TS: prog vs. krautrock

At last! A chance to vote for an arbitrary dichotomy!

You have to choose one genre to listen to and ignore the other
for the rest of your life

Just wondering what definition of krautrock is being made to isolate one from the other. One might be tempted to see krautrock as part of the acceptable face of prog alongside several other bands.
Is it the idea that krautrock draws more from a minimalist than maximalist influence and is based more in then contemporary classical/experimental musics tahn the 19th century classical that symphonic prog was taking from in its attempt to heighten rock in a pretentious way?

The good bits of krautrock seem to have a similar sense of experimentation as the best parts of the San Francisco scene from a couple of years earlier. Mixing in a melange of influences instead of trying to 'heighten' rock by hitching it to something as specific as classical music. But I don't think they were alone in that melange there are other musics from the same period taht had the same open embrace of other influences. It has been said that bits of kraut have a similar sloppiness in playing to that SF scene stuff too. I know taht the Grateful Dead played a number of dates in Germany on the Europe 72 tour, I wonder how many musicians linked to the krautrock scene, if there was such a thing, were in the audience.
BUt I think I need to gather my thoughts better about this and several other things.

Also how are you defining prog? There are quite a few records that fit that rubrick or that of its predecessor progressive underground taht don't fit the general stereotype of anal retentive attempts to 'heighten' rock to a level most closely linked with the bourgeois university student trenchcoat brigade.

Lets stay in the classical , shallow meaning of the genres:
Krout-experimental rock bands from 70's germany:can, faust, amon duul etc..
Prog:the successful bands from the 70's:crimson, genesis, yes etc..

gotta say prog because if nothing else there are still some amazing prog groups like Cardiacs, Echolyn, and Porcupine Tree out there - where are the great modern Kraut bands?

prog, because kraut is prog

Ingenious

Just trying to solve the contradiction within myself:
Why do I hate classic prog and love krautrock?

Kraut, because fuck prog

tago mago and close to the edge go the same places. for some the ends justify the means

perhaps better go with the generally accepted definitions here even if you don't accept them yourself

TS: rap vs. hip hop

Kraut, because fuck prog

So fucking fed up hearing about prog on ILM, so KRAUT ALL THE WAY!!!!!

In the spirit of casting an informed vote, I just tried to listen to a Yes album and well nosir.

try playing VdGG next to Can and you'll know which way to vote

country vs. honky-tonk
folk vs. bluegrass
jazz vs. bebop
blues vs. delta blues

So fucking fed up hearing about prog on ILM, so KRAUT ALL THE WAY!!!!!

To be fair, most people still seem to have the idea that prog = the worst excesses of ELP and Rick Wakeman, that's if they have an opinion at all. The Wire magazine, I'm looking at you. At least on ILM you can talk about Gryphon or PFM or whoever without necessarily being mocked on principle.

Are there any really bad krautrock bands? Not counting German bands of the 1970s who get called kraut but aren't really.

honky-tonk
folk
jazz
delta blues
prog

Once upon a time there were two brothers.
The older one was called prog. The younger was kraut.
Kraut took the disadvantages of prog and made them advanteges.
The older one was boring and repetetive. The young one was habdsome enthusiastic and unexpected.
The older one made lots of money. The younger was a starving artist.
Both of them will die but the younger one will die later happier and charmingly creative still.
The older one will die frustrated, never acceptibg his limitations, somewhat pathetic and a annoying.

I hate prog. And I heard some obscure prog too.

1977 was 36 years ago. prog is old-fashioned. punk rules

Lol

i am damo suzuki. say a prayer for the hip priest

Key artists associated with the tag include Can, Amon Düül II, Ash Ra Tempel, Faust, Popol Vuh, Cluster, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Neu!, and Kraftwerk

a pretty unfuckwithable bunch except for I've never got Can

can is one of my favorite prog bands

At least on ILM you can talk about Gryphon or PFM or whoever without necessarily being mocked on principle.

more likely you'd get completely ignored :(

country vs. honky-tonk
folk vs. bluegrass
jazz vs. bebop
blues vs. delta blues― marcos, Friday, September 2

Country
Folk
jazz
blues

after bowie, eno is my favorite british solo prog artist. there's an icy minimalism to his pre-ambient headfucks that's better for stoned night listening than lots of sunnier prog bands, especially the american ones, like kansas. i've never fallen out of love with his kraut "rock" with cluster, either

yeah I get that you don't like taxonomy. but there are some bands which are generally accepted as prog and some other bands which are generally accepted as kraut. the question is which set of bands do you prefer. it's a good question. i'm going prog.

try playing VdGG next to Can and you'll know which way to vote

that's exactly how you'd make this a difficult decision!

If itt "krautrock" includes kosmische, then I prob vote kraut. BUT fripp-wetton-bruford KC is some of my favorite music ever and i love Art Bears more than only 3 or 4 German albums. But yeah as a collective endeavor....

