taylor swift red poll

out of the corner of my eye i thought this said "taylor swift neti pot"

i find it hard to evaluate the singles on this album up against the album tracks so

album tracks

1 all too well
2 holy ground
3 begin again
4 state of grace
5 sad beautiful tragic

singles

1 22
2 i knew you were trouble
3 red
4 we are never ever
5 ed sheerhan joint

i voted 22

then~
all too well/starlight
we are never
i almost do

i want to vote treacherous/i knew you were trouble/all too well as a multifaceted joint peak, easy top 3 anyway

4. red
5. begin again

haven't listened to this album in a while, but iirc my favorite is "red"

actually "red" is kind of up there with the top 3

"red" for the melody, "treacherous" for the feelings, "trouble" for the pop rush, "all too well" for the craftsmanship

or is it "treacherous" for the craftsmanship and "all too well" for the feelings

i believe they're called "feels."

i voted trouble

i only know the singles and i only like the country radio ones, "Red" narrowly over "Begin Again"

the keyboard on "red" eventually won me over

tuff. gonna impulse vote 'the lucky one' since i feel it may be underrepresented.

voted Holy Ground

Holy Ground
Red

Trouble
Begin Again
Starlight
Treacherous

All Too Well
Never Ever
22
State of Grace
The Lucky One

Sad Beautiful Tragic
Stay Stay Stay
The Last Time

would vote "Girl at Home" in that second group, with Trouble, Begin Again, etc.

otm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZHhQKKRdc

not blind to the attraction of that

1. all too well
2. 22
3. red

all too well is amazing, i don't even mind that part of the teardrops on my guitar melody was recycled for it

Love "We Are Never..." but never really got into this album otherwise.

1. starlight
2. sad beautiful tragic
tie for 3: red/ trouble
tie for 4: all too well / 22

AND I GUESS WE FELL APART IN THE USUAL WAY
AND THE STORY'S GOT DUST ON EVERY PAGE
BUT SOMETIMES I WONDER HOW YOU THINK ABOUT IT NOW
AND I SEE YOUR FACE IN EVERY CROWD

WE'RE DANCING 'ROUND THE KITCHEN IN THE REFRIGERATOR LIGHT

I READ YOU SHOULD NEVER LEAVE A FIGHT
UNRESOLVED

but no the answer is "treacherous"

every song on this is perfect except the 2 duets/"the lucky one" and none of those are actively bad (k maybe the gary lightbody one)

ikywt/wanegbt/red/starlight just have the most amazing melodies

oh and mother of mercy "begin again" <<<<<<<<<<3

so many good ones, particularly IKYWT and Red, and 22 - I know it's more gauche than her usual stuff but i have a lot of love for its absolute giddy IDGAF-ness

but the mighty "treacherous" trumps all

possibly my fave t-swift song ever (sophie's choice b/w that and "enchanted")

oh "holy ground" is soooo good also

gr8 album basically. obviously.

starlight is the one i've played when in doldrums at work this year. and it has never failed to knock my socks off and put me in the right mood again. i adore nearly every song on this but that got my vote

but the mighty "treacherous" trumps all

possibly my fave t-swift song ever (sophie's choice b/w that and "enchanted")

― monotony, Sunday, September 22, 2013 10:29 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh "holy ground" is soooo good also

gr8 album basically. obviously.

― monotony, Sunday, September 22, 2013 10:30 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Agree with all of this, Monotony you are speaking righteously.

Basically "Treacherous" is my number 1 forever and yes it's a fight to the death with "Enchanted" for the title of finest song in Taylor's discography.

"Holy Ground" is my number 2, then "All Too Well", and then a surprisingly large number of tracks all clustered around an indistinguishable level of greatness ("State of Grace", "Red", "I Knew You Were Trouble", "22", "Begin Again", "I Almost Do", maybe "Starlight").

It seems to me that "Red" has grown in people's estimations since the album came out? A lot of people were down on it at first IIRC.

If I was gonna cast a sympathy vote it would be for "I Almost Do", which seems curiously underrated esp. given it has one of Taylor's most magical, moving, "camera pans out and reveals we're working on a much more expansive and nuanced emotional terrain than previously realised" middle-eights.

1. holy ground
2. wanegbt
3. bonus track demo version of state of grace

feel like most people i know do not agree with me that wanegbt was the best single from this

starlight is the one i've played when in doldrums at work this year. and it has never failed to knock my socks off and put me in the right mood again. i adore nearly every song on this but that got my vote

― making plans for nyquil (outdoor_miner)

^^^ this. I'm glad she never released it as a single. It'll remain a "secret" highlight for fans.

I'm pretty much in sync with Tim. "Holy Ground" would have been my top pick the first few weeks of listening, and "Treacherous" at first just registered as a nice tune with some good lines, but after a while it became the song I wanted to hear again. I think I said this on the Red thread, but "Treacherous" has her best-ever singing imo -- the restrained excitement of the verse/chorus and the explosive desire of the bridge.

