picked 5. so he had something in mind. maybe, just maybe, a little hyperbole? deal with it. in any case, the Loaded version is absolutely one of Lou's best vocals.

whereas Led Zep, Led Zep has no relationship to "doing the stroll"--they give less of a shit about early Rock & Roll than any band I can think of. "been a long time since I stole a lick" would have at least been honest, and they could've rhymed it with "dick."

clemenza OTM on this one.

they give less of a shit about early Rock & Roll than any band I can think of.

that doesn't sound right at all thinking about things like the Honeydrippers and whatnot. Besides, Jimmy Page's first ever TV appearance was playing in a skiffle band in 1957 or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFNKGccDJx4

i don't know if you're kidding or what but Zep was hugely into early rock n roll

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMGSXIjU2Js

Yeah, it'd be pretty much impossible for Jimmy Page to have become a session player, much less joined the Yardbirds, if he didn't revere Berry, Little Richard, Bo Diddley, et al.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufzRV3xspYA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHNL5_2LspE

tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq0b1yufOYM

not to mention
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYr7I4gOSXk

Antonioni's first choice was the Who, who turned him down. Second choice was the Velvets, who weren't able to travel to the UK at the time.

xp

Adam Bruneau search out the VU solo albums poll.

Just want to add:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvRxXvitACk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J54NapjjbZY

(Wow @ Plant's range in the second clip!)

Also, if you want to talk about stolen licks, there's no better example than "There She Goes Again".

Lol @ zep "not giving a shit" about early rock. The velvets weren't the ones covering eddie cochran

Hey, hey people, sisters, brothers and sisters, brothers and sisters, come-on now!
That means everybody just cool out! Percy and Lou are both long-standing members of the Doc Pomus appreciation society. Will you cool out everybody?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5XJX8sjYDE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oOG3vUkKUM

Jenny's youthful cynicism is explained in the song. She's dancing "despite all the amputations". A kid who has lost a couple of limbs (or more!) might be a little more world-weary than your average 5-year-old.

doo-wop lou
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqEoTN4BGPQ

Couldn't decide before; now I'm voting Zep just for Swag Heathen

Swag Heathen wins idiotic claim of the day, no doubt

surely the "amputations" are DJs cutting off the end of songs?

Voted VU, but feel like Swag Heathen ( theStalePrince ) has given a black eye to the cause of "fine, fine music" not to mention Finefinemusic.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Wow, lots o' votes

NOT my favorite VU song. Lyrically it's dated and to me it doesn't "rock".

what does "dated" mean here?

about a young person listening to and enjoying rock music on the radio - tbf kinda dated

also voted velvets but this margin is a disgrace

i don't really care how much anybody subscribes to the classic rock canon, but ilm's undying fealty to the proto-alternative canon is worse imo

Man.

Brothers and sisters, come on now. That means everybody- just cool out.

i don't really care how much anybody subscribes to the classic rock canon, but ilm's undying fealty to the proto-alternative canon is worse imo

oh I dunno. This is ILM. If Miley covered Zep's "R&R" then you'd complain about ILM's undying fealty to poptimism.

Alfred otm

that comparison makes no sense even as a hypothetical but sure yeah however the wind blows i can complain about how ilm votes about anything

that comparison makes no sense even as a hypothetical

lol otm

I wish I could cheat like the old days. I'd a voted for both.

I mean, we've got a rolling Eagles thread that's been on the top half of the page for a month. I don't think there's a proto-alternative bias in 2013. There is an aero-led bias towards literalism in metaphors, though, which I'm not down with because, hey, it's the Velvet Underground, shut up.

What is the metaphor in the VU's "Rock and Roll"??

life saved by rock and roll despite all the amputations

Voted VU, but feel like Swag Heathen ( theStalePrince ) has given a black eye to the cause of "fine, fine music" not to mention Finefinemusic.

about a young person listening to and enjoying rock music on the radio - tbf kinda dated

so all songs about the radio are now officially dated? and are they more dated than songs that refer to doing "the stroll"?

all songs about rocking must be updated to be about twerking or risk irrelevance

also they should probably be remixed with a kendrick lamar verse, just to be safe.

Having [VU] place where it did essentially destroys all credibility of this message board.

Giving place to gross, cheesy, formulaic shit is detrimental to the legitimacy of the entire list.

This particular placement makes me want to call shenanigans. Maybe some people voted for it higher than they truly rate it in order to make a point.

The Led Zeppelin song is very sad. I think it is about the end of a marriage. They don't have sex anymore.

Yeah, Zep's song is emphatically not about rock n' roll music, but about fucking. Or the lack thereof.

i remember the first time i heard vu rockn'roll, i was in hs and had only heard the first album which i knew was cool but didn't fully get, heard this and just tripped so hard for like a week. led zep i have no memory of hearing for the first time, just rocked my ass since forever basically

limp, non-threatening, far more interested in talking than fucking

board description blah blah blah

lol mook

btw, is The Boys song "I don't care" actually about Led Zep's "Rock And Roll" ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RyuZT_Oj-k

Singing about rock n roll > actually rocking the fuck out, I guess

Lonesome Cowboy Bill rocks more than the VU's "Rock n Roll".

what the shit is this

do over

^ did not vote

Deserved win for the New Yorkers here

I voted early for Zep, but man, some of the literal-ass VU interpretations made me wish I had voted for the Velvets, purely out of spite.

wau @ no. of voters and margin of victory

just ridiculous

Lot of amputations, apparently.

sorry, guys, I was drunk....my Yardbirds album won't speak to me today.....mea maxima culpa....

but I do still buy a version of my own point--maybe if I'd made it, uh, differently?