Harmonia Deluxe vs Winter Songs

TS: rap vs. hip hop

― reggie (qualmsley), Friday, 20 September 2013 14:43 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

voted 'flag post'

that's weird

perhaps better go with the generally accepted definitions here even if you don't accept them yourself

What are the generally accepted definitions? Fwiw, AMG and Wikipedia both describe krautrock as a subgenre of progressive rock. (Grove seems to make a distinction.) I'll check some pop history textbooks when I pick them up this weekend but I'm not convinced that there are cut-and-dry generally accepted definitions that distinguish these things.

Anyway, if you're comparing British symphonic prog to krautrock, the latter is clearly more repetitive.

... which is obv. a good thing.

Are there any really bad krautrock bands?

The bands I like I call kraturock, the ones i dont' I call prog or jazz rock.... actually I don't call anything krautrock, I prefer the term 'rock music'

i love Art Bears more than only 3 or 4 German albums.

I'm getting around this by pretending that if Kraut is separate to prog, so is RIO.

Wasn't necessarily saying it's bad but it seemed weird for nostormo to say that 'prog' was the repetitive one.

Doesn't "kraut" mean "cabbage" in German? Are German people really OK with this term?

xpost And yeah, that was going to be my next issue: if we're distinguishing between 'prog' and 'krautrock', do we also have to distinguish RIO, Canterbury, Zeuhl, ...?

laaaaaaaaa la la la laaaaaaaaaaaa

it seemed weird for nostormo to say that 'prog' was the repetitive one

Right, yeah, plenty of Krautrock artists made money too while we're at it, not as much as ELP but more than Henry Cow

were the monks brit beat or kraut rock?

Well they weren't Brits or Krauts

minnesotans, most of them, right?

Brat rock

the wurst that is

but wait, x-post to self, eddie shaw was from nevada

Eddie Shaw went on to play in a progressive rock band called Copperhead in the 1970s and later become a fiction writer; he also wrote their autobiography Black Monk Time. Shaw's fictional work is based on his experiences growing up in Nevada and is published under his full name, Thomas Edward Shaw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_monks

never heard copperhead. i'm curious!

those krautrock brats are the wurst, am i right

Was supposed to be a minnesota joek ;_;

when i think brats i think wisco

I know, me too-- I couldn't think of a one syllable MN cliche food that ended in t.

Yeah mt repetetive remark isn't accurate

TS: Country vs. Western

WAs thinking that there are a lot of other bands internationally from the same time that were also putting out musics that didn't have the pitfalls of the stereotypical idea of prog as inherently anal-retentive.
I was listening to the new Esoteric compilation of Burnin' Red Ivanhoe as i was typing yesterday so will start with mention of the Danish scene, also good stuff coming from Holland, France, Switzerland, Greece, Turkey, Italy and Australia. & not all UK is up itself to great degree.

What does "inherently anal-retentive" mean and how does a dude sticking knives in his keyboard fit into it?

he didn't shit on it?

which is the best onomatopoeic representation of a fart.

feel like a lot of the knocks on prog are projection, no offense

feel like a lot of the knocks on prog are the same boring untruths coined by shitty 70s journalists and repeated thoughtlessly by wannabe punkers ever since

based more in then contemporary classical/experimental musics tahn the 19th century classical that symphonic prog was taking from in its attempt to heighten rock in a pretentious way

I know you were questioning this idea but I hear people say this sometimes. Tbh, when I think of rock that takes from 19th century art music, I think more of e.g. Beatles and Beach Boys ballads. "Blackbird" is not at all that different from Schubert, harmonically. Most prog, even the bands nostormo mentions, seems way more 20th century to me, despite things like "Cans and Brahms". Much of it doesn't seem very rooted in functional harmony. (Actually, if anything, Yes probably came closer to that on their more pop Beatlesque moments. The key changes in "Close to the Edge" sure don't make any sense in terms of common practice harmony.) KC were using whole-tone and octatonic scales on Red. ELP played Mussorgsky but also did Bartok and Ginastera. Rush used the Locrian mode on "YYZ". Nearly all symphonic prog features asymmetrical metres and jarring changes in metre and tempo. These are not things I would typically associate with Romantic music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_practice_period#Rhythm). Most symphonic bands had a strong interest in timbral experimentation, whether through new synth technology or extended techniques, e.g. Ian Anderson's multiphonics on the flute.

xposts

And, actually, when prog guys did quote CPP music, they probably quoted Baroque music as much as they quoted Romantic music.

sund4r, he used the word 'pretentious' to describe prog. instant flag post. don't reply.

based more in then contemporary classical/experimental musics tahn the 19th century classical that symphonic prog was taking from in its attempt to heighten rock in a pretentious way
I know you were questioning this idea but I hear people say this sometimes. Tbh, when I think of rock that takes from 19th century art music, I think more of e.g. Beatles and Beach Boys ballads. "Blackbird" is not at all that different from Schubert, harmonically. Most prog, even the bands nostormo mentions, seems way more 20th century to me, despite things like "Cans and Brahms". Much of it doesn't seem very rooted in functional harmony. (Actually, if anything, Yes probably came closer to that on their more pop Beatlesque moments. The key changes in "Close to the Edge" sure don't make any sense in terms of common practice harmony.) KC were using whole-tone and octatonic scales on Red. ELP played Mussorgsky but also did Bartok and Ginastera. Rush used the Locrian mode on "YYZ". Nearly all symphonic prog features asymmetrical metres and jarring changes in metre and tempo. These are not things I would typically associate with Romantic music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_practice_period#Rhythm). Most symphonic bands had a strong interest in timbral experimentation, whether through new synth technology or extended techniques, e.g. Ian Anderson's multiphonics on the flute.