"State of Grace" and "I Almost Do" would be my underdog picks. (If Bono's got any sense left, there'll be a U2 cover of "State of Grace" as a bonus track on the new album.)

http://vine.co/v/hveOe3hLJE3

wow i thought i was the only person who would have "enchanted" in their tswift top 3

it has one of Taylor's most magical, moving, "camera pans out and reveals we're working on a much more expansive and nuanced emotional terrain than previously realised" middle-eights.

It occurs to me that this or similar is a feature of nearly all my favourite Taylor tunes.

"State of Grace" is the most overlooked track on this record

Starlight
Holy Ground
Stay Stay Stay

that's all I've kept. The rest I still hear on the radio.

wow i thought i was the only person who would have "enchanted" in their tswift top 3

*raises hand*

this is still "holy ground" btw but everyone otm about "treacherous"

On a whole-of-song basis I would be very tempted to go for "Holy Ground". If I was doling out awards it probably should win "Best Song", but then "Treacherous" would scoop the balance of the prize pool: "Most affecting vocals in a Taylor song"; "Greatest second chorus in a Taylor song"; "Most arresting and perceptive lyrics in a Taylor song" etc.

The fact that Alfred hasn't retained it marks him out as incorrigibly glib and heartless.

all too well

enchanted is definitely top 10 or maybe even top 5, and treacherous is a perfectly serviceable song, but to put the two even in the same circle

man

Imagine Swift songs called:

Incorrigle
Incorrigibly Glib
Heartless

I Knew You Were Incorrigible When You Logged In

This album has so many pleasing little lyrical flourishes, like the shift in "Stay, Stay, Stay" from "I've been loving you for quite some time" to "I'll be loving you for quite some time".

Voted "Red" here over "Begin Again"

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Just noticed how great "All Too Well" is the other day. Wide screen narrative.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Ah, OK, I had no idea "All Too Well" was such a favorite!

Surprised state of grace didn't get more love

I'm glad I put in a vote for "Begin Again", just so it charts. But yeah, there's tons of great tracks on here.

Poor "I Almost Do" :'-(

excellent results apart from the bizarre "starlight" overrating and presumably the joke "everything has changed" vote

"everything has changed" isn't that bad. but then again i may have been brainwashed by all the play it is getting on my local hot ac station. i like it better than "stay stay stay" which sounds like an unpleasant spotify commercial.

7. "I Almost Do" 0

yeah this is crazy; and it hits so hard & w/ pinpoint accuracy after a breakup :{

listened to this album for the first time in a while tonight...so completely killer. i even like the duets OK, esp. the Sheeran one. i don't hate the Lightbody one, but then i kinda like the one Snow Patrol CD I have (Final Straw).

still, when the Lightbody duet and Sad Beautiful Tragic are the worst songs on a 16-track album, you've put together something pretty special, I'd say.

sad beautiful tragic is seriously magical

what an album

today i am seriously vibing with "the lucky one"

I had forgotten that "Treacherous" actually won this poll.

where she fell off

Listened to this for the first time in years yesterday and wow it's even better than i remember it. Begin Again is such a heartbreaker

"where she fell off" = crying laughing emoji

this album is really frustrating to me because i think it might be her best album if those terrible duets weren't on it, and neither were the martin/shellback tracks which aren't bad but are all a little underwritten and feel like they're from a completely different album. removing those brings it down to 11 tracks which is a much more manageable length too.

the highs among the remaining tracks are so high though! like "red", "treacherous", "all too well", "holy ground", "starlight", "begin again" - all incredible

only recently came across "Ronan"; my favorite Red-era songs are probably that and "Girl At Home". Swap those with the lame duets.

as i said upthread i think, no one rates "the moment i knew" but i do and i wish it were in "the last time"'s place, and "girl at home" rules

but then "the last time" has pretty great strings, and honestly "everything has changed" is a good song that happens to have ed sheeran on it

so it's still my favorite taylor album

love this album... its songs range from v. good to great, IMO.

i do think the duets are among the weakest tracks on this album, but they're not *terrible* ... if i was gonna trim, i'd start with Sad Beautiful Tragic and The Last Time

imo there are like 7-8 songs here that i could vote for for #1 but i'm guessing i chose between the amazing "Red" and the also amazing "All Too Well"

this is peak TS and one of the best albums of the 21st century so far

ok actually fuck y’all i love “the last time”

still adore "Starlight"

well, you need love in an increasingly terrifying world

“the lucky one” is a rilo kiley song

oh my
what a marvelous tune

honestly "everything has changed" is a good song that happens to have ed sheeran on it

an accurate statement of underacknowledged truth

the beginning with 'state of grace' kills me everytime.

Since we've been talking so much about Taylor Swift's lyrics, and there doesn't seem to be a Taylor Swift: Classic or Dud thread, I thought I'd come in here and say how much I like the song "Begin Again." I have mixed feelings about Swift's work, and I'm not crazy about her last two albums, but this is one song where I think all the Swifty details - the high heels, the James Taylor records, the general upper-class-ness of the whole cafe scene - add up to something intensely perceptive about the human experience.

"On a Wednesday/in a cafe/I watched it begin again" is such a beautiful line on its own; there's something very appealing to me about that that contrast between the mundane, the ordinary, and that unexpected sense of life renewing itself. The word "watched" is a nice detail, with the way it puts her outside of herself, watching herself come back to life; it's like she's at a place where she can see it more than she can feel it. It reminds me of John Prine singing "And I find it real surprising/for myself to hear me say/that everything is cool/everything's okay."

