The 2006 Postseason Awards thread

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Torii "let me just dive for this rapidly-sinking baOH DAMMIT" Hunter; Derek "If I play out of position I can make myself look super-awesome with all this leaping and diving" Jeter win AL Gold Gloves

― nate p. (natepatrin), Friday, 3 November 2006 17:46 (nineteen years ago)

These awards are completely meaningless, why does anyone pay attention.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Friday, 3 November 2006 18:48 (nineteen years ago)

1) Gives bored sonsabitches like me something to grumble about until the more interesting awards come out
2) Comedy purposes

― nate p. (natepatrin), Friday, 3 November 2006 19:38 (nineteen years ago)

Gold Gloves are a measure of a player's continuing defensive reputation around the league. It's kind of like the way the same TV shows get nominated for the same Emmys year in and year out. Reputation isn't meaningless. Like All-Star Game selections, it just is what it is.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 3 November 2006 19:42 (nineteen years ago)

(Some of) Jeter's defensive #s have also improved pretty dramatically in the last three years. It's not necessarily deserved, but giving it to him again this year is far from the crime it once was.

Also has Hunter really regressed that much (one botched post-season play aside)?

The rest of the picks (except for Mark Ellis getting snubbed) looked pretty good to me. Rogers/Rodriguez/Ichiro/Chavez are guys whose reputations and stats are both pretty stellar.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 3 November 2006 19:49 (nineteen years ago)

Also has Hunter really regressed that much (one botched post-season play aside)?

There was a pretty bad period for much of the summer when he was still recovering from his tweaked ankle and had obviously lost a step or two in the outfield. There were some plays in the series at Yankee Stadium where he didn't look much like his old self at all.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Friday, 3 November 2006 19:55 (nineteen years ago)

"What about that googily looking freak over there? He's a shitshow at third."

― gear (gear), Friday, 3 November 2006 19:58 (nineteen years ago)

At least Brad Ausmus' gold glove dispels the idea that there's a correlation between offensive and defensive stats.

― Stuh-du-du-du-du-du-du-denka (jingleberries), Friday, 3 November 2006 23:05 (nineteen years ago)

Ausmus over Molina? That seems pretty suspect to me.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 3 November 2006 23:10 (nineteen years ago)

It's not a 1-1 correlation, but pop brings attention to the candidates -- see the '93 Giants when GG winners Kurt Manwaring and Robbie Thompson, who also happened to have career hitting years that year.

― c('°c) (Leee), Saturday, 4 November 2006 00:51 (nineteen years ago)

Ausmus is as bad a hitter as Molina is and isn't half the fielder at this point.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 4 November 2006 01:10 (nineteen years ago)

Even though I'm an Astro fan, I'm pretty dubious about Ausmus's getting the GG. He's still quick around the plate, fielding bunts and blocking pitches and he calls as good a game as anybody, but the guys arm is a wet noodle these days.

― boldbury (boldbury), Saturday, 4 November 2006 05:53 (nineteen years ago)

This is like paying heed to the Oscars.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 4 November 2006 15:34 (nineteen years ago)

bump.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 13 November 2006 23:15 (nineteen years ago)

Aw man, I know dupe threads get killed but there was some amusing Torre nonsense in that other one.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Monday, 13 November 2006 23:26 (nineteen years ago)

This'll p'bly look ugly:

"Joe Torre, Yankees: Despite that last statement, Torre has to be a close second. Year in and year out the Yankees spend far and away the most money on players. Thus, Torre is expected to succeed -- by the Boss, New York's demanding fans and the national media. But this year there were mitigating circumstances. You take Hideki Matsui and Gary Sheffield off the team early for almost the entire season with severe wrist injuries. You lose Robinson Cano for more than a month. You give a kid like Melky Cabrera a chance to play left field. And you patchwork right field until your general manager plucks Bobby Abreu from the Phillies. And let's not forget the starting pitching. Still, the Yankees have demolished the Red Sox this season and took their ninth consecutive AL East title. His disciples get all the credit and Torre takes most of the blame."

-- Plaxico Polanco (boompingpin...), November 13th, 2006 3:20 PM. (Andy_K) (later) (link)

What demolishing one team (that finished in 3rd, and did so thanks to no one but themselves, BTW) has to do w/ anything re: MOY beats the snot out of me.

-- David R. (quoteidio...), November 13th, 2006 3:29 PM. (popshots75`) (later) (link)

Yes but you have to consider this: "You give a kid like Melky Cabrera a chance to play left field."

-- Plaxico Polanco (boompingpin...), November 13th, 2006 3:34 PM. (Andy_K) (later) (link)

Melky Cabrera was the little teeny weeny red straw that novice drinkers actually use to sip their Bacardi & Diet Cola.

-- David R. (quoteidio...), November 13th, 2006 4:12 PM. (popshots75`) (later) (link)

Wait... 2007?

