Rob Manfred and the Destruction of Baseball (LOCKOUT 2022)

dude is only commissioner because he is a lawyer with much experience fucking over labor, and he's very good at it

commissioners work for the owners, not for 'the good of baseball'

weird how franchises are somehow losing money hand over fist yet the shittiest teams still sell for $1.5 billion?

anyway i honestly hope -- as a baseball fan and player and former MLB employee -- that it all falls apart. these owners are the worst people in the world

and former MLB employee

I knew bud selig was an ilxor

Do owners still claim to be losing money? I thought that myth died 20 years ago, along with the burning need to contract two teams.

As much as I'd like to see the players take a hardline stance in this round, I don't have much faith in Tony Clark to get it done.

ah, an aLgOrItHm

MLB’s proposal to players would see salary arbitration replaced with an algorithm that would determine salaries for pre-free agency players per source

Sounds like that idea will be met with resistance from MLBPA

— Ben Nicholson-Smith (@bnicholsonsmith) November 11, 2021

so basically the same way it is now except the players can't dispute it

The only wanted to go with fangraphs, because BBref overvalues fist pumps.

If salaries are going to be determined by a single metric, not WAR; bring back Game-Winning RBI.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32600372/agent-scott-boras-tanking-mlb-competitive-cancer-led-atlanta-braves-world-series-title

I haven't read this yet, but first thoughts are: 1) I used to kind of hate Boras, 2) haven't fire sales been going on for years, even decades (is it worse now?), and 3) there must be some deep-seated self-interest here that prompted him to speak out.

I think the difference is that the old fire-sales would bring back talent, prospects. The new fire sales are just teams dumping the salaries at the deadline and getting nothing back.

"It created an incentive for the race to the bottom, because now we have half the major league teams at some time during the season being noncompetitive..."

But 30 years ago, before the wild card, three-quarters of the teams were (realistically) non-competitive. Half the teams now are competitive, and they know that just getting into the playoffs gives them a decent shot to win everything. This is all good.

(xpost) Thanks. I guess teams were scared-straight about giving up prospects because of some long-term embarrassment like the Jeff Bagwell trade. I don't think they should be; it's a roll of the dice, and most prospects bounce around, get hurt, etc. Toronto fans and media were in a panic five years ago over the David Price trade (Matthew Boyd, Jairo Labourt, and Daniel Norris), and thus far, at least, none have panned out. It was a rental, but it worked out.

Anyway, he may be right that there's some major flaw in the way business is being conducted right now. But Atlanta won the same way that teams have been winning the World Series for decades: they got hot at the right time. It's not like their personnel was overwhelming. And I'm just suspicious of Boras as the messenger.

I thought his point was that teams used to spend more money on free agents during the off-season. Now the incentive to load up on high priced talent isn't there because you can muddle along at .500 and retool your team for table scraps at the deadline.

The fact that more teams are competitive compared with 30 years ago doesn't help the problem, according to him, because Boras' idea of competitiveness is teams overspending to win 95-100 games and there's less incentive to do that.

I don't agree with everything he says but there's a good point buried somewhere in there.

That makes sense, and that's what I meant about not trusting the messenger--he's pretending to care about the game, but he's speaking purely out of self-interest (conceding there may be points of overlap).

he's a blowhard and most of the things he says about individual players are ridiculous, but i think he's pretty savvy about the state of the game in general

and sure, he's self-interested, but no more so than anyone in management/ownership

I’m not sure he has any point here. Teams can win the WS by being middle of the road spenders with a base of young talent and small deadlines moves? We just as easily could have been looking at the Dodgers in the WS. Or yankees or Sox.
I’d agree something should be done about teams just pocketing revenue and not caring about competing (Marlins). But I don’t think an unlikely team like the braves being World Series champ is indicative of any kind of problem.

sawchik on the issue of young players and money. i have no idea how you'd even solve this fairly in a vacuum let alone while using the current CBA as a starting point

The players' dilemma in a couple of charts. The first shows earnings and performance by age in 2021. Age 26 players produced the most combined WAR of any age group & most plate appearances and innings of any age group. They combined for 14.7% of WAR but 3.8% of pay pic.twitter.com/YJJXeVZMbo

— Travis Sawchik (@Travis_Sawchik) November 13, 2021

Combined, the 22-28 age range accounted for 56% of WAR but 25.8% of pay last season. (For reference, in 2003, 22- to 28-year olds accounted for 48.1% of WAR, further illustrating how younger players today are accounting for more production.) pic.twitter.com/dWxgtVjqZ8

— Travis Sawchik (@Travis_Sawchik) November 13, 2021

That's probably been the trend since the beginning of the free agent era. There was an unwritten acceptance that it was OK to underpay young players (benefitting the teams) because they'd be overpaid down the line if they were productive. Players didn't rock the boat because they knew they'd see big money later in their careers (benefitting them more than the teams). It's a strange equilibrium but it helped maintain labour peace for the most part after the collusion settlements in the 80's.