But this is also a really nuanced portrait of what seems like mild PTSD from a toxic, borderline abusive relationship. This is where I think all the biographical stuff that surrounded this album really got in the way. If you forget all that, and just think of this as a song about someone getting out of a relationship where her interests, her personality and her general worth were constantly dismissed, it becomes a really beautiful "this is your brain on PTSD" character sketch: her passionate gratitude for basic politeness; her intense surprise that someone could find her funny, the way every interaction with her new date sends her brain circling back to the ex and how he saw her, so that even as she's giving us this charming image of her date laughing, her interior monologue keeps making it into a reflection of everything that was missing in her old relationship. And then that moment at the end when the new guy is carrying on a perfectly ordinary conversation about movies, and you realize this is the first time she's been able to stop thinking for long enough to actually hear him. I don't think I would have to know anything about the biographical details behind this to know that this new relationship isn't going to last; this isn't really a love song so much as it's a song about slowly coming back to a sense of your own self-worth. And there are a million songs about that out there, and many of them suck, but this one rings true to me.

It's funny that I like this song so much, because Taylor's tendency to always cast herself as the victim and her ex as the bad guy is one of the things I find frustrating about her early work, and I like Lover in part because it's a shift away from that. But hey, sometimes there really is a bad guy and a victim, and I think this is a perceptive and beautiful song about the aftermath of a relationship like that.

that's a really great analysis!!! i sometimes forget how much i love that song and reading that totally put me back in touch with it

Thank you for saying that! I was starting to feel kind of embarrassed about that post. It's frustrating when I find myself using a million heavy words to describe a song that I value precisely for its lyrical economy and lightness of touch.

lol i mean i feel like that's what criticism is

you def clarified the way i personally connect to the song (as the ptsd aftermath of a really bad relationship), i just had never put words to it

Shame there were no votes for One More Red Nightmare.

And here ya go

The next album that I’ll be releasing is my version of Red, which will be out on November 19. This will be the first time you hear all 30 songs that were meant to go on Red. And hey, one of them is even ten minutes long🧣 https://t.co/FOBLS5aHpS pic.twitter.com/6zWa64Owgp

— Taylor Swift (@taylorswift13) June 18, 2021

Cool!

:D

ten minute long Red-era Taylor let'sgoooooooo

it was always spiritually a double album, to me

it's a 10 minute We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together (Oops! All WEEEEEEs remix)

lol i was about to say

22 (The Last Nine Years Remix)

Is the 10-minute song a long version of "All Too Well"? Wasn't that originally an epic?

who the hell cares -- seriously

so much new music but we Swift fans are supposed to put more time into another version of an album?

xxp My Swiftie coworker says with authority that it is indeed “All Too Well.”

...now with Drums & Space!

very excited for taylor's mellon collie

The infinite regress

it would be more exciting if she made her mellon collie now in her new indie-singer/songwriter style, rather than re-releasing old music...

but a ten-minute version of all too well? sometimes quantity really is more important than quality. inject it directly into my veins.

so much new music but we Swift fans are supposed to put more time into _another_ version of an album?

this album already had too many needless tracks

Preorder is digital download format only? Why

I dunno, I can readily believe that she wrote a shitload of tracks that (a) didn’t make it; and (b) are better than several of the songs that were included. From a sales perspective it makes more sense to include a blah Gary Lightbody duet and a flawed-but-interesting Mazzy Star homage over a sixth and seventh flawless love song about Jake Gyllenhaal.

this album already had too many needless tracks

― dyl, Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:49 AM (one hour ago)

wrong

anyway artists release expanded editions of albums w/ demos and b sides all the time, what's the big deal

if the vault tracks for fearless hadn’t been mostly astonishing i’d be wondering myself, but

*presses post*
*cackles maniacally*

Level: casually cruel in the name of being honest pic.twitter.com/Tf0ahCMql8

— Taylor Swift (@taylorswift13) August 5, 2021

phoebe bridgers and chris stapleton to appear on red (taylor's version)

fairly good upgrade from Ed Sheeran and Snow Patrol guy

don't worry, ed sheeran will still be there

of course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRxrwjOtIag

10 minute "all too well" doesn't really justify its length but it's still great to hear. gorgeous & shimmering & she wrings endless new variations out of the melody

the actual rerecordings of red are either ok (title track) or suck (i knew you were trouble). i still don't like this project

i thought trouble and getting back together both sounded noticeably livelier and more fun on first listen... is she doing 1989 as well? that'd be insane. wildest dreams is a worldie

"All Too Well" is probably my favorite Swift song -- the one that made me fully confident that she was more than the current teen pop sensation.