xposts

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, September 21, 2013 2:04 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Thanks for that, found it pretty interesting and worth further investigation. Unlike other comments that appeared immediately afterwards.

you just had to slip that barb in didn't you. pathetic

obviously it was a good sund4r post but if a man can't radge at the pretentious prog strawman what can he do

prog is uncool. i'm going to listen to battles

when someone commits a speaking error in the heat of the moment, document it here

o Tom, and to think I've shared a pint with the man more than twice

"the love song of j. alfred progrock" is my favorite modernist poem!

Boringness of kosmiche cancels out the pretentiousness of prog.

ooh yeah you nailed them good

ime krautrock tends to be more repetitive, groovy, songs based on one jam or riff, whreas prog is into having a bunch of different parts, played super tight, key changes. so i guess it actually seems like a reas comparison. def prefer krautrock right now but i haven't really gotten fully into prog yet

prog is uncool. i'm going to listen to battles

Battles sound a LOT like Gentle Giant to me. Not trying to be a smartass.

me too. they're both great bands. also, somewhat related, merriweather post pavilion sounds a LOT like latterday yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Gl6kI1_Xw

sometimes i think all the prog-bashing is just a trick "the industry" plays on unsuspecting music snobs to keep prog fresh for musical plunder

Battles sound a LOT like Gentle Giant to me. Not trying to be a smartass.― i believe we can c.h.u.d. all night (Jon Lewis)

WTF?

They do! When I got the Battles album literally the first thing that occurred to me was gentle giant + KC discipline

Battles are prog as fuck which i think was qualms's joke in the first place

sing this hook, oh eh oh!

imo qualmsley isn't doing enough to destroy this thread. try harder dude

rick wakeman was a spider from mars and played on sabbath's "sabbra cadabra"

ts: the horrors vs secret machines

ts: britney vs autechre

^^^ha GOT YOU ALL they're nothing like each other so it's a valid ts!!! or is it!!

no wait they're actually identical

ts: Ys vs ZS

i love the first secret machines album, especially the epic opening song, "first wave intact". some of the best motorik beats in years too on "nowhere again"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1rvmJOSnKE
makes me nostalgic for stereolab

that's the avant-prog band ZS, not the ILX poster!!!!

oh yeah secret machines have done some excellent stuff. really strongly prefer them to school of seven bells, which makes ILM and I mortal enemies!!!

joanna newsom: prog or kraut? ts!

ts: ILM or a Kraut Joanna Newsom (n.b. prog or anything else Newsom NOT ALLOWED)

lost track of secret machines after that first album and never got much into school of seven bells. Zs live are a fierce force

back to secret machines, I really only like their opening or closing songs, but pretty much all of those are really good! their last self-titled album had a very good opening pair of songs actually and a superb closer! you should check it out! first wave intact is still their best song though! obviously!

ts: opening songs vs closing songs!!!

ts: fierce vs force

ts: no vs stormo

^^^it's NO btw

ts: joanna newsom vs. renaissance

ts: jouissance vs renee-anna newsom, joanna's unknown kraut-prog sister

joanna newsom's other unknown kraut-prog sister is sally oldfield

oh fuck we have to poll sally vs mike then

then poll off the winner against the winner of joanna newsom and a...hoover!!

hohoho she sounds so terrible when she sings! like a HOOVER!!

hoho!

this thread needs a banging krautrock beat

chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-

louis have you ever listened to la otracina?

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-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-a-chuk-a-CHAK-

oh hey someone asked a question. that BROKE THE FLOW. that made things PROG not kraut

tell me of la otracina, so that we can escape these mundane conjectures

no? ok. well we won. nostormo's gonna be pissed when he sees all this!!!

ts: chuk-a vs CHAK-a

this might interest you

http://www.holymountain.com/artists/la-otracina/

cool! might uh check them out on uh youtube before spending large amounts of money on unknown music. winced at 'metallica' but we all have our weaknesses eh right

^^^gosh I've probably angered my few remaining allies on ILM now!!!

obviously chuk-a >>> CHAK-a; you could have a beat comprising only the former (some of the tracks on Wire's 'Send' actually do iirc), but one of the latter would madden quite rapidly

they hit total fucked up "gates of delirium"/"soundchaser" moments. good stuff

la otracina write-up in fact reminding me of Danava, who have some cool retro-psych-prog moments, especially 'One Mind Gone Separate Ways', gonna find that and post it itt

oh well if THAT'S the case I'm in

totally like davana but la otracina 'get it' more imho. kinda like a harder more free-prog astra

http://soundcolourvibration.com/2012/03/23/astra-black-chord/

uh, danava, i mean

ah sweet

right it's 2am where I am, gonna check back here & listen to this stuff tomorrow. that's unless we're qualitatively comparing prog to kraut again, which would be so very ts!

i can't take sides between prog and kraut. it's like trying to pick between syd barrett and roger waters

ts: bill callahan vs. will oldham

slint vs ludacris

http://www.new-video.de/co/genug.jpg

gonna work out a palindromic ts then go to bed

is sigur ros prog rock, kraut rock, post-rock, or elf rock?