The problem now is that front offices have stopped playing along, analytics departments can't (and won't) buy in to such a huge market inefficiency. I think the players are stuck, management strategies are constantly evolving, and there won't be an easy solution to any of this.

MLB lockout likely to arrive late next week. One person's guess at a 2022 timetable: Spring training is delayed until deep into March. Regular season gets going third week of April. Season shortened to 145 games. This new CBA is going to be prolonged war.

— Lynn G. Henning (@Lynn_Henning) November 23, 2021

fwiw here is marvin miller's book in epub + mobi format

(believe it was initially scanned but also i spent a good bit of time cleaning it up)

We are locked out.

They've already taken down pretty much every story about an active player.https://t.co/ank1Uxa4Ry

— Jack Baer (@JFordBaer) December 2, 2021

So they could have just kept going with the previous framework until a new agreement was in place? I’m not quite sure why they had to LOCK OUT exactly.

I wonder if the age of social media will push more people take the side of players than in the past.

Mostly: who buys a ticket for the owners?

I think mlb.com needs to keep their off-season formula intact, just reimagine all those great story ideas in terms of management: "One Surefire Christmas Gift Idea for Every Assistant GM."

I was 10000% in support of the players in '94 (over the weekend, I'll try to dig something up I wrote at the time and post it here), and good Ball Four worshipper that I am, I'm still on their side. But I won't care a tenth as much this time.

(A big part of why I cared so much in '94--think the Jays were out of it by mid-season, even though they were coming of their two WS wins--were Williams/Griffey chasing Maris and Gwynn chasing .400.)

The thing that would even out the money in baseball and help grow the entire enterprise would be to evenly distribute the TV money across the entire league like the NFL so that players salaries are truly similar on all clubs but the major market clubs are never going to give that up.

Beyond that, I think the actual game play anymore in the MLB is just going to shit. They play so many games during the regular season, I swear the players look f'n bored half the time and you see just crappy play all around that never would have flown before.

If the players are f'n bored why the heck do they think the fans should care. And as a fan in Cincy, I don't anymore. I don't see why ANY mid market team should give two shits about their team anymore.

#NewProfilePic pic.twitter.com/monyD2CDeL

— Joe Musgrove (@itsFatherJoe44) December 2, 2021

https://paydayreport.com/11337-2/

Beyond that, I think the actual game play anymore in the MLB is just going to shit. They play so many games during the regular season, I swear the players look f'n bored half the time and you see just crappy play all around that never would have flown before

According to manfred they locked out the players to avoid a strike. A strike is much worse than a lockout because

“you can’t quit! i locked you out first! NYEAHHHH!!”

also it’s a *defensive* lockout

stand your ground

a man’s cartel is his castle

Lead story on mlb.com today: "Commissioner reiterates desire to make deal." On deck for tomorrow: "Commissioner still in favor of reaching a deal."

defector is on the case

idk if labor law literally prevents them from even mentioning current players' names? iirc there have previously been minor fights about whether basic stats are proprietary, e.g., is it legal to say a dude hit X homers without paying MLB for the info (lol!)

in any case it's way too on-the-nose pointing out how baseball is nothing without the players

From Radio On #6, 27 years ago; as I wrote above, I cared a lot more then than I do now.

https://phildellio.tripod.com/ravitch.jpg

It may seem like I'm contradicting myself when I ridicule "had-enough" fans there. I don't think so: saying I don't care that much today isn't saying I've had enough, which is the kind of thing you say when you do care a lot. When they settle--tomorrow, in February, three years from now--I'll resume taking the same level of interest in the game that I took before the lockout, which amounts to following stats, following my favorite players, monitoring the Jays and ready to jump on their bandwagon at any given moment, and even, now and again, actually watching a game.

I'm sure every generation of baseball fans have this realization at one point or another, but in reality the game is played so very differently than it was in the 80s or even 90s for better or worse.

One example that I just find funny is that LaRosa's pizza for years would give out gift certificates for a free small 1 topping pizza if the Reds pitchers struck out 10 players for fans at the park. They changed it to a free slice for 11 strike outs now, as it literally happens every game now.