I love this through about the 7 minute mark and am fully obsessed with the new lyrics!:

They say all's well that ends well/ but I'm in a new hell every time/ you double-cross my mind/
You say if we had been closer in age maybe it would have been fine/ and that made me want to die/
The idea you had of me who was she?/ A never-needy ever lovely jewel whose shine reflects on you/
Not weeping in a party bathroom/ some actress asking me what happened/ YOU. That's what happened. YOU.

the brand new arrangement of "girl at home" is dope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNckfN9upqo

her version of "better man" is also like... 1000x better than the little big town version? i think? someone confirm

"nothing new"... wow a long lost collection of devastating taylor swift lyrics from 2012, just what i wanted, brb crying forever

How long will it be cute
All this crying in my room
When you can’t blame it on my youth
And roll your eyes with affection
And my cheeks are growing tired
From turning red and faking smiles
Are we only biding time till I lose your attention?
And someone else lights up the room
People love an ingénue

kick my ass taylor swift!!!!

Nothing new is definitely too good to have been shelved

Whether you prefer the re-recordings or OG is kinda besides the point here, I think, the genius of the project is that we, people around the world, will sit down again with her entire album discography - en masse- and really talk and listen to it. I don't know exactly how she'd be able to make these big events happen without the gimmick of the project. We re-appraise, we find new truths from different contexts, and for her, as a businesswoman, the breadth of her career is appreciated by more people and sells a lot more. Plus of course the extra EPs worth of new old songs. For something that does seem like it happened by accident, it's brilliant.

"message in a bottle" like the rerecorded "girl at home" is like an alt-universe version of taylor-going-pop, very refreshing

Didn't get into this when it came out but my kids are into it and I'm enjoying listening to it with fresh ears.

I really rode hard for this album when it came out and can't say I've revisited it even once in the 8 or 9 years since. Big & Rich 2.0

even the new ed sheeran duet ("run") is really good, lmao

Just listened to Taylor's version of "Begin Again" and the original back to back, and I think I like this better than some of the earlier re-recordings, but I still feel like something of the freshness and immediacy of the original gets lost in the process of trying to copy her own vocals. It's still a beautiful song and it still sounds great, but to my ears the vocals in the original carry more of that sense of wonder and surprise and gratitude that makes the song so devastating.

https://www.gawker.com/celebrity/taylor-swift-is-lying-about-all-too-well-10-minute-version-taylors-version

Author uses Google trends to prove Taylor could not possibly have heard the phrase "Fuck the Patriarchy" in 2011.

Swift herself did not enter her feminista era until 2014.

.......lol

yup, people can't say "fuck the patriarchy" on a record until they get their certified Feminist certificate in the mail, those are the rules, I don't make them, case closed.

tumblr seems poorly indexed by google afaict xp

of course i have no way of proving that the phrase appeared there before then, but i would also bet tens of dollars on taylor swift having used tumblr in the early '10s

And a "fuck the patriarchy" keychain wouldn't necessarily need to be widely sold and advertised on the internet in order to exist; it's the sort of thing that you can find at farmer's markets and street fairs and so on.

TS officially joined tumblr in late 2014, but I’m sure she was on there earlier.

https://www.gawker.com/celebrity/taylor-swift-is-lying-about-all-too-well-10-minute-version-taylors-version

Author uses Google trends to prove Taylor could not possibly have heard the phrase "Fuck the Patriarchy" in 2011.

― Chappies banging dustbin lids together (President Keyes), Friday, November 12, 2021 11:49 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

If this was Bob Dylan presenting some new song as an outtake from Blood on the Tracks, I'm pretty sure ppl would be chuckling about Dylan being a weirdo and teasing out all the Dylan masks not straight up calling him a liar.

I don’t have a real view on it nor do I think it’s impossible for TS to be telling the truth on it, it’s just a flimsy reasoning to hang a piece on. I generally like new Gawker a lot fwiw.

the weird thing is if I were trying to single out a part of the song that feels like it was written later, it woudn't be the keychain thing at all, it would be the "just between us" part which reminds me of her folklore/evermore lyrical style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy9r6xvGK1M

I was totally on board with the ten-minute "All Too Well" until I got to the "Just between us" part. Not that any one addition felt all that necessary to me on its own, but the increasing epic OTT-ness of the emotion works well imo and I love all the details; that conversation with the actress in the bathroom is amazing vintage TS. But then she starts doing her vague mixed-metaphor thing and she loses me, right at the end.

Has she actually claimed that all the add'l lyrics date from the time the song was written? (I'm not clicking on the Gawker article, perhaps it addresses this crucial point)

Listening to the 10-min. version now, I agree they don't necessarily seem to jibe with the OG lyrics; but I wouldn't think to call it out or GAF

Cycling back to the beginning of the bonus traxx (I'll hit up the main album afterward) – I prefer the original takes of "Moment I Knew" and "Come Back, Be Here," but I agree the new version of "Girl at Home" is cool!

I remember reading something from a while back about how the original "All Too Well" was ten minutes long and had the f-word in it. I don't know if she's made any claims about not tinkering with the lyrics since, though.

This new acoustic "State of Grace" is so nice...

this new version of all too well is sure is longer than the original

Lol

I didn't really like the original All Too Well as much as most people seem to, I think because the turn at the end felt kind of pat and petty to me. Once it becomes a ferociously angry too-long epic, I like it better because it feels more raw and real; the shift from "I remember" to "you remember" feels less like carefully designed lyrical symmetry and more like something she has to tell herself to deal with all the anger.