-- Plaxico Polanco (boompingpin...), November 13th, 2006 4:15 PM. (Andy_K) (later) (link)

don't look at me, i just put "Awards Season"

-- gear (speed.to.roa...), November 13th, 2006 4:16 PM. (gear) (later) (link)

STEVE SHASTA did it.

-- Alex in SF (clobberthesauru...), November 13th, 2006 4:35 PM. (Alex in SF) (later) (link)

I don't know what you guys are talking about.

-- Steve Shasta (steveshast...), November 13th, 2006 5:02 PM. (Steve Shasta) (later) (link)

THE ADMIN LOG REVEALS YOUR LIES!

-- Alex in SF (clobberthesauru...), November 13th, 2006 5:14 PM. (Alex in SF) (later) (link)

― Plaxico Polanco (Andy_K), Monday, 13 November 2006 23:41 (nineteen years ago)

Oops:

AL rookie award sure to be a close race
Johjima, Liriano headline a bumper crop of young talent

― Plaxico Polanco (Andy_K), Monday, 13 November 2006 23:43 (nineteen years ago)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20061113/capt.27c27249abda406485f197fd76c47239.dominican_republic_rookies_of_the_year_sdo102.jpg

― Pamplaxico Polancobon (Andy_K), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

No "meanwhile" shots of Verlander eating a bowl of Fruity Pebbles in his bath robe.

― Pamplaxico Polancobon (Andy_K), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 01:21 (nineteen years ago)

Close: He was washing his car.

― Pamplaxico Polancobon (Andy_K), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 13:14 (nineteen years ago)

Webb wins over Hoffman, Carpenter, and Oswalt. I can't imagine choosing Hoff over Carpenter or Oswalt. He pitched like 60 innings this year!

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 19:42 (nineteen years ago)

That is bonkers. Webb's a good choice. I wonder how many people voted before the final weekend.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

Is this the lowest starter win total in a non-strike season?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 19:46 (nineteen years ago)

Tied with Sutcliffe, who went 16-1 in 1984.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

Sutcliffe started that year in ...Cleveland?

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

Okay non-strike or trade shortened.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

takashi saito received a third place vote?

― gear (gear), Tuesday, 14 November 2006 22:46 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, Sutcliffe's AL wins don't count in that total? That's dumb.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 00:19 (nineteen years ago)

In that case, yeah: Webb is the lowest, behind Pedro in '97 and Randy Johnson in '99, with 17 each.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 00:22 (nineteen years ago)

Santana ran the board with the ESPN experts.

Wait, Sutcliffe's AL wins don't count in that total? That's dumb.

They would've if he had been on another NL team.

― Pamplaxico Polancobon (Andy_K), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 00:57 (nineteen years ago)

yes, the award is for the league, after all.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 14:14 (nineteen years ago)

Webb's win is a makeup for losing ROY to Dontrelle.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 16:29 (nineteen years ago)

except I don't think you'd catch any writers admitting they blew that one.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 17:01 (nineteen years ago)

I agree. I don't think writers have memories that are that long anyway.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

The image that accompanies this story is great.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 19:36 (nineteen years ago)

NL Manager of the year: (the unemployed) Joe Girardi
AL Manager of the year: Jim Leyland

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 19:44 (nineteen years ago)

Girardi is now gainfully employeed with the YES Network.

― Pamplaxico Polancobon (Andy_K), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

TLR is the only manager ever to win the WS and not earn a single MOY vote.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 16 November 2006 00:13 (nineteen years ago)

Santana, Wang, Halladay

How is Wang better than Halladay, how bizarre.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Thursday, 16 November 2006 19:29 (nineteen years ago)

19 WINS TO 16, DUH. These are sports writers we're talking bout, 'member.

― c('°c) (Leee), Thursday, 16 November 2006 20:16 (nineteen years ago)

Halladay IS better than Wang! They put way too much reliance on wins, apparently. the dude plays for the yankees ferchrissakes..

Wang -3.63,2CG, 76SO,1.31WHIP,1.46k/bb,wpct.760
Halladay -3.19,4CG,132SO,1.10WHIP,3.88k/bb,wpct.762 (roughly same IP)

― francisf (aaron ef.), Friday, 17 November 2006 14:57 (nineteen years ago)

Only 76 Ks? Dude's gonna get burned in a Derek Lowe stylee if he keeps that slap up (esp. w/ that defense behind him).

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 17 November 2006 15:49 (nineteen years ago)

Santana is lucky he didn't have a buncha no-decisions.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 17 November 2006 18:00 (nineteen years ago)

Yankee wins are a lot more important than Blue Jay wins DUH

Actually I really like Chien-Ming Wang and I laff at number-heads who call him a bad pitcher when really they are just mad at dad-stat-rock sportswriters. This is me: "Ha ha ha."

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 17 November 2006 19:04 (nineteen years ago)

Wang is forever throwing routine ground balls, yes.

