Nomar to Cubs!

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I'm not sure how the Cubs pulled this off without giving up anything.

Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Really? When did this happen? I was watching the game and they were doing the Deadline Countdown and kept saying nothing was going down anywhere.

oops (Oops), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)

It was a four team deal. BoSox got Cabrera from the Expos and Mienkiwicz(sp?) from the Twins, Alex Gonzalez went to the Expos, Francis beltran went somewhere, the Twins got prospects, and the Cubs got NOMAR

Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Jim Hendry for freakin' president.

To not give up Clement is HUGE. I would've made a straight Nomar for Clement swap, so you can imagine how floored I am that Hendry was able to secure both for the rest of the season.

Cubs gave up K-Gonz (addition by subtraction), Brendan Harris, a pretty decent 25-26 y.o. utility infielder that got some time with the Cubs earlier this year, Francis Beltran, who has a 96 mph fastball and a slider that straightened out considerably in the last two months, and Justin Jones (who goes to the Twins) who is probably one of the top 5 pitching prospects in the Cubs system right now.

I'm ecstatic, I never once thought the Cubs could get Nomar and keep Clement!

mattbot (mattbot), Saturday, 31 July 2004 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

wow, i wish i hadn't gotten offline at 3:10.

John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

WAIT NO CLEMENT????

John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

the red sox also gave up matt murton, a nice corner outfield prospect. this is mind-boggling.

John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

cubs send:
bobby hill
francis beltran
justin jones

cubs get:
aramris ramirez
nomar garciaparra
kenny lofton

not bad

John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I gotta say, Clement for Dontrelle and Lee for Hee Seop ain't looking bad either.

Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

ok, i'm looking at the sox board are the key words to explain this: "achiles tendon". nomar's a complete liability in the field. i guess theo was interviewed and mentioned the defense - i checked up on that, and his ZR is .694. that's completely worthless. that's jason giambi playing shortstop worthless. then there's the chance that he'll have to go on the DL again.

orlando cabrera, though, is great with the glove, and, if performs even at his career average, considerably better on offense than reese. mienkievich can platoon with millar, come off the bench, or just start outright (especially when lowe pitches).

looking at nomar's defensive #s really chaged my thoughts on this trade. believe it or not, nomar for cabrera was probably a good swap for the sox.


John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:45 (twenty-one years ago)

well, maybe not BAD, but not GREAT, gear. both of those guys could've been had for less.

John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Possibly but I have my doubts. As far as Nomar goes it might be one of those trades that works out for all the teams involved. This makes me hope for a BoSox/Cubs series even more.

Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll swap a complete liability in the field for a complete liability at the plate any day. Plus he still has to pass a physical, right?

mattbot (mattbot), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)

The Cubs will do what they used to do and let the grass get long in the infield and wet it down like a swamp, that seems to fix a bunch of range issues. Whitey Herzog used to get angry about that back in the day.

Nomar now isn't Nomar from about four years ago, but he is still a big bat for a shortstop. Putting him in that lineup could be great. The only thing that I wonder about is that they only have one lefthanded hitter (Patterson -- Bako doesn't count).

Earl Nash (earlnash), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:32 (twenty-one years ago)

i think this is a good risk for the cubs, yeah. i mean, they gave up practically nothing and if nothing else it'll be nice pr..not that they were having trouble selling tickets.

but i'm afraid it's a safe trade for the sox, not nearly the disaster i'd initially thought. i figure that, while they're not shockingly better, they've _probably_ improved themselves overall this year (it all depends on nomar's health of course) and for the long-term, and since nomar was almost certainly demanding out, that's no small accomplishment. damn it.

John (jdahlem), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:35 (twenty-one years ago)

This team has been much better against righties this year, it defies conventional wisdom. Patterson hits lefties at a better clip, but apart from he and Lee, the Cubs are awful against lefties, something like a sub-.230 AVG against them. Nomar should help that a bit.

The key is having a guy who makes contact hitting 2nd and strikes out at about half the rate as Gonzalez. Barrett could do it, but Nomar seems a more logical fit for the lineup. Moving the K-or-HR-prone Patterson down by Barrett in the order should balance it a little better.

mattbot (mattbot), Saturday, 31 July 2004 22:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Will Carroll's take, which is pretty much mine:

The only downside to this deal is that it will take some of Maddux's spotlight tomorrow.

