Explain Nas' Illmatic To Me

this is pretty much how i hear rakim, too, though.

(i've never really thought rakim was any more hot shit than any other hot shit rapper of his era. he could just go for longer without a breath.)

Uh, what were you expecting?

Nas' whole deal with illmatic was precisely that he was just this dude talking about not doing much, but dreaming about maybe living large and really just petty hustlin' at best to get by. And there's this romance to that "ghetto poet" image which projects an aura of authenticity and a feeling like "he's taking it to what hip-hop was about at the start" except of course he's taking it someplace new. And if everyone did this it would be really boring, but as a one-off it fuels and becomes a perfect componant of a "way it never was" backstory.

Mike Skinner seems poised to to an oddly similar thing, except he has a way better sense of humor and lyrical touch.

Here's Mike Skinner:

Has it come to this?
Original Pirate Material
Yer listening to the streets
Lock down your aerial
Make yerself at home
We got diesel or some of that homegrown
Sit back in yer throne, turn off yer phone
Cos this is our zone
Videos, televisions, 64's Playstations
We're paring with precision
Few herbs and a bit of Benson
But don't forger the Rizla,
Lean like the Tower of Pisa
Liza, I'll raise yer,
And this is the day in the life of a Geezer
For this ain't a club track
Pull out yer sack and sit back
Whether you white or black
Smoke weed, chase brown
Or toot rock
We're on a mission, support the cause
Sign a petition, summon all your wisdom
The Music's a gift from the Man on high
The Lord and his children
Triple teenyear rudeboys
Come rain or snow the boodah flows
You don't know?
Stand on the corner watch the show
Cos life moves slow
Sort yer shit out then roll
Sex, Drugs 'n' On The Dole
Some men rise, some men fall
I hear ya call, stand tall now

So: Short, simple rhyming couplets. No more than ten syllables per line. Few internal rhyme schemes. It's a static scene: Skinner and his audience are sitting around smoking drugs, listening to pirate radio and playing video games. United by these activities and their subsistence on the dole.

Now, Nas:

Rappers I monkey flip em with the funky rhythm I be kickin
Musician, inflictin composition
of pain I'm like Scarface sniffin cocaine
Holdin a M-16, see with the pen I'm extreme, now
Bulletholes left in my peepholes
I'm suited up in street clothes
Hand me a nine and I'll defeat foes
Y'all know my steelo with or without the airplay
I keep some E&J, sittin bent up in the stairway
Or either on the corner bettin Grants with the celo champs
Laughin at baseheads, tryin to sell some broken amps
G-Packs get off quick, forever niggaz talk shit
Remeniscing about the last time the Task Force flipped
Niggaz be runnin through the block shootin
Time to start the revolution, catch a body head for Houston
Once they caught us off guard, the Mac-10 was in the grass and
I ran like a cheetah with thoughts of an assassin
Pick the Mac up, told brothers, "Back up," the Mac spit
Lead was hittin niggaz one ran, I made him backflip
Heard a few chicks scream my arm shook, couldn't look
Gave another squeeze heard it click yo, my shit is stuck
Try to cock it, it wouldn't shoot now I'm in danger
Finally pulled it back and saw three bullets caught up in the chamber
So now I'm jetting to the building lobby
and it was filled with children probably couldn't see as high as I be
(So whatchu sayin?) It's like the game ain't the same
Got younger niggaz pullin the triggers bringing fame to they name
and claim some corners, crews without guns are goners
In broad daylight, stickup kids, they run up on us
Fo'-fives and gauges, Macs in fact
Same niggaz'll catch a back to back, snatchin yo' cracks in black
There was a snitch on the block gettin niggaz knocked
So hold your stash until the coke price drop
I know this crackhead, who said she gotta smoke nice rock
And if it's good she'll bring ya customers in measuring pots, but yo
You gotta slide on a vacation
Inside information keeps large niggaz erasin and they wives basin
It drops deep as it does in my breath
I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
Beyond the walls of intelligence, life is defined
I think of crime when I'm in a New York state of mind

So: Immediately, it's obvious that the rhythms are much more complex. There are five internal rhymes in the first two lines alone. Metaphorical equation between the gun and the pen sets the street poet theme. Halfway through, the metaphor is extended to the jungle. Around line 8, the narrative begins: After setting the scene of his everyday life in 6 lines (this takes Skinner his entire verse), Nas takes us through a gang shootout filled with tension (he kills someone, his gun gets jammed, he has to run), only to quickly pull back to set a larger picture: The kids who watch him run through the building lobby are half his height, but they'll be on the corners soon, if they aren't already. The game has changed, and in the final lines Nas goes on to sketch the basic details of selling cocaine, before finally summing it all up with the indelible line "I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death."

In other words, no contest! And that's without even mention the fat bassline Nas rolls over on this track and his pinpoint rhythms....

And hey, at least he has metaphors...

I step out my yard through the streets
In the dead heat
All i got's my spirit and my beats
I play fair don't cheat
And keep the gangster's sweet
Turn the page
Don't rip it out at your rage
Move to the next stage
Lock the rage inside the cage
Like SK, it's a new day
But don't take the shortcut through the subway
Its pay or play
These geeza's walk the gangway
Deep seeded urban decay
Deep seeded urban decay
Rip down posters alight from last week's big garage night
And the next Tyson fight
I cook 'em at 90 degrees farenheit
And don't copy the copyright
I got 'em in my sights
Blindin with the lights
Takin 'em to dizzy new heights
Blindin with the lights
Blindin with the lights
Dizzy new heights

The difference is that hundreds of rappers have followed in Nas' footsteps since he wrote that stuff. Nobody has followed Skinner. Naturally, he seems fresher.

It's not haphazard, either. Each part of the narrative leads naturally into the next.

And the "what does that quite mean" mentalism of "Don't take the shortcut through the subway" and besides the heat is really dead, not like a dead-heat finish to a race and he's not blinded BY the lights but he's "blindin with the lights" and etc.

Nas has a better sense of drama and a knack for a memorable phrase, Skinner has a sense of the mood of the moment and a subtle sense of humour.

The perjorative argument for why you might like the Streets and not Nas is that if you're not a confident person you may feel intimidated or alienated by an album which is basically a straight-up statement of self-belief and a determination to be somebody.

The even-handed argument would be that you're not a romantic and thus prefer your moments of drama to be periodically punctured during the course of an album so you know the artist sees the absurdity of what he's doing as much as you, the listener, do.

Personally I don't require Nas to be intelligent enough to do that, but it's a reasonable enough criticism if you're of that frame of mind...

Or the "his writing isn't good enough to make sense" mentalism...

Nabisco, I just don't see that as haphazard, I see it as him pinning each part of the rhyme down. First setting the stage, then moving into tight focus, then pulling back for the big picture. The obvious word is cinematic...

I think Nas is plenty intelligent enough to know the absurdity of what he's doing:

I'm the young city bandit, hold myself down singlehanded
For murder raps, I kick my thoughts alone, get remanded
Born alone, die alone, no crew to keep my crown or throne
I'm deep by sound alone, caved inside in a thousand miles from home
I need a new nigga, for this black cloud to follow
Cause while it's over me it's too dark to see tomorrow
Trying to maintain, I flip, fill the clip to the tip
Picturin my peeps, now the income make my heartbeat skip
And I'm amped up, they locked the champ up, even my brain's in handcuffs

"It's Yours"

I prefer Skinner cause I can relate more to Skinner, and (therefore?) his jokes make me laugh more. The great thing about his record is that he doesn't and can't present himself as a hustler or his locality as particularly dangerous - though quite reasonably he's always trying to avoid danger. There are 3 or 4 violent incidents through all of OPM - all minor incidents, not a gun in sight. This strikes me as an actually pretty realistic depiction of daily life - most of the record is in the pub, dicking about, chatting to mates, at home, smoking dope, with the occasional high point - off to Amsterdam wahey! - and low point (getting menaced or in a fight down the chip shop).

Nas conversely has cocaine in line 3 and an M-16 in line 4: again this is realistic but it strikes me Nas is dramatising key incidents not wallowing in the genuinely everday. Of course I've no idea what daily life for Nas is/was like.

I prefer Nas (on Illmatic; don't have much time for most of the rest) because his beats rock much harder, his flow is much tighter and his lyrics are much better. And also I'm tired of people hyping the Streets ;)

Sterling I like Illmatic cos I like the beats and the samples (not afraid to be obvious eg the Human Nature one) and the rhymes don't get in the way. And it's tight and short. I will listen again and try and work out more reasons why.

With Primo, Large Professor, and Pete Rock on the boards, Illmatic was the best produced album of that particular hip hop scene. If you don’t like the production of this album, I find it hard to believe you would’ve liked anything coming out of NYC in the early-mid 90’s

Nas’ lyrics are thematically complex. He oscillates between violence and harmony, dread and hope, love and hate. He displays hip hop machismo and vulnerability. He manages to capture the chaos of gang warfare without turning it into a cartoon. He may exaggerate, but it comes across as authentic. And, in addition, Nas’ lyrics are a near-perfect match for the beats.

Peep out these lyrics from “The World is Yours”:

I'm the young city bandit, hold myself down singlehanded
For murder raps, I kick my thoughts alone and get remanded
Born alone, die alone, no crew to keep my crown or throne
I'm deep by sound alone, caved inside a thousand miles from home
I need a new nigga for this black cloud to follow
Cuz while it's over me it's too dark to see tomorrow
Trying to maintain, I flip and fill the clip to the tip
Picturin’ my peeps, now the income make my heartbeat skip
And I'm amped up, they locked the champ up, even my brain's in handcuffs

I may be a bit biased, since i've loved this album for a long time, but i still think it stands up pretty well.

a) The lyrics. He introduced a new level of realism (exaggerated or not) to hip-hop. You already mentioned that a while back. "A feeling like 'he's taking it to what hip-hop was about at the start' except of course he's taking it someplace new" is exactly it.
b) The flow. Really, his rhymes are very tightly coiled. You could strip the beats away and still hear the rhythms.
c) The voice. He projects authority (also, to me, one of the reasons why Rakim was great) and he enunciates very clearly. Every word is hard and direct.
d) Production. It doesn't hurt to have a great setting to shine in. All the "great MCs" have had that, I think.

I mean, what more do you want?

once again, to restate:
his imagery is sharp.
his themes are complex and don't belittle the subject matter.
his flows sync with the beat
the rhymes and internal rhythms, at the time, were pretty revolutionary.
his analogies are sharp and fitting for the subject matter.
there's a hunger and authenticity in his voice. if you don't hear this, then you are one of few.

What I guess I'm missing from Nas is a sense of narrative flow, or any real relation between the stories he tells and the flow of his lyrics, or any sense that his stories have any distinct structure. Also anything not utterly conventional and boring in his rhythms.

Are "hunger" and "authenticity" anything like "soul"? coz I can't hear that either.

Also: a neophyte?

But leaving that aside, what is a "relation between the stories he tells and the flow of his lyrics"?

if you think busta just shouts we'll never see eye-to-eye on this.

Re: Nas' narrative structure. I'd argue that it isn't essential for a hip hop lyricist to present their stories in a linear, narrative fashion. Although there are those that do (and you mentioned a few of them), i think that it's perfectly acceptable for Nas' to paint a mosaic of his life and environment. Nas presents conflict, action, and possible resolutions. To my ears, Illmatic is nearly flawless.

also, i don't think that you're taking into account that illmatic was recorded ages ago (in relative hip hop ) and Nas pioneered many of the lyrical templates that you see as boring or conventional.

BTW, Nas' capacity for a linear narrative is one of the few things that improved after Illmatic, in my opinion.

On Illmatic, I just love the sound of his voice rolling down those samples. I'm not sure what's so striking about it, especially with all the different producers, which is usually the kiss of dud. Something about his blank stare in the lyrics gets you. Something about the Rakim-gray you find so boring: not cool, more just... cold. Sounds like a fall day in New York.