(nergfol) slint - nils (lofgren)

is squirrel bait the wylde flowers or post-rock?

M.O.P. - Om

ts: om vs. high on fire

bros vs orb

hey guys I got one

El-P vs ELP oh my GAWD hehe

deltron 3030 vs. 2066 and then

s'port your brother
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqyVJaOuF9g
get rid of the mourning, start with the habits of your mind

So this is where absinthe-J4gg3r happened? Hahahaha.

Something about this thread reminds me of the last Beak> album; can't quite put my finger on it...

"laughter loving" off starring rossi sounds exactly like the grateful dead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g4cSQcKtek

Agitation Free's 2nd lp sounds quite a bit like it comes from the same place as the Dead and other jazz based San francisco ballroom sound bands.

I found that Gaa's 1st lp Auf der Bahn zum Uranus sounded pretty West Coast US psychy through speakers and a lot more proggy through headphones.

Amon Duul II obviously have the Jefferson Airplane thing going on, but I'm not even sure what we're talking about on this thread anymore.

Daddy, take the banana! Tomorrow is Sunday!

50 foot hose is probably my favorite 60s san francisco prog band

I don't know if you ever realised this and it's gonna blow your mindand all but the sixth Grateful Dead album even has the word Can in the title.

the eleventh grateful dead album has an excellent prog epic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugRct9pNQYM

I know they did that triple album recorded in Europe but I'm not sure if the Grateful Dead were that big a deal in Europe, never meant anything in the UK for a start

Just checked, they had two Top 30 albums in the UK... but then so did Captain Beefheart, and his placed higher!

Dead always played p large venues when they toured the UK (their last UK gigs were at Wembley Arena), tho obv their record sales and radio play in the UK were negligible (first time I ever yeard the dead was when Peel played 'Ripple')

Well, yes, I don't remember ever hearing them being played or talked about

That Europe 72 tour had 8 U.k. dates on it which I would assume must signify something. Or they wouldn't have had several dates in the same venue would they? I don't think you could rely on the same audience coming back to that degree to make it worthwhile.

There were 4 German dates too.

Would have though that the band that pretty much represented the San Francisco scene which was internationally famous would be getting some recogniton. Obviously it was a pre-internet age and media representation was far from blanket coverage of them but I thought they were reasonably well known.
I know that Country Joe & The Fish's Electric Music For the Mind and Body was thought of as an essential part of any head's record collection in '67 & that is talking about the uk scene. Would have thought Anthem of The Sun had some similar level if recognition. & do remember reading UK people talking about loving the 1st s/t lp from hearing it being played at the time.

Thought they were being thought of as one of the main underground US bands so would be one that people would be wanting to go and see given the opportunity. So still wondering how many people from bands now thoughtof as krautrock would have been at those Europe '72 and earlier gigs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu2Z4IhLdIE

^ Grateful Dead on German TV, 1972

if UK peeps were going to see Barclay James Harvest then surely the Dead cd have sold out the odd gig

I know Elvis Costello saw them at the Bickershaw Festival date on the 72 tour

The Dead also played more gigs in the UK than any other country apart from the US, which again indicates to me a certain level of popularity/consumer demand

draws up provisional list of 2nd tier "Heavy"/"Progressive" bands that were touring regularly thru the 70s

most of them probly more fun than the Dead but i'm not pandering to this thread's hateful I Don't Love Music vibe

will run them as a looooong series of head to head polls instead

(pro tip: Wishbone Ash vs the Dead = Wishbone Ash ftw)

and so on and so forth, hi there Budgie, Man, Climax Blues Band

could make this game of musical Digimon go on for months! hurray!

Curved Air vs. Uriah Heep FIGHT!!!

Henry Cow vs Blodwyn Pig vs Atomic Rooster <- farm animal special

Henry Cow vs Blodwyn Pig vs Atomic Rooster <- farm animal special

― i'll be your mraz (NickB), Monday, September 23, 2013 2:56 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Love bits of all of those 3 bands
finaly got a live set by the Du Cann trio version of Atomic Rooster off Dime last week
& Lindsay cooper's death being talked about has me going back through the Henry Cow Road box, so far listened to disc 7 & 1/2 of the Trondheim set over the last week.

lots of stuff on this list that makes it hard to see sides

http://www.popmatters.com/feature/173119-aquarius-rotten-part-two/

Nice article! A few new names for me there and I can't say I've ever heard that Kraftwerk record either. Could've had Hairy Chapter in there actually, there's a good progressive hard rock band you'd probably find in the krautrock section.

that kraftwerk record's my favorite besides kraftwerk i and ralf & florian. it's really hard to pry prog and kraut rock apart

I am by no means a heavy metal fan but I prefer it to most of that proto-metal stuff from the late 60s/ early 70s tbh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYKLvYGqaC0

(("Battles sound a LOT like Gentle Giant to me. Not trying to be a smartass.― i believe we can c.h.u.d. all night (Jon Lewis)

WTF?