― Pamplaxico Polancobon (Andy_K), Friday, 17 November 2006 19:16 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think anyone believes Wang is a bad pitcher, but it's hard to believe that he can continue his current stellar numbers with so many balls hit in play.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Friday, 17 November 2006 19:50 (nineteen years ago)

See: CARLOS SILVA

― nate p. (natepatrin), Friday, 17 November 2006 20:04 (nineteen years ago)

Wang had a fine year... and let's see him do it again.

The writers getting the 1-2-3 pitchers as 1-3-2 is a lot better than they usually do.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 17 November 2006 20:17 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not implying Wang sucks, but it's glaringly obvious that no matter how many GO's one gets, it's always better to strike dudes out and get the grounders the rest of the time.

― francisf (aaron ef.), Friday, 17 November 2006 21:28 (nineteen years ago)

NO WAI. Ground-outs are more efficient! One pitch and BAM! Whereas you have to throw THREE pitches at a MINIMUM to stike someone OUT.

― c('°c) (Leee), Friday, 17 November 2006 22:30 (nineteen years ago)

That should be sophisticatedBT.com obviously, I don't have ESPN.

― c('°c) (Leee), Friday, 17 November 2006 22:33 (nineteen years ago)

Strikeouts are fascist.

― Bill "Spaceman" Lee (Steve Shasta), Friday, 17 November 2006 22:37 (nineteen years ago)

Strikeouts make the defense complacent

― Pamplaxico Polancobon (Andy_K), Friday, 17 November 2006 23:52 (nineteen years ago)

But I thought a ground out was as good as a home run.

― boldbury (boldbury), Saturday, 18 November 2006 04:52 (nineteen years ago)

Wang was pretty good at the end of 2005, Morbs, betta recognize!

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Saturday, 18 November 2006 14:17 (nineteen years ago)

unless I just totally made that up, which might be true

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Saturday, 18 November 2006 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

Ryan Howard wins.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 20 November 2006 19:35 (nineteen years ago)

i have to say, i'm surprised.

― jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Monday, 20 November 2006 19:36 (nineteen years ago)

A VOTE FOR HOWARD IS A VOTE FOR BASEBALL

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 20 November 2006 19:37 (nineteen years ago)

not a bad pick, i suppose

― gear (gear), Monday, 20 November 2006 19:39 (nineteen years ago)

Wow, all those SI covers didn't pay off for Pujols!

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 20 November 2006 19:40 (nineteen years ago)

careful your schadenfreude is showing

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Monday, 20 November 2006 20:37 (nineteen years ago)

Easy tiger, I gave him a 1st vote in the Internet Baseball Awards.

Allow me to be skeptical for a moment.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Monday, 20 November 2006 20:46 (nineteen years ago)

Howard is a bad pick esp if you've been kvelling in yr hack column about how the Home Run isn't "pure baseball" for 3 years.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 20 November 2006 21:00 (nineteen years ago)

haha, you know i kid you steve shasta

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Monday, 20 November 2006 21:08 (nineteen years ago)

whoever gave Wright a 3rd-place vote must be more in love than I am

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 20 November 2006 21:09 (nineteen years ago)

How anyone can pick Wright over Beltran this year is beyond me.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 00:26 (nineteen years ago)

ALL HAIL CAPTAIN INTANGIBLES

― g00blar (gooblar), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 15:32 (nineteen years ago)

this was one of his 2 best tangible years

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 15:59 (nineteen years ago)

Do you guys know something that the rest of us don't?

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 16:09 (nineteen years ago)

morneau wins al mvp

― maura (maura), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:03 (nineteen years ago)

hahahahaha

blame canada

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:07 (nineteen years ago)

estupido

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:07 (nineteen years ago)

dumb dumb dumb

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:10 (nineteen years ago)

Mauer SIXTH

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:13 (nineteen years ago)

This was sort of predictable ... very similar to 1999, another year in which the race was wide open and a fringe candidate snuck through for the win.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:17 (nineteen years ago)

and Big Hurt 4th! I guess Most Valuable Surprise is what they voted for. I hate to think where Sizemore finished (not in top 7).

I'm convinced there's now a large minority of "take this, analysis fags" voters.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

OH CAPTAIN MY CAPTAIN ; (

― gear (gear), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

Nah Rodriguez was a good candidate in '99 if you were going to refuse to vote for Martinez. The problem is that Martinez was SO far and away the best candidate there and everyone else was kind of bunched together.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:24 (nineteen years ago)

Poor, poor Jeter

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:30 (nineteen years ago)

i don't think there's an anti-analysis bunch, but there might just be an anti-jeter bunch.

― gear (gear), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:32 (nineteen years ago)

Reliving 1999:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1999_t.shtml

Manny, Pedro, Nomar, Jeter all had better years than Pudge (who had a fantastic season nonetheless). And it's not true that Pedro was an obvious choice -- the indefensible part was it the fact that some voters left him off their ballots (because they didn't believe in pitchers winning MVPs, or even pitchers as viable candidates).