Always I'm in some shit, my abdomen is the clip
The barrel is my dick, uncircumcised
Pull my skin back and cock me, I bust off when they unlock me
Results of what happens to niggaz shock me
I see niggaz bleedin, runnin from me in fear, stunningly tears
fall down the eyes of these so-called tough guys, for years
I've been used in robberies, givin niggaz heart to follow me
Placin peoples in graves, funerals made cause I was sprayed
I was laid in a shelf, with a grenade
Met a wrecked-up tech with numbers on his chest that say
Five-two-oh-nine-three-eight-five and zero
Had a serial defaced, hopin one day, police would place
where he came from, a name or some sort of person to claim him
Tired of murderin, made him wanna be a plain gun
But yo I had some other plans, like the next time the beef is on
I make myself jam right in my owner's hand

(Chorus)

Yo, weeks went by and I'm surprised
Still stuck in the shelf with all the things that an outlaw hides
Besides me it's bullets, two vests and then a nine
There's a grenade in a box, and that tech that kept cryin
Cause he ain't been cleaned in a year, he's rusty as clear
He's bout to fall to pieces, cause of his murder career
Yo, I can hear somebody comin in, open the shelf
His eyes bubblin, he said, "It was on"
I felt his palm troubled him shakin
Somebody stomped him out, his dome was achin
He placed me on his waist, the moment I've been waitin
My creation was for blacks to kill blacks
It's gats like me that accidentally go off, makin niggaz memories
But this time, it's done intentionally
He walked me outside, saw this cat
Cocked me back, said, "Remember me?"
He pulled the trigger but I held on, it felt wrong
Knowing niggaz is waiting in hell for 'im
He squeezed harder, I didn't budge, sick of the blood
Sick of the thugs, sick of wrath of the next man's grudge
What the other kid did was pull out, no doubt
A newer me in better shape, before he lit out, he led the chase
My owner fell to the floor, his wig split so fast
I didn't know he was hit, it's over with
Heard mad niggaz screamin, niggaz runnin, cops is comin
Now I'm happy, until I felt somebody else grab me
Damn!

I put Illmatic on last night and decided I don't love it but I do like it. I like it because it's great background music - unless I'm concentrating hard I hardly notice Nas or the beats, it all meshes together too perfectly to engage with me but perfectly enough for me to never find the experience un-enjoyable. I think what Sterling(?) was saying upthread about it being the basic hip-hop album, like a re-founding of hip-hop, holds true. It's like if you asked somebody to imagine what generic "hip-hop" sounds like they might well think of something like Illmatic in the same way as someone asked what "jazz" sounds like might well think of Kind Of Blue. It's an album so strong it can stand for all albums - which is its advantage and disadvantage.

(Exception - those sing-songy choruses annoyed me this time.)

It's funny, but teachers actually are assigning out a lot of hip hop homework...

I'm getting visions of Nas doing a modified "I'm a little teapot" dance. Too cute.

Hip-hop is a culture obsessed with heroes, and whether they are the result of manufacturing or earnest hard work, they are rarely as immovable as they think. A culture whose music and approach assume a short attention span necessarily treats its stars the same way, and the debate about hip-hop's truly untouchable names would be a relatively short one. The days of Nas' undisputed spot atop that dawg-pile may be long gone, but he will always have his place in the discussion, not simply as a gifted lyricist, but as a prodigy.

Nas came into our world fully formed, first as a snot-nosed upstart who nonchalantly bragged that he "went to hell for snuffing Jesus" back when he was twelve, then as a twenty-year-old counting stacks with his partner AZ on "The Genesis," the weightily-named introduction to his debut, Illmatic. There are no moments of vulnerability on the album, no rags to put the riches of today in proper perspective. He arrives as a manchild in a broken land: a man because there is no childishness or uncertainty in his pose but a child because it is so obviously and precisely a pose and, as with many who inherit a precocious brain but a plain heart, he relies more on instinct and response than emotional certainty, conviction or stability. It was as though the questions one wrestles in youth (idealism, material, morality, "the future")-the mortal world-didn't matter, for Nas arrived immortal.

As such, Illmatic is fearless, shocking and literally unbelievable. There was a brazenness to Nas' "understandable smooth," Yeah-I-said-it delivery, a cool absence of thought or hope (maybe both), and whether he was indeed the journal or the journalist, there were few images as crisp and brags as cold as his. I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death. Cause I'm as ill as a convict who kills for phone time. I rap in front of more ni**az than on the slave ships. On "One Love," his description of an over-anxious, would-be young thug from around the way-"Shorty's laugh was cold-blooded as he spoke so foul/Only twelve trying to tell me that he liked my style/Then I rose, wiping the blunt's ash from my clothes/Then froze, only to blow the herb smoke through my nose"-wasn't just a dope rap lyric; it was an amazing piece of writing, regardless of age.

Through it all, Nas himself seems to seek very little in the exchange. If he is to be believed, he was already very rich, and though he would later try and refashion himself as a martyr-in-progress, on Illmatic he seemed too young and jaded to care much about any end, because in the end, nothing happens. Life's a bitch, as his song goes, but then what? Do you find redemption in ether? Philosophy? Do you pray for a merciful God? No. Life's a bitch and then you die, and the only thing Nas seems to believe in is the grace of falling. Religion clearly doesn't matter ("Cause yeah, we were beginners in the hood as five-percenters/But somethin' must of got in us cause all of us turned to sinners" from AZ's verse on "Life's a Bitch") and when Nas boasts that he "loves committin' sins" ("Represent"), you almost believe him.

Almost because there's still something behind Nas' eternally negative, harum-scarum worldview-not fear, but a dim consciousness of his own status as immortal. It is the belief that, though we may not live to see tomorrow, someone will. And, with history as our witness, we better seem pretty fucking fly to them. On Illmatic, Nas cared less about his place in God's eyes than his place in history, and history alone provided young Nas with a sense of salvation; a sense that the depravity surrounding him would one day be enshrined as the conditions for his genius. The album, like the man himself, excels because it is obsessed with the bright, fawning legacy that trails faithfully behind. He says as much on "Nas is Like," a song he wrote during the Illmatic sessions: "But what's it all worth? Can't take it with you under this Earth/Rich men died and tried, but none of it worked/They just rob your grave, I'd rather be alive and paid/Before my number's called, history's made."

There's something alluring and inevitably unsatisfying about seeing someone so nihilistic go about life, especially at such a young age. You can say you want to (or will) die before you get old, but those words feel cheap and flat when you live just cautious enough to survive well into your late-20s and early-30s. When you grow up against the anti-philosophy you lay out in the dim idealism of youth, you go from old school to old fool, and somewhere along the way, old Nas realized that he wanted redemption. He thought he would find it by earning the plaques and sales that he rightfully deserved, refashioning himself as a pretty thug and then again as the champion for the masses, finding solidarity with lesser cliques (Bravehearts, Murder Inc.) and beefing with Jay-Z, the man who took the best parts of Nas' blueprint and gave it both corporate and heartfelt dimensions. But nothing worked, and these muted expressions of fear only served to make Illmatic seem that much more unbelievable. As a kid, Nas didn't fear God; he just thought he was better, and he wanted people to know that tomorrow. Unfortunately that next day came, and the boy who was ahead of his time grew into a man forever captive to it.

Sterling - look, don't bully people into insisting why Illmatic is the shit. I'm not going to insult you if you don't believe it is but you seem to have this chip on your shoulder to dislike Illmatic to the point where you're ridiculing people's civil attempts at suggesting that maybe the album is actually pretty good.

Why not just chalk this up to "I'm not feeling it" and leave it at that? This complaint of yours that Nas' songs have no structural relationship between content and flow reminds me musicology students I've come across who seem more intent on dissecting the mechanics of a song rather than talk about their emotive affect. The two aren't mutually exclusive but one shouldn't need to justify either a like or dislike of a song or artist based on its structural qualities anymore than one should judge a painting solely based on its brush work.

YOU DON'T LIKE NAS. Ok, we heard you the first time, but goading people into proving you wrong is a waste of both people's time. You're clearly defiantly intractable in your position.

For the record - I'm not a huge Nas fan, mostly for many of the reasons Hua points out - dude has squandered his talents time and time again and I find Nas' acolytes to be a funny bunch of believers who continue to insist he can do no wrong despite having made a catalog's worth of shitty songs. That said, Illmatic is firmly planted on my top 10 list of all-time great hip-hop albums for all the reasons that people have already stated and if people disagree, that's cool with me.

Frankly, I'm not feeling the Streets and you know why? I can't hang with his accent and no amount of lyrical analysis can overcome that bias on my part. I guess now I'm being defiantly intractable. :)

--Oliver

The first thread on this board ever, back in 2000 (or late 99?) was Tom "provoking" ppl into defending emo.

This board has a long long history of exactly this sort of discussion, and its always been when it works out one of its strengths.

Sterling...where do you stand on Illmatic now? Has it changed for you?

i like illmatic a lot but it sounds old and soft to me. that lyrical style everyone says they like is all over the next seven albums. he's not perfect (five mics for stillmatic didn't make any sense because it kind of sucks), but lyrically, pretty much everything else he did kills illmatic badly. it's almost like people enjoy the philosophy or something of illmatic more than anything else or maybe the idea of it, the whole reactionary, tired dullness of it. like, "damn, why'd this guy hook up with hot producers and get hot rappers on his shit and step his lyrical game way up when he could have remade illmatic a million times???"

I'm not saying Nas is irredeemable but Jay-Z had it right - Nas' consistency is pretty far off, at least in my opinion, and the only people who really seem to go to bat for him (yourself excluded) are precisely kids who fell in love with Illmatic and keep desperately hoping that he comes back to that.

In other news, there are rumors that Columbia is planning on doing a remix version of "Illmatic." 10 producers for each of the 10 songs. Hot or not?

I like Hua's essay lots but it sorta misses the "uplift" side that ppl get from him which was there well before "I Can" and also I'm a bit skittish about the teleology reading Illmatic as a prophecy of future downfall or something. Something in nas' "there-i-said-it delivery" (great line) implies to some people at least, some sort of spiritual redemption in itself -- not quite the seamless valorization of a fall from grace. I've been listening to Illmatic less than ever, really and don't even think I've unpacked it after my move this summer. But I thought of Nas recently when I thought of the trying-too-hard-teen-poetry quality of the Pac verses on the Biggie duet.

Explain what is reactionary, tired and dull about Illmatic. Other than the fact that there is a consensus of opinion about it, which obviously bothers you.

it's still a great album and i love nas.

it's still a great album and i love nas.

It's great but it's dull? Say what?

And how are you drawing on the consensus dissenting opinion in your critcism of the "reactionary" consensus? I'm confused.

I like Illmatic very much. I also like early 90s hip-hop production style. I like old funk and soul music, and I like when producers sample it.

Dear fucking GOD. Kill me now. I don't want to live on the same earth as someone who can say this without feeling physically ill.

the hua hsu thing is the differentest thing i've ever seen written about it and most of the stuff he likes about it is all over the other albums, too.

I have read people saying that he never did anything as good as Illmatic, and that he went in a different direction musically because he wanted to sell more records. Is that what you mean?

I notice you're arguing that his lyrics got better. I haven't listened closely enough to tell. But what about the music? Did that get better? I don't think so, personally.

anyway what the fuck is "perspective" worth? this is mark s' point about how rockism fails on its OWN terms. If you value long-term critical perspective then you can't retreat to rad-subjective "i like it coz it makes me feel happy" simultaneously & what does it say that yr. leaping to assumptions about who heard what when anyway?

why does it make you feel euphoric? which lines do? what do they remind you of, how is the delivery especially effective? is it a euphoria like sniffing ether or like drinking red wine or like getting a backrub? what are you afraid of?

Besides what everyone else has said, the beats make me happy. I love the sound of the production, the way it all comes together. I love how Nas voice sounds, I love the lyrics because I can envision virtually everything he says, I love it because of its cinematic imagery, the darkness present in it, and I enjoy it because it is exquisite music. Frankly, I think the burden is on YOU to provide reasoning for why you hate it beyond this bizarre "I find it boring" argument.

It seems like you are just trying to be provacative here...I just plain enjoy listening to the album on its own terms. It is one of the few albums that I listen to with ANY regularity - the others being Organized Konfusion's "Stress" and Biggie's "Ready To Die" and Mingus' "Black Saint" and "Mingus x5" and Miles Davis' "Porgy and Bess" and "Astral Weeks" by V Morrison...I just plain LOVE listening to it; its as near to perfection as any music I have ever heard.

I didn't buy your argument either tho. Not because I don't think opinions formed over a period of time aren't likely to be more accurate and insightful--they are. But you have to back it up with some concrete detailed examples (which are notably absent from cloverlandthug's posts too).

So Skinner is over now? How quickly the hipsters move on.

Slow day at work today...

(ps there are no grounds on which to argue for a standpoint of "informed subjectivity" -- hell, maybe he listened to too much rap and it made him cynical and burnt out!)

ps there are no grounds on which to argue for a standpoint of "informed subjectivity"

I have no idea what this means.

re: grounds, the point is that there's no basis to argue that "informed" euphoria is any more valid than "uninformed" euphoria. if you want to argue about "quality" then you need other criteria than "my subjectivity is better than yours".

As long as people are still arguing about Illmatic, it holds its place in the quote-unquote canon.

If people start arguing about all the other albums, they might displace it.

Perhaps instead of asking us to defend Illmatic, he needs to better think out his argument against it other than "its just boring."