― nostormo, Saturday, 21 September 2013 19:39 (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink"))

I'm not sure if you are surprised or just joking but Battles have very clear elements of Yes and Gentle Giant. I know they claimed to be big fans of Yes, Rush and Return To Forever.
I think Mew and Field Music are some of the best newer bands to use these influences.

I also think that a lot of the criticisms at prog usually sound like cliches that have been passed on so long without first hand experience or opinions of people who made up their mind before they listened. I dont have a problem with people not caring for these bands, but the responses often sound a certain way, that it doesnt sound like a personal response to the music.
Younger people who never read music journalism from before the early 00s never have that old attitude and I think the internet has really made a lot of the prejudices go away, I'm glad I never really hear the old attitudes anymore, it pleases me that nobody cares about that old type of NME journlist used to say. There is a slight remainder of it because a lot of these people went on to be involved in BBC stuff and The Guardian but I dont think it has that much impact when compared with the internet music communities being so exploratory. I used to often see this sentence a lot in music magazines: "the (insert maligned genre) band that it is okay to like", I just found that loathsome and I'm glad I never see that anymore. I constantly found this sort of wariness of being seen as uncool in music magazines, but I rarely see anyone giving a fuck about that stuff anymore.

Also, people get into prog from films and games. If you like 70s-80s Italian horror films, you almost have to like prog.
Nobuo Uematsu is the most successful videogame musician, more responsible than anyone for putting game soundtracks in demand; along with YMO and Vangelis, his music is full of blatant prog. The boss fight tunes are the most proggy and are always used for excitement, clearly Wakeman and Emerson influenced stuff. These soundtracks are pretty much universally praised by game fans. I dont like the RPG games themselves but the soundtracks are classic.
The animated film Akira used a guy from a prog band called Geinoh Yamashiroguni.

Krautrock bands rarely embrace that term. Faust is the only band I've seen say they like the name, others were mostly bemused, annoyed or insulted by it.

I think the German band Eloy are the most stereotypical (in a bad way) prog band. But this is only based on hearing Ocean, I liked some of it.

I think Amon Duul very often sound like a british prog band more than the other Kraut bands. There was also the UK incarnation of that band with VdGG and Hawkwind members.

Rock In Opposition is getting increasingly hard to seperate from regular prog, the events and collaborations have lots of crossover with plain prog. Ruins have somehow become a part of RIO and they clearly take in everything under the prog umbrella.

I'm just going to make some lists of slightly unexpected people being prog fans ( although I dont think anyone should be surprised at by anything anyone likes unless they are ethically opposed to it, especially after Bonny Prince Billy being a huge R Kelly fan and Wayne Coyne being a James Blunt fan) and just general punk-prog crossover.

The Stranglers are an obvious crossover point.

The Subhumans were huge prog fans and one member said their Cradle To The Grave album was a punk/prog thing.

Even though they are a metal band (metal bands tend to embrace prog and punk, but I was surprised recently that Iron Maiden listed their influences as almost exclusively prog and Steve Harris actually hated punk) I think Voivod are a spectacular mix of prog and punk.
Witch (the Mascis version) are another one

Phil Collins said Rat Scabies (The Damned) was a Genesis fan.

Captain Sensible (The Damned) was in prog magazine talking about his favorite prog bands, but he didnt like Genesis or Yes. He was into stuff like Egg. Weirdly on his facebook I could swear he used "prog" as one of his defining genre labels, but the page has changed so you cant see descriptions anymore.

John Lydon liked loads of Krautrock, but also Hawkwind, Wishbone Ash and Magma. He liked Jethro Tull, an influence on songs like "This Is Religion".

Nick Cave liked Jethro Tull and praised them for writing disturbing lyrics a mainstream band would never write today. Also a King Crimson fan, got Robert Fripp on a Grinderman record. He said Fripp was really weird. I like the fact that he put the emphasis on Fripp being weird because Cave has probably met lots of weird people.

Stephen Thrower (Cyclobe, Coil, film journalist) wrote a great piece about Yes for Wire magazine, here is a slightly longer version of it on his blog...
http://7doorshotel.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/yesiphanies-stephen-thrower-mention-yes.html?zx=3a8032a05fe56222
Keith Levene (PIL, Clash) is a huge fan of Yes and was a roadie for a while. There is an interview with his experience...
http://www.furious.com/PERFECT/keithlevene.html
Mark Eitzel of American Music Club said Yes were a band that made him want to be in a band. I recently saw him talking about a Chris Squire record.
Sonic Youth are into Yes. Thurston Moore listed Yessongs as an important record. I'm sure he also said "Gates Of Delirium" was a fave.
Mark Kozelek covered Yes, so I'm assuming he is a fan. Grizzly Bear, Ariel Pink and Flaming Lips are the only others I can remember off the top of my head.

Van Der Graaf Generator is loved by John Lydon, Mark E Smith and Peter Murphy. I think the Magazine vocalist also, but I'm not sure.