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:37 (nineteen years ago)

Part of me's all "c'mon, Mauer > Morneau; hanging out with Joe all the time even made Justin a better hitter," but part of me is also "HA HA WHAT THE HELL THIS IS CRAZY AWESOME."

― nate p. (natepatrin), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:49 (nineteen years ago)

Oh man I almost want to DVR baseball tonight just to watch Kruk go nanners.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:53 (nineteen years ago)

(too giddy with disbelief to capitalize Baseball Tonight)

― nate p. (natepatrin), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:54 (nineteen years ago)

bbtn is on tonight?

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:54 (nineteen years ago)

OK, SportsCenter, whatever outlet gives me the best chance to watch Krukker sputtering in outrage

― nate p. (natepatrin), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 19:56 (nineteen years ago)

sportswriters = an easier gig than the post office

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 20:00 (nineteen years ago)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20061121/capt.97a06c9cbce7407aa1c29da5309836a8.al_mvp_ny114.jpg

EMO

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:10 (nineteen years ago)

DIDNT YOU PEOPLE EVER HEAR OF SHUTTING THE GOD DAMNED DOOR

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:13 (nineteen years ago)

I'm convinced there's now a large minority of "take this, analysis fags" voters.

Which is bizarre, since this is the year that the analysis fags and regular joes seemed to agree that Jeter had the best season, or in the very least that Mauer's batting average and defense outweighed the glorified DHery of Morneau.

If you're the type of voter who votes based on tools and clutch, how do vote against Jeter or Mauer? If you vote based on 5x5 stats, how do you vote for Morneau over Hafner or Ortiz? I mean, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:15 (nineteen years ago)

"Manny, Pedro, Nomar, Jeter all had better years than Pudge (who had a fantastic season nonetheless). And it's not true that Pedro was an obvious choice -- the indefensible part was it the fact that some voters left him off their ballots (because they didn't believe in pitchers winning MVPs, or even pitchers as viable candidates)."

I checked BP and the WARP1 on all those players (other than Pedro) was within about a point with Jeter and Pudge tied at 8.8, Nomar at 9.1, Manny at 9.3 and Roberto Alomar at 9.9 (Pedro topped out at 13.4). That's a pretty close and Pudge as you said did have a fantastic year. Obv Pedro should have gotten it, but if he wasn't going to get it, Pudge is not a bad candidate at all, just one of many good candidates. And that vote was a far cry from this year with Morneau at 7.3 and everyone else who deserved the award 2-3 points ahead of him. Morneau was just a bad bad pick.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:19 (nineteen years ago)

You know who else is from British Columbia? Steve Nash!

― nate p. (natepatrin), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:25 (nineteen years ago)

Including the NHL that's three canuk MVPs in professional sports in 2006!

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:42 (nineteen years ago)

And no, the cfl does not count, Barry.

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:59 (nineteen years ago)

poor justin morneau, he had a really good season but now he's gonna catch flak headed his way because sportswriters are dumb.

― gear (gear), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:09 (nineteen years ago)

He was arguably the best hitter in baseball from June onwards, and his overall numbers were skewed a bit by a totally horseshit March/April where he looked to be more Kevin Maas than Harmon Killebrew. I also think it's interesting (though not a sure MVP indicator) that when pitchers started to figure out his HR tendencies he adjusted instead of panicking and going for the swing-for-the-fences mentality that doomed him in '05. And he managed to maintain a pretty high average -- only 2 HR in Sept. but still hitting .348.

Dude cannot run though.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:22 (nineteen years ago)

he had 11 hr and 57 RBI after the break, so i think his super-torrid May/June got him this award.

― gear (gear), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:28 (nineteen years ago)

he had 11 hr and 57 RBI after the break

And hit .342.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:35 (nineteen years ago)

(same as Jeter, only with a marginally better OPS)

― nate p. (natepatrin), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:36 (nineteen years ago)

Dayne Perry not happy:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6195344

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:23 (nineteen years ago)

yes BUT as the argument might go he won the award not for his average but for the HR and RBI he collected in those two months. i wouldn't have voted him as the #1 (jeter, ortiz, dye, mauer, santana, thome, sizemore, thomas would have been either ahead of him or in close competition) but then again i can't get too annoyed about it because he's sort of this heretofore relatively unknown player and i like it when those dudes sneak up out of nowhere and steal some hardware from a yankee.

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:31 (nineteen years ago)

and hafner, too! forgot about him.

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 01:24 (nineteen years ago)

according to keith law's column, one sportswriter gave a.j. pierzynski a 10th place vote and five didn't even place mauer in the top ten.