What exactly do you mean by "objective" criticism? You mean like Explain Why The Album Is Important? Cuz I can do that too. But ultimately the reason I like it is just because I find it more enjoyable than 99% of albums.

I am aware...I'm talking about Sterling. As was OWang.

Ben Williams' rundown is about as good of an 'objective' explanation as Sterling is gonna get:a) The lyrics. He introduced a new level of realism (exaggerated or not) to hip-hop. You already mentioned that a while back. "A feeling like 'he's taking it to what hip-hop was about at the start' except of course he's taking it someplace new" is exactly it.
b) The flow. Really, his rhymes are very tightly coiled. You could strip the beats away and still hear the rhythms.
c) The voice. He projects authority (also, to me, one of the reasons why Rakim was great) and he enunciates very clearly. Every word is hard and direct.
d) Production. It doesn't hurt to have a great setting to shine in. All the "great MCs" have had that, I think.

I respect that Clover thinks that Nas got better with age. I personally don't concur. "Illmatic" was, in my book, Nas' finest moment and if saying that makes me seen like the nostalgia new schooler ala "The Big Chill(in)" so be it. To me, Nas wasn't happy with respect, he wanted to sell more records and "It Was Written" was a calculated attempt at pushing himself towards a crossover audience that resulted in some very bad songs being made, "If I Ruled the World" being a stand-out in my book, though really, it's the production that really fell the fuck off.

As someone who enjoyed listening to Pete Rock, DJ Premier and Large Professor in their prime, "Illmatic" was the best of all possible worlds - once the Trackmasterz took over circa "It was Written", Nas' beats ceased to be that compelling. Their tracks sounded listless and generic - Nas didn't "own" them the way he owned something like "NY State of Mind" or "One Love" (despite the fact that other rappers have used the same Heath Bros. sample as Q-Tip did for "One Love"). I don't remember what "Street Dreams" sounded like and unfortunately, I do remember what "If I ruled the World" sounded like, though I wish I had a memory erase function for that particular song.

This isn't an authenticity issue. Rappers sell out all the time but the better ones do it in style. In my book, Nas doesn't rank with those guys (example: "LIfe After Death" was a calculated, crossover album too but Biggie still pulled some insane hits off that LP - "Hypnotize," "Ten Crack Commandments," "Kick in the Door," "Mo Money, Mo Problems," et. al. Apart from "God's Son", which I thought showed a lot more thought and focus that Nas' previous LPs, he can't really boast of having hit the same balance as Biggie and especially Jay-Z have shown.

this thread has made me think a lot about why i like it so much,so i may as well explain my reasons...

first of all,i really love the production...
this might be a debate for another thread,but i always find it weird when people refer to boring mid nineties premier beats,or whatever...
i mean,obviously hip hop production has moved on,but i don't see how that makes a difference...
the fact that i love mingus doesn't make ellington sound "played out" or whatever...
similarly,timbaland may have moved things on a lot,but i still hear stuff the rza did ten years ago that actually astounds me (recent example (for me)-the strings on that my man is going insane song off only built 4 cuban lynx fucking freaked me out,i was out for a joint before bed and it really sounded amazing,even after listening to a lot of other wu tang)

premier is no different,some his production on illmatic (and the stuff by other producers,whose names i dont know off hand) is amazing,the menacing bassline on new york state of mind,for example

maybe its just cause i live in ireland where hip hop culture is a lot less pervasive and i grew up listening to guitar music and only got into hip hop recently enough,but i dont think so...

i mean,i'm sure there are people who don't think,say,mcs act like they dont know is chunky as fuck,but in general if you're into hip hop i don't see how you can dismiss that type of production out of hand,and there are some excellent examples of it on illmatic...

as for nas himself,i can't figure out why i enjoy listening to him rap so much...i mean,he's not someone whose charisma and wit carries them through,like jay z,or someone who commands attention through sheer vocal presence and character like biggie,although he does have those attributes to a lesser extent...

whatever the technical judgement of it,the first verse of ny state of mind is like two and half minutes of relentless flow,with the bassline weaving around the lyrics,which are themselves tight as fuck...

a lot of people describe nas as humourless,which puzzles me...i mean,there is a lot of the kind of "street poet" posing on the album,granted,but at times he seems to me to be half poking fun at the bravvado in rap,or at least knowingly going along with it with tongue partially in cheek...the line mentioned in that article above,something like "catch me in the street with my hat turned back/love committing sins and my friends sell crack" always strikes me as at least a little knowing...
and as far as "i'm the baddest" style raps go,
"when i'm chillin' i grab the
buddha,
get my crew to buy beers,
and watch a flick,illin'
and root for the villain"
is fairly damn classic,and there's certainly more character and wit there than a lot of people would have you believe nas is capable of...
its also just a great way to start a track...
there's a rake of great lines like that,they may not look as good on paper,but nas deliver's them exceptionally well,sincere but with a wry smile at the same time,or at least it seems like that to me...

and within the context of a rap culture all about boasting about who is the "baddest"/most dangerous/etcetc,i don't see how you couldn't be
charmed by a line like "they call me nas i'm not your legal type of fella,moet drinking marijuana smoking street dweller"
he just bangs out these lines so effortlessly,i mean i know a lot of it is more "keep it real/street" focused,and some of the really dense,gritty verses are great too,but i think there is a degree of good natured,relaxed attitute to the album too...
maybe i just pick up on that cause i'm so removed from the circumstances,i dunno,but i do know that illmatic is one of the albums that really made me see what hip hop was about and accept it on its own terms...

now, looking at it again, i really see the "street poet" side but just like nas took rap "back" where it never was i think he did it with the notion of "poetry" too coz the lines scan to me like over-rhymed blank verse.

hip-hop is a social thing, a party thing, a crew thing, and nas is this romantic byron dude all alone (maybe the most alone rapper ever?) and rhyming like a romantic loner.

its another one of these puzzlers to me, those outliers that become the "canon".

so another question is how do you feel about nas when you listen to illmatic? do you identify with him, pity him, want to pick him up and cuddle him, want to be his soulmate, fear him, stand in awe?

he makes me feel more alienated from him than perhaps any other rapper, like there's this knee-jerk feeling i have "fine, you don't need me or my respect, you want to go commune with the lyrical plane or whatever, that's cool, do your own thing." like he doesn't talk about any emotions that i can recall having, even. nor do i *know* anybody who has emotions like his.

"I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death."

Did he actually invent that line? It sounds like one of the greatest movie quotes ever.

I like that Nas doesn't need me. I can identify with that. It's power.

But as Robin said, I don't think it's a very dark album. It's just a kid discovering his mic (hohoho). That was my main prob w/ the Hsu essay that revived this thread. I don't think it's that nihilistic, and in hip-hop nihilism is more of a genre convention than a statement anyways. The World Is Yours is just such a great happy hopeful song.

Dark shit.

Boy, "I Can" is a dece song, but it doesn't compare to Illmatic on any level.

Are you really into "positive" rap?

one thing that struck me when i got the album at first which i forgot to mention is how shit the chorus' are...its the only thing i don't like about the album,some of them are really annoying...

AZ's opening verse on Life's A Bitch is still as amazing as when I first heard it. I love AZ!

^

it's a tight, fantastic record that doesn't waste a second of space, unlike most hip hop records that i'm invariably turned off by. the lyrics are great and the delivery is one of the best i've ever heard from the genre.

that's just my 2 pence

Life's A Bitch is indeed one of if not my favorite rap track of all time, I think we can all agree on that. Whether you like the rest is opinion - I think some of it is under-produced and as far as albums go I think Mobb Deep topped it.

sterling clover, explain yourself jackass

Does that guy still post? I actually met him once - he lived (lives?) in Jersey City

the bitchslap was invented for that guy

I think some of it is under-produced

i was going to post 'ban humansuit' but i think we've gotten past that now or something

sterling clover, explain yourself jackass

-- am0n, Tuesday, 24 July 2007 03:13 (9 hours ago) Link

Does that guy still post? I actually met him once - he lived (lives?) in Jersey City

-- Hurting 2, Tuesday, 24 July 2007 03:14 (9 hours ago) Link

this explains so much

illmatic nas sounds almost like he's trying to sound like illmatic nas.

i have no idea what this could possibly even begin to mean.

but i love that o-dub showed up like 2 years late and went at dude hardcore.

i was going to post 'ban humansuit' but i think we've gotten past that now or something

? In the middle it bogs down, no question, and banning me won't change that.

the world is yours
halftime
memory lane
one love

which of these mid-album tracks 'bogs it down'? just curious

People were seriously trying to compare Nas and the Streets in 2002? "lyrical touch" wtf

i always hate it when albums get bogged down with super classic songs.

oh the streets! i remember when you changed the world. that was awesome.

Yeah big LOLs over Streets/Nas comparisons upthread. WTF.

I would have to pick The World Is Yours as the bogger out of those 4 but only cos I love the other 3.

haha, at last a 3-yr-old thread w/ contributions from me i'm not embarrassed of

I'll have to listen to Illmatic again and comment later - been a long time. But again I always felt that Mobb Deep really perfected what Nas started, although I love Illmatic. Comments?

i remember feeling overwhelmingly confused by the streets argument. like how folks feel when lex starts talking about ciara in a techno thread

nas made it a hot line, mike skinner made it a hot album about losing a thousand pounds in a television.
i see no problems with said comparison.

T/S: Lily Allen vs. Poor Righteous Teachers

holy shit this thread

the ben williams post comparing the 2 verses should have been the end of it

major lulz @ "Just this guy talking in rhythm for a long time"

ya rly

I'm just re-reading this and dude's degree of contrarianism is infuriating.

AZ's opening verse on Life's A Bitch is still as amazing as when I first heard it. I love AZ!

-- admrl, Monday, July 23, 2007 2:40 PM (Yesterday)

he sounds so good on this track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4TJyUwoPDw

I used to hustle, now all I do is relax and strive
When I was young, I was a fan of the Jackson 5

This is probably my favorite thing on the whole record. Couldn't tell you why.

as an MC, obviously Nas destroys Mike Skinner. however if you can't appreciate the obvious parallels between Illmatic and OPM....you must be american or something.

most underrated part of this thread: "plenty rhythmic complexity though granted not on lines which you need to cycle breathe to deliver." Sterling Clover in secretly bitter asthmatic shocker?

however if you can't appreciate the obvious parallels between Illmatic and OPM....you must be american or something.

I don't think me mocking the comparison of Skinner's "lyrical touch" with Nas's skill has anything to do with discounting the fact that both albums are narrative observations of their respective surroundings. Or with me being american.

Can I observe and acknowledge the parallels but not appreciate them, though? hah!

haha i chose the word carefully...but i don't disagree re: their respective skills, it's more the 'wtf these albums cannot be compared' response that i find bizarre. i mean, even the artwork!

OK, so here it is: NY State of Mind in particular has monotonous production, to a noticeable degree. This similarly happens in Halftime and Memory Lane, and One Love to some extent - in these songs, Nas' rhymes take center stage and the beats are just there to keep time - a lot. Life's A Bitch and Represent have such energy that it makes these tunes seem flat to me. I think that Nas's rhymes are really the focus. But again, if you check out Mobb Deep Infamous right alongside Illmatic, you can see that plenty was borrowed. But in terms of production it was also a quantum leap forward. As a result IMO, Illmatic may have been the first, but Infamous is the true classic.

BAN HUMANSUIT

sorry al

yeah man i dunno i love mobb but illmatic is one canonical album i'll go to the mat for anytime.

but at least yr dissing it in favor of mobb and not some UK b.s.

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0428,clover,55004,22.html

But I'm not dissing it at all. I simply think that it was an early album and that the production wasn't there at the time. It's something that I feel about a lot of early rap albums. Nas' raps are amongst the best that are on any album, certainly, but personally I simply am more inclined to like things that have a musical complexity to them. So, I love Outkast's Aquemini while I respect but can't get into 'It Takes a Nation' all that much. I'm not telling you you have to agree, but I'm giving you some kind of logical reason for the original poster's position. Why that should result in calls for a ban I'm not sure - do you want everyone simply to agree all the time?

I don't remember what "Street Dreams" sounded like and unfortunately, I do remember what "If I ruled the World" sounded like, though I wish I had a memory erase function for that particular song.

qft o-dub

^^^Totally true. so many people seem to love it tho! lauryn hill cred or something

i'm a big it was written apologist!

street dreams is awesome! jacking eurthymics a++!

i like i ruled the world too, but not quite as much. i kinda like the nas does bad boy jiggy type feel of those songs.

