MATTHEW BOWER (Pure/Total/Skullflower/Sunroof!/Hototogisu/Voltigeurs)

voted hototogisu because the one time i saw em live they were levitationally loud (part of the gig is preserved on the Prayer Rug Exorcism CD fwiw)

unlike other ilxors, don't have a prob w/ MB's currentish overloaded metal bliss phase, tho' it is sort of a shame that the individuality of sunroof!, skullflower etc has been to lost one vast hellish miasma.

Sunroof!; pulled out Sad Frog Wind this week for first time in a long while, great record.

where does ramleh fit in?

one vast hellish miasma

My dream. (And one reason why I don't mind the relative lack of differentiation -- much like Justin Broadrick's endless projects I tend to regard Bower's work as somewhere between individual facets and overall flow.)

Anyway, just picked up the new Skullflower early singles comp at last so now I need to get the other three reissues...

I've heard exactly one Hototogisu track (which was awesome) and exactly one Skullflower track (which was really good) and I rep super hard for the Youngsbower album, which I totally love, but I don't feel right voting for 'something else' those

*tho

pulled out Sad Frog Wind this week for first time in a long while, great record.
― Mark, Monday, December 30, 2013 12:04 PM

ysi?

sunroof!

imo "found star sound" is the best

actually, i take that back!

should have voted YOUNGSBOWER

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

if YOUNGSBOWER had been on this poll it would have swept it

I missed this poll. Probably Sunroof! Especially the later stuff that kind of Krautronic.

If I really dig Exquisite Fucking Boredom where do I go next with Skullflower?

You might want to check out Cloudz by Sunroof. EFB was kind of a one-off for that style, the next one (Orange Canyon Mind) was the beginning of his infatuation with black metal-influenced, tinnitus-inducing high frequency feedback IIRC.

that skullflower rec always makes me think of henry james' description of proust - "inconceivable boredom associated with the most extreme ecstasy which it is possible to imagine"

Feel like that could work for many of my favourite records

Didn't see this but would have voted Sunroof!, 99% on the strength of Cloudz. I like what I've heard of his other work but nothing else has hit me like Cloudz, not even EFB. (Any suggestions?)

YOUNGZBOWAAAAAAAAAAAAA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Rts51zCH8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFdwTO1dUN0

best sunroof! imo is still found star sound

oh i said that upthread, duh

(Any suggestions?)

3rding or 4thing Youngsbower, also look for the Splat! CDr, which has lots of loops given the Cloudz treatment. Loops from Judas Priest, Fleetwood Mac and "Rainbow Connection" btw.

missed this. would've voted for hototogisu - 'prayer rug exorcism', 'pale fatal sister' or 'floating japanese gardens...' are amazing. if only because skullflower's output is kinda hit and miss. still, 'infinityland' is the bower record i listened to the most, and my fav skullflower.

I heard something a few years ago that wasn't harsh noise, wasn't droney Vibracathdral-type stuff, wasn't Kraut-y, but was a long bonafide (albeit noisy and fucked up) guitar solo, sounded like some crazy Japanese / PSF style psych thing mixed with Hendrix or something (but, again, fucked up). Does this ring a bell? I know Bower's had a lot of different styles over the years, but I've never been able to locate this track..

:-(

https://thequietus.com/articles/26017-skullflower-removed-from-raw-power-line-up

yeah this is horrible

I've seen some people making the "well he's just really into the occult!" argument but there's no non-Nazi historical meaning attached to the Black Sun

that sentence about Moses is bonkers

There's a follow-up piece:

Does My Black Sun Look Big In This? Skullflower’s Patterns Of Predjudice

man that's a fucking bummer, i had no idea he was garbage

He recorded a pro-Brexit song somewhat recently, not surprised.

misanthropic noise dude in having problematic views shockah

not easy out there for a free noise fash man

i'm kinda confused by this whole story -- did someone call out the festival or bring his "problematic" views to their attention ... or? I mean, it wasn't like he suddenly started going in this aesthetic/political direction just a few months ago

gross

xp feel like it's quite possible to like Bower's music in a general/casual manner and have most if not all of the stuff cited in the article pass you by

that's why the article was written in the first place, I assume? Fits right in with the whole series The Quietus has been doing.