Some of the ball never being put into play and sitting back for a walk slows the rate of play down a ton, but the shit that infuriates me is that it 'seems' that even when they put the ball into play modern scouting pretty much has everyone down cold and yet I seem to see more crap fielding and baserunning.

While the better athleticism is probably part of the reason the strikeouts are much higher, I don't know that it has carried to better defense as you got the "Ugglafication" of players that can hit the long ball but they are playing out of position and are a brick in the field and usually swing and miss like Rob Deer.

Even if they can hit the long ball, they don't have the batting skills to work around their scouting though but hey they had that one year that got them that huge deal so I hope Eugenio Suarez really gives a good gift to his agent. That said, I like Geno at least he is not some social media A-hole, which is another reason to really hate this game.

And on top of that you got owners you now really know how big a A-holes they are that ruin entire clubs. Those shithead Trumpers that own the Cubs lead me to hope they never win a f'ing game ever again. But hey, that's nothing new I just know more about them now I suppose some owners are just smart to keep that crap on the down low.

So its probably more that I just despise the world more and more with baseball is just a microcosm of that hate. I hope this labor issue costs them the whole season, burn the fucker down.

i don’t disagree

in terms of the CBA it feels like that “one good year” problem is one facet of a nearly insoluble issue. stats show players peak around 25-27, yet that’s exactly the moment they can command big long term deals - and teams know their value will decline. maybe there’s a creative wayto deal with this but i haven’t read it

The lead story for two days running on mlb.com has been Old Hoss Radbourn. This cracks me up--I don't think they could have anyone else in that spot who more desperately cries out "We officially have nothing to write about."

https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/private/t_16x9/t_w2208/mlb/cffyjxiplqgfqzmwdlk3.jpg

Mind you, the exclamation points work wonders.

i suppose the way to deal the the peak year issue is to actually play younger players what they’re worth earlier in their careers wait why are you laughing

MLB Network has cut ties with insider Ken Rosenthal that is believed to be the end result of acrimony that peaked in the summer of 2020 after Rosenthal criticized commissioner Rob Manfred, The Post has learned.

https://nypost.com/2022/01/03/ken-rosenthal-out-at-mlb-network-over-rob-manfred-criticism/

Just came to post that--Trump evidently now in charge of MLB.

that is fucking pathetic

MLB is full of insecure and vindictive weasels ime

Wonder what other moves that chump would make if he had even more power.

Scherzer: Honestly, I believe that because what we’re fighting for is integrity. It’s about how the game is being played and how the rules of the game are affecting the competition of play. It’s obvious that we see teams tanking. I’m not here to sit here and say an owner is an evil person for tanking, because the strategy can work. But we feel the tanking has increased because of the rigid slot values of the draft picks. The amateur draft and the international market have incredible surplus value. That’s why the top picks are so coveted. The only way the CBA allows teams to get those players is by losing. That has become the winning strategy, yet that shouldn’t be a winning strategy in professional sports. That doesn’t sit well with players, and it affects a lot of different markets and guys’ ability to live out their dreams to play baseball. Additionally, when you have that tanking component in there, it also leads to service-time manipulation. As these teams gear up for their window, watching teams manipulate prospects’ clocks is wrong. It’s changing free agency from what it was supposed to be. Free agency’s supposed to be six years, and they’re manipulating it into seven years and that’s not OK in our book. And that’s a work stoppage issue for us. And so, like I said, all the players understand that and we’re willing to fight for that.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2022-01-03/max-scherzer-mlb-lockout-new-cba-dodgers-mets

he also alludes to "the grand bargain" falling apart i.e. underpaying young players and overpaying veterans.. now that owners are less willing to overpay veterans something needs to change on the front end

I agree with him on manipulating the clock--we saw that happen in Toronto with Vlad (and really, it was hard to argue with management, even though it was maddening to see him stuck down in Buffalo).

Is tanking that prevalent, though? I guess I just don't pay close enough attention to see it. To me, it feels like so many middle-level teams are trying to make moves at the deadline to grab a wild-card spot, at which point anything can happen.

Is tanking that prevalent, though?

yes

what did teams do up until the 90s when only four teams made the playoffs? is this new as far as overall strategy goes? i feel like tanking is not a huge issue if it's also much easier than ever to slip into the playoffs.