I Ruled the World gets pretty annoying on repeated listening. It hasn't aged well. But It Was Written does contain a lot of very nice hidden gems.

nas's joint with lauryn >>>> com's joint with lauryn

also, "street dreams" has the "all eyez on me" beat

'the message' is my joint

and that joint with mobb deep

p's verse on that is insane

everybodys verse

niggas thinkin shit sweet, i carry big heat
wavy hair chipped teeth, up in this bitch deep

Best track on the album? hmmmmmm

'the message' was definitely my favorite at the time, w/ the mafioso guitar or whatever that is.

according to wiki it's either neneh cherry or Sting(!)

* Contains sample from "Woman" by Neneh Cherry
* Contains sample from "Shape of My Heart" by Sting
* Contains sample from "N.Y. State of Mind" by Nas
* Contains sample from "Halftime" by Nas
* Contains sample from "Life's a Bitch" by Nas

What's either Neneh Cherry or Sting?

Oh, the guitar. That's Sting, first couple of notes of this clip, here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=locIxsfpgp4

i agree w fuckin sterling clover-- the only rsn illmatic is's got dopeness is maybe cuz ill will and his roots weren't so far removed, or it seems like it but you smoke 2 much grn.

nas was already straying from the path when this was in the works, wasn't he.

everybody's always like, 'this is lyrical', but i don't think it is consistently, and nas imagination seems boring, which is realized throughout his career while he said a lot while not many of the ideas are good

it has it's moments and whatnot, prismic metaphor, quintouple entendre and whatnot, but i no a crackhead with more lyricality than nas. plus he can sing.

this thread is extremely quaint in that it engages in lyrical analysis

god this thread

how is this not imaginative:

I rap for listeners blunt heads fly ladies and prisoners
Henessey holders and old school niggaz, then I be dissin a
unofficial that smoke woolie thai
I dropped out of Kooley High, gassed up by a cokehead cutie pie
Jungle survivor, fuck who's the liver
My man put the battery in my back, a differencem from Energizer
Sentence begins indented.. with formality
My duration's infinite, moneywise or physiology
Poetry, that's a part of me, retardedly bop
I drop the ancient manifested hip-hop, straight off the block
I reminisce on park jams, my man was shot for his sheep coat
Childhood lesson make me see him drop in my weed smoke

so many awesome internal rhymes, plus illusions to shearling coats, energizer bunnies, a dude getting shot, Kooley High, the phrase "retardedly bop" is just great....

allusions

never put me in your box if the shit eats tapes

You people! "If I Ruled the World" is Nas' second best song. (First rap song I memorized every word to, when I was ten. I felt very proud of myself for being able to figure out the removed words.)

Oh, and Illmatic is tremendous, but I got very tired of hearing about during my rap geek years.

If I ruled the world is not his second best song. But what is his best? Life's A Bitch, that's what. No?

Naw. "NY State of Mind"

the world is yours

Anyone, what's 'schweppervescence'?

http://www.lemonsqueezer.fr/images/works/schweppes/affiche-schweppes2.jpg

Before buying a Rap record, do you ever check out the lyrics on the net to find out if the rapper is worth supporting?

i bet J0hn D. does

It's the schweppervescence that makes the Pyramids shiny, you know.

am0n is right! lol I am a corny dude who cares about what he's listening to, imagine that

(though actually I usually buy first and then if it rubs me the wrong way, get rid of it)

another cog in america's selfish use+dispose culture

(though actually I usually buy first and then if it rubs me the wrong way, get rid of it)

-- J0hn D., Friday, October 19, 2007 1:57 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

no man, no problem

I actually don't check with rap that much - ever, really, now; when NoI stuff was informing more stuff, I didn't want to buy records where "Jew" was going to be a pejorative, and I still wouldn't if that stuff was around. But most of my bitch with rap lyrics is kinda finer-point stuff - stuff I do feel strongly about, but about which I can have honest disagreements with people but would still break break with them. I don't feel like it's a big deal to support a dude who at the end of the day may be saying stuff I disagree with but which is just his take on things, or his persona's take on things - not stuff I feel strongly shouldn't be supported. The only thing that makes me say "I don't want this guy to get my money" is, y'know, really virulent stuff: my bigger problems with that are with the metal I listen to, loads of those dudes are racist/nazi dudes; if it's corny to not want those guys to get paid on my dollar, them I'm gonna be plenty corny, because there are better uses for my money than for such dudes to get it.

most of my bitch with rap lyrics is kinda finer-point stuff

-- J0hn D., Friday, October 19, 2007 2:12 PM (8 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

It's just a subject of permanent interest for me that ilm, some indie rock dude will get called on the carpet for possibly harboring suspect racial opinions, while there'll seldom be much interest in 1) misogyny in music, period, but most especially for me in rap, where the word "bitch" (no less offensive to me when it's used by a man than its racial counterpart is when used by a white guy) is omnipresent or 2) the virulent and usually open homophobia that's threaded through much of rap

-- Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:38 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

lol hypocrite

jesus christ ethan do you have a shrine in yr room or something? I could get you some press pix for that if you need 'em

I would consider both the misogyny & homophobia that's prevalent a finer-point issue - it bugs the shit out of me, but it's not The Ideological Heart of the stuff or anything

I know this is hard for you to understand though, since you use words like "bitch" and "faggot" pretty freely elsewhere

sorry to ruin your fantasy but i didnt really have to dig that deep to find one of the threads you spent 200 posts calling me a misogynist

i do enjoy saying bitch & faggot though

But most of my bitch with rap lyrics...

fyi my point is that you said bitch just now even tho youve spent the last 3 years as a shrill finger-wagger about how anyone who even thinks the word is an irredeemable woman-hater

xp w/ amon

are you guys even serious

i wasn't saying it was corny, i just figured if anyone looked up rap lyrics for that reason it would be you based on what you've said in the past

c'mon, J0hn, you easily could have said "most of my wife with rap lyrics" instead and noone would've been offended.

lol

when you guys get to junior-year english or something they'll explain how parts of speech work, be careful, it'll blow yr minds

xpost Alex point taken

at least we can agree its a good thing he didn't say 'female'

'hey i didn't say you were a nigger, i said your couch is nigger-black - learn about parts of speech, dummy!'

the word "bitch" (no less offensive to me when it's used by a man than its racial counterpart is when used by a white guy)

ethan this is some weak stuff by your standards - bitch as abusive epithet, offensive. bitch to mean "complaint" doesn't bother me at all. Maybe all these records that bug me are actualy guys addressing & personifying their complaints about stuff, not actually calling women "bitches"! my bad then man

"a complaint iz a complaint"

in other news ethan did you know I'm vegetarian, yet can use the word "beef"? mindblowing shit huh

Explain Nas' "N-Word" To Me

why is it ok for guys to 'personify' their complaints with an inexcusably offensive & abusive term for women?

My thread was posted in here and it started something.

I don't think you understood the sentence ethan

That Ethan manages to troll all the J0hn D. ppl so successfully is kind Madonna-In-Her-Primesque from where I sit.

in other news, when I go to England and they call cigarettes "fags," it doesn't even bother me a little

in the spirit of john's explanation i will now refer to my general complaints about rap as 'gooks'

in other news, when I go to England and they call cigarettes "fags," it doesn't even bother me a little

-- J0hn D., Friday, October 19, 2007 2:42 PM (50 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

cf

The word "fag" is a contraction of the word "faggot" (or, "fagot"). When traced through its etymological history, the word "faggot" simply means "a bundle of sticks used as fuel." See dictionary.com and thesaurus.com (where such words as "fuel" and "brimstone" are used as synonyms). "Scholars" can't decide when such a word began to be used in reference to homosexuals, so we'll give the answer here: "I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord." Amos 4:11. The word translated "firebrand" is the Hebrew word "uwd," which comes from a Hebrew verb meaning "to rake together" (or, "to gather together"). In short, the Hebrew word "uwd" is talking about burning sticks of wood that are gathered together. That is what the English word "faggot" means. Amos 4:11 could just as easily be translated "...ye were as a faggot plucked out of the burning..."

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html

"99 Problems" to thread

http://www.noveltyid.us/ged_diploma_general_equivalency.jpg

how does this still happen once every two weeks?

do you really think the term 'bitch' meaning complain has as little to do with your much-hated abusive epithet 'bitch' as the british word for cigarette has to do with 'faggot'?

"Bitchin' Camaro" to thread

yes very good Ethan, try this one:

Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
bitch
O.E. bicce, probably from O.N. bikkjuna "female of the dog" (also fox, wolf, and occasionally other beasts), of unknown origin. Grimm derives the O.N. word from Lapp pittja, but OED notes that "the converse is equally possible." As a term of contempt applied to women, it dates from c.1400; of a man, c.1500, playfully, in the sense of "dog." In modern (1990s, originally black English) slang, its use with ref. to a man is sexually contemptuous, from the "woman" insult.

"BITCH. A she dog, or doggess; the most offensive appellation that can be given to an English woman, even more provoking than that of whore." ["Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue," 1811]

The adj. bitchy "bad-tempered" (usually of females) is first attested 1925. The verb meaning "to complain" is at least from 1930, perhaps from the sense in bitchy, perhaps influenced by the verb meaning "to bungle, spoil," which is 1823. But bitched in this sense seems to echo M.E. bicched "cursed, bad," a general term of opprobrium (e.g. Chaucer's bicched bones "(unlucky) dice"), which despite the hesitation of OED, seems certainly to be a derivative of bitch. Insult son of a bitch is O.N. bikkju-sonr. Slang bitchen "good" is first attested 1950s. Bitch-goddess coined 1906 by William James; the original one was success.

also, if you check any actual dictionary, you'll note an "offensive" next to some usages, while not next to others - see it? it's actually not that hard to understand

what about next to the word 'female'?

Wonda Why They Call U Bicce

Bitch-goddess coined 1906 by William James; the original one was success.

Someone please explain this.

you really got a bee in yr bonnet about that'n ain'tcha E

beeyatch in your bonnet

ok that made me giggle

saying that "bitch" as complaint != "bitch" as woman is about as weak as say "gay" as "lame" != "gay" as "homosexual"

well just from my perspective "female" is how one describes livestock, pets, etc. - people are women and men, and I think calling women "females" is a bit on the dehumanizing side - 'Pac does/did it all the time and it always bugged me

-- Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, May 11, 2006 4:27 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

Wish I hadn't asked now.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/c/cc/180px-Mr-Brains-Faggots-Pack.jpg

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/1003/50210510.JPG

giggle
1509, probably imitative.

titter (v.)
1619, "giggle in a suppressed or covert way," probably of imitative origin. The noun is first recorded 1728.

"doe" is how one describes a deer

a female deer

really a female deer

calling it a "female" deer is pretty offensive

yeah that's my feeling ethan - I mean, when people use "female" but not "male" it strikes me as weird

xpost I actually have one of those carboard covers from Mr. Brain's Pork Faggots because when Beer Frame covered it it gave me the giggles for weeks

Ethan does being mad at shit I say give you an ulcer? I got a line in on some Nexium if you need it

female deer boy fresh

I believe you mean poppin' fresh female deer, am0n

i've heard italians use "fino" as pejorative slang; "fino" means "homo" because a finocchiona is a particularly large type of dry sausage (w/ fennel)

in america though, sausage has straight connotations, cf "a sausage fest" (see also ILX), whereas "fruit" has queer connotations, cf "buncha fruits"

(w/ fennel)

the idea that Ethan needs to actually be passionately angry or upset at someone to endless antagonize them over trivial shit is really funny.

endlessly

i mean i have no proof, i'm just guessing that the guy here taking the bait, over and over and over, has higher blood pressure right now than the one doing the baiting.

there are also large dry sausages where the primary flavor is cracked pepper (genoa style salami) or garlic (milano style salami) or red pepper (pepperoni!), why fennel sausage is the "gay" sausage i don't know

which makes the baiter the better man

Ethan has a sign on his bedroom door that says "GO AWAY. BAITIN'."

I am an older brother, I'm hardwired to respond to this kinda stuff

i mean i have no proof, i'm just guessing that the guy here taking the bait, over and over and over, has higher blood pressure right now than the one doing the baiting.

-- Alex in Baltimore, Friday, October 19, 2007 7:09 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i think this fight and all future ones should be determined by cholesterol tests.

haha on a message board?? i like my odds

i've heard italians use "fino" as pejorative slang; "fino" means "homo" because a finocchiona is a particularly large type of dry sausage (w/ fennel)

It's just from "finocchio", which means "fennel": fennel is seen as unmanly in Italy. Qf Don Vito slapping the shit out of Johnny Fontane in The Godfather.