This piece about the subject looks pretty interesting but I'm not paying that much...
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3877580?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102659029081

Some lists of things Rick Wakeman and Phil Collins have appeared on, I think these lists were supposed to surprise people with the array of bands that has worked with them...
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/groonrikk/ha__you_have_some_rick_wakeman_in_your_collection_/
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/groonrikk/phil_collins___session_drummer_and_producer/1/

I've written a lot of this before and if I read about music regularly I'm sure I'd have loads of examples. But this is starting to sound pathetically defensive, because nobody should need Lydon, Cave or anyone else's approval to like music which is obviously brilliant. And also that there isnt a whole lot of anti-prog left in internet circles that I can see anymore.
I was just started to read music magazines in the late 90s and I was still within the time to be brainwashed into thinking prog was bad. I thought "how could bands routinely listed as being the worst of the worst possibly be any good?". But after getting into lots of previously villified music, eventually Yes turn out to be one of my ultimate bands and prog my most rewarding (though not my favorite) genre.

I do dislike quite a few things about prog. I think the fans have given the genre the pompous reputation more than any of the bands, many of them are very dismissive and snobbish. The majority of the bands from the 80s onwards are really poor and derivative. The fans and the newer bands seem happy to be in the shadow of their heroes and just pay tribute; but metal bands worship their heroes but probably dont mind the idea of surpassing them.
I hate how often prog fans act as if Prog is continually progressive, because I find it mostly stagnant. On a creative level any genre or creative act can be progressive or any of the values associated with punk. I think it is perfectly fine for prog and punk music to simply just be a style. I think progress in music is highly subjective.
But I dont think prog bands have more low periods than any other bands. Most of the bands are willing to admit their low points, especially Yes. I dont have much punk music but I have heard quite a lot of punk fans say their favorite bands had a terrible decline. Like Ramones and The Damned. Is that fair? I'd like to hear what people think about which punk bands prospered and which ones went terribly downhill.

I think some prog bands would be better liked if they were not from the UK. I think more people would dislike Magma and Goblin had they come from the UK. I think if Yes had stopped after Relayer they would probably be as loved as King Crimson and VdGG.

I'll stop now.

Mark Kozelek covered Yes, so I'm assuming he is a fan

hey robert, check this out ~

http://www.dustedmagazine.com/features/836

Yes is that beloved! (by a sorta different crowd, but every really prog-oriented message board I've visited seems obsessed)

but still, good post - I never liked how people constantly would bring up how Lydon loved Peter Hammill as though that singlehandedly validated his existence.

Sonic Youth are into Yes. Thurston Moore listed Yessongs as an important record. I'm sure he also said "Gates Of Delirium" was a fave.

Do you (or someone) have a source for this?

Krautrock bands rarely embrace that term. Faust is the only band I've seen say they like the name, others were mostly bemused, annoyed or insulted by it.

How many prog bands were happy to be called prog rock I wonder?

Bands generally don't like being labelled

Van Der Graaf Generator is loved by John Lydon, Mark E Smith and Peter Murphy. I think the Magazine vocalist also, but I'm not sure.

Pretty sure that Magazine were prog fans, just from listening to the music. They filched the bass line in the second half of Back To Nature from Yes am I right? Yours Is No Disgrace iirc.

I wish that band were actually called "Yes am I right?"

well obviously the correct answer to Yes is No innit?

"Yes is no, and no is yes"

How many prog bands were happy to be called prog rock I wonder?

I dunno, I had the sense that many were fine with the term "progressive rock" (or else "art rock"). Jimmy Page uses it himself to describe what Zeppelin was doing when they got more compositionally ambitious. Yes's website describes them as "pioneers of progressive rock". Did many bands complain about the term? On the other hand, I have no trouble seeing why German bands would feel uncomfortable with this term, especially if it was given to them by the UK press: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraut

Pretty sure I've read Peter Hammill say, "We were never a prog rock band". Possibly Fripp too.

yeah don't think I'd've really categorised either among the prog bands or among anything else really. Other than good inventive sui generis. Though King Crimson presumably were one of teh major influences on the creation of the genre.

Court of the Crimson King sounds v. influential but i think if you looked at the history of the major canonical players in the early UK prog scene they arrived at their thing kind of independently and none of them were fully Prog from day one

I seen an interview with Hammill where he said it used to bother him being called prog because he thought of stage theatrics that he never did and would raise an eyebrow at at the mention of the genre name, but he said he stopped caring what he was labelled. He said he was impressed by Genesis.

Thurston Moore said that in the Uncut magazine feature maybe four years ago in the part where bands list their 8-10 most formative records. Todd Rundgren also included them on his list and said he yearned for there to be music in the vein of Yes again, but he is more obvious because he did Utopia, Wizard A True Star and Initiation.

Fripp rejects the label to this day even though most other Crimson members dont mind it.

Forgot to mention Jon Anderson collab with Tangerine Dream.

The Magazine vocalist said on a BBC programme that "Yours Is No Disgrace" was one of the few Yes songs he could stand.

don't think I'd've really categorised either among the prog bands or among anything else really.