I remember perennial doormats being a bigger problem in the '70s and '80s--and much bigger than that, if you go back a few decades more. Honest question: how many teams haven't been competitive at all the past, say, five seasons? I can think of three or four offhand, at least a couple of which (Detroit, Pittsburgh) come out of a lengthy stretch of success.

xp in the past there were "fire sales" but i think this degree of tanking started with the cubs and astros.

i don't think it's the worst thing in the world, and i don't think lightly editing the draft process is going to fix it. you can spend money and still tank. spending money would make tanking a lot easier in some ways - we would see more trades where tanking teams take on bad contracts + prospects, we would see teams handing out riskier 1-year deals on FAs in hopes of trading them at the deadline, etc. but owners set the budgets and owners seem to really like the idea of not spending more than $40m for a few years.

i'm realizing i missed a transitional sentence there, but my point is that owners like tanking because it saves them money, not because it gets them high draft picks. if you want to force them to spend money you have to force them to spend money. kevin goldstein has said in various chats of his that one year's budget doesn't affect the next when those budgets are being set; spare money is pocketed, not banked.

I think people are exaggerating the tanking issue, it's true that the Cubs and Astros tanked and then won championships but landing high draft picks isn't enough, you have to develop those players development (which they were great at) and make plenty of other smart roster moves.

The new playoff format discourages tanking (since more teams can be in the mix) but it also discourages spending big money on free agents. The emphasis is on maximizing the number of years you get from your core young players (by manipulating their service time) and then adding spare parts midseason. There is a lot less incentive to spend money during the offseason. Last year's Braves bought low on Rosario and Soler and won the WS. That seems to happen almost every year, the eventual WS winner retools their bullpen and/or their bench with key underpaid players that fill a very specific need.

you have to develop those players development

Development is so important I had to mention it twice ...

Basically what I'm trying to say--that if a little tanking leads to the WS that the Astros and the Cubs won, I'm okay with that. I wouldn't say the Jays tanked after 2015/2016, but they did kind of write off the next few seasons as they waited for Vlad, Bichette, etc. I didn't mind.

I looked at four teams in the '70s: Cleveland, San Diego, Montreal, and the White Sox. Between them, they finished above .500 six times in 40 seasons; Cleveland won 81 twice, the Padres 84 once, the Expos 95 once ('79), and the White Sox 87 and 90. Every other season was below .500. The Cubs and Mets weren't much better.

Do decade-long stretches of futility like that happen anymore? Maybe they do and I'm oblivious (quite possible).

honestly – don't get the complaints about by-low free agents either. usually the money is far from humiliating and they're free to get a pay raise in FA the next season if they do well. and from a team perspective, why wouldn't they look for value out there, when the big name free agents become absolute dumpster fires half way into their deals (if not sooner) and it becomes embarrassing for everyone – shleping some grossly overpaid, underperforming vet onto the field every day, blocking a younger player, simply because he's got a massive contract.

xpost

to clemenza: the pirates are trying for that, it would seem!

They won 98 games as recently as 2015, but yeah, I guess they'll have to turn it around in the next three years to avoid that.

Ultimately, it all comes down to this:

he also alludes to "the grand bargain" falling apart i.e. underpaying young players and overpaying veterans...now that owners are less willing to overpay veterans something needs to change on the front end

They need to figure out that, or else go back to pretending that 30-year-olds are a great long-term investment.

(Not that they used to pretend, they actually believed that.)

i honestly don't know how you protect baseball from agreements both sides entered willingly.

Also heard MLB’s offer to players today included 14 teams in playoffs

That's arguably players' biggest bargaining chip: owners clearly want expanded playoffs.

— Ben Nicholson-Smith (@bnicholsonsmith) January 13, 2022

half the majors in the playoffs, we did it! we did it!!

lol that shit works for basketball where an 8-seed often has virtually no chance against a 1 seed but in baseball those sorts of teams win the WS pretty frequently. also seems like this would take all the drama out of the last 2 weeks of the season. I hate it so I'm sure it's gonna happen

And the PA is starting their bargaining at 12 teams. At least make them work for it jfc

you put 14 (or even 12) teams in the playoffs, suddenly clubs are aiming at 85 wins instead of 95, and free agent spending follows accordingly. also it is my understanding (could be wrong?) that postseason revenue accrues entirely to ownership -- players get paid only for regular season games.

it's an interesting ploy! everyone spends a six-month exhibition season celebrating heritage and fields of dreams and the beloved ballpark experience, then there are six weeks of games that actually matter at some multiple of the price

Players get a share of postseason gate money but none of that sweet TBS money

everyone spends a six-month exhibition season celebrating heritage and fields of dreams and the beloved ballpark experience