I will own all at the physical!! I seem excitable but my standing B/P is 90/70 (prob. 100/80 these days now that I weigh more), I am the zen master of simmering rage

the vegetarian's all smug now, but you'll be awfully lonely when there's noone left to zing you after the rest of us all have heart attacks

mine is kinda high, my wife is all don't eat wendy's 3 times a week, i'm trying. i stay skinny no matter what so i eat like shit.

i won't bore you with the life expectancy stats of a competitive hot pepper eating contest professional, but i'll just say that i don't plan on living to see any of my kids graduate high school

a competitive hot pepper eating contest professional

wait really? for real?

if so, I can only say "bitchin'"

damn alex that's gangsta

lol no. also i have no kids.

if someone tells me of any nearby contests i'd totally enter, though.

my disappointment is total

i thought i was going to learn something exciting about alex in baltimore but no

here I can help with the trivia there

*he's from Baltimore

*loves Killing Joke

i should start fabricating stuff just to see what makes it into jaymc's xls

*just wrote a sentence I didn't understand at all

Pyramids are oh so shiny female deer are oh so cute

"female" is a non-starter as a descriptor for deer and you know it

But if this point is that he's a hypocrite because he said all rap that uses the word "bitch" is worthless, isn't this point moot because he did NOT say this? He said that he was able to separate a view, or use of offensive language used by a rapper or a character in a rap song from the ideological heart of the song.

http://www.chocosho.com/admin/images/285x380/79625_vertical_1_egyptian_lover__mens_vertic.jpg

lol I am a corny dude who cares about what he's listening to, imagine that

I love how J0hn's own dictionarial evidence support's Ethan's point.

be sure to use your dictionarial when you post

poor Rev can't get a bite

Can we just hire some sort of third party, free lance ninja associate, "the word ninjas" to drop from the ceiling and kidnap anyone who makes a grammatical mistake? This would save us all a lot of time.

He said that he was able to separate a view, or use of offensive language used by a rapper or a character in a rap song from the ideological heart of the song.

-- filthy dylan, Friday, October 19, 2007 3:54 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

where did john say this? from the ridiculous 'female' thread:

utter bullshit. and there isn't a "female answer record for every sexist jam" - all the fucking jams are sexist! fuckin' ALL of them! calling women "bitches" is sexist, period, just like whites using the N-word is racist whether they mean any harm by it or not - that you're desensitized to it (or don't give a shit about about women's cultural or subcultural status) doesn't mean it's all a-ok

-- Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, May 11, 2006 12:51 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

Life is a bitch and then you die
still tryin' to get a piece of the apple pie

xxp

http://dan.friml.com/cds/Images/112.jpg

For a second, I thought filthy dylan's post was on some Breihan shit.

now that's the kinda trolling I like Ethan

For a second, I thought filthy dylan's post was on some Breihan shit.

-- The Reverend, Friday, 19 October 2007 20:09 (1 minute ago) Link

i was gonna say... maybe we should hire pirates or something instead

Hey guys can we talk about this bullshit

or maybe the new ghostface song.

nas's quotes about it someone posted a link to on the snap thread were on point.

Explain Nas' "N-Word" To Me

-- am0n, Friday, October 19, 2007 2:33 PM (1 hour ago)

that fox news interview asdfsdaf;jlk

I don't understand why people continue to go onto Fox News to defend hiphop, when they know that trying to beat through the cheap rhetorical tactics is an erroneous uphill battle.

rly

allhiphop was involved. logic doesn't apply here.

My first just went through the screen.

fist I mean.

what's wrong w/allhiphop?

'BUT NOW ONE WORLD-FAMOUS RAPPER IS DETERMINED TO KEEP IT ALIVE'

Explain Nas' "N-Word" To Me

-- am0n, Friday, October 19, 2007 2:33 PM (1 hour ago)

-- am0n, Friday, October 19, 2007 8:33 PM

“Whether you in the NAACP or you Jesse Jackson, I respect all of them, I just want them to know: Never fall victim to Fox. Never fall victim to the sh– they do. What they do is try to hurry up and get you on the phone and try to get you to talk about something you might not know about yet.

“If Cornell West was making an album called Nigger, they would know he’s got something intellectual to say,” Nas continued. “To think I’m gonna say something that’s not intellectual is calling me a nigger, and to be called a nigger by Jesse Jackson and the NAACP is counterproductive, counter-revolutionary.”

That fox news made me think of the fox style debate they would have on the Beatles.

"What makes this Paul McCartney character such a genius? He advocates killing a man with a silver hammer!"

that chick quoting nas made me lol

lmao
xpost

My first just went through the screen.

-- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Friday, October 19, 2007 8:38 PM

uno

that chick quoting nas made me lol

-- M@tt He1ges0n, Friday, October 19, 2007 8:40 PM

that actually upset me the most

allhiphop's a glorified rap tmz. no surprise that they got roped into the fox news v. rap clusterfuck.

I don't know how you put up with that shit. I've never seen Fox News before--I always assumed it couldn't be as bad as people made out. I mean, we have the Murdoch owned Sky News in the UK, but it has NOTHING approaching the level of reactionary bullshit that was in that one interview.

My firstborn just went through the screen.

must have been some great porn.

My co-worker complains virulently about me listening to the BBC news every night while always wanting to talk to me about such and such (unnervingly often a crime perpetrated by a black man) he saw on FOX news.

xp: haha

couldn't stop lol'ing when the guy said "Chuck, where's the outrage?" and the screen said "Where is the outrage?" - this has been a standard Fox/righty-blog baiting tactic for years and is always good for laffs

"erroneous uphill battle"
"complains virulently"

-- Cornell West

man that fox news bit was bulllllllllllllllllllllllllshhhhittt wow

i know fox news pulls this kind of shit all the time but it still got to me

CornYe West

they're always like that on practically every topic though! greatest IRL trolls of all time, there are none higher

haha

otm about them being irl trulz

*reps cambridge*

this is the whitest shit ive ever read about hiphop music in my life.

"pipecock"

Actually, the only white people who posted in this thread are Sterling Clover, J0hn D., & and what.

wau that video makes me glad I didn't decide to ironically buy a hat from the Fox News store in the Houston airport earlier today

itt lolz

s-clo with the challenges.

c'mon, J0hn, you easily could have said "most of my wife with rap lyrics" instead and noone would've been offended.

-- Alex in Baltimore, Friday, October 19, 2007 2:27 PM (6 months ago)

Wait, isn't this the thread where Sterling offers up Vybz Kartel and Lil Kim as G.O.A.T. rappers?

man people were really trying to say the streets>nas five years ago?

People were seriously trying to compare Nas and the Streets in 2002? "lyrical touch" wtf

-- mh, Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:36 PM (8 months ago) Bookmark Link

man people were really trying to say the streets>nas five years ago?

-- J0rdan S., Sunday, 20 April 2008 21:16 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

ITT, Jordan S discovers how popism approached rap.

You can also read around and discover how "Get Yr Freak On" is the best rap single ever, and how the opening lines of "The Real Slim Shady" approach a level of depth never seen in hip-hop before.

this is the whitest shit ive ever read about hiphop music in my life.

-- pipecock, Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:22 PM (Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:22 PM) Bookmark Link

shit pipecock approaching otm status what has this world come to

amazed he didn't add 'yo' or something.

Wonda Why They Call U Bicce

-- am0n, Friday, October 19, 2007 2:51 PM (6 months ago)

you have to see the pain in his eyes for the rhymes to work

-- s trife (simon_tr), Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:02 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Link

this is like a luriqua post

without this thread, I never would have known that fennel is the gay spice

subject matter is cliche. slang/wordplay is cliche. Nas's no-dynamic, no emotion, mono-rap does not fit the subject matter. It's like listening to a nerdy ass B+ student telling me how gangster he is.
the production is fine, and the overall sound is fine. I will always give it a 7/10, and do not get annoyed when it gets played. Fans get annoyed when you say 'overrated,' because they hear 'sucks'

it's a good day to challop

lifes a bitch, then you sb

without this thread, I never would have known that fennel is the gay spice

― milo z, Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:22 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I don't think even dj premier could save ilm's cliches

my favorite ilm cliche: "fennel is the gay spice"

SB is the cousin of death iirc

sneak an sb on the island in my army jacket lining

so tired of this cliche subject matter

never sb in a crowd
catch him solo
make the right man bleed

51 times for your mind

I actually just sat and read through this whole thread, and it was pretty entertaining.

lol @ "51 times for your mind"

illmatic nas rap ill hip hop hip-hop new york cool stillmatic jay-z nyc awesome sick nasir jones tight album music dope amazing genre classic nasty queensbridge hiphop best album fresh the best herb best chill reasonable doubt

51 love

i love sterlclov's writing and this was a cool attempt to drag out of people why they like illmatic so much. i still don't quite get the love for it, either. 1. nas gets way way way better. 2. so many other people do what he does on illmatic better than nas on illmatic.

Eh I was just reading the lyrics to one love and thinking about how great they are - then I rose wiped the blunt ash from my clothes etc. who did that better?

51 times for your mind

― lebroner (D-40), Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:30 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

some hall of fame trolling in this thread

It's the best type of trolling - the posts about why Nas is so much better than, erm, Mike Skinner are great, and wouldn't be here without someone playing devil's advocate.

mike skinner vs nas is very wtf/lol.

not read the whole thread but memory lane i think would make it obvious how brilliant nas was as a rapper. its dense, endless, but despite ppl saying hes monotone, quite sonorous, and the interlocking rhyming (im drawing a blank on a better way to put it) is maybe his best rap performance?

if you dont like that era/sound/style/region of rap, then i can see why someone wouldnt like illmatic, but if you do, its very weird.

Just this guy talking in rhythm for a long time

Original OED definition of hip hop.

lifes a bitch, then you sb

lol

Listening to a lot of EPMD recently and reading some of the negatives upthread both made me think that solid can be an underrated quality in hip hop. It's easy to be dazzled by (and sometimes overrate?) elaborate rhymes, dramatic concepts, big personalities, unexpected samples, etc - and I love all that - but Illmatic, like Strictly Business, represents something fundamental about why I listen to hip hop. It's just super-consistent: great rhymes, great beats, thematic focus. He sounds like he knows exactly what he's doing. There's a sense of complete mastery. I guess how I can see how some people would find that limited or dull or "capable" rather than inspiring, but those people are wrong.

To clarify, I think Illmatic's rhyming is way more inspired than EPMD's - but some of the earlier criticisms put in it that same category of "hip hop that sounds exactly like how you'd expect hip hop to sound".

yeah i think the general the dazzle/poppier/post-gangsta-jugular values of idk, post-late 90s rap has meant that illmatic prob does seem 'boring' now to a lot of people. i miss there being more 'solid' rap albums.

The first third of this thread is a totally classic, textbook example of early-noughties popism, and if you think it's just this guy talking in kneejerk reactions against "soul" and "authenticity" for a long time, I don't know what to say to you.

The first third of this thread is a totally classic, textbook example of early-noughties popism

Not really.

The first third of this thread is a totally classic, textbook example of early-noughties popism clothearism

Oops

The first third of this thread is a totally classic, textbook example of early-noughties popism clothearism

The goalposts have shifted a bit since then - Nas would've been on the popist side of the fence with Company Flow and Cannibal Ox and whoever on the other side.

its a textbook example of people preferring non boom bap hip hop and its various offshoots (the streets, non american mc-ing) to classicist boom bap rap, and also rappers that are self aware (people that dont like hip hop LOVE this quality in their rap) and self-puncturing to rappers that dont do that as well, it would puncture the wholeness/earnestness/for-real-ness of what theyre saying/their persona

subject matter is cliche. slang/wordplay is cliche.

ummm... wanna explain this? like give one example?

Nas's no-dynamic, no emotion, mono-rap does not fit the subject matter.

lol wut

you sure you didn't pick up port of miami instead

i blame ilm for the streets. shame on you.

you know who you are.

also textbook example of (8 Years Ago) on ILM.

To me, the lack of piano samples in post-90s hip hop makes it feel way cheaper and more boring.

sometimes i'll listen to a post-illmatic nas track on youtube and i'm like dooooood you had to have known how lame and lazy that beat was. what were you thinking? beatnuts could have sold you a cool beat for a bag of weed.

xp "subject matter is cliche" is something you could say about most classic hip hop records. "You're rapping about how good you are at rapping/how tough it is on the streets/how you and your friends have firearms? Boring!" Missing the point imo.

yah its like metal. what's with all the blood and fire imagery?

What I'm getting at with early 00s popism is that it wasn't really valourising pop over all else (in this case preferring The Streets to Illmatic) but actually a spirit of open-mindedness fuelled by suddenly having easy access to so much music. The only things that were actively shunned were things that looked down on the mainstream - so undie rap and some post-Strokes rock bands - but people were mostly fine with Nas.