yeah i've been enjoying his work for decades in a non obsessive manner and never picked up on this stuff. i guess i always associated him with freaky drone noise stuff more than like serial killer power electronics shit, where i assume everyone is a nazi until proven otherwise.

yeah, i'm just thinking in terms of the festival cancelling him -- I would think, if it were me, booking this festival, and I have done a fair amount of booking, that if these issues were important to me, I would have done more research prior to booking him. This is what makes me wonder if there was external pressure, or maybe internal pressure for an imperfectly organized event

can anyone tell me more about cold spring and how much they’re implicated with the fash?

can anyone tell me more about cold spring and how much they’re implicated with the fash?

poxy phone

the festival in question is largely booked by one guy aiui; I don't get the impression he is/was an especially rabid Skullflower fan

don't think I've ever researched a band's background to check their politics aren't beyond the pale as part of a booking process. arguably it should be done more often, in general... but benefit of hindsight etc

feel like it's quite possible to like Bower's music in a general/casual manner and have most if not all of the stuff cited in the article pass you by

This is me, for sure. Also, I lost touch with what he was doing in recent years and had never looked at his blog until now. Plus, I have almost zero knowledge/interest in 'dark' metal, the occult, Nazi symbology etc, so something like the significance of the Black Sun would have passed me by anyway. As I say elsewhere on this thread, and probably elsewhere on this board, seeing a fantastic early morning VibraCathedral Orchestra performance, with Bower in the mix, at an ATP, and also a ferocious Hototogisu performance at David Keenan's Subcurrent Festival (circa 2005?) made me a convert to the Skullflower/Sunroof! etc cause. My impression of the music at the time was that it was hard-edged transcendental psychedelic bliss out shit, like a more full on Spacemen 3, and ultimately benign in intent/design. After Hototogisu ended (wonder why?) he seemed to dive more deeply into the metal/satanic/harsh noise side of things, that was obviously always present in the music, but not so entirely dominant (the early Hototogisu discs, w/out Marcia Bassett, sound like homemade variants on Taj Mahal Travelers, ffs). I don't know anything about the personalities of the noise music scene stalwarts, and I'm happy to keep things that way, but I am sad that an artist who gave me a lot of unexpected pleasure should turn out to be - or turn into - such a boringly predictable fash fuck. I thought he was a more interesting human being than that.

i was once in a position where i was a member of a group that booked shows, and one of the members had booked a musician that had raped a friend of mine. The member that did the booking did not know about the assault when he booked this musician. However, politics and problematic imagery are right out there in public view. ... It just seems like there's something slightly off in this Skullflower incident. The dude I know who considers it "virtue signalling" -- I feel like he kinda has a point.

The follow up Quietus article from today has a lot more details that are, sadly, pretty conclusive at least for me:

https://thequietus.com/articles/26024-skullflower-matthew-bower-fascism-racism

I don't think he was always / secretly this way, but he definitely seems to have rather quietly taken a hard right turn in the last few years. Like others have posted, I would have never noticed and I haven't kept up on his music in a while. Massive fan of Sunrrof! / Vibracathedral and other stuff by him back in the day though. Pretty sad.

I don't want to be too harsh on the festival guy, really, I mean, it's human to have second thoughts, and to make decisions you regret and try to fix them/make up for them.

I associate Skullflower with noise/power electronics dudes of my generation, some of whom are kinda fascist, and others who grew up where that kind of "edginess" meant something else, who are now "having to adjust" to different sociocultural standards

so the issue is, "Is dude seriously a fascist, or is it just something like Prurient's haircut?" -- Obviously, reading the article, we're not just talking about something on the lower level of Prurient's haircut

Xpost what a great way to look at it.