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 02:02 (nineteen years ago)

Also according to Keith Law's column, Mauer won a Gold Glove this year.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 02:17 (nineteen years ago)

This is actually kind of frustrating the more I think about it -- most people are going to point to VORP or WARP or BLURP, griping about how he's an "average first baseman" without taking into account his performance after April ended and ignoring what a monster he was during the crucial pennant-drive months, and instead of a player who came back from an awful year to become a potential 21st Century Killebrew he's going to be singled out as Worst MVP Ever. I wonder if people bitched this much in '95 when Mo Vaughn won.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 02:33 (nineteen years ago)

Anyhow here's 10 MVP choices worse than Morneau, in chronological order (and who, hindsight notwithstanding, probably should've won):

McCormick '40 (Johnny Mize)
Elliott '47 (Mize; Ralph Kiner)
Berra '55 (Al Kaline; Ted Williams; Mickey Mantle)
Jensen '58 (Mantle, Rocky Colavito; Ted Williams)
Versalles '65 (Tony Oliva)
Garvey '74 (Lou Brock)
Baylor '79 (Fred Lynn; Jim Rice; Bobby Grich)
Dawson '87 (Jack Clark; Ozzie Smith)
Larkin '95 (Greg Maddux)
Vaughn '95 (Edgar Martinez; Albert Belle*)

*though I guess being a douche kind of has its consequences

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 03:03 (nineteen years ago)

Nate, you can't give him credit for taking the lead during those crucial pennant-drive months, without docking his shitty performance out of the gate by the exact same amount. If he hadn't blown for two months, maybe they would have been above .500 to start with, and not have been in a tight race to start with?

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 03:22 (nineteen years ago)

Hey, you know who else was shitty in the first month or so of 2006? Rondell White! Juan Castro! Tony Batista! This guy! Now yeah there were a lot of things that had to click along with Morneau to get the Twins rolling -- Liriano, Punto, Bartlett, White no longer sucking after the All-Star Break -- but Morneau had a lot more to do with their mid-late season success than their early-season failure.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 03:46 (nineteen years ago)

(actually scratch that "this guy" bit; Santana stopped sucking by his fourth start.)

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 03:50 (nineteen years ago)

Personally I think all future MVP criteria should weigh heavily on how much the contribution of any given player can counterbalance the effect of having Carlos Silva in your rotation. Call it CVACS (Compensating Value Against Carlos Silva) or something.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 03:52 (nineteen years ago)

Where did you get these, Nate? It's like you picked them at random.

McCormick '40 (Johnny Mize) WARP1 10.1 vs. WARP1 10.0 so this is bullshit.
Elliott '47 (Mize; Ralph Kiner) WARP1 10.3 vs. WARP1 9.2 vs. WARP1 11.0 BUT Kiner played for a really really really shitty Pitt team so I think this is fair-ish.
Berra '55 (Al Kaline; Ted Williams; Mickey Mantle) this is definitely worse, yes.
Jensen '58 (Mantle, Rocky Colavito; Ted Williams) Mantle def. should have won, but if you were insane and didn't pick him Jensen is as good a choice as any of the other three.
Versalles '65 (Tony Oliva) WARP1 10.5 vs. WARP1 9.4 so more bullshit.
Garvey '74 (Lou Brock) HAHA WARP1 9.5 vs. WARP1 6.5!
Baylor '79 (Fred Lynn; Jim Rice; Bobby Grich) this is pretty comparable to this years vote.
Dawson '87 (Jack Clark; Ozzie Smith) yes, Smith should have one. One of the weirder votes definitely.
Larkin '95 (Greg Maddux) Another terrible vote, but EVEN Larkin had a higher WARP1 than Morneau.
Vaughn '95 (Edgar Martinez; Albert Belle*) definitely the worse MVP ever.

I see two votes that are clearly worse (AL 58 and 95) and three that are probably comparable (NL 87 and 95 and AL 79.) The rest by at least ONE statistical metric are at least fair and in most cases the right guy actually WON. And Morneau 06 is easily one of the ten worst MVP votes ever, Nate, by any rational standard.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 04:54 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry three are clearly worse (AL 55, 58 and 95.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 04:55 (nineteen years ago)

A "worst MVP" discussion w/out Terry Pendleton is no discussion @ all.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 05:26 (nineteen years ago)

McCormick '40 (Johnny Mize) WARP1 10.1 vs. WARP1 10.0 so this is bullshit.

OK I am going to express my ignorance here by admitting I do not know what WARP1 is but if it means that a dude who hits .309/.367/.482 is equal to or better than a dude who hits .314/.404/.636 regardless of his team's standings then maybe perhaps that particular sabermetric doohickey is slightly flawed

Versalles '65 (Tony Oliva) WARP1 10.5 vs. WARP1 9.4 so more bullshit.

According to Bill James Versalles has the fewest win shares of any MVP but if you think a .950-fielding shortstop with 122 strikeouts and an OBP Ozzie Guillen would laugh at is more deserving of an MVP award than a .321-hitting doubles machine then yeah, rock rock on.

Garvey '74 (Lou Brock) HAHA

Yeah HAHA SINGLE SEASON SB RECORD though I'm sure Garvey could probably swipe a bag or two more if his OBP was better than .342. (Snark aside though, this is probably my goofiest example)

Baylor '79 (Fred Lynn; Jim Rice; Bobby Grich) this is pretty comparable to this years vote.