Don't forget the military and the end of racism.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33210033/major-league-baseball-looks-federal-mediator-help-end-sport-lockout

This sounds like a decent idea. But, like many US institutions, I’m wondering if there’s something horribly wrong with the mediation services that would make this bullshit?

it's at best a PR stunt and at worst a maneuver by the owners to claim they're at an impasse and blunt force their last offer without an agreement (like 1994)

MLB’s push for federal mediation could be ‘win-win’ PR play for owners https://t.co/GKKa4SUcg1

— Evan Drellich (@EvanDrellich) February 4, 2022

This argues for my cynical explanation that MLB was trying to speed up an argument that the parties are at impasse, so it would have additional weapons at its disposal under the law. https://t.co/Rp3XkNAfU2

— (((EugeneFreedman))) (@EugeneFreedman) February 3, 2022

this thread by freedman about it is very good - he is the best person to follow for all CBA talk imo

MLB’s push for federal mediation could be ‘win-win’ PR play for owners, source says

As one player agent surmised, Major League Baseball’s push for federal mediation in collective bargaining talks is a “win-win” for the commissioner’s office, even if MLB knows the players are unlikely to sign on for the process.

The league is positioning its move as earnest.

“What couldn’t be positive about bringing in an experienced and positive neutral mediator?” said a league source.

Others aren’t convinced.

“If union says no, they win,” the agent said. “If union says yes, they go through this process and burn a couple of weeks, and win.”

If the union says no to mediation — the most likely outcome for a few reasons — then MLB will still have at least a small feather in its cap: it can say that it attempted to use mediators, and the union would not. It’s potentially a way of positioning the players as obstructionists.

Why wouldn’t the players go through with the process? For one thing, they likely fear mediation can involve splitting the baby, to an extent. In the players’ view, the league hasn’t moved much in their direction at all. Splitting it down the middle, or even close to it, then, could inherently benefit management at a time when players are looking for significant changes.

Now, mediation is not binding, which lessens the risk for players. But there’s a PR hit for players if mediators recommend something other than what they are pursuing. And the process would take time as things start to get urgent. The passage of time, some in the industry believe, would also benefit the owners, regardless of what the mediator would recommend.

“Betting on the players getting desperate and cracking the union,” the agent said. “It’s been two months and they haven’t made any progress. They (at MLB) have zero urgency.”

Another agent, though, thinks that if the league is thinking along these lines, it’s making a poor bet.

“Why does MLB win by wasting a few weeks? They are severely underestimating the players’ resolve,” the agent said.

But another major reason players are likely to pass? The parties went through federal mediation with MLB in 1994-95 in a dramatic process, and those on the players’ side roundly ripped the process in 2019 interviews with The Athletic.

“It was a joke. It had no value,” said Don Fehr, head of the MLBPA during the 1994-95 strike. “And there were all kind of agendas at work in the mediation that had nothing to do with the agendas of the parties trying to resolve the dispute.”

Said another top lawyer at the union, Gene Orza: “They came in with what they thought was a halfway proposal, which the owners jumped all over. The owners approved the mediators’ proposal in about a minute and a half.

“The guy virtually eliminated free agency. They just didn’t know what they were doing. That was obvious. They were going to try to split a baby, as if there was one single baby that was going to be split. I went crazy when I heard from one of the mediators.”

The owners didn’t see it that way. Back then, commissioner Rob Manfred was outside counsel at MLB.

“Some historical context is kind of important: Mediators don’t ordinarily recommend solutions. They’re process people,” Manfred said. “They help the parties get through a deal. They don’t like to say, “This is what you should do.” It’s very unusual. So the fact the president asked them to make a recommendation was very unusual.

“And when the recommendation came down, we were not jumping up and down. At least my client wasn’t jumping up and down about the recommendation. We had to convince, and as a group, come to a consensus that the recommendation was acceptable to the clubs. We thought that was a very, very positive step.”

Federal mediation, back in 1994-95, eventually led to the White House getting involved, during the Bill Clinton administration. But because the players thought the mediation process was working in the owners’ favor, the White House’s involvement didn’t move the process along.

“Usually — as a matter of fact without exception, I believe, in the history of American labor relations — what happens is, if the president calls you to the White House after his mediators made a recommendation, he finds a way to make that deal happen,” Manfred said. “Obviously, we were extraordinarily disappointed with the fact that we left the White House with no deal.”

lol

Rob Manfred says a lot of the criticism/distrust of him that’s been issued publicly is “tactical.” Cites his many years making labor deals. “I’m the same person today I was in 1998 when I took that labor job (at MLB)."