politics and problematic imagery are right out there in public view

unless you're using 'in public view' to mean 'would eventually be found, given enough time looking into his personal online presence and recorded discography' then this doesn't really seem like the case at all here

looking into his personal online presence and recorded discography

this is something one does when one is booking a festival and/or doing the promo/marketing for it ... i'm not talking about the casual fan

we're talking about a Gen X noise dude who puts out records called "Fucked on a Pile of Corpses" -- it's not a guarantee dude will have distasteful politics, but it's worth a look-see

yeah but you could dismiss that as some anti-pc avant-gammon bullshit, it doesn’t necessarily translate to hey guys check this cool swastika on my wall

this is something one does when one is booking a festival

sure if it's a black metal or streetpunk or Prurient haircut noise kinda thing. would be surprised if this was done as a matter of course for most DIYish festivals that don't answer to this description

in the case of this particular one I suspect the intended context of Skullflower's presence was mostly related to their place on the psych/noiserock continuum, which is what most of the rest of the bill leans towards. as such if dude hasn't spent an hour or two googling and/or privately asked ppl 'anything dubious I should know about this act before I book it?', it's probably because it's not an issue he's had until now. still an oversight but not really seeing how it amounts to quote-unquote virtue signalling

the "virtue signalling" comment came from another noise dude ... just exploring that perspective

Fucking Hell, Bower

i second this comment - can anyone tell me more about cold spring and how much they’re implicated with the fash?

"Is dude seriously a fascist, or is it just something like Prurient's haircut?" lol

xpost FWIW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Spring_(label)

https://www.discogs.com/label/9578-Cold-Spring

Laibach!

I was pretty proud of myself when I showed up to the Hospital Records 20th anniversary show in my Fishbone FUCK RACISM t-shirt as counterprogramming to the fash fashion show

actually, looking through the cold spring discography and there are definitely some fash acts in amongst them.

https://i.imgur.com/fxCsu1Q.jpg

serious Super Hans gone wrong vibes

is there anyone who's "fascinated" by nazi and right wing iconography that doesn't ultimately turn out to be suspect?

lemmy maybe? i don't know that much about his views

Jeff Hanneman, Dee Dee Ramone, Gunplay

my only exposure to this guy was a vibracathedral orchestra 7" that I probably played once so I'll sleep comfortably knowing I'm not actively supporting a nazi or some shit.

I was pretty proud of myself when I showed up to the Hospital Records 20th anniversary show in my Fishbone FUCK RACISM t-shirt as counterprogramming to the fash fashion show

I'm curious to know how and where do we as listeners/supporters of problematic artists draw the line. Skullflower, Pure, Ramleh etc. have clear, decades-long ties to fascist and holocaust fetishizing scenes like Broken Flag; scenes that have evolved and are active today in the noise/industrial/PE underground. If we telescope out from Bower's associations we implicate a host of artists/labels who I'm certain do not espouse the same views. I listen to and, probably more importantly, buy records by artists who I know are atrocious people. Why?, because I fall back on the facile reasoning of 'all is permitted in art.' My tastes, though, and material support of music is worldly and omnivorous and I must believe on some level that it evens out. I've encountered IRL notable indie rock artists who are demonstrably terrible in their politics and actions though it's not evident in their art. I generally disengage with art when such is evident. I do not mean to point fingers or justify myself - just want to know how ilxors (a most informed and thoughtful forum) contend with all this.

it is challenging for me, for sure. I envy people who have stronger, simpler values whether they are based on the art or based on the politics/ethics. I do see a generational/age aspect of this in terms of the noise/industrial scene. But for me, there is a social aspect, that someone who has a normal life and is solely a listener/concert attendee doesn't have to deal with.

can you expand, sarahell, on your felt experience of the social aspect? no worries if you'd rather not. i'm a musician, too, and have shared bills with very suspect noise and metal projects and the general feeling between me and collaborators/promoters is, 'woah, those guys are on some shit,' but we carry on and maybe feel gross. it's a failure of courage and cynicism on my part that perpetuates this. i guarantee that this same scenario plays out regularly in punk and indie shows.

As a long-time DIJ/C93/NWW/Whitehouse fan, this guy has always passed me by for some reason but this incident has spurred me on to check him out. IIIrd Gatekeeper sounding particularly fine at the moment.