Really? Both KC and VdGG exemplify the qualities I associate with progressive rock, even by a narrow UK symphonic prog definition. I completely understand why they'd rather not be slotted into a category, though, especially one that was so 'controversial'.

I'd definitely describe both as prog rock!

I don't think it's the categorisation per se, it's the bunch of rub bands they get lumped in with.

Fripp clearly had no problem working with Greg Lake, Bill Bruford, and Peter Gabriel, though.

Bah, another thing I forgot is Julian Cope saying that Mark E Smith tried to join Henry Cow.

Yes, it is well worth keeping in mind that genres shouldnt be taken too seriously and to just take everything as music first and foremost, even if they intentionally are working in a genre framework. I think genre labels are fun and extremely useful but I dont think they should be seen as something set in stone, I think new genre labels should be made up whenever people find it useful. I dont get it when folks get upset about someone trying to coin new genre labels because it always has to start with someone and genres can expand and change definitions just like the rest of language. It might not always catch on but no sense in stopping yourself.

I think it happens in most genres that the bands dislike getting called something but end up accepting it later on. Most goth bands denied being goth to the extent that people joked that denying being a goth were one of the defining characteristics of goths. I've heard that UK Decay are the first band to embrace the term. Sisters Of Mercy reject it to this day funnily enough. I thought it was also funny that Siouxsie in an interview complained that she should have been on the cover of the NME Originals Goth issue instead of Robert Smith.
I bet there are legendary classical, jazz and blues musicians who wouldnt be happy being called that, but even rock bands who hate being labelled probably dont think twice about calling someone Classical, Blues or Jazz.

In The Court Of The Crimson King is often said to be the first proper prog album but I think Procol Harum and Moody Blues are deserving of it. Those bands also seemed fine with being called prog. When a genre builds around you and raises you up at the centre, I dont see the point in rejecting it, you are clearly a part of it wether you intended it or not and I dont think it places any creative obligations on you; you can still do whatever you like. You dont have to embrace it, but to protest seems pointless to me. I know that some people will place false expectations on you and that can send people to you for the wrong reasons and they'll bitch that you dont live up to something you never tried to do, but there's not much anyone can do about that and I dont think the protests of Fripp and Eldritch have made a bit of difference.
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock" for bands like Coldplay, Keane, Athlete, Snow Patrol etc, who were all big successes in large part due to supermarket sales.

Keeping in mind that you dont know what bands have embraced the "prog" descriptor, I dont think it is fair to stick closely to Krautrock and Rock In Opposition but avoid regular prog, because it seems like those bands are punished for being in the wrong country or scene. In that BBC krautrock documentary one major point was that it was not a scene at all apart from a few shared band members and a producer (I forget his name) who worked with many of the bands. I'm fairly sure if Captain Beefheart had been far more obscure, they would have been called an obscure prog band.

I know people really adore Can's Tago Mago, so I feel that maybe I dont get it as much as other people but listening to it, I always feel like it needs trimming as much as Tales From The Topographic Oceans.

Something else I forgot to mention about prog fandom I dont like: there is fans of every genre that overpraise lousy stuff, but recently I saw people calling the Antonius Rex albums Zora and Ralefun masterpieces, but they are some of the worst albums I've ever heard by a band I like ((or at least I like one album and a few songs and the first two Jacula albums, but I think the band are a half lie cobbled together from various uncredited bands.

See the start of this Fripp interview...
http://www.dgmlive.com/word.htm?&name=crimson&review=1706

He also worked with Jon Anderson briefly and Wetton was in loads of prog bands.

The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"
The only truly insulting genre name I've ever heard is "Housewife Rock"

I'm not sure how to respond to this.

It is pretty harsh on housewives tbf.

I think the label "housewife rock" insults everyone concerned. I cant imagine anyone made up that name as anything other than an insult to the bands and listeners.

why is it insulting?

I'm not familiar with that label but it would seem to be blatantly based on stereotypes about 'housewives' and their preferences, in the same way that 'Dadrock' is also a bit insulting.

NV concern troll persona = ACTIVATED.

(Of course it's fucking insulting, NV, you nobber.)

if I may wade in here at this sensitive moment, VdGG were punk as fuck

well my real radge generator is about treating genre as a real thing rather than a rhetorical device

but i think one shd be careful about chucking around the word "housewife" as self-evidently insulting

and i'm going to walk away now i don't need to do this to myself

(xp) I don't see how

Well, "Dad" is not an insult per se, but dadrock is.. And so on

Housewife not an insult these days is it? I'm off to write an angry letter to the Telegraph in that case.

TS: prog goth (swans) vs. goth prog (goblin)

prog is punk

Housewife goth

prog is dad

Housewife is presumably a music with the danger removed or utterly contained possibly through over familiarity. I'm assuming some reference to 'housewife's choice' which at least used to be beloved of daytime & Radio 2 djs.

Now they probably play prog on Radio 2. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog. Prog.