— Evan Drellich (@EvanDrellich) February 10, 2022

sure

Manfred on if owning a team is lucrative:
"Historically, (the return) is below what you'd expect to get in the stock market."

— Travis Sawchik (@Travis_Sawchik) February 10, 2022

"Yes, the owners I work for are in fact morons who don't spend their money well"

Fxxx Em' all. Let it burn. I hope they don't play a single game this year.

Major League Baseball asked for the ability to eliminate hundreds of minor league playing jobs in its latest labor proposal, sources told ESPN. The league would not be allowed to implement the plan until after 2022.

Details, free and unlocked, at ESPN: https://t.co/ZkKNE7LhsG

— Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) February 15, 2022

Manfred is turning out to be a bigger sleazeball than I could have imagined.

Excellent piece: https://joeposnanski.substack.com/p/pitchers-and-catchers?r=1jtu0&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

and we fans will come back because this game has a grip on us.

*sigh*

Well, let's see what's hap -- shit.

@BNightengale
The #MLB and #MLBPA negotiating session is over after just 15 minutes.

Last chance to cancel your MLB.tv sub...

Yikes, thanks for the reminder, cancelled. The "reason" field didn't have "Manfred is an asshole" option so I had to go with "other".

Associated Press photo taken by Lynne Sladky earlier this afternoon of MLB commissioner Rob Manfred at Roger Dean Stadium, where labor talks are being held. pic.twitter.com/isAzV6P86o

— Michael Silverman (@MikeSilvermanBB) March 1, 2022

i'm a casual baseball fan, mostly just the twins but this is really sad to me

i just did a twitter poll but i started to wonder - does the average non-sports fan know the name of ANY major league baseball player? i kinda doubt it

Good question. I wonder if Derek Jeter (or maybe Ichiro) was the last time you could confidently answer "yes" to that. Mike Trout should be an easy yes, and so should Mookie Betts and Max Scherzer and Clayton Kershaw, and then there's Soto and Tatis and Guerrero and Acuna. But I'm not sure if that's the case.

Is there any way to stop baseball teams from being owned by groups that actively hate baseball?

xpost oh sorry I meant active players (I even put Jeter is retired in the question cuz I knew he'd be the one)

I've never heard of Tatis or Acuna

This shit sucks. Two shortened seasons in three years? In a sport that’s already finding itself behind the times? I used to have Brewers games on constantly. I don’t even really know who’s on the team anymore.

jacke bradley jr has gone back to boston, for one thing….

MLB took advantage of fan excitement for a new deal to push out propaganda about where the negotiations were at so that the players would look like assholes who changed their minds. https://t.co/wyEk1kujKr

— Lindsey Adler (@lindseyadler) March 2, 2022

uuuuugh

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2022/3/1/22955596/mlb-lockout-february-deadline-end-point

the owners are russia

everyone knows they're wrong, it happens anyway

this whole thing sucks, i want my baseball in April

I don't want baseball at all unless the players can hold the owners and Manfred down and beat them with socks full of soap.

fuck april, i want my spring training games right now.

Doubt I'll read any of this, sure it's largely nonsense.

https://www.mlb.com/news/featured/a-letter-to-baseball-fans

Manfred's the Mann.

impressed that many major baseball writers -- rosenthal (athletic), passan (espn), kepner (nyt) -- are straight-up blaming the owners

i'm sure buster olney and jim bowden etc. will continue to scold 'both sides' but still

Sources: As the two sides look to jump-start the CBA talks, the union has approached MLB with an offer to re-open talks on the 14-team postseason field, with the idea it can exchange this for more flexibility on the CBT numbers and other issues.

— Buster Olney (@Buster_ESPN) March 4, 2022

this was always going to happen but............kill me

i don't think there's anything that would kill my interest in this sport than 80-win teams in the playoffs. what a joke.

it's also fucking stupid for the union to say that, if they did, when the whole world knows they're already offering way more than the owners are and they shouldn't need to budge on anything else for the owners to move, and the owners are just trying to break them. i would much rather have this lockdown continue until the owners feel the heat and break than see the players agree to 14 teams, even if that means a 60 game season. fuck it.

The whole world doesn’t know tho. I saw a group of old coworkers last night and a couple were chirping about over paid ball players; and I feel like this is going to be the default assumption for a lot of regular people unfortunately.

yep. if half a season gets canceled, some fans will show up in july and boo the players, no matter what. they can't boo the owners

that's not really that important though!!