"I Bet You Think About Me" is awesome

"Forever Winter," too... wow

She's gotta roll out a live version of this mega-All Too Well doesn't she? SNL or someone should give her a 10-minute block.

I believe that's the plan.

the chorus of "Nothing New" keeps reminding me of early Counting Crows and I cannot figure out why. "Mr. Jones" maybe?

It becomes a totally different song, veering off in completely new directions – very cool (I'm just not so hot on the backing vox, but whatevs).

Oh she is on SNL, lol. I didn't even know that. Of course she is.

full court press dept.

https://i.imgur.com/xP1Hn2r_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Monday 1:00pm InfoWars

I was totally on board with the ten-minute "All Too Well" until I got to the "Just between us" part. Not that any one addition felt all that necessary to me on its own, but the increasing epic OTT-ness of the emotion works well imo and I love all the details; that conversation with the actress in the bathroom is amazing vintage TS. But then she starts doing her vague mixed-metaphor thing and she loses me, right at the end.

― Lily Dale, Friday, November 12, 2021 12:08 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yep

The use of "love affair" in that part feels awkward, a little dainty.

Still, I like the overall sweep of it.

Listened to the first four songs on my drive home from Target... OMG! The rockers are fierce! The production is amazingly clear (at least when compared w/the original)... have I just not heard a newly recorded rock album in a while(?) It sounded like the bass drum was in the backseat with me.

Her vocals also sound more committed to me – at least so far – than they did on the Fearless redo. There's real energy here!

(I think I accidentally ended up w/the "Clean" version, lol)

the story behind the 10-minute "all too well" is it only ever existed previously as a recording of an improvised jam with her touring band (& the lyrics were at least semi-improvised was the implication there?) & then she significantly edited that down to get the "all too well" she actually recorded for red

then for this project she went back & recorded a full studio version of that original 10-minute demo, keeping the original lyrics but reworking the arrangement with antonoff

i'm not sure i buy that she really improvised most of the lyrics on the spot but maybe some?

a recording of an improvised jam with her touring band

Grateful Red

Heh

it is very annoying that ed sheeran counts out both of the songs he guests on

"run" is great tho. once again the vault tracks deliver

Vault tracks are good! I agree the rerecording is kind of whatever, but another album's worth of Red-era tracks is fine by me.

I still can’t get over the clarity & presence of the mix/production… not to get all Hoffman Forums scum, but – somebody else with the CD, tell me I’m not crazy… doesn’t it sound really fuckin’ good??

my feeling about the 10-minute "all too well" is: yes, of course, the choices she made for the final version were correct in terms of delivering a song that works as a song, but: all the lines she cut totally slap. like, the first difference is a way-overextended death metaphor in true taylor swift fashion, and the dad interlude is devastating, and and and it just keeps mounting and mounting like a torrent, like different rivers of resentment feeding into a tidal wave of heartbreak. it's fucking... exhilarating(?) to listen to and truer to the feeling that produced the song than the final product, even if i prefer the edit. final "all too well": "i was there." 10-minute draft: "you were there too motherfucker"

oh also i am super whatever on the uncanny valley rerecording of "all too well" but all the little arrangement changes they made to the 10-minute version are exquisite

I can't tell if it's a matter of production or performance or both, but something's off about "Trouble" and "Never Getting Back Together" - like she can't quite call up the required insouciance. "Holy Ground" is maybe an improvement though? That and "Red" suggest she might make a solid hard rock record.

Red definitely left open the possibility of a Rock Taylor, which she has mostly not explored. She could do an E Street Band kind of album.

Get rid of Dessner and Antonoff (please) and hire idk Sturgill Simpson and Joan Jett

xxxpost i felt similarly about "22" ... she sounds like her heart's just not in it, like she feels silly singing that song at 31. idk, maybe i was hearing what i thought i should be hearing or something.

i felt similarly about "22" ... she sounds like her heart's just not in it, like she feels silly singing that song at 31. idk, maybe i was hearing what i thought i should be hearing or something.

I think I had the opposite reaction to "22" - I liked it but I think that's because I like the idea of someone significantly older than 22 singing it.

I thought "Red" sounded great. I would like to hear more Rock Taylor for sure.

all the little arrangement changes they made to the 10-minute version are exquisite

yeah i love the different arrangement on it & it's fascinating because it's the one time she's really re-interpreting an old song rather than just imitating the old recording as much as possible

yes! and it sounds so good and gives you a sense of how cool this project could be if she'd let herself re-interpret all the songs. The vault tracks are nice and all, and she's doing as good a job with this as she possibly could, but ultimately this whole revenge karaoke thing still seems like a very weird choice to me. Like, I get the business angle, but I can't imagine there's much artistic satisfaction in redoing your work if you can't allow yourself to change it.

yeah the re-recordings are not at all an interesting project but she's made up for that with the new material attached to them at least

oh wow she really changed up "girl at home", that's the only re-recording that's anywhere near this different, right? new version is great but what's the story there

I've embarrassed myself here praising "Starlight" over the years, but, my god, it sounds grander than ever.

the horns on "babe" are so good wow

"message in a bottle" is better than any of the martin/shellback tracks that actually made the album

the vault tracks are more consistent than the original album, obv the gorgeous brass arrangements on "forever winter" and "babe" wouldn't have been there originally but still how did she leave some of this material off in favour of "stay stay stay" etc.

even "run" with sheeran is good!

the “girl at home” change-up is so good. feels like a complete song now

"Holy Ground" is maybe an improvement though? That and "Red" suggest she might make a solid hard rock record.