That said, commence your happy dance. Direct your prayers to our lord and savior, Jim Hendry, in north Chicago. Hurry to the sporting goods store to get that extra Cubs jersey lettered with "NOMAAAHHHHHHH."

The Cub Reporter and others are covering this one, but simply put, Jim Hendry robbed everyone. I'll wait to get completely obnoxious until I see the numbers, but there is simply no downside here. The Cubs gave up a potentially useful reliever (who will be replaced by Ryan Dempster), a decent prospect (at least two years away in an organization loaded with pitching prospects), and Alex Gonzalez to get a difference maker and a #1 pick. I'll take it.

Now, the Cubs SHOULD look like this tomorrow:

2B Walker (Grudz in a pseudo-platoon)
SS Nomahhhhhh
RF Sosa (I'd rather see Lee here, but Dusty won't move him)
LF Alou (I'd rather see Aramis here, but again ...)
3B Ramirez
1B Lee
CF Patterson
CA Barrett (Bako with Maddux on the hill)
SP Maddux

Whoa. That looks good. Not catch-the-Cards good, but Marlins-won-the-Series-as-wild-card good.

mattbot (mattbot), Sunday, 1 August 2004 00:28 (twenty-one years ago)

"will carroll, official baseball health guru of the world" and not one word on nomar's achilles tendon??? bastard.

John (jdahlem), Sunday, 1 August 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I say not soon enough.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Sunday, 1 August 2004 02:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Mike Lupica, four weeks ago:

"If Nomar isn't playing for somebody else by the All-Star Break, it won't be for lack of trying on the part of the people for whom he works.

If they could have traded him to the Dodgers or somebody in the 5th inning of the second Yankee-Red Sox game, you better believe they would have done it.

Manny Ramirez gets blamed for everything except Bunker Hill in Boston.

But you know something?

After the Red Sox tried to get rid of him over the winter, he just sucked it up and played as well as he ever has in his life.

Nomar?

He pouts.

When the rest of his teammates are on the top step of the dugout the other night, watching the best regular-season game they're ever going to see, Nomar sat and pouted.

He goes."

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Sunday, 1 August 2004 02:27 (twenty-one years ago)

mike lupica is a fucking moron.

John (jdahlem), Sunday, 1 August 2004 03:27 (twenty-one years ago)

The Red Sox did well. They were not going to resign Nomar and spun it out to improve their defense at ss and 1b. They will miss Nomar's bat perhaps in comparison, but they are a big bat team.

Mike Lupica is a bit of a drama queen. He alway comes off as so SHOCKED on the Sportsreporters on ESPN. Last weekend he went on this tirade about steroids and then they asked Jason Whitlock the sportswrter from KC about it and he said he didn't care either way, saying that the money is so insane many people would do the same thing in that situation. Lupica looked at him with his jaw on the floor like Whitlock had admitted membership to the Nazi Party or something.

Nomar up until the whole ARod thing happened probably figured he would stay his whole career in Boston. And then the bottom fell out. He hit shabby in the playoffs, let alone the Sox losing the way they did to the Yankees, then getting tossed out to the side during the trade rumors, having to stay in Boston as a consolation prize and then getting hurt...that is bound to take most star players down a notch. Compared to many players put in such a wack situation, he probably did worse than some but better than many others. Criminy could you imagine some of the primadonna NBA stars in a similar situation?


Earl Nash (earlnash), Sunday, 1 August 2004 05:05 (twenty-one years ago)

aww he's nervous. and he's NEVER been to Wrigley!

oops (Oops), Sunday, 1 August 2004 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

um, sorry if it looks like i snapped on tracer above. i just really hate mike lupica. and i think it's wrong to suggest any human being should act like manny ramirez in any situation. there's a reason we've got cliches like "planet manny" and "manny is manny".

