ESPN "analysts": room temp IQs all around?

agreed it was pretty dumb(/smart) to do this bit when gammons wasn't on, ie when it was impossible to have any kind of actual DEBATE about what is obviously an increasingly important subject.

It's just sad to me that the most-seen "baseball show" of the week is staffed by a bunch of dumb jocks who pull their assertions out of their asses.

I almost went postal on them after some talk about players' tendencies to get hurt and their incogruous training / weight lifting regiments, and comments were made re: "Babe Ruth never pulled a hamstring" and blah blah blah but A) Gammons was there holding it down (saying that the best thing for ballplayers to do to prepare for playing ball is to play ball as much as possible) and B) Krukster & HR were 2nding that (to an extent, tho I think they were still wrong) (because I'm like that).

i was hoping doc would be a bit less...abrupt. anyway, _i_ thought he's being all huffy because the saber community has spent a lot of time and energy to get these ideas into a public forum, and just as they're finally being embraced by the mainstream, perhaps the single greatest channel through which to convey these ideas is busy confusing them with postal services. i'm more amused than angry about it, but i can certainly see how it could be maddening, especially if you've been deeply involved with the stuff for a long time, as (i think?) doc has.

JD, it's not just ESPN... most mainstream pubs I read for any baseball content have regularly featured snide asides about Beane, Moneyball, SABR, etc -- Selena Roberts in the NY Times, a dick named Jon Heyman in Newsday, lots more. It's classic "don't confuse me with evidence" shit, always caricaturing or totally misrepresenting the New Thinking.

Excellent BP (non-premium) article on The Backlash:

http://www.baseball-analysis.com/article.php?articleid=2740

And you're right, Milo; if we are just taking this silly MLB shit seriously (even for fun)... it IS HOLY WAR! Mount up, and ride toward the sound of the guns!!!

David R, I can even understand having Kruk speak on certain players' perspective stuff... he was actually funny last week on getting abused for forgetting the number of outs. ("They notice in Philly. In Seattle, they're too busy drinkin' champagne and eatin' caviar.") But having these guys bloviate on the nuts and bolts of run production shows why they were paid to play, and others were paid to think.... As a guy on the Rob Neyer board posted today, getting on base is almost always a good thing.

See the article linked above: "We're back in the schoolyard."

Dave Campbell brought this up during the Red Sox-Rangers radio broadcast last night. The stats he quoted showed that when a leadoff batter reaches 1st base, his chances of scoring are 40%. When he reaches on a walk: 40%. When he reaches on an error: 43%.

Ted Williams had a .482 LIFETIME on-base pct, but I guess to H. Reynolds he'd just be "clogging up the bases."

This line out of the article on MSN about last nights RedSox/Indians game jumped out at me and made me think of this thread.

Off-topic: HR's suits are swank.

Who would you rather pitch to?

http://tinyurl.com/2e64r

Flat Earth things that you build teams around: chemistry, "productive outs," 5-tool players (like Billy Beane)...

It's NOT MAKING OUTS that's the key skill.

I find it awfully silly for Elias to bother w/ concocting this Productive Outs stuff w/out associating it with the thing that maatters in moving runners over, i.e. whether the guy actually scores! Of the 3 criteria used to define a Productive Out:

1) a baserunner advancing with the first out of an inning
2) a pitcher sacrificing with one out
3) a baserunner driven home with the second out of an inning

only the third has anything to do w/ productivity - lord knows how many times I've seen someone bunted over to second just to watch him dawdle around 2nd for the rest of the inning as hitters flail away. If there's a way to track whether #1 and #2 lead to scoring, THEN there'd be something for Elias & HR & the YES posse to crow about. Who gives a fig if Jay Bell was a great bunter or can ground out to the right side with alarming regularity? A sac bunt's only worth a damn if Van Slyke or Bonilla drives the guy in.

Also - why the hell are Yankee announcers bitching about moneyball tactics when it's the philosophy the Yankees used to dominate the past decade?!?!

ie, making Neifi Perez sound like Tejada.

I actually used to really enjoy his work in the earliest years of his tenure, back before the stat culture wars started.

I read Kaufman's summary on Salon and was just flabbergasted.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2528809

Kaufman and I both came up with VOR re Kruk, hence KK is a genius.

lol@them!

RIP

Well, HR's butterknife insight is made for ppl who don't care about baseball.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Wf1Vg9YwBqA

Kruk's Oliver Hardy take at the mention of "WHIP" and "advanced metrics" last night was priceless.

I wonder if Steve Philips will answer my chat question?

he did NOT!