― Freeze Instr., Friday, November 12, 2021 9:37 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Oh man, you're right, she'd crush it.

i have wanted her to make that record for eight years now, alas we live in a fallen world

revisiting this is a good reminder that its first three songs are just incredible ... well, really nine, imo, but definitely three. or five.

i like stay stay stay, but ok, maybe eight

but the first three, holy shit

i love treacherous and all too well like everyone else, but the title track ... i just love the lyrics of the title track.

yeah, my main takeaway so far is that the title track is really good and way better than I remembered it.

I said upthread that opening track "State Of Grace" gets me every time and it still does

On the faithful re-recording; interesting or not as the project may be in the abstract, their actual effect is to create an event that induces people like me, who never heard this record the first time around, to listen to it through and enjoy it! As popular as Swift is, there are a lot more people who haven't heard these songs than who have.

The new songs not only sound terrific, but the performances/arrangements are just new enough to make them "interesting" for me (I loved the original album, but haven't been compelled to listen to it in years).

The poppiest songs (like "WANGBT") do kind of lack the "snap" of the originals - which reinforces my skepticism that this approach can pay off for an album like Reputation (whose greatness relies so much on the specific details of the production, and the performances she delivered at the time)... I guess we'll see!

(it occurs to me that, in 2021, the idea of “some indie record that’s much cooler than mine” may no longer apply!)

“The Last Time” sounds gorgeous… what a song. I love her duets

I’ve always wondered what indie record she was thinking of when she wrote that line. Born to Die? Suck It and See?

Ravedeath, 1972

she was actually talking about best coast

like i’m not joking, that’s the real answer

SNL performance was great.

She must just not be my type of performer… I’ve heard great things about her concerts, but whenever I see a TV performance, it leaves me cold.

I loved the way the song *sounded* on SNL but I didn't actually think her expressed facial affect worked with the song

Yeah I feel like that's a perennial thing with her, her lyrics are much more nuanced than her kind of rote, literal physical presentation of them.

(Also why I generally don't like her videos.)

lol peace man

her over-acting is goofy but endearing

I have no problem with her facial expressions but was put off by the music video with its exact visual representation of everything we're being told about in the song lyrics. And also that it looks like a bunch of spliced-together scenes from Gilmore Girls.

Yeah the “short film” playing in the background doesn’t help

That was what I meant; I just felt silly calling it a short film when it's just a longish music video. (It's not even one of those music videos where there's some story playing out unrelated to the song, which could more reasonably be called short films but usually aren't.)

But yeah I meant the part where it was playing behind her and you couldn't look away.

Visually it was distracting but I enjoyed the meta-queen-of-all-media vibe of the whole thing.

She announced a new music video premiering tomorrow, for a different song (she’s actually calling this one a “music video,” ha ha).

i enjoyed the short film, it was less literal than i expected

new music video is for "I Bet You Think About Me"

i hope she pushes "message in a bottle" as a single but probably won't happen

I love the arrangement for the long "All Too Well", the way the muted throb establishes this basic consistency which allows for subtly different emphases as the song progresses, much in the same way that Taylor herself plays with her top line melodies, continually finding new variations on the underlying theme.

I remember thinking even back in 2012 that the fake-lightness of the upward lilt on "now you mail back my things and I walk home alone" felt like a minor milestone in Taylor's songwriting, the way she managed a perfect marriage between a shift in the narrative and a shift in the melodic variation (this is something that she picks up again a lot on the most recent two albums).

That denouement feels even more powerful coming after all the additional details - the age gap, crying at the Hollywood party, her 21st birthday etc (though arguably the descent back into bitterness afterwards (let alone the "just between us" section) then feels more like an add-on than if it had appeared earlier) - Taylor really gives the impression that she could keep on adding verses forever and keep coming up with new variations on the melody. I flashed back to the liner notes for Bjork's Debut where Nellee Hooper talks about having listened to the songs hundreds of times but still loving them - and he says something like "we're so lucky to have Bjork's voice!" I could imagine Taylor's collaborators similarly being knocked out by her melodic generosity - it makes a song like this so much more interesting a proposition than it would be otherwise (relatedly, I love the story from The Long Pond Sessions about Taylor spontaneously adding the second bridge to "August" while they were recording it).

Also I can't quite believe that Taylor has kept "You kept me like a secret but I kept you like an oath" in her back pocket for almost a decade. It's almost the archetypal TS lyric.

That the best you can do? Amateur stuff. Here's how it's done: https://rateyourmusic.com/music-review/nostalghia/taylor-swift/all-too-well-the-short-film/160999757

Great post, Pope Tim.

At the time, after Speak Now topped my 2010 best-of list, I dismissed Red as her weakest album. It took this version to undercut my bullshit.

she was actually talking about best coast

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Sunday, November 14, 2021 10:38 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

like i’m not joking, that’s the real answer

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Sunday, November 14, 2021 10:38 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Thank you Brad!