I know of him (MB) bc he did something with Richard Youngs iirc? On the social level, I’m generally uncomfortable around people who radiate their own discomfort — men who are miserable to the point of nihilism scare me. Fortunately I don’t really hang around many people like that, though I know they’re floating around. I think I’m actually pretty sensitive to harshly negative vibes because they can be aimed at me. This guy is definitely someone I would avoid at this point.

Avoid consuming his music not hanging out socially. Sarahell is otm about the generational aspect of this type of behavior.

can you expand, sarahell, on your felt experience of the social aspect?

I'm in my mid-40s, and was a booker/promoter/organizer of shows in my local noise (and adjacent genres) scene for ... almost 20 years? So some of these older "edgy" guys are people I've known and been friends with for a long time. One of the things I tried to do, and that others are also doing even more of, is making things more inclusive in terms of gender, gender identity, race/ethnicity -- so it isn't a bunch of (now-balding) white dudes playing for their (now-balding) white dude friends. And so, the "edgy" politics are now problematic, and I have people I like and care about on both sides of the issue.

At one point, about a year ago (maybe two?) there was a local festival with a couple problematic acts, and that was called out and one of my friends was involved with the festival, and another friend (who didn't know the first friend) tried to have a productive discussion with the festival friend about the problems, and it was ... awkward ... like all the excuses/rationalizations that you read people saying in articles and shake your heads at ... those were what were going through my head, and sometimes out my mouth. "well, he isn't actually a fascist, he's just kinda nihilistic, in general." ... "It's more about the aesthetics than the politics." ... "He had a rough upbringing." ... "He's not racist." ... and then on the other side, "She is actually really fucking smart and has thought about this a lot, and is not just following the lead of others." .... "She actually has spent a lot of time in this scene, almost as much as you, and isn't that much younger than you are. It's not like she doesn't know the history and context of this stuff." .... "You might respond differently if you were black and trans, but you are a white guy born with a dick."

i was really into his music as sunroof! and youngsbower from 2000 to 2003. i spent i don't know how many hours listening to youngsbower's "relayer" and sunroof's "found star sound"

i loved the blissed out vibe of the music, it seemed so peaceful and almost childlike in its blissed-out simplicity. at the time i was also listening to a lot of stuff like alice coltrane and terry riley and it seemed of a piece with that

looking back at track titles, i notice some of the ones that drew me in ("bright pacific streams", "new martian sun tunnel") but also ones that seem much creepier in retrospect ("columbine kisses", "silver nazi suicide")

and some that seem fittingly ridiculous ("jacking off making airplane noises")

Sorry I went bald

that would be a good band name / album title / track title for a power electronics group

yeah, fucking on a pile of corpses is in line with jacking off making airplane noises imo --

As a long-time DIJ/C93/NWW/Whitehouse fan, this guy has always passed me by for some reason but this incident has spurred me on to check him out. IIIrd Gatekeeper sounding particularly fine at the moment.

― the word dog doesn't bark (anagram), Tuesday, 12 February 2019 19:49 (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

o_O

lol ... "if you liked this band associated with fascism, you might like this other artist also associated with fascism!"

this to me is like guys who post fucked up alt-right memes even though they're "not racist" and just "doing it for the lols."
assosciate yourself with that kind of negative/hateful attiude/imagery for long enough and can you be surprised when someone thinks you might, in fact, be kind of sketchy? says a lot to me that a good chunk of people trying to defend Bower are calling out his critics as snowflakes who need a safe space. like, if that's your positioning, i'm not going to argue with you, but i think it's a laughable defense.

i'll say in the interest of full-disclosure that i have enjoyed some of this guy's music, particularly as the late great alludes to the more ambient/minimal/simplistic stuff. Never a power electronics guy.

prurient sucks,

yes maybe this is where i turn in my credentials too, because i feel like there are any number of perfectly serviceable noise bands w/ non sketchy politics that can cover, say, the hole left in my life by never listening to iiird gatekeeper again

yeah, i enjoyed this dude's stuff, and especially with richard youngs. I've kind of fallen off listening to a lot of this kind of thing since leaving glasgow tho. not really interested in the art of fascists at this juncture

is there anyone who's "fascinated" by nazi and right wing iconography that doesn't ultimately turn out to be suspect?