So sounds like the owners are finally agreeing to raising the payroll ceiling; which I guess might help resolve things

Two weeks of the season have been cancelled. Since the season is 186 days and one year of service time counts as 172 days, they may have to renegotiate the service time clock rules as well.

To me, both sides still look hopelessly stuck.

@jaysonst
Keep seeing/reading that Rob Manfred "canceled" another week of games last night. Wait. He didn't say that

The phrase he used was "removed from the schedule."

MLB says there's no significance to that. But I'm hearing they think they can still play 162 if they agree today

"If!"

@jonmorosi
Hot Stove could resume hours from now. We are *that* close. 👀

yeah, i was gonna say, despite MLB raising the intl draft as a major issue at the last moment, it still seems like they're more or less near agreement on almost everything

baseball

whooop. wonder what game-altering changes the players had to agree to to make this happen.

just be happy 7-inning DHs and ghost runners are done for now

i love 7 inning games, bring them on

I was legitimately shocked when I heard this on the way home. First guess, the players gave in and got screwed.

it is intriguing that the eight-player executive board unanimously voted against it but the team reps voted 26-4 for it

max scherzer can afford to miss games more easily than his peers, which is exactly what the league counted on

damn i thought it would just die already

12-team playoffs mean no more tiebreaker games and no more one-game wild card playoffs. kind of bummed about the loss of game 163 as it has led to some pretty exciting scenarios some seasons.

I don’t like it, but am curious about allowing advertising on jerseys. Is it just one patch or will be players be competitive to see how many patches they can get. Will they promoting their wife’s Etsy shop next to some crypto company etc.

ugh, i didn't see the thing about ads. i get that it's ubiquitous throughout the world, and in most of the bigger US sports as well (except the NFL, somehow). i will get used to it, and i know it's always been part of the game (as i cheer when paul dejong almost hits a home run into BIG MAC LAND in the LF upper deck at Busch Stadium, which itself named after a company/family)

if anyone wears crypto shit i hope they get beaned though

i don't think the players would have any control over what dumb ads they have to wear?!

i want a burger king logo right on the butt, B on the left, K on the right

NOT Brooklyn, BURGER KANG

burger king pants
bats with the ball
everybody's lookin at yall

can't wait for the pearl clutching when a player eventually covers up a sponsor logo for ethical reasons.

Automatic strike zone in 2023 finally

starting to have second thoughts about that. bitching about balls and strikes a pretty integral part of the experience. and do these robot umps really adjust for player height? no doubt it’s all been thought of, just maybe a little nostalgic for a simpler time..

I hear that. But sometimes the calls are just really out of whack…Ultimately it will benefit the game I hope, make things more fair for both the hitters -and- the pitchers

now that i'm thinking about it iirc the homeplate umpire can overrule the robocall, so that should provide ample opportunity for the traditional disgruntlement

Ohhhh. Well then 😊

A little nostalgic too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssx1hNSs4TI

pretty impressive to be ejected 91 times

Earl Weaver aside, I want them to get calls right. I think about the checked-swing call that ended the Giants' season last year (but that would be outside the scope of a robot ump, no? just balls and strikes?).

i'm not necessarily against robo balls & strikes, but several things worry me:

as of four or five years ago, the automatic zone was not more accurate than human umps. i'm fairly confident that, like the new ball-tracking system, it is better now. but it is also my understanding that mlb's agreement with the umpires union allowed it to unilaterally impose automatic balls/strikes if implemented by a certain date. so i hope the system is actually ready and not just being rushed in while still possible.

with framing skills moot, i'm not sure how catcher valuations will change, but i'm guessing it won't be to their advantage.

be careful what you wish for: there are pitches that are technically strikes -- e.g. something completely unhittable that nicks the zone by a millimeter -- that we've spent 150 years collectively calling balls. there are going to be some *weird* looking pitches called the opposite of what we're used to, and it's going to take time for everyone to adjust to it. fortunately baseball fans are famously accommodating of change.

the system will be easy to abuse. mlb has already shown that it's willing to change the composition of the ball mid-season; there's really nothing to stop them from tweaking the strike zone algorithm to goose preferred outcomes at any moment. you can *tell* umps to call the high strike, but they may or may not do it and they'll be blamed by the fans either way. if the computer says that pitch is a strike (or ball), well, there's no one to argue with, is there?

all that said, iirc there were few complaints when it was tested in the atlantic league a few years ago, so maybe it'll be fine

also it seems like placing cameras to study check-swings would be fairly simple, but first everyone would have to agree on what a swing actually *is*

There is a rule in golf about what constitutes a swing, is there not a parallel here?