Zeppelin was a ruthless unsentimental non-nostalgic machine of a band: they don't give a fuck. Lou did/does.
in many contexts this juxtaposition means a win for Led Z--but with these two particular songs, I called it the other way around.

hmmmm--live 1969 version of "Ocean" vs "When the Levee Breaks"?

Can't see reading anything into these results when I bet that at least three-quarters of the people who voted love both songs. Not either/or, just degrees of brilliance. (Also imagine LZ get hurt by the fact that their "Rock and Roll" is simply far more ubiquitous.)

http://www.electricroulette.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/socks.jpg

The Led Zeppelin song is very sad. I think it is about the end of a marriage.

This seems really obvious now. My 'celebration' comment upthread seems kind of dumb, except that I think it's doing that at the same time.

5 years old, that's when I was a Viking!

lol

They were wild like the USA
A mystery band in a New York way
Rock and roll, but not like the rest
And to me, America at it's best
How in the world were they making that sound?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTT-wj69ObE

This thread got me thinking about Loaded and how Rock and Roll is the only truly successful piece of music on it. Sweet Jane, also a great song, is much inferior to the Live 1969 version. I used to like New Age, but long since concluded that its Sunset Boulevard tale is something Bowie could have done far more justice to. Much of it is just embarrassing. Lonesome Cowboy Bill?
Even without Cale, its about as far away from the cold medieval sound of the debut as you could possibly get. Rock and Roll is probably Lou’s finest vocal. The cynical urban drawl for once shows some emotion; perhaps this is the only topic it can get excited about. “She didn’t believe what she heard at all.” When the music stops and it just comes back with I IV I IV, it’s a glorious moment. But as to the fine fine music that Jeannie was dancing to, well it probably sounded more like Rock and Roll by Led Zep.

i like the warm and open sound of 'loaded' -- most days i'd rather hear it than the 'cold medieval sound of the debut' tbh.

Was thinking about polling Loaded vs. the MC5's High Time: two swan songs, same label, same producer, almost the same year.

(xxpost) Even though I'd agree that Loaded is not as consistently great as the first three--for me, not even close--I do think it has a third masterpiece to go along with the two obvious ones: "Oh! Sweet Nuthin'."

Yeah, that one's good. Don't know if it's a masterpiece, but I also quite like "Head Held High".

i love loaded. "head held high," "train coming round the bend," "cool it down" - it's still great bubblegum!

i mean, shit reed just made three groundbreaking albums, the kind where individual songs would become the blueprint for whole subgenres. Let him make an album of sugar sugars for Clive Davis!

Got excited when the Velvets' "Rock & Roll" played twice within 15 minutes in the coffee shop I'm sitting in.

Me: "Who's the Velvet Underground fan?"

(blank look from behind the counter) "It's a playlist."

Classic

Gotten used to this by now. Often it is actually the owner’s taste that is responsible for that playlist but they might be at another location on any given day so difficult to ask them.

Lou Reed: "Can you imagine working for a fucking year, and you end up on some coffee-shop playlist?"

lol @ 5yo literalists itt

I know, right?

Rolling (Thunder) Bob Dylan's 115th Dream laugh at Lou Reed joke.

One of the owner's of place I go to is a big Replacements fan. The day Dead Man's Pop came out I walked into the place and on cue "Talent Show" came on. The co-owner has never made it clear to me whether he did that on purpose or it was an accident. Probably an accident but hey, print the legend.

Leaving aside the low blow from DJP about VU's "Rock and Roll" sounding like Belle & Sebastian, what actually does sound like it?

"Shakin' Street" from MC5 is in a similar ballpark, I suppose.

Could hear "Subterranean Homesick Blues" in the background where I ate dinner tonight, but resisted the urge to ask "Who's the Bringing It All Back Home fan?" (least of all when played in tandem with "Dancing with Myself").

Lol

I knew who would win this before I opened the thread, but the actual margin of victory is astonishing.

Results are wrong

Well, yeah.

*stands up at the bar*
“Who’s the LCD soundsystem 45’ 33” fan?”

Pours one out for the "4AD" coffee bar in OC long ago. The place had a perfectly anonymous suburban hipster coffee bar name, but it was a lot easier to call it 4AD because that's what was playing there, all the time. I heard that Heidi Berry s-t album there about a zillion times.

Got excited when the Velvets' "Rock & Roll" played twice within 15 minutes in the coffee shop I'm sitting in.

Me: "Who's the Velvet Underground fan?"

(blank look from behind the counter) "It's a playlist."

Hahaha