So suddenly there were all these dilettantes trying to get to grips with a lot of music at once and sometimes just not getting it and trying to tease out why as opposed to immediately defining themselves against something and using it as an example of why everyone who liked it was an idiot.

Matt, doesn't Nasluv = rockism in this analogy? I don't quite see how he'd be on the popist side... It's really funny to me to read Sterling trying to rile people up and stoke a discussion (which I think is fun and good), and at the same time using discourse-murdering words like "boring" and "interesting", not to mention "just this guy talking in rhythm for a long time" (!)... How do you come back to that?! It's as true as saying, e.g., Saxophone Colossus by Sonny Rollins is "just this dude blowing into a horn for a long time"--which, interestingly, was a record I felt that about years ago, when I needed my jazz to have firemusic explosions or Macero edits or "mystery" and "difficulty"... And just because it's hard to articulate why something strikes you as profound doesn't mean profundity is a useless concept.

Matt, I totally agree with your above post w/r/t popism prizing a spirit of openmindedness, but in my estimation a thread like this shows how some could take popism and make it as dogmatic and antagonistic in its discursive employment as the rockism it rejected.

sterling was thinking out loud. in public. which is fine. he has a genuine curiousity for stuff. and sometimes you just don't get what other people are getting. happens to me all the time. it helps to REALLY listen to stuff over and over though. and think about it. and not be instantly dismissive. if you think something is important to a lot of other people and you want to know why.

Matt, doesn't Nasluv = rockism in this analogy?

It does now *maybe*, but then Illmatic's position in the canon has hardened considerably since this thread was started. But really virtually ALL hip-hop except really self-conscious nerdy/undie was at least open to claiming by the pro-pop consensus (partly because rock critics had been so sniffy about it for so long). Same way that ILM/FT dancelove could happily encompass both Basement Jaxx and Jan Jelinek.

ummm illmatic is in no way cliche in its subject matter. it wasn't released yesterday, the cliches were made from this, g rap, ' the infamous' and biggie.

What's that famous Parker quote about first learning the music, then learning the instrument, then forgetting all that shit and just playing? Maybe listening works like that too: learn the records, learn the discourse, then forget all that shit and just listen. Not that people should forget the discourse... But Scott, I agree with your "it helps to REALLY listen to stuff over and over thought. and think about it. and not be instantly dismissive"... I used to have this notion that being an open-minded listener involved turning certain things "off" and relaxing and "opening the receptors" and what not, when it actually is a hell of a lot of hard work rather than some passive Zenlike state of total receptivity!

(also schooly d and ice t and a couple others, my bad.)

actually fuck it illmatic doesn't sound cliche in subject matter or wordplay even compared to the near twenty years that came after it and tried to bite it wholesale

there are things that i definitely work at. and then there are other things that i dismiss in, like, a minute cuz i just know that no amount of deep listening will work for me. but not everything is immediate. and lots of people are really big on immediate.

illmatic sounds great! i bought one of those expanded anniversary editions a year or two ago and i played it for months.

Matt, I totally agree with your above post w/r/t popism prizing a spirit of openmindedness, but in my estimation a thread like this shows how some could take popism and make it as dogmatic and antagonistic in its discursive employment as the rockism it rejected.

― Clarke B., Monday, June 6, 2011 4:05 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

otm

the thing that frustrated me itt was that it seemed like the 'canon' being rejected wasnt something ppl defaulted to on ilx at the time, so instead of challenging ppl's opinions it was in fact reinforcing the board's existing prejudices about rap that came out pre-late 90s pop rap

fwiw i think illmatic's canonical influence is p annoying these days, shit is the bob marley's legend of rap music

gotta admit even years later kinda bugs me when people drag out rakim's weary bones to make a point.

a thread like this shows how some could take popism and make it as dogmatic and antagonistic in its discursive employment as the rockism it rejected.

I find this about a lot of 00-02 threads when they're revived. They annoyed me less at the time, so maybe I found "Canon pick x is boooring" a more refreshing stance back then (and there are examples way more antagonistic than this one - I think deej is wrong to say it was limited to rap). I guess it was a necessary process but if I must read early 00s popism than I prefer Tom's intense reasonableness.

Then, not than, dammit.

was this the thread where rakim was compared to satriani

fwiw imo nas stans in 2011 are worse than illmatic stans.

You also have to remember the board was predominantly British back then and "the canon" had been very heavily reinforced by mainstream British rockpress for several years and, by and large, it excluded pretty much *all* rap bar a Public Enemy album here and there and maybe a bit of of lipservice towards The Message or Paid In Full.

90's stuff that has been blowing my mind the last couple of weeks:

diamond shell - the grand imperial diamond shell (cold chillin' - 1991) (biz markie producing)

no i.d. - accept your own & be yourself (the black album) (relativity - 1997)

the a.t.e.e.m. - a hero ain't nuthin' but a sandwich (select street - 1992) (trakmasterz prod.)

saafirs first album should be up there with illmatic imo

"I think deej is wrong to say it was limited to rap"

this is true. van morrison: name your reasons why he is so bad and hated, etc, etc.

or the ten thousand metal threads on here now as opposed to some 2001 "do you like any metal?" threads where the answers are "eh, like a bit of it but most is shite innit?"

didnt mean to imply it was limited to rap, just that this was how i experienced it here

just pointing out that there is enough rong to go around for everyone.

Metal's about as dilettante-unfriendly as genres get though - it always gets short shrift from people who aren't really into it while there's more of a general willingness to engage with rap.

The biggest difference between early ILM and ILM now is the sheer number of people who really know a genre inside out rather than splitting it into "indie" and "everything else".

Good point about genre knowledge on ILM nowadays, Matt. I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that we've all been able to access and digest about 1000X more music between ILM's early days and 2011 than most of us had in our lives up until ILM's early days.

I am basically defending the right to get things hilariously or annoyingly rong, it can throw up more intertsting perspectives than the kind of faintly dispiriting consensus you see on some rolling threads.

I think there may have been a point on ILM (and the internet in general) where the impulse to "get this hilariously and annoyingly rong" wasn't exactly hardened into trolling yet.

Feeling this remix more than the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQyiqpG2AcE

xpost

Or maybe not... I don't know.
Illmatic was what - 10 years old? - when this thread was started, and probably held in even higher regard then than it is now. So the guy who started the thread clearly was out to push some buttons... is this straight-ahead trlling? I mean it's hard to believe anyone hears Illmatic and seriously thinks "I don't hear anything special here, explain this". It's one of the more self-evidently good records I can think of, even if it wasn't your thing, you'd be able to figure out why people like it without stretching that hard... I don't know.

anyway, thanks thread revival - just listened to halftime for the first time on a few years

There's no such thing as a "self-evidently good record" - have you seriously never been underwhelmed by a "classic" album? Asking "Explain the appeal of this record" and "What am I missing?" is not straight trolling, unless the bar for trolling has been significantly lowered.

ok fuck the suggest banners itt, ilm would have perished a long time ago if everyone was this consensus-minded

(also schooly d and ice t and a couple others, my bad.)

― WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Monday, June 6, 2011 5:13 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

damn son you should teach rap somewhere

iirc its the way the thread reviver challopped, not what he challopped

'51 times for ya mind' is solid tho

yeah c'mon mayne it's never the opinion it's always the SHTYYYYYOOOOOPID way the opinion gets dropped

all tru challops have this tone of "OH YEAH I WENT THERE" which is the trigger for the SBflex

idk, 'I will always give it a 7/10, and do not get annoyed when it gets played' is exactly my view on this record

will defend to the death your right to be rong

"self-evidently good" was a bad choice of words - just meant it doesn't seems to me that, for Illmatic anyway, it's not that hard to understand why it's liked even if you didn't like it yourself...

There's plenty of "classic' records i don't like, but for most I can see why others do

it doesn't seems to me that, for Illmatic anyway, it is that hard to understand why it's liked even if you didn't like it yourself...

Tbh, _Illmatic_ was an album that I bought mainly based on its reputation. And at first my reaction was a bit underwhelmed too: it seemed kind of monotonous and samey. There certainly were a lot of lyrics but they came too fast, and I couldn't really follow them very well. My reaction was similar to what Sterling wrote in his original post: "Do I just find it hard to follow his narrative flow because it is too dense?"

There were some occasional lines that stood out, but in terms of content, a lot of it sounded like the kind of standard guns and dope-dealing bluster that's long-ago lost its ability to shock. The rhymes and rhythms were intricate, technically impressive - but so is a Joe Satriani guitar solo. It sounded kind of like a very detailed, fifty-page job application for the position of "Baddest MC": overwhelmingly competent, but without a whole lot of personality.

I think it helped me to appreciate the album to actually read the lyrics, because it was hard for me to hear them all at the rate he delivers them. So anyway, I'm not saying it's not a great album - just that it took me a bit of work to appreciate.

Part of what I realized by reading the lyrics, I think, is that the guns-and-drugs stuff, while omnipresent, is a lot less by-the-numbers than it first appears. It seems to function on different levels - and notably as a metaphor for the act of writing itself. The embarrassing fact about Nas, which he is at great pains to conceal, is that he is really a sensitive artist type and not a hard thug at all. It is that tension I think that makes the album really interesting.

patronize much?

You tell me.

Anyway, if you want to hear some really patronizing stuff: I think the tension between the perceived feminine stuff, like feelings and emotions, and the perceived masculine stuff, like toughness and violence, is a lot of what makes this style of hip hop interesting (when it is interesting). How does the craft of lyric writing fit into the accepted masculine role? Is laboring over an intricate internal rhyme scene a "manly" thing to do? Sitting by oneself with a sheet of paper, pouring out one's feelings? It doesn't seem like it. One way to resolve the tension is to explicitly compare the act of writing and rapping to acts of violence.

i'm pretty sure hip hop has always dealt with "feelings" pretty well and the writer's craft has also been an important aspect of the music since forever.

i mean i don't think writing rhymes gets denigrated or has ever been seen as unmanly? its a skill. and it can even pay the bills.

Sure but it's the paradox of the poet-thug that hip-hop has placed in such prominence, more than any other form I can think of. Would a hardened criminal really pour out his feelings in carefully wrought poetry? Only in Shakespeare or hip-hop.

or the blues.

or country music.

I didn't like Illmatic when it came out, seemed boring. Took me years to "get" it.

I wouldn't say that the lyrics of blues and country music aren't carefully wrought, but they aren't usually as ostentatiously poetic. They don't announce their own obsessions with language and lyrical craft to the same extent.

xp

kinda like me and exile on main street.

x-post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhMiKeSffns
^^^poet thugs

rap lyrics are more dense generally by nature

"They don't announce their own obsessions with language and lyrical craft"

homer & jethro to thread!

Also, while it's true that countless blues and country songs are about criminals, with rare exceptions, they are mostly not sung from the perspective of a criminal. That aspect of hip-hop makes the paradox between medium and message all the more sharp.

One way to resolve the tension is to explicitly compare the act of writing and rapping to acts of violence.

― o. nate, Monday, June 6, 2011 7:30 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark

i think theres a lot more going on w/ the presence of violence in rap music than rappers trying to prove manliness in an effeminate artform. im not sure why music that addresses some ugly realities -- even though it often does it in a fantastical or self-aggrandizing way -- is treated as more escapist & abnormal than music of other genres that ignores the worlds of prison/drugs/crime/poverty entirely. rap music is, in many ways, underclass music, & so it will portray the central issues facing the underclass, albeit in a wide range of ways that go from rick ross fantasy to escapist club tracks to gritty narratives dense w/ detail. the artfulness of nas' approach was in writerly details. the subject matter isnt 'played' its ... reality. how he addresses that subject matter is how the art comes in

The verses up the top of the thread are amazingly dense, like all sorts of temporal and perspective shifts in sixteen lines. Just looking from a writer's pov I'm in awe, before you even get to rhyme schemes or delivery. I don't really see any distinction between this stuff and poetry, certainly far more than Dylan or whatever else normally gets called poetry in pop.

talk about a weird rap flow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uan5Toi3SU

drugs/crime/violence as subject matter is only 'played' to those privileged enough to be jaded about such subjects ... we can stick to timeless borgeoise concerns like love & adobe slabs, lol

while it's true that countless blues and country songs are about criminals, with rare exceptions, they are mostly not sung from the perspective of a criminal

this is not true. I recommend you stop digging this hole while you can.

Pretty sure Nas owns up to being an intellectual.