Not really; Lynn and Rice both had Triple Crown-worthy numbers; Grich hit 30 HR at second base and had an OPS about equal to Baylor; in that crowd Baylor makes '06 Morneau look like '05 Pujols.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 05:32 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno about Pendleton; I gave him the NL Champion benefit of the doubt and he must've led the league in something -- oh yeah, batting average and total bases, that's it. Who'd be a better candidate? Will Clark? HoJo?!

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 05:36 (nineteen years ago)

DICK ALERT

And, hey, Nate, I know it's a rarity in Twinkie Town, but 1B are SUPPOSED to hit 30+ homers a year. (Don't tell Baltimore that, tho.)

DICK ALERT OVER

The "oh, but he was MONEY after sucking for 2+ months" is the same sort of logic that fueled Jayson Stark's SHANNON FOR MVP campaign a few years ago. Morneau had a nice year, no doubt, but Santana was a LOT more important to the team, and Mauer had an undeniably great year at a more demanding defensive position (which he played well). If the "key to playof drive" card gets played, then Jeter's great all-around year (in the face of flux, injury, shitty pitching, and A-Rod "sucking") has to be considered equal to, if not superior to, Morneau's. And if the sexxy counting stats angle is going to be protracted, then Travis Hafner should've won it going away. Oh, but he was saddled w/ a piss-poor pitching staff and his team was out of contention despite his efforts, and he's only a DH, so I guess he doesn't qualify.

FWIW - I'm only bitchy because I hate most of the mouthbreaters in the BBWAA.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 05:36 (nineteen years ago)

FWIW, I'm only bitchy because this is the first MVP the Twins have won since I was a month old and it's being puked on by pretty much everyone, and if there's one thing baseball writers are worse with than awards voting (including the Hall of Fame, word to Buck and Bert), it's propagating player-hating, and I figure that's going to be both a psychological headfuck for Justin and a "robbed!" story in the making that overshadows a great performance. How many people even give a shit how good Ordinary People is nowadays?

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 05:50 (nineteen years ago)

I'm just bitchy because Mauer helped win me $950. He deserves a little credit from someone, 'cuz I'm not cutting him in.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 05:57 (nineteen years ago)

All of this kind of overshadows the fact that despite my giving Morneau a whole lotta credit for the Twins' resurgence I do agree that Morneau as MVP is kind of weird and that Santana and Mauer and fine let's say Jeter were more valuable. But it's just not a WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE travesty to me (like Zoilo Versalles! Christ, WARP in action looks about as useful as wins for pitchers, and Morneau >>>>>>>> Colon).

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 05:57 (nineteen years ago)

Oh, and I didn't go far back enough to find maybe the most what-the-shit MVP vote ever: 1925, Roger Peckinpaugh over Al Simmons!

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 06:08 (nineteen years ago)

Who the fuck is Justin Morneau? I refuse to believe this is even a real person.

― SCOTTIE PIPPEN'S WEDDING (Adrian Langston), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 06:27 (nineteen years ago)

Or Joe Gordon over Ted Williams in '42

xp hello Jeff Brantley

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 06:29 (nineteen years ago)

No, Nate that sabermetric doohickey accounts for defense and park adjustments which is why Mize and McCormick are comparable and Versalles >>> Oliva and Lou Brock was a no power LEFT FIELDER who got caught stealing 33 TIMES and deserved a spanking basically and there were 2 or 3 players more deserving than Baylor OTOH there are maybe about ten more deserving than Morneau and two are on HIS own team.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 07:00 (nineteen years ago)

1) Zoilo and Oliva played in the same park, and Zoilo's fielding percentage was .950
2) Was McCormick that superior a fielder to Mize that it made up for a .150 difference in slugging percentage? Was Sportsman's Park any more hitter-friendly than Crosley Field?
3) OK, let's see: Santana, Mauer, Jeter... Ortiz? Guillen?
4) I pretty much went right out and said how goofy my opinion is on the '74 NL so STOP YELLING
5) Where do you stand on DiMaggio vs. Williams '47? Just so I know how WARPed yr outlook is.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 07:27 (nineteen years ago)

According to BP's numbers, McCormick was 20 runs better per 100 games compared to Mize, defensively. That (mostly, McCormick still down by .3) makes up for a rather, uh, large difference in hitting.