"Steve, how are the D-Backs holding onto first place without any Veteran Presence in the lineup?"

i don't know anything about baseball, but these guys make me want to bang my head on an immobile object

this is kindof a fantastic sequence all around w/ the fattey mets fan pointing out the ball being fair

i mean if i didnt have to listen to joe morgan blubbering repeat himself 7times

i like the "<player> batting .290 in 3-0 counts" thing up above the score...

"the big city" is like the political version of "big guy"

"the Mets may need to start bunting b/c Wang is ON today" lolz

when the ball is down, you actually see just as much of it as when it's up in the zone

"and the curve of the earth"

Vinaisms

"Hands back, head down, barrel out, boom. Punto with the power."

"Glove down, get the hop, hose."

"Straight back, straight thighs, force play, guy's a stud."

"Ellis -- I mean what can you say, guy's one of the most underrated players in all of baseball, wants to win for those Oakland A's, plays hard. Look at the extension."

"Eck comes to play and here's another example. Didn't get two hands on it but that's OK."

"If I'm gonna go down and get that curve, 0-2 count but I'm protecting the plate, gotta keep my head down, not pull up on it, hands back, don't get ahead of myself, maybe foul it off, prevent the strikeout, create opportunities for my team to win."

Paraphrasing Kruk a few minutes ago, over footage of Cardinals trying to win a baseball game, including Looper accepting pinch hitting role and running (instead of jogging briskly!) to first base on ground ball: "THESE CARDINALS ARE GOING TO STAY IN IT BECAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO WIN BASEBALL GAMES."

lol @ fernando vina

chris singleton continuing the trend...

"Hands back, head down . . ."

http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/06-96/06-04-96/forearm.jpg

"Sometimes sacrificing your body like that is something you have to do if you are going to compete. Get the runner, play solid defense behind your pitcher who is trying to keep your team in the game, prevent runs."

Hi guys, I am new to the baseball board but have partcipated on the music board a bit. On this topic, did anyone see earlier tonight during the angels/braves game when Joe Morgan tried to explain why mark texiera isnt hitting as well from both sides of the plate? that was completely mind-numbing. Even Jon Miller seemed a bit stunned at how little sense he was making. Vina and Singleton(and even Eric Young) are fine. But the two people who I simply cannot stand are Steve Berthiaume and Orestes Destrades. 100% cringeworthy.

I've pretty much resorted to watching ESPNEWS instead of BBTN to spare myself the "analysis"

...

Steve Phillips, Buster Olney suck at predicting:

http://vegaswatch.net/2008/09/evaluating-april-mlb-predictions-2008.html

I suck at predicting Ray Durham's performance. :(

You're still better at it than film criticism.

Who isn't?

And btw I want both McCain and Obama voters to stay home or "go elsewhere," just like the Phillies and/or Brewers. (oh, for a Mets WS trophy followed by a 269-269 electoral tie. nirvana.)

Go Cubbies, then, just for you.

i'm for Dodgers over Red Sox, but I'll take an L-series as runner-up

Want Tampa to beat basically whoever.

Do not want Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers, Mets or Cubs to win.

Last night's Baseball Tonight made me so angry.

Was Kruk praising the Twins for hitting to the score or something?

Wow, I didn't realize Steve Phillips was a midget!

Is this the first year that ESPN has put OPS on a hitter's standard stat line when they're at bat?

those were Espn dudes covering the Indy 500, right? so bad I had to turn the volume off.

yeah, though i wish they'd just show the 2 components separately since there's a pretty big difference between a .270/.320/.530 hitter and a .270/.400/.450 hitter

They probably don't want to overwhelm John Q. Fungo with two new numbers at once. (I know, the logic crumbles immediately, I just figure that's the suits' reasoning.)

oh, Orel Hershiser listing "clean players" like he knows who they are.

Memorial Day always good for carrying the jingoistic flag on bloody sportscasts. Good job, Phillips.

would you shut the fuck up plz

EASY GARDY

steve phillips is such a fucking retard

Expecting some expert two-out walk nonsense from Phillips after the break.

could you be more specific, WmC, are you defending the Clean List or God Bless American Hegemony?

I'm not defending either one. I'm just sick of your constant willingness -- your eagerness -- to define yourself by misery and hatred.

chill out, pal, it's an ESPN Hate thread.

And the NYY thread is the Yankees Hate Thread, and the Mets thread is the Mets Haters Hate Thread, and the politics threads are all Everybody and Everything Hate Threads, and film threads are all Mere Entertainment Hate Threads.

et fucking cetera, ad fucking nauseam

c'mon, ppl blow off steam. There are positive things on all those.

Speaking as a neutral non-American who never really understood the whole Memorial Day Weekend thing, at least the jingoistic stuff (and Morbs' reaction to that specific thing) is over and done with as soon as the day finishes, whereas dudes like Hershiser will be spouting blahblahblah over mythical "clean lists" every day from now until we die.