Just read the Fork review and ... it doesn't particularly read like an 8.5/Best New Music. But whatever.

Yeah, the review has an oddly grudging tone.

It’s actually very possible to be into this stuff without being a Swiftie or caring about Swift semiotics (…I’m living proof).

yeah, it’s the swift semiotics that turn me off the whole taylor project even though i greatly respect her as a songwriter and melodist. i almost never want to listen to her because each song comes with a wiki article’s worth of extra-textual baggage

It’s actually very possible to be into this stuff without being a Swiftie or caring about Swift semiotics (…I’m living proof).

― heterologous booster (morrisp),

hi!

Yeah I think as somebody who listens to Swift because my teenage kid does, there is an entire world of pretty normie Swift fandom which has very little extratextual stuff in it, and this world is much bigger than that of the semioticians.

I didn’t even know she dated Jake G, let alone that that song is about him!

i did but it was impossible for me to avoid the discourse at the time. regardless i do not give even the remotest shit that it's about him

she should write a song about gyllenhaal’s character in okja

I find it annoying that the implied choice (not on ILM per se, just in general) is between caring about all the autobiographical detail and not being invested in the songwriting at all. One of the best aspects of the shift in her songwriting in the last two albums (especially on Evermore) is the sense that that binary is no longer applicable. "Ivy" and "Cowboy Like Me" are two of the very best songs she has ever written, and both clearly have nothing to do with her own life.

I was discussing with Brad a while back all the questions I wish TS would get asked in interviews, basically all of which would dig into her songwriting craft. A big question I had coming out of Evermore is whether she feels like, if she is writing from the POV of a fictional character, her lyrical vocabulary changes. Which of course she would never actually be asked by an interviewer.

She doesn't really do many interviews does she?

I'm not really a fan, but I gained a lot of respect for her when I watched her documentary, which reveals a lot of the songwriting process. I wish there was a documentary just about Max Martin and how he writes for and with people. But he's even more locked down (certainly by choice, probably also by NDA) than she is.

Fwiw, I was at the time disappointed she went with Martin, which seemed to be such an easy, lazy choice. But in retrospect, it's afforded her the success and money to do whatever she wants. Though Speak Now, which she wrote entirely herself, of course already proved she needed no ringers.

Maybe pitchfork knew they couldn't really top Brad's previous review.

That the best you can do? Amateur stuff. Here's how it's done: https://rateyourmusic.com/music-review/nostalghia/taylor-swift/all-too-well-the-short-film/160999757

― imago, Monday, 15 November 2021 10:17 (twelve hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This writer has really interesting/curious taste actually. Their list of hundreds of great albums has prompted me to finally check out Koopsta Knicca's 'Devil's Playground: Underground Solo'.

Last weekend I discussed with a friend the Sinatra-U2 post-show hangout session where to their surprise he band realized no one much talked to the old man about music. Apparently they delighted him asking those questions. He went into detail explaining Gene Krupa's drum sound, oboes vs bassoons, etc.

I've wanted booklength interviews with Madonna, Janet Jackson, and Taylor Swift like what Zollo did with Tom Petty.

Yeah, if there is one lesson to be learned from that recent Paul McCartney Rick Rubin show it's that even Paul McCartney has a lot more to reveal when asked the right questions.

I think it's tough for some of these superstars to navigate, because in many ways their privacy is a form of currency.

Also: how many journalists want to ask those questions?

I've cited these comments by bassist-to-the-stars Guy Pratt about Madonna's control during the "Like a Prayer" sessions:

"Jonathan, do less of the high-hat in the middle eight, and more of a fill towards the end. Guy, I want duck eggs [semibreves] on the end, and Chester, bring in your guitar on the second verse."

This writer has really interesting/curious taste actually. Their list of hundreds of great albums has prompted me to finally check out Koopsta Knicca's 'Devil's Playground: Underground Solo'.

― Tim F, Monday, 15 November 2021 22:34 (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I may seem antagonistic but this writer is someone I actually 'follow' on RYM owing to a superlative Richard Dawson review, and I shan't dismiss their Taytay raptures even if I mock them semi-fondly

As ever, I will actually listen to the new Swift and begrudgingly accept a measure of merit, even as I abhor the discourse. I really wish she wasn't a marketing genius

xxxpost - The problem is the journalists not the interviewees I think - none of the questions I'd want to ask would really touch on private lives.

If anything, Taylor typically disappoints on this front, because she basically undersells her own craft by offering simplified explanations ready for consumption by the broadest cross-section of fans possible.

Like, "Mirrorball" strikes me a really interesting dissection of the interrelationship between imposter syndrome and an anxious desire for public approval, but according to Taylor in the Long Pond Sessions it's about... not being able to tour.

Also making it clear that I only see Tim F as antagonist insofar as he consistently and eloquently speaks in favour of that which I halt at, and he is clearly a brilliant cornerstone of this entire website and its ethos. But then I am currently drunk, and would not admit so otherwise. EOYs without a Tim influence would not exist

I am *very* drunk. The beer was Belgian, and cheap

Oh god I'm interrupting. Best actually bloody listen to it

Don't many, if not most, artists favor basic answers to "What's that song about?," rather than go into a detailed literary analysis of their own lyrics?