No one's advanced fielding numbers from that far back in the past are completely reliable (many of them can't agree on Jeter's ability five or six years ago, before The Fielding Bible, much less 1940), so I'd err on the side of the guy who could slug the shit out of the ball myself.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 07:52 (nineteen years ago)

Alex shouldn't even deign to answer the 1947 question.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 07:54 (nineteen years ago)

post-barry, a .500 OBP might not sound that exciting, but for God's sake man, etc.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 07:55 (nineteen years ago)

Meanwhile here is my list of hitters who I can accept are technically better than Morneau (excluding DHs, because if '05 Ortiz can't win MVP then no DH can, and wouldn't it be nice if writers were all bonkers enough to consider pitchers for the MVP, but let's just safely assume they're dolts in this scenario):
-Mauer
-Jeter
-Guerrero
-Ramirez

I mean it's kind of stupid and unfair that writers gravitate away from whimsical acronyms and towards dudes that (a) hit mad home runs/RBIs, (b) play a field position and (c) reach the postseason, even if their team gets spanked (not like Morneau's largely to blame; dude hit .417 and slugged a thousand in the ALDS) but Morneau winning isn't a frogs-kissing-pigs level of confusing.

And for fun, my list of dudes who I can accept are technically better than Mauer:
Jesus
Mohammed
Buddha (if dude learns how to hit to the opposite field)
Vishnu

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 07:56 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno, this debate is kind of a "Santa Claus is actually your dad in conjunction with Toys 'R' Us" experience for me here.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 07:58 (nineteen years ago)

Ted Williams should have won another two or three MVP awards (at least). Definitely '42 and '47.

Morneau had more than just two great months ... I think an argument can be made that he was the best hitter in the AL from June onward (or at least in the top three). Of course one shouldn't just discount his crappy months, but whatever, the writers have obviously given him central credit for the Twins' turnaround (i.e. the Shannon Stewart effect). The thing is, Morneau had a breakout year and was legitimately outstanding for the last four months. Stewart2003 performed marginally above his career rates and wasn't that great at all. So Morneau's months-long hot streak actually means something.

My point is that if you're going to hand someone the MVP for getting hot down the stretch (hey, does anyone have Chipper Jones' month-by-month splits for 1999?) then Morneau is a reasonable choice. The problem is that handing someone an award for four months of great work (even though better players put in six months of great work) is silly.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 09:45 (nineteen years ago)

i'm in the morneau camp. fuck the haters.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 10:36 (nineteen years ago)

Meanwhile here is my list of hitters who I can accept are technically better than Morneau

Could someone please look at Grady Sizemore's stats for this year? I mean, the dude deserves to be in the discussion.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

Could someone please look at Grady Sizemore's stats for this year?

+: excellent defense, good XBH capability, some speed, scored a shitload of runs
-: .290/.375/.533 good but not amazing line; 153 strikeouts?!

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:35 (nineteen years ago)

Oh and like a knucklehead I forgot Dye in my list, but enh

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:35 (nineteen years ago)

Holy crap, check out Sizemore's splits:
vRHP: .329/.416/.586
vLHP: .214/.290/.427

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

Huh, hadn't noticed those splits! Crazy!

Still, his total stats compare very well to just about anyone, and unlike Jeter, he's inarguably a great defensive player. I'm not saying he's the best, and those L/R splits are troubling, but you can make a case for him.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

Great, a sports writer comes around to defending Morneau, and it's Jim Caple.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:54 (nineteen years ago)

travis hafner was much, much better.

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

but grady gets the ladies

― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

DHs aren't real baseball players, goofball

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 18:43 (nineteen years ago)

(obv. I am both joshing and bitter at the fact that the Twins had Jason Tyner as a DH at some point)

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 18:45 (nineteen years ago)

"at some point" = the last 2 months of the season!?!

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 18:49 (nineteen years ago)

Including two games of the ALDS! Seriously a dude who has never hit a home run ever as your DH even for a week is kind of rofflicious.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 18:57 (nineteen years ago)

I think the DH position was cursed for the Twins this year. DH Rondell = super-deluxe awful; OF Rondell = actually productive. Also in the DH spot: Jason Kubel and His Inflatable Knees; Phil Nevin (!); 27 year-old rookie Josh Rabe; Ruben Sierra for like a week and then he gets injured; a bunch of utility dudes and occasionally a crouch-fatigued Joe Mauer filling in the rest of the time.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:03 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222006/img/front112206.jpg

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:07 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, the Tigers aren't yokels

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:10 (nineteen years ago)

EAT IT POST

http://www.nydailynews.com/ips_rich_content/575-BACK_LARGE.jpg

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, when you're on the same side as Lupica, you better make sure you're not standing on a land mine.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:24 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, when you're on the same side as the New York Post, etc. etc.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:26 (nineteen years ago)

FUN FACT:

Do you know the two 2006 MVPs combined made less than 800k?