John (jdahlem), Sunday, 1 August 2004 18:18 (twenty-one years ago)

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/080104/040801_nomar_dusty_hmed.hmedium.jpg

Gear! (Gear!), Sunday, 1 August 2004 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/mlb/2004/0801/photo/a_nomar_frt.jpg

Gear! (Gear!), Sunday, 1 August 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Earl, I hate to come into every thread you offer your opinion on & post the exact opposite, but I think the Red Sox pretty much gave the wild card to the AL West. If Nomar was being a lame punk re: off-season shenanigans & that damn stupid Yankee game, so be it, but I don't see how swapping his offense for a SUPPOSED defensive upgrade (biggest defensive problem I can see = middle infields (Pokey included) not being able to actually FIELD the damn ball) is going to do anything positive, except get Dan Shaugnessy to say wonderful things about how the Red Sox are now an improved team. They were 6th in the AL in runs allowed, and 2nd in runs scored - yeah, the defense bit, but it wasn't an issue (except in terms of timing; like, y'know, try fielding the ball cleanly in the latter stages of the game, y'all), and certainly not worth making this grand gesture of good will for the sake of placating blowhard know-nothing asshats that confuse chemistry w/ sociology. Reading that googly-moogly "defense team speed hi I'm Rob Dibble" nonsense Theo offered re: the trade made me die inside.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 2 August 2004 00:40 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://www.madsciencemedia.com/portfolios/bbport-images/nomar.jpg

Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 2 August 2004 01:04 (twenty-one years ago)

david, you're wrong; check nomar's zone rating. i meant the jason giambi thing literally - there have to be serious questions about whether he's even capable of fielding the position right now. epstein hinted that that was a major reason for the trade, so i'm guessing the sox think his problems in the field might be more than rehab jitters.

perhaps more importantly, the guy really, really didn't want to be there. he was supposedly going to shut it down for a month and no one believed he was coming back after the season anyway. the sox now have a shortstop for august, and a long term option in place if they want it.

reese and cabrera will be an amazing DP combo when lowe pitches.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 2 August 2004 01:52 (twenty-one years ago)

but unlike Giambi Nomar can still hit!

Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 2 August 2004 04:52 (twenty-one years ago)

John, I agree - they'll be amazing to watch when Lowe gives up gapper after gapper after gapper. If Nomah is still a Jeter-esque menace in the field on the South Side, then I'll believe it.

As for Nomah fronting on Operation: Shutdown, that's when the Sox should've brought in a "motivational speaker" to "cuff Nomah around the ears" and straighten his punk ass out.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 2 August 2004 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Boston probably needs a starting pitcher more than improving their defense, but hey they got a SS and a 1b for essentially two months without Nomar. Heck he missed the first two months of the season and the Sox got nothing but having to pay him, so I'd say think they did OK.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Monday, 2 August 2004 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)

People seem to talk about this trade as if it's a given the Cubs will win the wild card.

bnw (bnw), Monday, 2 August 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

What the Red Sox need to do = hard reboot. Dissolve the god-forsaken Nation, fire all current beat writers, level Fenway, administer behavioral treatments to any future beatwriters to forbid mentioning "The Curse" or "The Nation" or "YANKEES SUCK", erase all history of what has comebefore, change the unis & team name & location, start anew. Note: some of these steps might be redundant, but I want them to be thorough.

And BNW, as always, most of the time, OTM.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 2 August 2004 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)

http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/mlb/2004/0801/photo/a_nomar_frt.jpg http://www.prisma-online.de/image/37/mmnet_99cc5dbab837.jpeg

the good, the bad, the nomar

mookieproof (mookieproof), Monday, 2 August 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

The Cubs have a 1 in 3 chance of winning the wild card, I'd say. Even if Nomar fields like Giambi I still love this trade, and I forgot all about that outfield prospect they got from Boston too. What's the word on him?

Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 2 August 2004 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

If Nomah is still a Jeter-esque menace in the field on the South Side, then I'll believe it.

South Side?!??

oops (Oops), Monday, 2 August 2004 22:25 (twenty-one years ago)

LEARN YOUR CHICAGO BASEBALL GEOGRAPHY SON

Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

murton was my fave red sox prospect based on the very little i know about him. you can read a little about him here http://www.soxprospects.com/players/murton-matt.htm.

he was hitting .301/.372/.452 when he was traded. he's not going to be great but he's solid, and should be a starting LF for somebody in a couple years. but he doesn't have a whole lot of value to an org like the sox.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:31 (twenty-one years ago)

should add he's in high A right now

John (jdahlem), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:34 (twenty-one years ago)

OH GOD SHOOT ME NOW

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 2 August 2004 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

My work here is done.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 07:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Joe Sheehan of BP:

"....the Red Sox tried to upgrade their pitching by improving their infield defense and scoring fewer runs."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

His analysis was pretty scathing:

The Red Sox didn't have to trade Garciaparra to get Mientkiewicz. They could have had him, yesterday or today, for whatever version of Justin Jones haunts the lowest levels of their minors.