Violence in rap lyrics is at least partly descended from murder ballads and violence in country and blues and 18th century ballads ffs. And partly because criminals have always been street heroes representing for the underclasses against the governing classes or the man. I mean maybe ballads about Dick Turpin where just a clever way of not getting beaten up by yr pals for owning up to sissy girl feelings but i doubt it.

also fwiw once upon a time country music was also "underclass" music in a lot of ways

lebroner, I agree with everything you said in that second to last post. There is definitely more going on. Violence in hip-hop lyrics is not just a pose. I was narrowing in on one, perhaps more controversial, aspect of it. I guess like many people I can't resist trying to be provocative on a message board. Sorry if that sounded like trolling.

"Violence in hip-hop lyrics is not just a pose."

except when it is. which is often enough.

Have we done a list thread for country/blues songs done from the perspective of an outlaw? I'm not saying there aren't a lot of them, just that they are not the mainstream of the form (unlike hip-hop).

Merle Haggard's career to thread

are you daring me to make a list wtf

most Blues murder tracks are in the 1st person cos most Blues lyrics are in the 1st person?

I just think yr tossing around ill-conceived generalizations is all

xp

Nas grew up in the Queensbridge projects, which may have had a little something to do with what he wrote about

xpost
the request for a list of outlaw songs is a little ridiculous dude

o. nate's substantive points > aspergers-wave pedantry imo

When I think of blues outlaw songs I think of stuff like "Stagger Lee" or "Frankie" or "John Hardy Was a Desperate Little Man", which are not told from the first-person perspective of the killer him(or her)-self. But if you think that blues is as defined by this type of song as mainstream hip-hop is, then fine, I'll concede the point.

the point is that 1st person criminal songs are not unique to hip hop and never have been

if you think hip hop is "defined" by 1st person crime narratives I dunno what to tell you

the criminality/wordplay/high self-esteeem interface is the main point here though right?

Not all of hip-hop, but there is a sub-genre within it that is defined by that type of narrative, IMO.

Violence in real life is often a pose, too... I think we do ourselves and the discourse more harm than good when we beat the "rap is poetry" drum too hard. It "legitimizes" rap (even though it never asked to be legitimized) and undermines/neglects the fact that rap is an actual guy talking in an actual rhythm. I should also admit that I don't like much poetry despite loving rap, so I'm probably extra loathe to make that analogy.

yeah plus this is how we ended up with poetry slams and hopefully someday we will be able to put that shameful practice behind us and move on as a people.

I'm gonna go to a poetry slam and recite Tyler lyrics.

speaking of glamorous sociopathic behaviour i'm really digging sons of anarchy on netflix.

yeah plus this is how we ended up with poetry slams and hopefully someday we will be able to put that shameful practice behind us and move on as a people.

― scott seward, Monday, June 6, 2011 4:37 PM (5 minutes ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/sevenxviii/hardforahoos.jpg

is hoos a slammer? i know crazy matt c. of ilx fame was, right? its like knowing and liking a republican. what are you gonna do? nobody's perfect.

damn son you should teach rap somewhere

― if xtm & dj chucky ft. annia could fly something something love (history mayne), Monday, 6 June 2011 19:23 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Sirens sounded, they seemed astounded: THE ILM RAP MUSIC OF THE GODS ALL TIME 100 GREATEST ALBUMS OFFICIAL THREAD

tons of stuff i would never listen to on that ilm rap poll thing. but i would defend to the death people's enjoyment of it all. fuck kanye though. and black sheep rap about sheep too much.

does remind me that i was stupid enough to sell my copy of liquid swords. what the fuck was i thinking? i sold most of my wu vinyl over the years. ebay prices too tempting.

probably my fave intro/first track of all time. rap-wise.

doesn't bother me that people don't like/get illmatic or that they express this in the form of high challops. life's too short, you know? i'm fucking offended, however, by the apparent consensus, circa 2003, that original pirate material was anything but garbage.

it's not 'high challops' if you give reasons ffs -- and then shit on the streets w/o giving any. OPM probably at moment of maximum unfashionability right now but in its time and place it was dece. (and yeah it's a british thing, but just maybe some overpraised american records are... an american thing.)

i understand that things are different in other places.

yeah but the streets is garbage everywhere

yeah but yeah

i like the first streets record, or at least a few of the tracks on it \oO/ of course the idea that its touching illmatic is absurd but

i like how OPM got no votes on the poll...quite a fall in rep from 2002

is liking mike skinner better than el-p challops?

'lets push things forward' was dope 2 me. also the one abt raving & being on x for the first time. i forget what else i liked. the one abt the drunk soccer hooligan was a bit too regional for me

Has it come to this oooh uh uh uh. Haven't listened to OPM in ages, some good tunes iirc.

Is this thread worth reading? I kind of don't really care to read about Illmatic anymore. Like Radiohead or The Beatles; everything that needs to be said has been said imo.

thread highlight:

c'mon, J0hn, you easily could have said "most of my wife with rap lyrics" instead and noone would've been offended.

― Alex in Baltimore, Friday, October 19, 2007 11:27 AM (3 years ago) Bookmark

This is where the debate gets a bit silly because no sane British person would talk about Original Pirate Material in the context of hip-hop (because it isn't) or rate it on the quality of the rapping and certainly not in relation to Illmatic. When it came out it was viewed (rightly) as a DIY garage album. Tom E OTM upthread when he said neither album succeeds on the other's terms, but then they aren't trying to.

yeah, The North at Its Heights is the genuine UK challenger to Illmatic.

my conversation is COOL, you're in my location...

bedtime

http://musicvideos.su/Album10/The_Blackout_Crew_-_Time_2_Shine.jpg

weirdly reading skinners lyrics on the page (or screen) has made me respect him a bit more. i cant listen to anything he did after that first album though. but this thread has been as much 'explain opm to me' as illmatic. but i wouldnt even say he was an mc. hes a one-off. apart from beezy. but does anyone listen to beezy?

lad in my maths A-level class left college to form a band with mc tunes. just remembered that.

Hey folks. This is just to say that I've been listening to Elmatic a bunch lately, and really enjoying it, and you should too: http://www.xxlmag.com/news/2011/05/download-elzhis-elmatic-now/

I've been listening to _It Was Written_ lately, trying to decide why it doesn't quite have the impact of _Illmatic_. Maybe the beats on _Illmatic_ are a bit harder whereas the ones on _It Was Written_ have some "poppier" frills, like female singers on the choruses, but overall, I think the beats on _It Was Written_ are fine. I think for me the thing that doesn't work so well on _It Was Written_ is the persona. I like the scrappy, small-time striver persona on _Illmatic_ better than the big-time kingpin persona on _It Was Written_ - the small-time street-corner tales seem realer, grittier, less cartoonish, more dramatic, and easier to identify with than the big-time mobster tales. Many of the better lyrical moments on _It Was Written_ are when the kingpin is reflecting back on the days when he was a small-timer, like on "Shootouts". I guess in some ways it's a classic second-album conundrum - how can you keep writing from the perspective of an up-and-comer when you've made it?

i recommend italics

Yes, should have done that. Next time.

explain html italics to me

Click on 'Show Formatting Help'

To me It Was Written and I Am... are just horrible messes. Like he just jumped on that Puffy-sampling-80s-pop-choruses thing because it was popular and not because it fit him, remakes of old songs like he'd already ran out of ideas by his second and third records, completely changing his persona but whereas he lived the life of a small teenage kid doing stupid shit, he never could pull off the fantasy Escobar, a ton of producers without Serch to mould them into a *sound*...

Like somewhere I have a disc I made of those 3 records between Ill and Stillmatic that is p dope tho*. Nastradamus is the one that is really disappointing, as he seemed to try and just get a small set of dope producers and focus but it came off as such a horrible mess.

*Think I might do this again and do the same with Street's Disciple, HHID and the Nigger record.

fyi thats sorta the received wisdom on those lps. i think it was written is p great & 60-70% of tracks on 'i am' are dope too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVd2cBYEeXg

Yeah It Was Written is 10/10 classic to me, sometimes I like it more than Illmatic... It's certainly not a "horrible mess," I mean any album that has fucking "I Gave You Power," "The Message," "Watch Dem Niggas," "Affirmative Action," "Black Girl Lost," "Shootouts," etc. can't be written off as a sub-par sophomore effort. Nas is a much more dynamic, versatile emcee on IWW.

And I Am... is pretty dope as well. "Nas Is Like," "K-I-S-S-I-N-G," "NY State of Mind 2"... definitely slept on.

dude undying love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzokAVkFLyQ&feature=related

yeah! I mean even Nastradamus has this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV_-aemTtTc

and "you owe me" which is probably his best attempt at a straight up pop single

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgGD5fJsLU&NR=1

not nas but worth pting out

since it was a cassette-only bonus track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQmPCJY3mA8

just like this

speaking of non-album cuts, this is dope as fuckk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6dg5eHqZCk

i forgot that complex just did that list, im sure all of these are on it -- havent read yet -- oops

http://www.realniggatumblr.com/post/2850367548/nas-street-dreams-remix-live-on-all-that

haha he performed that on Nickelodeon?!?

haha

what a dope time to be into rap

right??????/

that is fucking dope

it was written is p great & 60-70% of tracks on 'i am' are dope too.

― lebroner (D-40), Thursday, June 9, 2011 9:21 PM Bookmark

yup

hey guys you used k-i-s-s-i-n-g as an example as why i was wrong

this video has seriously made my day thanks

"you owe me" which is probably his best attempt at a straight up pop single

― The Brainwasher, Friday, June 10, 2011 12:41 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmark

that i can't think of a strong counter argument to this is proof that nas is horrible at pop singles

on joints like this nas comes across like wisest dude ever, it's almost effortless.

funny how nas can flip between sounding like this, the all knowing, almost parental, figure who has seen so much of life + would be a great person to seek advice from and then at other times a batshit pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theorist.

"If I Ruled the World" is his best pop single.

That song sucks

its still his best pop single

First rap song I ever memorized.

Love it to this day

Sometimes I sit back with a Buddha sack
Mind's in another world thinking how can we exist through the facts
Written in school text books, bibles, et cetera
Fuck a school lecture, the lies get me vexed-er
So I be ghost from my projects
I take my pen and pad for the week
And hitting L's while I'm sleeping
A two day stay, you may say I need the time alone
To relax my dome, no phone, left the 9 at home
You see the streets have me stressed somethin terrible
Fucking with the corners have a nigga up in Belleville
Or h.d.m., hit with numbers from 8 to 10
A future in a maximum state pen is grim
So I comes back home, nobody's helping shorty doo-wop
Rollin two Phillies together in the Bridge we called 'em oowops
He said, "Nas, niggas could be bustin' off the roof
So I wear a bullet proof and pack a black tres-deuce"
He inhaled so deep, shut his eyes like he was sleep
Started coughing when I peeked to watch me speak
I sat back like the mack, my army suit was black
We was chillin' on these benches where he pumped his loose cracks
I took an l when he passed it, this little bastard
Keeps me blasted he starts talking mad shit
I had to school him, told him don't let niggas fool him
'cos when the pistol blows the one that's murdered will be the cool one
Tough luck when niggas are struck, families fucked up
Could've caught your man, but didn't look when you bucked up
Mistakes happen, so take heed never bust up
At the crowd catch him solo, make the right man bleed
Shorty's laugh was cold blooded as he spoke so foul
Only twelve trying to tell me that he liked my style
Then I rose, wiping the blunts ash from my clothes
Then froze only to blow the herb smoke through my nose
And told my little man that I'm a go cyprose
There's some jewels in the skull that he can sell if he chose
Words of wisdom from Nas try to rise up above
Keep an eye out for Jake shorty what
One love

---

Seriously if you can't get down with that I don't think rap music --or life-- is for you.

sayin

Interesting that Eric Weisbard claimed to prefer "It Was Written" to "Illmatic" in SPIN back in '96. It was part of the larger theme of his column that pleasure in rap was considered suspect:

http://books.google.com/books?id=I6ZfZSHzFXIC&lpg=PA139&dq=nas%20it%20was%20written%20spin&pg=PA139#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rollin two Phillies together in the Bridge we called 'em oowops

^^love this line

if i ruled the world rules

Seeing things like I was controlling, click rolling
Tricking six digits on kicks and still holding
Trips to Paris, I civilized every savage
Gimme one shot I turn trife life to lavish
Political prisoner set free, stress free
No work release purple M3's and jet skis

my local shop had this for $11 yesterday, so i snagged it, filling a hole in my vinyl collection.

in a world of $20+ single LPs this seemed like a steal. but for all i know there was a deluxe/remastered/180-gram'd/bonus-track'd/whatever'd reissue like 6 months ago that devalued what i bought.

was there? or did i get a sweet deal?

Doesn't look like there was a reissue: http://www.discogs.com/Nas-Illmatic/master/20148

my local shop had this for $11 yesterday, so i snagged it, filling a hole in my vinyl collection.

in a world of $20+ single LPs this seemed like a steal. but for all i know there was a deluxe/remastered/180-gram'd/bonus-track'd/whatever'd reissue like 6 months ago that devalued what i bought.

was there? or did i get a sweet deal?