A swing is an attempt at a pitch, that is not a bunt. That includes what is referred to as a “checked swing” or “half swing.” It is up to the judgment of the umpire(s) if the batter attempted at a pitched ball. Contrary to popular belief, a batter does not have to “break his wrist” in order to attempt at a pitch. While noting whether the swing carried the barrel of the bat past the body can aid an umpire on this call, the final decision is based on whether the batter actually attempted at the pitch.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hadn't heard of this before, but sounds a bit excessive and probably nor worth the technical difficulties.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/03/league-makes-proposals-to-mlbpa-about-sign-stealing-on-field-information.html

"One proposal involves the PitchCom system currently being tested during Spring Training games, as the league is now offering that players can continue to use the system on a voluntary basis during the regular season. PitchCom is an electronic method for a catcher to communicate signs to the pitcher — the catcher enters the desired pitch (or pickoff throw, pitchout, etc.) on a specialized wristband, while the pitcher is wearing an audio device in his hat that tells him the pitch call via an automated voice. The catcher and as many as three other fielders can also be wearing the audio device, to ensure accuracy and to make the information known around the diamond."

nonononono fuuuuuuck that

Seriously. Fuck that to hell. Why do people who hate baseball run baseball?!

Easier problem to 'fix' than trying to get people under age 40 to give a shit about baseball.

Is this really such a big deal? QB's have speakers in their helmets, does this ruin football? I'm old school when it comes to baseball traditions, but 50 on-field meetings discussions per game to discuss the signs kind of ruins baseball too.

i hate it in football too. but football has been a mechanized, militarized game for decades. offensive coordinators up in a luxury box radioing down plays. i don’t want that in baseball.

i watched a spring training game where they were testing out that tech and it seemed fine. i'm pretty sure the calls still have to come from the catcher at this point.

look if it leads to a situation where the opposing team hacks into the broadcast to confuse the pitcher then i'm all for it

Hopefully it speeds things up if they do it. Tho I am sure they will find away to make it take fucking longer

Automated voice: For the next pitch, throw a……please stand by, looking for secure WiFi connection. Your pitch is important to us. All issues will be resolved in the order they were received.

bluetooth connected

bluetooth, disconnected

i’d like buster to explain how any of this has to do with the players union or its ‘engagement’

The Orioles' '22 projected payroll is another example that NOTHING has been done to curb tanking:https://t.co/td0lJ4tZmR The only way this issue can be dealt with, in the next CBA, is if MLB and the union can repair together. Engagement required. Because this is a joke.

— Buster Olney (@Buster_ESPN) April 4, 2022

should we keep using this thread for general 2022 MLB discussion or start a new one?

new one might be fun

i don't have any clever names in mind so unless we're ok with "general 2022 MLB regular season thread" someone else can start it

Yes new one would be good. General 2022 MLB Season Chatter including additional designated hitters and ghost runners.

Also bonus wild cards

Ghost Run the WHIP

i don't really care what it's called as long as 2022 MLB is in the title somewhere for search purposes

^ new thread name. Right there.

ok I made the new thread!

Worth it for the headline:

https://www.theonion.com/rob-manfred-open-to-any-ideas-to-make-mlb-all-star-game-1849179763

Also: "there were no bad ideas...(including) letting teams start with a runner on third base during the fifth inning for no reason."

is it a widespread thing to call the extra-innings runner on second the 'manfred man' y/n

Before BWittJr, before Adalberto Mondesi (yet after BJackson), there was...

"The Mighty" Mark Quinn "The Eskimo"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EvZstgxmJs

re: mookie

yes

yeah i think it's too cute for how stupid the zombie runner is

I call it the manfred man mainly cos you can do it to the tune of macho man

i don't know about widespread, but i wouldn't think of using anything other than Manfred Mann. too perfect

ghost runner is a terrible thing to use, because anyone who ever played during recess knows the rules of a ghost runner don't apply here

lol otm

that's one of ben lindberg's hobbyhorses - the ghost runner already exists and this isn't it.

Also the runners aren’t deceased.

zombie runner is my preferred

yeah, zombie runner is what makes the most sense if you need a supernatural term

the runner that time forgot

Frankenstein’s baserunner

the Rob Zombie runner

Baseball commissioner Rob Manfred says he is getting emails from fans concerned over the sport's lack of a salary cap

gfy