I know some interviewers are skilled at insightful interviews with songwriters, but I think those results tend to be rare (on both ends)...

That Flanagan book is as terrific as Zollo's own book.

Don't many, if not most, artists favor basic answers to "What's that song about?," rather than go into a detailed literary analysis of their own lyrics?

I know some interviewers are skilled at insightful interviews with songwriters, but I think those results tend to be rare (on both ends)...

― heterologous booster (morrisp), Monday, 15 November 2021 23:05 (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yep - it's not really surprising, especially absent something asking really specific questions.

(and it's all good imago, enjoy the beer)

It's not so much just what each song is about, it's the nuts and bolts of it, the arrangement, the decisions made, the tempo picked, the previous iterations. All that stuff is super interesting and not always revealed. Like all those versions of Like a Rolling Stone that were eventually released. They nail the final version on the second or third take, but then just kept going, including that one version in waltz time. What made them realize the keeper was the keeper? In Taylor's case, I suppose I'd want to know her editing and refinement process, how different the final versions are from their origins. Stuff like that. Angles like this are why publications like Tape Op are invaluable. Where else are producers going to be interviewed about the tricks of the trade? Or even behind the scenes stuff. They've been witness to countless pivotal moments of history, but rarely is their opinion or experience the center of the discourse, and they have a lot to say. Same with session dudes: God only knows the stuff that Jim Keltner has seen, but where is that interview going to run besides Modern Drummer?

God only knows

I bet there are a few extant interviews concerning the recording of this song!

hosted by the right people, this general topic could make for an incredible podcast that surely (?) enough people would listen to

i realize i should want to read these conversations, but y'know ...

If that young man has Taylor’s scarf he should return it.

— Dionne Warwick (@dionnewarwick) November 15, 2021

lmao read the 1 star reviews on this

https://www.target.com/p/taylor-swift-red-taylor-39-s-version-target-exclusive-vinyl-4-lp/-/A-84294181

looool

Red (Jake's Version)

So it’s a 4LP set mastered at 45 rpm, when it could have(?) fit on 2 LPs at 33? Is that a sound quality thing, or a nefarious plot to ring up 2x the number of “discs” sold(?)

that's typically a sound quality thing i think?

I assume it's sound quality + they could fit the 16 album tracks on two discs and the bonus tracks on the other two. They would have needed 3 LP's anyway at 33, because it's over 2 hours long.

Man, I bet that vinyl sounds awesome

(when played at 45, lol)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ujcUumou9c

idk from experience i do not think taylor swift's team cares about vinyl pressing

the records of hers i have on vinyl sound extremely not awesome

And you would hide away and find your peace of mind
With some indie record that's pressed much better than mine

Well they sure care about CD sound quality (have I mentioned it sounds awesome?)

It occurred to me today that even after hearing, as ambience, "Blank Check" and "Wildest Dreams" and so on some thousands of times over the past seven years, I still so strongly associate Taylor with "You Belong With Me" and "Love Story" and "Fifteen" and all of Speak Now

And yet, "We Are Never Getting Back Together" is chronologically, at this point, mid-period-- six years after her debut, nine years ago.

"Blank Check" --> "Blank Space"? Ha ha (I like yr title, tho)

Ha lol whoops. I never listened to 1989 through Lover for pleasure, just research I guess

https://www.stereogum.com/2167771/taylor-swift-iheartradio-taylors-version/news/

“Whenever Taylor re-records a new track, we immediately replace the old versions. Our stations will always deliver songs that artists are eager to share and fans want to hear,” said Tom Poleman, Chief Programming Officer for iHeartMedia. “Listeners have made it known that they cannot wait to hear Taylor’s Version of each track. We are thrilled to provide a platform to share those with them, as well as the stories behind the songs from Taylor herself.”

She and iHeartRadio are pretty sympatico.

I find it annoying that the implied choice (not on ILM per se, just in general) is between caring about all the autobiographical detail and not being invested in the songwriting at all. One of the best aspects of the shift in her songwriting in the last two albums (especially on Evermore) is the sense that that binary is no longer applicable. "Ivy" and "Cowboy Like Me" are two of the very best songs she has ever written, and both clearly have nothing to do with her own life.

I was discussing with Brad a while back all the questions I wish TS would get asked in interviews, basically all of which would dig into her songwriting craft. A big question I had coming out of Evermore is whether she feels like, if she is writing from the POV of a fictional character, her lyrical vocabulary changes. Which of course she would never actually be asked by an interviewer.

― Tim F, Monday, November 15, 2021 4:10 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

otm

"Ronan" may be the saddest song I've ever heard.

it's been pretty funny/cute seeing my 12yo niece "discover" Taylor Swift

don't think she was really into music much before this

https://www.twitter.com/bloodbuzz/status/1460047771537494018

"Holy Ground" should've done better.

Agreed, but I feel like the really underrated deep cut on this album is “I Almost Do”, which I think is also secretly really sharp songwriting.

'state of grace' gotta be one of the most high energy pop album openers ever. always gets me revved. a little overlooked.

...only to be followed by such a clanger...

You don’t like the title track(?)

^ my vote in this poll, i believe