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:46 (nineteen years ago)

Morneau's trophy should have one of those "THE NICE PRICE" CD stickers on it.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I'm only really accepting this because Morneau's a Twin. I think once I sober up I'm going to wonder why in the everlasting fuck Mauer didn't win this in a cakewalk.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:51 (nineteen years ago)

RC/27 numbers are interesting:

Jeter: 7.58
Mauer: 8.23
WORST MVP EVAR: 7.92

Also Range Factor above league average:
Jeter: -0.05
Mauer: 1.26
SERIOUSLY IF I WORE A MONOCLE IT WOULD BE POPPING OUT RIGHT NOW: 1.2

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 20:06 (nineteen years ago)

Meanwhile, The Holiday Inn Vertically Challenged White Man Awards.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 20:22 (nineteen years ago)

PUNTO WAS ROBBED
DAMN IT

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 20:33 (nineteen years ago)

Range Factor is widely considered to be worthless.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 22:03 (nineteen years ago)

Alright

FRAR (Fielding Runs Above Replacement):
Mauer: 30
Jeter: 30
Morneau: 16

EQA (Equivalent Average - basically an adjusted OPS presented in % format like a batting average):

Mauer: .313
Jeter: .309
Morneau: .300

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe the travesty isn't Morneau placing first, it's Mauer placing SIXTH. Dude >= Jeter and got turded on.

I read somewhere that if the crazypants that put Jeter 6th on his ballot had Jeter-Morneau as 1-2 instead the MVP would've been a tie a'la Stargell/Hernandez. Which would've made a bit more sense actually.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 23:07 (nineteen years ago)

But hey how about K-Rod beating Nathan for the Rolaids award? CRAZINESS

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 23:10 (nineteen years ago)

K-Rod WXRL 7.301 vs. Joe Nathan WXRL 6.580 so NOT CRAZINESS.

― I love these ACRONYMS! (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 23:27 (nineteen years ago)

WXRL sounds like the shittiest radio station ever but I guess you can't argue with higher WHIP and worse K:BB ratio.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 23:36 (nineteen years ago)

Joe Nathan ARP 26.2 vs. K-Rod 23.9 though so PERHAPS CRAZINESS.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 November 2006 01:54 (nineteen years ago)

Not that any of this matters cuz isn't the Rolaids Relief Award based solely on saves (aka the lamest stat ever)?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 November 2006 01:57 (nineteen years ago)

I thought it was some W-L/saves formula.

i'm in the morneau camp. fuck the haters.
-- hstencil (hstenc!...), November 21st, 2006.

Who's posting under stenc's name these days?

Joe Sheehan thoroughly OTM on both MVP mistakes, with this crucial: "RBIs are a proxy for power and the OBP of the guys in front of you, and they do not, they have never, reflected specific skill beyond those figures. They're an accounting tool. So Ryan Howard and Justin Morneau can raise a glass to Harry Chadwick, because only in a world in which RBIs are tracked would anyone have alighted on them as the most valuable anything."

I still think Ordinary People is better than Raging Bull, btw. (I don't give a fuck about human monsters unless they're played by Mary Tyler Moore)

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 November 2006 13:44 (nineteen years ago)

I still think that the voters didn't pick Morneau based on his counting stats (which were not the best in the league). It's all part of the annual redefintion of "MVP" -- one year it's the guy with the best stats, the next year it's the guy who had a great year for a contending team, and this year it's the guy who "led" his team from a sub-.500 record in May to a division title. They voted for the story, not for the best player with the most impressive numbers. And since there had to be a "reason" for the Twins' success, somebody had to be assigned the primary credit for it.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 November 2006 13:57 (nineteen years ago)

And they didn't get THAT right, either.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Thursday, 23 November 2006 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

What I don't get is this "he's the third-most valuable Twin" argument -- you can talk about the theoreticals that would happen if Santana or Mauer vanished off the face of the earth at the onset of the '06 season, but all three players had roles so different (ace pitcher; contact-hitting/walk-drawing catalyst; power hitter with good average) and filled those roles so well that they all largely were dependent on each other for the team's success.

My feelings, after sleeping on it, are:

1) Morneau as MVP is kinda goofy but not "Gold Glove winner Derek Jeter" goofy (equivalent to that: Raul Ibanez winning MVP) and nothing to get an ulcer over
2) Nonetheless renegotiating his contract is gonna suuuuck now
3) Jeter wasn't robbed, Mauer was

― nate p. (natepatrin), Thursday, 23 November 2006 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

They were both robbed. Jeter was probably slightly more robbed, I would have been okay with Mauer getting it.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 November 2006 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

well sure the 3 Twins have different roles, but it seems incontrovertible that a catcher who creates runs at the rate Mauer does is more valuable than a 1b who does it at Morneau's.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 November 2006 16:47 (nineteen years ago)

I know most of my arguments are kind of ridiculous, actually, and to be honest a lot of my Morneau defending is based largely on this:

http://www.freewebs.com/egautographs/DOUGMIENTKIEWICZ.jpg
http://www.baseballcardproject.com/Bowman/R/1992/360.jpg

― nate p. (natepatrin), Thursday, 23 November 2006 17:33 (nineteen years ago)

(To me having a Twins first baseman that can hit for power and average feels even more amazing than damn near anything)

― nate p. (natepatrin), Thursday, 23 November 2006 17:36 (nineteen years ago)

Who's posting under stenc's name these days?

nobody. i just hate the post-vote hemming and hawing. a little analysis is good, but do i really want to know what the baseball writers think? nope, not really.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 23 November 2006 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

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