The Red Sox downgraded from Garciaparra to Orlando Cabrera, and they threw in a good hitting prospect (Matt Murton) for the privilege. That's not just a bad trade, it's an awful one.

... Focusing on unearned runs or individual incidents is a sports-radio mentality that a major-league front office has to be above. The Red Sox have been making a series of odd moves, adding brutal players like Jimmy Anderson and Ricky Gutierrez. Those decisions didn't blast a hole in the team, though. This one does.

mattbot (mattbot), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Like I said.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

seems to me he's arguing from an on-paper perspective instead of considering real-world factors that GMs have to take into perspective. and the idea that this "blasts a hole in the team" is preposterous.

like i said, maybe epstein could've dealt nomar more effectively, but until i see evidence, on the field or in writing, that nomar's tendon/attitude/defense weren't problems, the sox are NOT any worse off than before.

i've seen NO ONE, aside from gammons (who of course sided with theo), take into account nomar's health, attitude, or defense when assessing this trade. i was sure carroll would comment on it, but no such luck. so while i've got no "insider" info here, the evidence we have available pretty clearly suggests it was for those reasons that nomar was dealt. and until i see some valid counterclaims, this wasn't a bad trade for the sox.

John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Well that's just a fundamental disagreement on how to evaluate Nomar's value to the Bosox. No BP guy (and until recently, I would've mistaken Epstein for a "BP guy") would ever say that attitude and defense are reasons to jettison a player who was still producing quite capably with the bat. I mean, hell, it's mystifying to me that they replaced one disgruntled shortstop who was producing with a disgruntled shortstop who wasn't. But hey, defense wins championships in the NFL, maybe it'll work for the Sox too.

Nomar spoke out today about Bosox management if anyone's still interested in this soap opera:

"I wasn't saying much. I was really short. He was saying thank you and stuff. Then he said, `By the way, how's the Achilles'?' That's the first time he'd ever asked me about the Achilles'.

"I said, `It's great. It's fine."'

Was Garciaparra being sarcastic?

"Yeah, I was. I'd just gotten traded. He said, `What do you mean, it's great?' I said, `It bothers me, but it's fine. Yeah, it bothers me, but I'm fine.' Just like, I'm playing. I never said, `I'm sad now."'

Garciaparra said he was distressed that all of this has been raised in the aftermath.

"Stuff is coming out, they're saying stuff about my agent," he said. "It's sad. Here's the truth. Those are the facts. This is it.

"I'm not mad at them. I'm not going to rant and rave. I'm not jabbing anybody. If they don't want me, fine. They traded me. Why can't that be enough?"

mattbot (mattbot), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

The Red Sox could have just kept Nomar for the rest of the season and got nothing like when they ran Fisk and Clemens out of town.

Would that make Boston happy?

Earl Nash (earlnash), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Will Carroll talks Nomar today:

Through the tallest source I've ever used, I can say with a high degree of certainty that there was no back-channeled info, at least no more than the normal trade discussions. Medical information was exchanged, conversations were had, and in the end, two parties conducted a transaction. Garciaparra may have been miserable and isolated in Boston, but let's stick to facts. He will need occasional rest and constant treatment, neither of which will guarantee that his heel will remain usable.

mattbot (mattbot), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe Nomar exaggerated his own injury in order to get traded? "Yeah, definitely going to be missing a lot of games this season. *wink wink nudge nudge*"

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 18:27 (twenty-one years ago)

more possible insight into the nomar trade:
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=38467


and amusing commentary about the debacle at the sox board from whence the above link came:


Both sides are being immature and unprofessional, and greatly embarrassing themselves IMO.

All that was really needed was what Theo, the only mature person in all this, basically said, “a Nomar playing only 40-50 games was not as good as a Cabrera playing all of them plus Mientkiewicz and the added defense.”