― alpine static, Sunday, 25 November 2012 19:25 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

very sad post

so sad

i come up with really good, complicated reasons why it was okay for me to spend $19 on a record sometimes, you need to hone your reflexes to just believe that you got a bargain & not interrogate the evidence too coolly. otherwise you will not acquire the records.

bro, i acquire the records, at a pace that i can't really afford. there is no problem there. i hear what you're saying, but your concern is misplaced in this case. i can come up with all kinds of reasons - good and bad - why it's ok for me to spend $x on a record.

that said, i lol'd when i saw the $48 price tag on the 2xLP, 45 RPM reish of Nirvana's Inscesticide the other day. and I am a mega-fan of said band. but that is beyond ridiculous, even for the vinyl-gouging game.

happy w/ my Nas purchase regardless, don't worry.

i'm just trying to get my head around the idea that an Illmatic on vinyl that was possibly pressed in 1994 would be devalued by a more recent reissue

So many gems in this thread

Speaking of which, if Nas did a whole album like "I Can" but maybe over all different sorts of classical music then i'd love it.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, January 29, 2004 12:11 AM (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lmbo

Nas does have one of the best non-album catalogues ever.

that said, i lol'd when i saw the $48 price tag on the 2xLP, 45 RPM reish of Nirvana's Inscesticide the other day. and I am a mega-fan of said band. but that is beyond ridiculous, even for the vinyl-gouging game.

otm, it is just fascinating when you see like a fleetwood mac record inexplicably priced at $50, & scan the lil sticker on the shrinkwrap to see how they've justified this

does he really? obv some great songs here and there but it feels like the overwhelming majority of his best work is actually on his albums, which can't be said for most rappers that have debuted since like 2000 (xpost)

that said, i lol'd when i saw the $48 price tag on the 2xLP, 45 RPM reish of Nirvana's Inscesticide the other day. and I am a mega-fan of said band. but that is beyond ridiculous, even for the vinyl-gouging game.

otm, it is just fascinating when you see like a fleetwood mac record inexplicably priced at $50, & scan the lil sticker on the shrinkwrap to see how they've justified this

― absurdly pro-D (schlump), Monday, November 26, 2012 4:14 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you have so much to learn about HOT STAMPERS

"oh wow 180-gram vinyl, double vinyl" *wallet explodes from pocket, bills flutter checkoutwards*

xpost:

Yeah. I sometimes zone out to these fan made comps from a few years back. They hold up:

Tracklisting:
-------------

Disc 1

01. Nas - Formal Introduction (2:51)
02. Nas - Deja Vu (No DJ) (3:53)
03. Nas - On The Real (3:26)
04. Nas - Street Dreams (Remix) (4:46)
05. Nas - The Second Coming (3:34)
06. Nas - My Worst Enemy (4:06)
07. Nas - The Rise And Fall (3:57)
08. Nas - Tales From The Hood (4:00)
09. Nas - Escobar 97 (3:31)
10. Nas - Good Morning (2:22)
11. Nas - Find Ya Wealth (3:40)
12. Nas - High (2:30)
13. Nas - New York Talk (3:52)
14. Nas - Silent Murder (With Bonus Verse) (3:23)
15. Nas - Stay Chizzled (Large Professor Remix) (3:29)
16. Nas - Star Wars (4:08)
17. Nas - Understanding (3:13)
18. Nas - Life is Like a Dice Game (Extended Mix) (4:22)
19. Nas - Take it in Blood (Alternate Verses) (4:18)
20. Nas - You Don't Know Me (3:39)
21. Nas - Project Window (Original Version) (5:04)
22. Nas - 2Nd Childhood Remix Medley (Bonus Track) (4:33)
23. Nas - The World is Yours II Dead Presidents Blend (Bonus Track) (2:55)

Disc 2: Verses From... the Bowels of Hell

01. Nas - Verse From 93 Westwood Show (2:15)
02. Nas - Sinful Living (1:46)
03. Nas - Firm Clue Freestyle (2:02)
04. Nas - Verse From Funk Flex Volume 2 (1:28)
05. Nas - The Foulness (Part 1 And 2) (3:14)
06. Nas - One Plus One (Minus One) (1:39)
07. Nas - Hot 97 Freestyle (True Dialect) (0:46)
08. Nas - Verses From Everything is Real (1:19)
09. Nas - Bonus Verses From Ain't Hard to Tell (2:31)
10. Nas - Bonus Verse From Street Dreams (1:10)
11. Nas - Verse From Desperados 2 (1:37)
12. Nas - Verse From Affirmative Action Remix (1:27)
13. Nas - Verse From Thug Calm Down (1:19)
14. Nas - Verse From Last Words (1:54)
15. Nas - Eye For An Eye Freestyle (1:30)
16. Nas - Verse From to My (1:11)
17. Nas - Verses From Soundtrack to The Streets (2:11)
18. Nas - Live From The Bridge (Minus Clue on The Bridge) (2:25)
19. Nas - Verse From a Few Good Niggas (1:48)
20. Nas - Verse From Let My Niggas Live (1:13)
21. Nas - Stillmatic Freestyle (2:26)
22. Nas - Verse From It's Mine (1:03)
23. Nas - Verse From Be Ez (1:21)
24. Nas - Verse From Show Discipline (0:42)
25. Nas - Verse From Da Bridge 2001 (0:56)
26. Nas - Verse From Made U Look Remix (0:58)
27. Nas - Verse From Some of Em (1:12)
28. Nas - Verse From in Between Us (1:01)
29. Nas - Verse From Self Conscience (1:34)
30. Nas - Verse From Road to Zion (1:03)
31. Nas - Verse From Never Too Late (1:41)
32. Nas - Verse From Journey Through Life (1:24)
33. Nas - Verse From Good Life (0:43)
34. Nas - Verses From Let Em Hang (1:22)
35. Nas - Verses From I Want it (1:58)
36. Nas - Jonesin' (1:19)
37. Nas - Verse From Bravehearted (0:58)
38. Nas - Verse from Livin Thug (1:04)
39. Nas - 2006 Freestyle (1:51)
40. Nas - The Curse (1:01)
41. Nas - My Will (1:49)
42. Nas - Zone Out Over Just Blaze (Bonus Track) (1:45)

Disc 3: Synergy

01. Nas - Life's a Bitch Featuring AZ (Statik Selektah Mad Sol Remix) (2:39)
02. Nas - In Too Deep Featuring Nature (3:41)
03. Nas - John Blaze Featuring Big Punisher Jadakiss And Raekwon (3:54)
04. Nas - Mo Money Mo Murder Homicide Featuring AZ (5:11)
05. Nas - The Foulness (Part 3) Featuring Nature (1:44)
06. Nas - Serious Featuring AZ (2:14)
07. Nas - Streets of New York (No Singing) Featuring Rakim (1:42)
08. Nas - Analyze This Featuring Jay-Z (2:40)
09. Nas - Fast Life (Buckwild Remix) Featuring Kool G Rap (4:53)
10. Nas - Wake Up Show 94 Anthem Featuring Lauryn Hill, Organized Konfusion, And Ras Kass (2:23)
11. Nas - The Foulness (Part 4) Featuring Nature (1:40)
12. Nas - Tick Tock Featuring Prodigy (3:47)
13. Nas - Queenstyle Featuring Noreaga (4:41)
14. Nas - Body in The Trunk Featuring Noreaga (3:45)
15. Nas - Time Featuring AZ And Nature (3:44)
16. Nas - Everyday Thing Featuring Nature And Dre (4:36)
17. Nas - Sometimes I Wonder Featuring Nature (4:51)
18. Nas - Thugz Mansion (Cookin Soul Remix) Featuring 2Pac (3:40)
19. Nas - Why (Remix) Featuring Jadakiss And Common (3:02)
20. Nas - Music For Life Featuring Common (4:57)
21. Nas - Eye For An Eye Featuring Mobb Deep And Raekwon (4:48)
22. Nas - Verbal Intercourse Featuring Raekwon And Ghostface (3:31)

Rap & Bull bonus disc:

01. Nas - Sincerity Featuring Mary J Blige And DMX (5:07)
02. Nas - Ice King (Remix) Featuring Res (3:52)
03. Nas - Did You Ever Think (Remix) Featuring R.Kelly (4:19)
04. Nas - It Must Be Nice (Remix) Featuring Lyfe (4:20)
05. Nas - Streets of New York Featuring Alicia Keys And Rakim (4:37)
06. Nas - Make it Last Forever Featuring Mariah Carey And Joe (5:07)
07. Nas - Finer Things Featuring Jon B (5:01)
08. Nas - Man Up Featuring Amerie (3:33)
09. Nas - Love is All We Need Featuring Mary J Blige (4:14)
10. Nas - Locked Up (One Love Blend) Featuring Akon (4:57)

NSO POPS: ILLMATIC WITH NAS, March 28-29, 2014, Kennedy Center Concert Hall, W. DC
American rapper Nas and the NSO Pops kicks off One Mic: Hip-Hop Culture Worldwide on March 28, 2014 with a symphonic celebration of the 20th anniversary of Nas’s 1994 debut album and instant classic, Illmatic. These performances by Nas and the NSO capture the spirit of the original album through supporting the verse with new orchestral arrangements. NSO Principal Pops Conductor Steven Reineke leads the orchestra.

"overblown orchestral arrangements of Illmatic in another city" was the elevator pitch for the Kendrick Lamar album

http://funkydl.bandcamp.com/album/jazzmatic-nas-remixes

Actually, the only white people who posted in this thread are Sterling Clover, J0hn D., & and what.

― The Reverend, Sunday, October 21, 2007 10:33 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

is jess not white?

warning, horrible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Ofd0WwJyA&feature=youtu.be

is jess not white?

― flopson, Saturday, March 30, 2013 3:48 PM Bookmark

...

sorry!

im becoming a member of the NSO so i can get in on the pre-sale of this... feeling i might regret it... hope AZ shows up for his one verse

i've listened to this album a lot and loved it over the years but it always struck me how bad a lot of the answers were to sterl's provocations itt

like, yeah obviously there's lots of realistic detail and poetic facility in the lyrics but they're very hard to follow as narratives (not just because of nas's delivery), and you can only sell nas as a storyteller here if you try to get by on attitude instead of on like mid-career ghostface creative writing workshop storycraft

it struck me recently that ralph waldo emerson is conventionally faulted for some things related to things nas is faulted for. his writing is supposedly full of these intense gems that hang together in this entrancing way that has a tendency to seem like a tangle of empty rhetoric and attitude upon reflection, and his thought is supposedly kind of foolishly/blindly optimistic, in neglect of the facts. but the better things people write about emerson notice his continual oscillating between despair and hope, and his effort to find a way of, basically, being believable about the latter in the face of the former. so his writing is really self-conscious and concerned with its quality of consciousness, and unstable because it's trying to keep these seemingly opposed things in a kind of productive tension.

the knock against nas would be his nihilism instead of his optimism, but he has that same sort of all-encompassing ambition to take in all of life and the world at once, to be self-possessed in the face of it. and his lyrics are so complicated because they're pivoting all over the place between attitudes and frames of mind in response to the narrative details and the reminisces (lots of them for a 20-year-old!) and to nas's own attempts to be this idealist transparent-eyeball mc. and like emerson, super preoccupied with thinking/writing representatively so as to articulate something universal out of a local, everyday experience that people are usually dismissive of.

in other words hua hsu = star post itt

http://twitchfilm.com/2014/04/tribeca-2014-review-time-is-illmatic-an-illuminating-look-back-at-the-creation-of-a-hip-hop-classic.html#ixzz301ZK548s

Embedded in Nas' dark street tales are notes of optimism and hope, with the ultimate message to his listeners being, "I made it out of this alive, and so can you." A late scene that shows the announcement of a fellowship at Harvard named in his honor promoting hip-hop scholarship emphasizes this. Unlike most of the neighborhood folks whose photos were used for Illmatic's album cover art, Nas was able to escape the fates of death or prison, and Time Is Illmatic ultimately becomes a moving testimonial to how music literally saved Nas' life.

for me now, production is stone cold classic, but i never did really connect with the lyrics.

no contrarianism i do like some of the more animated delivery of other rappers way over nas' style here. did we ever discuss elzhi and elmatic? i'm not gonna say its better than illmatic, but i def enjoy listening to it more, maybe just because it feels fresher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHBdH8aj5Co

http://emoji.fileformat.info/gemoji/corn.png

jfc

ez rock just died i'm gonna put up with this shit

lol the streets