I fucking hate Rick Reilly so goddamned much.

Latest gimmick, in tonight's game -- Schulman in the booth, Phillips sitting down at field level next to the Dodgers dugout, Hershiser sitting down by the Cards dugout. WTF?

hahahaha i know, it's really random. but whatever, they can't be any worse down there.

how tall is tim kurkjian

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4267267280_616fa92900_m.jpg

yes that is "tim kurkjian height"

tim kurkjian heineken

see? i didn't want anyone to think it was that

The Giants are new analyst Morgan Ensberg's choice for fifth-best team in MLB. The Mark DeRosa acquisition was huge. His choices for third/fourth/fifth-best starting rotation were, IIRC, Phillies, Rays, Rangers.

Ravech questioned the Giants' lack of power beyond Sandoval. Ensberg's reply was something like "Yes, DeRosa makes every team better."

lol wait morgan fuckin' ensberg is on espn now??

He could be worse than Tino Martinez.

i gotta say, if you get a guy who has JUST left the game, you better make sure he's like rodney harrison and does not give a fuck.

the only ex-baseball player I've seen willing to trash guys is Mitch Williams

yeah i've only seen a bit of him but he's enjoyable.

I wonder how this shows ratings have been affected by the diehard mlb fans tuning into mlb network.

how soon before someone tries doing a show w/out ex-jocks?

What, like PTL/Around the Horn?

hahah probably not that soon.

i actually like a lot of ex-player analysts, i think they bring some great perspective. but unfortunately none of the ones i like analyze baseball.

no WmC, I meant no jocks OR shouty circus clowns.

how many shows did Nate Silver do last year?

well, say what you mean, Herr Doktor (xp)

Kurk-gem:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/images/02/11/kurkjian-ripken.jpg

"We interrupt the stretch run of this fascinating baseball season with something completely irrelevant, epically ridiculous and wildly unimportant. A most absurd streak quietly ended in 2010: For the first time since 1989, I no longer clip every box score of every baseball game from the nearest newspaper and tape each one into a spiral notebook, a daily task that I've estimated, at roughly 15 minutes per day, has cost me 40 days of my truly pathetic life."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=5420098

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0805/mlb_e_kurkjian11_600.jpg

:-(

derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

If you got a system that helps you make a living, it doesn't matter how much it makes you look like a beaten-for-lunch-money-by-Liberace victim

schilling also had a good segment about strasburg on baseball tonight last night

HEY NOMAH -- "experience" don't mean shit in the postseason

HEY KRUK, IS EVERYONE A "CLUTCH HITTER"?

i know i'm not supposed to get angered by these guys but jp riccardi saying that cc is the al cy young because he plays in a tougher division w/ tougher line ups w/ the way that felix has pitched against nyy actually makes me want to cancel my cable

was hilar to hear Nomar try to say "sabermetric"

"Cybermuh-dih-duh-duh"

CHRIS SINGLETON STOP YELLING AT US

http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/03/01/heres-j-p-arencibias-divine-tim-kurkjian-impression-with-tim-kurkjian-looking-on/

Read that URL as saying he did an impression of Divine

a sidebar on jon lester tonight caused kruk to ramble at great length about baseball and cancer, including the fact that getting those (cancer-afflicted) kids on the field to meet some players would be better than any possible treatment

i know that's not what he meant, but he is about as incoherent an analyst as i've ever heard

The return of Nate?!?

http://www.mediaite.com/online/brian-stelter-reports-nate-silver-leaving-new-york-times-to-join-keith-olbermann-at-espn/

he is about as incoherent an analyst as i've ever heard

look for his new book I Ain't an Analyst, Lady

only saw the bottom of the ninth, but espn's use of nine (or whatever) commentators apparently only meant that each had only a moment to force his chosen cliches into the mix no matter what was going on in the game

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNRD62vUsAAzIfW.png

every time i think he can't get any goddamn worse

o man

"It's said"

"true #'s"

@jazayerli
Hey @gehrig38, I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about Muslims, given that you appear grossly ignorant.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNRfWYcUwAAX46b.png

in a bold move by espn, schilling has been suspended . . . from little league ws coverage

I do agree with him that we should've murdered every German regardless of their beliefs.

this guy

http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/curt-schilling-is-now-sending-e-mails-to-writers-to-question-our-integrity.html

kruk/schilling out, jessica mendoza/aaron 'fucking' boone in on sunday nights

Aaron Boone is appearing at the SABR Analytics conference, for some reason

schilling fired

@JonHeyman
schilling is unique. i used to get letters from a relative of his about how he'd routinely ruin thanksgiving #notkidding

im so pumped right now

https://media.giphy.com/media/FVNoYaJTVY0Ja/giphy.gif

NYTimes with some great shade:

“This latest brew ha ha is beyond hilarious,” he wrote of the brouhaha.