Even if that were not the whole story, it, at the very least, would have hastened the transition to a Nomar-less team.

But in its place we have are very own baseball soap opera taking place, where Lucchino is playing the role of the sinister madman, Henry is the seemingly soft-spoken, rich guy, but in reality he is a conniving evil, Theo is the unsuspecting fall guy and Nomar’s the “good guy with serious mental issues.” It is quickly turning into just another episode of “As the Nation Turns.”

John (jdahlem), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 05:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Bill Simmons' take is, predictably, at least interesting: read it here.

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

amazingly, that's probably the best, most in-depth analysis of this trade i've yet seen. except nomar was an F- on defense. i've been wondering if he's been dogging it in the field, but his performance at the plate was right where you'd expect. it'll be interesting to see how he plays w/ the cubs.

also great simply for reminding me of steinbrenner's public statement after the a-rod trade. god that was funny.

John (jdahlem), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, if Simmons stopped referencing movies (no, Bill, I haven't seen _Death Wish_), eased off the simile pedal, and didn't insist on being a dick when the opportunity to take a cheap shot at statheads presented itself (especially when he's guilty of coughing up unverified stats - cf. the "saving 2-3 outs" w/ the Gold Glovers in place assertion), he'd be a great writer. Where the hell's the editor?

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 22:32 (twenty-one years ago)

the movie references and extraneous stuff are a big part of what makes him popular and will not be edited

mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

i never read the guy, i can't remember if it's him or the other funny guy (i think there are two?) that writes for kimmel and should therefore be avoided at all costs.

but EVERYONE knows "death wish", and that was a damn good article.

John (jdahlem), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 22:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I wouldn't mind the movie references so much if he could throw in a little _Barton Fink_ here & there every so often.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 23:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Simmons always reminds me of the guy who's not really funny, but every anecdote/joke/story gets a bunch of "AND THEN..." additions to top the last part. Bad college/high school newspaper column.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 5 August 2004 03:03 (twenty-one years ago)

He's pretty colorless as a writer to say the least.

Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 04:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Boy, that Simmons column was awful writing. Just awful.

Funny, I don't read him on a regular basis, but I know I've read his columns in the past and I don't remember coming away with such a poor impression. That thing was way too long. Talk about abusing word count. How about that use of "we" : "I mean, he was right. We didn't go the extra distance. We could have had A-Rod..." Is he employed by the Red Sox?

Being reminded of that Steinbrenner quote was worth it though, I admit.

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, the point is that it's supposed to be the ramblings of a disgruntled red sox fan.

i was just shocked that there was actually some substance to it.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I honestly didn't even know Simmons was a Red Sox fan. Sorry, "member of Red Sox nation". That makes me dislike him even more. I thought he was a San Franscisco guy? Or is that some other ESPN columnist? All those "page 2" dudes run together in my mind. They all write in the same stupid conversational style.

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh, it reminded me of a guy I know who writes movie and TV reviews for a website.

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 5 August 2004 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

"All those "page 2" dudes run together in my mind."

same here. i think they're all red sox fans, though.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

my god you guys are picky. he's a columnist, he writes a column, his inside references are expected and enjoyed by his audience. sorry I linked it (except for you John), go back to reading dry-as-dust wordy numbery things about VORPal blades that go snickerstat

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh, it reminded me of a guy I know who writes movie and TV reviews for a website.

Are you dissing on Leeeee?

bnw (bnw), Thursday, 5 August 2004 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

the sports guy is great u r all h8rs

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 5 August 2004 17:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Nah, I'm certainly no stat-head. Just a fan of good, tight writing. I like reading Gammons's columns, for example. Especially when he makes Little Feat references! The "sports guy" just really isn't a very good stylist, for the reasons Popshots cited.

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 17:51 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm so sick of "stylists" though! let the racehorse run!

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

The hell w/ that! Shoot the hag in the ass! ;)

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Man I hate those damn VORPers! they turn baseball into a term paper. I also don't like Simmons.

Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

ANYWAY

3 games, 3 RBIs for NG. My brain can't cope w/ the image of NG wearing blue pinstripes. Also, Dale Sveum is an asshat.

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

"Did somebody say my name???"

ihttp://www.altoonacurve.com/upload_images/Sveum-Dale(web).jpg

Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Gera, don't hate me cuz I'm beautiful...