dopplereffekt? not sure if that's the same thing though

I don't know anything about Prurient's politics; I interviewed him for The Wire back in 2011 and he seemed like a saddo mama's boy more than anything else. I like that 4CD thing he put out the other year, though.

i don't think he's a white supremacist, just a shitty guy

cool posts

a few months ago a good friend who is a southwestern desert state libertarian loaned me a genocide organ box set. i found it to be a bracing aesthetic experience, by which i mean just looking at the track titles and the box "art" was enough for me. i did give it one listen but after 15-20 minutes i was like "boy i sure am glad i spent my youth being down w/ crash worship instead of these guys"

is there a general discussion thread for this type of thing? i had feelings about it but didn't take it to ILM at the time.

and even that turned out to be problematic!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Wolff

i remember that guy -- i remember learning he was problematic and not being able to enjoy whatever music I had enjoyed (mostly one song iirc). he lived on a commune of some kind? lots of pagan stuff? idk. i'm easily turned off.

is there anyone who's "fascinated" by nazi and right wing iconography that doesn't ultimately turn out to be suspect?

Feel like this quick list has been given an historical free pass:

The Rolling Stones
David Bowie
Iggy
Bryan Ferry
Lemmy
Joy Division
Siouxsie & The Banshees
Malcolm McLaren
Sex Pistols

https://hiphopdx.com/news/id.20555/title.gunplay-explains-meaning-behind-swastika-tattoo#

TW: photo

oof

https://hiphopdx.com/news/id.20555/title.gunplay-explains-meaning-behind-swastika-tattoo🕸#

TW: photo

boy i sure am glad i spent my youth being down w/ crash worship instead of these guys"

the friend involved w/ the problematic festival was a member of crash worship

and even that turned out to be problematic!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Wolff

― the late great, Wednesday, February 13, 2019 12:47 PM (yesterday)

lol! different guy, but lol.

southwestern desert state libertarian

as numerous as the creosote

ha i was wondering if yr southwestern desert state libertarian Genocide Organ fan was the same one I knew, but ... well, at least they could become friends.

is the 16 Horsepower/Wovenhand guy problematic or just weird? i can't tell...he's verged into neofolk-ish territory

remember roger adultery? that guy was kind of responsible for putting me off this whole musical universe. thanks roger adultery! i'm much happier nodding along to larry heard

He's on NPR now lol

woah

is the 16 Horsepower/Wovenhand guy problematic or just weird? i can't tell...he's verged into neofolk-ish territory

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, February 14, 2019 12:01 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

we're keeping an eye on him

He's on NPR now lol

― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Thursday, February 14, 2019 10:06 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what?

He's the Wooden Wand guy right? Didn't he just record an album w Neil Hagerty?

i was thinking like terry gross style

xp in 2015, yeah

terrible person afaict

?

this is all terribly confusing

https://www.npr.org/search?query=%22james%20jackson%20toth%22&page=1

he does own a swastika flag fwiw

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/ypvq9y/what-do-you-do-with-your-grandfathers-genuine-nazi-flag

there's plenty of ILX threads/posts that make it pretty clear he is a wannabe edgelord of the worst stripe

was gonna say it's always struck me as curious that I've never heard it suggested he might have bad politics (or any, really) outside of this website where he managed to be banned at least once for terrible and inarguably racist posts

nah james isnt racist. He did like to troll ilx though.

doesn't that make him an "edgelord" who uses racism as a toy?
idk, imo racism isn't a tool you use to irritate people unless you are in some way racist

nah james isnt racist. He did like to troll ilx though.

― Friedrich B. Neechy (Oor Neechy), Thursday, February 14, 2019 12:36 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he isn't racist he just liked to post racist stuff on a message board as a grown man in his late 20s

while I'm also not hugely interested in hashing out the difference between 'says racist things' and 'is actually racist' in this instance I went with the former

is the 16 Horsepower/Wovenhand guy problematic or just weird? i can't tell...he's verged into neofolk-ish territory

Would be surprised and devastated if this was true about DEE. He's very Old Testament in his religious beliefs, and has been drawing links with Native American spirituality, but apart from that I dunno.

cool...his dark folk thing could just attract that element...