Don't think they ever didn't play it (if the Moody Blues count as prog)

"progressive" is a dirty word to plutocrats and their sycophants, witting and unwitting

yes or can, rush or faust, i never get sick of listening to any of them. prognosticatory rock

smart rock, dork rock, cool junk, p-funk, despite all the computations, you could dance to the rock & roll music. and it was alright

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/specialcamper/gif/headshakeconan.gif

77 votes for prog, 60 for kraut

the mightiest deltron zero, and automator, hit the walls with a carbonator

Yes! Fuck you, prog

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq77/McNa5ty_photos/fp-logo.png

77 tools

^^^posts that sum up &c

i like prog, but not the stuff they play on classic rock radio. the german stuff, like harmonia and ash ra tempel. but it's not because i'm an elitist or anything. keith emerson's the elitist, not me

Does Manuel Gottsching count as krautrock?

no he's Balearic

Ah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWejItJsyhQ

I would not count solo Gottsching as krautrock, no, any more than I would Klaus Schulze. Just because those dudes were in Ash Ra Tempel doesn't mean their solo stuff counts...

And I can't believe people are suggesting that Crimson isn't prog!!! I mean, they're probably the best prog band of all time. That's like saying Can doesn't qualify as krautrock. And I do love Can and have for many years, but my God are they cheesy sometimes. People tend to treat these canonical krautrock bands with the same over-reverence as they treat the UK stuff with under-appreciation and too-acute disdain.

I get the overzealousness there. Can really did make three of the best albums ever, back to back to back. And the surrounding releases aren't so bad either. KC on the other hand always seemed kind of inconsistent to me. Outside of the Wetton lineup that did Larks and Red I don't think any of their lineups did more than one great album (of course, most of the lineups weren't even together for more than one album, but still, quality seems to vary wildly from album to album with them). I also feel the Can stuff seems to hold up better over time - Future Days still sounds like it could've been recorded yesterday.

"but my God are they cheesy sometimes"

for example?

maybe from Flow Motion on? though you hardly see people stanning for those albums (outside of "I Want More" which totally rules)

"Saw Delight" has many a stan

yeah, i never listened to anything from after Future Days (most fans didn't i think)
xpost

I assume that's a joke

KC on the other hand always seemed kind of inconsistent to me.

The 70s albums tend to be about two-thirds good and the rest filler. I think that they didn't work too well under the release schedule constraints of the time, when bands had to release an album and tour every year. If they'd been able to do an album every two years or so it'd probably have been all good (apart from that Ladies Of The Road song of course).

we can fly from here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g068OXdPV4I

i'd rather be dead or out of my head than training a gun on men in the sand
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQWyMYXn4yc

yeah, i never listened to anything from after Future Days (most fans didn't i think)

stealth trolling at its finest

where are the great modern Kraut bands?
Oneida to thread

not, obv, "strictly" a Kraut band, but to me they take the best elements of 70s Kraut and extend, develop & deepen them.

Not enough critical chops to take on all comers, but I'll stan for them til my dying breath, at least.

Can cheese:

Both Malcolm and Damo have somewhat cheesy voices
"Smoked a haiku cigarette"
"I'm So Green"--cheesy song! Great song, but cheesy
Vast swaths of "Augmn"
Lots of the later stuff (as folks have mentioned)

delicious cheese

oneida's proggier than they are "kraut" or whatever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2xsW-pp9Ls

As far as new krautrock bands, I like Camera (from Berlin) a lot but their music is basically a Neu! pastiche.

There is nothing cheesy about 'Cool in the Pool'. NOTHING.

I thought everyone was going to throw shit at me for saying I thought Tago Mago was far too long, but no thoughts? Anybody enjoy every single minute of it?

I wish "Augmn" was only 10 minutes instead of 20 but otherwise I wouldn't cut anything

There was a compilation called Cannibalism 1 that had several tracks in much shorter edits including Mother Sky and Aumgn but hey were obviously taken from the longer lp versions. Might satisfy somebody looking for a shorter version of the tracks though.
Songs often got considerably longer live too.

Very delicious cheese! I just think non-German cheese can be equally delicious... Robert, I do agree on Tago Mago overstaying its welcome a bit. I usually only listen through Halleluwah. My most listened to Can is probably Soon Over Babaluma.

"Smoked a haiku cigarette"

It's "Smoked a high cool cigarette"

Don't what's meant by "cheesy" in this context tbh

Don't know

"High cool cigarette" makes as little sense and is mave even cheesier! I don't really know what to say to make the cheesiness come alive for you... Does anyone else see the cheesiness in what I mentioned?

I'm with Tom. what do you mean by "cheesy"

I dunno... I think Malcolm Mooney sounds a little bit like a homeless dude who wandered into an open mic night. I LOVE him, don't get me wrong--and mave you're right, maybe "cheesy" is the wrong word, but I look askance at anyone who claims to never have raised an eyebrow in their early encounters with Malcom's or Damo's vocals...

http://www.gurl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/hands-on-head.gif

wasn't damo actually homeless when he joined?

all music is cheesy and corny, btw, my god.

He was a busker, not the same thing.

life is corny

except for the velvet underground. they're for real baby. syracuse university is a rough and tumble campus

I thought everyone was going to throw shit at me for saying I thought Tago Mago was far too long, but no thoughts? Anybody enjoy every single minute of it?

absolutely, it's my favorite. although for the first few years of owning it i mostly only listened to the first half.