Seriously, there's nothing dry about most of the BP guys, AND they know that Boston is worse without Nomar. And throw in the odd Fiery Furnaces reference.

Gammons has the mainstreamiest Thorogood-to-Vedder taste in rock imaginable. Hip for a guy in his mid 50s? He's no George Wendt.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Neyer. I even like the Morbster.

Dude my 58 year old banker dad has better taste than Gammons, he owns a Social Distortion CD and Nick Cave's Murder Ballads AND a Dead Can Dance CD. Gammons is all like "I luv Whiskeytown!"

Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I just love the image I have in my head of Gammons coming home after a hard day in the pressbox, pouring himself a cocktail and throwing on a copy of Waiting for Columbus.

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:26 (twenty-one years ago)

BP is to statheads as communists are to socialists

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

seriously, i'm extremely unimpressed with whatever they said about the nomar trade.

the difference b/w nomar and pokey, on defense, was one single per game. ie 162 hits over a season. you're telling me that's insignificant??

even if there was some luck/sample size/transiency to those numbers, it still doesn't take into account...well, just read the gammons article for christ's sake. or the simmons one.

if they were criticizing it on some other grounds, like theo not maximizing nomar's value (maybe separate deals for cabrera + mienkiewicz, then nomar for a SP?) that would be one thing. but they're taking some hardline "defense is oldschool BS haha stoopids" even though most of the ultrarational stathead types think otherwise. as do the a's and redsox, apparently.

who's really behind the times here?

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)

http://nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/masthead_newspaper.html

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:46 (twenty-one years ago)

ok, how long have you been saving that one

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Inspiration struck, yo.

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 5 August 2004 18:50 (twenty-one years ago)

The "one single a game" angle sounds like hyperbole, who used it?

Chris Kahrl of BP on Epstein's defensive defense:

" If the fans had wanted leather, the Sox would have been better off hosting Bondage and Dominance Night at the ballpark.

...For a massive offensive downgrade, the Red Sox pick up an OK shortstop and a powerless 30-year-old first baseman. And whatever the off-field drama involved, it's Theo's responsibility to smooth that out, not let it become tabloid fodder. And although Nomar's defensive numbers are grisly in his month-plus in the lineup, keep in mind that he didn't do a lot of rehab, so he's rusty. If the Yankees can survive with Jeter's pretty waves at passing groundballs, I fail to see how Nomar, even if he stayed this bad for the rest of the year, would have kept the Red Sox from pushing for a playoff spot. Instead, the Sox can count on Cabrera's bat to help make that happen."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)

i used it. and it's pure fact. check pokey and nomar's range factors.

it's also real easy to say shit like "whatever the off-field drama involved, it's Theo's responsibility to smooth that out" from where we're sitting, isn't it?

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:21 (twenty-one years ago)

this has to be the most overanalyzed trade ever!

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

EAST COAST BIAS

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

i just think it's funny that some people are relying on dogma and foregone conclusions, and some people are digging deep and trying to look at all the possiblities. and it's a bit surprising (to me at least) who is who.

it's that ol' "you become that which you despise" thing, ya know.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

GET ONE LIFE!

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

g!, are you saying that people should pay less attention to baseball minutia? or that they should care less about baseball trades involving very popular teams? or that they should just talk about the san francisco giants?

by the way, how come you guys still don't have a closer? I was so convinced that you'd move for jose mesa that I picked up brian meadows, only to drop his boring hold-getting ass today. wtf, how can you even try to beat s.d. or l.a. with herges?

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Dustin Hermanson is now the closer!

Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

oh THAT's what they were talking about. well, good luck with that, my father's beloved Giants, good luck. (I've picked up Christiansen in anticipation.)

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)

g!, are you saying that people should pay less attention to baseball minutia? or that they should care less about baseball trades involving very popular teams? or that they should just talk about the san francisco giants?

I am expressing my opinion that this trade is getting an unfair amount of coverage/lip-service compared to some of the other trades. My "GET ONE LIFE" is not to be read with a cold-heart.