This got me a chuckle.

"Curt Schilling Quietly Relieved He No Longer Needs To Censor Self For 3 Hours Once A Week"

http://www.theonion.com/article/curt-schilling-quietly-relieved-he-no-longer-needs-52790

https://twitter.com/PFTCommenter/status/725063488977166337

good canadian kid dan shulman will not do sunday night baseball next year

unfortunate, imo

alex rodriguez . . . welcome

now with matt vasgergian

Why?

As noted by @WayTooCrisp, this is A-Rod saying one of the dumbest things ever stated by a baseball analyst—and it's on the marquee national baseball broadcast pic.twitter.com/b7dKQU9NZX

— Timothy Burke (@bubbaprog) September 2, 2019

LOL

i'm not sure even Harold Reynolds could've come up with that

Hate to lead by 13

Drew Magary's profile of Stephen A Smith is really good

https://www.gq.com/story/stephen-a-smith-espn-profile

I reached out to Lamar Odom’s people for this story but did not get a response. I also ask Bomani Jones if the joke—which was definitely funny—was fair to Odom. “I could make the argument that if I were Lamar Odom, it is not something that I would want to hear,” says Jones. “But it is not unfair to Lamar Odom as it appears that he was, in fact, on crack.”

mendoza (likely) out on sunday night

https://nypost.com/2020/01/27/espn-moving-jessica-mendoza-out-of-sunday-night-booth-with-more-changes-possible

they should dump a-rod too, but it doesn't sound like that will happen. cone would be good

Sciambi and Mendoza were great on radio last October, that'd be ideal

but i don't watch SNB

Jessica Mendoza has resigned as a Met advisor and will no longer be on Sunday Night Baseball. She will remain on ESPN, doing weekday games, among other things.

— Andrew Marchand (@AndrewMarchand) February 7, 2020

Five-time World Series champion and Cy Young Award winner David Cone is joining the announcing booth for ESPN's Sunday Night Baseball, which will also feature a secondary broadcast led by Alex Rodriguez, the network announced Friday.

Cone will serve as an analyst alongside Karl Ravech, who will become the fourth-ever play-by-play announcer for Sunday Night Baseball. Eduardo Perez will also serve as an analyst for the ESPN broadcasts.

For eight games on ESPN2, Rodriguez will join veteran commentator Michael Kay for Sunday Night Baseball with Kay-Rod -- a broadcast similar to the ManningCasts that featured former quarterbacks Peyton and Eli Manning during Monday Night Football this season. The show will feature special guests as well as fantasy baseball and predictive elements.

Rodriguez and Kay will also serve as the primary broadcast team for two games during the 2022 season.

one of the classic Morbs thread titles

hah otm.

that's an incredible press release btw, we are recreating the manningcast with two of the most disliked people in baseball and just wanted to let everyone know

which manning is kay supposed to be, the former sports star or the other former sports star

that's not a "manningcast" it's just a pbp/color commentary booth

i have no idea how this is supposed to work but cone is Good

I think we can all agree that Ravech and Cone (or any other combination of verbal lifeforms) is an improvement over Vasgersian and A-Rod.

i still don't know how kay is allowed to speak in public he has a horrible voice

Thoughts on ESPN's top 100 players of all time list? No real surprises in the top ten, but it's cool to see so many recent players (80's, 90's 00's) in the top 25.

Didn't know about it till your post. The full list:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33145121/top-100-mlb-players-all

Not sure how much overlap with Posnanski's list...I like Mays at #1 better, though.

NTBT you cut ESPN a lot more slack than everyone else on the internet - i've seen nothing but complaints about recency bias and typical papi/jeets/mo worship

i sort of mentally threw out the list when ripken was ranked below ortiz and reduced to 2131 and "consistency" - i'm not a hardcore ripken fan (don't even really like the guy!) but it told me what i needed to know about the list

The one active player that seems like a stretch to me is Harper. Three or four more solid years, maybe, probably. But you still don't know what you'll get next year.

I haven't read the whole list yet. But I don't have a problem with recency bias. Baseball tends to exaggerate its history, and a newcomer gets the impression that the best games and players were around 50 or 100 years ago. I have no problem with people claiming that Mays or Aaron were the best ever -- but their primes were over 60 years ago. Compare that with the NBA or NFL, where there's more of a sense that today's players are the best there's ever been.

What I'm saying is that baseball's anti-recency bias is one reason for its image problem compared with other major sports and helps explain why its fanbase skews older.