The Giants lone trade (F-Rod for Ricky Ledee) is one that is notable if only because F-Rod's responsibility of making a few of the 6 outs required in game 6 of the 2002 world series with the Giants up 6-1 will be not be forgotten anytime soon in this corner of the world and this is the first step in healing.

by the way, how come you guys still don't have a closer? I was so convinced that you'd move for jose mesa that I picked up brian meadows, only to drop his boring hold-getting ass today. wtf, how can you even try to beat s.d. or l.a. with herges?

see above. herges is in the top 10 in the NL in Saves with a near 6.00 ERA which tells you exactly what I think of the over-importance of that stat.

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, i really don't think this trade has been overanalyzed at all. it's probably the most fascinating trade in quite awhile, and like begs said, it involved 2 of baseball's 3 most popular teams.

am i missing something, or did gygax just tell me to get a life??? i mean, i wouldn't normally have a problem w/ that, but it seems unlike you!

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

ok i just xposted that cuz i have a habit of just clicking submit right away anyway whenever that "NEW MESSAGE ALERT" thing comes up.

but i guess i'm dense because i still don't get wtf "get one life" means.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

herges is in the top 10 in the NL in Saves with a near 6.00 ERA which tells you exactly what I think of the over-importance of that stat.

Heavens! I'm guessing that the stat you mean is E.R.A., right? ;)

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

My boy F-Rod now 2-for-2 in save opportunities since coming over to the Phils!! Yay change of scenery!

Cubs about to go 4-0 with Nomar.

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Make that, 2-for-2 in hold opportunities

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Nomar is worth a win a game!

mattbot (mattbot), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

FWIW w/r/t ILX Memes:

"GET ONE LIFE" != "Get a life!"

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)

and "!=" means "does not equal," John, as long as g!-unit is slinging the slang

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:23 (twenty-one years ago)

JD, I was amazed at how doctrinaire you are on the gospel of Range Factor til I recalled you think Jeter is a Gold Glover this year.

Nomar hits, Cabrera doesn't (this year). The most relevant point.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

This is great! At this rate the Cubs will go a blistering 58-0 with Nomar!

Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post a-comin':

although I admit that I was absent on Meme Day too, so wtf does "Get one life" mean, anyway? Is it equal to "The Beatles rule and James Brown sucks"? Or is it more like "Wear golf clothes to a rave"?

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

i believe it was random googler spray from a non-english speaker.

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

morbius - i hate range factor! but it can be used to compare fielders at the same position of the same team, you see? especially when their zone ratings confirm the findings (pokey's being 200+ points higher).

when did i say jeter was a gold glover?? he currently has the highest ZR of his career, up 70 points over last year, and has maintained an ~.860 ZR all season. is that all meaningless too?

cabrera doesn't rake, but he's average with the bat. i don't believe he's a .630 OPS hitter - his 3 year road split would probably be a much better indication of his actual value.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, it was Amazing Randy.

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

haha, awesome!

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Nomar went 0-for-5 today, but I'm sure his "veteran presence" was worth a run. ... Like Matt Herges said LA would need Paul Lo Duca's heart. For a transplant?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Kit Pellow gets an inside-the-park-HR (not inside-the-park HR) off Sammy's 2B error.

Steve Stone: "That's one happy Pellow."

Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

http://espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/cards_stone.jpg

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://www.stevestone.o-f.com/ssmainlogo.jpg

Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

speaking of herges, he's in the game and pitching worse than ever (loading the bases, hitting batters, straight fat fastballs over the middle of the plate)!!!

GO GIANTS!!!

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 5 August 2004 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Steve Stone in Charter Flight Controversy!

But the players were shot down in a recent attempt to have TV broadcasters Chip Caray and Steve Stone removed from their charter flights. Upset over comments by Stone in response to Moises Alou's assertion that the two announcers were "too negative," players recently asked Cubs management to ban Caray and Stone from future flights, Cubs sources said. Management denied the request, and Stone and Caray will be allowed to fly with the team the rest of the season.

I'm not sure what the big deal is, Chip and Steve are two of the biggest homers a player could hope to have in the broadcast booth.

mattbot (mattbot), Friday, 6 August 2004 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

From the AP:

When asked to clarify Corey Patterson's cryptic comment referring to their "mutual JO'ing in the charter plane bathroom", Stone and Caray denied the assertion, looked at each other for an awkward, protracted length, and then began furiously making out."

Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 6 August 2004 03:00 (twenty-one years ago)


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